2d4chan - User contributions [en]

Communism

2017-06-12T10:07:39Z

2001:8003:2A52:AA00:7952:982E:5B92:3775:

{{editwar}}
{{delete}}
{{NotFunny}}
[[Image:Communismleaders.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Contrary to western propaganda, this is how communism has always worked.]]
:''"Under [[capitalism]], man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."'' -Attributed to Yakov Smirnov

'''Short answer:''' Government gets to decide who gets what. Often touted as the supreme form of government by drunken poli sci majors.

'''Long answer:''' Communism is the economic and political system, and it works by screwing over the people and claiming it is in the benefit of the whole (the "[[Greater Good]]", so to speak) and the ownership of all industry by the workers. At least the bureaucracy has cool aesthetics when it shows up.

Throughout history there were various systems and methods based around the idea of not owning anything to various degrees (see also: Jesus Christ, the Paris Commune), but proper communism starts with Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, a 19th century proto-SJW NEET and a rich kid, turned socialist college student, turned businessman and hypocrite. These two developed their economic theory as a response to the effects of the Industrial Revolution, particularly since OSHA and its analogues and a minimum wage weren't a thing. He observed that while the mechanization of production was a good thing since it generated a lot of wealth, it was [[Butthurt|grossly unfair]] since said wealth was accumulating in the pockets of only a few [[Games Workshop|fucking rich pricks]] and most other people lived in Victorian poverty. He viewed society as being on a very clear cut path of social evolution with clearly defined phases and stages based around competition between various socioeconomic classes, and came to the conclusion that soon a [[Horus Heresy|revolution]] would end the division between social classes entirely as a single centralized state claimed ownership of all property and land for the good of its people. While his motivated reasoning made a few leaps in logic, and he never made a clear explanation of how this all would be achieved, he considered such a transition to be inevitable.

Another controversial aspect of communism, since it's a moral system, is that it tends to be anti-religious; this is why communists are described by their detractors as "godless" (especially Marx's version, as Marx himself was outspokenly anti-theistic atheist, even calling religion "an opiate of the masses, the heart of a heartless world..."). Communism has either caused or played a role in the violent persecution of religion and religious people, and the violent propagation of atheism, from the 20th century onward (as can be seen with Stalin's "League of Militant Atheists" in Soviet Russia). This is also seen to a lesser degree in China, where religion is allowed but tightly regulated...[[Blam|three guess what happens to religious locals who don't adhere]]. Though religious foreigners who don't are just deported; all religious leaders must swear absolute loyalty to the party before anyone or anything else and open evangelism is forbidden. This has resulted in the hilariously terrifying law that the Dalai Lama can't reincarnate without the party's permission - the practical side being that the party will get to choose their own successor for the position. On a somewhat lighter note, Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Terk, was an aggressive atheist who wrote the Federation as an idealized communist economy and made the Klingons and Romulans expies of communist nations. However, today this tends to either [[Skub|generate much debate]] or [[Squat|be swept under the rug]] by society for reasons including increasing secularization of Western society, vehement denials by Libertarians and anti-communist atheists like the late Christopher Hitchens ([[Retcon|who was a former communist himself; an ex-Trotskyist]], and [[Derp|called Communism a ''religion'' in an attempt to misappropriate the term religion and then use the example to smear actual religions by association]]), secular states such as Sweden being heavily Democratic (contrary to some views, Sweden isn't an atheist state; while Sweden is in fact the only Nordic country without a state church, they do not enforce state atheism, approximately 18% are Christian, 5% are Muslim, 45% are agnostic with the remainder being mixed of religious and non-religious) while the last Marxist state, North Korea, formally erased all references to Communism and worships Kim il-Sung as the [[God-Emperor of Mankind]] while at the same time doing things like [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/11/12/north-korea-publicly-executes-80-for-crimes-like-watching-films-owning-bible.html| killing people for having copies of the Bible].

To make a very long story that composes much of 20th century history short and would likely require a college-level economics course just to understand why events played out the way they did (which doesn't stop modern communists from claiming they understand), some of his ideas were good on paper, but which he forgot the old adage "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". In practice, having [[High Lords of Terra|so much power accumulated in the hands of just a few top-level ministers who weren't accountable to anybody]] didn't work out to the benefit of the people([[derp|who would have guessed]]). Despite aiming for a classless society, oftentimes the heads of the party simply became an unofficial aristocracy, leading to the Orwellian adage "All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others." And that's besides the very frequent and violent purges or political imprisonment. States that attempted to implement communist ideology either tended to devolve into dictatorships themselves (or degenerated worker's states according to Trostsky such as the USSR), got crushed by counter of revolutionaries [[Troll|if a dictatorship was not in place]] (Revolutionary Catalonia), or learned the hard way that collectively controlling an entire economy in every possible way without something going horribly wrong is impossible. A common feature of communist regimes have been famines and a lack of domestic goods due to poor planning and short-sighted top-down strategies. As a result, trying to get it to work made more variations of Communism than there are lasguns in the Imperium.

==Communism in Traditional Games==
In general there are three ways communism is used in fiction and board games:

1: '''''FILTHY GODLESS COMMIE-NAZIS''''': Dangerous, faceless enemies, ripped straight from the wettest dreams of the Cold War-era American John Birch society. These communists are the enemy; a vast, brutal, godless horde determined to take over the world that our heroes must resist. Nowadays, this attitude is usually played for comedy, as in ''[[Paranoia]]'' where Friend Computer's glitched-out personality has made it a paranoid wreck obsessed with a largely-imaginary adversary (while creating some actual communists in the process). By the way, if you want an example of literal CommuNazis, the East German Stasi are a good place to start, although the Nazi part is mostly aesthetic and the Communist ideology is what was dominant. No way would God Emperor Stalin let Nazism actually resurface.

2: '''Champions of the Proletariat''': The other side of the coin to what is listed above. These are either rebels against corrupt corporate overlords (frequently cyberpunk heroes) or a body of workers and soldiers fighting against fascist invaders (any game from the Russian perspective in WWII will count), and most [[That Guy|people]] who complain about [[Games Workshop|GeeDubs]] think they are being this. Occasionally this show up in Medieval settings as anachronistic peasant revolts or other politically-radical types out to pull down the social parts of [[Medieval Stasis]].

3: '''GLORIOUS COMMUNISTS''': Somewhere between the other two and generally played for laughs. Communist regimes are oppressive, but also able to do great things through sheer force of Industrial Might, Soviet Super Science, Stalinist Architecture and Will-Of-The-People and can be heroic just as easily as villainous. See Red Alert-II and III, and to a lesser extent a few parts of the [[Imperium of Man]]. This is as close to the glorious accuracy of communism as you can get, comrade.

Communism has also provided us with the Russian army, which is an awesome gaming resource and reference, in a drunken, drown your enemies with bodies and artillery sort of way in World War II or send in the hardened, manly Spetsnaz and tanks in the Cold War. It is a sacred law of [[/tg/]] alternate history [[/tg/'s homebrews|homebrew]] settings that there must be at least one communist faction and it must control at least 50% of the world's total landmass. Even [[Warmachine| Khador]] draws on the imagery of the Soviet armed forces, despite being more analogous to Tsarist/Imperialist Russia politically, aside from their Manifest Destiny "Why can't everyone else just roll over and let us conquer them?!" ideology that has... [[Nazi| other roots]].

Like all radical ideologies, communists are all over [[Shadowrun|the Sixth World]], mostly among the poor and disenfranchised who can't help looking up at the big fancy megacorp enclaves and wondering how ''that'' makes any kind of just sense. The Berlin Flux State was probably the biggest and most successful anarcho-communist enclave in-setting for a while, before it became such an embarrassment to the megacorps insisting they should be the only game in town that many of them (including the one run by the great dragon Lofwyr) had it dismantled somewhere around second or third edition.

People like to call the [[Tau]] communist. There's ''some'' truth to that, given they're a highly-collective society that generally values group achievement over personal accomplishment, but they're also a largely class-stratified society, with only the assurance that their leaders are theoretically cooperating for the [[Greater Good]] to keep them from being out-and-out feudalists with castes. Then again, that isn't too different from what many commie states became. There was also the [[Gretchin Revolutionary Committee]], a parody of the kinds of communist guerrillas of previous decades, who are armed grots out to demand equal treatment from their Ork masters with comical results. The Imperium, being a decentralized feudalistic empire, undoubtedly has many worlds that have communist governing bodies and economies, and maybe even a few where things worked out okay.

[[Pathfinder Roleplaying Game|Golarion]] has got a semi-hemi-demi communist nation in-setting: Galt, land of insane, constant revolution where the only winners are the ''final blades''. It represents the "messy revolutionary" kind of communism rather than any of the three flavors above, though there's some obvious mixing with the principals of the French Revolution that was its more-direct inspiration.

''[[Star Trek]]'' is complicated. On the one hand, the Federation has essentially a communist economy, but their advanced technology has created a post-scarcity economy, so it can be interpreted that the producers thought this would be a natural product of a society where everybody was self-sufficient. Conversely, their chief rivals, the Klingons and the Romulons, are transparent analogues of the USSR and Maoist China seen through the pre-détente eyes of an American lounge lizard. Similar post-scarcity communists are common in ''[[Eclipse Phase]]'', though with a much stronger anarchist bent. They are largely and uncomplicatedly perfect due to the game designers' raging stiffy for that kind of thing.

Any WWII or quasi-WWII game worth its salt will have a communist faction, including the classic ''[[Axis & Allies]]'' and the modern wargame ''[[Flames of War]]''. Additionally, many classic board games have attempted to tap into the forty-five year struggle for dominance between Amurica and the communists. The most famous and best is probably ''[[Twilight Struggle]]''. [[TSR]] also released an RPG set during the Cold War called ''[[Top Secret]]'', though, like most non-''D&D'' TSR products, no one under thirty-five has ever heard of it.

{{BLAM|This article has been marked as containing treasonous capitalist road sentiments. Please report to your local commissariat for re-education through labor.}}

==Gallery==
<center><gallery>
File:AK-47.jpg|Glorious Soviet Industries could be used to produce huge numbers of reliable and effective things which are still in high demand after a half a century...
File:Lada 1200.jpg|...Their cars are not on that list.
</gallery></center>

[[category:Not related]]

Communism

2017-06-12T10:07:14Z

2001:8003:2A52:AA00:7952:982E:5B92:3775:

{{editwar}}
{{delete}}
{{NotFunny}}
[[Image:Communismleaders.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Contrary to western propaganda, this is how communism has always worked.]]
:''"Under [[capitalism]], man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."'' -Attributed to Yakov Smirnov

'''Short answer:''' Government gets to decide who gets what. Often touted as the supreme form of government by drunken poli sci majors.

'''Long answer:''' Communism is the economic and political system, and it works by screwing over the people and claiming it is in the benefit of the whole (the "[[Greater Good]]", so to speak) and the ownership of all industry by the workers. At least the bureaucracy has cool aesthetics when it shows up.

Throughout history there were various systems and methods based around the idea of not owning anything to various degrees (see also: Jesus Christ, the Paris Commune), but proper communism starts with Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, a 19th century proto-SJW NEET and a rich kid, turned socialist college student, turned businessman and hypocrite. These two developed their economic theory as a response to the effects of the Industrial Revolution, particularly since OSHA and its analogues and a minimum wage weren't a thing. He observed that while the mechanization of production was a good thing since it generated a lot of wealth, it was [[Butthurt|grossly unfair]] since said wealth was accumulating in the pockets of only a few [[Games Workshop|fucking rich pricks]] and most other people lived in Victorian poverty. He viewed society as being on a very clear cut path of social evolution with clearly defined phases and stages based around competition between various socioeconomic classes, and came to the conclusion that soon a [[Horus Heresy|revolution]] would end the division between social classes entirely as a single centralized state claimed ownership of all property and land for the good of its people. While his motivated reasoning made a few leaps in logic, and he never made a clear explanation of how this all would be achieved, he considered such a transition to be inevitable.

