*Monsters all play about the same. A high level lich, supposedly an undead powerful wizard, has two attack powers. An orc has two attack powers. Adding to this is not much else changes, either (for example, the orc and lich differ in hit points by 2, and in expected damage by 2.25 against same-level opponents).
*Monsters all play about the same. A high level lich, supposedly an undead powerful wizard, has two attack powers. An orc has two attack powers. Adding to this is not much else changes, either (for example, the orc and lich differ in hit points by 2, and in expected damage by 2.25 against same-level opponents).
*Book saturation. "Everything is Core" philosophy, combined with a fast release schedule, churned out dozens of splatbooks, requiring a gamer to spend hundreds of dollars to play as WoTC intended. Poor writing has led to considerable errata, making a number of these books worthless within months of purchase.
*Book saturation. "Everything is Core" philosophy, combined with a fast release schedule, churned out dozens of splatbooks, requiring a gamer to spend hundreds of dollars to play as WoTC intended. Poor writing has led to considerable errata, making a number of these books worthless within months of purchase.
*Character power effects are impossible to remember, even though they're all "damage + possible effect". This is due to the names not necessarily having much to do with the effects. Steel Serpent Strike doesn't deal poison damage or is particularly fast, or necessarily use steel, as one example among many. Even after a year of play, most gamers will require special cards to keep track of it all.
*Character power effects are impossible to remember, even though they're all "damage + possible effect". This is due to the names (in addition to the fluff descriptions) not necessarily having much to do with the effects. Steel Serpent Strike doesn't deal poison damage or is particularly fast, or necessarily use steel, as one example among many. Even after a year of play, most gamers will require special cards to keep track of it all.
Nearly every roll consists of making a single D20 roll, plus a modifier, against a target number. Saving throws have been replaced with Defenses that work like AC; the term 'Saving Throw' is now used to refer to a 50/50 roll every turn to recover from a durational effect.
Character Generation
Chargen is simplified compared to 3rd Edition (although still time consuming) - skills are all-or-nothing, you either have training in them or you don't. Each character gains a selection of Powers which can be used at will, once per encounter, or once per day, in ascending order of power. These abilities often consist of an attack plus some special effect, such as knocking someone prone, setting them on fire, or moving yourself or your opponent. There are also five possible alignments, none of which have much effect on gameplay any more: Lawful Good, Good, Unaligned, Evil and Chaotic Evil. So all you chaotic good drow rip-offs are gone.
In addition to the races in the PHB, the following player races are in the MM and other sourcebooks: (all of them are "LA +0", to put things in 3.5 parlance):
Artificer (Role: Leader, Power Source: Arcane) from the Eberron campaign guide
Swordmage (Role: Defender, Power Source: Arcane) from the Forgotten Realms campaign guide
Monk (Role: Striker, Power Source: Psionic) from the third PHB
Psion (Role: Controller, Power Source: Psionic) from the third PHB
Seeker (Role: Controller, Power Source: Primal) from the third PHB
Assassin (Role: Striker, Power Source: Shadow) available only to D&D Insider subscribers
Battlemind (Role: Defender, Power Source: Psionic) from the third PHB
Runepriest (Role: Leader, Power Source: Divine) from the third PHB
Gameplay
Gameplay is divided into encounters. The GM selects monsters and traps up to a total experience value as recommended for the size of the party, and the encounter plays out as a tactical miniatures game. Non-combat encounters consist of "skill challenges", where skill checks (sometimes of multiple types) are made in sequence. XP is awarded for non-combat challenges and quests, as well as for combat encounters.
Each character can take one standard action (such as an attack), one move action, one minor action, and any number of free actions per turn. Each character also gets one immediate interrupt or immediate reaction per round, which may be used outside of the regular turn order. Generally each character will use their standard action to make use of an attack power. Characters are highly specialised as noted above, and fit into MMO-style combat roles of controller (lockdown/AoE), defender (tank), leader (buffer/healer), striker (DPS).
Characters level up from level 1 to 30; with the scope of the game changing every ten levels. At level 30 characters are expected to undergo some form of apotheosis.
Setting
The setting of 4e is highly generic and designed to give the DM a relatively blank canvas to paint on. This default setting consists of a wild medieval landscape in which isolated human and demihuman communities ('Points of Light') struggle to survive after the fall of a greater empire. This provides an explanation for the large areas of wilderness and many ruins for monsters to hide in, and the need for adventurers as opposed to more regulated militias. Which doesn't make any Goddamn sense, but okay.
The Planescape cosmology, present in 2e and 3e, has been removed, and a much vaguer "Astral Sea" cosmology has been put in its place.
The DMG contains an extensive section explaining the tropes of the setting and how they might be used, and also suggesting ways in which the DM can deviate from them to make the setting his own.
D&D 4e on /tg/
The reaction of some fans.
Since its announcement 4e has been a source of controversy and trolling on /tg/. Its supporters consider it to have made D&D simple and fun. Its critics have numerous objections to the system and setting, often referring to it as 'shit twinkie' (with the implication that they had been expecting a certain type of D&D goodness and sorely disappointed by what was actually delivered.)
It is virtually guaranteed that any 4e thread will descend into trolling within the first dozen replies.
Criticism or troll?
A criticism is one or more factual statements that, when combined, suggest that there is a shortcoming. What separates a criticism from a troll is that a criticism merely lays out facts and allows the reader to decide if the facts strongly communicate a flaw. A troll statement is one that includes possibly inflammatory statements that do not allow the reader to come to their own conclusion. For example, a criticism may be "Light blue type is difficult to read on a white background". A troll statement might be "The light blue type is stupid" or "Light blue is a shit twinkie".
Criticism
This article or section is being fought over by people undoing each other's changes. Please use the Discussion page for fighting instead of the article.
This section is for what people say is BAD about 4e. If you want to argue, put it in the Benefits section below, don't inject your counter-arguments here.
Some of the criticisms levelled at 4e include:
The powers themselves are very cookie-cutter in nature, relying on a number of stock effects (such as "Slide", "Slow", "Stun", "Spend a healing surge", etc.).
The fluff descriptions of the powers are incomprehensible. The world-fluff is also generally silly - even if some argue it is actually unnecessary to pay attention to the core fluff at all it still feels like a bad writer's fantasy heartbreaker. Examples also include the infamous Bear Lore check which requires an unusually high Nature Knowledge check to know that bears use their claws to attack.'
Characters are more durable, reducing the fear of death and TPK. On the other hand, a series of playtest combats carried out by Touhoufags show that a party that knows what it's doing and uses group tactics well will cut through encounters several levels higher than themselves like a hot knife through butter.
The skill challenge system, which was supposed to cover non-combat action sequences, was completely broken as-published, to the point that difficulties were inverted (in many cases it was impossible to accrue four successes before two failures on a complexity 1 skill challenge, while it was often nearly impossible to fail a high-complexity skill challenge), and the published examples of negotiation made Fighters completely useless in skill challenges because their lone class social skill, Intimidate, generates automatic failures (which was completely against the intention of the skill challenge rules). Errata was quickly published, which some argue was ineffective. WoTC agreed, and published errata to errata. WotC conceded this errata to the errata was also flawed, and released more errata (that's 4 different sets of rules in a little over a year) in DMG2. Many argue this errata is likewise flawed, and one can find many attempts online by players trying to make skill challenges work in a meaningful way.
Some feel that the decrease in rules, while welcomed, didn't go far enough.
Over-reliance on unimaginative 'adjectivenoun' naming conventions, for instance: Darkleaf Armor: Darkleaves from the gravetrees of the Shadowfell give this armor its protective properties..
Lack of non-combat content such as crafting. This criticism refers to the emphasis on combat powers over out-of-combat features.
Fragile system: Players can easily exploit and break the game by taking advantage of flaws in ranged combat, the healing surge mechanic, and other things.
The Mongol dilemma--soldiers on horseback can defeat the majority of the game's monsters by virtue of the monsters not having ranged attacks.
Giving a flying monster a bow makes it too hard for a party to kill.
Various broken abilities that demonstrate a lack of playtesting and/or willful disregard for legitimate concerns (i.e.: "Orbizard," Demigod epic destiny, Ranger powers easily killing demigods.)
Embarrassingly shallow example encounters. Encounters don't come with predesignated personalities or behavior such as calling reinforcements or fleeing from the battle without the DM creating them him/herself. Instead they seem like XP pinatas, and if they did bring reinforcements, it might break the game.
The economic system has major flaws, such as the manufacturing cost for useful items as stated in the Player's Handbook to be exactly the same as the sale price.
Vastly dissociated mechanics: how do I describe what's going on in a way that makes sense? Too many powers cripple the ability to narrate a cohesive scene outside of a completely meta-game interpretation.
Daily powers for non-casters. "I can only swing for 6[W] + Strength damage and mark all nearby enemies once per day!"
Minions are given only 1 HP and can be killed en masse with area-of-affect powers, or even by a sandstorm.
HP is an abstract measurement of HP, and healing surges are hard to explain outside of a meta-game level, since most power fluff states actual physical harm is taking place. Clerics can heal with spells the same way a warlord can yell hit points back into you.
A lack of diversity and interesting classes caused by the standardization of all powers and classes.
Many classes are based on mechanics rather than fluff. A class is built around its role (Striker, Defender, Leader, Controller) with the fluff painted over it.
Roles are not protected. Almost every class has multiple area of effect powers, supposedly the domain of the Controller. Defender classes can easily outdamage Strikers. Numerous classes also get healing, even if they're not Leaders.
Use of Dungeons and Dragons terms in 4e abilities that are misleading. E.G: The 'Sleep' spell doesn't put anything to sleep in 4e terms, 'Disintegrate' doesn't disintegrate, 'Fireball' doesn't create a ball of fire (it's a cube, at best), spells and rituals named after characters, even though there is no way to research spells and rituals.
Elimination of iconic spells, traditional class features, and whole classes in the name of balance. Try playing an enchanter or necromancer or a witch with a familiar. Sorcerers, bards, rangers with animal companions, druids, and monks were all not available in the initial release; however, most of those were added in the books printed later on.
Exception-based design wankery, plus shit like the four different "evil eye" variations. Includes ability non-interaction and "How the hell do I adjudicate this?". Even figuring out if "Hammer Attack" can affect a door requires house-rules.
Using Page 42 from the Dungeon Master's Guide as a guide for actions the rules don't cover, instead of the DM's own judgment.
HP bloat resulting in grinding and "padded sumo" at higher levels. The Monster Manual II attempted to fix this with errata, but the mathematics are still way off. Higher level monsters are grossly incapable of killing the players and have too much HP, making them take needlessly long to kill.
Instead of eliminating the 15-minute workday, the devs put everyone on the 15-minute workday schedule.
A party of everyone playing the same class is often superior to a party of everyone playing a different class. This is partly due to poor role protection, and partly due to the exception-based design making the primary 'interaction' between powers is when those powers are identical.
Powers often have ambiguous fluff, interfering with suspension of disbelief; see Bloody Path.
Monsters within the same species often have unique, but inexplicable powers, such as each Cyclops having a power called "Evil Eye" that does something completely different for each type of cyclops.
Defenses don't level appropriately, causing characters to always be vulnerable in at least 1, if not 2, defenses.
The skill system has been simplified so that now a single skill covers a wide range of abilities. For example, "Bluff" covers the ability to lie, to create a disguise, to write a forged document, selling items, and most recently due to PHB3, casting rituals.
Skills automatically increase by level, whether the player/character uses the skills or not. A high level fighter, with minimum intelligence, can lecture lower level clerics on religion, even discussing gods the fighter could not possibly have ever heard of.
