Mary Sue

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This article or section contains opinions shared by all and/or vast quantities of Derp. It is liable to cause Rage. Take things with a grain of salt and a peck of Troll.
How it works.

Originally a Mary Sue is a character that is a shameless self-insert, poorly developed, without flaws and stupidly overpowered. /tg/ hates Mary Sues.

Unfortunately, after so much rage and so many troll threads, /tg/'s definition of Mary Sue has become blurred; no one can agree on what the phrase means, to the point where the mere mention of Mary Sue is enough to set off shitstorms across the board.

Some accept nothing less than the above description, and will sooner gut you then look twice if you say it's anything else. Others prefer a more generalized definition, which refers to an overly-idealized character who exerts an unjust amount of influence upon their respective setting or story. Others still carry this meaning out to extremes, and use the term to describe anyone who isn't a homeless junkie or a brooding sociopath with an alignment of chaotic neutral.

The term is commonly used by trolls, and can most easily be spotted by a blanket accusation of a character being a Sue without attempting to justify actual reasons behind it. More clever trolls will attempt to offer some explanation that is deliberately intended to get under the offended party's skin.

However, there is a conundrum regarding the definition. If the character is part of the established story (such as some portrayals of Wolverine and Batman), some say that this is not a Mary Sue, as they are a canon character. For them, the term "Canon Sue" is used; to qualify, a character must be overpowered, lack realistic flaws, be an established character in the story, and be a self-insert for the creator of the character (NOTE: few people will admit if the fictional character they create is a self insert). For the sake of this page, the definition of Mary Sue will also include Canon Sues.

In case you were wondering, the name "Mary Sue" comes from a short piece of Star Trek fanfiction called A Trekkie's Tale (and by "short", we mean four paragraphs long). First written in 1974, the original Lieutenant Mary Sue was a parody of the half-Vulcan jailbait and other shameless self-inserts that had been clogging up the Star Trek fanfic magazines. The trolling was so epic that her name became permanently ingrained in the vocabulary of every fandom on the planet.

It is worth noting, however, that very rare authors have the skill to pull off the Mary Sue, creating a character of such epic awesomeness (Re. Jhon Luc Picard) that no one gives a shit.

Never Ending List of Mary Sues

(Note: please post Mary Sues in alphabetical order, so they don't fight about who's the better Mary-Sue. Also, this is about fictional characters, so while Canon Sues are acceptable, no real-life examples. For the sake of peace, religious figures (and possibly mythological characters (particularly) when they're from original mythologies) are count as real-life examples).