Another controversial aspect of communism, since it's a moral system, is that it tends to be anti-religious; this is why communists are described by their detractors as "godless" (especially Marx's version, as Marx himself was outspokenly anti-theistic atheist, even calling religion "an opiate of the masses, the heart of a heartless world..."). Communism has either caused or played a role in the violent persecution of religion and religious people, and the violent propagation of atheism, from the 20th century onward (as can be seen with Stalin's "League of Militant Atheists" in Soviet Russia). This is also seen to a lesser degree in China, where religion is allowed but tightly regulated...[[Blam|three guess what happens to religious locals who don't adhere]]. Though religious foreigners who don't are just deported; all religious leaders must swear absolute loyalty to the party before anyone or anything else and open evangelism is forbidden. This has resulted in the hilariously terrifying law that the Dalai Lama can't reincarnate without the party's permission - the practical side being that the party will get to choose their own successor for the position. On a somewhat lighter note, Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Terk, was an aggressive atheist who wrote the Federation as an idealized communist economy and made the Klingons and Romulans expies of communist nations. However, today this tends to either [[Skub|generate much debate]] or [[Squat|be swept under the rug]] by society for reasons including increasing secularization of Western society, vehement denials by Libertarians and anti-communist atheists like the late Christopher Hitchens ([[Retcon|who was a former communist himself; an ex-Trotskyist]], and [[Derp|called Communism a ''religion'' in an attempt to misappropriate the term religion and then use the example to shift blame and smear actual religions by association]]), secular states such as Sweden being heavily Democratic (contrary to some views, Sweden isn't an atheist state; while Sweden is in fact the only Nordic country without a state church, they do not enforce state atheism, approximately 18% are Christian, 5% are Muslim, 45% are agnostic with the remainder being mixed of religious and non-religious) while the last Marxist state, North Korea, formally erased all references to Communism and worships Kim il-Sung as the [[God-Emperor of Mankind]] while at the same time doing things like [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/11/12/north-korea-publicly-executes-80-for-crimes-like-watching-films-owning-bible.html| killing people for having copies of the Bible].

To make a very long story that composes much of 20th century history short and would likely require a college-level economics course just to understand why events played out the way they did (which doesn't stop modern communists from claiming they understand), some of his ideas were good on paper, but which he forgot the old adage "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". In practice, having [[High Lords of Terra|so much power accumulated in the hands of just a few top-level ministers who weren't accountable to anybody]] didn't work out to the benefit of the people([[derp|who would have guessed]]). Despite aiming for a classless society, oftentimes the heads of the party simply became an unofficial aristocracy, leading to the Orwellian adage "All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others." And that's besides the very frequent and violent purges or political imprisonment. States that attempted to implement communist ideology either tended to devolve into dictatorships themselves (or degenerated worker's states according to Trostsky such as the USSR), got crushed by counter of revolutionaries [[Troll|if a dictatorship was not in place]] (Revolutionary Catalonia), or learned the hard way that collectively controlling an entire economy in every possible way without something going horribly wrong is impossible. A common feature of communist regimes have been famines and a lack of domestic goods due to poor planning and short-sighted top-down strategies. As a result, trying to get it to work made more variations of Communism than there are lasguns in the Imperium.

==Communism in Traditional Games==
In general there are three ways communism is used in fiction and board games:

1: '''''FILTHY GODLESS COMMIE-NAZIS''''': Dangerous, faceless enemies, ripped straight from the wettest dreams of the Cold War-era American John Birch society. These communists are the enemy; a vast, brutal, godless horde determined to take over the world that our heroes must resist. Nowadays, this attitude is usually played for comedy, as in ''[[Paranoia]]'' where Friend Computer's glitched-out personality has made it a paranoid wreck obsessed with a largely-imaginary adversary (while creating some actual communists in the process). By the way, if you want an example of literal CommuNazis, the East German Stasi are a good place to start, although the Nazi part is mostly aesthetic and the Communist ideology is what was dominant. No way would God Emperor Stalin let Nazism actually resurface.

2: '''Champions of the Proletariat''': The other side of the coin to what is listed above. These are either rebels against corrupt corporate overlords (frequently cyberpunk heroes) or a body of workers and soldiers fighting against fascist invaders (any game from the Russian perspective in WWII will count), and most [[That Guy|people]] who complain about [[Games Workshop|GeeDubs]] think they are being this. Occasionally this show up in Medieval settings as anachronistic peasant revolts or other politically-radical types out to pull down the social parts of [[Medieval Stasis]].

3: '''GLORIOUS COMMUNISTS''': Somewhere between the other two and generally played for laughs. Communist regimes are oppressive, but also able to do great things through sheer force of Industrial Might, Soviet Super Science, Stalinist Architecture and Will-Of-The-People and can be heroic just as easily as villainous. See Red Alert-II and III, and to a lesser extent a few parts of the [[Imperium of Man]]. This is as close to the glorious accuracy of communism as you can get, comrade.

Communism has also provided us with the Russian army, which is an awesome gaming resource and reference, in a drunken, drown your enemies with bodies and artillery sort of way in World War II or send in the hardened, manly Spetsnaz and tanks in the Cold War. It is a sacred law of [[/tg/]] alternate history [[/tg/'s homebrews|homebrew]] settings that there must be at least one communist faction and it must control at least 50% of the world's total landmass. Even [[Warmachine| Khador]] draws on the imagery of the Soviet armed forces, despite being more analogous to Tsarist/Imperialist Russia politically, aside from their Manifest Destiny "Why can't everyone else just roll over and let us conquer them?!" ideology that has... [[Nazi| other roots]].

Like all radical ideologies, communists are all over [[Shadowrun|the Sixth World]], mostly among the poor and disenfranchised who can't help looking up at the big fancy megacorp enclaves and wondering how ''that'' makes any kind of just sense. The Berlin Flux State was probably the biggest and most successful anarcho-communist enclave in-setting for a while, before it became such an embarrassment to the megacorps insisting they should be the only game in town that many of them (including the one run by the great dragon Lofwyr) had it dismantled somewhere around second or third edition.

People like to call the [[Tau]] communist. There's ''some'' truth to that, given they're a highly-collective society that generally values group achievement over personal accomplishment, but they're also a largely class-stratified society, with only the assurance that their leaders are theoretically cooperating for the [[Greater Good]] to keep them from being out-and-out feudalists with castes. Then again, that isn't too different from what many commie states became. There was also the [[Gretchin Revolutionary Committee]], a parody of the kinds of communist guerrillas of previous decades, who are armed grots out to demand equal treatment from their Ork masters with comical results. The Imperium, being a decentralized feudalistic empire, undoubtedly has many worlds that have communist governing bodies and economies, and maybe even a few where things worked out okay.

[[Pathfinder Roleplaying Game|Golarion]] has got a semi-hemi-demi communist nation in-setting: Galt, land of insane, constant revolution where the only winners are the ''final blades''. It represents the "messy revolutionary" kind of communism rather than any of the three flavors above, though there's some obvious mixing with the principals of the French Revolution that was its more-direct inspiration.

''[[Star Trek]]'' is complicated. On the one hand, the Federation has essentially a communist economy, but their advanced technology has created a post-scarcity economy, so it can be interpreted that the producers thought this would be a natural product of a society where everybody was self-sufficient. Conversely, their chief rivals, the Klingons and the Romulons, are transparent analogues of the USSR and Maoist China seen through the pre-détente eyes of an American lounge lizard. Similar post-scarcity communists are common in ''[[Eclipse Phase]]'', though with a much stronger anarchist bent. They are largely and uncomplicatedly perfect due to the game designers' raging stiffy for that kind of thing.

Any WWII or quasi-WWII game worth its salt will have a communist faction, including the classic ''[[Axis & Allies]]'' and the modern wargame ''[[Flames of War]]''. Additionally, many classic board games have attempted to tap into the forty-five year struggle for dominance between Amurica and the communists. The most famous and best is probably ''[[Twilight Struggle]]''. [[TSR]] also released an RPG set during the Cold War called ''[[Top Secret]]'', though, like most non-''D&D'' TSR products, no one under thirty-five has ever heard of it.

{{BLAM|This article has been marked as containing treasonous capitalist road sentiments. Please report to your local commissariat for re-education through labor.}}

==Gallery==
<center><gallery>
File:AK-47.jpg|Glorious Soviet Industries could be used to produce huge numbers of reliable and effective things which are still in high demand after a half a century...
File:Lada 1200.jpg|...Their cars are not on that list.
</gallery></center>

[[category:Not related]]

Communism

2017-06-12T09:58:51Z

2001:8003:2A52:AA00:7952:982E:5B92:3775:

{{editwar}}
{{delete}}
{{NotFunny}}
[[Image:Communismleaders.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Contrary to western propaganda, this is how communism has always worked.]]
:''"Under [[capitalism]], man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."'' -Attributed to Yakov Smirnov

'''Short answer:''' Government gets to decide who gets what. Often touted as the supreme form of government by drunken poli sci majors.

'''Long answer:''' Communism is the economic and political system, and it works by screwing over the people and claiming it is in the benefit of the whole (the "[[Greater Good]]", so to speak) and the ownership of all industry by the workers. At least the bureaucracy has cool aesthetics when it shows up.

Throughout history there were various systems and methods based around the idea of not owning anything to various degrees (see also: Jesus Christ, the Paris Commune), but proper communism starts with Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, a 19th century proto-SJW NEET and a rich kid, turned socialist college student, turned businessman and hypocrite. These two developed their economic theory as a response to the effects of the Industrial Revolution, particularly since OSHA and its analogues and a minimum wage weren't a thing. He observed that while the mechanization of production was a good thing since it generated a lot of wealth, it was [[Butthurt|grossly unfair]] since said wealth was accumulating in the pockets of only a few [[Games Workshop|fucking rich pricks]] and most other people lived in Victorian poverty. He viewed society as being on a very clear cut path of social evolution with clearly defined phases and stages based around competition between various socioeconomic classes, and came to the conclusion that soon a [[Horus Heresy|revolution]] would end the division between social classes entirely as a single centralized state claimed ownership of all property and land for the good of its people. While his motivated reasoning made a few leaps in logic, and he never made a clear explanation of how this all would be achieved, he considered such a transition to be inevitable.

Another controversial aspect of communism, since it's a moral system, is that it tends to be anti-religious; this is why communists are described by their detractors as "godless" (especially Marx's version, as Marx himself was outspokenly anti-theistic atheist, even calling religion "an opiate of the masses, the heart of a heartless world..."). Communism has either caused or played a role in the violent persecution of religion and religious people, and the violent propagation of atheism, from the 20th century onward (as can be seen with Stalin's "League of Militant Atheists" in Soviet Russia). This is also seen to a lesser degree in China, where religion is allowed but tightly regulated...[[Blam|three guess what happens to religious locals who don't adhere]]. Though religious foreigners who don't are just deported; all religious leaders must swear absolute loyalty to the party before anyone or anything else and open evangelism is forbidden. This has resulted in the hilariously terrifying law that the Dalai Lama can't reincarnate without the party's permission - the practical side being that the party will get to choose their own successor for the position. On a somewhat lighter note, Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Terk, was an aggressive atheist who wrote the Federation as an idealized communist economy and made the Klingons and Romulans expies of communist nations. However, today this tends to either [[Skub|generate much debate]] or [[Squat|be swept under the rug]] by society for reasons including increasing secularization of Western society, vehement denials by Libertarians and anti-communist atheists like the late Christopher Hitchens ([[Retcon|who was a former communist himself; an ex-Trotskyist]], and [[Derp|called Communism a ''religion'']]), secular states such as Sweden being heavily Democratic (contrary to some views, Sweden isn't an atheist state; while Sweden is in fact the only Nordic country without a state church, they do not enforce state atheism, approximately 18% are Christian, 5% are Muslim, 45% are agnostic with the remainder being mixed of religious and non-religious) while the last Marxist state, North Korea, formally erased all references to Communism and worships Kim il-Sung as the [[God-Emperor of Mankind]] while at the same time doing things like [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/11/12/north-korea-publicly-executes-80-for-crimes-like-watching-films-owning-bible.html| killing people for having copies of the Bible].

To make a very long story that composes much of 20th century history short and would likely require a college-level economics course just to understand why events played out the way they did (which doesn't stop modern communists from claiming they understand), some of his ideas were good on paper, but which he forgot the old adage "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". In practice, having [[High Lords of Terra|so much power accumulated in the hands of just a few top-level ministers who weren't accountable to anybody]] didn't work out to the benefit of the people([[derp|who would have guessed]]). Despite aiming for a classless society, oftentimes the heads of the party simply became an unofficial aristocracy, leading to the Orwellian adage "All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others." And that's besides the very frequent and violent purges or political imprisonment. States that attempted to implement communist ideology either tended to devolve into dictatorships themselves (or degenerated worker's states according to Trostsky such as the USSR), got crushed by counter of revolutionaries [[Troll|if a dictatorship was not in place]] (Revolutionary Catalonia), or learned the hard way that collectively controlling an entire economy in every possible way without something going horribly wrong is impossible. A common feature of communist regimes have been famines and a lack of domestic goods due to poor planning and short-sighted top-down strategies. As a result, trying to get it to work made more variations of Communism than there are lasguns in the Imperium.

==Communism in Traditional Games==
In general there are three ways communism is used in fiction and board games:

1: '''''FILTHY GODLESS COMMIE-NAZIS''''': Dangerous, faceless enemies, ripped straight from the wettest dreams of the Cold War-era American John Birch society. These communists are the enemy; a vast, brutal, godless horde determined to take over the world that our heroes must resist. Nowadays, this attitude is usually played for comedy, as in ''[[Paranoia]]'' where Friend Computer's glitched-out personality has made it a paranoid wreck obsessed with a largely-imaginary adversary (while creating some actual communists in the process). By the way, if you want an example of literal CommuNazis, the East German Stasi are a good place to start, although the Nazi part is mostly aesthetic and the Communist ideology is what was dominant. No way would God Emperor Stalin let Nazism actually resurface.

2: '''Champions of the Proletariat''': The other side of the coin to what is listed above. These are either rebels against corrupt corporate overlords (frequently cyberpunk heroes) or a body of workers and soldiers fighting against fascist invaders (any game from the Russian perspective in WWII will count), and most [[That Guy|people]] who complain about [[Games Workshop|GeeDubs]] think they are being this. Occasionally this show up in Medieval settings as anachronistic peasant revolts or other politically-radical types out to pull down the social parts of [[Medieval Stasis]].

3: '''GLORIOUS COMMUNISTS''': Somewhere between the other two and generally played for laughs. Communist regimes are oppressive, but also able to do great things through sheer force of Industrial Might, Soviet Super Science, Stalinist Architecture and Will-Of-The-People and can be heroic just as easily as villainous. See Red Alert-II and III, and to a lesser extent a few parts of the [[Imperium of Man]]. This is as close to the glorious accuracy of communism as you can get, comrade.

Communism has also provided us with the Russian army, which is an awesome gaming resource and reference, in a drunken, drown your enemies with bodies and artillery sort of way in World War II or send in the hardened, manly Spetsnaz and tanks in the Cold War. It is a sacred law of [[/tg/]] alternate history [[/tg/'s homebrews|homebrew]] settings that there must be at least one communist faction and it must control at least 50% of the world's total landmass. Even [[Warmachine| Khador]] draws on the imagery of the Soviet armed forces, despite being more analogous to Tsarist/Imperialist Russia politically, aside from their Manifest Destiny "Why can't everyone else just roll over and let us conquer them?!" ideology that has... [[Nazi| other roots]].

Like all radical ideologies, communists are all over [[Shadowrun|the Sixth World]], mostly among the poor and disenfranchised who can't help looking up at the big fancy megacorp enclaves and wondering how ''that'' makes any kind of just sense. The Berlin Flux State was probably the biggest and most successful anarcho-communist enclave in-setting for a while, before it became such an embarrassment to the megacorps insisting they should be the only game in town that many of them (including the one run by the great dragon Lofwyr) had it dismantled somewhere around second or third edition.

People like to call the [[Tau]] communist. There's ''some'' truth to that, given they're a highly-collective society that generally values group achievement over personal accomplishment, but they're also a largely class-stratified society, with only the assurance that their leaders are theoretically cooperating for the [[Greater Good]] to keep them from being out-and-out feudalists with castes. Then again, that isn't too different from what many commie states became. There was also the [[Gretchin Revolutionary Committee]], a parody of the kinds of communist guerrillas of previous decades, who are armed grots out to demand equal treatment from their Ork masters with comical results. The Imperium, being a decentralized feudalistic empire, undoubtedly has many worlds that have communist governing bodies and economies, and maybe even a few where things worked out okay.

[[Pathfinder Roleplaying Game|Golarion]] has got a semi-hemi-demi communist nation in-setting: Galt, land of insane, constant revolution where the only winners are the ''final blades''. It represents the "messy revolutionary" kind of communism rather than any of the three flavors above, though there's some obvious mixing with the principals of the French Revolution that was its more-direct inspiration.

''[[Star Trek]]'' is complicated. On the one hand, the Federation has essentially a communist economy, but their advanced technology has created a post-scarcity economy, so it can be interpreted that the producers thought this would be a natural product of a society where everybody was self-sufficient. Conversely, their chief rivals, the Klingons and the Romulons, are transparent analogues of the USSR and Maoist China seen through the pre-détente eyes of an American lounge lizard. Similar post-scarcity communists are common in ''[[Eclipse Phase]]'', though with a much stronger anarchist bent. They are largely and uncomplicatedly perfect due to the game designers' raging stiffy for that kind of thing.

Any WWII or quasi-WWII game worth its salt will have a communist faction, including the classic ''[[Axis & Allies]]'' and the modern wargame ''[[Flames of War]]''. Additionally, many classic board games have attempted to tap into the forty-five year struggle for dominance between Amurica and the communists. The most famous and best is probably ''[[Twilight Struggle]]''. [[TSR]] also released an RPG set during the Cold War called ''[[Top Secret]]'', though, like most non-''D&D'' TSR products, no one under thirty-five has ever heard of it.

{{BLAM|This article has been marked as containing treasonous capitalist road sentiments. Please report to your local commissariat for re-education through labor.}}

==Gallery==
<center><gallery>
File:AK-47.jpg|Glorious Soviet Industries could be used to produce huge numbers of reliable and effective things which are still in high demand after a half a century...
File:Lada 1200.jpg|...Their cars are not on that list.
</gallery></center>

[[category:Not related]]

Communism

2017-06-12T09:57:47Z

2001:8003:2A52:AA00:7952:982E:5B92:3775: adding new facts and statistics

{{editwar}}
{{delete}}
{{NotFunny}}
[[Image:Communismleaders.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Contrary to western propaganda, this is how communism has always worked.]]
:''"Under [[capitalism]], man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."'' -Attributed to Yakov Smirnov

'''Short answer:''' Government gets to decide who gets what. Often touted as the supreme form of government by drunken poli sci majors.

'''Long answer:''' Communism is the economic and political system, and it works by screwing over the people and claiming it is in the benefit of the whole (the "[[Greater Good]]", so to speak) and the ownership of all industry by the workers. At least the bureaucracy has cool aesthetics when it shows up.

Throughout history there were various systems and methods based around the idea of not owning anything to various degrees (see also: Jesus Christ, the Paris Commune), but proper communism starts with Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, a 19th century proto-SJW NEET and a rich kid, turned socialist college student, turned businessman and hypocrite. These two developed their economic theory as a response to the effects of the Industrial Revolution, particularly since OSHA and its analogues and a minimum wage weren't a thing. He observed that while the mechanization of production was a good thing since it generated a lot of wealth, it was [[Butthurt|grossly unfair]] since said wealth was accumulating in the pockets of only a few [[Games Workshop|fucking rich pricks]] and most other people lived in Victorian poverty. He viewed society as being on a very clear cut path of social evolution with clearly defined phases and stages based around competition between various socioeconomic classes, and came to the conclusion that soon a [[Horus Heresy|revolution]] would end the division between social classes entirely as a single centralized state claimed ownership of all property and land for the good of its people. While his motivated reasoning made a few leaps in logic, and he never made a clear explanation of how this all would be achieved, he considered such a transition to be inevitable.

Another controversial aspect of communism, since it's a moral system, is that it tends to be anti-religious; this is why communists are described by their detractors as "godless" (especially Marx's version, as Marx himself was outspokenly anti-theistic atheist, even calling religion "an opiate of the masses, the heart of a heartless world..."). Communism has either caused or played a role in the violent persecution of religion and religious people, and the violent propagation of atheism, from the 20th century onward (as can be seen with Stalin's "League of Militant Atheists" in Soviet Russia). This is also seen to a lesser degree in China, where religion is allowed but tightly regulated...[[Blam|three guess what happens to religious locals who don't adhere]]. Though religious foreigners who don't are just deported; all religious leaders must swear absolute loyalty to the party before anyone or anything else and open evangelism is forbidden. This has resulted in the hilariously terrifying law that the Dalai Lama can't reincarnate without the party's permission - the practical side being that the party will get to choose their own successor for the position. On a somewhat lighter note, Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Terk, was an aggressive atheist who wrote the Federation as an idealized communist economy and made the Klingons and Romulans expies of communist nations. However, today this tends to either [[Skub|generate much debate]] or [[Squat|be swept under the rug]] by society for reasons including increasing secularization of Western society, vehement denials by Libertarians and anti-communist atheists like the late Christopher Hitchens ([[Retcon|who was a former communist himself; an ex-Trotskyist]], and [[Derp|called Communism a ''religion'']]), secular states such as Sweden being heavily Democratic (contrary to some views, Sweden isn't an atheist state; while Sweden is in fact the only Nordic country without a state church, they do not enforce state atheism, approximately 18% are Christian, 5% are Muslim, 45% are agnostic with the remainder being mixed of religious and non-religious) while the last Marxist state, North Korea, formally erased all references to Communism and worships Kim il-Sung as the [[God-Emperor of Mankind]] while at the same time doing things like [[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/11/12/north-korea-publicly-executes-80-for-crimes-like-watching-films-owning-bible.html|killing people for having copies of the Bible]].

To make a very long story that composes much of 20th century history short and would likely require a college-level economics course just to understand why events played out the way they did (which doesn't stop modern communists from claiming they understand), some of his ideas were good on paper, but which he forgot the old adage "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". In practice, having [[High Lords of Terra|so much power accumulated in the hands of just a few top-level ministers who weren't accountable to anybody]] didn't work out to the benefit of the people([[derp|who would have guessed]]). Despite aiming for a classless society, oftentimes the heads of the party simply became an unofficial aristocracy, leading to the Orwellian adage "All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others." And that's besides the very frequent and violent purges or political imprisonment. States that attempted to implement communist ideology either tended to devolve into dictatorships themselves (or degenerated worker's states according to Trostsky such as the USSR), got crushed by counter of revolutionaries [[Troll|if a dictatorship was not in place]] (Revolutionary Catalonia), or learned the hard way that collectively controlling an entire economy in every possible way without something going horribly wrong is impossible. A common feature of communist regimes have been famines and a lack of domestic goods due to poor planning and short-sighted top-down strategies. As a result, trying to get it to work made more variations of Communism than there are lasguns in the Imperium.

==Communism in Traditional Games==
In general there are three ways communism is used in fiction and board games:

1: '''''FILTHY GODLESS COMMIE-NAZIS''''': Dangerous, faceless enemies, ripped straight from the wettest dreams of the Cold War-era American John Birch society. These communists are the enemy; a vast, brutal, godless horde determined to take over the world that our heroes must resist. Nowadays, this attitude is usually played for comedy, as in ''[[Paranoia]]'' where Friend Computer's glitched-out personality has made it a paranoid wreck obsessed with a largely-imaginary adversary (while creating some actual communists in the process). By the way, if you want an example of literal CommuNazis, the East German Stasi are a good place to start, although the Nazi part is mostly aesthetic and the Communist ideology is what was dominant. No way would God Emperor Stalin let Nazism actually resurface.

2: '''Champions of the Proletariat''': The other side of the coin to what is listed above. These are either rebels against corrupt corporate overlords (frequently cyberpunk heroes) or a body of workers and soldiers fighting against fascist invaders (any game from the Russian perspective in WWII will count), and most [[That Guy|people]] who complain about [[Games Workshop|GeeDubs]] think they are being this. Occasionally this show up in Medieval settings as anachronistic peasant revolts or other politically-radical types out to pull down the social parts of [[Medieval Stasis]].

3: '''GLORIOUS COMMUNISTS''': Somewhere between the other two and generally played for laughs. Communist regimes are oppressive, but also able to do great things through sheer force of Industrial Might, Soviet Super Science, Stalinist Architecture and Will-Of-The-People and can be heroic just as easily as villainous. See Red Alert-II and III, and to a lesser extent a few parts of the [[Imperium of Man]]. This is as close to the glorious accuracy of communism as you can get, comrade.

Communism has also provided us with the Russian army, which is an awesome gaming resource and reference, in a drunken, drown your enemies with bodies and artillery sort of way in World War II or send in the hardened, manly Spetsnaz and tanks in the Cold War. It is a sacred law of [[/tg/]] alternate history [[/tg/'s homebrews|homebrew]] settings that there must be at least one communist faction and it must control at least 50% of the world's total landmass. Even [[Warmachine| Khador]] draws on the imagery of the Soviet armed forces, despite being more analogous to Tsarist/Imperialist Russia politically, aside from their Manifest Destiny "Why can't everyone else just roll over and let us conquer them?!" ideology that has... [[Nazi| other roots]].

Like all radical ideologies, communists are all over [[Shadowrun|the Sixth World]], mostly among the poor and disenfranchised who can't help looking up at the big fancy megacorp enclaves and wondering how ''that'' makes any kind of just sense. The Berlin Flux State was probably the biggest and most successful anarcho-communist enclave in-setting for a while, before it became such an embarrassment to the megacorps insisting they should be the only game in town that many of them (including the one run by the great dragon Lofwyr) had it dismantled somewhere around second or third edition.

People like to call the [[Tau]] communist. There's ''some'' truth to that, given they're a highly-collective society that generally values group achievement over personal accomplishment, but they're also a largely class-stratified society, with only the assurance that their leaders are theoretically cooperating for the [[Greater Good]] to keep them from being out-and-out feudalists with castes. Then again, that isn't too different from what many commie states became. There was also the [[Gretchin Revolutionary Committee]], a parody of the kinds of communist guerrillas of previous decades, who are armed grots out to demand equal treatment from their Ork masters with comical results. The Imperium, being a decentralized feudalistic empire, undoubtedly has many worlds that have communist governing bodies and economies, and maybe even a few where things worked out okay.

[[Pathfinder Roleplaying Game|Golarion]] has got a semi-hemi-demi communist nation in-setting: Galt, land of insane, constant revolution where the only winners are the ''final blades''. It represents the "messy revolutionary" kind of communism rather than any of the three flavors above, though there's some obvious mixing with the principals of the French Revolution that was its more-direct inspiration.

''[[Star Trek]]'' is complicated. On the one hand, the Federation has essentially a communist economy, but their advanced technology has created a post-scarcity economy, so it can be interpreted that the producers thought this would be a natural product of a society where everybody was self-sufficient. Conversely, their chief rivals, the Klingons and the Romulons, are transparent analogues of the USSR and Maoist China seen through the pre-détente eyes of an American lounge lizard. Similar post-scarcity communists are common in ''[[Eclipse Phase]]'', though with a much stronger anarchist bent. They are largely and uncomplicatedly perfect due to the game designers' raging stiffy for that kind of thing.

Any WWII or quasi-WWII game worth its salt will have a communist faction, including the classic ''[[Axis & Allies]]'' and the modern wargame ''[[Flames of War]]''. Additionally, many classic board games have attempted to tap into the forty-five year struggle for dominance between Amurica and the communists. The most famous and best is probably ''[[Twilight Struggle]]''. [[TSR]] also released an RPG set during the Cold War called ''[[Top Secret]]'', though, like most non-''D&D'' TSR products, no one under thirty-five has ever heard of it.

{{BLAM|This article has been marked as containing treasonous capitalist road sentiments. Please report to your local commissariat for re-education through labor.}}

==Gallery==
<center><gallery>
File:AK-47.jpg|Glorious Soviet Industries could be used to produce huge numbers of reliable and effective things which are still in high demand after a half a century...
File:Lada 1200.jpg|...Their cars are not on that list.
</gallery></center>

[[category:Not related]]

Communism

2017-06-12T09:46:44Z

2001:8003:2A52:AA00:7952:982E:5B92:3775:

{{editwar}}
{{delete}}
{{NotFunny}}
[[Image:Communismleaders.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Contrary to western propaganda, this is how communism has always worked.]]
:''"Under [[capitalism]], man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."'' -Attributed to Yakov Smirnov

'''Short answer:''' Government gets to decide who gets what. Often touted as the supreme form of government by drunken poli sci majors.

'''Long answer:''' Communism is the economic and political system, and it works by screwing over the people and claiming it is in the benefit of the whole (the "[[Greater Good]]", so to speak) and the ownership of all industry by the workers. At least the bureaucracy has cool aesthetics when it shows up.

Throughout history there were various systems and methods based around the idea of not owning anything to various degrees (see also: Jesus Christ, the Paris Commune), but proper communism starts with Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, a 19th century proto-SJW NEET and a rich kid, turned socialist college student, turned businessman and hypocrite. These two developed their economic theory as a response to the effects of the Industrial Revolution, particularly since OSHA and its analogues and a minimum wage weren't a thing. He observed that while the mechanization of production was a good thing since it generated a lot of wealth, it was [[Butthurt|grossly unfair]] since said wealth was accumulating in the pockets of only a few [[Games Workshop|fucking rich pricks]] and most other people lived in Victorian poverty. He viewed society as being on a very clear cut path of social evolution with clearly defined phases and stages based around competition between various socioeconomic classes, and came to the conclusion that soon a [[Horus Heresy|revolution]] would end the division between social classes entirely as a single centralized state claimed ownership of all property and land for the good of its people. While his motivated reasoning made a few leaps in logic, and he never made a clear explanation of how this all would be achieved, he considered such a transition to be inevitable.

Another controversial aspect of communism, since it's a moral system, is that it tends to be anti-religious; this is why communists are described by their detractors as "godless" (especially Marx's version, as Marx himself was outspokenly anti-theistic atheist, even calling religion "an opiate of the masses, the heart of a heartless world..."). Communism has either caused or played a role in the violent persecution of religion and religious people, and the violent propagation of atheism, from the 20th century onward (as can be seen with Stalin's "League of Militant Atheists" in Soviet Russia). This is also seen to a lesser degree in China, where religion is allowed but tightly regulated...[[Blam|three guess what happens to religious locals who don't adhere]]. Though religious foreigners who don't are just deported; all religious leaders must swear absolute loyalty to the party before anyone or anything else and open evangelism is forbidden. This has resulted in the hilariously terrifying law that the Dalai Lama can't reincarnate without the party's permission - the practical side being that the party will get to choose their own successor for the position. On a somewhat lighter note, Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Terk, was an aggressive atheist who wrote the Federation as an idealized communist economy and made the Klingons and Romulans expies of communist nations. However, today this tends to either [[Skub|generate much debate]] or [[Squat|be swept under the rug]] by society for reasons including increasing secularization of Western society, vehement anti-communist atheists like Cristopher Hitchens ([[Retcon|a fromer communist himself, being a former Trotksyist]], and [[Derp|called Communism a ''religion'']]) and Libertarians, atheist states such as Sweden being heavily Democratic, while the last Stalinist state, North Korea, formally erased all references to Communism and now worships Kim il-Sung as the [[God-Emperor of Mankind]].

To make a very long story that composes much of 20th century history short and would likely require a college-level economics course just to understand why events played out the way they did (which doesn't stop modern communists from claiming they understand), some of his ideas were good on paper, but which he forgot the old adage "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". In practice, having [[High Lords of Terra|so much power accumulated in the hands of just a few top-level ministers who weren't accountable to anybody]] didn't work out to the benefit of the people([[derp|who would have guessed]]). Despite aiming for a classless society, oftentimes the heads of the party simply became an unofficial aristocracy, leading to the Orwellian adage "All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others." And that's besides the very frequent and violent purges or political imprisonment. States that attempted to implement communist ideology either tended to devolve into dictatorships themselves (or degenerated worker's states according to Trostsky such as the USSR), got crushed by counter of revolutionaries [[Troll|if a dictatorship was not in place]] (Revolutionary Catalonia), or learned the hard way that collectively controlling an entire economy in every possible way without something going horribly wrong is impossible. A common feature of communist regimes have been famines and a lack of domestic goods due to poor planning and short-sighted top-down strategies. As a result, trying to get it to work made more variations of Communism than there are lasguns in the Imperium.

==Communism in Traditional Games==
In general there are three ways communism is used in fiction and board games:

1: '''''FILTHY GODLESS COMMIE-NAZIS''''': Dangerous, faceless enemies, ripped straight from the wettest dreams of the Cold War-era American John Birch society. These communists are the enemy; a vast, brutal, godless horde determined to take over the world that our heroes must resist. Nowadays, this attitude is usually played for comedy, as in ''[[Paranoia]]'' where Friend Computer's glitched-out personality has made it a paranoid wreck obsessed with a largely-imaginary adversary (while creating some actual communists in the process). By the way, if you want an example of literal CommuNazis, the East German Stasi are a good place to start, although the Nazi part is mostly aesthetic and the Communist ideology is what was dominant. No way would God Emperor Stalin let Nazism actually resurface.

2: '''Champions of the Proletariat''': The other side of the coin to what is listed above. These are either rebels against corrupt corporate overlords (frequently cyberpunk heroes) or a body of workers and soldiers fighting against fascist invaders (any game from the Russian perspective in WWII will count), and most [[That Guy|people]] who complain about [[Games Workshop|GeeDubs]] think they are being this. Occasionally this show up in Medieval settings as anachronistic peasant revolts or other politically-radical types out to pull down the social parts of [[Medieval Stasis]].

3: '''GLORIOUS COMMUNISTS''': Somewhere between the other two and generally played for laughs. Communist regimes are oppressive, but also able to do great things through sheer force of Industrial Might, Soviet Super Science, Stalinist Architecture and Will-Of-The-People and can be heroic just as easily as villainous. See Red Alert-II and III, and to a lesser extent a few parts of the [[Imperium of Man]]. This is as close to the glorious accuracy of communism as you can get, comrade.

Communism has also provided us with the Russian army, which is an awesome gaming resource and reference, in a drunken, drown your enemies with bodies and artillery sort of way in World War II or send in the hardened, manly Spetsnaz and tanks in the Cold War. It is a sacred law of [[/tg/]] alternate history [[/tg/'s homebrews|homebrew]] settings that there must be at least one communist faction and it must control at least 50% of the world's total landmass. Even [[Warmachine| Khador]] draws on the imagery of the Soviet armed forces, despite being more analogous to Tsarist/Imperialist Russia politically, aside from their Manifest Destiny "Why can't everyone else just roll over and let us conquer them?!" ideology that has... [[Nazi| other roots]].

Like all radical ideologies, communists are all over [[Shadowrun|the Sixth World]], mostly among the poor and disenfranchised who can't help looking up at the big fancy megacorp enclaves and wondering how ''that'' makes any kind of just sense. The Berlin Flux State was probably the biggest and most successful anarcho-communist enclave in-setting for a while, before it became such an embarrassment to the megacorps insisting they should be the only game in town that many of them (including the one run by the great dragon Lofwyr) had it dismantled somewhere around second or third edition.

People like to call the [[Tau]] communist. There's ''some'' truth to that, given they're a highly-collective society that generally values group achievement over personal accomplishment, but they're also a largely class-stratified society, with only the assurance that their leaders are theoretically cooperating for the [[Greater Good]] to keep them from being out-and-out feudalists with castes. Then again, that isn't too different from what many commie states became. There was also the [[Gretchin Revolutionary Committee]], a parody of the kinds of communist guerrillas of previous decades, who are armed grots out to demand equal treatment from their Ork masters with comical results. The Imperium, being a decentralized feudalistic empire, undoubtedly has many worlds that have communist governing bodies and economies, and maybe even a few where things worked out okay.

[[Pathfinder Roleplaying Game|Golarion]] has got a semi-hemi-demi communist nation in-setting: Galt, land of insane, constant revolution where the only winners are the ''final blades''. It represents the "messy revolutionary" kind of communism rather than any of the three flavors above, though there's some obvious mixing with the principals of the French Revolution that was its more-direct inspiration.

''[[Star Trek]]'' is complicated. On the one hand, the Federation has essentially a communist economy, but their advanced technology has created a post-scarcity economy, so it can be interpreted that the producers thought this would be a natural product of a society where everybody was self-sufficient. Conversely, their chief rivals, the Klingons and the Romulons, are transparent analogues of the USSR and Maoist China seen through the pre-détente eyes of an American lounge lizard. Similar post-scarcity communists are common in ''[[Eclipse Phase]]'', though with a much stronger anarchist bent. They are largely and uncomplicatedly perfect due to the game designers' raging stiffy for that kind of thing.

Any WWII or quasi-WWII game worth its salt will have a communist faction, including the classic ''[[Axis & Allies]]'' and the modern wargame ''[[Flames of War]]''. Additionally, many classic board games have attempted to tap into the forty-five year struggle for dominance between Amurica and the communists. The most famous and best is probably ''[[Twilight Struggle]]''. [[TSR]] also released an RPG set during the Cold War called ''[[Top Secret]]'', though, like most non-''D&D'' TSR products, no one under thirty-five has ever heard of it.

{{BLAM|This article has been marked as containing treasonous capitalist road sentiments. Please report to your local commissariat for re-education through labor.}}

==Gallery==
<center><gallery>
File:AK-47.jpg|Glorious Soviet Industries could be used to produce huge numbers of reliable and effective things which are still in high demand after a half a century...
File:Lada 1200.jpg|...Their cars are not on that list.
</gallery></center>

[[category:Not related]]

Nazi

2017-06-12T09:32:00Z

2001:8003:2A52:AA00:7952:982E:5B92:3775:

{{cleanup}}

''"I have in this War a burning private grudge—which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler (for the odd thing about demonic inspiration and impetus is that it in no way enhances the purely intellectual stature: it chiefly affects the mere will). Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light."''
-[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]

''"[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHFtbSZ3KRE YOU UTTER FOOL! GERMAN SCIENCE IS THE FINEST IN ZE WORLD!!!]"''
-Stroheim, an over the top Nazi and the first Guile.

Important note: although the armed forces of Germany during World War II are commonly referred to as Nazis, "Nazi" only refers to the political party. The regular German armed forces were the ''Wehrmacht'', who were not necessarily Nazis (most likely "paper Nazis," citizens who took party membership solely for the benefits like "not being purged as a dissident"). After the war they were not considered Nazis, unlike the ''Waffen-Schutzstaffel'', or Waffen-SS, which were the actual military arm of the Nazi party and declared an inherently criminal organization, though much like every WW2 party involved, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht were not complete saints either] (including the contentious issue of whether dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was or wasn't a war crime)

== Historical ==
[[Image:Nazi uniforms.gif|thumb|right|150px|Nazis: Evil, but stylish]]
'''Nazi''' is the commonly used shorthand version of ''Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei'' (National Socialist German Workers' Party {Which is ironic, given that they hated [[communism|communists]]} {really, it's not, in the early years, the party had two wings, the left and the right, but the right under Hitler won the internal "Machtkampf"; furthermore, the party membership book had socialist and conservative elements (that's why Nazis are "brown" and not "black" like real conservatives) and it sounded good for workers as well as elites}, a political party which took over Germany <s>for 1,000 years</s> from 1933 to 1945. It also refers to people who belong to said party, their ideology, and their regime in Germany during said period of time. Led by Adolf Hitler, the Nazi Party emerged from the uncertainty and political upheaval due to the Red Scare, the end of the German Empire after the Great War, resentment at unfair conditions imposed by Treaty of Versailles, economic uncertainties due to the Stock Market crash of 1929, German ethnic nationalism, a desire to blame things on scapegoats, and a belief in militarism popular among many returning veteran's. They were also aided by their invention of modern campaigning and propaganda, wide-spread dissatisfaction with the status quo, the strategic seizure of the political positions that controlled the police force, and more dumb luck than anyone has any right to have, let alone a bunch of [[Imperium of Man|evil, racist]] [[Racial Holy War|loons]].

[[Image:Germania.jpg|thumb|left|150px|What the Nazis wanted]]
They soon mobilized their armies and launched a war of expansion. Their goal was to impose their militaristic Social Darwinistic ideology across Europe, outlaw any dissenting school of thought, enslave all the "sub-human" Slavs (after starving to death more than half of them in accordance to Generalplan Ost) and exterminate any "undesirables" (Jews, Roma, homosexuals, etc) on which they blamed all their problems because they felt that they were superhumans without any flaws; any problem which they suffered had to be the fault of some subversive "other" from outside who tried to cause the Master Race misery for no other reason than "the Evulz." But due to some tactical fuckups from Hitler and German command, Germany ended up with a three-way war with the British, the Soviets, and the United States, and their major allies like Italy caved at the ending years of the war. In the end, while Germany had the advantage in technology,(at least initially; by the end of the war they struggled with the lack of resources and collapse of their production lines and reverted to really low-tech solutions) it had no hope of repulsing both the Allies and the Soviets at the same time on their own, and thus, the Nazi regime finally met her end when the Soviets marched into Berlin, indeed, while their hate-wagon managed to go far and nearly overrun Europe they eventually got simply too many enemies to fight against, as most nations decided to oppose them either because they cherished their political freedoms, saw their economic markets negatively affected, or simply were in the Nazi "to-exterminate" list.

It is actually a known fact that through their actions the Nazis did manage to kill more white people (for non-whites there is basically no difference between a white English, German, Russian or French other than their funny accents) in recorded history than any "anti-aryan" enemy they could blame at, in fact, the war they started is one of the main reasons the European white population has been in decline during the last 60 years.
[[Image:Reichstag flag.jpg|thumb|right|150px|What the Nazis got]]

==Nazi Portrayal==
Nazis are portrayed as people who used vile actions towards a vile end (To his credit, Hitler did envision for Germany to be the greatest nation ever. Its just that his plan to attain this was the moral equivalent of driving a bus through a busy sidewalk filled with women and children). But (and this is important) rather than just being an alien other, they represented the worst qualities of industrial Western civilization (racism, militarism, hyper-nationalism, expansionism, manifest destiny, enforced conformity, social darwinism, eugenics and so forth) inflated and turned inward against bits of Western civilization. To modern western civilization, the Nazis have the role of the great foe. The great evil that wrought death and misery on Europe which needed to be stopped by all means possible. Their known track record of starting WW2, carving a bloody swath through Europe, and their infamous ethnic genocide and enslavement campaigns against undesirables have painted them as the most evil villain that the world has ever seen.

Now, this is just the popular opinion that is accepted; you will hear plenty of other viewpoints of the Nazis from other groups. Some will say their portrayal is riddled with the allied propaganda excessively demonizing them. Some will say that while the Nazis did give Europe a good stomping, the other participants were just as, if not more evil than the Nazis and that they're just being used as the poster boy (these people often say the [[Communism|Soviets]] had a worse track record than the Nazis in terms of people murdered by the state, or the Americans who nuked not one, but two Japanese cities.), and some people on the /pol/ side of the spectrum will say that Germany did the right thing and their enemies was actually the evil ones (remember, this is /pol/ we're talking). All in all, discussions that relate to the portrayal of Nazi Germany are bound to [[skub|generate heated debates]] due to numerous factors.

In relation to fantasy, however, varying opinions on the perceived Nazi character allows them to be looked at from varying points of view, developing their character all the more. Take the [[Imperium of Man]], for example. Some will say that the Imperium's a nutcase since they're willing to allow an Inquisitor to turn an entire hive spire into a towering inferno if he so happens to find a single heretic in a spire where millions of people reside in, on the grounds of "Hey, this guy is worshiping chaos. Those people might as well be worshiping chaos too and this might lead to the entire world rebelling. BURN EVERYONE". Some will say that the Imperium's just being pragmatic and such an action is justifiable as the Imperium is constantly beset by merciless foes who will not think twice to bring them down, as such their method for survival is cruel, but necessary. Which, given the fact that daemons really do exist and can corrupt entire planets in a short amount of time, is pretty justifiable. Even the Imperium's xenophobia is justifiable given how nearly [[Orks|all]] the [[Necrons|major]] [[Tyranids|races]] pretty much want to wipe everyone else out, [[Dark Eldar|or else]] enslave them. But that doesn't change the fact that these reasons are often just used as an excuse to torture and kill anyone who's even slightly unorthodox, either out of paranoia or because it amuses them.

==Impact on fantasy==
Militarily the Germans had, hands down one of the best armies of the time, well disciplined and well trained with experienced mid-level officers, this combined with borderline insane levels of morale at the start of the war due to years of giving the middle finger to the war wary western nations which capitulated to their demands turned the German into an [[chaos|unholy]] Juggernaut. The Germans were known to have some of the best armored tanks in the war, their small arms far outstripped the guns Europe had at the time, and were pioneers to many advanced technologies during their time that have become well known today, like jet engines, cruise missile systems, fully automatic rifles, stealth craft, and many others.

This, combined with their infamous cruelty, have spawned the Nazi-esque villain template where the villains are both powerful and [[Eldrad|gigantic dicks]] to everyone else, making them completely despicable. This is because if the villain is significantly weaker than the protagonist of the setting, most people will still feel a few grains of sympathy towards the former or make them a laughing stock. But, when you make the villain both an enormous asshole and just as or more powerful than the protagonist, all bets are off and he's fair game.

Of course, the weaknesses of Nazism also need to be taken into account, in that a lot of their supposedly superior technology turned out to be highly unstable and would frequently be outclassed and definitely out numbered by Allied designs once the latter got their shit together. Add poorly managed industry and the fact that supplies at times were delivered by horse (which was not actually that atypical since only America was that ridiculously mechanized), and you have a faction that is the epitome of style over substance. This really bit them in the ass later when the Allies, focusing on production and strategy over science fiction and tactics, managed to leg up the Third Reich and battle hardened allies soldiers became the top dogs without question. In fiction, expect the Nazi villains to have eventually have their technology outclassed or at least made irrelevant and the hardened heroes turn Nazi soldiers into cannon fodder.

On the political side of things, the batshit insane racial policies of the Nazis will be explored in fiction as being founded as junk science, or at least hypocritical when the fantasy faction's leaders turn out to not even come close to their own idea of racial purity (seriously, Hitler, Goering, Goebbels and etc. are the anti thesis to any common definition of superman). Not to mention Nazi's poltics have a tendency to make more enemies then friends preventing a 'the enemy of my enemy' situation working out in their favor.

Nazis are also the progenitors of all acceptable targets where human bad guys are concerned. Be it in vidya games or movies, nobody has a problem with Nazis getting gunned down by the hundreds by the heroes (well, the Nazis might, but screw those guys), and they don't even have to resort to the dehumanizing full helmets that most other villain goons have to wear to make slaughtering them okay.

A more comedic take on Nazis in fiction owes to wartime cartoons, where the soldiers and Nazi command are all bumbling idiots, because only an idiot would seriously consider becoming one. Hitler today has essentially been turned into a punchline with all the gags centered around him, which is kinda awesome when you think about it as dictators that wish to be feared would never want to be remembered as a joke.

===Examples===
*Many soldiers in the Imperium, such as the Thunder warriors and Steel legion, bare Lightening imagery. While not Nazi, the symbology shows great resemblance that of the British Union of Fascists. This is also interesting as their Leader, [[British Empire|Oswald Mosley]], was still politically active around the time of the formation of Games Workshop.
*In Star Wars, the forces of the Galactic Empire employ some Naziesque uniforms. Also, many of the weapons used (as they were all older real-world guns with window dressing) were German in origin, namely the StG44 (A295, DLT-20A), C96 (DL-44), and MG34 (DLT-19, DC-15A). They are also noticeably all human (with notable exceptions like Thrawn) in a series with a diverse list of aliens. Also the title "Moff" is equivalent to Gauleiter in Nazi Germany.
*In Dr.Who, the Daleks are defined for their fanatical hatred of anything that is not a Dalek.
*In Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man will often draw from Nazi Germany either indirectly (hatred, bigotry, willingness to use torture, repression, and terror to their ends) to overt (The Death Korps of Krieg). Though given their love for trench warfare, the Death Korps are closer to the Germans of the First World War rather than the second. The Imperium also draws from Stalinist Russia, North Korea, and even Jihadism with the Imperium's martyrdom obsession. Basically it's a grab bag of the worst of humanity's civilizations.
*In anime, there is the Principality of Zeon from ''Mobile Suit Gundam'', which also has elements borrowed from the WWII Empire of Japan.
*The most extensive take on the theme of Space Nazis would be the Helghast from ''Killzone'', where the people of Helgan see the ISA as Imperialist gits who forced them out of their planet for refusing their rule. Although by Shadow Fall, they become akin to Communist East Germans, being filled with political radicals and separated by a wall and all.
*The aptly named "Fourth Reich" from the Metro series, who, ironically being Russian and there fore the only race the Nazis hated more than Jews (this is made substantially more odd by the fact that they're based both on the original Nazis and a large number of real-life Russian Neo-Nazi groups), still hold fast to their National Socialist ideology, however they speak little German outside of common movie lines. At constant war with the Red Line. Thinks that Slavs are the superior race and all others must be destroyed. Their racial policies also extended to "mutant" humans infected with radiation.
*If you have a fantasy/sci-fi world, it will almost certainly have some sort of Nazi analogue floating around. At the same time, Nazis also figure into a lot of alternate history fiction; Nazis invading England, Nazis invading America, Nazis successfully conquering the USSR, Nazis getting the Bomb first, Nazis creating an army of mutant uber-troopers, Nazis on the Moon, Nazis using occult powers to summon demons to aid them, all of these have been done. The Nazi obsession in alternate history is largely due to the fact that we consider them (for right reasons) evil and our modern world is the result of an Allied victory. A Nazi victory to us is just unthinkable. Hell, this page itself is pretty long.
*Nazi ideologues may even show up in children's shows if one pays close attention (not counting war time cartoons).
**The Fire Nation from Avatar: The Last Airbender considers the element of fire to be superior to the other three (water, earth, and air) and wages a war of expansion and genocide against the other three nations, succeeding with a genocide against the air nomads. While the Fire Nation's broader culture and technology also has many connections to the Nazi's allies of Imperial Japan.
**The Gem Empire in Steven Universe hates organic life and constantly exploit planet resources to create more gems (Lebensraum). They also have a strict hierarchy and devotion to their fascist leaders, the Great Diamond Authority, and have a weird salute. They're basically The Imperium if rather than humans they were a mix of orks and Eldar.

== Trademarks ==
[[TSR]] had the ™ and © symbols next to the word 'Nazi' where it appeared in their Indiana Jones RPG. This was probably for the sake of the artwork reproduced from the movie, but it's been a source of teasing and flames about TSR trying to claim exclusive ownership of the term 'Nazi.' Same shit happened with Marvel and their WW2 villains, and probably with Fawcett Comics since 'Captain Nazi' was a villain fighting Captain "Shazam" Marvel.

==Nazis and [[/tg/]]==
/tg/ long ago realized something most competent people have: Nazis represent a great liberating force for any GM, for they represent a force that any player need not feel any remorse over resorting to violence against, because Nazis are the textbook template for villains in most settings: they desire world domination, see themselves as the apex species and view most others with utter contempt, wanton disregard for common life, have an industry primarily geared towards war, are the most powerful warmongers than anyone else, and they have that evil yet sublime aesthetic to their armies. Nazis are a modern setting variant of using [[slavery|slavers]] as your enemy in a fantasy game; they have little to no redeeming values, so they're great enemy fodder.

The association gives the players a motivation and to understand that these people are evil, allowing the GM to focus on other aspects of the story. Indeed, one can get similar results by simply providing details that lead us to conclude that any group you are facing off against are this universe's version of Nazis. That said, that same context makes using Nazis a double-edged sword and a lazy GM (or author, script writer, or whatever; this is hardly unique to roleplaying) can royally screw up if one uses them incorrectly. Used incorrectly, Nazis become a kitten-eating one-dimensional caricature of villains descended into self parody, which ''can'' work if the world is built for it. Kitten-eating Nazis work best in "goofy" settings where it's fully possible, and indeed expected for the final boss to be Hitler himself riding a cyborg dinosaur, but in a setting trying to take itself seriously, such flat villains do just that, fall flat and fail to incite the proper emotional reaction. Remember that the '''key''' to successful Nazi use is that emotional reaction. That exportation of real world baggage is the point, perhaps the sole point to use Nazis over some other villain. Nazis have the additional problem of not even needing to be exaggerated that much to make the worst of them into something like this. So care must be taken when one plays the Nazi card or it will come off as trite.

Entire stretches of [[d20 Modern|d20 Past]] are shown various ways to implement, ''Indiana Jones'' style, Nazis into any campaign during the early 1900s, and [[Savage Worlds]] has an entire supplement devoted to thwarting Nazi super-soldier plans during WWII. More clever GMs can do even more interesting things with it, such as backing up the savagery of the Nazis with [[Fist of the North Star|a humanizing element to make them more understandable, even if antagonists]], whilst another interesting setting, proposed for [[GURPS]], starts the players off ''as'' Nazis and has them turn against their former comrades as the movement becomes harder and harder to justify. It's also worth remembering that Nazis can be used for comedy as well; any one here heard of ''Hogan's Heroes''? All of these lead to some pretty great storytelling, just so long as the GM is aware of the real world baggage Nazis will bring to the game and is able to use that to deepen the experience, otherwise he'll have just created orks in fancy uniforms.

...And then you have bullshit like [[Racial Holy War|this nonsense]], which misses the point entirely and renders us all stupider for the knowledge of its existence.

==Nazi Gear, Weapons, and Vehicles==
For reasons above, if you decide want to use Nazis as your bad guys at tonight's game (or protagonists if you roll that way. Just don't use [[Racial Holy War|RaHoWa]] as a basis unless you want to end up with a trainwreck of a game.) [[Nazi Equipment |here]] is a brief run down of basic information on Nazi equipment.

==Gallery==

[[category:history]][[Category:Not related]]

Ecclesiarchy

2017-06-12T09:26:43Z

2001:8003:2A52:AA00:7952:982E:5B92:3775:

"''Hence Theocracy is the worst of all governments. If we must have a tyrant, a robber baron is far better than an inquisitor. The baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity at some point may be sated; and since he dimly knows he is doing wrong he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and fear for the voice of Heaven will torment us infinitely more because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience and his better impulses appear to him as temptations.''"

-[[C. S. Lewis]]

"''Thought for the day: blind faith is a just cause.''"

The Adeptus Ministorum, or '''Ecclesiarchy''', is the state church of the [[Imperium of Man]] and works with the [[Inquisition]], making it ''the'' group which defines [[heresy]]. The name is derived from the book of the Bible ''Ecclesiastes'' (an understandable choice, since The title Ecclesiastes is a Latin transliteration of the Greek translation of the Hebrew Kohelet, meaning "Gatherer", but traditionally translated as "Teacher" or "Preacher", the pseudonym was used by the author of the book).

[[File:Cathedral.jpg|right|thumb|500px|The Imperium spares no expense on its houses of worship, unfortunately we can't say the same about civilian accommodations...]]

When the [[God-Emperor of Mankind|Emperor of Mankind]] began setting up the Imperium, he began instituting the [[Imperial Truth]], which basically said "there are no gods and we're doing materialism and rationalism now." Yet even during the Great Crusade people began worshiping the Emperor as a "God-Emperor", including his own son [[Lorgar]], who wrote the Lectitio Divinatus. Which, ironically, proved effective at causing pain to demons when lines from it were spoken to them (since the Emperor had it backwards; faith and religion didn't give the Chaos God's power, faith and religion towards other things besides Chaos actually ''starved Chaos of power''). Suitably embarrassed, the Emperor politely informed Lorgar to stop that... by having the [[Ultramarines]] destroy a city the [[Word Bearers]] set up and then forcing Lorgar to bow down to Himself, [[Malcador the Sigillite]], and [[Roboute Guilliman]] in front of his legion. In an unfathomable and completely-impossible-to-predict act of [[Heresy]], this would lead to Lorgar worshiping the [[Chaos Gods]] and starting the [[Horus Heresy]].

And Rawbutt Girlyman is back, and he does not like the Ecclesiarchy (though it's their fundamentalism and reverence of the Emperor that Guilliman has issues with, not so much theism and religion itself; note his permissiveness of the Adeptus Mechanicus and Omnissiah). However the words of Cawl, Celestine and several others have made him keep the peace.

==The Church Itself==

The Ecclesiarchy itself is, officially at least, the one true faith of the God-Emperor. It is the organization dedicated to teaching His truths and His will to the vast masses of humanity, and all are united under it's banner. Therefore, no matter where you go the Imperium, the Cult of The Emperor can be found uniting it's masses under His benevolent rule. The reality, of course, is a bit more complex. The problem is that the Imperium is vast. Like, really vast. So much so that no one really knows how big it is, and an empire that big couldn't even begin to manage a galaxy wide faith. Therefore, what actually happens is that the Church of the God-Emperor is split into many faiths that don't actually resemble each other in any way.

On some worlds, the Emperor is worshiped as a distant father, watching over his children from far away. Others associate Him with a force of nature, believing that the wind is His voice and when He is angry He shouts at them causing great winds. Others assign some sort of totem animal, usually a predatory bird, that is considered sacred in His eyes. Some practice hymns and chants that wouldn't be out of place in our modern age, others prefer ritualistic dances and animal sacrifices. Despite all this varied and at times bizarre forms of faith, one thing is certain; there is only one god, only one Emperor, and they are one and the same.

The Ecclesiarchy attempts to promote and maintain the Cult of The Emperor wherever it can, if it is possible, to shape the local faith into something a bit more orthodox. As such, any planet with an Ecclesiarchal presence will eventually begin to resemble other faiths. Chapels will be built, a hierarchy of priests will emerge (what that hierarchy or even the priests will look like is a different thing altogether), and more extreme or shocking practices slowly weeded out or shaped into different forms. Even human sacrifice is re-purposed for the Emperor's benefit, as a culture that practices such things is much more willing to give up psykers to the Black Ships.

Ironically, this makes the Ecclesiarchy oddly tolerant and open minded as they travel across worlds. They are trained to see past the individual beliefs to examine the core of the faiths they encounter, and therefore are unexpectedly tolerant of opposing sects, where more close minded citizens would be quick to denounce them as heretics and traitors. After all, the Emperor is a wise and benevolent god who loves all his subjects regardless of who they are, and the Ecclesiarchy follows His example.

The one area the Ecclesiarchy tends to butt heads is with the [[Adeptus Mechanicus]]. On the surface, the Cult of the Machine God runs completely counter to worship of the God-Emperor, especially since the Mechanicus' religion predates the Imperial Cult (and the Imperium itself) by a few millenia. However, there is little that the Ecclesiarchy can do about it, since 1. The Treaty of Mars guarantees not only autonomy, but religious exemption to the Mechanicus, and 2. Pissing off the Mechanicus is a bad idea since they control all the ships and tech. Because going to war with half of the Imperium would be monumentally stupid, they came up with a compromise that the Emperor is the physical avatar of the Machine God, bringing the Mechanicus closer in line to the Imperial Cult. This compromise isn't very satisfying for the more extreme fanatics, which can and does form conflict between the institutions beyond the political strife of two powerful organizations arguing over jurisdiction.

Less tense are the relations between the Ecclesiarchy and the [[Adeptus Astartes]]; Most Space Marines, the Black Templars excluded, do not officially embrace the Imperial Cult, having followed the older [[Imperial Truth]] that the Cult eventually supplanted. Instead most view the Emperor as a father figure than as a God. The Ecclesiarchy allows this since, in a manner of speaking, it's true that the Emperor is their father and they're not stupid enough to start a holy war against one of the most powerful military assets the Imperium has to offer; not to mention that few priests have the sheer balls to argue faith with a ten foot tall giant in heavy armor, although anyone else who denies the divinity of the Emperor is fair game. Still, as a show of good faith, the Ecclesiarchy presents Rosariuses to [[Chaplain]]s to demonstrate the supposed relationship between the Imperial Cult and the ancient spiritual traditions of the Astartes. The only exemption are the Iron Fathers of the [[Iron Hands]], who worship the Machine God of the Mechanicus instead, something that bitterly annoys the Ecclesiarchy.

==Age of Apostasy==

{{Main|Age of Apostasy}}

After the Emprah was hooked up to the Golden Throne, a "Cult of the Savior Emperor" (more often referred to as the "Imperial Cult", since every Imperial's a member) was set up and eventually became the state religion as the Adeptus Ministorum, declaring the Emperor's very own Imperial Truth as Heresy. Well, more like claiming that the Emperor was trying to protect them through encouraging their ignorance of daemons. After all, declaring the Emperor's laws to be heresy would ''not'' go over well with the Astartes and Custodes.

The Ecclesiarchy was able to seize real political power in the wake of the [[Nova Terra Interregnum]]; after secular politics failed to reunite the twin empires of the Imperium, the Imperial Cult was able to leverage the widespread religious belief in the Emperor to bring Nova Terra back into the fold. However, this did not go smoothly; the Cataclysm of Souls resulted in vast amounts of bloodshed for anyone who rejected the Imperial Cult. This paved the way for the Age of Apostasy, when rival factions within the Imperial Cult battled for control of the church.

The Ecclesiarch, the head of the Ministorum, eventually got on the [[High Lords of Terra]], eventually supplanting the Master of the [[Administratum]] ''(the guy who actually runs the government)'' as head of the Council. To show just how much power they could wield, the Ecclesiarchy moved from Terra to Ophelia VII at great expense, leaving Terra to rot, then moved back once they felt that they made their point.

After that, the Ecclesiarchy did what every powerful group does: become more interested in its own power than the people they're supposed to be ministering, and public funds and taxes ended up funneling their way into the church, religious officials were making decisions on national policy and the like, since the Ecclesiarchy figured that the church and the state should be pretty much the same thing. The Ecclesiarchy also had a standing army called the '''Frateris Templar''' which stood apart from the [[Imperial Guard]], but was presumably bad-ass considering how wealthy the church was at the time.

=== Reign of Blood ===
Things took a major turn for the worse when '''[[Goge Vandire]]''', the Master of the Administratum, became Ecclesiarch at the same time, making himself the single most powerful person in the Imperium and started the Reign of Blood. Even by 40k standards this guy was nutters: He convinced an all-female sect called the "Daughters of the Emperor" ([[Daughters of Terra|No,not them...]]) to rename themselves the "Brides of the Emperor" and become his bodyguards, they were also give the ''"finest weapons and armour"'' that the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy could provide, which probably meant they were far better equipped than the later Sisters of Battle ever were.

He also instituted big brother policies of having [[Servo-skull]]s on every street corner listening for sedition, and engaged in mass executions/pillaging for the lulz, such as virus bombing planets, enslaving all female civilians of certain planets below the age of 12, melting polar ice caps etc, all the while claiming that he heard the voice of the Emperor himself.

A "rogue" preacher named [[Sebastian Thor]] and his "heretical" sect (the '''Confederation of Light'''), supported by a couple Space Marine Chapters and the Adeptus Mechanicus, went "fuck this" and invaded Terra to remove Vandire from the throne (so to speak). To the surprise of all present (except the Brides/Daughters), the defenders not only held off the invaders, but actually managed to give them a real beating. Before things got out of hand, the Adeptus Custodes took the leader of the Daughters to the Golden Throne to have a chat with the Emperor. She got insanely pissed off by something that happened there and cut off Vandire's head.

===Thorian Reformation===

Afterwards, Thor didn't actually sit still and started travelling the Imperium to put things back together again and preaching the Emperor's good name. Once Terra had recovered, they had only one person in mind for the job of Ecclesiarch: Thor, but he refused to come back until the Imperium [[What|declared him a traitor]] and sent an army to collect him.

Back at the Imperial Palace, the Captain of the Custodes took him aside for a quiet word, and told him that he should either take the job or end up [[Blam|vanished]]. Thus, as the newly appointed Ecclesiarch, Thor started the Thorian Reformation, in which the Temple of the Saviour Emperor was supplanted by Thor's Confederation of Light. The Ecclesiarchy was stripped of all military power and the '''Frateris Templar''' had their funding cut and were reduced to the '''Frateris Militia''' which were not allowed to be paid or trained under the Ecclesiarchy's budget, but, fortunately for them, since they were specifically banned from keeping "''men'' under arms", they [[Rules lawyers|reformed]] the Daughters into the [[Sisters of Battle|Battle Sisters]] of the Adepta Sororitas.

The [[Inquisition]] also set up the [[Witchhunters|Ordo Hereticus]] to make sure no one deviated from these new rules. The reformed Ecclesiarchy is only slightly less corrupt and divorced from reality as it was before, but now they feel guilty and beat themselves (and, unfortunately, everyone they minister to, which means every subjects of the Imperium) up about it! Occasionally, they even try (and fail) to fix it!

==Temple Tendency==

{{Main|Temple Tendency}}

Sadly, some people are still ''particularly'' abusive, and these people are accused of having a "temple tendency." Additionally, there's an ''actual'' heretic group called the Temple Tendency. They believe the Confederation of Light are the ''real'' traitors and (secretly) preach their creed in the hopes of turning back the clock. They employ preachers known as Vandiran Apostates, or Shade Priests, which is a much cooler name than "Confessor."

==Organisation==

At the top of the organisation is the Ecclesiarch himself, who is essentially the '''Space Pope''' and the equal-second (after the Master of the [[Administratum]] and along with the Fabricator-General of [[Mars]]) most influential individual in the entire Imperium.

Beneath him are the '''Cardinals''' of the '''Holy Synod'''. Although there are Cardinals all over the Imperium, each ruling their own Diocese ''(which is the religious equivalent to a '''sector''' in terms of size, but not organised the same way)'' the Holy Synod of Terra has a conclave of Cardinals who assist the Ecclesiarch in making religious decisions. Also, occasionally one of the members of the Holy Synod gets a seat on the [[High Lords of Terra]], which is essentially giving the Ecclesiarchy more influence in Imperial affairs (particularly if the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas gets a seat at the same time)

Beneath the Cardinals it moves downwards through the varying ranks of preachers, clerics, bishops, vicars, abbots, ministers, confessors all the way down to the the guys who light candles at shrines.

Aside from everyday priesthood there are a number of spin-off organisations that operate under the auspices of the Ecclesiarchy in one way or another.

===Adepta Sororitas===
{{Main|Sisters of Battle}}

While the sisters of battle represent the military might of the Ecclesiarchy the other orders of the sororitas also play highly influential roles for the church.

The '''Order Dialogus''' keeps the records and curates the relics of the Ecclesiarchy and are some of the most well educated and respected people in the entire Imperium when it comes to researching histories, languages or customs.

While the '''Schola Progenium''' trains generations of orphans to become "ideal" Imperial citizens, the '''Order Famulous''' get the job of "attending" the next generation of the Imperial elite. Teaching and educating key figures in Imperial nobility, these individuals grow up to be some of the most devout followers of the Imperial Creed and inevitably strong supporters of the Ecclesiarchy.

===Schola Progenium===
{{Main|Schola Progenium}}

===Frateris Militia===
While the military might of the Ecclesiarchy was heavily curtailed by the '''Decree Passive''' that hasn't actually stopped them from summoning huge amounts of manpower when they need to.

All a cardinal needs to do is point somewhere and say the word: "Crusade" and inevitably people will show up voluntarily in their millions. Most of them untrained and ill-equipped. But when it comes to manpower, the Ecclesiarchy can usually rely upon numbers to rival that of the [[Imperial Guard]].

[[Games Workshop]] used to actually have rules for the Frateris Militia waaaay back in the 2nd edition Sisters of Battle Codex, but they vanished inexplicably, reappeared briefly as a Troops choice for Codex: Witchhunters in a White Dwarf trial rules article under the name "Zealots" which could equally have represented [[Redemptionist]]s as well as the Frateris.

They haven't been forgotten about though, and FFG published rules for playing one in [[Dark Heresy]], which is a decent way of giving more non-combat oriented careers the basic training in weapons and a few combat talents far earlier than they could have otherwise obtained.

===Crusader Houses===
{{Main|Crusaders}}
A breach of the '''Decree Passive''', Crusaders are professionally trained warrior-monks, equipped with specialist wargear.

[[Crusaders]] are trained in secretive warrior-lodges that are not directly associated with the Ecclesiarchy at all. According to the Codex: Adepta Sororitas the Crusaders associated with the Ministorum are recruited from the "Guard of the Cardinals Crimson". However, this may be a front, as many Crusader Houses are sponsored by the [[Inquisition]], though it is uncertain if the Ecclesiarchy itself actually knows about that. For its part, the [[Inquisition]] deliberately allows the Ecclesiarchy to possess Crusaders in small numbers - there are all manner of uses for having a provable crime always ready to hand that the Ecclesiarchy is guilty of.

Membership is by invitation-only, chosen from those who will make ideal hand-to-hand warriors. Within the house they are deeply immersed in the Imperial Creed and are trained to be perfect bodyguards, putting the well-being of their holy charges ahead of themselves.

===Battle Conclave===
{{Main|Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave}}
Whenever a traveling priest (or sometimes an Inquisitor) wants a little more protection, they can form up an [[Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave]]. Because they can't have too many men due to the Decree passive, many opt instead to go with the scariest, most righteously out-of-their-mind fanatics they can find. Mostly formed from [[Arco-flagellant]]s, Crusaders, and [[Death Cult Assassin]]s, this terrifying force would make anyone think twice about fucking with him.

===Missionarius Galaxia===
Not all of the priests tend shrines or preach at mass. One of the most well known functions of the Ecclesiarchy is bringing religion to the heathen humans beyond the territories of the Imperium.

Most of the missionaries accompany the Imperial Guard as they expand outwards, conquering or reconquering worlds, making certain that those who rebuild afterwards become loyal subjects of the Imperium.

Some Missionaries take it a bit further and don't even travel with Imperial Guard regiments, instead preferring to travel alone to hostile human worlds and bringing the light of the Emperor to them in more peaceful ways. These '''Torchbearers''' are expert survivalists and considerably more resilient than normal Ministorum Priests, having to live and prosper without any back-up at all.

===Confessors & Witch Finders===
Like the [[Inquisition]], the Ecclesiarchy concerns itself with rooting out heresy and apostasy. Unfortunately for the Ecclesiarchy it is not officially sanctioned to do so by the Imperium. However that has not stopped the ministorum from trying.

'''Confessors''' are loud, bombastic and charismatic priests of the Imperial Cult, but are not given specific duties like most members of the priesthood. Instead they are given carte blanche to travel freely from settlement to settlement and "cleanse" them of their sins. Typically by performing rousing soapbox rants about how wicked thoughts make the <s>baby Jesus</s> EMPEROR cry. So people are encouraged to come forward to confess their sins to the confessor where he can decide an appropriate penance for them to clear their consciences. Confessors can be like the 40k equivalent of celebrities, and there is often great anticipation of their arrival in town, and big crowds show up to hear them preach (and probably hear their neighbours salacious confessions too). Sometimes people don't want (or have sins) to confess, so the confessor has to take it a [[RIP AND TEAR|little bit further]] to coax the individual to think hard about their crimes. Usually to the point of the penance afterwards being more merciful than the coaxing itself.

'''Witch Finders''' fulfill much the same function, except are far more pro-active in "finding" sinners but are not necessarily required to be ordained priests, and many of whom are actually [[Inquisitor]]s-in-training. Results can vary in their effectiveness in finding heretics though, since they usually take a religious approach to determining the guilty rather than an investigative approach like normal "sane" people. Some examples of this crazy manner of determining guilt is to lock a suspect in an airlock and evacuate the air for an hour, Or to bury a suspect to his neck in sand and sew their mouth shut and leave them for a week... if they survive then they are deemed a witch and must be incinerated. While this is logically true, since if they survive they MUST be supernatural, it doesn't seem very hopeful for the innocent now does it? At least the Inquisition-proper occasionally gives you some intelligent form of investigation, even if you still die for being innocent.

==Notable Members==
* [[Arch-Confessor Kyrinov]], an Arch-Confessor who uses overt loud-mouthed preaching to conceal the fact that he's a cunning manipulator, often subverting heresies from within.
* [[Uriah Jacobus]], a belligerent old missionary who combines won't stop spreading the word of the Emperor to the darkest parts of the galaxy even though a sane person probably would've retired decades ago.
* [[Cardinal Armandus Helfire]], a bear of a man, Helfire can often be found leading Wars of Faith against Chaos forces near the Eye of Terror. Despite his station, he can often be found living and fighting amongst the soldiers he leads.

{{Template:Imperium}}
[[Category:Warhammer 40,000]][[Category:Imperial]]

Roboute Guilliman

2017-06-12T09:22:14Z

2001:8003:2A52:AA00:7952:982E:5B92:3775: /* 41st millennium / Gathering Storm */

[[File:Robute_Guilliman.jpg|450px|thumb|right|I'm surrounded by plebians.]]
''"[[Horus|Leadership is not magnetic personality]], [[Fulgrim|that can just as well be a glib tongue]]. [[Vulkan|It is not "making friends ]][[Lorgar|and influencing people]]", that is flattery. Leadership is lifting a person's vision to higher sights, the raising of a person's performance to a higher standard, the building of a personality beyond its normal limitations."''<br>
- Peter F. Drucker

''"Si vis pacem, para bellum. If you want peace, prepare for war."''<br>
- Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus

'''Roboute Guilliman''' ("Row-BOOT-ay" "GILL-uh-man" ɹəʊ-buːt-eɪ ɡɪl-ə-mæn) is the Primarch of the [[Ultramarines]], and a man with a staggering collection of nicknames, including but not limited to: Rowboat Girlyman, Roman Gorillaman, Rawbutt Girlyman, Robobutt Gigatan, Rampant Gullytan, Robot Gigglytan, Raw-Rigged Ginger-Fan, Robot Gulliver, Robo Git, Robust Gilligan, Robit Ghillie Suit, Reboot Gigabyte, Robert Gullible, Roboot Girlymayne, Robot Gorillaman, Robooty Guillotine, Roman Gogillian, Rusty the Gullible, R. Gooliman Esq. Rowyourboat Downthestreamlyman (and any and every combination of the above), Julius Caesar ''in SPESS'', Big Blue Daddy, Papa Ultra Smurf, Big Bobby G, Space Marine Jame Bond or High Lord Douchebag and Ward's Ever Chosen Robart. He's also quite possibly the single most [[skub]] person in the setting, thanks to him being depicted as a total ungodly [[Mary Sue]] in many older sources, and being depicted as quite likable and level headed in others. The dislike for him is often based more around his legacy and the reception (or lack there of) of a [[Codex Astartes|certain infamous book]], although he did have a cold, imperious streak to his personality that occasionally caused friction between his brothers and himself, most famously being partially responsible for turning [[Alpharius]] to chaos. [[Omegon|Maybe]]. It's [[Iron Snakes|hard to tell]].

Apparently he and [[Sigmar]] are behind the sudden surge of good policies done by [[Games Workshop|GeeDubs]].

==History==
===Early Life===
Unlike most worlds that the other Primarchs landed on, Macragge was a pretty great place to live. Guilliman was found by a politician while they were on a hunting trip. Konor, the man who took him in, was a pretty cool dude, he advocated helping the common man and reforms that would make the world a meritocracy. These were a major influence on Roboute and stayed with him throughout his life. It also says something that Konor's seneschal, Tarasha Euten, was effectively Guilliman's surrogate mother, making him one of the only Primarchs to have a conventional family, [[Butthurt|a fact that twisted Konrad Curze's nipples to no end (which goes double when she tells him to go fuck himself)]].

One day while Roboute was coming back after fighting the Macragge's version of the Gauls, he found his home in disarray. Konor was the victim of some Roman politics. The other co-ruler, Gallan, was pissed off at all these reforms and so just sent his army to rape, pillage and burn. Seeing his once peaceful home burning, neighbors looting and killing each other; left the second major impact on Roboute and the most likely source of why he was always so anal about keeping things in order.

After gutting Gallan and restoring order, Roboute worked to make his father's dream a reality. This was the third major impact on his life: though he claimed that Gallan's death was justice, Guilliman came to realize that it was in fact vengeance, and worked to master his emotional self-control. By the time the [[Emperor]] reached Macragge, Roboute had ruled for five years and turned the world into a place where you had to earn your place, not just be born, like what his father wanted.

===Great Crusade and Horus Heresy===
[[File:Know No Fear huge.jpg|400px|thumb|right|''"Lorgar of Colchis. You may consider the following. One: I entirely withdraw my previous offer of solemn ceasefire. It is cancelled, and will not be made again, to you or to any other of your motherless bastards. Two: you are no longer any brother of mine. I will find you, I will kill you, and I will hurl your toxic corpse into hell’s mouth."'' - Roboute Guilliman, channeling Bryan Mills.]]
Guilliman put to use his skills as a tactician and strategist to fight in his Father's crusade, preferring to form battle plans rather than actually participate in the fighting himself though he still did his fair share of Xeno-killing. In the hopes of passing down some of his strategic expertise, he worked very hard to turn the Ultramarines into an army of thinkers. His primary rule as a commander was "Information is victory", emphasizing that Space Marines needed theoretical knowledge and practical experience, in other words, a sound understanding of the tactical situation and a means to achieve their objective. Given that battle plans proved to be the first casualty, Guilliman soon realized that he would need to refine his own strategies even as he codified them, lest they fall apart in the chaos of warfare. In spite of that, with over 250,000 legionaries, he managed to achieve compliance on the highest number of worlds during the [[Great Crusade]], but was surpassed in ''military'' victories not only by the [[Luna Wolves]], but by [[Space Wolves]] and [[Dark Angels]] as well. Meaning he was either a good diplomat or his crusade encountered much more peaceful human societies not being mutants than average one. Or both. The planets were also model military worlds, and the Ultramarines would not leave until a modern [[Planetary Defence Force]] was established. He really should've been put jointly in charge of administration post-Ullanor, which would've made premature, excessive taxation of newly integrated worlds a lot easier to avoid (and therefore fewer worlds would have joined Horus' rebellion). Or probably not: after all, Guilliman didn't change a thing on Nuceria, a beautiful feudal world of charming people enjoying slaves and pit fights and slaves fighting in pits (not to say they were fucking responsible for the mess Angron turned into) after incorporating it in his empire; it was of no concern to Robaut, the only thing he cared about was resources and taxes arriving in time. So while central worlds of Ultramar prospered, provinces were a whole lot shitty place to live up to the point populace ''didn't know who Guilliman is'' (and I'm not making it up, Lion spits this information in Roboute's face in "Unremembered Empire").

When civil war broke out, Guilliman was tricked into taking most of his Legion to Calth for a joint Ultramarines/[[Word Bearers]] engagement. While most of his Chapter Masters believed it was just Horus flexing his muscle, Guilliman realized it was partly political: when the Emperor of Mankind rebuked [[Lorgar|Lorgar Aurelian]] for spreading the ''Lectitio Divinatatus'', he ordered the Ultramarines to burn Monarchia, capital city of Khur, as an example of what would happen to those who continued to defy the [[Imperial Truth]]. Guilliman carried out his orders and didn't show Lorgar any sympathy, but privately confided to some of his officers his discomfort in doing so, feeling that the total humiliation would irreparably damage relations between the XIII and XVII Legions. Guilliman saw this as a chance to mend fences and forge friendships the old fashioned way: by getting Space Marines to kill Orks. Unfortunately, Horus and Lorgar used the Calth muster to kill nearly half the Legion in a surprise attack. When he found out Lorgar's treachery he personally declared to hunt Lorgar down and kill him, only to be attacked by some sort of [[Daemon]]ic proxy and voided onto his flagship. