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Space Marines

2021-12-11T05:14:41Z

2001:8003:1D0D:301:83:B080:83CF:C1CF: Undo revision 800565 by 72.229.242.36 (talk) Vandal trying to 'prove a point'

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[[File:Silver Skull.jpg|300px|right|thumb|WE ARE THE EMPRAH'S FUREH! Also, [[Beakie]].]]
''For the vidya gaem, please see: [[Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine]]''

{{Topquote|Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other [[Imperial Guard|troops]].|Attributed to [[Rogal Dorn]], [[Primarch]] of the [[Imperial Fists]]}}
{{Topquote|They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall [[Finecast|mould]] them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great [[Pauldrons|armour]] shall I clad them and with the [[Bolter|mightiest guns]] will they be armed. They will be untouched by [[Nurgle|plague]] or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have [[Deep Strike|tactics]], [[Steel Rain|strategies]] and [[Dreadnought|mac]][[Centurion Squad|hin]][[METAL BOXES|es]] so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against [[Chaos|the Terror]]. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my [[Robert Heinlein|Space Marines]] and they shall know no fear.|[[Emperor|The God-Emperor of Mankind]]}}

The '''Space Marines''', also known as '''[[Indrick Boreale|SPESS MEHREENS]]''' (or '''Marinelets''' or (canonically) '''Firstborn''' now that the [[Primaris Marines|Chadmarines]] are here) and canonically named the Adeptus Astartes are an army in the [[Warhammer 40,000]] universe. They are bio-enhanced super soldiers clad in [[Power Armour]], and are generally regarded as the toughest warriors to ever serve the [[Emprah|Emperor]] (except for the Adeptus Custodes, Imperial Assassins and the now-obsoleted Thunder Warriors). The average Space Marine is around eight feet tall. They used to be seven feet in the old fluff, but [[Dan Abnett]] and the rest of Games Workshop have a hard-on for gigantism (though they have addressed the problems real-life gigantism can cause by throwing in more bio-engineering) so they jacked them up a foot, though RPGs from Fantasy Flight Games and games by THQ scaled them back to the more reasonable seven feet. Although do note that the height of Marines can vary greatly; some can even reach ''ten'' feet, like [[Asterion Moloc]]. "Giant gods of war" is far more believable, considering their insane feats and ability for a handful of them to face down an Ork WAAAGH!!! and Tyranid Hive Fleets, yet still make a major difference.

Internally, they have bones that can repel anything short of a boltgun round and can breathe underwater even without their helmets on because they have a third (artificial/augmetic) lung. They can also breathe all but the most potent of toxic fumes with little to no damage to their respiratory system, have two hearts, and live for hundreds of years (they may be functionally immortal, but they usually die in battle after a few centuries, so nobody can be sure, although a Salamander was found in armor fused to his ship and he was ten thousand years old and alive and aware...and batshit insane for having only his brothers’ corpses to look at for ten millennia and his body had severely atrophied). They are vastly more powerful in their [[fluff|official descriptions]] than they actually are in the ''Warhammer 40,000'' tabletop game (although the Marines statted in [[Dark Heresy]] or [[Rogue Trader (RPG)]] are walking rapemachines, and the [[player character]] Marines in [[Deathwatch]] are hard as nails). Much like the [[Chaos Space Marines]] are the 40k successors of the [[Warriors of Chaos]], Space Marines are the 40k successors of Warrior Priests, right down to their BALD. Portrayals range from hardcore but plausible super-soldiers to shameless [[Mary Sue]]s who could fight off Batman with one hand and the Joker with the other, considering their fluff feats and the things they defeat, defeating Batman and the Joker while missing all his limbs would be completely unsurprising for an Astartes. Although occasionally, they serve to make other galactic forces seem superior. ''More like the Ineptes Astartes.''

They account for approximately 35% of the playable armies (counting chaos space marines) in 40k, over 21.4% (yeah, I thought that was a pretty conservative estimate too) of played armies among the 40k fandom (factoring in that people can collect and play more than one 40k army), and as of October 2010, receive about 50% or more of new releases. While there are many, ''many'' chapters that you can choose from, the actual armies basically boil down to six main choices: [[Dark Angels]], [[Blood Angels]], [[Space Wolves]], [[Grey Knights]], [[Legion of the Damned]] (barely), [[Deathwatch]], [[Black Templars]] (previously) and everybody else (with the [[Chaos Space Marines]] accounting for three more codexes). Everyone who's a successor of the first two choices follows their codex and generally share their units, while the "everybody else" just follows the generic Space Marine codex. Don't let the promotional art fool you, though; the Space Marine army isn't exclusively Ultramarines. It used to be that you also had individual codices the [[Black Templars]], but they got folded into the generic Space Marine army. At least they still get special chapter-specific units, which is more than can be said for the likes of the [[Salamanders]] or other important yet still-neglected chapters. But nooo, the Ultramarines need every type of special character...

Contrary to that, [[fluff]]-wise Space Marines are amongst the smallest factions in the game. With Loyalist Marines combined they number just above one million in a galaxy where the Imperium alone has more or less a million honest to God inhabited worlds (deepshit colonies with a population of only a few million may or may not be included in that number). In fact, any single capital-class space ship may have a population higher than the entirety of Marines in the Galaxy. Furthermore, Marine armies are extremely fractured, very rarely deployed at above a company per war zone. GW never cared to explain how forces so small could have such a huge impact on the battlefields, when Orks, Guard, and Tyranids could field their troops in the millions, and Chaos can convert entire populations of planets (which is often tens of billions), though by rubbing two brain-cells together we can imagine a combination of them being just that powerful and focusing on opening opportunities for their strike cruiser or battlebarge to blow everyone up. (While the scale is certanly off, it might be less off than you think. Space marines are more "armor" than "infantry". In WWII, entire campaings involving millions of soldiers have been decided by battles focused around some hundred tanks). Regardless, everything that is something in the setting has a tendency to at least have a bit Space Marines in it, if they aren't flat-out the protagonists. Expect enormous campaigns to revolve around a few companies, regardless of the involved numbers of Guardsmen and enemy xenos and chaotic characters, and the Marines to be the key to victory in any given war.

The main reason for the small numbers, though, seems to be that [[Games Workshop]] and the [[Black Library]] authors have no sense of scale. For example, the largest battle of the Great Crusade was the battle for what became known as Armageddon. It had a measly eight million soldiers and several hundred thousand Space Marines. To say nothing of Mechanicus forces. Fast forward ten thousand years and most major battles or campaigns of the setting that require Space Marines only have dozens to hundreds of regiments, the average regiment size being ten thousand men in the lore. So, in battles that actually need Astartes there will usually be rough one Marine per one hundred or one thousand Guardsmen depending on how important the battle is. A battle with dozens of regiments often has elements of multiple Chapters involved and easily can have several thousand Marines of various Chapters fighting in the battle. On top of that, it is rare for Astartes to be needed in the first place outside of major invasions of strategically important worlds by particularly advanced alien or daemonic threats. When coupled with the complete lack of any ability to comprehend scale on the writers’ part, the small numbers or Space Marines are plenty sufficient for the Imperium’s needs.

Space Marines the selves specialize in achieving strategic objectives for the Imperial Guard and Mechanicus forces to capitalize on. Give them a mission and it will be completed. Making sure their success matters is up to everyone else. Each company is often spread across a planetary conflict since each Marine is so powerful that hardly any are needed to achieve a vital objective when supported by Guard forces such as tanks and artillery. Even at the tactical level aiding the Imperial Guard a single Marine will simply move around the skirmish to key points and curbstomp to make the enemy incapable of having any hope of victory. Basically, a Chapter of Space Marines should not be thought of as an army but as a collective of Master Chiefs.

Unfortunately for the Imperium, spreading the Guard and Marines so thinly across the galaxy is necessary as rapid response is not really possible due to the whims of the Warp. Especially with Warp entities actively interfering.

It should be noted that per "Fall of Cadia," [[Abaddon| a certain armless failure]] mustered a force of CSM ''ten times'' the size of the original Legion (i.e. Luna Wolves) for the 13th Black Crusade. So yeah, no wonder the poor Cadians didn't stand a chance—although ''technically,'' Abaddon only won because he flung the remains of a [[Blackstone Fortress]] at the planet's surface. He had a lot of Marines and daemons but cultists generally can’t survive long in the Eye. Most likely he had the means to seize any strategic objectives he wanted but not a sufficient auxiliary force to push home the advantages nor reliably keep the territory he took. Even if he did, cultists are batshit insane and so can’t exactly be relied on to follow orders competently.

[[Games Workshop|Geedubs]] [[Meme|has a hard-on for Space Marines]]. [[Slaanesh|Between the writers favoritism and the "Spots the Space Marine" fiasco, it's gotten to the point where they should seek professional help]].

'''THIS JUST IN: THE SPACE MARINES JUST GOT AN [[Skub|SKUBPGRADE]]! See [[Primaris Marines]]'''

==History==
[[File:Prayer before battle.jpg|250px|left|thumb|Marine with half his FUCKING face missing, skulls in the wall, bolter laying ready, and servitors with hoods swinging censers. Ladies and gents, [[Warhammer 40k]]. WAIT! Zoom in on his chest. At the handle of his sword. Isn’t that an eight-pointed star on his chest behind/on the sword’s pommel?]]
After the end of the [[Age of Strife]], the Emperor of Mankind (overachieving at it's finest) wanted to reunite [[humanity]] in a [[Great Crusade]] across the galaxy, and he realized that in order to do this he would need one epic-ass army and equally epic generals to lead it. He created the [[Primarchs]], his sons, to be his generals, and let me tell you, these guys were some of the most insanely powerful badasses in all the lore of 40k, and that is saying something. (There is a story in which [[Sanguinius|one of them]] snaps a fucking [[Bloodthirster]]'s spine over his knee.) From their DNA, he created the [[First Founding|Legiones Astartes, the first Space Marines]]. Their first task was to locate their Primarchs, because the [[Chaos Gods|Gods]] of [[Chaos]] had scattered them across the galaxy in an attempt to foil the Emperor's efforts at human reunification (they were basically just butt-hurt that they didn't have some baddass buttfucking sons; [[Slaanesh]] approved!). All of the Primarchs were eventually recovered and reunited with their respective legions, but then, at the height of the Space Marines' power, disaster struck. [[Horus]], the Emperor's most trusted Primarch, fell to Chaos and turned traitor along with his legion, the [[Luna Wolves]], and several others followed suit. After much [[Grimdark|sorrow, pain, and civil warring]], the Emperor killed Horus personally (Daddy issues at their finest yet again), but was mortally wounded in the process, which is why he is now a zombie being kept alive by the technologies of the Golden Throne (Undead Heresy?). The traitor legions, who are now known as the <s>[[Chaos Space Marines]]</s> TRAITOR ASTARTES, were defeated and pushed back to the [[Eye of Terror]]. All of the Primarchs that did not fall to Chaos during the Horus Heresy either disappeared or were [[Ferrus_Manus|killed]], and until very recently, none remained to lead the Space Marines. ([[Roboute Guilliman]], Primarch of the Ultrasmurfs, long enshrined and [[Matthew Ward|(according to some people)]] healing in stasis has recently been revived after ten thousand years). In addition, after the Heresy, the Legions were mostly [[Second Founding|split into smaller "Chapters"]] of up to a thousand Marines according to the teachings of the [[Codex Astartes]] (although some Chapters, such as the [[Space Wolves]] and the [[Black Templars]], do not follow Astartes orthodoxy and maintain forces in much greater numbers, and [[Dark Angels|some chapters]] go so far as to form almost legion-strength forces.)

The Space Marines are most commonly looked upon as warrior-monks, generally referring to each other as "Brother", "Battle Brother" or some variation thereof based on rank, spending most or all of their time training, in battle, or venerating the Emperor. However, no two Chapters are exactly alike, and many differ wildly from the standard perception of the Marines. The Space Wolves, as one example, appear to be much less disciplined than most other Chapters, maintaining a much larger force than permitted by the Codex and frequently having great feasts with much merriment and drinking (the Space Wolves happen to produce the only intoxicating beverage known to have any effect on Marine physiology, and which liquefies the innards of non-Astartes). Their attitude toward others in the Imperium can also differ greatly from Chapter to Chapter or even from marine to marine. Some are very idealistic, believing very strongly in their role as protectors of humanity (such as the [[Lamenters]], the [[Celestial Lions]] or the [[Salamanders]]). Others, like the [[Black Templars]], tend to disregard the ordinary elements of the Imperium, and emphasize much more their role as a weapon against its enemies. And some are [[Blood Angels | just]] [[Angry Marines | angry]].

Their attitude towards the Emperor can also vary. Although they are typically believed to worship him as a deity like most of the rest of the Imperium, the Space Marines are, by virtue of their gene-seeds, derived from the Primarchs and hence the Emperor himself, making them much closer to him than most humans. In fact, many of the Space Marine chapters' beliefs maintain some of the old [[Imperial Truth]] that the Emperor was not a god, but simply the greatest of mortal men, worthy of praise and veneration but not a deity proper. Although it is true that the majority of the Chapters certainly venerate him in an orthodox manner, others just scream his name a lot because that's tradition.<i>The exact degree of Emperor-worship in the Space Marine chapters is a bit mushy. Some openly refer to the Emperor as the God-Emperor while others are outright contemptuous of the idea. [[Excoriators|Captain Zachariah Kersh]], later Chapter Master, was such a nah-sayer but was converted by his experiences during the destruction of the Cholercaust on Certus-Minor. This could mean that among the various Chapters the exact degree of veneration of the Emperor could be entirely a personal choice rather than explicit doctrine. But again the inconsistencies therein make it hard to judge. Alternatively to this theme being a result of lazy writers is that it is in fact a clever but under-developed effect of the progression of the plot of Warhammer 40k. Such that by the end of the 41st millennium, things are so awful that even the Space Marines seek resolve in the worship of the God-Emperor.</i>.
[[Image:Blingmarine.jpg|thumb|right|The great Papa Smurf hisself.]]
Space Marines are generally regarded as having something of an "unfair advantage" in the tabletop, mainly because every young 40k player has a strong liking for them, and almost every unit in the listings has at least a 3+ armor save, making them rather hard to kill, especially when considering armies such as the Blood Angels have models that allow players to roll an additional "Feel No Pain" 4+ save if they fail the 3+ one. The problem is that it took 3 Space Marine Chapter books in 5th Edition to come up with a Space Marine Codex framework that didn't suck (almost nothing in C:SW is non-competitive or poorly priced), which is why Long Fangs are usually 50 points cheaper than their Space Marine counterparts, while being twice as effective. Why are Devastators supposedly more expensive? Combat tactics. Yeah, you're never going to use it. The Ultramarines in particular are an extremely popular choice of Space Marine Chapter, and their blue design coupled with the small size of the miniatures often leads to them being referred to as "Smurfs." Thanks to [[Indrick Boreale]], the Space Marines in general are frequently called "Spess Mehreens," or variations to that effect. The Space Marines of today look very different from the glory days of Rogue Trader, when they earned the nickname "[[beakie|beakies]]" because of their signature helmets.

Denizens of /tg/ are prone to claiming a wide variety of things about the Space Marines, usually about their sexual activity (or lack thereof), ranging from assertions that the genitalia of a Space Marine is nonfunctional to claims that they are castrated during the creation process. They never have any supporting evidence for these theories and it is not clear whether or not Space Marines are allowed to have sex, which Chapters would allow them to have sex, if they even can have sex, if they're still capable of normal human reproduction, or what bits they may or may not still possess. Still, that doesn't stop anyone from stating their personal opinion as if it were fact. The most revealed is that a female Inquisitorial henchwoman got an eyeful of a naked Grey Knight novice and was rather impressed by what she saw. The Grey Knight, naturally, had no idea why she seemed so interested. A Remembrancer saw a Marine naked and referred to his manhood as “equine”.

An interesting point to note is that right below this segment on the right is an image of a Marine with a loin-cloth. If there is no modesty to protect, why protect it? One suspects that the reason Marines aren't afforded the luxury of sex (aside from distraction from serving the Emperor), is that they'd kill whatever unfortunate woman or xenos livestock they take a fancy to.
The point is, due to psychological conditioning and likely the sterilizing effects of the augmentation process, followed by a century plus of service to the Emperor in radiation and toxic filled environments, they are simply disinclined towards it, and wouldn't result in any more meat-shields for the Emperor's glorious wars regardless, thus only serving the [[Slaanesh|arch-hedonist.]]

==Creation==
[[File:1396451926378.jpg|400px|thumb|right|From deranged lab-experiment to fucking [[awesome]].]]
Knowing [[Chaos|just]] [[Tyranids|what]] [[Necron|the]] [[Dark Eldar|fuck]] [[Ork|was]] [[Eldar|waiting]] for humanity in space, the Emperor of Mankind designed the [[gene-seed]], [[Gene-seed#The_Organs|nineteen special organs]] to enhance the regular human body to keep the Space Marines going when fighting these monstrosities. Over a series of several years, human adolescents, dubbed aspirants, are selected through a rigorous process which varies from Chapter to Chapter. They are always male, with cited reasons including that Astartes are basically clones of their Primarchs, and by extension the Emperor, and that the geneseed requires portions of the Y-chromosome to function. When their training goes to the next stage, the aspirants are implanted with the initial gene-seed. They then become neophytes, Space Marines in training. As the gene-seed is implanted into them, the neophytes also go through hypnotic conditioning to hone their responses. By the time they're done, the subject has few impulses beyond fighting and killing in the name of the Emperor (it's sometimes thought that this is what kills their sex drive) and most of their memories of their earlier lives are all but forgotten. The only mental frailties remaining are a "fear" (ATSKNF notwithstanding) of failure and experiencing notable stress when severely injured or crippled, as they are no longer able to fulfill their function.

After receiving all these organs and conditioning, it's highly arguable if a Space Marine still qualifies as human. Though the [[Imperium of Man]] has basic "kill on sight" orders for most non-humans and venerates the "Holy Human Form", the topic of whether or not Space Marines violate this edict is ignored, mostly because they were designed by the Emperor and thus considered holy creations. There is also an understandable hesitance to declare war on the only thing standing between the Imperium and the unfathomable evil of the [[Chaos Gods]]. Arguably Marines are no less human than those of the Mechanicum, just with organic implants instead of bionics, and cog boys still count as 100% right and proper humans (even if most of them consider themselves a separate species or at least "humans 2.0").

In fact, this religious need to adhere to the Holy Human Form may be why the Emperor designed the gene-seed to be a bio-enhancement project and not a genetic modification one; all of a Space Marine's inhuman abilities are a result of the artificially engineered organs shoved into their bodies during their creation, either directly (the secondary heart or multi-lung) or indirectly (the Ossmodula, which alters their hormone balance and makes their skeleton growth go berserk). Consequently, this means a Space Marine would technically pass a genetic scan of being "human" better than an [[abhuman]] like an [[Ogryn]] or [[Ratling]] would. The holiness of the Human Form came long before the Horus Heresy, so this theory is likely, anyways. Besides, the Emperor did attempt genetic modification but it proved either fraught with peril ''(ie. The Thunder Warriors)'' or painstakingly expensive ''(Valdor claimed that the entire productive capacity of the Imperium would be unable to generate anything else if Custodians were the primary forces)''. <s>Gene</s> Bio-enhancements are also much more conductive to mass-production. Of course, so long as the genetics are merely ''added'' to the human genome instead of (drastically) ''changing'' the genome, then it can easily be argued the enhancements are no different than using technological tools like auspex or lasguns.

Yes, this tramples all over the spirit of the law (not really, adding to something is just that; addition) whilst technically adhering to the letter, but it's hardly unique -- see the Ecclesiarchy having its own army of [[Sisters of Battle|power-armored gun-toting nuns]] despite being formally forbidden to have "men" under arms.

Another theory is that the Space Marines were designed this way for more symbolic reasons. Done this way Marines retain a link to humanity; all were born human, no more than any other citizen. They became more through science and training but they aren't some new species or a warrior caste. As Marines they are beyond humans but they know where they came from. The regular citizens see the Marines as the best of humanity, proxies for the Emperor's power. The Marines remember humans are their kin and while they are more than human they are still the same species, all coming from the same root. The power vested in them doesn't pass by blood, it passes by merit and a normal citizen can still aspire to become an Astartes even if it's a long shot. The Emperor's whole deal was based around humanity, so he built something that could be a symbol to all humanity. He could have bred a new war species but he altered us because his dream of the Imperium was the dream of humanity. Symbolic difference, sure, but it matters. There's a reason Space Marines are venerated not feared.

Incidentally, bio-enhancements like the gene-seed are actually more controllable than a genetic enhancing procedure would be, since the resultant outcome is more predictable, more easily mass-produced, and it means that even if a Space Marine could have kids, they would in all likelihood not be different from ordinary humans, since their abilities aren't tied to them on a genetic level, though they would be far more likely to become Space Marines since some amount of genetic compatibility is required.

It is also noteworthy that as a possibly unintended side effect of their geneseed, Space Marines are enormously well endowed. This is evidenced in the first book of the Horus Heresy series, whereby a Remembrancer described a naked Captain Loken as being "equine." Of course out of all the chapters, only [[Space Wolves]] ever seem to take advantage of this factor.

==How strong Space Marines are==
Fanboys and opponents constantly argue how strong Astartes are. This entails unfavorable comparisons to super soldiers like Custodians and Thunder Warriors, or comparisons to Ogryns and Imperial Assassins. The crunch can give reasonable estimates, but things like tabletop balancing show its limitations as broad indicators of performance (Guard officers have more wounds than Astartes recruits, although this could be argued as a tabletop representation of plot armour). Thus, it's often a matter of conjecture how far an abbreviated statistic translates into a hypothetical comparison; Strength 4 is weaker than Strength 5, but "Strength" can apply variously to lifting/pressing strength instead of striking force, hence why power-lifters don't necessarily make the best cage fighters.

The fluff (and writer) subject Astartes potency to many fluctuations, from absolute gods of battle to DOW1 opening redshirts levels of incompetence. Fans, BL and Codex writers all agree that Astartes are extremely powerful and resilient, with great tactical acumen (see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRa4_UjE4 Astartes - Part Three] ). Most fans agree this representation of them is more canon than most video game trailers (looking at you DOW 3). Astartes Pt.3 shows their post-human skill and advanced equipment are a cut-above even the more competent (renegade) guardsmen.

It is not difficult to create super soldiers in the Warhammer 40,000 Universe. Examples going as far back as the early Great Crusade show that humans can be brought up to near-Astartes strength through various surgeries that do not involve gene-seed. Presently, just about every militant Imperial arm has their own equivalent of super soldiers, ranging from the Ordo Hereticus and the [[Sisters of Battle]] to the Adeptus Mechanicus with their various [[Skitarii]] forces. Some cultures (such as Necromunda's [[House Goliath]]) even have the facilities and resources to enhance their ''entire'' population with superhuman strength, and even create some individual members with levels of bulk and savagery that outright exceed Space Marines, so when reduced to sheer combat potential a Space Marine doesn't appear to be that special.

A Space Marine's true "strength" lies not with his muscle power or his resistance to injury but in the fact that he is trained and drilled to fight at optimal strength, regardless of whatever battlefield he finds himself in. A Space Marine is capable of fighting centuries-long campaigns, eating toxic foods, surviving in irradiated environments with little to no atmosphere, not requiring sleep, not worrying about the effects of zero-gravity, and more. If he is lost without resupply he can consume the genetic information of local fauna or his enemies to survive, else he can enter hibernation until he is recovered. If he is injured, the wound will seal in mere moments, preventing further damage through blood loss or infection. If he is killed his progenoid glands can be used to create more Space Marines in his place. More importantly, he is disciplined to a level far beyond the scope of an ordinary human soldier and is highly resistant to the psychological trauma inherent to participating in long, bloody wars. Even if you took away his size and muscle power, a Space Marine ''still'' ought to be one of the finest soldiers in existence.

There is also the added benefit that ''outside'' of combat situations, many Space Marines can generally find ways to make themselves useful in ways that roid-raging, uber warriors would find difficult: both [[Fulgrim]] and [[Sanguinius]] encouraged their sons to excel as artists and artisans; the [[Iron Warriors]] and the [[Thousand Sons]] ''(before the Heresy)'' were pretty good architects or scholars; and [[Vulkan]] and his sons were generally quite cool bros. This is [[Lion El'Jonson|not]] [[Angron|the]] [[Konrad Curze|rule]], but it shows how Space Marines ''could'' potentially have adapted to life during peacetime after their task was done.

None of these things translate to tabletop rules so they typically get discounted when trying to compare one to the other, but the context of a fight can be supremely important. For instance, an Ogryn certainly could not survive underwater or in methane atmospheres and would choke to death before the fight even began. It is unclear if other superhuman lines can do all of these things: Custodians are most likely equal if not superior to Astartes in most respects, but they are far more difficult to produce than Space Marines and are too valuable to waste on standard military operations. Thunder Warriors certainly couldn't do everything (and indeed were never intended to survive past the Unification Wars), while Assassins are subject to different upgrades that are more niche to their function. All of them might be physically more powerful than a Space Marine, but either take up more resources to create or are simply unsuited for other tasks.

==The Lifespan Debate==
[[File:Sons of Corax by MajesticChicken.jpg|450px|thumb|left|When the going gets tough, the tough get going.]]
The lifespan for Astartes is something of a tricky subject. Because although Astartes refer to normal humans as “mortals” and their daddies and Big E never said they were wrong to and although a Salamander from the Great Crusade was found fused by his armor to his ship’s deck (and insane from boredom) ten thousand years later, some dumb bitches don’t want the demigods to be demigods. Probably the same people who imagine Astartes as similar to Halo’s Spartans despite the examples of handfuls of Space Marines butchering entire armies of super aliens and daemons from literally Hell itself (sometimes one and the same). While it’s made clear that Space Marines live many centuries longer than normal humans, exactly how long they’re ''supposed'' to live has never really been elaborated on; and furthermore, keep in mind that the middle age of the upper-class Imperial citizens is circa 3 centuries or so. It doesn’t help that there has never been a Space Marine shown or described to have ever died of anything resembling old age, and that different chapter bloodlines (and writers) each appear to handle aging differently. So there really isn’t any kind of baseline to work with here. Perhaps most central to the issue is the question of whether or not Astartes are biologically immortal. Of course, there’s also the question or whether or not gene-seed from a Primarch instead of hand-me-down man juice makes a difference.

On the “for” side, both [[Dan Abnett]] and [[Graham McNeill]] claim that Astartes are indeed immortal, and that although they might physically age (grey hair, wrinkles, etc.) it is only skin deep and they are in just as good physical condition as when they first joined the Astartes, only dying when they are killed. Nick Kyme also appears to be a believer in the immortal point of view (though more in a sitting-stone-gathers-moss-and-lasts-forever kind of way), as in his Salamanders series, an [[wat|Astartes survivor from the Horus-friggin-Heresy was found in a crashed and buried Salamanders starship]]. His armor had melded into the metal of the ship and he could no longer move, but he was alive. He had apparently been sitting there watching over the empty, ancient suits of armor from his fallen brothers for ten thousand years. He was also borderline crazy from all the memories filling his head (thanks eidetic memory, but then if he had human memory he'd have Alzheimers or something) and his vocal cords and muscles were desiccated, but the latter are implied to be due to atrophy from inactivity more than anything else so that doesn't count. [[Nick Kyme]] also touched on the subject in Fall of Damnos, with a Tactical Sergeant remarking that he did not know himself if Astartes could die of old age, or that even if they could he had never heard of it happening - indeed, it would be a dishonor to the warrior lifestyle of a Space Marine to do so. The Night Lords series by Aaron Dembski-Bowden is another in the "for" catagory, at least in that the Astartes refer to humans as "mortals," and Talos, at just 300 years old, is apparently considered young for a Crusade-era, unwarped traitor Space Marine. David Annandale has also made allusions to the longevity of the Astartes. In ‘The Death of Antagonis’ Brother Nithigg of the Black Dragons chapter is noted by Sergeant (later Captain) Volos to be ‘at least 1000’, and showing no signs of slowing down or decrease in combat efficiency.

On the “against” side, the [[Blood Angels]] are specifically noted for having exceptionally long, but limited lifespans, namely a 1000 years give or take, and Marines from other Chapters don’t live nearly as long. This has been reaffirmed in the current Blood Angels Codex, and it should be noted that it was written by GW's biggest Space Marine fanboy. Yes, even [[Matt Ward|Ward]] says Space Marines can die of old age. Even Abnett has flip-flopped a bit on it, with Brothers of the Snake (admittedly his first time writing Space Marines) portraying the apothecary Khiron as starting to slow down with his advanced age and not being quite as fit as he used to be. The Space Wolves also have a dedicated unit representing their more senior members in the [[Long Fangs]]. While the canis helix certainly plays a part in their aging, it is also implicit that these warriors represent a more traditional "warrior elder." Maybe most importantly, a highly plot-relevant fact about the duel between [[Abaddon]] and [[Sigismund]] is that everyone present, Abaddon included, agreed that if Sigismund had not been slowed down by his age, he would have been the clear victor, and Abaddon only managed to fight him to a near-mutual-kill draw because he had been protected from aging by living in the Eye of Terror. Other things you can handwave or retcon, but the Black Templar vs the Black Legate is as close to sacrosanct as you get.

Of course all of the above might reflect differences in the stability and expression of traits in given "strains" of gene seed. Both the BA and the SW have documented flaws and instabilities in their gene seed whereas the Salamanders descend from a perpetual. Perhaps the IF sit somewhere between those extremes being descended from a the tough as nails, uber durable and stubborn Rogan Dorn.

Unsurprisingly, BL tends to be inconsistent with their lore. There's 2 reasons for this. 1st is because some gamers would think less of the Space Marines if they could die of old age, which Gee Dubs doesn't want. 2nd is because GW seems to agree that not dying of old age would be great. However, they wouldn't want to anger the part of the fanbase that doesn't want Astartes to be biologically immortal, so GW must be deliberately vague on this. This is retarded because the god-like mystique comes from their immortality. Removing immortality would demote the Astartes from demigods to super-special forces, lacking much of their awe. Woop-dee-fucking-doo. The people who don't want the Astartes to be immortal are whiny bitches who want their own armies to seem more impressive by dragging the Astartes down to a mortal level. Which is pathetic and probably heretical.

Others have tried to argue that biological immortality would limit the incentives for Heretic Astartes to seek demonhood, but these people fail to make a key distinction. The inability to die of old age doesn't remove the threat of injury or death. On the other hand, ascending to demonhood leaves you unbound to physics and immune to death, instead being banished for a time. For those wondering, Chaos Marines who remember the Horus Heresy but lack demonhood aren't considered for this debate due to warp fuckery. The Night Lords and Alpha Legion are an exception since their location lacks warp-taint, but it's unknown if any of them are from the Horus Heresy.

Regardless, the true measure of an Astartes is their killing potential. If Astartes can die of old age, they'll more likely die in battle before age takes its toll. If age DOES take its toll, then the loss of potency due to old age will get them killed anyway. However, being ''slowed down'' by old age doesn't count as ''dying'' of old age. General estimates place the average Astartes life expectancy at 400-500 years, becoming a venerable elder and certified badass if they exceed this span.

On a more grimdark note, the Horus Heresy series shows that Astartes are vulnerable to mental traumas like PTSD thanks to a lifetime of war in the meat grinder. It's possible that instead of old age, it's the weight of mental trauma that slows them down. Dan Abnett never wrote those books of course, who believes that Big E wouldn't make super soldiers vulnerable to mental trauma (no galactic ruler worth their salt would allow such ailments to happen if they can prevent it). Others have argued that mental trauma is endured in training, and continues until they become proper Astartes hardened to such struggles.

==Space Marine Chapters==
[[File:40k RPG.jpg|300px|right|thumb|We honestly can't tell whether this is a dude or a chick, so you'll just have to make a guess and face the consequences.]]
*[[Aurora Chapter]] - Institutionally lazily named.
*[[Astral Claws]] - Institutionally secessionist.
*[[Astral Knights]] - Institutionally [[The World Engine|crazy awesome, but totally dead]].
*[[Alpha Legion]] - Institutionally closet loyalists
*[[Avenging Sons]] - Institutionally makes their enemies look good.
*[[Black Dragons]] - Institutionally taking their cue from Wolverine.
*[[Black Templars]] - Institutionally crusaders.
*[[Blood Angels]] - Institutionally [[Black Rage|unstable]].
*[[Blood Ravens]] - Institutionally <s>relic hunters</s> Obsessive Kleptomaniacs.
*[[Space Sharks|Carcharodons Astra]] - Institutionally banished, yet loyal. [[Badab War|Fucking shit up very eclectically.]]
*[[Celebrants]] - Institutionally gradient.
*[[Celestial Lions]] - Institutionally suffering losses from [[Ork Snipers]].
*[[Crimson Fists]] - Institutionally [[Reasonable Marine|reasonable.]]
*[[Dark Angels]] - - Institutionally <s>mysterious</s> <s>Loyal</s> <s>Traitors?</s> LOYAL WITHOUT QUESTION FROM FOUNDING UNTIL DESTRUCTION.
*[[Dark Hands]] - - Institutionally... wait have these guys done anything other then face the Hrud and a couple of Orks?
*[[Dark Hunters]] - Institutionally grim of grim marines.
*[[Death Spectres]] - Institutionally albino.
*[[Deathwatch]] - Institutionally, intentionally and professionally xenocidal. Employed by the [[Inquisition]], recruited from other Chapters.
*[[Doom Eagles]] - Institutionally doomed.
*[[Emperor's Shadows]] - Institutionally Japanese.
*[[Emperor's Spears]] - Institutionally a Celtic.
*[[Excoriators]] - Institutionally ugly.
*[[Executioners]] - Institutionally [[lawful stupid|honorable]].
*[[Exorcists]] - Institutionally [[Heresy|possessed and exorcised]].
*[[Flesh Tearers]] - Institutionally RIP AND TEAR.
*[[Flesh Eaters]] - Institutionally cannibals.
*[[Flame Falcons]] - Institutionally ON FIRE. ALL OF THEM.
*[[Fire Angels]] - Institutionally religious BUT ALSO ON FIRE.
*[[Fire Lords]] - Institutionally [[Flamer|burny]], possibly more so than the [[Salamanders]] (see below).
*[[Fists Exemplar]] - Institutionally were there after the [[Imperial Fists]].
*[[Genesis Chapter]] - Institutionally [[Ultramarines]].
*[[Grey Knights]] - Institutionally killing [[Daemon|Daemons]].
*[[Guardians of the Covenant]] - Institutionally record-keeping Catholic space monks.
*[[Hammers of Dorn]] - Institutionally trolling the Ultramarines.
*[[Hospitallers]] - Institutionally religious.
*[[Howling Griffons]] - Institutionally Black Templars wannabes.
*[[Inceptors]] - Institutionally <blank>.
*[[Imperial Fists]] - Institutionally fortifying this position.
*[[Invaders]] - Institutionally trading blows with Eldar.
*[[Iron Hands]] - Institutionally angry cyborgs.
*[[Iron Snakes]] - Institutionally [[Awesome|Texas Rangers]].
*[[Lamenters]] - Institutionally unlucky.
*[[Legion of the Damned]] - Institutionally undead WHILE ON FIRE!
*[[Marines Errant]] - Institutionally being actual marines.
*[[Marines Malevolent]] - Institutionally MASSIVE assholes.
*[[Mantis Warriors]] - Institutionally misdirecting.
*[[Mentors]] - Institutionally academic. Has not been heard from [[Rogue Trader (Sourcebook)|for a long time]].
*[[Minotaurs]] - Institutionally mysteriously paranoid teamkilling dicks. They are suspected to be in league with the [[High Lords of Terra]] as an attempt to police the Adeptus Astartes. Cause that'll work.
*[[Mortifactors]] - Institutionally Skulls and Bones.
*[[Novamarines]] - Institutionally hating Xenos.
*[[Raptors]] - Institutionally [[Reasonable_Marines|reasonable]] and [[shooty]].
*[[Raven Guard]] - Institutionally [[Troll|tricksy]] and speedy.
*[[Rainbow Warriors]] - Institutionally [[Gay|<s>gay</s>]] not appearing in this game.
*[[Red Scorpions]] - Institutionally pure.
*[[Red Talons]] - Institutionally bloodthirsty, and red.
*[[Relictors]] - Institutionally radical.
*[[Retributors]] - Institutionally tactical, also officially official.
*[[Salamanders]] - Institutionally [[Flamer|burny]]. Also, surprisingly nice for all their... fiery nature.
*[[Sable Swords]] - Institutionally heirs to the [[Astral Knights]].
*[[Scythes of the Emperor]] - Institutionally NOT DEAD YET.
*Shadow Wolves - Institutionally made up by AD-B for his wife, and wiped out in a book he wrote.
*[[Silver Skulls]] - Institutionally [[Shaman|shamanistic]].
*[[Sons of Medusa]] - Institutionally lime green.
*[[Sons of the Phoenix]] - Institutionally totally not the [[Emperor's Children]].
*[[Soul Drinkers]] - Institutionally rebellious.
*[[Space Sharks]] - Institutionally [[Shark|SHARKY]], BITCH!
*[[Space Wolves]] - Institutionally Swedish,(Bjork Bjork Bjork)
*[[Star Phantoms]] - Institutionally SURPRISE, MOTHERFUCKER!.
*[[Storm Wardens]] - Institutionally Celtic.
*[[Ultramarines]] - Institutionally <s>[[Codex_Astartes|orthodox]]</s> Matt Ward Cultists.
*[[Unnumbered Sons]] - Institutionally without identity.
*[[White Scars]] - Institutionally Mongolian.
*[[White Templars]] - Institutionally Black Templars...but white
*[[Valedictors]] - Institutionally gone, so forget it.