  • Alice from the in-name-only "Resident Evil" movies. A character created for the movies, she has superpowers and is presented as ENTIRELY invincible. She manages to becomes an even bigger Sue when she loses said superpowers yet continues to obliterate armies unscathed. The film refuses to even let other characters do anything but get rescued by her, she's worse than characters written by Mathew Ward. The bitch is played by the director's wife; she's his perfect Mary Sue waifu insert and she's literally sleeping with him to get the job. Don't forget that she dual-wields katanas. And shotguns. And probably Desert Eagles, too.
  • Alucard from Hellsing Ultimate (Not that prissy shit of an anime series), but we don't really care due to copious amounts of blood and gore. Actually, he's one of the only people on this list with a logical premise for his Mary Sue-ness, well, as logical as super vampires that kill cities for a snack goes.
  • Andrew "Ender" Wiggin from Orson Scott Card's Enderverse, and a very blatant (almost comical to a serious reader) example at that. What's worse: he only becomes more of this as the story and the books progress.
    • On that note, Valentine Wiggin, Ender's sister, who is only overshadowed by her obnoxious, sociopathic brothers. Also has the distinction of being a self righteous prig.
  • All Angry Marines, done on purpose for lulz (hypocritical mary sues). Mostly because you can't beat them and they are the every fa/tg/uy.
  • Archaon, as he only loses to due Grimgor interrupting at the last minute. The campaign results not playing a role in Storm of Chaos can be forgiven because if Games Workshop used them like they said they would, the Hordes of Chaos would have been slaughtered before they even reached the Empire.
  • Ash Ketchum, from the Pokémon franchise most of the time, though he started off as one. Sees a legendary Pokémon on his first day as a trainer (said Pokémon is a Legendary one most go their whole lives without seeing and don't know exists; also trainers who see it are marked for greatness). Meets Pokémon gym master Brock who looks after his younger brothers; yet Brock promptly abandons his job and family just to follow Ash around. Before this he met a girl called Misty, stole her bike and got it destroyed. She decides to follow him to make sure he repays her for the bike. This never happens. Instead Misty forgives the debt and falls in love with him, with no reason for either given in the story. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.... (It should be noted though for all his Mary Sue traits he has never won a pokemon league championship)
  • Batman, depending the writer, usually if it's one of his fanboys, such as what Frank Miller has descended into.
  • The Blaz Ravens, for comedic effect.
  • Bella
  • C'tan (They're Gods though, so they have an excuse Nope. They're Pokémons.)
  • Chris Thorndyke
  • Cordell Walker from Walker Texas Ranger (the source of all the Chuck-Norris jokes), but he's actually eh pretty cool guy.
  • Creed, because he goes from being a homeless orphan in a ruined town to military commander of a vital Fortress World within a few decades. Going by his character description and fluff he doesn't have any flaws, he's never made any mistakes, and none of his plans have failed (even Matt Ward let his pet Ultrasmurfs lose once). Also, crunch-wise, he's a human not even one hundred years old yet he's a better tactician than beings many times older, more powerful and more experienced than him (like Eldar Autarchs, Space Marines Captains and millennia-old Necron Overlords). He even beat Tzeentch in a game of chess.
  • Divis Mal
  • Dr. Doom, depending on the writer. Worst case is he's written by somebody that forgets that he's a VILLAIN and depicts his rule over Latveria as unrealistically benign and it make look like the superheroes are wrong for trying to keep him from taking over the world.
  • Drizzt .(Deep down inside, you know it's true)
  • Edward
  • Eldrad, and what's worse: he knows he is, and is a complete dick about it.
  • Elves, especially their heroes.
  • Elminster Aumar (Forgotten Realms), who despite being unbelievably old and looking it, is having a threesome with his adoptive albino elf-daughter chick and the living goddess of magic right now, possibly while beating Bane in a sword fight with one hand and Bhaal in a magic fight with the other.
  • Ember Storm
  • Eragon, from the Inheritance novels. A sociopathic, whiny, medieval rip off of Luke Skywalker (for bouns points he was originally written to be an author self-insert). Within two months he becomes a near unstoppable swordsman and learns how to read and write! Many times he accomplishes near-impossible things with magic (the worst case being when he discovers the long-lost true name of the magic language and uses it to rewrite the laws of magic). By the end of the second book he becomes a Jedi, some elven ritual turns him into an elf. He swears that he won't kill if he has the choice, and won't abuse his power, only to turn around and do both. Especially when he uses his magic to make his counsin's fiancee's father forcibly walk from one side of the country to the other, never see his daughter (whose the only thing he cares about besides and more than himself) again, and be trapped in the elven forest until Eragon thinks he's made up for his past dickishness. Did I mention the guy was half starved from being incarcerated, clothed in rags and fucking blind from having his eyes pecked out of his head?. Despite his flaws and abuse of power, nearly everyone in the story loves him; those who don't are portrayed negatively and/or have something terrible happen to them.
  • Godzilla, depending on the movie.
  • Golden Aquilas, also done on purpose for lulz.
  • Green Lantern, especially Hal Jordan.
  • Grimgor Ironhide. He never loses, and if he does, any defeats he has are rendered non-canon. Plus HE causes Archeon's defeat and not of characters arranged against him.
  • Harry Potter. Just... Harry Potter.
  • Hoah from Shaman King. If there is any villain that can truly be called a Mary Sue, it's him, most other villains with this accusation still get defeated. Hoah not only proves invincible throughout the whole series, able to easily pull of feats that are impossible for everybody else, he also has the ability to revive himself if killed, meaning even the heroes beat him, which they state is impossible in a straight-up fight, it would be pointless, because he'd just back even stronger. The writer couldn't think of way to defeat him, so he instead makes a last minute turn towards good, getting away with a number of atrocities that would make numerous the Warriors Of Chaos jealous.
  • Humanity; in some (but not all) sci-fi or fantasy settings. Because in those cases humans are either the most powerful species/race (even if they're not the ,smartest, toughest, most numerous or technologically advanced species), the protagonists who only win because they're the favorite character/faction of the story's creators, and/or the hero who saves the day is a human.
  • IG-88 in the Star Wars expanded universe, arguably a parody of the idea, given that he easily breaks into the second Death Star and uploads his personality into it and takes control with nobody noticing, then gets blown up with the Death Star and nobody remembers him.
  • Jacob.
  • Jean Luc Picard (Not that anyone cares).
  • James Bond. To what degree varies, but the Roger Moore version is the worst offender; he's unbeatable at just about everything, a ladies-man to an unrealistic degree, implausibly intelligent, a crack shot, and basically unkillable.
  • Janeway, she was always presented as being right in every situation and gets away with a number of atrocities that surpass many of Star Trek's villains.
  • Jigsaw from the Saw films. Pick any character you think of with long list of skills or attributes, this guy has more, and he keeps getting away for a half dozen movies.
  • Kaldor Draigo. Two simple words: Matt fucking Ward.
