*Elimination of iconic spells, traditional class features, and whole classes in the name of balance. Try playing an enchanter or necromancer or a witch with a familiar. Sorcerers, bards, rangers with animal companions, druids, and monks were all not available in the initial release; however, most of those were added in the books printed later on.
*Elimination of iconic spells, traditional class features, and whole classes in the name of balance. Try playing an enchanter or necromancer or a witch with a familiar. Sorcerers, bards, rangers with animal companions, druids, and monks were all not available in the initial release; however, most of those were added in the books printed later on.
*Exception-based design wankery, plus shit like the four different "evil eye" variations. Includes ability interaction and "How the hell do I adjudicate this?"
*Exception-based design wankery, plus shit like the four different "evil eye" variations. Includes ability interaction and "How the hell do I adjudicate this?"
*[[Image:whatthefuckamireading.jpg|thumb|right]] Using [[Page 42]] from the Dungeon Master's Guide to replace actual rules or good judgement. In 3.5e this is called "Rule Zero," but it was a guideline, not explicit rules with charts and figures and errata. ''(see the [[Page 42|wiki page]] for more specific criticism)
*[[Image:Wtf_am_i_reading.jpg|thumb|right]] Using [[Page 42]] from the Dungeon Master's Guide to replace actual rules or good judgement. In 3.5e this is called "Rule Zero," but it was a guideline, not explicit rules with charts and figures and errata. ''(see the [[Page 42|wiki page]] for more specific criticism)
*HP bloat resulting in grinding and "padded sumo" at higher levels. The Monster Manual II attempted to fix this with errata, but fa/tg/uys still judge it as broken.
*HP bloat resulting in grinding and "padded sumo" at higher levels. The Monster Manual II attempted to fix this with errata, but fa/tg/uys still judge it as broken.
*Instead of eliminating the 15-minute workday, the devs put everyone on the 15-minute workday schedule.
*Instead of eliminating the 15-minute workday, the devs put everyone on the 15-minute workday schedule.
Revision as of 13:26, 14 April 2010
Player's HandbookPlayer's Handbook 2Should have been the Player's Handbook, ended up being the cover art for Dungeon DelveDungeon Master's GuideMonster Manual
Nearly every roll consists of making a single D20 roll, plus a modifier, against a target number. Saving throws have been replaced with Defenses that work like AC; the term 'Saving Throw' is now used to refer to a roll to recover from a durational effect.
Character Generation
Chargen is simplified compared to 3rd Edition (although still time consuming) - skills are all-or-nothing, you either have training in them or you don't. Each character gains a selection of Powers which can be used at will, once per encounter, or once per day, in ascending order of power. These abilities often consist of an attack plus some special effect, such as knocking someone prone, setting them on fire, or moving yourself or your opponent. There are also five possible alignments, none of which have much effect on gameplay any more: Lawful Good, Good, Unaligned, Evil and Chaotic Evil. So all you chaotic good drow rip-offs are gone.
In addition to the races in the PHB, the following player races are in the MM and other sourcebooks: (all of them are "LA +0", to put things in 3.5 parlance):
Artificer (Role: Leader, Power Source: Arcane) from the Eberron campaign guide
Swordmage (Role: Defender, Power Source: Arcane) from the Forgotten Realms campaign guide
Monk (Role: Striker, Power Source: Psionic) from the third PHB
Psion (Role: Controller, Power Source: Psionic) from the third PHB
Seeker (Role: Controller, Power Source: Primal) from the third PHB
Assassin (Role: Striker, Power Source: Shadow) available only to D&D Insider subscribers
Battlemind (Role: Defender, Power Source: Psionic) from the third PHB
Runepriest (Role: Leader, Power Source: Divine) from the third PHB
Gameplay
Gameplay is divided into encounters. The GM selects monsters and traps up to a total experience value as recommended for the size of the party, and the encounter plays out as a tactical miniatures game. Non-combat encounters consist of "skill challenges", where skill checks (sometimes of multiple types) are made in sequence. XP is awarded for non-combat challenges and quests, as well as for combat encounters.
Each character can take one standard action (such as an attack), one move action, one minor action, and any number of free actions per turn. Each character also gets one immediate interrupt or immediate reaction per round, which may be used outside of the regular turn order. Generally each character will use their standard action to make use of an attack power. Characters are highly specialised as noted above, and fit into MMO-style combat roles of controller (lockdown/AoE), defender (tank), leader (buffer/healer), striker (DPS).
Characters level up from level 1 to 30; with the scope of the game changing every ten levels. At level 30 characters are expected to undergo some form of apotheosis.
Setting
The setting of 4e is highly generic and designed to give the DM a relatively blank canvas to paint on. This default setting consists of a wild medieval landscape in which isolated human and demihuman communities ('Points of Light') struggle to survive after the fall of a greater empire. This provides an explanation for the large areas of wilderness and many ruins for monsters to hide in, and the need for adventurers as opposed to more regulated militias. Which doesn't make any Goddamn sense, but okay.
The Planescape cosmology, present in 2e and 3e, has been removed, and a much vaguer "Astral Sea" cosmology has been put in its place.
The DMG contains an extensive section explaining the tropes of the setting and how they might be used, and also suggesting ways in which the DM can deviate from them to make the setting his own.
D&D 4e on /tg/
The reaction of some fans.
Since its announcement 4e has been a source of controversy and trolling on /tg/. Its supporters consider it to have made D&D simple and fun. Its critics have numerous objections to the system and setting, often referring to it as 'shit twinkie' (with the implication that they had been expecting a certain type of D&D goodness and sorely disappointed by what was actually delivered.)
It is virtually guaranteed that any 4e thread will descend into trolling within the first dozen replies.
Criticism or troll?
A criticism is one or more factual statements that, when combined, suggest that there is a shortcoming. What separates a criticism from a troll is that a criticism merely lays out facts and allows the reader to decide if the facts strongly communicate a flaw. A troll statement is one that includes possibly inflammatory statements that do not allow the reader to come to their own conclusion. For example, a criticism may be "Light blue type is difficult to read on a white background". A troll statement might be "The light blue type is stupid" or "Light blue is a shit twinkie".
Criticism
This article or section is being fought over by people undoing each other's changes. Please use the Discussion page for fighting instead of the article.
Some of the criticisms, valid or not, levelled at 4e include:
The powers themselves are very cookie-cutter in nature, relying on a number of stock effects (such as "Slide", "Slow", "Stun", "Spend a healing surge", etc.).
The fluff descriptions of the powers are incomprehensible. The world-fluff is also generally silly - even if some argue it is actually unnecessary to pay attention to the core fluff at all it still feels like a bad writer's fantasy heartbreaker. Examples also include the infamous Bear Lore check which requires an unusually high Nature Knowledge check to know that bears use their claws to attack.'
Characters are more durable, reducing the fear of death and TPK. On the other hand, a series of playtest combats carried out by Touhoufags show that a party that knows what it's doing and uses group tactics well will cut through encounters several levels higher than themselves like a hot knife through butter.
The skill challenge system, which was supposed to cover non-combat action sequences, was completely broken as-published, to the point that difficulties were inverted (in many cases it was impossible to accrue four successes before two failures on a complexity 1 skill challenge, while it was often nearly impossible to fail a high-complexity skill challenge), and the published examples of negotiation made Fighters completely useless in skill challenges because their lone class social skill, Intimidate, generates automatic failures (which was completely against the intention of the skill challenge rules). The mechanics have since been errataed, but the errata were also useless. The errata to the errata was also useless. The latest errata to the errata to the errata might be viable, but at this point most folks have just abandoned trying to make skill challenges viable.
Some feel that the decrease in rules, while welcomed, didn't go far enough. Apparently, a hardcover book filled with blank pages would have been ideal.
Over-reliance on unimaginative 'adjectivenoun' naming conventions, for instance: Darkleaf Armor: Darkleaves from the gravetrees of the Shadowfell give this armor its protective properties..
Lack of non-combat content such as crafting. This criticism partially refers to the reduced skill list and partially to the fact that the greatest focus of the game are obviously the Powers which are largely combat-oriented.
Fragile system: play like the devs or break the game. Single-class parties, exploiting ranged attacks, breaking the healing system/circumventing the healing surges mechanic, all make much of the game silly.
The Mongol dilemma--soldiers on horseback can defeat the majority of the game's monsters by virtue of the monsters not having decent ranged attacks.
Giving a flying monster a bow breaks the game against most parties, since only a few classes can viably use a bow.
Various broken abilities that demonstrate a lack of playtesting and/or wilful disregard for legitimate concerns (i.e.: "Orbizard," Demigod epic destiny, playtests of rangers soloing Orcus).
Embarrassingly shallow pre-written encounters. Encounters act more like furniture to kill for XP and loot rather than NPCs with motivations and planning. NPCs calling in reinforcements or escaping to return later causes the game to break down.
The economic system is a clusterfuck; the manufacturing cost for useful items is stated in the Player's Handbook to be exactly the same as the sale price.
Vastly dissociated mechanics: how do I describe what's going on in a way that makes sense? Too many powers cripple the ability to narrate a cohesive scene outside of a completely meta-game interpretation.
Daily powers for non-casters. "I can only swing for 6[W] + Strength damage once per day!"
Entire armies of high-level minions die in a sandstorm. "Working as intended." (note: this is considered a viable counter-argument, left in for humour value)
Healing surges as cartoon-character healing. Hit points have always been an abstracted measurement of fatigue, wounds, morale, &c. (the rationale for why a Warlord can shout HP back into you) which is easier to suspend disbelief when it's melee; however, when power descriptions/fluff explicitly indicate physical harm is being done, it's hard to roll with it. "Trust me, you can find surprising sums of surplus strength in you simply by having someone yell at you hard enough." (Note: this counter-argument is left in for humour value, also)
A lack of diversity and interesting classes caused by the standardization of all powers and classes.
Classes based on mechanics rather than fluff. (Stat combos are not classes. "Does damage" is not a class concept.) Note that 4e says the concept behind their classes is exclusively to do damage, it's just a purpose of the class.
Use of Dungeons and Dragons terms in 4e abilities that are misleading. E.G: The 'Sleep' spell doesn't put anything to sleep in 4e terms, 'Disintegrate' doesn't disintegrate, spells and rituals named after characters, even though there is no way to research spells and rituals.
Elimination of iconic spells, traditional class features, and whole classes in the name of balance. Try playing an enchanter or necromancer or a witch with a familiar. Sorcerers, bards, rangers with animal companions, druids, and monks were all not available in the initial release; however, most of those were added in the books printed later on.
Exception-based design wankery, plus shit like the four different "evil eye" variations. Includes ability interaction and "How the hell do I adjudicate this?"
Using Page 42 from the Dungeon Master's Guide to replace actual rules or good judgement. In 3.5e this is called "Rule Zero," but it was a guideline, not explicit rules with charts and figures and errata. (see the wiki page for more specific criticism)
HP bloat resulting in grinding and "padded sumo" at higher levels. The Monster Manual II attempted to fix this with errata, but fa/tg/uys still judge it as broken.
Instead of eliminating the 15-minute workday, the devs put everyone on the 15-minute workday schedule.
A party of everyone playing the same class is generally superior to a party of everyone playing a different class.
Powers often have ambiguous fluff, interfering with suspension of disbelief; see Bloody Path.
Common trolling points
Trolls often use these points in an attempt to start an edition war.
Claim that power-based class abilities is too similar to MMOGs, in particular World of Warcraft.
Claim that Martial characters resemble magical anime characters in capabilities.
Claim that the roles that fighters, wizards, clerics, and rogues fill were lifted from World of Warcraft.
"I could use Page 42 as canonical rules for skill checks to climb inside a dogs ass" or some other patently absurd action.
Fandom
Sadly, few people wish to speak up about what's GOOD about 4e, nevermind what has been improved since 3.5e, else they get hit with the fury of a thousand suns. Indeed, some retards (or should I say /b/tards?) on /tg/ will propose an obviously flawed "benefit" of the new edition just to bait the trolls and watch the fireworks.
The most dedicated unpaid fanwork based on 4e would be the Touhou Power Cards, although it's difficult to say whether these weaboo fags are using Touhou to be 4e fans, or 4e to be Touhou fans, or perhaps using Touhou as an overly-elaborate satire of the 4e concept of class powers.