Religion is based on intelligence (a dump stat for 4e, much as charisma was for 3e), so clerics are incapable of answering level-appropriate questions about their own religion.
The three 'tiers' of character levels (1-10, 11-20, and 21-30), aren't different from one another. Powers just have increased damage and bonus to hit, but don't actually change. The stock effects that differentiate powers, like 'Slow', don't change. A magic missile from a high level wizard just does more damage and has a better to hit bonus (against opponents with more hit points and higher defenses), and is otherwise no different than a magic missile from a low level wizard, and it's the same for all character powers.
Although players can find that low level combat is easy to manage, higher level combat is very hard to manage, even with miniatures, dice, markers, tokens, and other such devices.
Higher level characters each have a host of unique special powers, including a number of 'interrupts', causing fights past level 10 or so to be complicated interrupt-fests, with even interrupt-interrupts, and such.
Status effects also get out of control at higher levels; a monster can easily have half a dozen effects, each granting situational +2 or +1 or -1 or -2 or whatever.
Effects are not streamlined. Some end with a saving throw at the end of a character's turn. Some end at the beginning of some character classes' turn. Some end at the end of a monster's turn, or at the beginning. Some at the end of the character's next turn, automatically. Some at the beginning, automatically. Some are like that, but for monsters. And some effects have aftereffects, as well.
Monsters all play about the same. A high level lich, supposedly an undead powerful wizard, has two attack powers. An orc has two attack powers. Adding to this is not much else changes, either (for example, the orc and lich differ in hit points by 2, and in expected damage by 2.25 against same-level opponents).
Book saturation. "Everything is Core" philosophy, combined with a fast release schedule, churned out dozens of splatbooks, requiring a gamer to spend hundreds of dollars to play as WoTC intended. Poor writing has led to considerable errata, making a number of these books worthless within months of purchase.
Character power effects are impossible to remember, even though they're all "damage + possible effect". This is due to the names (in addition to the fluff descriptions) not necessarily having much to do with the effects. Steel Serpent Strike doesn't deal poison damage or is particularly fast, or necessarily use steel, as one example among many. Even after a year of play, most gamers will require special cards to keep track of it all.
Common trolling points
Trolls often use these points in an attempt to start an edition war.
Claim that power-based class abilities is too similar to MMOGs, in particular World of Warcraft.
Claim that Martial characters resemble magical anime characters in capabilities.
Claim that the roles that fighters, wizards, clerics, and rogues fill were lifted from World of Warcraft.
"I could use Page 42 as canonical rules for skill checks to climb inside a dogs ass" or some other patently absurd action.
Benefits
This article or section is being fought over by people undoing each other's changes. Please use the Discussion page for fighting instead of the article.
This section is for what people say is GOOD about 4e. If you want to argue, put it in the Criticisms section above, don't inject your counter-arguments here.
Even though /tg/ loves to haet on 4e, it still has a sizable fanbase that enjoys playing it, who will tell you 4e has discernible upgrades from its esteemed predecessor. While you're tying them to the stake and piling the firewood at their feet, they'll tell you it's still D&D, just more streamlined and balanced.
4e made some fixes to the previous system so that the game was more accessible and played out faster than its predecessor.
The streamlined nature of the game makes it much easier to understand and teach; powers require no adjudication outside their description, thanks to a standardized terminology for effects and conditions such as "marked," "stun," "dazed," "bloodied," ...
"Powers" are feat-like additional options when developing their character. This replaces the old spell system and allows base classes like fighters to enjoy the versatility enjoyed by clerics and prestige classes in combat.
All classes have a similar amount of options when it comes to combat and power selections, giving each class a simple balance of combat effectiveness and utility.
Skills have been simplified into broad categories, no longer needing an accounting degree nor half the page to keep track of points. Now everyone rolls the appropriate skill, but only those "trained" in class-appropriate skills or taking skill-feats get a bonus.
"Skill Challenges" are used as encounters without combat (ie.: disarming complex mechanisms, protracted diplomatic negotiations, sage research, &c.) with a series of tasks to achieve a final goal, each task a skill roll with modifiers for tactics.
"Roles" simplify what each class will bring the party in combat. Strikers deal damage to single monsters and expose weaknesses for others to exploit; Defenders focus the enemy's attention on away from vulnerable partners and can withstand more punishment, Controllers use their strategically to hinder multiple enemies beyond damage, and Leaders can encourage, heal, and grant benefits to their comrades. Classes with the same Role still have their differences: a Monk (Striker) is known for leaping around the battlefield with fast movement, using judo and kung-fu to move enemies so a Rogue (Striker) can flank and sneak-attack on their turn.
Classes are designed to compliment each other's tactics.
The game encourages out-of-the-box, creative thinking, allowing players to gain advantages rather than a whirlpool of penalties for doing actions the rules don't cover. Page 42 in the DMG allows Dungeon Masters to quickly adjudicate creative tactics so a DM will never have to say "you can't do that because I don't know how it would work out."
The streamlined effect system makes power descriptions easier to understand and remember. Powers that blind, slow, stun, and etc don't come with their own set of rules on how the blind, slow, or stun works - no more magic-users flipping through the rulebooks in the heat of combat trying to remember what dice to roll to know how long their spell lasts.
Saving throws are now a static 10-or-better on d20, so that unlucky rollers won't be screwed over by having a poor Will defense. This streamlines persistent effects like "confusion," or "on fire." You still have a Will, Reflex, and Fortitude defense for when these effects are put on you in the first place.
Fortitude, Reflex, and Will Saves have been replaced with Defenses that are functionally identical to AC. No longer do you roll your Will versus a DC, instead the attacker rolls the spell/effect's "attack" against your defense.
The Fort, Reflex and Will defense numbers each depend on the higher bonus from TWO stats. No more dump stat where everyone in the party has shit Charisma.
Prestige classes have been taken out, you don't have to count how many levels you want to forgo on your base class anymore. Instead, each class has several "paragon paths" which are like specialties. Your class gains new features powers based on its paragon path, but still retains the benefits of leveling the base class itself.
More Monster races, without needing to use "Level Adjustment" mathematics that feels like you were kept back a few grades in school.
Feats are much more interesting and easier to choose from now.
Powers are divided into At-Wills (every turn), Encounters (once per fight), and Dailies (once between sleeps). With At-will powers, lower-level Fighters can now cleave on every attack or push enemies around, and wizards can continually cast spells instead of three rounds then crossbow.
The three tiers for character levels (heroic (1-10), paragon (11-20), & epic (21-30)) give a sense of prestige and accomplishment not seen since Original D&D with Basic/Expert/Companion/Master.
Traps can be designed like monsters, with roles and templates, and introduced into an encounter.
4e has many supplemental books even for being so young. Each of these splatbooks arrive quickly but they are rich in information and flavor.
Monsters in the 4e Monster Manual come with a pre-packaged set of features that make them interesting encounters without any alterations, and they're easy to customize as you can just houserule them powers from other creatures or players.
Fandom
It is said that in the darkest corners of /tg/ and behind the very stars themselves, there exist fans of 4e. There are many rumors of these "fans", but most reports say that they are mostly nice folk who recognize the game's flaws but still want to play and share it with people for fun, making them either a very tragic folk or just... folk. The fanatic, ferocious 4efag or "4rry" may be a rare breed, but one to be weary of! It is said that logic and previous editions bounce off its hide, and the best way to escape alive is to wave a D&D Insider subscription to their nose, huck it in the other direction, and run, praying to the gods.
The most dedicated unpaid fanwork based on 4e would be the Touhou Power Cards, although it's difficult to say whether these weaboo fags are using Touhou to be 4e fans, or 4e to be Touhou fans, or perhaps using Touhou as an overly-elaborate satire of the 4e concept of class powers.