==Space Marine Chapter Masters==
[[File:Angels of the Rock.jpg|200px|right|thumb|Tiny head syndrome is a common side effect of the augmentations]]
*[[Marneus Calgar]] - Chapter Master of the [[Ultramarines]]. Received the rank by having the most plot armor, nowadays he has become Guilliman's aide in running Ultramar.
*[[Dante]] - Chapter Master of the [[Blood Angels]]. '''Beware!!!!'''. Dante is watching you! Received the rank for being so old and always wearing a mask, he looks like a man entering his sixties without it.
*[[Logan Grimnar]] - Great Wolf of the [[Space Wolves]]. Is the wolfiest of all the wolf lords without being a furry, also, he cares a lot for the average baseline human.
*[[Azrael]] - Supreme Grand Master of the [[Dark Angels]]. Best at VANQUISHING FOUL TRAITORS FROM OTHER LEGIONS.
*[[Vorn Hagen]] - Chapter Master of the [[Imperial Fists]]. Appointed as Chapter Master <s>out of pity</s> because he was the second best candidate in line for the job, and the [[Darnath Lysander|TRUE HERO]] had turned it down so he could continue doing what he does best (namely make servants of Chaos cry with a generous appliance of [[Thunder Hammer]] to the face). Died in the Second Battle of Terra and was replaced by Gregor Dessian.
*[[Jubal Khan]] - Chapter Master of the [[White Scars]]. Proved his speediness by outracing a bike mounted captain wearing only rollerskates. Was abducted by the [[Red Corsairs]] and tortured to the point that he is permanently crippled and forced to survive strapped to life support systems in the Chapter's Fortress Monastery.
*[[Tu'Shan]] - Master of the Fire Drakes, [[derp|de-Facto]] Chapter Master of the [[Salamanders]]. Forged the burniest flamer.
*[[Kardan Stronos]] - Chapter Master of the [[Iron Hands]](sort of). Was actually democratically elected for diplomatic reasons, temporarily. It's complicated.
*Corvin Severax - Former Chapter Master of the [[Raven Guard]], nicknamed "Master of Shadows". Got the job by being the sneakiest of the sneaky Marines (they were looking for him to officially grant him the rank until the last day). Unfortunately some [[Shadowsun|blue-skinned bitch]] had him killed in the Damocles Gulf (ironically by being even sneakier and trickier then him).
*[[Kayvaan Shrike]] - Formerly Captain of the Raven Guard's third company, and all-around badass that [[get shit done]] in his Primarch's time-honored way (i.e. sneak up to a motherfucker and shred him with [[Lightning Claws]] before vanishing again). Shrike was decided unanimously to be Severax' successor when the latter suffered from an unfortunate severe overdose of Tau gunline; only adding to his [[awesome]].
*[[Kaldor Draigo]] - SUPREME Grand Master of the [[Grey Knights]] and one of [[Matt Ward]]'s [[Mary Sue|Special Snowflakes]]. Honored for being the single biggest Mary Sue in the whole damn setting by being able to survive in the Warp unprotected and uncorrupted. Fortunately, later authors have been working to tone him down and give him an actual personality.
*[[Helbrecht]] - High Marshall of the [[Black Templars]]. Was voted High Marshall for being the angriest of the not [[Angry Marines]]. Has a [[Waifu|tsundere]] relation with [[Imotekh the Stormlord]]
*[[Pedro Kantor]] - Chapter Master of the [[Crimson Fists]]. Got the most votes (read: all three) during the election.
*[[Gabriel Seth]] - Chapter Master of the [[Flesh Tearers]]. Ripped and tore the most during the Chapter Master audition (also kicked one of the judges in the balls), he is a bit tsundere for Dante while still being totally bros with him.
*[[Azariah Kyras]] - Former Chapter Master of the [[Blood Ravens]] who was killed for being a filthy, despicable, traitorous, no good follower of Chaos. Later replaced by [[Gabriel Angelos]].
*Gabriel Angelos, a totally cool dude who had to deal with Kyras heresy, as well as Baldeale's incompetence and having his recruiting worlds invaded by the Tyranids.
*Sarpedon - Chapter Master of the [[Soul Drinkers]] Also, a (bottom) half giant spider mutant. Got all his friends killed for trying to do the right thing. Rookie Grimdark mistake, kid.
*[[Carab Culln]] - Lord High Commander of the [[Red Scorpions]]. Got promoted after the last one was killed. Then got himself mortally wounded and was interred in a [[Dreadnought#Leviathan Pattern|Leviathan Dreadnought]]. Suceeded by [[Casan Sabius]].
*Artekus Bardane - Chapter Master of the [[Relictors]]. Collects and uses Chaos artifacts better then anyone in the Chapter.
*[[Asterion Moloc]] - Chapter Master of the [[Minotaurs]]. No clue how he got the job, our inquiries were met with death threats and top level cease and desist orders. Has a laser-shooting pimp cane and won't mind sacrificing his own people to get the job done.
*[[Lugft Huron]] - Chapter Master of the [[Astral Claws]]. Got the rank by being absolutely awesome, unfortunately he overdid it and caused the [[Badab War]].
*Lias Issodon - Chapter Master of the [[Raptors_(Chapter)|Raptors]]. The most reasonable of the not-[[Reasonable Marines|reasonable marines]].
*[[Tyberos the Red Wake]] - Chapter Master of the [[Space Sharks]], or at least assumed to be. He was the leader of the Carcharodons during the Badab War, but his exact rank was never confirmed until 8th Edition. Still showed the best technique when it came to applying '''RIP AND TEAR''' to heretic asses, assisted by his [[awesome|LIGHTNING CLAW CHAINFISTS]].
*Omadon Tiresias - Chapter Master of the [[Star Phantoms]]. Blinded by warp storms during the evacuation of the Star Phantom home world, he forsook his own sight to save the relics of his Chapter.
*Malakim Phoros - Chapter Master of the [[Lamenters]]. Not happy with his Chapter being constantly shat upon and sided with Huron during the Badab War. Ohh, you poor man. Despite being utterly screwed and [[Eldrad|dicked with]] due to [[Tzeentch|unbelievably bad fortune]] AND struggling with crippling depression and cynicism, the guy refuses to give up faith in his fellow man. [[Grimdark|Naturally, it only makes things worse.]]
*[[Lord Magyar]] - Chapter Master of [[Mortifactors]]. His artificer armor is made from bone entirely, and though the rule Slow and Purposeful is no more, he definitely IS [[Tactical genius|slow and purposeful]]. He wears a relic [[Typhus|power scythe]]. He is at least [[Awesome|700 years old]].

== Rivalries ==
[[File:Moloc.JPG|300px|right|thumb|Everyone hates the Minotaurs]]
While normally above mortal shortcomings, the greatest flaw of the Space Marines is their hubris. They are immensely proud warriors who do not take kindly to having their honor slighted. Some take mental note of this for a later date while others [[rip and tear|take the more direct approach]]. This has created some notable rivalries between the various Chapters, some of which date back to the Great Crusade.

*'''Space Wolves and Dark Angels''' - The Space Wolves and Dark Angels have a rather tumultuous and sometimes violent rivalry, but in a way their Legions truly reflect the relationship between brothers. The rivalry itself stems from a confrontation between their Primarchs that stemmed from the different cultures the Primarchs had come up in. During a joint operation between the Wolves and the Dark Angels, the planet's ruler had insulted Russ personally, so Russ resolved to slay him personally. The Lion tried to cut Russ in on his deep strike plan, but Russ would have none of it. He didn't want to defeat the enemy, he wanted to utterly crush them. Frustrated with his brother's lack of cooperation, the Lion launched his strike without the Wolves' help, and Russ fought his way into the planetary ruler's palace just in time to watch the Lion behead him. Furious, Russ threw down his weapons and punched the Lion, starting a lengthy fist fight that only ended when Russ started laughing upon realizing how pointless the fight was and how stupid he'd been. Thinking that Russ was laughing at him, the Lion punched Russ unconscious. When Russ awoke he sought out the Lion to make amends, but he had already departed with his fleet. Though the two would work together again, the Lion was rather unforgiving (oh the irony) towards Russ. To Russ the Lion seemed the antagonist. After all, in the halls of Fenris a brawl between angry brothers was hardly unusual. When the fight ended you'd toast each other and drink away the bruises and move on. To the Lion Russ seemed at fault. After all, in the knightly orders of Caliban striking one's brothers was not done: petty infighting could not be tolerated when monsters slavered at the gate. As is so often the case between brothers, both were at fault and neither would back down. To this day the Space Wolves and Dark Angels (and their successor Chapters) will fight (usually) non-lethal honor duels to "settle the score," though "the score" has never really been agreed on. Occasionally tensions between the two Chapters will boil over into open warfare which is often caused by <strike>Fallen Angels</strike> TRAITORS UNASSOCIATED WITH THE DARK ANGELS hiding amidst the Space Wolves' protectorate worlds, using the tensions to their advantage. Finally it's worth noting that even though the two (former) Legions often fight, they never show that rivalry to the wider Imperium, and they'll set aside their rivalry whenever they need to [[get shit done]] together. Their rivalry is in question now, though, as after the Great Rift opened the Unforgiven came and beat the shit out of Magnus’s army invading Fenris. Originally they thought the sudden explosion of Wulfen numbers meant that the Space Wolves either fell to Chaos, were too mutated to recover and needed a mercy killing, or that there would hardly be any left and just Wulfen remained. Unlike when the last time they showed up at Fenris and attacked the Space Wolves in the belief the Wolves had turned or something, this time the Dark Angels were wary of being used and found out that their assumption was wrong before they could fuck up and thus avoided epic team-killing and instead the First Legion slammed into the daemons and traitor Marines like the Emperor’s own banhammer.

*'''Ultramarines and the Word Bearers''' - The Ultramarines are pissed off at the Word Bearers for a great many things: 1) They turned traitor during what was supposed to be an exercise to patch up their poor relations after the Castigation of Lorgar; 2) They used millions of cultists as meat shields during the [[Battle of Calth]], which the Ultramarines saw as dishonorable and disgusting; 3) They almost destroyed Calth; and finally 4) The battle of Calth was the first battle of the Heresy for the Ultramarines as a whole, meaning that while they were chilling and waiting to go kill some Orks, the Word Bearers suddenly turned around and slaughtered a fuckload of them without warning. They managed to pull through in the end and win by the skins of their teeth, but it was a gigantic blow to the Ultramarines, who now had to fight off a vengeful Legion out of nowhere with almost half their Legion dead, their fleet crippled, ''and the fucking sun of the planet they were on flooding it with deadly radiation''. Not to mention the giant Warp storm that cut them off from the rest of the Imperium, which coincidentally formed at the exact time the Word Bearers attacked...

*'''Ultramarines and the Alpha Legion''' - The Alpha Legion led the Ultramarines halfway across the galaxy on a fool's errand that ultimately ensured they were nowhere near the Imperial Palace during the Horus Heresy. Adding insult to injury, they inflicted enormous casualties on the Ultramarines, and though they succeeded in killing Alpharius (or did they?), the Alpha Legion's command structure was so decentralized that it did little to affect them.

*'''Ultramarines and the Black Templars (also the Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists, the Space Wolves, and the Salamanders)''' - When Roboute Guilliman tried to force the Codex Astartes on the Space Marine Legions after the Horus Heresy, some Legions - most notably the Imperial Fists - outright refused, not wanting their legions to be broken down into smaller Chapters. Rogal Dorn called Guilliman a coward, while Guilliman called Dorn a rebel. The Space Wolves and the Salamanders ended up backing Dorn, while the Raven Guard and the White Scars supported Guilliman. The rivalry became so intense that the Imperial Navy even fired on the Imperial Fist strike cruiser ''Terrible Angel'', and it seemed that the Space Marines would war against one another once again. Finally, Rogal Dorn yielded to prevent another war and broke his legion into the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists. As the Ultramarines still were wary of the loyalties of the Imperial Fists and their successors, Sigismund - the first Emperor's Champion and the man that Dorn had appointed to be the Black Templars Chapter Master - declared a 10,000 year crusade in the Emperor's name to prove their loyalty. Even though tensions have since cooled between the Ultramarines and the other Chapters, the Ultramarines are still suspicious about (read: sticking their nose into the business of) the Black Templars as they still refuse to conform to the Codex Astartes, and won't tell the Ultramarines just how huge their Chapter is. In short, Sigismund and Leman Russ told Guilliman where he can shove his Codex Astartes, and he's all anal pained about it.

*'''Ultramarines and the Iron Warriors''' - [[Uriel Ventris]] and Pasanius Lysane, of the Ultramarines, were sworn to a Death Oath by their Chapter Master Marneus Calgar as punishment for violating the Codex Astartes (specifically, because they had abandoned the rest of their company to assist a Deathwatch Kill-team during the Battle of Tarsus Ultra). Their mission: find and destroy the [[Daemonculaba]]. The quest took the Ultramarines pair to the nightmarish [[Daemon World]] of [[Medrengard]], within the [[Eye of Terror]] itself. Medrengard was the homeworld of the Iron Warriors Traitor Legion. It was also the location of [[Honsou]], the evil Iron Warriors Warsmith who oversaw the Daemonculaba project from within his fortress, Khalan-Ghol. The Ultramarines were successful in destroying the Daemonculaba, and were also able to bring ruination to Khalan-Ghol and Honsou's forces. Uriel Ventris also managed to shoot Honsou in the head. Unfortunately, the Warsmith survived the headshot. Upon realizing the extent of the damage Uriel had caused, Honsou swore revenge and also the utter annihilation of [[Ultramar]]. Honsou was aware that before he ever dealt with Uriel Ventris, the Ultramarines spent years and countless resources and lives to repel a [[Tyranid]] incursion at Tarsis Ultra. Honsou thus unleashed a plan which destroyed every living thing on Tarsis Ultra, and reduced the planet itself to a lifeless rock. Destroying the planet provided no strategic gain to the Iron Warriors; Honsou carried out his horrific genocide simply to spite Uriel Ventris and the Ultramarines. Following this, the Iron Warriors use an army won from the [[Red Corsairs]] to free the [[Daemon Prince]] [[M'kar]], and invade [[Ultramar]]. Though the "Bloodborn" army is beaten back, the Ultramarines lost over one third of their battle-brothers in the attempt, leaving them open to attack for the first time since the First Tyrannic War and unable to properly participate in the Imperial counter-offensive for the [[13th Black Crusade]]. The Ultramarines and the Iron Warriors have thus become bitter enemies-- with Uriel Ventris and Honsou in particular becoming sworn foes.

*'''Ultramarines and the Hammers of Dorn''' - The Hammers adhere rigidly to the Codex Astartes, to the point where they point out any deviations from the codex by the Ultramarines. According to the Hammers of Dorn, Guilliman may have had the genius to pen the codex, but the sons of Dorn are the only ones that can bring out its full potential.

*'''Ultramarines and the Minotaurs''' - While the Minotaurs are hated by everyone the Ultramarines have a special grudge against them, due to the Euxine Incident of the Macharian Heresy. It just so happened that the loyalist Doom Warriors and Inceptors chapters were busy [[skub|fighting each other over a matter of honor]], and [[lawful stupid|refused to stop and aid Imperial forces]]. The Minotaurs were sent to quell the dispute, which they did in their [[rip and tear|usual manner]]. They attacked both sides in force, nearly destroying them wholesale. The Doom Warriors were badly beaten and forced into a barely-organized retreat almost immediately. The Inceptors weren't so lucky. With no way to withdraw they suffered the full onslaught of the Minotaurs and finally surrendered with less then 100 Marines left. The honored 2nd [[Founding]] Chapter was subsequently [[Blood Ravens|robbed of most of their Chapter relics, the Minotaurs stealing them right off their dead bodies]], including their flagship, a relic of the Great Crusade. This brought them a great deal of hatred from the Ultramarines and their successors, who have since forbidden the Minotaurs from entering Ultramar and seek vengeance whenever the opportunity arises.

*'''Blood Angels and the World Eaters''' - Both constantly compete for superiority in melee combat and also the angriest motherfucking berserker full of rage.

*'''Raven Guard and White Scars''' - Supposedly dates back to a huge fucking argument between [[Corax]] and [[Jaghatai Khan]], where the two had a massive spat over the proper use of rapid-reaction forces. Corax insisted they be used as part of infiltration and deep-strike units, and Jaghatai insisted they were to be on the front lines - the two never really saw eye-to-eye, Corax seeing Jaghatai as devastatingly effective, but with the tactical sense of a drunken Space Wolf, and Jaghatai seeing Corax as too cautious and tactical for proper man-fighting. The two would eventually make up after the Horus Heresy, and both the Raven Guard and White Scars would be forced to ally on several occasions - most notably during the infamous Hunt for Voldorius - but an intense rivalry over whose fast-attack doctrine is better persists to this day, and the two factions are still kind of assholes to one another as a result.

*'''Blood Angels and the Black Legion''' - Considering that Horus killed their Primarch (who, before the Heresy, were closer than any other Primarchs) which resulted in them suffering from the Black Rage which eventually causes every descendant of Sanguinius to have visions of being killed by Horus, the Blood Angels probably despise the Black Legion to the point of pure obsession. Also as a rule, the Blood Angels have a special hatred for the [[Abaddon|owner]] of the '''Talon of Horus''', since it killed their <s>father</s> sexy angel daddy.

*'''World Eaters and the Grey Knights''' - Angron was banished back to the Warp by Grey Knights during the first battle of Armageddon, which resulted in the World Eaters' defeat. Angron has since been resurfacing, and has sworn revenge.

*'''Raven Guard and the Black Legion (also the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion)''' - The Raven Guard were the second hardest hit by the Drop Site Massacre of Istvaan V ''(the Salamanders got hit worse, but there weren't really enough survivors to hold a grudge)''. Though all of the traitor legions except the Thousand Sons were involved, the Raven Guard holds a special hatred for the former Luna Wolves and Horus, a hatred which has transferred over to [[Abaddon]] and the Black Legion. That said, the Raven Guard go absolutely murderous on any of the Legions who turned on them at Istvaan V.

*'''Grey Knights and the Space Wolves''' - Officially, there really isn't a rivalry at all. Because officially the Grey Knights don't exist. Unofficially, during the First War for Armageddon, Grey Knights were ordered to fire on dozens of civilian ships because there was a fraction of a shadow of smidgen of a chance that they were tainted by Chaos. The Space Wolves decided this was pretty dickish, and protected the civilians. Naturally, the Inquisition made it worse. Then old [[Logan Grimnar|Loggy]] chops a Grey Knight Grand Master's head off and kills four Justicars, the ugly downward spiral of '''''WTF!?'''''s started there. Eventually, an understanding was reached where the remaining civvies weren't murdered but just mindwiped a bit and Inquisitorial ships would never again come to Fenris or the Wolves would tear them a new asshole. Officially unofficially, the Grey Knights are angry that another Chapter was given even shittier writing than they got.

*'''Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors''' - Imagine their rivalry akin to World War I. The Imperial Fists love making defenses, while the Iron Warriors love destroying stuff. Perturabo hated Rogal Dorn for being Daddy's golden boy and his constant boasting of the fortifications of the Imperial Palace. Perturabo eventually bested Dorn and the Imperial Fists by making a huge space fortress that Dorn then tried to attack in an effort to bring Perturabo to justice (known as the 'Iron Cage'). The fortress was nothing but a decoy with inwardly facing gun-lines, meaning the entire thing was a trap and wound up cutting down enormous numbers of the Imperial Fists before they could retreat. Each side was too strong without both of them completely destroying each other. Dorn is still perturbed to this day by the event.

*'''Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves''' - The Space Wolves despised the Red Sorcerers for their practice of magic, and initially didn't question a goddamned thing after Horus had intentionally given the Wolves incorrect orders (to destroy the Thousand Sons, as opposed to taking Magnus to stand trial). Perhaps the dumbest part of their rivalry is that when they actually showed up at Prospero, Leman Russ felt guilty about just slaughtering the Thousand Sons, so he tried to call Magnus to ask him to stand down so that they could take him in peacefully. Magnus, having assumed Leman Russ was here to kill him had refused to take any calls (and not only prevented his Legion from communicating with the Wolves, but gathered them all so they'd be easier to slaughter) which ended up pissing off the Wolves again and ensuring the Thousand Sons were nearly completely wiped out. Despite this being entirely preventable by their Primarch (on top of causing their fall to Tzeentch) and engineered by Horus (with the Wolves being completely ignorant about it) they still blame the Wolves anyway instead of those [[Derp|other two]]. The Sons would nonetheless resurface to attack the Space Wolves: they led a siege on their homeworld and succeeded in causing considerable damage before being driven off; during this offensive they managed to destroy a series of laboratories, including one that held an entire generation worth of the Space Wolves' Gene-Seed (as well as the cure for the Wulfen curse), and Magnus himself was responsible for killing the Space Wolves' Chapter Master.

*'''White Scars and the Space Wolves''' - Thousand Sons were the biggest bros of the Scars during the Great Crusade, their Primarchs were total bros too, so when they figured out that Wolves destroyed Prospero, killed most of the (still totally loyal) Thousand Sons and Magnus forced the surviving ones into going heretic (and the Wolves don't even feel any guilt or remorse about their role), none were surprised the Scars kept a huge grudge against the Space Yiffs. Also during the Crusade, the Scars hated being compared to the Wolves because of the apparent link to barbarism. The Wolves themselves also have a thing or two to say about the multiple times Scars hadn't come to help when they could, starting from when they left the Wolves alone against an entire Alpha Legion fleet.

*'''Iron Hands and the Emperor's Children''' - Prior to the Heresy, Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus were '''extremely''' close friends. Their bond ran so deep that even as Fulgrim declared his intentions of joining the forces of Chaos to Ferrus, asking him to join him in overthrowing the Emperor, Ferrus couldn't open fire on his brother's ship. Naturally, this had some rather nasty effects in the long term, not least of which was Fulgrim decapitating the Gorgon with his own sword. The Iron Hands did not take kindly to this. Also, getting all repressed and logical over the next 10,000 years caused Slaanesh to take breaking them as a challenge.

*'''World Eaters and The Emperor's Children''' - In addition to following [[Khorne|rival]] [[Slaanesh|deities]], the Emperor's Children lost huge numbers of troops to the World Eaters at [[Battle of Skalathrax|Skalathrax]]. Really, all you need to know is that [[Kharn]] and a Flamer were involved, and that before this incident, the World Eaters were a much more coordinated force.
**'''World Eaters and World Eaters''' - This event caused the World Eaters to break up into warbands.

*'''Emperor's Children and the Iron Warriors''' - Given that Fulgrim tried to sacrifice Peturabo's soul to Slaanesh to fuel his ascension to Daemon Prince...
** '''Emperor's Children and absolutely everyone else''' - Due to their disturbing habits of enslaving populations and/or stealing other Legion's servants to be used as... [[Slaanesh|''partners'']] for [[/d/|some memorable parties]], absolutely everyone tend to avoid them like walking STD's.

*'''Dark Angels and FOUL TRAITORS''' - Do ''not'' get between them and a [[Fallen Angels|FOUL TRAITOR TO THE IMPERIUM WHO CERTAINLY HAS NO CONNECTION TO THE SONS OF THE LION]]. It can only end in tears.

*'''Thousand Sons and World Eaters:''' Khorne hates sorcery, and so the World Eaters hate the Sons. Sadly for the World Eaters, they're usually well out of the Sons' league; the Thousand Sons tend to pick conflicts selectively, which means the followers of Khorne have rarely even had the chance to fight them. Also, it doesn't do much to appease Khorne's bloodlust, since there is no blood or skulls to offer, just dust. Then again, there are some exceptions, namely [[Iskandar Khayon]] and [[Lheorvine Ukris]], who were total bros, and they were the guys that founded the [[Black Legion]] along with [[Abaddon]].

*'''Blood Ravens and EVERYONE:''' Apart from Captain Titus of the Ultramarines, almost every Marine Chapter mentioned in having contact with the Blood Ravens have not been on good terms. Most likely due to their rampant kleptomania. This animosity extends beyond the Space Marines, and into the rest of the Imperium as well; Imperial Guard forces hate them for exterminating the Kronus Liberators, the Mechanicus hates them stealing archeotech, the Ecclisiarchy hates them for their psykers, and the Inquisition doesn't like them for their secrecy.

*'''Blood Angels and the Emperor's Children''' - [[Fabius Bile]] stole the blood of Sanguinius from the Blood Angels' Fortress-Monastery as part of a plot to make a clone of the God-Emperor. As the neophyte initiation process for the Blood Angels requires the consumption of some of the aforementioned blood, the Blood Angels and all their Successor Chapters have sworn to find and kill Bile at all costs. (For a while, it looked like they succeeded—that is, until they found out that Bile had begun cloning ''himself''.)

*'''Iron Hands and Raven Guard and Salamanders''' - The Iron Hands are still pissy about the whole [[Drop Site Massacre|Isstvan V]] thing. They believe that had the Salamanders and Raven Guard followed their Primarch Ferrus Manus they would have won at the Dropsite Massacre. Completely overlooking the fact that they were surprised, surrounded, outgunned and outnumbered nearly 3 to 1. They don't like the Raven Guard in particular for their use of stealth and subterfuge, and also for having a pretty much identical color scheme. The Salamanders aren't too keen about the Iron Hands belief of "purging the weak" and usual disregard for civilian casualties and sometimes their own Marines. The Raven Guard and Salamanders never pulled any of this bullshit with each other, though, and remain close allies, if for nothing other than the Hands constantly being dicks to both of them.

*'''Marines Malevolent and Salamanders''' - What happens when the galaxy's [[That Guy|greatest assholes]] meet the galaxy's greatest humanitarian Marines? Hilarity, that's what. The hate fueled rivalry that was first widely known came during the Third War for Armageddon where a squad of Marines Malevolent used their [[Whirlwind|Whirlwinds]] to fire upon an Ork-occupied camp, when they ''knew'' that the camp contained hundreds of Imperial civilian hostages, mostly women and children. Oh and guess what their response was, something to do with "Meh, we only serve the Emprah only" and "We didn't know there were ''"that"'' many civilians." As you can imagine, this both horrified and [[Rage|royally pissed off]] the Salamanders, and when these two Chapters met again after the war, Chapter Master Tu'Shan, to put it simply, bitch-slapped the Captain of the Marines Malevolent in front of ''everybody in the city,'' prompting much sniggering and cheering among both Guardsmen and civilians alike. Because of such reaction to complete dickwads, the Salamanders were considered as the '''Heroes of Armageddon''' by popular vote.

*'''Aurora Chapter and the Emperor's Spears''' - Fought each other over matters of honor and the Ultramarines judged Aurora Chapter was right, which soured relations of the Emperor's Spears with their primogenitor. Tensions have since lessened but the two Chapters still refuse to fight together.

*'''Marines Malevolent and Everyone Else''' - 'Nuff said.

*'''Salamanders and Sons of Medusa''' - During the [[Badab War]] the Salamanders, being friends with the [[Executioners]] chapter (who had been on the wrong side of the fighting), prevented the [[Sons of Medusa]] from taking revenge for the Strike Cruiser Warspite, lost with all hands at the hands of the Executioners, after the Executioners surrendered. The Sons of Medusa have sworn off all contact with the Salamanders and basically implied they would rather see the Imperium lose wars than help a single Salamander live.

*'''Iron Hands and Successors (especially Red Talons) and Sons of Medusa'''- The Sons of Medusa were formed from Iron Hands and successor Chapter Marines except those from the [[Red Talons]] who professed their belief in the Moirae Doctrine during the [[Nova Terra Interregnum]]'s Moirae Schism. The Red Talons killed all of their schismatics but all other Schismatics essentially formed their own Chapter, which was judged pure by the restored [[High Lords of Terra]] near the end of the [[Age of Apostasy]] and given official recognition outside of normal Chapter Foundings as the Sons of Medusa. The mainstream believers in the [[Omnissiah]] amidst the Iron Hands and all other successors obviously have serious problem with this, but can't act against the Sons of Medusa due to them being officially recognized as a Chapter. Further, the Sons of Medusa outperformed all other Iron Hands successors during the major Crusades whose ending marked the beginning of the [[Age of Redemption]], formally earning the respect of Imperial military bureaucracy and erasing any suspicions over their being specially recognized rather than normally founded. The Sons of Medusa for their part see the mainstream Iron Hands and successors as fools who cling to ancient doctrine over the reality of the situation at hand.

*'''Lamenters and Reality Itself''' - Again, enough said.

*'''Fire Angels and Space Sharks'''- The [[Fire Angels]] refused to fight alongside the [[Space Sharks]] during the Badab War, implying some bad blood between the chapters though the severity is unknown.

==Bros To the End==
As there are several Chapters and Legions who despise one another, there's a few that get along damned well.

*'''Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands''' - True since the Great Crusade, where these three found they worked extremely well in-concert - The Raven Guard acting as the advance and cutting off critical locations and eliminating command units, the Salamanders in providing the heavy punch to follow this up, and the Iron Hands providing the tide of firepower to support both. That being said, the Iron Hands' relationship with the Raven Guard and the Salamanders has deteriorated since the Horus Heresy; they believe that had their allies not retreated from the Drop Site Massacre, Ferrus Manus would not have been killed and Horus would have been defeated before he could pose a threat to the Imperium. (It doesn't take a genius to realize that this would have just led to the complete annihilation of their Legions in practice.) It's not really clear if the Hands still fight alongside their former best bros in the 41st millennium, but given the whole "feeding a Raven Guard company to psyker Orks for lulz" thing, it doesn't seem likely.

*'''Salamanders and Blood Angels''' - Though the Salamanders are friendly with most Chapters anyway (and them hating you being a good indication of you being a huge asshole), they're particularly tight with the Blood Angels. Both Chapters are some of the few in the Imperium that actually go out of their way for civilians and put them before pride and glory in battle. This became particularly evident during the [[Armageddon|Second War of Armageddon]], when both fought side-by-side against the [[Orks]] and when [[Dante]] publicly honored [[Tu'Shan]] for his bravery during the war and bitch-slapping the Marines Malevolent Captain.

*'''Imperial Fists and their successors''' - Doctrinal differences and martial angst aside, the sons of Dorn have always been on good terms with each other. Whenever a crisis threatens Terra that is too great for a single Chapter, the Imperial Fists and their successors unite to put an end to that threat, such as [[The War of The Beast]], and the [[Age of Apostasy|Second Siege of Terra]] to put [[Goge Vandire]] in his place. Every century, they also come together for an epic swordfighting tournament called the [[Feast of Blades]].

*'''Blood Angels, White Scars and Imperial Fists''' - All three fought and died in the defence of the Imperial Palace. Broforce = very yes.

*'''Ultramarines and Imperial Fists''' - Similar to the Space Wolves and Dark Angels above, beef about the Codex aside, the two Chapters have always been on very good terms. (I guess the above segment regarding the Ultramarines firing on the Imperial Fists ship is just swept under the rug).

*'''Dark Angels and Dark Angel successors''' - THE DARK ANGELS HAVE NO SUCH RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR SUCCESSOR CHAPTERS. RUMORS THAT DARK ANGEL SUCCESSORS ARE STILL UNDER DIRECT COMMAND FROM THEIR PARENT CHAPTER, EFFECTIVELY STILL MAKING THEM FUNCTION AS A LEGION, ARE OBVIOUSLY LIES AND SLANDER FABRICATED BY THE FOUL HERETICS OF CHAOS, AS SUCH AN ACT WOULD BREAK THE GUIDELINES OF THE CODEX ASTARTES, WHICH LOYAL CHAPTERS WOULD NOT DO-{{BLAM}}

*'''Astral Claws, Lamenters and Mantis Warriors {Pre-Badab War}''' - When the [[Maelstrom|Maelstrom zone]] needed to be conquered, the [[High Lords of Terra]] create the "Maelstrom Warders", an alliance formed by all these chapters (and the Charnel Guards, who later were withdrawn) to pacify and control the sector, and they got shit done! At some point, the [[Chapter Master]] of the Astral Claws, [[Lugft Huron]], believed the Imperium wasn't helping enough, declared himself "the Tyrant of Badab" and [[Heresy|secession from the Imperium]] (also just before this time, the Astral Claws absorbed the final few survivors of the Tiger Claws, their successor Chapter, after a catastrophic battle and their last fleet going MIA). Both the Lamenters and the Mantis Warriors followed suit, as they were both under command of the Astral Claws and were honorbound to them, but as well some agreeing that the Imperium was indeed bullying the Astral Claws for no reason. [[Badab War|The rest is history]]. After that sordid affair was over with, the Lamenters and the Mantis Warriors were fucked over sent on century long penitence crusades without the right to recruit until it was over (though the Mantis Warriors were allowed to recruit while in penitence after being reduced to 100 Marines). Given that the galaxy [[Great Rift|split right in half]] 13 years before their penance was to be over, it was probably quietly lifted before they were reinforced by [[Primaris Marines]]. Given that the Mantis Warriors have a unit specifically dedicated to hunting the [[Red Corsairs]], the former alliance is quite dead and gone.

*'''Thousand Sons and Word Bearers {Pre-Heresy.}''' - Lorgar was the closest Primarch-buddy of Magnus, due to the scholarly nature of both. They went separate ways after the Heresy though, probably because Magnus learned who really was behind the Burning of Prospero all along.

*'''Thousand Sons and White Scars {Pre-Heresy.}''' - As above, The Khan respected his scholarly brother and would have helped him if he was present at Nikaea.

*'''Iron Hands and Emperor's Children {Pre-Heresy.}''' - The culmination of the aforementioned close friendship between the Gorgon and the Phoenix would be a tragic foreshadowing of the fate of the Warmaster and the Great Angel's friendship.

*'''Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and Blood Angels {Pre-Heresy.}''' - Horus and Sanguinius were the closest two Primarchs before the Heresy, and this extended to their Legions. This went to the point where Horus still wished he had Sanguinius on his side after having given himself over to the Dark Gods fully, and Sanguinius was willing to die if it meant that his brother could be saved even if only through death. This just makes the rivalry between the Black Legion and The Angelic Host that much more sad.

*'''Ultramarines and Genesis Chapter''' - Super close ties due to Genesis Chapter being Ultramarines reserve for Marines. They patrol the galaxy together.

* '''Emperor’s Spears, Celestial Lions, and Black Templars''' - the first two stemming from their tripartite brotherhood as the Adeptus Vaelari alongside the defunct Star Scorpions (who’s survivors are now their arch nemesis as the Chaos warband called the Pure) in Elara’s Veil while the latter two are fellow Sons of Dorn. The tragic death of thing is the Lions have a hit-me target painted on their forehead after having major disagreements with the Inquisition over collateral damage. While they’ve avoided extinction due to help from the Spears and the Templars, all three are now neck deep in the Veil with the Pure’s Exilarchy overwhelming half of the region after the Great Rift isolated them from the Imperium.

==Official /tg/ Space Marine Chapters==
[[File:Cloten.jpg|300px|right|thumb|THE RAPE TRAIN HAS NO BRAKES!!!]]
One of /tg/'s favorite pastimes is creating new and exciting Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes based on silly concepts. [[/tg/|/tg/'s]] [[/tg/'s homebrews|homebrew]] Chapters include:

*[[Adeptus Orthodontus]]
*[[Angry Marines]]
*[[Butthurt Marines]]
*[[The Wonderful Misadventures of: Inquisitor Fob and the Classy Marines|Classy Marines]]
*[[Comedy Marines]]
*[[Disco Marines]]
*[[Dorf Marines]]
*[[Drunk Marines]]
*[[Sigmar Marines|Emperor's Hammers]]
*[[Emperor's Paragons]]
*[[Galactic Partridges]]
*[[Golden Aquilas]]
*[[Inside-Out Marines]]
*[[Lazy Marines]]
*[[Manly Marines]]
*[[Metal Marines]]
*[[Mexicarines]]
*[[Mole Marines]]
*[[Obstinate Marines]]
*[[Pathetic Marines]]
*[[Pretty Marines]]
*[[Reasonable Marines]]
*[[Red Skeletons]]
*[[Scary Marines]]
*[[Silly Marines]]
*[[Sleepy Marines|Dream Warriors]]
*[[Star Shanks]]
*[[Elderly Marines]]
'''As you can see, /tg/ has a problem with creativity.'''

===Second Founding of /tg/ Space Marine Chapters===
After the release of Deathwatch: Rites of Battle, /tg/ quickly flung itself at the Chapter creation rules and began to produce a second wave of /tg/ Chapters. Noticeably more serious business than the previous Chapters, these Spess Mahreens range from the widely popular Emperor's Nightmare, to the derpy Flesh Helms.

*[[Abyssal Jaws]] - Institutionally sharky.
*[[Argent Strix]] - Institutionally hungry.
*[[Black Locks]] - Institutionally corsair.
*[[Blood Jaguars]] - Institutionally Aztec.
*[[Brotherhood of the Gauntlet]] - Institutionally Arabic Ghazi.
*[[Brotherhood of the Megalith]] - Institutionally rocky.
*[[Conservators]] - Institutionally poor and under-equipped. It's what happens when you piss of the Mechanicus.
*[[Deep Ones (Tiji Sector)|Deep Ones]] - Institutionally aquatic and environmentally resistant.
*[[Desert Fangs]] - Institutionally [[Angry Marines]] taken seriously.
*[[Dionysus Revelers]] - Institutionally cannibal drunks.
*[[Dune Walkers]] - Institutionally Arabic Nomads.
*[[Emperor's Bears]] - Institutionally lost.
*[[Emperor's Nightmare]] - Institutionally [[Sleepy Marines]] taken seriously.
*[[Eyes of Mordred]] - Institutionally [[Scary Marines]] taken seriously.
*[[Flesh Helms]] - Institutionally [[Imperial Guard]] of the Adeptus Astartes.
*[[Guardians Exemplar]] - Institutionally equal to the [[Marines Malevolent]].
*[[Ice Serpents]] - Institutionally [[Baneblade|mechanized]] for war.
*[[Ice Wraiths]] - Institutionally [[Awesome|cyborg-ice-vampire-yeti-riders]].
*[[Knights Inductor]] - Institutionally [[Reasonable Marines]] taken seriously. Also [[Mary Sues|MARY SUES]], don't mention them on /tg/. You'll just [[troll|cause a shitstorm]]
*[[Knights Repentant]] - Institutionally UTTERLY LOYAL and true pre-heresy [[Word Bearers]].
*[[Lumbermarines]] - Institutionally lumberjacks.
*[[Rising Sons]] - Institutionally BANZAI!!!
*[[Screaming Eagles]] - Institutionally 'MURICAN!!! FUCK YEAH!
*[[Talons of Corvus]] - Institutionally a more heroic [[Command and Conquer|Nod]].
*[[The Sovereign's Appraisal]] - Institutionally loyal and sympathetic despite mutations, being declared renegade, [[Slaanesh]] trying to seduce them and the [[Ultramarines]] and their successors trying to terminate them.
*[[War Brothers]] - Institutionally not giving a damn about what the [[Dark Angels]] want from them.
*[[The Adeptus Estates]] - Institutionally home building.
*[[Mourning Sons]] - Institutionally shedding [[Fist of the North Star|Manly Tears]].
*[[Star Krakens]] - Institutionally Viking, yet not [[Space Wolves|THAT]] Viking. Plus one of the biggest of shits that /tg/ has done right. AND HOW!
*[[Space Knights]] - Institutionally dour.
'''The second wave WOULD show improvements to creativity... If they didn't use a RPG system as a crutch, among other issues.'''

== Trivia ==

The name Adeptus Astartes is usually portrayed as meaning Star Adepts. However the name "Astarte" is actually a goddess of fertility, love, war, sex and sexuality from the Eastern Mediterranean regions during the [[Bronze Age]]. Somewhat meta considering that the Emprah was also from that region ''(Anatolia)'' around the same time period. [[HERESY|He may have been horny and/or romantically interested]] [[Rule 63|in the idea of a badass God-Empress]] and [[What|named his sons to symbolically show this]] using a language that only he and [[Ollanius Pius]] [[Derp|are the speakers of]] besides dead people and three of [[Khorne|the]] [[Nurgle|Ruinous]] [[Tzeentch|Powers]] (unlikely given the Emperor was anti-theistic and anti-religious), or this is just the Emperor keeping himself sane by engaging in humor he knows only one loyal person will get, which does not include his last [[Malcador the Sigillite|two]] [[Companion|friends]]. [[Grimdark|No wonder the Emprah doesn't smile much.]] [[Derp|Ironic given that the Astartes is an all-male organization.]]

However, much as with the [[Arkhan Land|Land]] Raider, a more prosaic explanation was provided in the novel ''The Great Work'', which features flashbacks from the memories of Ezekiel Sedayne (the guy who headed up the development team for the Black Carapace). The project’s coordinator was a mortal woman named Amar ''Astarte'', who was the most accomplished geneticist of the time outside of the Emepror and the Selenite Gene-witches. Following the theft of the Primarchs, Astartes feared that the Space Marines, without the supply of genetic materials from their Primarchs, would fall into deterioration like the Thunder Warriors. And so she blew up the Legions' gene-vault alongside herself; however, the Emperor had already known of this and made several copies of the vault elsewhere.

Given the current talent writing for GW, we'll eventually hear of somebody named "Adeptus" who also worked on the project (or even [[Adeptus Terra|all government organization as a whole]]); wouldn't be any dumber than some [[Erda|other things they chose to do.]]

==See Also==
*[[Beakie]] - When the Spehss mahrens were awesome looking.

*[[Chaplain]] - The spiritual leaders of the space marines.

*[[Female Space Marines]]- Records officially decommissioned and terminated by the [[Inquisition]] on the grounds of [[Heresy]], there is nothing here trust us. E-Commissars will blam you from your monitor when attempting to access said heretical records.

*[[Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine]]- The official game of [[Pauldrons]] (despite the fact that the pauldrons in this game are smaller than they should be)

*[[Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Space_Marines_(9E)|Space Marines Tactics]]

*[[Guidelines of the Space Marines]]

*Despite the considerable amount of hate at the space marines nowadays, [[The World Engine|they can still be awesome.]]

*[[Bretonnia#Knightly Hierarchy|Grail Knights]] - The Warhammer Fantasy equivalent.

*[[Stormcast Eternals]] (AKA, [[Ground Marines]]), their [[Warhammer: Age of Sigmar]] equivalent.

*[[Terminator]]

*[[Apothecary]]

*[[Techmarine]]

*[[Librarian]]

*[[Scout]]

*[[Kill Marine]] of Deathwatch

*[[Codex Astartes]]

*[[Space Marine Chapter]]

*[[Space Marine Chapter Creation Tables]]

*[[Renegade Space Marine Chapter Creation Table]] - For when you hate both the Imperium and Chaos.

*[[Legion Consul]]

==External Links==
* [https://youtu.be/XQwTyGeoprA The Emperor's speech on the Space Marines]
* [https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Space_Marines WH40k Wikia on Astartes]
* [http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine Lexicanum on Space Marines]
* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Marine_(Warhammer_40,000) Wikipedia Article]
* [http://wackycamper.deviantart.com/art/Space-Marine-Commandments-88741651 The Commandments of the Space Marine]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13nM17TV_sU/ Rap song dedicated to the mighty-ass space marines.]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMzWrDSNN4Y/ Another rap dedicated to the mighty-ass space marines.]
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzPuK1vib_c Emperor's quote about the Space Marines in a remix done from If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device glory.]
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shRHZLheEJI What is to be a space marine, in thrash metal version!]

==Gallery==
<center>
<gallery>
File:Xenos sighted.jpg
File:Pingas.png
File:Pyramidheadspacemarine.jpg
File:Troll Emperor.jpg
File:New Marine.jpg
Image:1227373581722.gif
Image:Femalemini.jpg
File:Correction.JPG|Drill Abbots '''hate''' him!
File:Stuffy.jpg|Build a Marine Workshop
File:Pauldronius.png|[[Pauldron]]ius
File:Brother Sergeant Aznable.jpg|'''EEECK!'''
image:steelrain.jpg|Steel Rain in action!
File:Reasonablemarine.png|Don't fuck with [[Reasonable Marines]].
Image:LEGO_SpaceMarines_by_Jerac.jpg|Brick by brick we shall conquer.
File:1285382081001.jpg|Apparently, marines '''DO''' in fact have tiny heads.
File:Sperm Marine.jpg|I'm in ur w0mb, fertulizan yo eggz
File:Amuricuh.jpg|What historians didn't want you to believe
File:Yes they can.jpg|[[Skub|A matter of some contention.]]
File:False.jpg|Taking a page from their fallen brothers.
Image:Primarchs_as_teen_girls.png|<span style="color:#FF55FF;" color="pink">'''[[Rule 63]] Primarchs are the most popular girls at [[HS40K]]'''
File:Gearing up.jpg|A rare glimpse at a Space Marine without his awesome pauldrons on
File:Armour of Bulk.png|Space Marines and ridiculous suits of armour go hand in hand.
File:BruceAstartes.jpg|Brother Campbell brings a world into Imperial compliance.
File:SpessM.jpg|Indrick Boreale nearly turned Space Marines into the laughing stock of the entire franchise.
File:Angels of Derp.jpg|Space Marines as depicted during the dark ages of GW art (aka 2nd Edition)
Image:1228559892410.jpg|The scary thing is that this isn't fan art, seriously, this was an official GW product.
File:Warhammer 40k space marines we'll find your mom mother storytellers storytime missing child lost little girl.jpg|Now gather around children as I recount to you the exploits of the Emperor's chosen...
Image:1207335921499.jpg|The Space Wizards of Warpwarts have mastered the art of profecting the power of the warp through small wooden sticks. How they refrain from breaking them is a mystery.
Image:Horny Marine.gif|'''Hump the heretic, penetrate the mutant, cum in the alie-'''{{BLAM}} {{BLAM|SLAANESH WORSHIPPER!}}
</gallery>
</center>

{{Imperium}}
{{Marines-Forces}}
{{Marines-Official}}
{{Marines-Characters}}
{{WH40k-Factions}}

Kor'sarro Khan

2021-12-10T05:17:38Z

2001:8003:1D0D:301:83:B080:83CF:C1CF:

[[File:Kor_sarro_Khan_by_MajesticChicken.jpg|300px|thumb|right|Shock and awe baby.]]
Kor'sarro Khan is what you would get if [[Awesome|Genghis Khan rode a motorcycle.]]
He is the captain of the [[White Scars]]' 3rd Company, and the Master of the Hunt for the White Scars. He wields a special relic blade called Moonfang and rides a bike called Moondrakken. [[Sammael]] wishes he was this cool naturally, and has since overcompensated by nixing the last Imperial Jetbike, rocking an AP2 Sword, Eternal Warrior, and a fucking plasma cannon... on second thought, Khan might need to step up his game just in case, though the man himself doesn't mind as much as one would think.

Since he is technically a Captain, he uses the "all Bike squads become Troops choices" special rule so long as he is on his bike Moondrakken. As Master of the Hunt he gets D3 extra victory point if he slays the enemy Warlord in a challenge. Other than that, he is basically a normal Captain with Furious Charge (which he does not confer to his unit), a Power Sword which also causes Instant Death on to-wound rolls of 6. and the ability to make D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks with Moondrakken. But, more importantly, as the Master of the Hunt, if he is the Warlord he gives every White Scars bike unit or unit embarked in a Rhino or Razorback [[Awesome|the Scout special rule]], which also allows them to outflank, consistently altering the way your Detachment work and transforming it into a [[White Scars|fast and unpredictable army]].

Kor'sarro, from the times he shows up in stories, is actually a [[Kharn|pretty cool guy]]. Like your archetypal White Scar, he combines a carefree love for his job, a sharp and insightful mind, and [[RIP AND TEAR|killer instinct]] into one super-speedy package. When he worked with his bromantic partner [[Kayvaan Shrike]] to hunt [[Daemon Prince|Voldorius]], he helped ease tensions between the chapters by citing a battle where the ''White Scars'' were the ones who left the Raven Guard hanging to make a point that they should move on from the past and focus on the present. He still prefers the White Scars' free and open style of war over the skulking of the Sneaky Beakies, but that was a pretty bro move considering how proud Space Marines tend to be about battle honours and past insults.

And when meeting Sammael in a joint operation, he tried to [[This Guy|strike up a rapport]] with the stoic Dark Angel, privately reflecting that while he'd love to pilot a jetbike just to better resemble [[Jaghatai Khan|Jaghatai-senpai]], he honestly preferred a conventional Space Marine bike because it got a lot more physical and close to the earth. He has also killed [[Doomrider]] - wait, [[What|what?]]

In other news, he may have a [[TTS|something-mance]] with [[Shadowsun]]. Read the Damocles collection, and all will become clear. She had the chance to melt his face into a sludge, but didn't, instead talking to him in his native tongue and offering him a drink. Conclusion? He likes her, she likes him, and stuff. He did end up stabbing her though. <s>With his DICK, bitches!</s>

Upon getting his first look at the [[Primaris Space Marines]] Kor'sarro immediately demanded that he be made into one despite nobody at the time knowing if such a thing was even possible. The procedure was a success, but it appears to have gotten him into some hot water with Jubal Khan. It did get him the finest cyber-berkut the White Scars have, but since it records everything it sees some think that it may be a way for the Chapter Master to keep an eye on the Master of the Hunt.

==On the Tabletop==
{| class=wikitable
! || Pts || WS || BS || S || T || W || A || Ld || Sv
|-
| '''Kor'sarro Khan:''' || 110 || 6 || 5 || 4 || 4 || 6 || 5 || 10 || 3+/4++
|}

[[File:Primaris Korsarro Khan.jpg|300px|thumb|right|"No, I'm not a [[Khorne]] Worshipper! Stop asking!"]]
Kor'sarro is a White Scars captain equivalent and a sober, loyalist version of [[Doomrider]]. His special rules are And They Shall Know No Fear and Chapter Tactics (White Scars), which gives [[Creed|all bikes/rhinos/razorbacks scout]], Furious Charge, Independent Character, and Master of the Hunt (gives D3 victory points if he slays the enemy warlord in a challenge). His warlord trait "Champion of Humanity" allows Imperial units within 12" of him to reroll morale and pinning tests. Kor'sarro comes out of the tin with power armor, frag and krak grenades, an iron halo, a bolt pistol, and the relic blade Moonfang, a power sword that causes ''instant death'' on a to-wound roll of 6. He can be upgraded (25pts) to ride into battle on the relic bike Moondrakken, which is a Space Marine Bike that gives d3 hammer of wrath attacks instead of 1.

Kor'sarro is a great warlord for any White Scars army. He's fast, he's killy, and he's really cheap for what he does. Being the Master of the Hunt he's good at chasing down and murdering warlords, and his warlord trait means you don't have to worry about anyone faltering behind the advance, though this usually isn't much of a problem with marines.

As a Primaris, he doesn't have the bike but does gain the ability to deal mortal wounds in the shooting phase and benefits from an improved Moonfang. His aura is also enhanced to add a +1 to wound for all melee weapons, so put him in an Impulsor with some veteran Intercessors (don't forget the sarge's Thunder Hammer!) and you're set.

{{Marines-Characters}}

Primaris Lieutenant

2021-12-10T04:24:18Z

2001:8003:1D0D:301:83:B080:83CF:C1CF: /* Primaris Lieutenant Inundation */

[[File:Lieutenant1.jpg|200px|right|thumb|Primaris Lieutenants AKA Primaris Captain lite.]]

The Primaris Lieutenant is an officer rank first found amongst the formations of the Primaris Space Marines, and are often the most experienced in a Primaris Squad. In the wake of the resurrection of [[Roboute Guilliman|Robo Gigglyfist]] and his revisions to the [[Codex Astartes]], the rank has been introduced to all the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes and Primaris since the start of the Indomitus Crusade. Their role is to take command of demi-companies when the Captain is absent, freeing Chaplains and Librarians to focus on their own specialties. Lieutenants are differentiated from their fellow marines by a red-on-white stripe on their helms. Some of them can be helmetless which often showcase an extreme amount of Hair-esy.

The Primaris Lieutenants are made to bridge a gap between the regular Astartes and the Primaris. Offering some kinship of brotherly companionship in order to keep a cohesive bond within a Chapter. Thus, Space Marine Battle Companies are frequently divided into two Battle demi-companies of 50 Astartes each in order to spread their forces across multiple combat zones. In most Chapters, command of each demi-company falls to a Lieutenant, who leads his brothers unflinchingly into battle. Some Space Marine Chapters assign additional roles for Lieutenants. The [[Salamanders]], for example, have given these warriors a ceremonial duty as bodyguards to their company's Captain, the three fighting as one. Within the [[Iron Hands]] Chapter they are charged as Naysmiths, questioning their Captain's battle plans so as to probe for human errors within his logic.

The Primaris Lieutenants are noted to be slightly better armed than a normal [[Space Marine]] Lieutenant as well as having better wounds (But not by much). In function some in /tg/ can assume that Primaris Lieutenants are a rough analogue to a Space Marine squad leader. However, as mentioned before, Primaris Lieutenants lead entire demi-companies, not singular squads. They are also sometimes confused with [[Brother-Sergeant|Adeptus Astartes Seargeants and their various counterparts and sub-variants]] due to their similar names and looks.

The matter of truth is that they are basically a more budget version of the [[Primaris Captain]], but with a different (and complimentary) buff aura.

[[Games Workshop|Geedubs]] seems to have an enormous hard-on for these guys. As of April 2019, they've released no less than six generic Primaris Lieutenants (including a Vanguard Lieutenant in Phobos armour), and a unique version each for [[Ultramarines]], [[Blood Angels]], [[Dark Angels]], and even [[Space Wolves]] (technically he's a Primaris [[Wolf Guard]] Battle Leader, [[Original character, do not steal|but Battle Leaders fill pretty much the same role as Lieutenants do in other Chapters]]). GW itself has made fun of this, releasing a trailer for the "Primaris Lieutenant you've always wanted" only for it to turn out to be a corpse that [[Abaddon]] is standing on and making a [https://twitter.com/PrimarisLt joke Twitter feed] "for all your Primaris Lieutenant news".
This is probably due to all of them being Monopose so GW has to release a new one for each weapon combination. It wouldn't be so egregious if they weren't 30 USD for one model.

== Equipment ==

As mentioned before, Primaris Lieutenants are slightly better armed then normal Space Marine Lieutenants but have fewer wargear choices available to them.

They are usually armed with a normal [[Bolt Pistol]] and a [[Power sword|Power Sword]]. However, they can also swap that Power Sword with either a Master-crafted [[Bolt Rifle|Auto Bolt Rifle]] (Think a Bolt Rifle's SMG) which has a shorter range and worse ap than a normal Bolt Rifle, but better rate of fire at long range, fireable after Advancing, and more damage per shot from being master-crafted; or a Stalker Bolt Rifle which is like the direct opposite, having a longer range and stronger ap values at the cost of fire rate and close quarters effectiveness. The new Primaris LT that is coming out with the Indomitus boxset for 9th edition is kitted for close combat, with a master-crafted [[power sword]], storm shield, and a [[Neo-Volkite Pistol|neo-volkite pistol,]] since apparently Cawl's been poking around in the archives again.

== Primaris Lieutenant Inundation ==

[[File:All_lts_until_now.jpg|300px|left|thumb|All of the Primaris Lieutenants until now. Including the poor sod under Abaddon's foot.]]
{{clear}}

* Primaris Lieutenant A/B - Dark Imperium
* Primaris Lieutenant Tolmeron - Blood Angels Lt.
* Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah - Dark Angels Lt.
* Primaris Lieutenant Calsius - Ultramarine Lt. Found in Warhammer Conquest.
* Primaris Lieutenant - Space Wolves Lt. - Tooth and Claw boxset/start collecting primaris space wolves
* Primaris Lieutenant with Power Sword - Wake the Dead boxset.
* Primaris Lieutenant with Stalker Bolt Rifle - Limited release, for 500th Store Opening.
* Primaris Lieutenant - AdeptiCon 2018
* Dead Primaris Lieutenant - On the base of [[Abaddon]]'s new model
* Primaris Vanguard Lieutenant - Shadowspear boxset / start collecting vanguard marines boxset
* Primaris Lieutenant in Phobos armor - Released as a stand alone unit in September of 2019
* Primaris Lieutenant with Storm Shield and Neo-Volkite Pistol - Indomitus boxset
* Dead Primaris Lieutenant - Optional base decoration for [[Be'lakor]]'s new model
* Black Templars Castellan - "I Can't Believe He's Not Firstborn" Primaris lieutenant
* Black Templars Castellan with auto-plasma and master-crafted power sword - Sword brethren box
* <s>Captain</s> [[Rage|Lieutenant]] [[Captain Titus|Titus]] - [[Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine II‎‎]]

== Vanguard Lieutenant ==

[[File:VanguardLieutenant.jpg|200px|right|thumb|The sneaky version.]]

Like all Vanguard Marines, Vanguard Lieutenants wear the lightweight Phobos Armor which makes them [[Raven Guard|extra sneaky]] and less of a big target (the reductions to the [[Pauldrons|'''PAULDRONS''']] decreased their target profile by 30% alone).

Unlike regular Primaris Lieutenants, Lieutenants of the Vanguard formations provide support and tactical flexibility for their Captain. Often, when a strike team is engaged in a complex, multi-faceted operation, a Lieutenant will be assigned to oversee one or more critical aspects.

Beyond their leadership qualities, Lieutenants are skilled blade-fighters with their [[Basic Close Combat Weapons#Astartes Combat Knife|Paired Combat Blades]] (which score extra hits on a 6), and dead-eye shots with their [[Serious Business|master crafted]] [[Bolt Carbine|Occulus Bolt Carbines]] (which ignore cover).

In addition to this, these Vanguard Lieutenants can deploy via grav-chute to enact [[Indrick Boreale|multiple-simultaneous-devastating-defensive-deepstrikes.]] Like [[Steel Rain]], but far more tactical and sneaky. However, he doesn't have Concealed Positions, so unless you're holding him in reserve with [[Reiver|Reivers]], or only deploying within your normal deployment zone, he's going to [[derp|arrive a turn later]] than the other Vanguard troops you'd want him to support, [[Infiltrator|Infiltrators]] and [[Incursor|Incursors]].

Speaking of Reivers, you can alternatively equip him with a [[Heavy Bolt Pistol]], a standard Combat Knife, and the spooky faceplate that gives them the Terror Troops ability. He'll even gain the {{W40kKeyword|REIVER}} keyword. However, he'll also be forced to [[wat|trade the grav-chute with a smoke grenade]], meaning any Reivers he might want to pal around with better either be [[Impulsor|carpooling]] or [[FAIL|walking to their target]].

All in all, it's a nice model that may disappoint some for the sheer fact that it is ''yet'' another Primaris Lieutenant model.

[[Category: Warhammer 40,000]]

[[Category: Imperial]]

[[Category: Space Marines]]

[[Category: Primaris Marines]]

{{Template:Primaris Marine-Forces}}

Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine II

2021-12-10T03:12:07Z

2001:8003:1D0D:301:83:B080:83CF:C1CF:

Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine II is an upcoming game currently in development. The trailer was released in December 2021, and it will start our friend Titus as a demoted [[Meme|Primaris Lieutenant]] against a bunch of Tyranids. Details are lax at the moment, but the short version is this.

'''SPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMEDSPACEMARINEIICONFIRMED'''

Medieval Stasis

2021-12-09T11:46:39Z

2001:8003:1D0D:301:83:B080:83CF:C1CF: Undo revision 800103 by 79.113.176.124 (talk)

{{Topquote|[[Eberron]] in 998 YK is based on the idea that ''civilization is evolving''.|Keith Baker, explaining why Eberron is not a normal campaign setting.}}
'''Medieval Stasis''' describes the state of essentially all fantasy worlds that never get to [[steampunk]], and a crucial component of the [[standard fantasy setting]].

As the title implies, most fantasy worlds are stuck at a technological level roughly equivalent to Europe between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, being more advanced in some fields and more primitive in others, until the universe collapses. A [[knight]]'s ancestors five thousand years ago fought against Orcs on the back of a great warhorse, wielding [[sword]] and lance, wearing plate and a greathelm, just as he does at present and how his descendants 25 generations down the line will. At best, some groups in the universe may be more advanced than others (some peoples might be building castles and forging plate armor while others live as primitive cave men armed with flint axes and stone tipped spears), but nobody will be developing new technology, or, on the off chance one or two factions are, it will never spread much or catch on anywhere else. This also applies to social structures such as feudalism, with a max of one non-Greco-Roman democracy per setting. It will be conquered and restored from edition to edition as fanboys war behind the scenes.

While it is not, in and of itself, a bad thing, as it creates a set mood and style of play, we run into the fact that many writers are hacks, and use it to both rip-off other writers (principally, Tolkien) and to [[Advancing the Storyline|keep the world stagnant enough that they don't risk smashing something people actually like that they didn't have the skill to ''realize'' they shouldn't smash, while still maintaining the illusion of forward momentum]]. The ''[[Forgotten Realms]]'' is a prime example of this, featuring both several powerful organizations out to stifle any attempt to progress the technological or socioeconomic advancement of the setting, and many lame-brained "advances" in story from edition to edition, most infamously with 4th edition's "Spellplague" and retconned twin planet where all the new 4e races were hiding.

A common thing among fantasy writers is treating firearms of any kind as a taboo. Many feel that featuring firearms would somehow ruin the medieval feeling despite the fact that firearms were used in the late medieval period (and in Warhammer.) Granted, [[neckbeards|many people's]] weapon history knowledge is such that they believe that having guns would immediately mean having AK-47s rather than merely having handcannons or matchlock muskets.

Note that in high-magic settings, sorcery sometimes gets so common and overpowered that it basically replaces technological progress. Why would you build robots or rockets if you can just create golems or cast Teleport Without Error?

Another issue with medieval stasis is that a lot of writers—most of them in fact—probably know less about the actual Middle Ages than the average Crusader Kings 2 player and thus present not only a world in medieval stasis but one that's in, at best, a theme-park version of the medieval period and quite often only really showing Anglo-French medievalism (and a bastardized shitfarmer version of it at that). The somewhat more historically literate might put in some anachronisms like references to ancient Greece, Egypt, and Rome, or to the Aztecs (usually a ramshackle mishmash of half remembered tidbits of the Mayans, Aztecs, and Inca thrown together with no real thought), and if you're extra lucky you might get something that's an extended reference to a (largely inaccurate) medieval Islamic polity or to the Holy Roman Empire, mixed in with the usual barbarian tribes, but that's usually about it. Like the Democracy thing mentioned above? It was nowhere near that simple in real life. A great many of the tribal societies we have records of were actually very democratic, where the King was elected and so were the chiefs below them and they absolutely did not have absolute authority over their subjects. And of course "feudalism" is simply a catch all label for a hugely varied and complicated array of societal organization systems that can be vaguely described as an aristocratic hierarchy based around land and military service and assorted ties of loyalty and bloodline.

And even in medieval Europe you had systems that broke the norm, like the merchant republics of Italy or the north German free cities, and of course you had lands directly ruled by the Church. Never mind that you also had rather different systems of organization elsewhere in the world, like in the Islamic world, India, the Americas, and of course, China's quite literal bureaucracy where civil servants hired based on their performance in examinations did most of the day-to-day governing of China; dynasties could come and go but the bureaucracy was eternal. Tolkien was himself, of course, a medievalist with very deep knowledge of the time period, even by today's standards, with our rather improved access to knowledge of the time period. Warhammer was created by history nerds who very much knew what they were writing about and so populated the world of Warhammer Fantasy with references to just about every political system that predominated in the medieval and renaissance periods as well as a lot of those that predominated in antiquity. So not only does Medieval Stasis perpetuate an annoying degree of sameness in the fantasy genre, it also tends to be based on a conception of medieval times that's not only essentially completely limited to France + England with some scattered references to other stuff, but is also almost completely wrong about everything and doesn't even scratch the surface of the depth of medieval history.
==Some general historical points==
One thing that should be known is that no one group of people has a monopoly on innovation. You have some stodgy conservative societies with "revere your ancestors and their wisdom" and "If It Ain't Broke Don't Fix It" mentalities which hinders improvements and those which value innovation and believe in progress for the sake of progress and various groups in between, but nobody has been so dedicated to stagnation that they would shun all attempts at improvement in perpetuity. Civilizations which don't keep up tend to be conquered by those that do. Actual resistance to the adoption of new technologies is typically not to the effect of people in authority demanding the inventors or the presenters of the new breakthrough be burned at the stakes for witchcraft; instead, generally, it would be more to the effect of seeing a new device and declaring it to be an interesting novelty, but be reticent to adopting it because doing so would be expensive and its benefits are still unclear, that there is not a particularly pressing need to improve that field right now, that it might be profitable in one sense but on the other hand it might destabilize the social order of things that has stood for centuries which can result in social unrest as people which profit from the current set up become redundant or that this beneficial machinery might come with complications that leave them in the pockets of foreign powers (buying spare parts for their machines or importing foreign fuel). Concerns which generally do have at least a kernel of truth to them (example: industrialization leading to the rise of a prominent bourgeoisie which eclipses the landed nobility), and the attitude that they often engender is to adopt changes gradually, "on their own terms". Other factors are general xenophobia and resistance to the ideas of Methodological Naturalism as opposed to Dogmatism, though even these are not absolute barriers.

Most improvements don't come in big breakthroughs made by some lone mastermind; a [[Stone Age|genius hunter/gatherer]] did not one day decide [[Bronze Age|"Lets start clearing out land, plowing it and sowing it with seeds and capturing animals to breed so we can have all the food we want"]]. That process took thousands of years, starting with little things such as weeding patches of wild food plants which were gradually added onto with other practices until you got farming as we'd understand it, with silos, farmhouses, fields, plows, pens of livestock, irrigation ditches, and so forth. Improvements can come about by people trying to be more thrifty, having to do with less of a previously common resource, more of a specific resource becoming available or by minor accidental variations. The idea that technology comes all at once from super special smart people ex nihilo instead of being born of conditions produced by years of decisions made by everyone down to the lowliest peasant is something born of a combination of fiction being kind of clumsy at showing things at a societal instead of an individual level and basically hagiographic propaganda about how great some inventor was (while almost invariably not crediting all the people who helped them), with a bit of market campaigning meant to make you think that a slightly faster electric toothbrush is some massive revolution. If you look at society as a product of decisions made by the masses under conditions, rather than some smart guy having a great idea, questions of why some people didn't invent some things become much easier to answer.

Certain technologies and conditions are conducive towards innovation. Let's look at the history of literacy, paper, printing, and the scientific method, for example. If your tribe can farm you have support some artisans who spend all their time weaving, making pots and tools, building boats, working wood, etc. These guys and gals know more about their field of expertise and work out ways of doing it more efficiently. Writing (developed to keep inventory records) means that ideas can be passed down from generation to generation more effectively. Mathematics (ditto) is a major boon to construction and later engineering. Movable type means that both are more readily available to the masses. The scientific mindset is also a valuable aid in this regard and is allowed to flourish because the greater spread of reading pushed by the movable type press and the adoption of paper makes it easier to become educated as well as record the results of experiments and share them with others. Before you had paper and printing presses, writing surfaces were expensive and all copying had to be done by hand. Afterwards, you could print newspapers, books of natural philosophy and manuals for the operation of machines.

What does this mean for the scientific method? Well in this era to have a great, world renown library meant having one thousand or so books and generally they were chained to the library to prevent people from stealing them because they were literally worth their weight in gold. Today a random middle class bookworm could easily have more than a thousand books given some time to collect them, and the really big libraries have literally tens of millions of paper documents. So the massive paper trail of the modern scientific method was simply not affordable, and the need for manual copying basically kneecaps peer review. But with cheap paper, a greater number of people able to afford it thanks to black death induced changes to Feudal Europe, and printing presses science as we now know it could really get into motion.

Refinements in existing technologies can be a prerequisite to the development of new technologies. As an example, the Romans knew the basic principle of how to make a steam engine and even how to put rotary power to work (having watermills for grinding grain and sawing wood) but they could not apply that technology because they lacked the ability to cast iron as they lacked proper blast furnaces, something you need to be good at doing to make one which is actually useful. The steam engines known to the Mediterranean world at the time were basically fancy toys for the idle rich. The Chinese had the technology to theoretically make steam engines, but the issue tended to be a lack of substantial need as well as [[China]]'s bad habit of periodically exploding into colossal gigadeath civil wars. The Song Dynasty might have sparked the need for such technologies as they were rapidly transitioning towards a highly commercialised economy and out of the bounds of feudalism and were starting to run into issues of demand outpacing the ability of work to meet, [[Genghis motherfucking Khan|but things didn't go too great for them.]]

Finally there is the matter of Diffusion, the spread of technology from one country or civilisation to another if they are in contact with each other. This can be done directly (kidnapping a blacksmith and telling him to train up some of your bronzesmiths to work iron and beat him if he does not comply) or indirectly (a trader from the next kingdom over comes into town with a donkey pulling a wheeled cart, a carpenter sees this, thinks it's a good idea and decides to try to make one himself). There is no point in reinventing the wheel from log rollers on up when you can just copy someone else's work. Moreover if the idea spreads there will be a hell of a lot of people working on it making wheels coming to useful improvements by accidents, making refinements and big breakthroughs which will in turn spread again. If you started in Portugal and went east through Spain, France, Italy, the Balkans, Greece, Turkey, The Fertile Crescent, Iran, Pakistan, India, Indochina and China, you'd come across a series of well developed civilizations that had existed for thousands of years and each one had dealings with their neighbors. Ideas that started in India or Rome or Greece flowed along that pathway to be taken and refined elsewhere.

tl;dr: Stop being lazy and go read Guns, Germs and Steel.