  • Kalecgos (AKA Kalec), blue dragon who can disguise himself as a human-elf hybrid; from World of Warcrabs. Ham-fistedly inserted into the Blood Elves' redemption story arc as an enabler. Later he takes over the blue dragonflight even though he's not the oldest, wisest or most powerful blue dragon. Later he hooks up with a Jaina Proudmoore, a powerful human mage/noblewoman/faction leader introduced in Warcraft III.
  • Kenshiro, nothing can kill him and he's morally flawless, superior to everyone-fucking-else. At least until Shin Sagain the anime, where he starts fucking up often, even with his super kung-fu laser ninja powers. Most battles are curb-stomps until later on because it's a fucking show from the 80s. Note, however, that Kenshiro loses a lot, especially later on, and mostly wins his hardest battles because he's the only one worth a shit left alive by that point in the series.
  • Kharn, though he'd be an even bigger one if he actually had any impact on the plot.
  • Kratos : Yeah, he's a Mary Sue. He curb-stomps fucking gods due to plot armor (and because one of them decided to give a bloody psychopath god powers; Mensa applicant right there) and he has threesomes with complete strangers, even though he is meant to be grieving for the death of his family that he murdered himself. Oh and the rules for how death works change whenever it's convenient for him.
  • Kvothe/Kote from Ultimate Neckbeard Patrick Rothfuss
  • Lightning from Final Fantasy 13, she is basically a pink-haired Cloud without any of Cloud's likable personality traits. She's currently the NEW AND ASTONISHING HEAVENLY Valkyrie that fights a purple Sephiroth in her new game "Lightning's Return". Not that we care, but she was created by Motomu Toriyama, a man with a Chris-Chan-like persona and Matthew Ward style writing who is now continuously raping the franchise. He has a waifu love for Lightning like Paul has for Alice. Lightning is comparable to Alice on many levels, which says a lot, really.
  • Lisa Simpson. It varies across the series, but she is the only consistently intelligent person in Springfield, was once deferred to over STEPHEN HAWKING (often considered to be the world's smartest man irl), and shares some of the same beliefs as Matt Groening, the creator of the Simpsons. In fact, he admitted that Lisa is his favorite character, and that he would do anything to prevent her from looking bad.
  • Maka from the Soul Eater anime series. The fucktards at Bonez though it was a good idea to do the same thing they had done with Full Metal Alchemist, changing the storyline for the anime series, making Maka possessed weapon soul when fighting Kishin, even finish off Kishin with a single punch of courage bullshit. Such a damn shame since the series animation was so well done.
  • Many famous comic book superheroes under the wrong writer, Batman and Wolverine probably being the worst offenders.
  • The Mandalorians in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, depending whose writing them. While good under the correct writers, under some of the bad ones, they compete with badly written expanded universe Jedi and Sith for the position of Star Wars' Ultrasmurfs.
  • Marneus Calgar, especially post-Ward.
  • Captain Matthias Ward, I am the better Mary-Sue.
  • Med'an from World of Warcrack. Part-Human, part-Orc and part-Draenei, inheritor of the greatest level of power among Azeroth's mages, even beyond (-)any(-) High Elf mage. Also related to several lore characters in one way or another.
  • Mordenkainen (Gary Gygax's personal avatar in the Greyhawk setting and a level 30 wizard who never fucking ages past 50 despite being a hundred fucking years old without turning into a lich, he became bald for some reason, which makes him look evil, but he remains stupid neutral).
  • Most of the villains in Old World of Darkness. The writers didn't even try to hide that they favored them over the players.
  • Mr. Popo in Dragon Ball Z Abridged, though he's that on purpose.
  • All Na'vi
  • Optimus Prime. not like we care, he's still awesome as fuck.
  • The Primarchs and their daughters.THOSE WORDS ARE BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!! /tg/ can only create perfection!
  • Rhonin, archmage of the Kirin Tor, World of Warcrap. (Another Richard Knaak creator's pet. Obviously Richard Knaak is to Warcraft what Matt Ward is to Warhammer, though he has women in his setting's canon fall for his characters rather than Ward's sexist snuff).
  • Starkiller, AKA Galen Marek, the MC of the Force Unleashed Star Wars game. Mastered the Dark Side, mastered the Light Side, finished off the Jedi, defeated Vader, defeated the Emperor, met Yoda, rescued Leia, formed the Alliance, even used his bullshit cheesy force power to bring down a Star Destroyer. Give me a break.
  • Selene, from the 'Underworld' movies. Throughout the series, she bears several similarities to Alice; both are experts with weapons, both have superior biology to their respective species (humans for Alice, Vampires for Selene), both kill their way through swarms of enemies without getting a scratch, both have little regard for their source material, and both are played by the wives of the directors of their respective film series.
  • Space Marines, and all Imperial variants thereof (especially under certain writers). You know it's true. However, there are some exceptions who are awesome enough to get a pass. The reasons: just look at the favouritism they get from Games Workshop in both the fluff and the crunch (They always either win or get the "moral victory", they're the easiest army to use, they're updated the most, etc...)
  • Superman. He is morally perfect, one of the strongest beings in the DC universe, and his one weakness that's supposed to kill him never works ex: he lifts an entire continent of kryptonite after being stabbed by a dagger made of it. The only way to nerf him is to have Batman beside him, because Superman always becomes a dumbass when Batman is around (go watch DCAU Justice League to see for yourself).
  • Most 13 year-olds' RPG characters.
  • Richard, from the Sword of Truth series (he's not as bad in the TV series)
  • The Light from the Young Justice cartoon adaption. They can only lose if the plot requires it, and the number of times that happens can be counted on one hand. Plus they're boring.
  • Thrall, an Orc raised in a human internment camp, became Azeroth's premiere shaman and leader of half the world. World of Warcramps. Even people that were fans of him during Warcraft III have started to get sick of him.
  • The Unholy, a half-crow cowgirl in Vampire: The Requiem
  • Varian Wrynn, King of Stormwind and leader of the alliance, from World of Warcock, is showing signs of becoming one. The signs are, first, his flaws are disappearing (or being blamed on a split personality) Other, more established, canon characters are being developed for the worse (such as Jaina and Tyrande. NOTE; they're also two of Warcraft's few major female characters) to try and make him look better. He's chosen as a champion of a powerful demigod even though there are many other better candidates such as MOST Night Elves. Finally, even though he's been a racist warmonger almost as much as Garrosh (who's set to be the final boss of the latest expansion) there are no signs that he'll be called out or face any negative consequences for this.
  • The vast majority of self-insert fan-fic characters.
  • Wesley Crusher
  • Any White Wolf employee that shows up at a Vampire LARP session is automatically playing a millennia-old demigod vamp. (I wish I was exaggerating; they've waded into living-city LARP games as antediluvians and permanently killed people's Camarilla characters.) NOTE: This gets a pass as it refers to the employee's characters.
  • Young main characters in crappy Japanese animes and manga.
  • Yuki Terumi, AKA Trollzama. The writers of BlazBlue don't even seem to be trying to leave a believable way for him to be defeated.
  • Master Chief is definitely one, he has Ward-grade plot armour. Seriously, it was repeated throughout the games that he was born with the word LUCK.

(More to be added later (sounds of crying editors))

How Can I Tell If My Character Is A Mary Sue?

Each "Yes" answer gives your character a piece of Mary Sueness.

  • Does their personal morality always perfectly match objective reality? To put it another way, would there be any difference between describing their opinion and simply narrating what was actually going on in a scene?
  • Do they start the story at the pinnacle of achievement and have no way to grow or improve?
  • Is it a fan character that is better than the canon characters?
  • Do all the canon characters suddenly start talking about a fan character, with their presence in the story largely relegated to providing opportunities for the new character to show how pure, powerful, good-hearted, etc they are?
  • Are they someone's self-proclaimed fursona? (If so, stop reading this list and burn them for heresy).
  • Do they always make good decisions? And bad ones that are suddenly revealed to have been a good choice?
  • Do you use absolutes like "always," "everybody," or "never" when describing their abilities?
  • Do they feature an entirely contrived "weakness" that doesn't affect them any time it would harm them (such as being clumsy unless they are required to perform a great feat of athleticism) or isn't really a weakness (such as being too kind or righteous "for their own good") which was clearly added solely so the author could point to it when accused of writing a Sue?
  • Do you find that, rather than figuring out how the characters can work together to solve a problem, your primary concern as a writer is usually explaining why this one character can't do it on their own?
  • Did Matt Ward write this character?

Gallery

External Links

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