=== Fantasy authors are bad Medievalists and historians, part 2 ===

The vision of medieval times that exists in fantasy is a gigantic pile of anachronisms, pop-history, and misconceptions. Much of this is due to Fantasy's scope of time being seriously out of whack even without innovations like gunpowder or industrial technology. See, our monkey brains aren't very good at really comprehending spans of time longer than a handful of decades. So we tend to mash up entire "eras" of history into indistinct blobs in our headspace, even though the entire concept of a historical era is more or less for academic convenience and categorization. Charlemagne's Empire was as far back in the past relative to Joan of Arc as she is to the present day. And technology and culture certainly did not remain static in those intervening seven hundred years. Paris went from a fairly small city of a few tens of thousands to a bustling metropolis of nearly a quarter of a million people, mail or banded armour was largely replaced by solid plated armour, gunpowder was popularised, sugar was introduced to the European diet, the Magyars went from eastern horseback-mounted pagan invaders to a solidly Catholic and Europeanised mainstay of central Europe as the Hungarians, and eastern Europe was Christianised in a rather gory and unpleasant process, to name just a few of the drastic changes over the years. Of course, any Crusader Kings 2 player could tell you how ridiculous the idea of the political map of a faux-medieval realm remaining static for centuries is.

Let's now take the common complaint among Fantasy authors that guns render castles and knights in shining armour obsolete. Full Plate armour coexisted with man-portable gunpowder weapons throughout literally the entirety of its military service and was phased out because of reasons of cost as armies got bigger, not because it was ineffective against guns. Making a fully articulated suit of plate armour fitted to every soldier is expensive and time consuming, so as armies got more standardised as countries centralised, with equipment being given by the military rather than soldiers being left to figure it out themselves, it was deemed easier to just give people the basics needed to protect their bodies. In that case, ditching the limb armor to reduce costs while keeping the helmet and breastplate like the Swiss Landsknecht and the Spanish Tercio. Hell: in Japan, the increasing prevalence of guns is what made the Samurai go from only partially metallic lamellar armour to full metal plated suits in the first place.

Furthermore, Plate armour by and large did not coexist with other types of metallic armour. It straight up replaced them all because it was just flatly better. Whether it's just a breastplate, a suit of half-plate (half referring to how much of the body is protected), or full plate, there was basically zero reason to wear anything else. Once the metal casting technology for plate armour became widespread, other forms of armour largely disappeared save for covering joint areas because plate armour is simply better in every way and is cheaper to make. Full coats of mail or scale didn't coexist with efficiently made plate armour; there's no need for a chain shirt when a solid steel breastplate offers superior protection for no downside, and full plate is actually considerably more comfortable and lighter than a full coat of mail. So that adventuring party where the Barbarian is wearing chainmail for mobility and the fighter is wearing full plate to tank better at the cost of agility? Simply didn't happen. You're mixing your dark ages and your late medieval/renaissance era armour styles. Mixing armor did, however, happen with conquistadors, and ''may'' have occurred with other small groups of fighting men. This was due purely to costs, not armor types having pros and cons, as used obsolete gear was far cheaper than armor anyone actually wanted. The equipment log for the 287 combatant Coronado expedition lists five suits of full plate (four belonging to Coronado himself), four suits of plate armor for horses (all Coronado's), 16 sets of partial plate, 56 pieces of sleeveless chain armor for the torso (two vests only), one suit of sleeved chain armor, and 250 gambesons. Archaeologists have found a medieval kettle hat in New Mexico, which would have been obsolete for hundreds of years before it got there.

As for Castles, anyone who seriously believed that cannons made strong walls obsolete would be laughed out of any gunpowder-era military engineering course; hell, even as late as the World Wars, fixed fortifications were a very daunting task for artillery to try and crack and often required specialist super heavy guns or ultra high penetration air-dropped bombs to break. After the development of gunpowder artillery, contemporary militaries simply converted their castles into star forts or polygonal fortresses (where the walls are made sloped and are backed by a lot of sloped compressed dirt. Meanwhile, in China, average city walls were already several meters thick and filled with lots of compressed dirt and gravel compared to the famous walls of Constantinople (which were two to three meters thick at best and less stuffed). This meant that the Chinese had less incentive to refine their artillery for centuries (which came back to backfire on them when modern howitzers were used against them by the Europeans when they sent out colonial expeditions). Have you ever heard the term Forlorn Hope? It refers to the supremely unfortunate soldiers who get the job of being the first to rush into the breach of a fortress when after what is typically days, weeks, or even months of non-stop cannon fire they ''finally'' break open one of the walls. Which is rather obviously a suicide mission for the first wave. If it were easy to crack open fortresses with cannonades there would be no need for them.

What actually changed about Castles is that as countries became more centralised, control over military forts passed unto the Kingdom/Empire proper and out of the hands of local nobles, meaning that fortresses largely stopped also being houses for the resident Baron or Count of whatever. This had the benefit of ensuring that local nobles had a harder time rebelling because the fortresses were loyal to the Capital, rather than being their private property. It wasn't until well into the 20th century with the invention of the atomic fucking bomb that a line of fixed fortifications was no longer regarded as a serious obstacle to a truly determined attacker and that was only if the attacker was willing and able to drop one on the battlefield. With conventional munitions, even today with all our missiles and precision weapons, a fortified line is something that most attackers would rather bypass than breach. Of course, most defenders know this and essentially use fortifications to funnel attackers into battlefields of their choosing.

And what about industrial technology? Surely that has no place in my pre-modern setting or would be obsoleted by magic! That too was driven in large part by increased centralisation. Artisanal production is relatively fine if you never need to send products very far away from where they're made and are only meeting relatively small amounts of local demand and the occasional distant but super wealthy patron. But as realms centralise and unify and economies grow interconnected, suddenly monks copying maybe a handful of books a year at a premium isn't enough to meet the needs for more literature. You need higher output, which leads to factorification of production which requires growing mechanisation of production to ensure that quality remains consistent. This drives the greater reliance on machines in producing things and these machines make it easier to make better machines until you can meet the demand or until you get to the point where you're starting to reach the limitations of your power source like wind, muscle, or waterpower. As medieval societies got bigger, you saw more windmills and watermills to get more power for all this work.

Fantasy settings, however, offer magic and alchemy which should realistically, unless there are heavy restrictions on the commonality of either, make for ideal power sources to make for even better machines until you end up in industrialism via such powers. Whether they do this on their own or are used to augment mundane technology is mostly irrelevant. And indeed, powerful mages and alchemists are likely to end up as the predominant class as they control access to these all important resources. So societies that don't want to rely on either would likely double down on trying to find alternatives to having to rely on them, much like how Merchants pushed for quite a lot of what we take for granted in modern society to wriggle out from the thumb of the Aristocracy, like moving centres of production into cities not owned by nobles so they didn't have to pay the local Baron and would have better access to labourers not tied to the land as they sought to maximise profit in their class interest.

Societies are products of the conditions in which they exist. Things are the way they are because of responses to needs and pressures or perceived needs and pressures. They are never really static because the wheel of history is constantly turning and even something as simple as fluctuations in population size can result in radical transformations. Did a big war just depopulate a country in a fantasy setting? Well, gee whiz, now the labourers in the country have a much greater position of power and influence due to the scarcity of their services, which can lead to undermining the entire basis of medieval feudalism and pave the way for late Feudalism or even early Capitalism. Or perhaps something else entirely if the setting conditions allow for it (probably not a regression to Classical era slavery though; that required huge surpluses of labour.)

==Why the Medieval Stasis of the Post-Roman Middle Ages Ended==

In our own world, there were several critical developments which dramatically altered the status quo and led to the disruption of Medieval Stasis. These were:

* '''Printing:''' The invention of printing resulted in an upswing of literacy and education across all but the lowest classes of society. Greater availability of religious texts immediately caused schisms in Christianity as its foundational texts were scrutinized, while broadsheets and pamphleteering became the first form of ostensibly independent "news" through which the masses could be swayed to one view or another. The church had been instrumental in raising people to subscribe to the status quo and its disruption left the system it was propping up vulnerable.
* '''Casting & Gunpowder:''' These two technologies were linked at the hip. Gunpowder weaponry was powerful, but also expensive and complicated to make (cannons are generally cast, and once you can cast guns you can cast all kinds of new things). It made feudalism untenable; no longer could a lord have his smith hammer out some weapons and outfit some men at arms. Instead he paid taxes (bastard feudalism) so the king could buy guns made by...
* '''Craft Guilds (the Emergence of a Middle Class):''' The increasing complexity of creating of arms and desired goods drove the formation of labor organizations specifically focused on production; all kinds of production from guns to fabrics to ships and everything else. As these organizations gained wealth, they gained power and with it an awareness of the their importance relative to the importance of their supposed betters; this awareness found its outlet in the growing public forum fueled by printing.
* '''Fractional Investment:''' With craft guilds and casting, economies were primed to begin growing rapidly, beyond the ability of the nobility to retain control or even complete awareness of what was going on. Into this the growing artisan classes (particularly in the Netherlands) threw in the concept of modern investment, allowing individuals of lower means to participate in larger endeavors at reasonable risk. Whether it was building polders or sending ships on trading missions or establishing businesses, this lit a fuse for explosive economic growth which ultimately made feudalism (and its tendency to maintain the status quo) economically obsolete.

While there were innumerable other factors, these were major destabilizing elements that individually might have been coped with, but in concert made change inevitable. In designing a medieval setting, care must be given to the degree of technology that is introduced. As a general rule anything which cannot be created by the labor of a single person (excluding buildings, anyway), is liable to begin a chain reaction of economic activity which transfers wealth (and thus, power) away from a landholding nobility to a middle, merchant class.

This is why Venice with its shipbuilders and traders was the birthplace of the Renaissance. Unlike all the rest of Europe, Venice never succumbed to medieval stasis from feudalism; instead it succumbed to something resembling anarcho-capitalism. The middle merchant class of wealthy citizens (citizen in the Roman/Byzantine sense) grew so powerful so fast from shipbuilding and trade that they engaged in centuries of backstabbing and petty power grabs. In feudalistic countries, you were rich ''because you were king'', and your line might reign for centuries. In Venice you were Doge ''because you were rich'' and used your money to bribe/threaten/murder enough people to make you Doge; and odds were you'd be dead within a couple years to make someone else Doge. In a fit of irony, Venice, Ragusa and other merchant city-states eventually suffered a stagnation due to the closing of the Silk Road and the shift of trade lines from Mediterranean to Atlantic, this just goes to show how historical conditions can make or break a society.

==Notable Examples of Medieval Stasis==

*'''[[Lord of the Rings]]:''' Tolkien wasn't too fond of industrialization, having seen the First World War's highly industrialized warfare and the pollution-spewing effects of the Industrial and Transportation Revolutions on his native countryside up close and personal, so the heroes of his stories preferred Medieval Stasis as well, barring a few anachronisms like clocks and matches. Unlike most of the writers that he inspired, Tolkien had [[Fluff|five hundred pages of background]] explaining why, namely because Middle-earth was in a state of decline due to the ravages of Morgoth and Sauron, the gradual decline of the elves and the Dunedain after the downfall of Numenor, and much of their technology was given to them by the Valar rather than inventing it themselves, and is intended as a mythological history of the world that ultimately explains why humans are on top and everyone else is gone. The funny thing is, based on supplementary books and scrapped stories, Numenor came quite close to being a Steampunk world power, equipped with steamships and even rockets, which, in their decadent colonialist period, they promptly used to imperialize the shit out of much of the world in a manner that led to their ultimate downfall. Indeed, that's why Harad, Rhun, Khand and other humans hate Gondor so much. The Numenorian ancestors of Gondor's people were taking them for [[Chaos Dwarfs|industrial-level human sacrifices]] and doing other atrocities to them, so the descendants of their victims still hold genocidal hatred (abetted by Sauron playing all sides against each other). Also, it's worth mentioning that Tolkien designed his setting as a literal Earth backstory myth, so technically the age of industrialisation and modernisation will start in Middle-Earth anyway.
* '''[[A Song of Ice and Fire]]:''' Westeros is ''extra'' static, because not only has everything been fairly stable for thousands of years until the Great Fuckening of the current time frame, some ''individual families'' have had unbroken rule over their lands for a hundred odd generations (The Starks being the prime example, as they have ruled in Winterfell for over ''eight thousand years'') which is something patently absurd when you consider how much real life royal, imperial, and noble families have had to struggle to avoid patrilineal extinction in just a few centuries, with the oldest still extant aristocratic house being the Japanese house of Yamato and even then it's likely that they bent the rules of succession at least once in their 2500 year history. That said, it should be noted that part of the backstory involves the Bronze Age First Men defeating the Stone Age Children of the Forest, who were themselves conquered by the Iron Age Andal invaders everywhere but in the Iron Islands and the North (who adapted and adopted the technology of their would-be conquerors), and the records of the ancient days are spotty at best, full of mythical accounts and many of the Maesters believe that said events happened over a shorter timeframe. Granted, the whole "millenia old houses" might be something that tended to happen with noble houses IRL claming to be much older than they actually were and could not being contradicted in the absence of reliable records, all the way to the Ethiopian "Solomonids" that still exist to this day, and the aforementioned Yamato being helped by the fact that Japan did not have reliable calendars until the late 19th century, so there's that. While the exact timespan between the Andal invasion and the current events isn't exactly established, the stasis is still quite bad especially when you consider how dragons (essentially domesticated flying animals) are present yet people are none wiser on things such as flight or the use of heat and steam in proto-industrial activities.
* '''[[Forgotten Realms]]:''' Not only have things been more-or-less exactly the same for all of recorded history, there is a powerful, international, theoretically-good-or-at-least-neutral organization actively devoted to making sure that ''no progress of any kind is ever made'': the [[Harpers]]. Whenever anyone invents something useful (guns, locomotion, steel plows, etc.) and tries to market it, the Harpers confiscate it and make it clear they'll kill the creator and their whole family if they don't go back to being a happy little peasant. Whenever a good-aligned king tries to unite and stabilize the warring states, the Harpers murder his ass (makes one wonder if the Harpers aren't part of the problem). Faerun hasn't budged an inch since Ao glued it together. And even [[Al-Qadim]], located on a southern continent beyond their reach, is a somewhat-hidebound and conservative society where progress is uncommon. The only exception to this was the island nation of [[Lantan]]. The island was a theocratic state in service to Gond Wonderbringer, a deity whose portfolio included innovation and technology, who gifted his followers with knowledge of smokepowder which lead to functional in-setting [[firearm|firearms]]. At least until 4th edition blew it up along with everything else fun or interesting in the Forgotten Realms. As of 5th edition, the current (albeit scattered and/or vague) lore seems to imply that Lantan's destruction has been retconned like the rest of the Spellplague.
* '''[[Greyhawk]]:''' Despite the impotent bitching on the page for this [[Old School Roleplaying|oldest-of-the-old school]] settings, it also has a society where nothing much ever has happened or will happen to bring about changes in the lifestyles of its inhabitants. And ''this'' is the setting with [[Murlynd| a literal god of Old West gunfighting]] and an army of [[firearm]]-toting [[gunslinger|paladins analogous to sheriffs]].
* '''[[Dragonlance]]:''' Apocalyptic calamities come and go, but Krynn stays at pretty much the same level of pseudo-medieval tech forever, world without end, amen. And, no the [[Gnomes|tinker gnomes]] do ''not'' count, since their stuff almost never does anything useful, gets mass-produced, or catches on outside the gnomes themselves. In fact, some material explicitly says that the reason for the stasis is '''because''' of the fucking gnomes; their absolute idiocy when it comes to producing technology has actually convinced pretty much every other culture on the planet that science is fundamentally inferior in every way to sorcery! The one culture that doesn't think they're entirely a waste of time is only interested because it pretty much hates magic... and is made of a bunch of knight-in-shining-armor types so hidebound that they haven't been able to properly fix their organization since the first Cataclysm, and so anything like vehicles or gunpowder is certain to get dismissed on grounds of being "dishonorable". So, yeah, '''fuck''' tinker gnomes.
* '''[[Warcraft]]:''' In a cartoony match for the Dragonlance example above, Azeroth's many factions never adopt one another's technological advancements. Goblins and gnomes can invent as many steampunk robots as they want, none of their stuff will ever change the world in a concrete way. Even the aliens are mostly just sword-and-sorcery types using magic for space travel and other advanced projects. That said, firearms had established themselves in the comparatively recent past.
*'''[[Ravenloft]]:''' This is probably the most interesting example. The Demiplane of Dread doesn't so much "advance" as it does "absorb some place where things are a little more complicated," and most of the Domains of Dread are already tailor-made just to torture their prisoners (and the Darklords can also choose to simply seal off all access to their Domains entirely when they're not just isolated by the Mists). Thus, though individual Domains might be advanced enough for common people to have firearms and gaslights or so primitive that they aren't even ''into'' the Stone Age (King Crocodile for the win!), they will almost never learn from or assimilate one another's technology even on the rare chance xenophobia doesn't get in the way first. Each Domain will be mostly frozen into the level it's at, medieval or not. Amusingly, this works both ways: technologically-advanced societies are no more likely to take up magic than lower-tech ones are to learn to use gunpowder. There's a notable exception in the Rokushima Táiyoo, which is listed as "Dark Age", but said to find the gunpowder weapons of Dementlieu "tantalizing;" this is a reference to the fact that that land is a pastiche of Sengoku Jidai Japan, and its Darklord of Western fanboy and gunpowder aficionado Oda Nobunaga.
*'''[[Star Wars]]:''' Not medieval, but absolutely in technological stasis in the Old Republic. In the 4000 years before the Battle of Yavin (the situation before and after this 4000 year period is discussed below) technological , the only thing that has noticeably improved is hyperdrives which have become faster and smaller. This would eventually be justified by a devastating war ~1100 years before the original film bringing about a dark age that killed several major technology companies and destroyed any FTL communication (sans courier) past the core worlds. This does ''not'' however apply to the period of 36 years covered by the films and the decades after it covered by the Expanded Universe (see below). There are some in-universe technological achievements that supposedly result in better results (the kolto made by an isolationist monopoly being replaced by the superior bacta made by multiple rival cartels, for instance, as the flesh-healing miracle drug), but none of them are really noticeable through the window the audience sees.
*'''[[Dune]]:''' One of the major inspirations for ''Star Wars'' (and [[Warhammer 40K]]). At some point in the past, AI went rogue and humanity's struggle against it became a literal holy war (the Butlerian Jihad), after it ended, development of any "thinking machines" was banned by religious fiat. As a result, technological and scientific development has slowed to a crawl, new technology is seen as suspicious, the "[[Drug|Spice]]" from Arrakis allows people to become human supercomputers, expanded lifetimes, and have space folding, so there was no desire to experiment and find alternatives, the development of personal shields made every other weapon outdated except for melee weapons (unless you shoot a [[lasgun]] into a shield, then the [[Exterminatus|shooter, the target, and the surrounding landscape are deleted in a massive explosion]]) and the Bene Gesserit and Navigator's Guild collaborated to set up a feudalistic government with full knowledge that it would be easier to control. However, the main plot of the series is eventually revealed to be about making humanity escape this stagnation.
*'''[[Warhammer Fantasy Battles]]:''' Bretonnia is literally in Medieval Stasis despite having one of the most technologically-advanced nations right next door. The Elves of all types give no fucks about advancing their technology, but in their defense what they have still works, they have access to giant monsters such as dragons and hydras and the Dark Elves at least have progressed from bows to rapid-fire armor-piercing crossbows. The Warriors of Chaos are again literally medieval, but in their case they're Medieval [[Vikings]] who get supplied with advanced tech by the Chaos Dwarf allies or demons. Orcs have not been introduced to the wonders of "Dakka" yet; the Lizardmen still use wood and stone but make up for it by also using dinosaurs and the best magic in their world. Lastly, the Ogres are pretty much in "Stone Age Stasis" as they're not very intelligent but under Overtyrant Greasus started to discover the benefits of commerce. Human nations outside of Bretonnia are at the tail end of the Renaissaince, while the Empire of Man is in slowly fighting through the early Enlightenment but they are under constant attack from various Eldritch horrors so progress is existent but slow. The only races that have had any technological developments on a grand scale are the Skaven and Dwarfs, and more so the Chaos Dwarfs. Unfortunately, most of the inventions of the Skaven end up blowing up in their face, and the Dwarfs are reluctant to share their technology with anybody other than the Empire of Man and must be centuries old before the guilds allow it to be mass-produced. The Chaos Dwarfs' technology is run on daemon souls and bloody sacrifices. You can see why others have not copied them.
** The undead factions are an interesting case. The Vampire Counts vary with Luthor Harkon's pirate fleets using blackpowder weapons while outside that the most advanced technology seen in that faction was crossbows. The Tomb Kings had varying technology, with their most technologically advanced city, Lybaras, reaching the steampunk level. Also, they have superhuman abilities and being undead eliminates many of the needs that lead people to develop technology (no need to develop automation when undead laborers don't get tired or bored and if their bodies wear out they get repaired with magic, no need for medicine because most diseases don't effect undead and non-vampire undead don't need sustenance) and they also have magic and monsters.
** Not that any of this matters because the entire world got nuked by the Chaos Gods. The sequel setting, Age of Sigmar, has the successor factions be at roughly the same level as they were at the End Times, but stuff has become understood enough that Steam Tanks and Cannons won't randomly blow up as often and can be reliably mass produced, and it should be pointed out that Mass Production is itself a game changer. Stasis is more then raw technology: it is as much application. The Kharadron Overlords have surpassed steampunk via magic punk. The setting also has more-widely-available magic than the Old World did, significantly changing and improving the qualify of life of its inhabitants (in theory, in practice it's still pretty bad due to Chaos, [[Nagash]], Greenskin and giant rampages and the realms being pretty fucked up places even when those three aren't involved, even Azyr is under a heavy dictatorship to prevent chaos of both lowercase c and capital C varieties).

==Notable Settings ''Without'' Medieval Stasis==

*'''[[Warhammer Fantasy Battles]]:''' The Empire and the Dwarfs are actually about the level of most European countries around 1500, at the start of the early modern period and the Renaissance. They're also advancing, albeit slowly, but the problem is that they are under constant Chaos invasions and Chaos Gods themselves are not above screwing with the world, which puts something of a crimp on pure research. Imagine what Nurgle would do to the guy who discovered penicillin in this world. The fact that relations between the engineers and the Cult of Sigmar are not the best in the world does not help things at all. The other notable technology users are the Skaven, but the Skaven technology only affects their weapons (god help the world if they ever figure out sanitation considering what it did to our own population) and it's almost all magitech based on weaponizing [[Warpstone|solidified Chaos.]] Undead straddle the line between the two, with the vampires not being afraid to use technology; the problem is most of their undead minions lack the physical and mental acumen to use it while the vampires physical, mental and magical abilities make technology practically redundant to them at a personal level. The [[Tomb Kings]] had technology at the steampunk level, though this isn't represented in the game, but they are more concerned about rebuilding their realm, which has fallen into disrepair due to hundreds of years of civil war and no maintenance, rather than advancing their society. They do have something like robots in the form of their magically animated undead constructs.
**''''[[Warhammer: Age of Sigmar]]:''' As noted above, the sequel setting shows clear technological development with mass production of the best of the stuff known in the World-That-Was, with the [[Kharadron Overlords]] and the [[Cities of Sigmar]] subfaction Ironweld Arsenal being the resident technological factions.
*'''[[Iron Kingdoms]]:''' The Iron Kingdoms setting is one of the best examples of steampunk fantasy. They're developed to the extent of the Victorian era (the mid-to-late 1800s), with a slow-but-growing industrial revolution and the discovery and development of electricity and chemistry, with the ongoing big international clusterfuck behind the wargame constantly fueling magical and technological advancement. At the same time, it remains a recognizably fantasy setting in many ways, with wizard orders, barbarian tribes, and dangerous monster threats on the frontier demanding plucky-adventurer solutions. (Or did before the wheels came off partway through Third Edition to make way for the science fiction spin-off nobody wanted. Still isn't medieval stasis though.)
*'''[[Eberron]]:''' Eberron is weird and expressly focused on subverting the usual D&D cliches, so the technology is a strange mixture of all eras with a side order of JRPG-style magitech. It's one of the few settings that avoids both medieval stasis and outright steampunk, since magic is so common that it has effectively displaced technology, but unlike most settings, this manifests as mass ''availability'' of magic conveniences. As there is no continuity and by default every game starts at exactly the same point in time as every other game, in 998 YK, [[Advancing the Storyline| there's no real status quo to worry about upsetting]]. Only modules/novels that are direct sequels ever reference the events of other modules/novels as having happened.
*'''[[Dark Sun]]:''' A weird example. Depending on edition, the past of Athas may have included anything from a standard fantasy setting to a bio-mechanical halfling empire. But, either way, the Brown Age is a barbaric decline of these past glories, with little metal and no feasible way of shaping more leaving the world in an oddly-civilized nigh-Stone Age. Still, there is an undercurrent of rebuilding and reforming throughout the more-heroic-minded books on the setting, helped by the same eventual anti-continuity Eberron had, so the idea that things ''could'' progress or get better isn't ''impossible''.
*'''[[Ironclaw]]:''' The once-fantasy world is undergoing a pseudo-Renaissance shift away from magic and feudalism to machinery and Italian-style guild-republics. PCs are actually explicitly part of the burgeoning new middle class. Not bad for a furry RPG, huh?
*'''[[Mystara]]:''' Depending on where you are, there might be airships, magic-powered technological conveniences, and drill-tanks to explore the hollow earth full of dinosaurs. Either way, things are a little less generic here in proto-Eberron.
*'''[[Pathfinder]]:''' [[Golarion]] features relatively advanced technologies such as flintlock and matchlock firearms, the printing press, galleons (crewed by pirates reminiscent of the Golden Age of piracy in the Caribbean), and, in certain sourcebooks, [[Spelljammer|steampunk/magi-tech spaceships]]. Not to mention the number of people whose clothes and equipment are explicitly based on 18th-century fashions (see, among others, Andoran, Taldor, and Alkenstar). At least one source (''05-13: Hellknight's Feast'') says high class dwellings have actual porcelain toilets. Also, there's that one random corner of the world where aliens are trying to peacefully settle and/or invade, only to realize they picked the *one* corner of the world where pleas of "We come in peace!" are met with [[Barbarian|warcries and the judicious application of battleaxes to various vital areas]]. One sourcebook (''Technology Guide'') includes *lots* of super-high-tech stuff and different class archetypes that make use of it. On the socio-political front, the Chelaxian breakaways Andoran and Galt have started to push for a less aristocratic government. Come second edition, cannons have become widespread on naval vessels.
**And '''[[Starfinder]]''' reveals that at least at some point various sci-fi technologies will be developed.
*'''[[Avatar: The Last Airbender]]''': It was true in the past, but by the time of the original series the Fire Nation has become an industrial power, complete with colonial ambitions towards the rest of the world. In fact, the main character's previous incarnation as Avatar Roku actually ''stopped'' the Fire Nation from breaking medieval stasis ''because'' he foresaw that doing so would mean allowing them to subjugate all the other peoples and Sozin, the Fire Lord during this industrial age, confirmed that was the plan hoping Roku would join him. Sure enough, after Sozin gets rid of Roku, the Fire Nation immediately goes all Imperial Japan on the world, and the next Avatar turned out to be an Airbender who ran from the genocide of his people, which is perfectly sensible because even if they weren't the designated pacifist culture, he was literally 12 and had no way of meaningfully stopping them (''yet''). Even the Earth Kingdom and Water Tribes have a few tinkerers and inventors, and during the time of Avatar Aang, the first airships and submarines are invented, albeit the magitek varieties. At the end of the show, the protagonist Avatar Aang makes peace between all three surviving factions and begins the reestablishment of the aforementioned genocided faction, and the sequel reveals that doing so helped the world advance to a roughly 20s/30s era of technology, complete with automobiles, moving pictures, the printing press, political propaganda videos, and cronyist democracy.
*'''[[Dragonmech]]''': Dragonmech's setting used to be in Medieval Stasis, then chunks of the moon started to rain down on them along with Alien Moon Dragons riding the rocks down for a full-on invasion, people first hide underground but then a dwarf kickstarts the creation of Pacific Rim sized steampunk robots to fight the Dragons and the whole world is now in a full-on steam-powered Industrial Revolution without the gunpowder.
*'''[[Star Wars]]:''' After the Celestials fell, the Rakata developed significantly and only failed as they lost their connection to the force. After the Rakata collapse, technology advances with some anachronisms due to FTL travel being discovered early on through Rakatan and other ruins and slave revolts against the Rakata. This continues until the period between the start of the New Sith Wars (2000 BBBY) to the Ruusan Reformation (1000 BBY) (where everyone was too busy killing eachother, even more so than usual), and after that technology actually ''does'' advance noticeably throughout Post-Reformation Old Republic and especially the prequels (32 BBY onward) all the way to the era of the Legacy comics (138 ABY). Hyperdrives improve (in speed, how small a craft they can fit in and how big a craft they can propel) at a much faster rate than they did in the 1000 years since the end of the dark age. It's not just direct improvements either, with new technologies like [[Android]]s, relatively cheap cloaking devices that don't require unobtainum, silent and invisible blasters, biological technology merged with mechanical tech, and more. Even military strategy changes significantly between back and forth transitions between symmetrical and asymmetrical warfare. Amazingly all this occurs organically as new technology is introduced to allow a plot and gets improved upon in future installments.
*'''[[Masque of the Red Death|Gothic Earth]]''': Perhaps the ultimate aversion as Gothic Earth follows real world technological history of tech development ''almost'' exactly, even stating players can only obtain certain items after a certain point in time. Ordinarily this wouldn't be notable, as Gothic Earth is still Earth, but [[RPGA|Living Death]] included some technology that was explicitly anachronistic, such as submarines capable of cross Atlantic voyages and long term submerging, and a few people who have lived somewhat longer.

[[Category:History]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Games Workshop

2021-12-09T11:44:02Z

2001:8003:1D0D:301:83:B080:83CF:C1CF: Undo revision 800089 by 155.246.163.82 (talk) This is garbage

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[[File:GW Logo.png|center|900px]]

{{topquote|A fool and his money are soon parted.|Dr John Bridges}}
{{topquote|A wise man should have money in his head, but not in his heart.|Jonathan Swift}}
{{topquote|For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.|Saint Paul, The Bible, 1 Timothy 6:10 (NLT)}}
{{topquote|Success seems to be connected with action. Successful people keep moving. They make mistakes, but they don't quit.|Conrad Hilton}}
{{topquote|xaxa Warhammer is for everyone unless you are poor...|Uamee}}

'''Games Workshop''', known to /tg/ as '''Geedubs''', or '''GW''' is a company which produces miniatures and despite their former CEO's best efforts, games. Their three most notable games are [[Warhammer Fantasy]], [[Warhammer:_Age_of_Sigmar|Age of Sigmar]] and [[Warhammer 40,000]].

{{Infobox Deity
|Name = Games Workshop
|Symbol =
|Alignment = Neutral Evil
|Divine Rank = AAA
|Pantheon = Tabletop
|Portfolio = Warhammer Fantasy, Age of Sigmar, PRIMARIS MARINES
|Domains =
|Home Plane = Lead Belt, United Kingdom
|Worshippers =
|Favoured Weapon = Exploit Worker, Union Breaker, Price-gouging, IP Lawsuit, IP Theft
}}

The first thing that you must know is that in /tg/'s general opinion, Games Workshop used to be good, and then it was shit, run into the ground by idiots. <s>Thankfully since [[Kevin_Rountree|a new guy took over]] it's been doing a lot better and most believe it could become good again. See [[Mordheim]], [[Beakie]], [[Rogue Trader (Sourcebook)|Rogue Trader]] and [[Talisman]].</s>

This turned out to be a fool's hope. See Warhammer+ and the 2020-2021 purging of the 40k fanimation community, which has led to a sharp and ongoing decline in their stock prices... even during holiday season of 2021 (as of Nov. 3rd).

The second thing you must know is that Games Workshop is the reason /tg/ exists in the first place: it was originally created as a containment board to isolate Warhammer threads from the general population on [[/b/]]. Warhammer is also a massive part of tabletop gaming culture history; as such, the importance of Warhammer in /tg/ cannot be overstated.

The third thing you must know is that Games Workshop is extremely protective about their precious intellectual properties. This is funny because you can count the number of original ideas in their core games on one hand, with the original creators outright admitting they ripped off existing works wholesale. The vast majority of backstory in Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 is a rehash of established fantasy/sci-fi literature, padded out with stuff the writers half-remembered from A-level history lectures. This is particularly true in the case of Warhammer Fantasy, which actually makes sense when you realize most of GW's founders actually had history degrees. 40k by contrast is mostly Fantasy ''IIIIN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE'', with a heaping helping of tropes from everything sci-fi that was popular in Britain in the 1980's.

Finally, and this is very important to understand why they have become the dominant company of the miniature market and are no longer a failing business that constantly shot itself in the legs (thanks to their own failings and tarnished reputation): GeeDubs likes the top lines in the news and shows it off. Thanks to the old fucking idiot who was crippling the company deciding to leave with a large stash of money, like a rat jumping off a sinking ship, the new management was able to realize that putting out more than a catalogue was a good way to draw in new buyers and win back some old ones. Any given week you can see them bringing articles, comics, tutorials, interviews, short stories, miniatures, codices, novels and other features, this zealous dedication to '''growth''' allows them to promote and sell their different lines, which in turn allows them to make even more profit and produce more stuff while periodically trying different niches, creating a (relatively speaking) virtuous economic circle. Games Workshop's resources are comparatively vast and they use them at their full (with varied although generally favorable results) extent. Add to this the extensive use of their brands in the video game industry, and you can see why they are THE powerhouse when it comes to miniature-oriented tabletop gaming.

==History==

===Ancient History===
The original Games Workshop was established several hundred years ago BC, originating in China. However, when the Emperor placed a commission for thousands of life-sized soldiers, this predecessor began to collapse, as with all production being geared to the creation of these soldiers and the murderous ire of the first Emperor, they were unable to introduce price rises. As one, their board of directors resolved that they must fall into hibernation, to wait out the storm, screaming defiance at the one man who ever had defeated them.

===Almost-as-Ancient History===
[[File:John Peake and Ian Livingstone and Steve Jackson.jpg|thumb|center|300px|Steve, John, and Ian with their first products.]]
Games Workshop was established in 1975 in London as a small literal workshop that created wooden [[Board Games|boards]] for public domain games, such as [[Chess]] which it sold through mail-order catalogs (not its own). The original staff was just three men in a flat in London. John Peake, Steve Jackson (not to be confused with the other /tg/ Steve Jackson), and Ian Livingstone. Livingstone was a massive games fan, and was captain of the Chess club in school, while Peake carved wood as a hobby. They soon made a business of selling boards for Chess, Go, and Backgammon.
[[File:O&W!01.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Owl And Weasel, issue #1.]]
In the same year Games Workshop put out its own newsletter, called "Owl And Weasel" which somehow wound up crossing the Atlantic and ending up in the hands of pen-and-paper-gamings' Jack Kirby, [[Gary Gygax]]. Gygax sent the trio a copy of [[Dungeons & Dragons]] to play-test for a review in their publication. Jackson and Livingstone were hooked and ordered six more copies. Gygax, thinking they were a much more established (as in established at all) company, offered them exclusive distribution rights in the entirety of Europe.

In 1977, Jackson and Livingstone accepted and began selling copies of the game straight out of the flat by using Owl And Weasel to get the word out. Gygax himself had also been selling out of his apartment at the time, and neither found out the other group was just a couple of nerdy kids selling shit out of their home. Peake left the company as he had no interest or patience in new games (yep, people complaining every time something new comes along have been in since the beginning). After he left, D&D exploded in popularity and people who came to buy a game were continually knocking on the floor-level homes in the building, before being directed to talk to Livingstone and Jackson on the top floor. Predictably, this earned them a boot out the door from the landlord.

They rented a small office to be the original Games Workshop, slept in a van in the car park, and bathed in the restrooms of a nearby sports club while pretending to be patrons. They continued distributing D&D through mail order but had absolutely no success in convincing established hobby shops to carry the product. Without alternative, Livingstone and Jackson bought a place in west London in 1978 to sell mostly imported American gaming accessories from Dungeons & Dragons to Call Of Cthulhu and more. The two entered into negotiations to merge with [[TSR Games]] to retain exclusive distribution rights, but the owners of TSR (other than Gygax, who supported the idea greatly) turned the offer down.

===Citadel===
[[File:White Dwaf Issue 1.jpg|thumb|right|300px|White Dwarf, issue #1.]]
The new building allowed them to host gaming conventions which would later become the famous [[Games Day]]. This was followed Owl And Weasel being discontinued and replaced with [[White Dwarf]], a small magazine (originally just black and white on colored stationery) written by the now obsessed tabletop gamer Livingstone, which covered industry-wide tabletop gaming news. White Dwarf was supposed to be sci-fi and fantasy neutral, referring both to a dying star and to, well, [[Dwarves]]. Originally the magazine was everything Livingstone felt like writing about, from movies to publishing short stories to computer and computer gaming-related articles. The letters section quickly became THE forum for tabletop gaming in <strike>the Old World</strike> Europe, where everything from rules clarifications to personal reviews were published. Interestingly, Livingstone published letters that were critical of both him and Games Workshop.

Games Workshop's very first new product, [[Reaper]] (not to be confused with [[Reaper Miniatures]]) was a basic fantasy skirmish game for between 5 and 30 miniatures. In 1978, [[Citadel Miniatures]] was established under a man named Bryan Ansell as the miniature manufacturing division for any future Games Workshop products, which would produce them in bulk. Although initially a separate company simply owned by the same people as Games Workshop, it would eventually merge in the 90's into one company with the name only being a vestigial remainder of independence.
[[File:GW 1982.jpg|thumb|right|400px|Games Workshop team, circa 1982. Pictured from top left to bottom right: Andy Patterson, <strike>John Lennon</strike> Anthony Epworth, <strike>Abraham</strike> Bryan Ansell, Diane Lane, Gerry Ball, Chrissie Lane, Alan Merritt, [[Rick Priestley]] pre-barber, and an unknown woman (possibly Priesley's wife).]]
This was followed in 1980 by the release of [[Valley Of The Four Winds]], a mostly forgotten fantasy game where two players fight over the fate of a realm. The side of evil consists of demons and the undead while the side of good consists of Elves, humans, and <strike>Dwarfs</strike> Dwarves (that spelling comes later). Battlecars was next, as a Mad Max style game. The first RPG created by Games Workshop was a licensed [[Doctor Who|Dr. Who]] role-playing game. [[Fighting Fantasy]] was a project of Livingstone and Jackson, a fairly popular game they would leave the company to pursue.

Nothing Games Workshop made was as successful as Dungeons & Dragons, which was now being carried by competitors. Citadel sold generic fantasy miniatures for use with D&D, but players only ever made small purchases and were not in the market to collect one of everything leaving some stock hard to move. Ansell had become the primary boss of the company, and his solution was the wargaming market that had begun to catch on internationally. At this point, Games Workshop was still very much a small business with most employees putting in work as needed; a writer or mail sorter would load shipments into the building or package products.
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===Warhammer===
In 1983, [[Warhammer Fantasy|Warhammer]] was released. It was created by Games Workshop writer Richard Halliwell and his friend (former mail order department) [[Rick Priestley]] (known by [[Meme|many nicknames on /tg/, often "The Based"]]). Priestley was mostly inspired by growing up and delving headfirst into both science fiction and history, the news of the Atomic Age, and World War 2; all of which led him to the first wargames, and eventually getting a job at Games Workshop with the goal of working on his own.
The requirements for the new product were simple.
# Take advantage of popular fantasy favored by gamers like [[Conan the Barbarian]] and [[Lord of the Rings]].
# Every model must have rules, so everything gets sold.
# Use six-sided dice since almost everyone everywhere already had some they could scrounge up to play the game.
Halliwell did the first draft for the game and did most of the work on raw mechanics, Priestley did development and editing. Originally having no actual miniatures associated with it, it simply consisted of a single set of three books giving a basic rule system and scenarios. The first book, '''Tabletop Battles''', and has the core rules plus a bestiary and list of potions to be found in addition to an example scenario called '''[[The Ziggurat of Doom]]'''. The second book is '''Magic''', containing the rules for magic where spellcasting characters with the right equipment and wizard level (1-4, with the highest level being Archmages) can spend Constitution to use their chosen spells. The final book, Characters, adds the roleplaying game aspects including leveling up, alignment, upkeep costs, and the '''The Redwake River Valley''' example scenario.

While filled with typos, contradictory rules, and BADLY needing an FAQ that never came (so they quickly set the standard for what GW would aspire to) it was well accepted for introducing the concepts of magic failing and of the psychology of forces on the field. The setting was almost non-existent, and what little lore there was only existed in the flavor text of magic items. Of special interest is the game was originally conceived partly as a wargame, partly as a roleplaying game with actual guidelines for leveling up your general and interacting with the world— even an alignment system! If anything, the game combined the role of Dungeon master and player into one as a character led a force of generalized encounters against each other and looted the dead. Every group of friends had a different world, as the results of a previous battle fitted into the unending campaigns of war. A major difference between current and early Warhammer is an extra player was required as a Game Master for a battle to take place.
[[File:Citadel Design Team 80s.jpg|thumb|right|400px|The Citadel Design Team in the early 1980's.]]

Ansell used the success of Warhammer to move Games Workshop HQ from London to Nottinghamshire, in what was presented as a merger but many at Games Workshop saw as a Citadel takeover. By that time there were six other Games Workshop locations, and cost appears to have been the only reason the name was not changed to Citadel. Few Games Workshop staff stayed on, as Nottinghamshire was in the midst of a nasty Thatcher-era labor dispute that saw employees harassed.

Due to popularity, an expansion for Warhammer called '''Forces of Fantasy''' was released in 1984 which began to describe the factions in the world (all still extremely generalized, mostly Dungeons & Dragons based). Once again containing three books (Forces of Fantasy, Fighting Fantasy Battles, and Arcane Magicks), it made the skirmish roleplaying game into a war roleplaying game with a fairly important magic system. The final booklet included, The Book Of Battalions, contained example armies for the game and included the favored armies of the Games Workshop staff, including the Perry Twins, Bryan Ansell, Nigel Stillman, and Based Priestley. The same year also saw Games Workshop stop importing printed books from the United States, and instead print them in the UK while also expanding into having a US headquarters and manufacturing division so as not to have to physically import goods in reverse.

Later in 1984, the second edition of Warhammer was released. It combined the expansions with the core game as well as suggested supplementary rules from White Dwarf. Combat was the core rules, like Tabletop Battles. Battle Magic is the same as Magic, although it reduces equipment requirements and instead adds the lores of Illusionists, Demonologists, and Elementalists plus the example scenario '''The Magnificent Sven'''. The final book, Battle Bestiary, includes the stats of all the factions and models in the game and guides for forming armies out of them as well as homebrew additions. Still having very loose rules, the game was three books although this time they were actually professionally printed rather than looking like something off a photocopier. Paper punchouts were included to represent troops rather than any miniature although Citadel produced a range of minis which were advertised in White Dwarf (although the rulebooks still said in those days to simply use whatever you want), and the very first Warhammer lore was established.
:The [[The Empire (Warhammer Fantasy)|Empire]] was a vague kingdom of men in decline, [[Chaos]] was some kind of Demonic extra-planar threat that prophesied the [[End Times|end of days]], there was some kind of ancient race that created the monsters of the world called [[Slann]], and [[High Elves (Warhammer Fantasy)|Elves]] had some kind of [[Dark Elves (Warhammer Fantasy)|civil war]] going on although the version presented in this book was a clash of kingdoms rather than a two way war of genocide.
:Three supplements were released, the first adding the very first Warhammer villain, [[Heinrich Kemmler]], in the [[Terror Of The Lichemaster]] campaign. The second, Bloodbath at Orcs' Drift, introduced the first [[Orcs & Goblins|Orcs to the setting]] (although they weren't the asexual greenskins of today, but rather generic Dungeons & Dragons Orcs and Half-Orcs). The third, '''Tragedy of McDeath''' was basically Warhammer Macbeth, involving a plot of necromancy with Dwarfs and humans who would eventually come to be the [[Bretonnia|Bretonnians]]. "Blood In The Streets", was just rules for fighting with buildings as well as paper scenery. The final expansion, Ravening Hordes, made the army choices much specific rather than relying on overlapping options.

On the side, Citadel had acquired the rights to produce miniatures for everything from [[Judge Dredd]] to [[Doctor Who]], and collaborated with many other companies including [[Ral Partha]] (one of their most successful partnerships, which launched Citadel into the mainstream of tabletop), Iron Claw Miniatures (which went out of business with their molds and copyrights being absorbed by Citadel), and Marauder Miniatures (technically another company owned by the founders of Games Workshop, much like Citadel itself, which was absorbed into the company in the early 90's much like Citadel would be absorbed by Games Workshop not long after).

Games Workshop saw aggressive expansion during this time, as White Dwarf went from a general nerd culture newsletter to specifically just a magazine for Games Workshop products which also functioned somewhat like a catalog and order form for new products. By opening physical retail stores to encourage gamers to meet at, they got easy advertising as Games Workshop products were on the shelves all around them. Many smaller companies began to suffer and close due to the slow death of the mail-order catalog business model that many companies relied heavily on.

Third edition Warhammer was also released in 1987, and was just a single hardback book (the ancestor of the [[Big Red Book]] of <strike>today</strike> yesteryear). The rules were finally ironed-out although the magic system remained the same. Players now controlled large forces with specialized troops including elites and warmachines, movement was extremely important tactically as there was Charge actions, and generally the game was considered a bit more complicated to pick up and learn than your average tabletop game. Games Workshop began to push it's own miniatures more and more, and the rules for certain types of troops came bundled with them rather than in the core book. The Warhammer setting was more fleshed out, and many consider this to be the first true edition of a Warhammer game fluffwise. Orcs and goblins were not connected and had females, undead didn't really have a reason to exist, Chaos only really mattered if you were talking about Chaos, the Empire's decline was because of cultural problems rather than being buttfucked by everyone else with twelve men or more at their command every other season, Elves were pretty much just snooty Elves and douchey Elves, Dwarves had no real flavor beyond Joseph Bugman existing, and the rest of the world was just kind of assumed to be like our own somewhat.
:Even going beyond this, [[Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay]] was released which introduced an entire world outside the not-Europe of the [[Old World]] by touching on Ind, Araby, [[Nippon]], [[Cathay]], [[Naggaroth]], and more.

Third edition had two expansions; [[Realm of Chaos]], written by Ansell as a blatant ripoff of Moorcock, which introduced everyone's favorite (or hated) [[Chaos Gods|Evil Sues]] and established Chaos in a way it would basically remain from that point on; Slaves To Darkness, which detailed pretty much everyone in the actual physical world who wanted to kill you for no particular reason; The Lost And The Damned which continued giving reasons why living in Warhammer would fucking suck; and finally Warhammer Siege which gave scenarios. So more or less the late 80's/early 90's introduced [[Grimdark|grimderp]], nicely paralleling the trend in comic books.

Also in 1983, to much less fanfare but still modest success, the board game [[Talisman]] was first released. In it, players are adventurers trying to obtain the Crown of Command and kill their opponents. In 1985 Talisman received a second edition, different only in that the pieces were printed in color. In 1986, an expansion set for Talisman, called Talisman Expansion Set (clever) was released which had an FAQ, more characters, alternate endings, and enough stuff for up to 12 players to play at once. Talisman: Dungeon came out in 1987 as well and came with an additional game board and rules for navigating it on the side of the main board.

GW also acquired the license to make Lord Of The Rings miniatures in '85, taking over from competitor Grenadier Miniatures. They'd lose this in 1987 GW, which passed to Mithril Miniatures.
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===[[Indrick Boreale|Spess: Tha Finuhl Frunteer]]===
Later that year, Games Workshop released [[Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader|Rogue Trader]]. Rogue Trader was Priestley's first creation, before he became the mail packager at Games Workshop HQ. Based on the idea of having a ship and using miniatures to play the game, and he'd refined the game as he did rules articles and sci-fi discussions in White Dwarf.

Conceived as a Frankenstein's Monster of of Warhammer/Judge Dredd/[[Dune]]/Moorcock/Heinlein/Lovecraft and John Milton's Paradise Lost (the latter work inspired the [[Horus Heresy]]) with a sprinkling of anything else perceived as cool, the game was functionally a combination of Warhammer 1st edition with Warhammer 3rd edition as a roleplaying/skirmish/wargame. It was mostly just an updated version of the game [[Laserburn]] by Ansell, who after the financial failure of his solo creation re-imagined it for Games Workshop.

Forces were originally just a [[Space Marines]] faction decided by rolling dice rather than listbuilding, which was added later as well as with most of the story in White Dwarf. The [[Imperium]] was given fluff, [[Orks]] were created as green skinned assholes described briefly in 3rd Edition although now with asexuality to go with it. Extremely complex rules for vehicles were added, and finally Ansell's Chaos was copy/pasted from Warhammer to Rogue Trader with the overt Moorcockyness removed. Priestley designed the Rogue Trader setting as part irony and part parody, with only self-deluded antivillains as protagonists.

It was hinted at various points that Warhammer 40,000 was Warhammer Fantasy in the future, then later than Sigmar was a "son" (its complicated) of the Emperor of 40k and thus all of Fantasy was a planet in the 40k universe, later that the 40k universe entirely existed in a box on a wizard's shelf in Fantasy, before finally the creators decided both Warhammers are reflections of each other in a multiverse.

===For Those About To Rock, We Sell-out You!===
Many employees in 1988-1990 left the company, unhappy with the increasingly profit-driven model of the company. Many created their own games, publications, and even went to Games Workshop's (few remaining) competitors. Notable was Fantasy Warlord, which barely sold enough to break even before shutting down. The miniatures created for Fantasy Warlord by Alternative Armies are actually still available, although some were sold to Mayhem Miniatures (which became Kennington Miniatures).

Unchallenged in the market (being the Apple of miniatures in that day), Games Workshop sought to expand its customer base into the mainstream. Television commercials were made, Games Workshop expanded aggressively into France and Australia, and the miniature lines were made less grotesque and more like the artwork. Any place that could support a major sports team was designated a potential, even eventual, Games Workshop location. Later on Games Workshop prospects were locations that could afford to support high end clothing stores like Marks & Spenser or toy store retail chains like Early Learning Centre. Games Workshop stores were designed to be friendly, with owners and employees being outgoing and knowledgeable about tabletop games while popular music like Grunge and early Alternative was played over speakers.

Ansell in the meantime had begin to expand the company into entirely different mediums, and due to his love of music had begun to use Games Workshop as a publisher for bands like Sabbat, Saxon, and Bolt Thrower. He opened a Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000-themed clothing line, licensed novels set in the universe, and funded [[LARP]] events. Ambitions that were not realized even included a gameshow set in 40k where players built robots to fight other robots (so a themed version of the television show Robot Wars).

In 1988, Talisman: Timescape was released in which players in the medieval core game could randomly be thrown through space and time into other time periods, mainly those inspired by Warhammer 40,000.

In the same year, to compete with rival [[FASA]] and their [[Battletech]] game, Games Workshop released [[Adeptus Titanicus]], a 10mm scale tabletop game where twelve [[Titan (Warhammer 40,000)|Imperial Titans]] fight each other in a city. Games Workshop tied the game to the 40k franchise to boost both games. White Dwarf expansions added rules for vehicles, infantry, and aerial combat.

Talisman: City came out in 1989 which added a new board, a city for players to interact with the city guards and buy/sell items. It was likewise followed by [[Space Marine]], which was a battle between two Space Marine armies and included miniatures for vehicles as well. In the same year, Codex Titanicus was released which combined Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus together into one game, the first edition of [[Epic]].

Over the next year the game received major additions including Knight, artillery, and infantry models in not only Space Marines, but also Imperial Guard (1991 Armies Of The Imperium), Chaos and Eldar (1992 Renegades), Orks and Squats (1992 Ork and Squat Warlords), and finally Tyranids (1995 Hive War).

===Bitch, Where's My Money?===
In 1991 Ansell left Games Workshop, and sold his shares to the General Manager [[Tom Kirby]]. Kirby's first order of business was to grow the company to quickly pay off what he had borrowed to buy it, and he was presented with two choices; grow the company with more diverse games or focus heavily on the two Warhammers. Kirby opted for the latter, and pushed the idea of more games in the two settings along with much bigger editions.

Warhammer 4th edition was released in 1992, with changes to rules bringing the term "Herohammer" into the fanbase as most of any given army was simply there to protect the powerful characters the game was REALLY about. This was the first edition that had miniatures specifically for everything in the rulebooks, had specific race selection that prohibited using troops of another type in your army, and had a starter set which contained a two-force starter game which was High Elves VS Goblins. Magic was entirely redone, and was marketed as an expansion and used cards as spells. Magic had two further expansions, one for general magic and one for Chaos. Warhammer lore was more fleshed out, coming to resemble more or less the factions of today. The Empire was the human focus of 4th edition, with the valiant knights having no mention.

In 1993, Games Workshop came out with ''Warhammer 40,000'', normally called ''Second Edition''. Like Warhammer (now "Warhammer Fantasy Battles"), it was built around small units of infantry supporting ridiculously munchkinized special characters with complicated rules and war gear and appropriately pricey lead models, but at this stage Games Workshop actually cared somewhat about customers; models were made in plastic or wallet-friendly, Roman-Empire-collapsing lead, game sets included serviceable army lists and collections of miniatures, and paints were provided in 20ml pots, later 17.5ml. This switch was perhaps the first sign of the next age (and every other age, by the looks of things as paints are now just 12ml per pot).

===Special NEERDS!===
In the same year the very first of what would later on fall under the label of "[[Specialist Games]]" (anything not Warhammer or Tolkien) was released; [[Man O' War]]. Warhammer Fantasy setting, but rather than commanding an army the players were heads of an armada on the high seas!

1993 also saw the release of the final 2e Talisman expansion, Talisman: Dragons. It added new characters, locations, spells, and items, all themed with dragons, into the game.

In 1994 the third edition of Talisman was released, adding miniatures, experience points, alterations to the board, and the biggest change of all; it was set in Warhammer Fantasy. Later that year, White Dwarf contained mini expansions to the game while the first true expansion, City Of Adventure, reintroduced the city board as well as a forest. Dungeon of Doom came next, adding the dungeon and a mountain.
The year also saw the launch of Second edition Epic, still consisting of two games. The first was a re-release of Space Marine that had Space Marines, Orks, and Eldar. The second game was Titan Legions which had the same factions.

In 1995 Dragon's Tower expanded Talisman 3e as an alternative end goal as players climbed a tower and killed a dragon (duh). It came with another White Dwarf expansion.

In 1996 [[Necromunda]] was released. Priestley was inspired by his meetings with the creator of Judge Dredd during the days of Games Workshop licensing the IP, and used it to resurrect the forgotten RPG aspect of Rogue Trader.

Fifth edition Fantasy was released in 1996 as well, along with its magic expansion which rebalanced and simplified the magic system and included all three 4e expansions. Cards remained available to buy, although all the Winds of Magic-based magic spells were included in the core rules (meaning you still had 20 more spells you had to buy cards for).

Of particular note is the Slann finally being fleshed out, creating the [[Lizardmen]] army with the starter being Bretonnia VS Lizardmen. Campaigns were released which were heavily involved in the lore; [[The Grudge Of Drong]] featured a conflict between Elves and Dwarfs which lead to the [[War of the Beard]], Tears Of Isha involved the bitter war between the High and Dark Elves, Idol Of Gork was the first time that Orcs were truly Orcy as known today with the introduction of [[Gork]] and [[Mork]] (or was it Mork and Gork?), Circle of Blood as the [[Vampire Counts]] (then still one army with the [[Tomb Kings|Mummies]]) VS Bretonnians as the first introduction of the [[Abhorash|Blood Dragons]], and Perilous Quest as a war between the Bretonnians and [[Wood Elves (Warhammer Fantasy)|Wood Elves]] during their introduction to the lore.

Each campaign came with multiple endings decided by player involvement (becoming the precursor to Warhammer events and one of GW's biggest fuckups), paper scenery which defined the architectural styles of the featured races from then on (although this was sadly the last time these races got scenery before everything simply became Empire and Chaos), and a campaign book summarizing the story.

At some point it was determined that the stock army lists weren't enough, and so "Army Books" (for Warhammer) and "Codex Books" (for 40Kl, later simply "Codex:(faction)") began to come out, each bringing new models and rules into the game. The last round of these for 40K (''Codex: Tyranids'' in particular) tended to make the army ridiculously overpowered and make everyone ''else'' want a new Codex to rectify the balance. Perhaps the ultimate example of ''Second Edition'' philosophy was the last book, ''Codex: Assassins'', which consisted of nothing but four hideously powerful special characters. These included [[Culexus|this asshole]] who caused the psychology effect ''Terror'' to all psykers, regardless of anything, meaning Greater Daemons and Hive Tyrants would occasionally shit themselves and run for the hills when faced with a normal-sized human.

[[Image:Haet trees.jpg|thumb|FUCK TREES]]
One notable aspect of this period was that Games Workshop hated trees, and would thus include several million cards in every boxed set if given the slightest provocation; the core sets for ''Warhammer'' and ''Warhammer 40,000'' both received an update governing the magic / psychic system which consisted solely of cards and templates (which were card). Some entire games (''Doom of the Eldar'', ''Battle for Armageddon'', ''[[Horus_Heresy#The_Board_Game|Horus Heresy]]'') came out in this period which consisted of nothing but a board and lots of high-density card counters to lose down the back of the sofa or inside the dog.

[[Gorkamorka]] came out in 1997, and was Priestley's answer to Mad Max meets 40k, featuring Orks in different groups crashed on a desolate planet using vehicular weapons to slaughter each other.
Third edition Epic was released as well as a single game with simplified rules, but it was a financial failure after barely moving any units in six months and was recalled. This is unfortunate because [[Jervis Johnson]] and [[Andy Chambers]] consider it the greatest game they ever made. Most of the planned models were never released.

[[Mordheim]], the Fantasy version of Necromunda set in the ruins of an Empire city where all factions are scrambling for control was released in 1998.

The last Specialist Game was [[Battlefleet Gothic]], essentially Man O'War in space using massive battleships.

And did no one think of [[Blood Bowl]]?

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===Learning The Wrong Lessons===
Despite the Specialist Games being massively popular, Kirby had expanded Games Workshop incredibly fast into unknown markets and as a result a massive amount of Gorkamorka sets in French, Spanish, and Italian were left unsold while English demand was high. Games Workshop was left almost on the verge of bankruptcy, causing a new sales philosophy to be decided upon. Rather than one based on restraint and market research as one would expect, the new direction was "only sure things, minimize risk". Suddenly, the irony of the 40k setting was dropped. The Imperium suddenly WAS the heroes, and Chaos was the evil that always wins in the end rather than these things being the punchline at the end of a sarcastic joke.

One of Bryan's policies for the company was that the production studio and creative minds must always be kept in charge of marketing or the company would die. Kirby, after Gorkamorka, decided the opposite was true. Given today's hindsight it turns out Bryan was right and this was one of many of Kirby's bad decisions.

Plans were made to phase out all of the Specialist Games, and over the next few years the only things available were simply unsold stock. An excuse was made for the first, Man O'War, that the molds had broken and somehow couldn't be fixed (bullshit for many reasons). The rest were quietly and unceremoniously dumped while all references to them were dropped as well.

Sometime in the run-up to ''Third Edition'', it was decided that models should switch from toddler-murdering lead to safe, pointy pewter (or "white metal" as the industry (not just GW) insisted on calling it). This led to a 25% cross-board increase in all metal mini costs, even those ordered through Citadel's back catalog (because those figures from their back catalogue were cast up, when ordered, in the new white metal). At this point, it seemed something clicked in the heads of GW's management; they had just made a ton more money without actually doing anything. Perhaps they could do that again.

''Third Edition'' 40K came out in 1998 and Warhammer Fantasy Battles 6th Edition (featuring Orcs VS Empire, and the last edition to come with paper scenery) came in 2000, both reducing the dominance of single munchkin characters in favour of large armies, conveniently meaning players had to buy far more models. Then along came the fucking screw-tops, and proof that any pretense of caring about the customer had been cast aside.

===Ringhammer===
Games Workshop had begun to suffer financial troubles in the late 90's with competition from the surging (and independent) Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition, [[Magic: The Gathering]], and [[Pokemon]] (no seriously, Pokemon was THAT fucking big back then).

The answer? Huge cash cow intellectual property. Priestley suggested to Kirby they cash in on the upcoming Lord of the Rings movies with the Lord Of The Rings Strategy Battle Game. Kirby was unable to see Priestley's ulterior motives through the dollar signs in his eyes and approved the project at once, so that particular series moved away from large and complex kits back to the roots of single characters and groups of soldiers.

[[Alessio Cavatore]], a major developer of Mordheim and supplement materials, was also put on the project and it was applauded by the gaming community. Games Workshop blew through the movie material and even began making miniatures based on things from Tolkien's works that weren't in the movie such as Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. Not only that, but they also expanded armies that were barely even mentioned in the books or seen in the movies (the Easterlings in particular) and then bragged about it in White Dwarf.

The miniatures were required to be produced in 25mm scale by contract, rather than the 28mm heroic scale used by Warhammer. Its been theorized by fans this was to keep the Tolkien miniatures out of Warhammer and keep their IP from becoming an expansion to GW's existing IP.

===Short Term Gain, Long Term Pain===
The issue is that as hype from the movies diminished, so did sales. Kirby by this point had expanded sales and marketing into autonomy, and when the interest in the game died down (something creative teams said would happen but marketing had shrugged off) the result was marketing attempting to drive up profits with unpopular schemes, the first among these being a major change the range of paints sold.
[[File:Citadel Paint Pots.jpg|thumb|right|300px|As time drug on, pots had less paint and worse seals.]]
The "problem" with the older flip-top paint pot designs that had been sold up until this point was that they actually kept [[paint]] usable for a long time. While the Citadel flip-top pot suffered from shit hinges and opening tabs which would both break after about four uses, [[rip and tear|a real man opens paint with his teeth anyway]] so that was not a problem. Obviously, these flip-tops were no good to GW, and so a new pot, the Screw(you)top, was designed which would gunk up its own thread and either glue itself shut forever or prevent an airtight seal forming after a couple of uses.

Apparently forgetting ''every other company in existence'' that made model paints, GW also raised the price of these new and terrible things; clearly justified, since they contained a mere 30% '''less''' paint than the old design. It was also around this point that photographs of the [['Eavy Metal]] studio started to vanish from the pages of ''White Dwarf'' (along with all other content that could be considered useful for anything at all other than advertising models) since they kept forgetting to hide all their non-Citadel gear for photoshoots. Even though, of course, everyone had known for ''years'' that the painters didn't "mix Snot Green with a little Chaos Black" to get a paint shade that was in Tamiya or Vallejo's stock range. Nowadays of course we can get the good stuff for cheap from [[Privateer Press]] (problem, GW?), but back then it was just ''fucking terrible''. GW managers and staff also suffered a change in personality, pushing the idea that anything other than GW was a ''plague'', and it was to be treated as such. "Saw you just bought some Knights of Minas Tirith, well, what about a Stompa?"

Games Workshop, highly resistant to change (ironically), began to see the shifting face of tabletop gaming towards electronics as unimportant with Kirby even calling video games "a fad". Just as Games Workshop had crushed their competition with physical stores, the internet distribution saw many new companies begin to emerge as they brought their products directly to the consumer via the internet. Games Workshop attempted to compete in this regard, although they never moved past having anything more complex than a digital version of a catalog and a little-moderated forum (which was closed down to much rage in the 2000's). Games Workship kneejerked and made White Dwarf exclusively Games Workshop products, allowing longtime competitor [[Dragon Magazine]] to reign triumphant as the source of tabletop gaming news in the last age of printed publications. Meanwhile a new market had emerged of making miniatures specifically designed to look like Warhammer models and be used in the game. This...did not go over well, and Games Workshop came to be known as ready to sue anyone at the drop of a hat, even once famously attempting to copyright "[[Pauldrons]]" and sue over the concept of a wolfskin cloak on a viking-looking warrior.

Prices began to ramp up ridiculously as GW realized they could charge whatever the hell they liked and their longterm fans would still pay. While GW was never particularly cheap, their chunky kits ended up in the same price bracket as top-quality scale miniatures by other companies; today, a [[Citadel Miniatures|Citadel]] Space Marine Hunter( 125-parts entirely cast in opaque plastic) costs about the same as AFV club's Churchill mk3 (400+ parts with 2 vinyl tracks, 22 metal springs, 29 Etched Brass pieces and a turned aluminium barrel). At some point, someone remembered that back in ''Second Edition'' days they actually had people willing to pay for gigantically expensive, limited-edition lead Thunderhawk Gunships. To hit this niche of "people with more money than sense," [[Forge World]] was created; all you had to do was get mom and dad to sign that second mortgage and stop being so damn selfish and a 40K-scale Titan would be yours.

===Minimize Effort, Maximize Rage===
In the year 2000, [[Warmaster]] was released. Designed by Based Priestley, it was essentially the Warhammer Fantasy version of Epic.
[[File:Gw_logo.png|thumb|400px|[[/pol/]] approves of the new logo]]
Fourth edition Warhammer 40k was released in 2004, and was more an advertisement for more models than an actual edition. It was advertised as being "backwards compatible", mostly because by itself it was barely a game. The rulebook was mostly sections of painted licensed plastic terrain and large models than anything else.

In 2005, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay was given a second edition which was largely the same but was up to date with the lore, and had a better magic system. It was used more to advertise the wargame however than as a frontline product. This came with a single unified rulebook for Lord Of The Rings that included the (greatly) expanded line in the form of the One Rulebook to Rule them All.

Around this time the bulk of plastic Warhammer scenery was released, with almost all of it in Fantasy geared towards the Empire or Chaos (with some trees maybe representing Elves?) and 40k towards the Imperium or Chaos (with a few Necron and Tau pieces from Forgeworld). Games Workshop had seemingly decided who the main characters were, and some factions in either game from this point on only were mentioned in passing while receiving no support or updates.

Seventh edition Warhammer Fantasy Battles in 2006 luckily avoided this, with Battle For Skull Pass as the starter set between Dwarfs and [[Goblins|Night Goblins]]. This marked the last major change for Warhammer Fantasy, as the next update only really changed by adding more models and having minor rebalancing. Many fans of armies like Bretonnia and Wood Elves were left very unhappy their army was not updated in 7e, relying on outdated rules and thus being extremely underpowered all in favor of an event.
Looking to resurrect the dying Lord Of The Rings game, Games Workshop released Legions Of Middle Earth, an "expansion" suggesting buying larger groups of models to use in a theme force using the existing rules.

[[Storm of Chaos]] was released as the major event of the 2000's to much pomp and circumstance, supposedly being the canonical transition from the old into the new as Chaos made its great attempt to destroy reality while every faction strapped on their wardrums and marched into the clusterfuck. Players were selected to actually play the factions to drive the narrative, and the community was kept informed of what was going on. There was a problem however... Chaos couldn't win. The bulk of the story for the event was driven by the fact a fuckhuge Chaos army was invading, but the players for Chaos couldn't even manage to scrape out of the starting gate. So the narrative kept going that Chaos was a fuckmassive force that made all the other fuckmassive forces pretty much not worthy of note, and every time a player on another faction beat a Chaos player before turn four the story would state that the other player had ''barely'' delayed the forces of Chaos for only a brief time and at great cost, sometimes their complete destruction occurring anyway despite the actual battle report results saying no Chaos survived the battle and almost none of the other army was killed.

In the end, Chaos was given one last chance in the very last match as the defenders (meaning they had the advantage) in the last battle. Even this, they lost. Badly. In a phone-in result where Games Workshop made a desperate bid that fans would choose for Chaos to win and make all the actual promised narrative unnecessary, players chose to let Chaos deservedly lose. So the event ended with [[Grimgor Ironhide|a single crazy fucking Orc]] headbutting [[Archaon|Chaos Darth Vader]] in the balls, laughing at him, and walking away and thus saving the world in an ending befitting a Saints Row game. Games Workshop quickly stopped promoting the event and from that point on pretended it never happened. Combined with their Eye of Terror campaign for 40k, where Chaos conquered Cadia but lost their entire fleet in Battlefleet Gothic games (leading GW with nowhere to go aside from 'Chaos sits on a planet until the Imperium shoot them off of it') caused GW to lose faith in player-driven narrative, due to the fact [[derp|that the players were driving the narrative.]]

In 2008, fifth edition Warhammer 40k was released and borrowed heavily from 7e WFB as well as implemented a HEAVY emphasis on cover rules while making shooting much more important. In 2009 Games Workshop launched released War Of The Ring, which made the skirmish game into a full-fledged wargame. The rules were highly simplified to enable quick games with larger groups of models.

===Dawn of the Great Derpening===
[[File:GWstockfail2.jpg|thumb|300px|right|GeeDub's stock taking a very hard fall. Coincidentally, their drop in stocks coincided with the 6th Edition release of the ultra-nerfed [[Tyranid]]s codex. Hilarious when you consider them to be the "shadow across the warp", it would appear that the Tyranids became GW's shadow across their profits, something they have yet to recover from after half a year. (The share price collapse was actually caused by a less-than-promising financial report released that day.)]]
The early 2010's could generously be described as GW's '''UNHOLY FUCKING DISASTER'''.

To start with, in 2010, Based Priestley left Games Workshop forever, saying that "the creative team was no longer doing anything creative" and "game development and game design wasn't of any interest to them. The current attitude in Games Workshop is that they're not a games company, that they're a model company selling collectibles."

In May 11th 2011, Games-Workshop's new terms of use [[Embargo | restricts sales of all of their products to the European Economic Area]], (EU + Norway, Switzerland and Iceland). This essentially removed Games Workshop products from online distributors other than themselves, and furthermore made their actual in-store stock of products highly limited with many models only being available directly through them (although many Friendly Local Game Stores will order from their website to fulfill requests). Oh, and they spiked the prices another 10-15% for most models.

Additionally, all metal models were on their way to being discontinued, to be replaced with much more expensive [[Finecast|Resin]] kits which were INCREDIBLY unpopular with the community due to low quality casts and high price without the sense it was worth it. Unlike the pewter kits (which are basically tin), the resin kits are loaded with carcinogens; strange, since last anyone checked the reason for switching to pewter in the first place was that lead was toxic (and nothing to do with hiking the price). The quality of the product could lead one to believe it was much much cheaper, but [[Casting|resin damages the mold more than pewter because it sticks to the mold more]]. It gets expensive when you have to replace molds more often, and they also break fairly easily so that all the little ten year old Smurf players have to buy new ones when they snap them in half. So essentially, Games Workshop not only ruined the quality of their models, they jacked up the prices and made it nearly impossible for anyone outside the EU and 'murrica to obtain it. Kinda like going from fine French wine to your corner-store cheap beer... and the beer is more expensive than the wine. And the beer gives you cancer.

Then-Chairman Tom Kirby mentioned in a 2011 press release that they were increasing cost cutting measures and making more products while avoiding mention of actual profits (note this is a summary, not his exact words). Given their charts, it was easy to see why he chose not to disclose the company's profits (or lack thereof).

[[File:Games Workshop Stocks.png|thumb|right|300px|Not being able to increase your revenue in a decade is a bad sign.]]
In 2013, Games Workshop decided to transfer their sales restriction to Canada, just as they had to Europe. As the United States had already had international sales cut back in 2003, this had lead to a large online market for Canadian retailers, selling their products at discount sales to US customers. However, with this new change, all international sales in North America are now completely gone, as GW once again decided to fuck over long term customers and local retailers in favor of luring more small children with disposable income to their overpriced, neckbeard-run stores.

MiniWargaming, a well known FLGS with an extensive online store, decided to close shop because of these new rules. Their store manager made [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnPpfs120DA an entire video explaining their reasons and going over just how asinine Games Workshop's new rules are.] Between jacking up prices, locking down international sales, and screwing over online sales and bitz sales, Games Workshop intentionally set itself on the fast track to running itself into the ground in the eyes of long term followers. Possibly due to their apparent belief that removing the entire world (excluding European Economic Area and Canada) from their consumer base is a good idea.

As far as games went, they at least made a dent on that front.

Eight Edition Warhammer Fantasy was released in 2010, introducing 40k-esque large models (and pretending Storm of Chaos didn't happen). Many fans hold that this is the most balanced the game ever was, despite some particularly nasty cheese existing (Warriors of Chaos, Dark Elves) and some factions STILL not getting long overdue updates and having to rely on 6th/7th edition books in a system that had nerfed the core mechanics their models relied on (Beastmen, Bretonnia). It was also best not to think about how a number of the situations that could arise would realistically play out or else your head would explode, since this was the edition in which fuckhuge orcs on boars would charge a unit of skinks, and they'd all die before they could even attack. It also had units dedicating their entire lives to protecting a weak frog turn and flee, while the weak frog stayed back and fought to the death in order to ensure his guards escaped. In 2011 it was expanded with [[Storm of Magic]] which introduced fuckhuge monsters from Forgeworld that could be summoned, as well as a redone (and pretty broken) magic system. This did poorly however as the magic was terribly balanced in the main game anyway, the additions here just made it worse and the additional spells/bonuses meant to help the weaker lores were only useful to a small number of armies/situations, while the prices of the monsters were laughably high and the rules for them were not worth taking over basic infantry.

Blood in the Badlands came out in 2012 and added siege combat and advanced scenarios to the game, strangely echoing the early days of Warhammer. As Lord Of The Rings interest had largely waned, it was rereleased with updated rulebooks, new models, and licensed The Hobbit miniatures in 2012 as well.

Between all that in 2012 came sixth edition Warhammer 40k, borrowing even more heavily from Warhammer Fantasy with psychic powers becoming a clone of Fantasy's magic phase while scenery became interactive. Furthermore, armies were no longer exclusive with mixed-faction lists being possible.

In 2013, Sigmar's Blood came out with a campaign between the Empire and Vampire Counts lead by [[Mannfred von Carstein]], introducing advanced diplomacy rules mostly involving misfortune, and The Desolation Of Smaug expansion to Lord Of The Rings finished off 2013 releases.

In late 2015, pop culture business site ICv2 reported that [[X-Wing]] [http://spikeybits.com/2016/03/warhammer-dethroned-top-5-miniature-games.html had dethroned Warhammer 40K as the top-selling miniatures game in the United States]. GW ''could have'' tried to sue George Lucas and Disney over the concept of a fascist galactic empire with fully-armored soldiers who enforce the Emperor's will, but sadly even they weren't that stupid, and they instead retaliated by refusing to renew [[Fantasy Flight Games]]' licences to the Warhammer IPs. (It could also be due to FFG being bought by Asmodee, a company GW views as a direct competitor to their new line of "Boxed Games".)

===The Fall of Warhammer===
[[File:Gymz Porkchop.jpg|thumb|300px|left]]
In 2014 the [[End Times]] event was announced for Warhammer Fantasy while Warhammer 40k got its seventh edition. 7e 40k removed restrictions even more on armies and simply allow you to mostly take whatever you want if you are okay with not getting some bonuses, although you get advantages for sticking to groups existing in the canon. Otherwise it added a lot more to the game, not all of it good. Notably Gargantuan Creatures and Super-heavies were added into the game and the world was introduced to the horrors of Unbound lists (as well as GW's obsession with formations - GW's way of selling their stocks of unpopular models by giving powerful bonus rules when playing them in bulk). They also added even more Warhammer Fantasy-esque psychic and terrain rules.

Meanwhile, End Times... ended Warhammer Fantasy. Billed as the next big thing, the event consisted of staggered releases of extremely expensive books, nearly as much as a new starter set, and new (very large and expensive) models. The books contained scenarios, massive amounts of lore, and also removed a great deal of restrictions on how armies are built; first by allowing an army to be 50% low-level characters (Heroes) and 50% high-level characters (Lords) so long as the default core requirement of 25% of your army on basic troops was fulfilled while turning every spellcaster into a master of magic, then by making magic even more fucking insane by diddling with spells and giving a metric fuckload of dice to cast them, then in the final book simply throwing all listbuilding rules out the window and saying "take whatever the fuck you want and put it on the table". Meanwhile the story consisted of nearly everyone except the Undead and Skaven taking it up the ass HARD from Chaos as it slowly meandered its way through all opposition to the heart of the Empire (read: what they wanted from Storm of Chaos); the undead got forcibly united under a reborn [[Nagash]] and the Skaven trolling everyone who was fighting Chaos. In the end the final faceoff occurred between Chaos (joined by the Skaven) and the "heroes" of the setting (both including and joined by the Undead). The "heroes" all failed miserably and were consumed by black nothingness filled with plagues, gnashing teeth, evil intellects, and naughty tentacles as the world simply '''ENDS'''. Fantasy fans were left feeling cold and full of hate, and for nearly a year simply assumed their setting had been completely and unceremoniously raped to death while all the resources and time they'd invested into the hobby had become worthless.

On a side note, multiple video games for Warhammer Fantasy were announced with some being released in this time, leaving fans tearing their hair out in frustration at the idiocy of killing a setting, then FINALLY making decent video games for it. This games include [[Total War: WARHAMMER]], [[Mordheim: City Of The Damned]], [[Man O' War: Corsair]], and [[The End Times: Vermintide]].

===Age Of Skubmar: The Great Derpening===
[[File:El Presidente Gym Porkchop.jpeg|thumb|left|500px|"El Presidente Gee Double U, the people wish to express their love and dedication to you. They may have used different words."]]
[[File:Age Of 40k.png|thumb|right|500px|Like a gut-torn rabbit hiding in a wooded thicket.]]
When it seemed it couldn't get any worse, Games Workshop then decided that since it had made 40k mostly like Fantasy, it would make Fantasy into 40k. A happier, LSD-fueled version of 40k.

That version, believed by some to have actually been made with [[Skub]] mixed directly into the material, was [[Age of Sigmar]] which removed literally ALL limitations on army building (as in you can take any models in the game from any faction in any number and call it an army, with rules for your opponent to play the game with an easy win condition if your army is x3 the size of theirs) and consists of a skirmish game which only has four rules, officially making it even less of a Warhammer than Warhammer 1st edition.

If that wasn't enough, almost everything was arbitrarily renamed to be trademark friendly. Zombies became "Deadwalkers", Elves became "Aelves", Dwarfs became "Duardin" despite the perfectly good trademark-friendly "Dawi" sitting right there, and Lizardmen were given the hilariously terrible name "Seraphon" which, if googled, brings up the career work of a [[furry]] tickle-fetish artist. (In their defense, the name already existed as the name of Elf Darth Vader's dragon in Warhammer. In their offense, the connection between that and Lizardmen was never actually given, so it's a moot point.) The only factions that escaped the renaming were the Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, but that turned out to be foreshadowing akin to seeing a huge silver line on the horizon on the day you plan to go to the beach.

The story was worse still, consisting of Norse mythology mixing with superhero comics in an awkward combination where Chaos Gods can be kidnapped by Elves, Warhammer Darth Vader becomes the master of the Dark Side rather than the other way around, and characters introduced and given importance in one book immediately die in the next.

The advertising for Age of Sigmar was the rules (all four pages of them) and the stats of existing models being free on launch, followed by outrageously expensive digital content that updated the game, the core lore advancement being contained within scenario books that are ludicrously expensive, and a requirement for many scenarios to have specific models which includes the expensive as hell new terrain, the rules of which can only be viewed by buying the model. To put it simply, Games Workshop managed to take the hated practice of DLC content in video games and push it fully, hard and deep into tabletop gaming.

To top it all off, Games Workshop, almost overnight, took down their iconic Space Marine statue that had sat in front of their headquarters for years and replaced it with a giant statue of a Stormcast Eternal (the <strike>Sigmarines</strike> Space Marines of Age of Sigmar). They also replaced the Imperium Eagle with Stormcast-style wings and a Ghal Maraz replica to really hammer the point home (pun intended). [[RAGE| The beloved servant of the Emperor was relegated to being hidden under a staircase and behind an advertisement for Age of Sigmar.]] We... really wish we were making this up.

Games Workshop had promised their investors in 2014 that 2015 would be a massive year of financial returns, although by the time of the [http://www.iii.co.uk/research/LSE:GAW/news/item/1792782/half-yearly-report-and-trading-update?context=LSE:GAW Half Yearly Report] they had grown a mere 1%. To make matters worse, this included the ample revenue from their new video game licenses as Age of Sigmar had been largely rejected by large portions of the gaming community as many stores were completely unable to even move starter sets, resulting in a few months of them being at clearance prices online through third party distributors. Further still, many [[FLGS]] dumped all Fantasy Warhammer stock, some even dropped Games Workshop stock entirely.

Considering the 2015 Financial Report of Games Workshop, Age of Sigmar was going nowhere and GW outright stated they do no market research and did not plan to start. [http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop-agm%3a-relentless-profit-machine They believe that only 20% of their fans actually play the game or give a fuck about the story so in their eyes the plot and rules are not to blame for any major decrease in sales and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck off.] Like it or not, Warhammer Fantasy is dead and buried while Age of Smegmar is here to stay.

Games Workshop plugged on ahead regardless by rebranding themselves, changing the names of Games Workshop Hobby Stores worldwide to Warhammer Stores after the deathrattle of The Hobbit merchandise.

===The Hangover===
Following the disastrous launch of Age of Sigmar, Games Workshop announced a plan in December 2015 to resurrect the Specialist Games division and the games Blood Bowl, Epic, Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, "And Many, Many More" while resurrecting the Tolkien games.

In February 2016, it was believed that Games Workshop used a Cease And Desist order to shutdown [[Warseer]], the largest Warhammer community forum other than /tg/, but thankfully that turned out to be a simple virus and database corruption (but to be fair, one could hardly be blamed for thinking GW responsible). In more substantiated dick-move news, Josh Reynolds, a freelance writer employed by Games Workshop known for actually answering fan questions about the setting and filling in plot holes in End Times (as many, MANY characters and plots were forgotten in the event even between books) and attempting to assure fans [[Sigmarines]] and Space Marines are totes different, was essentially told to shut the fuck up about GW IPs on social media while his entire list of lore mending was declared non-canon via being told to say nothing he writes reflects GW outside novels.

Going even further into community-souring, the popular Tomb Kings line and faction was squatted unceremoniously in the same month (worse than Squatted, at least the Squats got an explanation in-fluff as to why they disappeared), putting an end to Warhammer Egyptians and axing the faction that gave rise to all remaining Warhammer Undead. Needless to say, this was NOT well-received by fans, especially those who played Tomb Kings themselves and those sick of Age of Sigmar Stormstormed Stormbolters and their leader, the Celestial Primarch. This doesn't make sense, even for GW given their love of copyrights and patents, since the Tomb Kings faction was one of GW's more original creations (an Egyptian-themed non-evil undead civilization) and thus are easier to copyright (they could even have patented the name unlike with Space Marines or elves).

The only positive of axing the Tomb Kings is that it somewhat toughened the fanbase to endure when GW continued their douchey warpath by axing the Bretonnians faction and a large chunk of the Warhammer Fantasy models still in production. This included almost all named characters, while survivors of the purge were renamed to be generic (in a horrifying twist of fate, the very first Warhammer character Heinrich Kemmler was reassigned the name "Necromancer"). This wave of axing was mixed with wave after wave of Khorne Chaos, Archaon Chaos, and Sigmarine updates leaving everyone either with balls bluer than Tzeentch's ass (and Slaanesh's imprisoned everything) or dreading when their faction book came out and gutted classic and beloved models forever.

To sum up - GeeDubs started to fix their shit, but decided it was too much effort and went back on being raging dickmongers as usual.

A report that the 30k boxed set ''Betrayal At Calth'' had outsold the entire Age range coupled with a stock value steadily dropping down to their 2012 status in early/mid 2016 may have shocked stockholders, because the armies of Order that were squatted had selected models returned to the store for a "Last Chance, for reals this time guys!" sale on 4/18/16. Within the day most of the models had already sold, leaving the newest Sigmarines to remain collecting dust in their place.

===In Summary===
''It is the 3rd Millennium. For more than a hundred months Games Workshop has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Nottingham. It is the foremost of wargames by the will of the neckbeards, and master of a million tabletops by the might of their inexhaustible wallets. It is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with business strategies from the early Industrial Revolution Age. It is the Carrion Lord of the wargaming scene for whom a thousand veteran players are sacrificed every day, so that it may never truly die.''

''Yet even in its deathless state, GW continues its eternal vigilance. Mighty battleforce starter-sets cross the online-store-infested miasma of the internet, the only route between distant countries, their way lit by a draconian retail trade-agreement, the legal manifestation of the GW's will. Vast armies of lawyers give battle in GW's name on uncounted websites. Greatest amongst its soldiers are the Guardians of the IP, the Legal Team, bio-engineered super-assholes. Their comrades in arms are legion: the writing team and countless untested rulebooks, the ever vigilant redshirts, and the writers of White Dwarf, to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from other games, their own incompetence, Based Chinaman - and worse.''

''To support Games Workshop in such times is to spend untold billions. It is to support the cruelest and most dickish company imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of sales discounts and Warhammer Fantasy Battle, for so much has been dropped, never to be re-published again. Forget the promise of cheaper digital content and caring about the fanbase, for in the GW HQ there is only profit-seeking, Space Marines and Sigmarines. There is no fun amongst the hobby shops, only an eternity of raging and spending, and the laughter of former employees who left GW to join better companies.''

===New Games Workshop™: How Do You Do, Fellow Gamers?===
It was not expected, we couldn't have known, since the resignation of supreme leader [[Tom Kirby]] and the ascension of new CEO [[Kevin Rountree]] there has started to appear a pattern, sporadic reports of real discounts at [[Forgeworld]] and [[Black Library]], and then, in the last days of 2015 it has been revealed that major changes are coming, the sudden resurrection of specialist games, Games Workshop releasing starter sets with real ''saving'', all around the internet neckbeards are discussing and watching, wondering what's going on, perhaps the new guy in charge has decided is time to take some contingencies for the inevitable demise of tabletop gaming with the ever increasing development in 3D printing and the emergence of new alternatives. It seems like the boxes are a replacement for the old Battleforce packs, and while you don't get as many units as the old box, they are cheaper and usually come with a good mix of units to start a small army.

And now, there's an [http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/the-bugmans-xxxxxx-league-cup/ official (as in hosted and ran by the almighty GeeDubs themselves) Blood Bowl tournament] going on at Warhammer World on May 21st. Truly these are strange times. GW also appears to be preparing to start selling their product in toy stores (Toys-R-Us Etc.) as well as producing various Warhammer Merchandise such as pillows and journals (For Some Reason). Also now they've made a 40k starter set with simplified rules and all the paint you need to assemble the models. Clearly the sky is falling. (Also they've started making conversion tutorials and stuff, for some reason).

They also actually maintain their Facebook page now, and the other night they had an Age of Sigmar live tournament...

Also a number of the staff now have twitter accounts.

They've also taken over the internet leak game. When a sprue for the new Ahriman model was found on E(vil)Bay, GW not only showed off the sprue, but also the upcoming Kharn model. And recently, they've shown not only Daemon Primarch Magnus, but also new artwork, teased the Thousand Sons sprue, and made a reference to plastic SoB. Strangely, they had the Magnus video up and running mere hours after the model was leaked. And the red trashcan seen in the video looks similar to the background of the leaked photos. Is GW leaking their own products to get the Hype train up and running? Just as Planned, so it seems. Discussions with my local GW guy indicated it was a rogue employee, as nobody else would be allowed anywhere near the new models, probably a cleaner, who leaked the pictures.

BUUUUUTTT... They rehired Matt Ward.
May or may not be responsible for the return of Roboute Guilliman (which ironically has earned a lot of character development thanks to his return to 40k), or maybe Bobby G's return it's a symbolic gesture that they have finally decided to start fixing everything.

While some people will never be happy, there are few than can deny that GW has been making a massive improvement in the last year or so with their products, content, and relationship with the community. Genuinely good deals, well received releases and ad campaigns (the recent hero bases one is positively goofy, but in a "that's the GW we used to know and love" kinda way.), combined with actively encouraging and showing off fan input and content (even producing a house rules data sheet for a conversion AAAAAND putting pictures of [[Your Dudes]] ON THE MODELS PAGE ON THE ACTUAL WEBSITE!!!!!!!!!), altogether it's almost as if, dare I say it, GW has remembered how to be... [[Warhammer Fantasy|fun!]] They even made a new model for [[slambo]]!

Hell, GW is even straight up asking fans what they want brought back in the next made to order wave. Answer: [[Warhammer Fantasy]] (Well, at least we still have Total War: Warhammer as a consolation prize)... But behold friends, They cast Resurrection, hence Warhammer: The Old World!

As of January 2017, Games Workshop stock spiked 41% from November of 2015, '''bringing the stock's value higher than it was before the crash in 2014.''' Secret surveillance done by some fans reveal that after the crash a new board of directors was formed, it includes [[Sigmar]] and [[Roboute Guilliman]] (Matt Ward and Mortarion are teaming up), this may explain the sudden influx of good policies.

Games Workshop has been announced as the biggest riser in FTSE All-share index.

On a tragic side note unrelated to business, one of their most esteemed writers, Alan Bligh, died in May 2017. He will be sorely missed. In his absence the HH released have drastically slowed, probably because this leaves just 3 people in rules detachment for Horus Heresy '''and''' FW WH40k (two of those has little to no experience as rules writers, by the way). New releases still come out here and there, but they're about as common as they delays.

===2017-2020===
By the middle of 2018 Games Workshop has gone through many changes, the first indicators were not mere bluff, it seems the company is now in a new phase of expansion and successfully recovering terrain both in the skirmish, tabletop and specialist genres, let us see the list of achievements:
*Warhammer 40,000 entered it's 8th edition in July 2017, complete with a total revamp of the rules for [[Awesome|every playable faction]] in a refreshing departure from prior editions holding onto codexes from yet older editions (looking at you, [[Tyranids]]). Though full-blown codexes for all factions still had to be released individually, a series of complete indexes at least offered every faction the ability to play with modern rules right from the edition launch.
*Necromunda is back
**And the Squats with them, or at least a remnant in the form of a beardy mercenary, effectively killing the 20 years old meme (although they were at least mentioned again as far back as the 2012 6th edition rulebook). Not only that, but when they revealed his return, they referenced the meme themselves, making fun of the "Squat Clock" joke.
*In Warhammer Fest 2018 they released a photo of one of the new Sisters of Battle plastic models, the level of detail is exceptional, and it's just a line trooper.
*Adeptus Titanicus came back, in plastic, which, while it may be expensive, lets you use your knights, which mean it may be accessible even to people which "just" can buy knights.
*While Dawn of War 3 didn't go as well as expected, a new line of videogames are here, including the aforementioned Total War series with legacy tomb kings and Bretonnia, Adeptus Mechanicus, Vermintide 2 (which has sold over a million on PC), a videogame version of Titanicus, an enhaced edition of Spacehulk: Deathwing, the strategy game Gladius and Battlefleet Gothic: Armada 2 (which is set in the Gathering Storm).
*Duncan Rhodes and Chris Peach painting tutorials and tips of the day have become recurrent.
*Forgebane has become the first starter set with factions other than Space Marines, featuring [[Necron]]s and [[Adeptus Mechanicus]] trying to out-geek each other.
*Did we mention [[Kill Team]] is coming back?
*With Warhammer Community and Facebook GeeDubs has fully taken into the web and social media, with regular updates as well as regular, if controlled, interaction between the admin and the people posting in Facebook.
*Aside the 40k indexes/codexes giving some units some much needed attention, the return of Chapter Approved as an annual rebalancing medium and biannual FAQ adjustments continuously bring 40k into one of the single most balanced editions in it's history. While certain tactics and lists could still be [[Cheese|cheesy]], the noted attention to the current meta and rule rebalancing helped curtail much of the abuse.
*Age of Sigmar is bringing quite original factions such as the Kharadron Overlords and the Idoneth Deepkin, with less emphasis in Tolkienesque armies and more in "let's try to make this faction unique", also they have toned down the noblebright with Malign Portents, which gives a lot of focus on Nagash and his centuries-old plans to take over the Mortal Realms.
*Black Library has worked out to give more deep to the characters and settings of 40k and AoS, the former is exploring the aftermath of the Noctis Aeterna and the Indomitus Crusade, while setting some of the books in Holy Terra itself and its denizens, in AoS there has been more focus in exploring the background and personality of the Stormcast Eternals, their former lives, as well as giving some much needed focus to other mortal races and establishing potential new characters.
**On that note, Gotrek is back, with his first novel Realmslayer, looking for Felix in hopes he has reborn in this new reality.
*Some models from the squatted factions, Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, have been briefly returned for the Warhammer classic range.
*GW has gotten fully aboard laughing at themselves, with much of their recent media awash with memes, jokes, and jolly good humor. The reveal trailer of the Stormcast Eternals Sacrosanct Chamber, for instance, has an opening animation that [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9daI6m4KsM looks for all the world like something, well, ''we'' would make].
*Age of Sigmar has gotten a 2.0 edition that looks pretty good so far. The only big downside is the May 2019 Sylvaneth release was delayed with the merchandise stuck in customs, but that was due to Brexit related political and economic problems, which Geedubs acknowledged with good humor. The new Sylvaneth release came out late July and was very good and well-received, so all is fine on the arboreal front.
*With the advent of 40k's Psychic Awakening, GW seems fully intent on keeping the narrative rolling forward (even advertising the promise of wrapping up a number of loose ends), for better or worse. At least in regards to the "better", they fully intended to go into detail about ''all'' the factions in 40k with a slew of new models for good measure. This turned out to be something of a mixed bag, with many of the narratives doing little more than [[Advancing the Storyline|maintaining the status-quo]] while others seemed to suffer from fairly blatant favoritism.
**''Phoenix Rising'': First on deck is the Craftworld [[Eldar]] feuding with their [[Dark Eldar|sado-masochist kin]]. Jain-Zar paves the way as the first [[Awesome|plastic Phoenix Lord]] leading her Howling Banshee aspect against Drahzar and his Incubi disciples (all of which are also now in plastic). A battlebox set titled ''Blood of the Phoenix'' was released alongside this book featuring the aforementioned units alongside a gaggle of other plastic kits for each faction.
**''Faith and Fury'': Next brings the [[Black Templars]] against the combined might of several [[Chaos Space Marines|Chaos Space Marine Legions]]. Unfortunately, while the book includes expanded rules for the factions within, no new chapter/legion models or battleboxes are being released for the Templars or any of the mentioned CSM Legions. At least a brand new generic CSM [[Sorcerer (Warhammer 40,000)|Sorcerer]] launched with the book.
**''Blood of Baal'': The faceoff between the [[Blood Angels]] against resurgent [[Tyranids]]. A new plastic model for [[Mephiston]] graced the Blood Angels. Tyranids, unfortunately, continue their uninterrupted streak of not receiving any new models what-so-ever.
**''Ritual of the Damned'': The [[Dark Angels]] & [[Grey Knights]] square up against the [[Thousand Sons]], with a brand new Primaris Company Master for the Dark Angels being released (and no, it's none of the pre-existing Dark Angel characters, they opted to just make a completely new character).
**''The Greater Good'': A three-way war of propaganda erupts between the [[Imperial Guard]], [[Genestealer|Genestealer Cults]] and [[Tau|T'au Empire]]. A fancy new [[Shadowsun]] model launched with the book, as well as a new Start Collecting! bundle for Genestealer Cults, but the Imperial Guard received nothing outside the usual rule supplements.
**''Saga of the Beast'': An appropriately named conflict between the [[Space Wolves]] and [[Ork|Orks]]. A minty fresh plastic [[Ghazghkull Thraka]], [[Makari]] and primaris-ified [[Ragnar Blackmane]] released in the ''Prophecy of the Wolf'' battlebox.
**''Engine War'': The most inclusive and innovative Psychic Awakening slated for 2020 yet, the [[Adeptus Mechanicus]] and [[Imperial Knight|Imperial Knights]] fight their [[Chaos Knight|corrupted kin]] and the [[Chaos Daemons]] accompanying them. AdMech got the single largest batch of new units they've seen since the Skitarii launched back in 7th edition; Skitarii cavalry in the form of Serberys Sulpherhounds and Serberys Raiders mounted on cyberdogs, Sicarian jumppack infantry comprised of Pteraxii Skystalkers and Pteraxii Sterylizors and a 3-in-1 Archeopter with a transport, gunship and bomber variant filling virtually every conceivable role the Admech roster found lacking. Kinda puts every other PA to shame considering most only released one or two updated named characters, [[Imperial Guard|if]] [[Genestealer|they]] [[Tyranids|got]] [[Black Templar|anything]] [[Death Guard|at]] [[Thousand Sons|all]].
**''War of the Spider'': [[Fabius Bile]] returns with a fresh new plastic look, leading his Agents of Bile against a three-way-free-way involving the [[Adeptus Custodes|Talons of]] [[Sisters of Silence| the Emperor]], [[Officio Assassinorum]] and the [[Death Guard]].
**''Pariah'': [[Illuminor Szeras]] in his new plastic make-over and his [[Necron]] host stand against Lord Inquisitor Kyria Draxus and her contingent of [[Adepta Sororitas]] for... reasons I'm sure.
***Almost as an afterthought, the [[Deathwatch]] and [[Harlequins]] are getting a Psychic Awakening-lite release in the form of two separate White Dwarf articles (couldn't even be paired in the same book against each other) to be released this summer. Kind of an anti-climactic way to round out the remaining factions, particularly for the Deathwatch (who have their own codex) when the Black Templars (who're just crammed in the generic Space Marine codex) had significantly more fanfare.
*Plastic Sisters of Battle. That is all, even though they ran out of boxes in under three minutes. To be fair, GW apologized and said that, while they expected new SoB to be popular, they never expected them to be THAT popular. [[Shadow War: Armageddon|Because sometimes GW just. Doesn't. Learn]]. GW also promised to address insufficient number of limited edition boxes (hey, that's capitalism for ya) after their new factory is constructed.
* Warhammer: The Old World is technically the return of Warhammer Fantasy, although it won't be released for another three years.
**Despite (or perhaps because of) the continual stream of new releases pouring out monthly, prices still seem to be gradually creeping up to record heights, with the ''Blood of the Phoenix'', ''Adepta Sororitas: Sisters of Battle Army Set'' and ''Necromunda: Dark Uprising'' box sets well above $200 USD, with the Necromunda set dancing just around $290 USD. This is topped off by the exponentially expanded library of required reading players will need access to in order to play 40k in an official competitive manner (the annual Chapter Approved, the most up-to-date Codex (for Space Marine players, at least), any relevant Codex Supplements, Forge World Armoury Indexes, Campaign or Psychic Awakening books). While the latter issue may not be a concern to more freestyle or casual players, the increasing prices of the box sets make the prospect of getting new players into 40k ever more daunting.

===2020-2021: The Seeds of Treachery===
*When the initial surge of the COVID-19 pandemic went global (we know; something, something Nurglites), Games Workshop ceased doing online orders and closed many of their stores and factories around the world due to lockdown and quarantine policies in various countries including the UK. Thankfully, GW has been doing their best to maintain connection with the community online, lift spirits, and keep people informed about upcoming (albeit inevitably delayed) new releases.
**As of May 1st, GW's website re-opened for online orders in select locations (their webstore is still closed to the US, Canada, Italy, Australia and New Zealand). Their Forge World website is still closed and the Black Library is restricted to ebook sales only for the immediate future.
**In mid-June GW re-opened many physical stores, but social distancing is still recommended (including/especially for the Nurglites).
**GW's webstore is now fully online for everybody again, though many items now have quantity per customer limits to help compensate for their reduced ability to restock supplies. Additionally, while their factories are once again up and running, production is still continuing at a rather reduced rate, resulting in somewhat lengthy time frames for product to restock.
*Warhammer 40k entered its 9th edition in late 2020, giving the core rules a fair makeover without changing the gameplay mechanics too much. All 8th edition supplements and codexes are fully compatible with the new edition, but need to be replaced once their 9th edition variants launch.
*9th edition ushered in a new era for Necron players by propping them up as the main antagonistic faction of the new edition, granting them ''many'' new models and units in a near complete overhaul of their range. Space Marines, of course, also received yet another considerable slew of new Primaris units to keep the nearly 4-year long Space Marine release spree rolling strong.
*Though new codexes were being released near-monthly during the onset of 9th edition, further restrictions on production and shipping due to COVID-19 have resulted in extensive release delays for new codexes and models until further notice.
*Games workshop has recently hired several popular fan animators. These animations, previously available to anyone for free on youtube, are now being marketed as part of the new Warhammer+ streaming service. Furthermore, GW has recently released a change to its copyright rules banning all fan animations from making money.
*40k Kill Teams was ushered into the new edition with a new, frankly disgusting box set featuring the much coveted Heavy Intercessors and new Flayed Ones in one of ''the'' most imbalanced matchups ever seen. Priced at a rather steep $160 for 12 models in total, GW seems to have no reservations about continuing to bump up their prices.
*GW has doubled down on their animation ambitions and has signed on the talent behind very prominent fan-created projects such as ''Astartes'' and ''The Exodite'' to continue their work officially under GW's payroll. It remains to be seen how much free reign these formerly independent creators will be allowed, as the ''Astartes'' shorts were removed from their original Youtube home and transplanted onto Warhammer Community's website with a few notable edits (and definition drop).
**This has expanded into a more contentious issue as GW decided that they would jog sweatily behind the video streaming service with Warhammer+. As of May 2021, it's being promised as being the only place to see many original Warhammer-only animations like the Exodite, Astartes Part 2, and Angels of Death. Of course, [[rage|people are up in arms]] because all this shit that was originally free on Youtube thanks to crowdfunding is now being thrown behind a paywall.
**June 2021 has revealed some further aspects about Warhammer+; its launch date is slated for August 25th and it's not only going to have the original animations as part of its subscription service, but a surprisingly diverse catalog of content. Indeed, also included are exclusive models (one of which is given out to annual subscribers on their subscription anniversary with the other being available for purchase), included paid subscriptions to the 40K and AoS rules apps, inhouse Battle-Reports for AoS and 40k, painting tutorials and some back issues of [[White Dwarf]] and book series such as the Gathering Storm. All under an umbrella price-tag of £4.99/$5.99 a month (or £49.99/$59.99 a year). While tempting and all, it's still only a matter of time before the verdict comes in and people can judge the value of this not-so-ambitious model for milking money outside of the perpetual Codex Creep and plastic crack.
*In a rather interesting move, GW is preparing to release a series of rule supplements for an upcoming campaign: War Zone Charadon. The first book, ''The Book of Rust'' features the Adeptus Mechanicus, Imperial Knights and Death Guard, providing new rules, Codex Supplements and "Armies of Renown". At the time of announcement, neither the Imperial Knights or Adeptus Mechanicus have even had their 9th Edition codexes announced. As the AdMech codex has released about a month after the Book of Rust, it seems to be as compatible with 8E as it is with 9E as it didn't do anything to address any of the changes in editions.
**War Zone Charadon's second book, ''The Book of Fire'', continues the very questionable trend of dicking over factions that have yet to have their codexes released while granting more perks to armies, like the Adeptus Mechanicus and Sororitas, who just had their codexes released and are already in a relatively strong position. Chaos Space Marines get a token mention in the book...[[FAIL|by having their old rules reprinted, without even granting them the extra wound per model they sorely need]]. In the meantime, it's the best option if one wants to purchase the brand new Be'lakor and field him in his own special army.
*Kill Teams is getting another new edition (already?). This new version of Kill Teams does come with a rather juicy incentive: [[Awesome|plastic Death Korps of Krieg]] facing off against freshly minted Ork Kommandos. Indeed, to celebrate the launch, DKoK is getting a special plastic kit that can be used to make 10 standard Guardsmen or Veterans and even comes with enough extra bits and bobs to thoroughly customize individual models as specialists. Yes, they can be used for Kill Teams or for standard 40k. Yes, those bits include lots of shovels. Yes, GW released an animation of a Krieger killing an Ork with one.
**The new edition of Kill Teams features a very extensive overhaul of the game mechanics. Where last edition was built around a system relatively similar to 40k's gameplay, Kill Teams uses a completely different structure that does ''not'' translate to 40k.
*Speaking of Orks, their new codex was ushered in by a new box set containing a brand new Ork subfaction; the Beast Snaggas. These squig-riding/wrangling Orks are also accompanied by a fairly sizeable range refresh, including new Ork Boyz, Kommandos (per Kill Teams at least) and even new DeffKoptas. ''Unfortunately'', the new Ork Beast Snaggas box set was limited edition and was the only source of the Ork Codex until further notice.
*One minor complaint is that their Youtube comments section is almost always turned off; the complainers have clearly never seem how brain-breakingly terrible YouTube comments are because they'd consider this a good thing if they did. The fact that this is still better than the previous decade and a half shows how bad things really got. Thank fuck for sensible economic choices being finally deemed necessary.
*Another complaint aim at GW is them taking a stance in a political issue. After the George Floyd incident, GW released a statement on Twitter (https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449). The response from the community has been...mixed, with some praising GW for speaking out on an important issue and other saying that they should stay out of politics and accusing them of hypocrisy due to the recent price increase actually excluding more people from the hobby.
**Now the whole message that they wrote was almost certainly corporate bullshit, because almost every big company has released a similar statement. But that didn't stop parts of the community from acting like retards. On one side, leftyfags used the fact that a corporation said something they support to discuss plans to force people they disagree with out of hobby while changing the setting to be more "inclusive". On the other side, rightyfags got salty that most don't like calling black people racist slurs "as a joke" and call them names back while blaming "the SJW menace". So you know, overly political fucktards using a tragic situation to try and assimilate the rest of the community to their way of thinking and calling for their heads if they don't.
*Age of Sigmar's Broken Realms Saga was released to moderately positive reception, with it having more narrative impact on its setting than 40k's Psychic Awakening had. Following the conclusion of the Saga, AoS Third Edition was released, with revamps to older systems in the game, and the introduction of new ones such as Monstrous Rampages, Heroic Actions, and Universal Battalions. As well as new model ranges for Stormcast and Orruk Warclans.
**As of November 2021, the Age of Sigmar community has not suffered as badly from GW's predatory and ever infuriating business practices, especially in comparison to the 40k community. Partially this can be attributed to the smaller pool of officially licensed media or fanmade content meaning fewer incidents of NDA or copyright scumbaggery. Whatever the reasoning, many AoS fans still wait with baited breath for whenever GW finally slips up and squanders their last good graces.

===Back on the Old Shit===
[[File:GW Cease&Desist-Flashgits.png|right|thumb|400px|"Oh and how is that cease and desist coming for all those Youtube animation faggots?"]]
Turns out it was all a ruse, and that GW is still a shit company, as within a period of around 12 months GW has fallen back into almost all of their old habits again.
*Prices have slowly crept up again with many new (and a fair few old) kits being more expensive, and while this is only by a small amount in some cases, the creep in price is definitely felt in start battle boxes, as many of the recent ones have had little in it and cost far too much.
** Oh, and they made so much money on all you COVID shut-ins that [[Profit|they gave everyone in the company a £5,000 bonus]].
*Power creep has reached and surpassed the point it was during 7th edition, with every almost every new codex having broken and meta lists, typically built around new units introduced making so that GW in a not so subtle way is trying to make the best things for armies new stuff that no one will have, so people almost always have to buy the new thing to have competitive armies.
**Just for reference it took 16 years and 5 editions (3rd-7th) for the old system of 40k to become broken enough that GW decided to scrap the whole thing and redo it. It's taken around 4 years and 2 editions for the game to become as broke (and arguably a bit more broken) this time around.
*There were also several cases of false advertising, when the contents of the boxes did not match the description in articles on Warhammer community site (those had to be retroactively changed). On top of it just being a bad business practice, preorders of GW boxes in countries without official GW stores can open before said boxes are put on GW's webstore, therefore making people who believed those articles and paid up front understandably angry.
*GW has been also squashing fan animations and projects, updating their IP laws to have a [[Bullshit|"Zero Tolerance Stance"]] for people who use their IP and make money out of it without their permission. Commissioned fan art? Fan animation on Youtube? Patreon supported artist who makes Warhammer fanfiction? [[BLAM|"Cease and Desist, faggot."]] We have yet to see if this extends to people who make lore videos and battle reports, but considering GW has been burning down anything that could be in competition with Warhammer+, they soon could.
**After the channel [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxIy_cPihn8|"AbsolutelyNothing" discussed his run in with GW legal] it proved what a few people had believed: that GW was actually Shanghaiing a bunch of different creators to add to their Warhammer+ service and telling them to demonetise their content with the threat of legal trouble if they didn't. Because most fan animations were both of better quality than [[Ultramarines: The Movie|GW's]] [[Inquisitor_(film)|official]] [[Warhammer_Epic_40,000:_Final_Liberation|stuff]] and more importantly free, it meant that random cunts on Youtube would outperform Warhammer+. GW thus came in and offered those a job in order to make 'officially-sanctioned and supported' animations. Not a bad thing on its own, but with the fact that if the creators didn't agree they were forced to demonetise their entire channels and cancel any monetary support to make these animations shows that these meeting were pretty much just blackmail to either get creators to work for them or potentially cripple their main source of income. Though it's also easy to see why a company wouldn't want other people profiting from what they see as their product (even though it doesn't all actually belong to GamesWorkshop). But, GW is so ignorant of its fans, the company never realized these creators brought in people who bought 40K products. Usually not models, but everything else.
**Because of these new IP rules [[If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device]] has been shelved indefinitely as even though GW has not sent them anything yet, Alfabusa and the rest of the crew don't feel like their livelihoods are secure with the threat of GW breathing down their necks, thus killing what is arguably the widest reaching piece of free marketing for 40k. Images of guns and feet come to mind.
***Hilariously one of the few places that mostly doesn't give a shit about TTS indefinite hiatus is good old [[/tg/]]. While most disagree with overbearing IP rules, /tg/ has not been seeing eye-to-eye with projects like TTS as of late and the uproar on sites like Reddit and Twitter have generated large amount of mocking, joy and general feelings of schadenfreude on [[4chan]]. This stems mainly from screenshots of Twitter and Reddit accounts saying things along the lines of "I was thinking about getting into the hobby, but now I'm not", confirming in the mind of /tg/ that the majority of the TTS audience were [[That_Guy|no-model secondaries]] that didn't play the game to begin with. As far as /tg/ is concerned, those added nothing to the hobby to begin with and [[Just_as_planned|their removal from the fandom is a net positive in the long run]]. To say that this has caused somewhat of a rift to develop within the community would be an understatement. This comes off as laughably hypocritical from those people accusing TTS fans of not adding anything to the community, with them not only deriding one of the most beloved and wide reaching 40k fanmade series, but also being elitist gatekeepers who turn off new prospective fans from potentially joining the hobby. TTS also acted as a major way to bring people into buying everything other than models. The games, the books, and whatever else they could get that didn't involve physical effort and finding time to go to a store tucked into a forgotten corner of their hometown or a nearby city.
***Something else that is ironic about this is that it's [[Derp|technically the fans' - especially the Twitter and Reddit fans - own fault]]. One of the major issues with IP law is that you must constantly defend it in a given medium in order to retain it in that medium. Previously, this meant that GW, like every other game and model company, didn't give a shit about fan art and fan animation on le Internets because that just wasn't the medium they published their work in. In fact, they liked that stuff - it's free advertising. But then, Twitter, Reddit and YouTube asked - no, ''begged'' - for GeeDubs to hire animators such as the creator of the [[Astartes - a fan made animation|Astartes fan film]] and make their work official, [[Not_as_planned|not realizing]] that this would suddenly make the medium of Internet fan work a part of GeeDubs' publishing territory and as such subject to draconian IP law. Except that GW had no problem with fan animations even though GW also had its own animiations. Which means the medium cannot be the cause (especially since the fans weren't in financial competition with them) and GW took so long to bother them. It was most likely butthurt over everyone mocking their animations. Though, most of the out-cry is over the fact that the stuff they supposedly have these extremely talented people working on is nowhere near as high-quality as the people made on their own and the fact that GW also has been attacking a wide variety of animated 40K fanwork that has nothing to do with GW's own animations (TTS, for example, is totally different than the Ultramarines movie). And for the most part, GW still doesn't have any problem with fanart, fanfiction, etc. except when money is involved. Which means someday they're going to go after the wrong person and not realize it until they get sued for all their own countless IP thefts.
**All this prompted several content creators and online forums to [[RAGE|call for a boycott of GW's products]]. The uproar has been massive with the topic being amongst the most liked posts in the history of several Warhammer subreddits. The efficiency of the campaign will be seen in the next months.
*This has caused several fans who grew tired of GW’s shit to abandon Warhammer 40k in favor of [[Battletech]], which has recently seen something of a resurgence as of late. Which may eventually create the one thing Games Workshop fears the most, [[Not as Planned |a rival]] [[Derp |big enough to]] [[FAIL |threaten them directly.]] This could have far-reaching consequences in the future.

*tldr; Prices are creeping up, Codex's are broken and horribly balanced, GW is being about as anti-consumer as they can get, outside of throwing dried cat shit at people who walk into their stores and they seem to have nothing but contempt for the fanbase. So we're right back to where we were during 5th edition 40k.

==/tg/ Analysis Of Games Workshop==

===Blind Deaf-mutes===
In a [http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop-agm%3a-relentless-profit-machine meeting with shareholders], Games Workshop exhibited their attitudes quite plainly (and may or may not have mistaken 1/5th for a half).
*"- the word “Game” in Games Workshop encourages the misconception that games are its business, but that only about 20% of Games Workshop’s customers are gamers. The rest are modellers and collectors. Maybe half of them think about playing now and then. The other half have no intention. People actually walk into the stores because they’re curious about modelling fantastic armies."

When asked "-if the company would sell games with pre-painted easy to assemble miniatures like the popular Star Wars themed X-Wing game" they said:
*"It wouldn’t be a hobby business then, it would be a toy company."

*"-introducing products at new price points is different to reducing the recommended retail price, something the company resolutely refuses to do. It’s considering “putting more value in the box”, discounting in other words, when people buy in number. That ought to encourage gamer-modellers."

*"Potentially lucrative income from licenses granted to video games producers like the much anticipated and soon to be released Total War Warhammer will always be incidental because video gamers do not become modellers, and Games Workshop doesn’t know how to make good video games."

In their 2015 Financial Report, they stated:
*"The Group does not undertake research activities."
In the same report, the words "market" and "research" never referred to the same subject. They claim their main audience is teenagers, although they also state that the hobbyist crowd is their main fanbase. Furthermore, they make assumptions about their fanbase despite admitting that they do not research about them.

So what can be learned? Games Workshop has absolutely no long-term plan other than to make more expensive models, and cater to those who can drop thousands in a single impulse buy. Rather than expanding and reaching out to new customers, they are intentionally becoming a niche market for an elite crowd. In other words?
"Fuck you, you smelly hatless Irishman."

===The Digital Age (And Completely Missing the Point)===
Games Workshop would sign a deal with Apple to sell eBooks on the interwebz, instead of Amazon (the largest retailer worldwide), because then the books would have to be cheaper. Games Workshop refused to understand the fact that eBooks ''almost always'' cost less than what they would if bought from a book store. That 1 pence discount doesn't count.
(From GW point of view, even tho it's stupid to put the same price on eBooks as the Hardcover Army Books/Codices, it makes sense. Because if they were to sell them cheaper, they would sell much less books, meaning they'll lose money from the traditional books. Yes, it cost $80 in Australia for both the eBook and the Hardcover, which again is bullshit.)(A load of crap, 90 dollars for Hardcover Codex, 70 for ebook, in Aus.)

Though in this regard, GW does seem to be slowly figuring out what works: Dataslates are a cheap effective means of deploying models without committing to entire armies/detachments. Essentially like microtransactions. While around £3 might seem like a lot of money for only a few pages of crunch and only two or three new units/formations, they are some of the cheapest products GW have released in a good long time and they do also use these to repost entire rules sections dragged out of the codices in addition to the product itself, so you never needed the codex if you never owned it in the first place.

Some of the Dataslates are extremely high quality (like [[Cypher]]) and are virtually must-haves, while some others are complete dross (Reclusiam Command Squad?) that were dreamed up over a 5 minute coffee break just to sell something. But with the advent of 7th Edition, armies can be made up entirely of dataslates ''(or just go unbound)'' so they are no longer telling you how to build your army any more and you can keep it cheaper by bringing only a few models to make up your chosen formation.

[[File:Gamesworkshopinanutshell.png|thumb|300px|right|Games Workshop's probable downfall.]]

Oh, and they sell them in various formats so you don't need that iPad if you don't have one since eReaders can be downloaded for free and if you still don't have anything to read them on, then have a [[FAIL|think]] about how you got onto the Internet.
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===Why Games Workshop is Bad and Should Feel Bad===
One anon's perpsective on why GW hasn't collapsed in on itself yet. Keep in mind that was written some time during the Derpening when reading this.
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Never mind that large groups are often less efficient due to the fact that most people like to agree and be part of a group, even if the group is wrong. Forget that the burden of hard work is often shrugged off thanks to the assumption that everyone else will be carrying enough of the real challenges to pull things through (and that when things go wrong, it's a flaw of human nature that people don't like to admit and accept when they screw up). Instead, focus on the fact that the people heading GW – or most large corporations for that matter – are successful, rich, ordinary men who are blessed by good fortune in an unfair universe and probably don't realize the reality. Further, examine the knowledge that, according to Sun Tzu and a variety of psychological studies, successful rich people with the aforementioned profound luck are the folks most likely to make stupid mistakes out of anyone!

Now you know why GW (or the entire world, for that matter) is run the way it is.

A source of some debate on /tg/ is whether or not it is actually charging prices that make sense for the hobby. All logic points to a resounding “no”, but another interesting social phenomena is this: fanboyism is an inbuilt human process. Whenever money is spent on a good, especially a luxury item, man has a way of increasing the illusionary worth of that item.

Imagine buying tickets to see your local team play football, and they lose. It's not even a good game, to be honest. People around the country were disappointed. However, those tickets cost a lot of money, and having spent all that money for so little in return makes a person feel stupid. We grope for other things, then, to make the tickets worth while rather than admit we were wrong (even if we were only wrong due to events beyond our control) and learn from it. Yes, it was cold, but your wife was there, so you bonded! The beer was too expensive as well, but they sold your favorite brand! You had an experience! It was fun! Yes, those tickets were worth it in the end.

We'll even do this with soft drinks. Even if brain probes reveal a man likes Pepsi more than Coke, going back and telling the man what he was drinking can actually ''alter his memory'' so that he remembers liking the Coke more. It's amazing.

GW products are exactly the same way. They're ludicrously expensive. Even people who support GW fervently wish they weren't. It hurts. In a rough economy, it's hard to play the game. You spend months, years – who knows how long waiting for that new codex, it turns out to be awful compared to expectations (hello, Tyranids!) (UP YOURS ASSHOLE.), and now you've either got to suck it up and keep playing (got to buy the new Trygons, I guess, even though they aren't ''that'' great), or take a huge monetary loss and give up. Fanboyism steps in and makes it all okay. You're not just buying the models, but the game and the network utility too, so 40k is still totally fun and cool!

Big corporations, and GW as well, are predators. They feast on fanboyism. Like the [[Dark Eldar]], they prey on your suffering and write sick, stomach-turning poetry about the flowing, green streams of vital wealth they siphon from your being. You are a toy (''moreso than the articles they sell''). [[Hot Chicks|That cute girl at the convenience store you see all the time?]] Thanks to GW, you have to choose between inviting her to the theater and buying that new squadron of Guardsmen. Those of you scoffing at the dilemma, shut up; those Guardsmen won't cheat on you, dump you for someone else or nag nearly as much after you've had them for a little while, so it's <s>[[Neckbeard|totally a tough call.]]</s>{{BLAM|'''*BLAM!* HERESY!!! NOT CHOOSING THE EMPEROR'S FINEST IS HERESY!!!'''}}
But putty in their hands you may be, there are still some principles of basic economics that imply GW ''might not be earning enough revenue,'' and surprisingly, they can only lose more money by raising prices! There's no real way of knowing how things really are within GW without a look at the delicate, inner machinery of their business. But it does all come back to our first consideration: GW is run by the type of person most notable for making poor decisions – lucky, successful people, and a group, no less.

Whatever idiot wrote the following has no _actual_ business sense. Revenue ≠ Profit. Profit = Revenue - Cost... yes, but still give you a good idea about GW policy.

The situation is thus: there is more to money flow than just the bottom line, though often it's all we think of, but basically there's income, cost, and revenue. What is of most concern is revenue, which could also be thought of as [[profit]]. GW sells their models for a greater amount than what they cost, and the amount they make is revenue!

So now, there's revenue, and then there's marginal revenue. Revenue is just how much you make. Sell a thousand Guardsmen and make ten thousand dollars? Your Guardsmen revenue is $10,000! Marginal revenue, on the other hand, is how much you make ''compared to selling one less of the item''. In this case, the Guardsmen have a marginal revenue of $10. Each Guardsman made a profit of $10, and if you sold one less Guardsman, you'd make $10 less. See? Easy. Well, for this simplified example anyway (in reality there are a lot of fixed start-up costs, but point made).

Now let's raise prices. From now on, we'll sell half as many Guardsmen per box, and the boxes will cost the same. Now marginal revenue is $22, because every time a Guardsman is sold, we bring in $20 per Guardsman plus an additional $2 gets saved thanks to the Guardsmen we didn't make! This is cool – we're in business, just like GW, /tg/! Let's do that again – our customers are fans, they'll bear it! Now we'll sell five Guardsmen to a box, and we have a marginal revenue of $45!

Okay, wait, wait. I've got it. I'm a genius. Let's sell one Guardsman. Sell it for the same price we used to sell twenty of them! We're going to be rich! Marginal revenue is going to be amazing! Like, what, over a hundred dollars a purchase?

So what's our profit in the end? What! Negative? How!? We're making ''so much'' per model! The marginal revenue is ''so high''!

The answer is simple. Not enough people are buying one crappy Guardsman for $200 dollars. A few of the fans are sticking it out, hating us relentlessly, but newcomers to the game see the price tag and run screaming. People who can't afford it leave because they have no other choice, but they're happy in retrospect. Even some of our most loyal customers finally decided to just date that girl after all – one gets more of their money's worth from her ([[This Guy|one way]] [[Hot Chicks|or]] [[Promotions|another]]) and they'll deal with her constant bitching. Actual revenue is at an all time low.

Believe it or not, lots of other companies really do make this mistake, albeit not often to this extent (unless you check out [[Forge World]], anyway. Anyone want a Tau [[Manta]]? Under £1,000). It's because maximizing marginal revenue is very easy. It's simple arithmetic, and if your market base is rather inelastic (and GW's market base certainly is due to the high investment requirements of their games), a lot of times price changes won't have a huge impact, so it's easier to focus on. GW is at some point in the middle here, where it has started to become questionable.

It's hard to say if they're making right decisions or if their pricing makes the most sense. It's becoming the status quo that their games are really a hobby of those with absurd disposable income, which is not a quality described of the young men who are presumed to make up 40k's primary demographic. It's possible that they're targeting young teens with parents who will buy the models for them, but that's hard to say as well since parents will lack the dedicated fanboyism to continually invest in the absurdly priced hobby.

Mix in unbalanced rules that unfairly favor certain factions, long wait times between army updates, [[Casting|inferior model quality]] compared to what's provided to model hobbyists outside of the wargaming industry, and GW may have a recipe for a failing market.

In fact, by using some math and basic market theory, we can actually take a look at how much GW is supposedly spending to bring our hobby to us.

The list below will give us some basic numbers to work with. We know that GW currently sells its rule books at $74.25. What we don't know is GW's actual costs or how many books they're selling. These things have an impact on the math, but we'll sort of fudge it. Now, based on that alone, we want to price our book at twice what it costs to make the thing. In the real world all this nice math has the tendency to fly apart, but generally speaking that's the ideal manner of doing things. For example:

Quantity sold: 0
Price of book: $0
Estimated cost to GW: $0
Marginal Cost: $0
Marginal Revenue: $0
Total Revenue: $0

Quantity sold: 1
Price of book: $74.25
Estimated cost to GW: $37.13
Marginal Cost: $37.13
Marginal Revenue: $37.12
Total Revenue: $37.12

Quantity sold: 2
Price of book: $74.25
Estimated cost to GW: $74.25
Marginal Cost: $37.13
Marginal Revenue: $37.12
Total Revenue: $74.25

And so on. Since we're assuming that every book has a fixed cost to produce, we just get a rough idea of what it's actually costing GW to make rule books for us. Or so such is true only if we figure they're trying to price things according to a competitive market where the consumer sets the price. Basic economics says we want to have a marginal revenue equal to our marginal cost if we want to work with a price we can't really control, and that's what this does.

See, there's a few things to consider. The first is that, in a competitive market, people are just going to buy the cheapest product. That means whoever is selling cheapest kind of wins the day, but while GW could maybe sell their rule books at $20 each, they'd be suffering huge profit losses that are not directly proportionate to the change in price. Instead, they'll try to follow along with what the market is doing, and to their very best possible effort, they'll try to lower their costs so that the marginal costs equal the marginal revenue (or, again, their prices are basically double their production costs per item). That just simply maximizes revenue, since if they raise prices their competitors will undercut them and GW will be able to sell nothing.

But honestly, if you've read this far, then hopefully you're braced for this shock. According to estimates from a few publishers, it only costs about $3 per book to publish 5,000 hardback books, and that cost decreases as you publish in greater bulk. 40k books do have a lot of pretty pictures, so maybe that increases costs somewhat, but again, costs generally tend to get smaller as you order more of an item, and it's pretty likely that GW is not just settling for a measly 5,000 books internationally. They sell all over the world.

So where are all these other costs popping up that should cause GW to spend $37 on every single book they produce? In small production quantities, we'd consider the cost of labor. Who knows how much Matt Ward demands to be paid to lick every rule book before it leaves the factory! What do the photographers want in compensation? Actually, ''stop''. At GW's production rates, those expense considerations become almost ''completely negligible.'' You pay Matt Ward a salary to lick all the books. It's a yearly thing. You pay him once and you're done, so by the time you've produced a million books, even if you paid Matt a million dollars to slobber on every single page, Matt is only increasing the cost of the books by a dollar each.

Margins are all that matter. GW talks about overheads and so forth as an excuse, but that's insanity. In a perfectly competitive market you don't increase prices to cover overheads. You reduce the overheads because they're predictable annual costs that you more or less established on your own! Besides, you shouldn't be able to arbitrarily raise prices like that, seeing as how your competitors are supposedly keeping you in check! So really, what we can infer is the following:

A. Basically, GW has no competitors controlling their pricing right now. (This was especially true in the old days. Nowadays, this is less of an excuse as wargames and miniature companies branched out into all sorts of different fields. Thus, the monopoly GW used to have is no more.)

B. They are price gouging their players to fill the pockets of the people who run the company. (This scares off a lot of players, especially ones who have to buy a bunch just to keep up with the inconsistent update schedule or wish to start with a full army. Thus, the only people left are the people rich enough to afford it and those too ignorant to really think otherwise/the GWIDF)

C. Their pricing is not directly related to their costs, and anything they say to the contrary is a big fat lie. (This particular argument is used by Recaster supporters and proponents of 3-D Printers as they slowly advance in complexity to begin making more accurate and good-quality resin models.)

D. You could play another game, but all your friends are playing 40k anyway and you don't want to feel left out.

'''E. Fuck Games Workshop'''. ''' ''FUCK THEM WITH A FUCKING CHAINBLADE. NO. MAKE THAT A DAEMONHAMMER.'' '''

This article also explains the problem with Australian prices, in a slightly less detailed manner; [http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/04/the-iron-fist-how-games-workshop-intends-to-monopolise-the-online-sale-of-products/]

Games Workshop have sat pretty at the top of the miniature wargames shit-heap for many years (indeed, the scale models industry tries to ignore that they're the biggest single seller of miniatures) and have abused this position to increase their own profits. However, fortunately for the long suffering gamer alternatives are emerging. [[Privateer Press]] for example produce the games [[Warmachine]] and [[Hordes]] and offers slightly cheaper models and starter sets. In the market for wargames Privateer Press and Coolminiornot are rapidly emerging as a viable challenger to GW's monopoly while Reaper Miniatures takes them on using the same tactics that made them in the first place; licensing IP's, and making things for other games. They are the Tau, Dark Eldar, and Chaos to GW's Imperium.

Also worthy of note is [[Mantic Games]] who produce [[Kings of War]], a fantasy battle game in a similar vein to Warhammer. The rules system was even written by former GW man Alessio Cavatore (essentially succeeding at what every frustrated ex-GW employee since 1988 has dreamed of) and it is fast, fluid and a lot more "fun" than Warhammer. The company is pioneering the use of plastic-resin alloy (or 'restic') as a cost effective alternative to pewter. Oh, and equivalent plastic models cost about HALF what GW charge (e.g. GW High Elf Spearmen (16 models) - £20, Mantic Games Elf Spearmen (20 models) - £13.99) the trade-off however is that Mantic models look like hammered dogshit. Mantic are basically the war gaming equivalent of Asylum films.

One can only hope that these new upstarts will beat down GWs monopolistic hold on the [[wargame]] market.
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===A Sobering Look at GW's Near Collapse===
On top of all the other financial considerations involved with a company like Games Workshop, there's one major concern that was probably gravely overlooked by the company as it raised prices and cut smaller retailers out of the picture: a concept called "network utility". A lot of products are useless unless they're used by a ton of people. A fax machine is a good example - if everyone owns a fax machine, then one person can use his own fax machine to send pictures of his ass to everyone on earth. That's a good value for a single person, and really makes the fax machine worth buying! However, if fewer people buy fax machines, it becomes less and less desirable to own one. After all, why buy a machine that's only capable of sending a picture of your butt to your grandmother, the only other person who still has a machine? Grandma is never impressed, anyway.

A similar concept exists with GW, and they've ignored it over the past couple of years, especially as they've cut models out of starter sets to reduce costs. If you go down to your local game store and everyone is playing Warhammer 40k, not only are you more likely to get into it because of friendly recommendations, but you're also likely to start playing because you know everyone has an army and everyone can play with you! Even if you aren't personal friends with the folks at your local game store, you know that anywhere you go, the people you meet at the FLGS can play the game with you!

The more difficult GW made it to carry their products, the more game stores turned to alternatives to fill shelves. [[Spartan Games]] and [[Privateer Press]] quickly moved in to fill the void with creative new IP (at least until they ran into their own problems). [[Fantasy Flight Games]] upped the ante even further with Star Wars product that was table ready straight out of the box. The network utility of FFG's products was huge because it was so accessible, making it the go-to for casuals looking to buy into whatever had the most players, despite FFG's extortionate pricing.

Now, models (and games in general) have gotten more expensive; granted, only scaled in price with inflation, but since wages have largely stagnated in a lot of markets these past couple decades, to the typical consumer the costs still feel like they've gone up and the players notice the hikes. When a product gets more expensive, people naturally quit buying it. This thins the dedicated player herd.

Meanwhile, GW also drags its feet when it comes to codex updates, and when it does update, there's no telling whether or not a new codex is going to be a complete load of shit. The Tyranid codex being a huge let down for two editions running is probably one of the most critical examples. Anyone who collected Tyranids as a main army has pretty well given up hope by now, and they've quit collecting. Other players with armies in similar straits, likely feeling abandoned during 5th edition when GW focused exclusively on Space Marines, have also probably drifted away from the hobby. Of course, there have also been a few people who just quit playing out of disgust because their local meta was a bit too hardcore and there was no way to win games without exploiting the broken, disjointed lack of balance.

Although Games Workshop continued to hike up prices and showed fantastic profits in the short term, these issues probably alienated too many people, and as they roll along with the next edition and new codices, they're probably discovering, with great horror, that there aren't enough players buying into it anymore. Worse, the effect can snowball out of control, and GW will probably lose their market control in one big flash of failure. Almost overnight, it'll suddenly seem that 40k has evaporated.

When there are too few players in the game, it's no longer true that you can go to your FLGS and play with any stranger in the store. There's always that one guy - that rich asshole who owns every army in the book and consequently has some of the most boring, broken, frustrating army lists to play against. But do you really want to play against that guy every single weekend? Eventually, you quit showing up to play 40k as well, and once you're gone, even that dick with all his money has no more reason to play. The final pillar falls, and Games Workshop is no more.

In other words, the player base has always been the most important foundation of the company, and it was always GW's greatest strength. Not the model quality, not the rules, not the setting or any of the IP that they keep suing their fans over. The reason Games Workshop dominated was because everyone played their games. As soon as that's no longer the case, the company can't save itself by releasing new models or updating the rules. Their reign is over. They topple, because the foundations have shrunk.

===GW The Bully===
Games Workshop has long had a history of being one of the most litigious companies in regards to its IP in ''existence''. One needs look no further than our own [[Pauldrons]] article to get an idea of how bad it is, in that it uses its designs to openly fight any company that dares have any remote similarity to its own models in any way, shape, or form. You have any wargame with armored dudes with big pauldrons? Lawsuit. You run a company that makes third-party components for existing models? [[Derp|Lawsuit]]. You make anything remotely resembling any GW IP ever and aren't a massive company that could actually contest the giant copyright stick GW is swinging around and make them look like the idiots they are? [[Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies|LAWSUIT]].

Whilst GW has a lengthy history of overstepping boundaries in its war to enforce its copyright, it only recently decided to go [[Deathstrike Missile Launcher|nuclear]]. [http://boingboing.net/2013/02/06/games-workshop-trademark-bully.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter In 2013, GW launched the claim that it owns the phrase ''Space Marine''], ignoring that sci-fi has used the terminology for the better part of eighty years (and showing their hypocrisy as Games Workshop shamelessly stole the term 'Eldar' from [[Tolkien]]; yes, he invented the word 'Eldar'). The story in question "Spots the Space Marine" is about a middle age housewife, nicknamed Spots, being recalled back to the Marine corp (ie a Real Marine, in space) to fight giant enemy crabs (in space). It had nothing to do with GW's Space Marines or the Warhammer 40K setting.

*The History of the term "Space Marine"; The first known use of term 'Space Marine' was made by sci-fi author Bob Olsen (real name; Alfred Johannes Olsen, 1884-1956), who first used the term in his short story "Captain Brink of the Space Marines" from his "Amazing Stories" series, first published in '''1932'''. Warhammer 40K started as the Second Edition of Rogue Trader and was released in 1993, while [[Rogue Trader]] itself was released in 1987. Games Workshop was founded in 1975 and even its oldest founding member (Ian Livingstone) was born in 1949. Therefore, the term Space Marine was in use for forty-three years before Games Workshop existed and over a decade before any of the founders were even born. Plus, with a bit of use of copyright law, in 2026 (seventy years after Bob Olsen died), the term Space Marine could theoretically become public domain, then GW would no longer be able to copyright it then.

This means that what GW tried to do was plagiarism, which is a direct violation of copyright law. Games Workshop's strategy to make "space marine" less generic involved launching high profile, bullying attacks on every professional author or artist who isn't associated with a huge company who uses it, trying to make it so people hearing the phrase immediately conclude that [[Derp|it ''must'' be related to Games Workshop]], because ''everyone'' knows [[Eldrad|what enormous cocks]] they are whenever anyone else uses the phrase. These attacks were not, again, targeted at any opponent that could credibly fight back; this is because if it actually came to attempts to litigate over the phrase, GW would be laughed out of court. It wasn't not going to stop GW from being cocks, though. In fact, as of 2014, [[Herp|Games Workshop's website still has 'Space Marine' listed as one of their copyrights]]. This copyright backlash made them rename the Imperial Guard "Astra Militarum" (This is not the correct Latin declension for "Star Military." If it was the correct declension, then it would be just as hard to trade mark as "Imperial Guard"), but their hard-on for Space Marines stopped GW from renaming the codex something original, such as "Adeptus Astartes".

After the failure and fiasco of the suit against Spots the Space Marine, GW would post a lengthy and self defeating rant on their own Facebook page, which basically displayed the ignorance of those writing the post. Shortly afterwards, the Facebook page went down after the backlash it caused. Several who queried GW over the pages removal were told that GW wished for the experience with the fanbase to be more personal, thus people should be following their own GW stores.

Their bullying came back to bite them in the ass after a failed attempt at suing third-party manufacturer [[ChapterHouse Studios]]; when they refused to back down from GW's threats to sue them for making unauthorized models (specifically Mycetic Spores, the Doom of Malan'tai, and the Parasite of Mortrex), the lawsuit went to court- which GW [[FAIL|failed]] to argue the majority of alleged copyright breaches. Apparently, just writing up the rules for a model doesn't give you the sole rights to making that model after all. Undaunted, GW did the next best thing-[[Rage|they removed the offending entries from the Tyranid codex]], cutting off its nose to spite its face. Way to put the customer first, GeeDubs. At least now we know how to save the galaxy from the Tyranids: make and sell unsanctioned Tyranid models.

Now, despite their changes for the better, their hypocrisy came back to haunt them in August 2017 when[https://spikeybits.com/2017/08/games-workshop-is-being-sued-for-62-5m.html Games Workshop got sued in the US to the tune of 62.5 million for, among other things "...stolen Intellectual property of others to establish it’s Warhammer 40,000 game in the 1980s"] Fans felt bad, worried about the future of the hobby or cheered that what goes around comes around (the latter since GW sued people for far less; see "Spots the Space Marine" above). However, given the lawsuit's bizarre, poorly written and ignorant case (eg; H.R Giger does not own the idea of aliens who use other species for their reproductive cycle and accusing Games Workshop of being European Communists) Moore's case fell apart and was dismissed in October 2017. Imagine failing to sue GW over stolen intellectual property when 40K is essentially made of other people's IP. Perhaps this was intentional, assuming double jeopardy applies to lawsuits.

Of course GW's early copyright mistakes have also bit them in the ass; [[Tony Ackland]] still owns his Daemon designs as discussed above, and [[Kev Adams]] was only ever sculpting generic greenskins which he still owns the molds for. Both lend their talents (and IP work) to the company [[Knightmare Miniatures]], who produce Daemons based on the original [[Realm of Chaos]] art, the sculpts of Kev's greenskins both new and old, and a number of 40k-related works as well. If you're wondering why GW never went after them, the two are VERY popular among the tabletop gamer community so they could easily raise the funds needed to defend themselves in court (Kev himself has already demonstrated that given the money the community raised to fund surgeries for him after he got stabbed in the fucking eye by a burglar), and since GW themselves ripped off their work the same way most 3rd party companies rip off theirs then there's always a chance they could lose the rights to make Daemonettes/Plaguebearers/Horrors/Bloodletters/Black Orcs/Night Goblins and so on in a countersuit. While renaming Black Orcs and Night Goblins as Orruk 'Ardboyz and Gloomspite Gitz might be an attempt to deflect this, Bloodletters, Horrors and Daemonettes would still be vulnerable.

===The ₽₹¥€£$===
[[Image:1271198871887.jpg|thumb|right|250px|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSxQnZ3TM8 Games Workshop's typical meeting board]]]
'''In the grim darkness of the near future, the prices must beat inflation.'''

GW is infamous for their steep prices, and they would have been replaced by a more reasonable company for gaming dominance if their popularity wasn't XBOXHUEG compared to their competitors. These price hikes have been around forever, as the rise of video games (people buying fewer models in general over time) and currency inflation have necessitated "adaptation to a more niche market". The infamous price hikes that /tg/ will remember (and be ass-mad about) forever occurred within the decade span from 2005 to 2015. Between these dates, it is safe to say that every model kit raised its price 50%, with some kits doubling in price. Note that /tg/ came into being during the price hikes, and spent most of it's lifetime (and all of it's formative years) suffering under them.

Games Workshop also have a nasty habit of making prices proportional to how good a model/unit is in-game, rather than the actual cost of materials and manufacture.

Of course, if we really want to stop the price hikes, [[/tg/]] should probably start a legitimate campaign to give perspective and shine the spotlight on other wargames like Warmachine, but /tg/ can't get REAL shit done! Regardless, it definitely won't stop until Brexit related nonsense and the Corona Pandemic are over.

The prices didn't stop them or their model customers. However, due to GW's recent bout of shittiness, people have turned more and more to 3D printing only to discover just how vast an amount GW has actually been gouged people over the years. This revelation has gone viral in the 40K community and, unlike GW, the makers of BattleTech encourage fans to use 3D printing whereas GamesWorkshop has had a small meltdown on the subject. Talk about being hoisted by your own petard.

==Positives about Games Workshop==
Take this as virtues that outshine the bad, being damned with faint praise or anything in between as you will...

*Their art departments are (usually) top notch, with every race or faction being iconic (you can easily identify Tau, Eldar, Astartes, Lizardmen, Druchii, etc at a glance) and rich in visual details, and cool minis with great conversion potential.
*GW has legitimately ''good'' customer service. If you order something from them and it gets lost in the mail or it's got a botched cast on the sprue, they will replace it without hesitation, and stick a warp drive (and a fully-functioning gellar field) on it to make sure you get it as soon as possible.
**Scratch that if we're talking Forgeworld. ''Yes, sir, that 2mm mold line shift on the leg of your Terminator is perfectly acceptable quality''
*They usually have something for anyone when it comes to fantasy or scifi, their armies, while not often the most original, are still fun to collect and paint, and will often have fun lore with lots of characters, interesting plot twists and a lot of potentiality for YOUR DUDES.
*They have influenced the entire fantasy genre from staples like green orcs, Meso lizardfolk and non-evil undead nations to evolving wargames and creating the modern fantasy miniature market.
*Growth! They have become the entry point for many people into tabletop gaming, which in turn has allowed the tabletop industry to expand.
*Sense of humour, as a company they like to joke about themselves and their settings, while they can often be grimderpy and bland they use their social media to make clear they are aware about their own thematic shortcomings (And now open more Sigmarine Chambers!).
*They actually pay decent wages even to the people on the lower end of their corporate food chain, on top of bonuses when the company does well, and comply to labour union standards with little to no commotion. All around, not the worst employer you can have.
*Most of their products are made in UK-based factories. So no outsourcing to developed or developing countries with unethical worker rights. Exceptions are terrains, books and cardboards, which are still produced in other countries and backfired hard recently with the Cursed City disaster. The one reason Geedub doesn't produce their plastic crack soldiers in other countries is their fear of cheap copies. So instead they only contribute to climate change by ferrying tons of cardboard and other gaming materials around the globe. At least they don't have a fetish for cardboard like FFG. Oh, and their main factory recently installed a shit ton of solar panels on its roof. Environmentally friendly Space marines, or just calculating businessmen

==See Also==
* [https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GAW.L?p=GAW.L&.tsrc=fin-srch The current Games Workshop stock values, and articles on their financial status.]
* [[Rage]]
* [[Casting]]
* [[Heresy]]
* [[Proxy]]
* [[Counts As]]
* [[C.S. Goto]]
* [[Matthew Ward]]
* [[Black Library]]
* [[Citadel Miniatures]]
* [[Forge World]]
* [[Citadel Combat Cards]]
* [[40K Rules Blooper Reel]], for GW's long history of shoddy editing
* [[Army compatibility between Warhammer settings]]
* [[List of GW's cash grabs]]

==External Links==
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSxQnZ3TM8 This Video]
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnPpfs120DA A measured response to changes in the Trade Agreement]

{{Model Manufacturers}}

[[Category:Warhammer Fantasy]][[Category:Warhammer 40,000]][[Category:Age of Sigmar]][[Category:Publishers]][[Category:Games Workshop]][[Category: Model Manufacturers]][[Category:Tabletop Game Paint Manufacturers]]

Centurion Squad

2021-12-07T07:25:08Z

2001:8003:1D0D:301:83:B080:83CF:C1CF: >Strikethrough

:''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSxQnZ3TM8 Hear me out. A Space Marine... inside of a Space Marine.]''
[[File:Centurion6.jpg|300px|thumb|right|At least it looks better than the [[Dreadknight]]...]]
Hey, you! Tired of just one heavy bolter? Wish to crush your foes with their own armour? Wonder why your devastator sergeant doesn't have any heavy weapons? Crave [[Anime|GIANT FUCKING DRILLS]]? Then the new centurion warsuit is for you!

==Centurion Squads==
A centurion squad is a new(relatively) type of [[Space Marines|space marine]] squad available with the release of [[Warhammer 40,000 6th edition|6th edition]], which are a real pain in the ass to paint. [[Power armour#Centurion Armour|Centurion armour]] is a warsuit whose [[STC]] printout was discovered after the [[Age of Apostasy]]. After getting the "not [[heresy]]" stamp from the [[Adeptus Mechanicus]], the [[Imperium of Man]] began supplying [[space marine chapter]]s with them, who dubbed them "centurion" after the former officers of the [[Legiones Astartes]]. The centurion is a specialist piece of equipment used for sieges or line-breaking. Despite not interfacing with the space marines' [[Gene-seed|black carapace]], which has no in-game benefit anyway, it gives the marine durability (+T and +S) that is rivaled by that of a [[dreadnought]], without the requirement of losing their spine and three out of four limbs in a heroic but probably avoidable last stand. Instead of recruiting out of the chapter's First Company [[Veteran Squad|veterans]], centurion wearers are recruited from the [[assault squad|assault]] or [[devastator squad]]s, as centurions are only useful in specific roles of assault and heavy weapons, and their wearers need to be immersed in a specific type of warfare. This doesn't make much sense as an explanation though, since tactical marines already went through being devastators and then assault marines. Unfortunately, only the sergeant can be upgraded to a vet, which makes assault centurion cry, as that extra attack would be nice. Also, for some reason, the pilots fold their arms over their chest once inside the suit, controlling it with their thoughts. Why they don't simply use their arms is beyond me. (Ever seen how far its shoulders are away from the head, and how far apart; especially when looking at a model from the front? A space marine would probably need at least two extra joints in their additionally lengthened arms to be able to actually stick them in there and control it directly)

While you won't be blam'd for calling them [[Reasonable Marines|"reasonable dreadnoughts"]], it should be noted that their current status makes them inferior to true dreadnoughts DUE TO THE LACK OF HEROIC SACRIFICES.

They are also commonly referred to as "Space Marine inside a Space Marine (see above)" or "baby [[Dreadknight]]s" by fa/tg/uys. Sometimes "tubinators" by less fa/tg/uys or "Matryoshka Marines" by Russian wannabes. Actual Russians call them "[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolobok Kolobki]".

Those who hate how it looks compared to the [[derp|awesome to fail art]] can [[Counts As| kitbash]] [[Power armour#Cataphractii Pattern Terminator Armour|cataphractii]] and some weapon bits. Those who are lazy and have some money can use [[Graviton weapons]] Forge World bits to represent [[Grav-Cannon|Grav-Cannons]], [[Maxim Bolter]]s or [[Rotor Cannon]]s for [[Hurricane Bolter]]s and [[Cyclone Missile Launcher|Cyclones for Missile Launchers.]] Just buy a squad of Cataphractii, the special weapon sets, and the Iron Hands Forge Lord to represent the Sergeant and paint them the colors of your chosen chapter.

If you don't mind how they look you may as well kitbash from other models anyways. Seriously, as [[Games Workshop|selling a kidney]] or [[Fabius Bile|becoming a drug dealer]] is required to afford two centurion squads and the [[land raider]] or flier you want to put them in. Ass-cen kitbashing will require some extra cash and searching to represent the drills with meltaguns or flamers. However, you might happen to be a [[Imperial Fists|masochist]], as they are not as good as their shooty battle-brothers.

==Tabletop==
So how are they on the table? Well, it's complicated. You see the squads have a lot of power but come with drawbacks that you're not used to seeing in marine armies. Both squads are very durable with T5 W2 and 2+ saves, have a wide selection of mostly twin-linked weapons, and can move, and fire both in the same turn and still assault thanks to Slow and Purposeful.

Dev-Cens wreck armor with access to [[lascannons]], and [[Missile Launcher#Missile Launcher|missile launchers]], or pump out tons of bolt shots, or both if you mix and match, which is generally a terrible idea. They also can be equipped with [[Grav-Cannon|grav-cannons,]] '''which are the ultimate MEQ and TEQ killers.''' Ass-Cens, meanwhile, can wreck anything in assault, [[Anal Circumference|particularly asses]], with 2 S10 AP2 Armorbane (specialist weapons, not that that matters) [[Miscellaneous Weapons#Assault/Siege Drill|Siege Drill]] attacks, at initiative, along with twin-linked [[Flamer#Flamer|flamers,]] or [[Meltagun|meltas,]] with either [[Hurricane Bolter|hurricane bolters,]] or [[Ironclad Assault Launcher|ironclad assault launchers.]]

On the other hand, both squads are very expensive, clocking in at just under terminator cost before wargear. It costs a fortune to take a 5 man unit of either, the Dev-Cen especially, having to pay an extra 20 pts per if they're replacing their base heavy bolter. Now for the drawbacks. Slow and Purposeful keeps the squad from running, sweeping advancing, or overwatching, which with the exception of the restriction on sweeping advance are very foreign concepts to marine units.

In summary Centurions are marines cranked up to 11, but marines that don't fill any roles their army didn't already have covered by another, cheaper, unit. They have their uses but can be very situational. Dev-Cents are the ultimate TEQ deleters, if you get them close enough, and can also carve chunks out of strong-armored Monstrous Creatures. Ass-Cens, sadly, are useless. (Kidding aside, these guys were released coinciding with Stronghold Assault; they break buildings and do a pretty fine job of it. At-initiative S9 AP 2 and a 2+ also means the serge can hunt for all kinds of challenges. They're a specialized unit, but not a totally useless one.)

A certain build called the Grav-Star has four to six of them with [[Grav-Cannon]]s and [[Hurricane Bolter]]s paired with Tigurius rolling for Gates of Infinity and then whatever goodies he can get on other tables, then paired with whatever other HQs you feel like having (such as a beatstick build chaptermaster and/or some psykers for more buffs) that can then be further paired with a Tau buffmander. This can become very expensive (nearing 1000 points for a six cent build with all the bells and whistles!), but has the durability and firepower to devastate just about anything it meets while weathering the storm itself.

===Mathhammer Minute===
For the table below, assume bolters are at single-shot range. Graviton weapons are counted as dealing two glances on a 6 but no glances on a 5-down. This list doesn't count Imperial Fist Centurion devastators, who would get tank hunters which would be a pretty substantial boon for lascannon and missile launcher loadouts and basically make them Ersatz Railgun Broadsides (well before the 6th edition nerf) in terms of lethality to tanks.

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|+ Average Number of Glances and Penetrations Dealt
! rowspan = "2" | Name !! rowspan = "2" | Points !! colspan = "5" | AV
|-
! 10 !! 11 !! 12 !! 13 !! 14
|-
! 2 Centurions with TL Lascannon and Missile Launcher
|style="text-align:center;" | 160 || 2.89 || 2.37 || 1.85 || 1.33 || 0.81
|-
! 2 Centurions with Grav-Cannon/Amp and Hurricane Bolters
|style="text-align:center;" | 160 || 4.96 || 4.07 || 4.07 || 4.07 || 4.07
|-
! 4 Lascannon Devastators + Sergeant (Signum)
|style="text-align:center;" | 150 || 2.83 || 2.36 || 1.89 || 1.42 || 0.94
|-
! 4 Missile Devastators + Sergeant (Signum)
|style="text-align:center;" | 130 || 2.36 || 1.89 || 1.42 || 0.94 || 0.47
|-
! 4 Heavy Bolter Devastators + Sergeant (Signum)
|style="text-align:center;" | 110 || 2.83 || 1.42 || 0.00 || 0.00 || 0.00
|}

As you can see, the incredible rate of fire of grav-cannons (particularly wielded by a Relentless model), combined with, for their BS of 4, the superiority of Shred (multiplies wounding by 1.83) to Twin-Linked (multiplies accuracy by 1.33), combined with their ability to deal 2 hull points when they do get through, means they are consistently the best choice against any target. They are usually paired with hurricane bolters, as neither hurricane bolters nor missile launchers will help significantly against most hard targets but the hurricane bolters help much more against light infantry swarms.

For comparison, how they do against infantry (same range):

{| class="wikitable sortable" border=1
|+ Average Number of Wounds Dealt
! rowspan = "2" | Name !! rowspan = "2" | Points !! rowspan = "2" | Armor Save !! colspan = "10" | Toughness
|-
! 1 !! 2 !! 3 !! 4 !! 5 !! 6 !! 7 !! 8 !! 9 !! 10
|-
! rowspan = 6 | 2 Centurions with Grav-Cannon/Amp and Hurricane Bolters
| rowspan = 6 style="text-align:center;" | 160
|style="text-align:center;" | - || 6.48 || 6.48 || 5.59 || 4.70 || 3.81 || 2.93 || 2.93 || 2.04 || 2.04 || 2.04
|-
|style="text-align:center;" | 6 || 6.48 || 6.48 || 5.59 || 4.70 || 3.81 || 2.93 || 2.93 || 2.04 || 2.04 || 2.04
|-
|style="text-align:center;" | 5 || 8.15 || 8.15 || 7.26 || 6.37 || 5.48 || 4.59 || 4.59 || 3.70 || 3.70 || 3.70
|-
|style="text-align:center;" | 4 || 7.22 || 7.22 || 6.78 || 6.33 || 5.89 || 5.44 || 5.44 || 5.00 || 5.00 || 5.00
|-
|style="text-align:center;" | 3 || 7.41 || 7.41 || 7.11 || 6.81 || 6.52 || 6.22 || 6.22 || 5.93 || 5.93 || 5.93
|-
|style="text-align:center;" | 2 || 7.22 || 7.22 || 7.07 || 6.93 || 6.78 || 6.63 || 6.63 || 6.48 || 6.48 || 6.48
|}

[[File:Centurion Mathammer Wound.PNG|left]]
{{Clear}}

===8th Edition===
[[File:Centurian.jpg|300px|thumb|right|A Devastator Centurion, right after having the blood of alien infantry hosed off of it.]]
Centurions both have the same base statline: T5, W4, and Sv2+ means that they can take a beating before going down. However, they are hamstrung by their 4" movement, forcing them to waddle across the battlefield in an adorable but helpless way. Giving them a transport is useful, but they have to take either a [[Stormraven]] or a [[Land Raider]] because their big adorable butts can't fit in other vehicles. The Devastators won't really need a transport once they're in place, but the Assault Squad will really need one if it wants to do more than punch one tank into scrap and walk around for the rest of the game. Both units can also count as Combat Squads if they're 6 models large (good luck affording that) and thanks to their sergeant's Omniscope they ignore the bonuses enemies get from cover, which is especially nice for the Devastators. Centurions are also your premier multi-wound infantry unit this edition and benefit well from [[Apothecary]] support. (Even though with that armour a Techmarine would make as much sense)

Clocking in at 89 points each, Centurion Devastator Squads are costly but effective. But the problems start the moment you remember the prices are added separately. That's right, they cost like damn Razorbacks each! However, with two [[Heavy Bolter]]s and a Hurricane Bolter they can deliver 6 shots at 36", 12 at 24" and a whopping 18 at 12" ''each''. That means 18, 36 and 54 at those ranges for a 3-man squad. Dropping them in a nice and snug place where they can make entire units of infantry disappear in a single phase. Even if you have to move, because of their Decimator Protocols rule they don't get hit with the -1 penalty when firing heavy weapons on the move. And don't forget that you don't ''have'' to shoot all your guns in one go: you can roll them one after the other to make sure you don't waste your rolls or those of your primary guns. And even if you've armed them with something else than Heavy Bolters, you can still use the Hurricane Bolter to really discourage incoming infantry. They have three weapon options if the mother of all [[Bolter]] fire doesn't do it for you:

* '''Centurion [[Missile Launcher]]s''' can replace the Hurricane Bolter. The 25 points price tag is hefty, but having Assault D3 S8 AP-2 D3 missiles coming from each of the Centurions will dent all but the toughest tanks. They have a shorter range than their other anti-tank gun, so keep that in mind when positioning.
* '''[[Lascannon]]s''' can replace your Heavy Bolters. Note that you have to replace ''both'' of them, so no mix and match goodness on the same model (but you can within the same unit and still aim for different targets). While a 30 point bump per Centurion, having six Lascannons in one unit will really ruin a tank's or monster's day. Problem? It costs like a lazorback. While being three times more squishy, unless the enemy is using S2 AP- weapons.
* '''[[Grav-Cannon]]s with Grav-amps''' are a bit of an odd duck. Only a bit more expensive than the Heavy Bolters, you only get ''one'' of these per Centurion. Which is a good thing, because otherwise they'd be ungodly expensive. And even then, a dozen shots at S5 AP-3 1 damage that goes to D3 against anything with a 3+ save or higher, this can really ruin the day of heavy infantry. And with the limited range on this gun, they work together pretty well with the Hurricane Bolter (as long as you aim that at a different unit).

Centurion Assault Squads are 91 points and come with Siege Drills, two flamers and Centurion Assault Launchers. The drills deal a whopping S10 AP-4 3 damage hit each, so whatever they hit will feel it. The Centurion Assault Launchers let them do a Mortal Wound on whatever they charge on a 4+: useful, but not a game changer. They also come with two Flamers each, meaning 6 of them on the whole unit. And yes, that means you get to sling 6d6 Flamer hits if the enemy gets too close. You have two options to replace either of your weapons that's not the drills:

* '''[[Meltagun]]s''' can replace the Flamers. While this costs 18 points per model, you can now have 6 melta shots on a 3-man unit. Some simple mathhammer tells you that this is an average of 7 damage... when you're not within 6". Expensive, but it can turn tanks to slag like it's nobody's business.
* '''Hurricane Bolters''' can replace the Centurion Assault Launchers at 4 points a pop. Oh yes, the Assault Squads can have these too. They work especially well with Flamers, because if you can hit a target with your Flamers you can hit them with your Hurricane Bolters. Sure, a S4 AP0 hit doesn't do diddly, but '''45 of them''' (3x6 shots, double at half range, 2/3rds hit plus the average of 6d6) will ruin the day of ANY infantry that comes too close.

Devastator Squads are an expensive but useful tool to deliver a truly massive amount of firepower. While taking the anti-tank approach sounds fun, this will mean that your Centurions will cost 140 points ''each'', which will put a major dent in your budget. If you want a large number of [[Lascannon]]s, take a [[Predator]] instead. Two of them fully kitted with Lascannons are not only cheaper they are also tougher, have more Wounds and can move three times as fast. The Heavy Bolter approach is cheaper: two full Devastator Squads with three Heavy Bolters each have roughly the same firepower, but are some 40 points more expensive and a lot more fragile, if more easily transported.

Assault Squads are more of a mixed bag. 285 points for a full squad with Hurricane Bolters is quite the investment, but nothing can lay down a smackdown like such a unit can. Two units of Tactical Marines could try and match the same degree of firepower, but they're 33 or so points more expensive and are still two Flamers short, as well as lacking the sheer durability. The Meltagun approach can reliably pop tanks, but once popped they're kinda out of options. Because they can waddle at only 4" per turn they're easy pickings for anyone wishing them harm, and even when you bring a Stormraven (expensive) or a Land Raider (even more expensive) they're still sitting ducks for one turn. Attacking enemy units is an option if parked besides their transport, but with 7 attacks at WS 3+ means that you're going to have trouble with units that are more than 5 models large.

===Power Rating===
Centurions hit a bit of a snag with Power Ratings. Sure, you can pick all those expensive guns and upgrades for free... except that a 3-man Assault Squad clocks in at 15 Power. You can get ''three'' 5-man Tactical squads with only three Bolter shots short for that cost. Sure, they're more fragile but they're faster and can take just about any transport for a ride. And the Devastator squads cost ''17 per 3 Centurions''. For one point more you'll get 8 Lascannon shots on two sturdy Predator tanks. Sure, you'll trade your missiles in for those shots and durability, but two tanks can do more than one small squad. The Heavy Bolter route is better. A six-man squad of Centurion Devastators can have 12 Heavy Bolters and 36/72 Bolter shots for 34 points. thats a total of 108 shots at range of 12 take that for what you will. overwatch anyone?

So are they still useful? Yes, if you're willing and able to make the investment and can deal with all your firepower in one point. If not, it might be best to look at other options.

== Gallery ==

<gallery>
Image:CenturionSquad.jpg|Devastator Centurions
Image:CenturionMelee.jpg|Assault Centurions
Image:Marine_Knights.png|Daaaaaaawwwww.....
Image:Armour of Bulk.png|The Emperor's finest.
</gallery>

[[Category: Warhammer 40,000]]

[[Category: Imperial]]

[[Category: Space Marines]]

[[Category: Official Space Marine Chapters]]

{{Marines-Forces}}

Weeaboo

2021-12-07T03:22:31Z

2001:8003:1D0D:301:83:B080:83CF:C1CF: Undo revision 799787 by 209.222.163.186 (talk)

{{topquote|Ohayo /tg/-kun, you are looking kawaii today uguu~ (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧. Shall we play [[pretend]] on the futon after we eat our bento boxes desu? (>^3^)> Don't be Tsundere, you baka! It'll be sugoi!|Sample text of a typical weeaboo}}
'''Weeaboo''', commonly shortened to '''"weeb"''' in most conversations, is a noun/adjective commonly used as a pejorative for people whose main interests revolve around [[anime]] and/or [[manga]], in such a way that they are insufferable to everyone around them. The term has some controversy around it, as nobody can agree on where the threshold is for what counts as a weeaboo. However, it is still a commonly used term due to the prevalence of anime-related content on the internet and in media, including many domains that /tg/ is interested in.

It is worth nothing that though weeb was originally just a shortening of weeaboo, it has somewhat evolved into it's own term. At some point, people started to use the term weeb to ironically refer to themselves if they just liked Japan or Japanese things, even if not to an obsessive degree and it has now been used this way for so long that the term has acquired a new meaning separate from it's origin, effectively replacing the older term otaku as someone who likes Japan or Japanese things. The full term weeaboo still carries the original meaning however.

In a nutshell, a weeaboo is the anime-obsessed equivalent of [[That Guy]].

==Overview==
[[Image:PBF071-Weeaboo.gif|thumb|right|The original PBF comic.]][[Image:We're all weeaboo.jpg|thumb|right|Welcome to 4chan!]]
The name Weeaboo is derived from a ''[[Skub|Perry Bible Fellowship]]'' comic, reaching internet stardom after the term was used as a wordfilter for "wapanese" on [[/b/]]. Although used in the comic as a nonsense word, it has since become synonymous with "wapanese" (itself short for "wannabe Japanese") until it supplanted the original term altogether. The term typically refers to people who believe that Japanese stuff is better simply because it is Japanese, with implications of harboring an unhealthy obsession with the culture and media of Japan (such as [[anime]]) while simultaneously managing to know very little about it. The term has spun off to describe other types of obsessions, such as Teaboo (girls obsessed with stereotypical Proper British culture, specifically the new Sherlock show and [[Doctor Who|The Eleventh Doctor]]), Koreaboos (girls obsessed with K-Pop boy bands; considering the West hasn't really had actual boy bands since the 90s, it's not hard to see why), Wehraboos (people obsessed with the [[nazi|Third Reich]], particularly its military; though being a nazi is not a prerequisite for being a wehraboo, many of them still are) and Wolfaboo (kids obsessed with wolves, may or may not overlap with [[furry|furries]]).

They are also known to hate all other <s>Asian</s> cultures and think that Japan is the "Best <s>Asia</s> Country Ever!", despite not knowing that just seventy years ago (and before!), Japan itself was one of the most [[Imperium of Man|conservative, imperialistic, xenophobic, theocratic, fascist nations in the world]], hated or despised by almost everybody else, with the majority of the vote stemming from [[China]] and [[Asians|Korea]] (just open a history book you lazies). Modern Japan was given a rise in popularity due to American propaganda, as THE Capitalist Ally in the East, and the new Japanese generation, after being nuked to submission, putting on a new liberal democratic theme presenting themselves as sexually-liberal free-market libertarians with almost no similarity to their past conservative-fascist ancestors, to the point that they became the opposite. While conservative-Imperial Japan boasted a high population rise, modern anime Japan is almost sterile to the point of extinction. This isn't surprising, given their [[hive|issues with having space for everyone]] (fortunately, not as bad as it could be... yet). It helps that conservative-Imperial [[Japan]] arranged-married pretty much everyone. It was much quicker to get people making babies that way.

Aside from the association with a real-world nationality and culture, everything wrong with weeaboos (obsession to the point of breaking with reality, among other things) could just as easily be applied to [[bronies]], [[furries]], or [[That Guy|any fandom, really]]. Weeaboos simply get a lot of attention because it gets applied to a whole ''medium'' where many of the same tropes and stereotypes will cross-pollinate over many different franchises, thus making weebs very numerous and visible. Nobody really knows why weebs behave the way they do; some people blame anime itself, but more likely these people are just sad and lonely individuals who were badly socialized growing up, and likely didn't have enough sane friends to tell them when they were acting obnoxious and/or creepy.

==The Japanese side of the Coin==
In Japan, the Japanese have a similar concept they call the "Otaku"; there, an Otaku is basically a shut-in super-nerd who never leaves their room and obsesses over a typically nerdy hobby, and often leads to hoarding useless crap in their tiny apartment (in other words, a Japanese [[Neckbeard]]).

Weeaboos appropriated the term to simply mean "anyone who watches anime / reads manga", so be wary about applying the term across cultural boundaries. One key difference between otaku and weebs though is that otaku understand Japanese culture, and more importantly, social etiquette. With weebs, their only idea of Japanese society comes from anime/manga so they make the critical mistake of assuming that they're accurate depictions of Japanese social interactions, instead of being pure escapism.

People in real-life Japan emphasize being reserved and polite, with many, ''many'' unwritten rules of social interaction; this is very unlike the extroverted and loud characters you frequently see in anime. Visiting weebs who don't realize this quick may find themselves committing multiple social faux-pas without even realizing it.

Fun fact: Japanese people see no real distinction between eastern and western animation. If you ask someone what their favorite anime is, they're as likely to reply "Spongebob Squarepants" as "Naruto." Weeaboos, on the other hand, are extremely adamant that there is a massive fucking difference between Japanese anime and all other forms of animation, and that any non-Japanese animation that mimics anime isn't true anime (one such example is [[Avatar: The Last Airbender]]. Looks like anime, but made in America). It gets especially funny when you realize that reverse weeaboos exist; if you want some grade-A entertainment, go watch some Japanese people argue over dubs vs. subs on King of the Hill.

==On /tg/==
Because [[Moot]] originally intended for 4chan to revolve around the [[/a/]] board as a clone of Japan's 2channel imageboard, it's unsurprising that many 4chan users are heavily into anime. [[approved anime|Fa/tg/uys are no exception]], though many people will argue that it takes more than a love of anime to be a weeaboo. The key factor is the ''obsession'' and ''obnoxiousness'' that comes with being a weeaboo, which is what draws people's ire in the first place.

/tg/ has a tendency to use the word in a derogatory manner to describe anything <s>vaguely Asian in origin or inspiration</s> one does not like. This often incites the ire of fa/tg/uys who insist on the more precise definition of the term, resulting in [[rage]] all round.

Of course, the fact that /tg/ tends to name any female [[Original character, do not steal|original character]] [something]-chan <s>ironically</s> <s>unironically</s> who even knows anymore, and so many of the [[drawfags]] tend to have animesque art styles, means that fa/tg/uys are the most weeaboo people on the-- {{BLAM}}

In a weird way, one might say that weeaboo has made a full circle and has returned to its origins of being a word that means absolutely nothing, keeps getting repeated again and again, and leads to actions that are a complete waste of time.

'''tl;dr:''' [[DOOM: Repercussions of Evil|no fa/tg/uys, you are the weeaboos.]]

[[file:Weeaboo Heaven.gif|thumb|left|When a weeaboo enters /tg/]]

==What doesn't make you Weeaboo==
*A general interest in Japanese culture and history (this can knock a few points off the weeaboo counter if it goes for non surface level things that are the first things that people tend to absorb through pop culture, such as an interest in the social, economic, technological and cultural changes of the Edo period vs what kind of swords the samurai had).
*Watching anime and reading manga
*Eating Japanese cuisine
*Listing to Japanese Music
*Wanting to visit Japan
*Learning Japanese
*Liking cute shit
*A general preference for said things over western fare of a similar nature (liking manga more then superhero comics for example)
*Having a favorite character, specifically a "waifu" (though this can toe the line or worse depending on circumstances)
*Owning ''"normal"'' memorabilia of your favorite show (such as a T-shirt or poster or some action figures of robots)
*Calling yourself a Weeb ironically, self deprecatingly or purposely using it in the wrong context.

==What DOES make you a Weeaboo==
[[File:WeeabooDreamsShattered.png|thumb|250px|right|Weeaboo discovers the horrifying truth (From the manga ''Peepo Choo'', which tries to beat some sense into weebs)]]
'''Note''': This is a non-comprehensive list that includes all items that definitively make you a weeaboo; because the line between weeaboo and non-weeaboo is blurry, the traits shown here are deliberately on the [[That Guy|more extreme side]]. Someone who has traits that aren't quite as bad as the ones listed may still get called a weeaboo, but that's a [[skub|matter of debate]].

*Considering anime / manga as a superior art form just because it's from Japan
:* Galaxy Brain: complaining that early Japanese-made cartoons which still look more like the Western cartoons that inspired them (like [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htLKgRItMyA ''Danemon's Monster Hunt at Shojoji''] from 1935) aren't "real anime"
*Automatically thinking Japan and everything about it is superior to other countries for no conceivable reason, other than the fact that it's Japan. <s>It's just superior to AMURICA.</s>
*Complain that any Western work of fiction is ripping off anime using very weak evidence
*Getting [[rage|angry]] when someone doesn't watch your favorite show (borderline evidence; can be found in [[Neckbeard|non-weebs]] as well)
*Refusing to acknowledge flaws in Japanese stories or merits in Western stories because of their origin
:* Note: Having intense arguments about which anime is better can still enter weeb territory
*[[Inquisition|Judging people's character based on their taste in shows]], especially if you're calling people who don't share your taste fake anime fans
*Accusing people who are watching a show you don't like of destroying anime
*Vilifying dubs as a matter of principle, regardless of actual dub quality.
:*For extra stupid: complaining about "dubs" and asking for the "original Japanese sub" for shows that were ''[[derp|made in English]]''.
:*Next level stupid: Only watching western shows in Japanese dubs with English subtitles.
:*Ultimate level stupid: [https://twitter.com/FlamingFreezer?lang=en| Harassing English voice actors on Twitter] [[what|and comparing voice acting in any language other than Japanese to bestiality and pedophilia.]]
*Eating Japanese cuisine ''exclusively''.
:*Bonus points: thinking the Japanese eat nothing but traditional Japanese food, despite the fact they've been taking a liking to western food for centuries (Tempura was brought to Japan by the Portugese in the 16th century).
:*Getting angry at people who eat Asian Fusion instead of "real" Japanese food
:**Alternatively: Only eating Panda Express / Asian Fusion because you have no idea what Japanese food is besides sushi and ramen
*Wanting to visit Japan [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWiI6JVX5PE and then getting disappointed that it's not like anime]
*Expecting all Asian people to have watched anime and be as big a weeaboo as you
*Learning Japanese poorly by watching anime, then slipping in the handful of words you know into everyday conversation constantly, whether your peers understand you or not (see above sample text)
:*Shouting "Kimochi!" in public. The literal translation means feeling good, however the connotations are closer to "I'm cumming!", which is not something you use in a casual conversation. Bonus points for saying it in front of someone fluent in Japanese, who will either look at you funny and/or call the police out of [[Dark Eldar|fear of sexual harassment.]]
*Referring to everyone you know as -chan or -kun or -senpai at all times, despite you not being in Japan. (bonus points for using honorifics incorrectly or using them when describing yourself)
*Endlessly quoting shit from anime, whether it's appropriate or not
*"Glomping" (leaping at and aggressively hugging) people who at best only think of you as an acquaintance. This can be especially bad if you're significantly heavier than the intended target.
*Watching excessive amounts of [[/d/|hentai]] (look, we get it, for most people porn is porn. But there's a point where watching 30 cartoons a day about [[dickgirl]]s getting their [[anal circumference|asses rammed]] becomes a [[heresy|problem)]]
*Liking [[Lolicon]] or Shotacon (okay, maybe you're "just" a pedophile, but how the fuck is that better?)
*An obsession with Yaoi or Bishies, particularly stories with [[rape]] (most often applies to female weebs. The Japanese actually have a term for this: Fujoshi, which literally means "rotten girl.")
:*Taking your obsession into the real world by "shipping" real life dudes, whether they're gay or not (or you're just fucking creepy, in which case you're in the "Just as Bad" category as pedophiles).
:*Blackmailing creators into [http://www.newnownext.com/voltron-legendary-defender-blackmail-studio-mir-klance/05/2017/ making your gay fanfiction canon].
:*On rare occasion a Fujoshi may join your gaming group and become the female equivalent of [[That Guy]], usually by rolling up a flamboyantly gay character who sexually harasses the other male characters to an uncomfortable degree.
*Unironically rejecting all real-life women for cartoon women (aka "3D Pig-Disgusting")
:*Getting into arguments over how your [[waifu]] is superior and all other waifus are shit
:*Getting into arguments with artists over misrepresenting your waifu
:*Getting into arguments over whether or not having more than one waifu counts as infidelity
:*Getting angry at people drawing/fapping to porn of your waifu (as long as they are over 18)
:**(Getting mad at shitty artists for stinking up the search term with their poorly drawn art, particularly if the resulting art is objectively bad or doesn't actually resemble the character, and especially if the artist appears to be [[Internet Troll|just trolling]] is probably still on the non-weeaboo side of the line. Getting mad that most of the art caters to a fetish you don't share can also be on the non-weeaboo side of the line, depending on the character, fetish, and relation between the two, in question.)
*Running with your arms behind your back unironically or not as a joke. [[Stormfang|No, it's not more aerodynamic]]. [[Orks|No, it doesn't make you faster]]. [[Derp|It just makes you look like a tool.]]
*Most of your wardrobe and possessions are related to anime in some way, such as [[Games Workshop|mountains of useless and expensive figurines]] that are not [[Battletech|model kits]] (and before you say it, at least you can do something with [[Warhammer]] figurines besides look at them)
:*Owning expensive statuettes of your waifu
:*Owning expensive statuettes of your waifu that you legally can't show to minors
*Wearing cosplay outfits in public outside of conventions
:*Getting angry when a cosplayer isn't in character 100% of the time, or else is "doing it wrong"
:*Wearing cosplay when you are too fat to resemble the character's body type, especially if you insist that your cosplay is "perfect." Bonus points if [[Furry|you ''are'' the character now]], and everyone should treat you as such (though in all fairness there are plenty of Western media cosplayers who don't fit the body types either).
*''Unironically'' owning a [[wikipedia:Dakimakura|dakimakura]], because we all know what that's about.
**Going on dates with your dakimakura without a hint of irony
**Going on dates with your dakimakura in public that isn't part of a joke
*[[Katanas are Underpowered in d20|Believing Katanas are the best weapon ever and can cut through ANYTHING]] (and in the event that if they could do so if made from a hypothetical bullshitium alloy, that any other type of sword would not be able to do the same if made from the same metal)
*Going to the Holocaust Museum and taking a photo doing the Nazi salute because of Hetalia ([http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmwdem2a6P1qf7xf0.jpg yes, that actually happened])
*Shoving Hetalia characters into geography or talks about it during a class of international relations and expecting people to get your reference
*Trying to justify, calling people racist or using whataboutism during discussions of the Asian holocaust and any other of the fucked up stuff Japan did during WWII.
*Attacking movies as [[SJW]], then sabotaging review scores in favor of a live action adaptation of a manga or anime.
*Whining about [[/m/|Mecha]] being CGI only Sunrise even brothers with 2D mechs anymore after the airing of a certain shitfest by Trigger,
** This also happens when anime of other genres use 3D animation too. 2D waifu snobs ignore the fact that it takes less time for motion capture to record movements than an entire team of animators. After 2020, even mainstream animators like Toei (the studio behind Dragon Ball, PreCure, Pokemon, Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, etc.) uses it for their major franchises.
*Doxxing someone, or sending death threats to the animation studio/voice actors because they did something that you didn't like. I'm not fucking kidding, some Danganronpa fans doxxed this girl for not agreeing with two characters being shipped, causing her sexual abuser to find and molest her again. Also, Attack on Titan fans have been sending death threats to Studio Mappa and Gabi's voice character (fuck Gabi, but this doesn't justify sending death threats). Fucking pathetic.

===Things that don't necessarily make you a Weeaboo, but are commonly associated traits===
*[[Mortarion|Bad Hygiene]]
:*Body Odor
:*Bad Breath
:*[[Neckbeard|Ungroomed facial hair]]
:*Greasy hair or skin
*Overweight
*Ill-fitting / dirty clothes
*Basement-dwelling
*Extreme social awkwardness
*[[/tg/|Frequent tantrums]]
*No verbal filters or social boundaries
*No volume control
*Elitist attitudes
*Getting anal-retentive about adaptations and rejecting them by default in favor of the original material
**This said, some adaptations are absolutely terrible and should never have seen the light of day to begin with.
*Constantly telling inside jokes that aren't even that funny to begin with
*Wanting to exclusively date Asians (assuming you're not Asian yourself)
*[[Matt Ward|Terrible fanfiction]]/[[original character, do not steal|unoriginal character]]s with [[Tau|strong anime themes]]
*Inability to relate to people or serious discussions without constant references to fiction
*Delusional behavior (e.g. being unable to separate reality from their favorite work of fiction)
*[[Slaanesh|Violating people's personal space]] or [[Blood Ravens|personal property]]
*[[Khorne|Reacting violently to shit that doesn't actually matter]]
*Stalking behavior
*Outright sexual harassment in the most extreme cases
*Calling real world people such as yourself (perhaps ''especially'' yourself) as a "[[Dere|Tsundere, Bakadere, Coodere, Dododere, Yandere]] or [[Dere|Dandere]]". Partial exception is granted for people who are explicitly in metaphor mode or reaching for a good description (e.g., "The closest word I have to describe his attitude towards the show is full-on Tsundere; he loves it so much he hates it.")

==Litany On The Weeaboo==
Suffer not them to live<br />
their evil kind causes good men<br />
to have angry faces, emotions livid.<br />
Their kind is cringe<br />
bad to the core<br />
it makes the sane become unhinged.<br />

Thought for the day: Beware the furry, the weeb, the heretic.

==See Also==
*[[Anime]] & [[Manga]]
*[[Battle for Dominus Pillowus]]
*[[BESM]]
*[[Katanas are Underpowered in d20]]
*[[Maid RPG]]
*[[Mary Sue]]
*[[The Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic]]
*[[Tau]]
*[[Ribbon]]
*[[Rising Sons]]
*[[Tanto Cuore]]
*[[Waifu]]
*[[Mecha]]
==Links==
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBfWKmRFTjM| A compilation of weeaboos found in the wild.]
*[http://gunshowcomic.com/ac/part1/ The Gunshow] shows us the social dynamics of a typical anime club.
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape-kun Even penguins can be Weeaboo's, no one is safe now.]
You think we were kidding about the war crimes? [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre]]. [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Crimes]]. [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731]]
[[category:Weeaboo]]
[[Category:RAGE]]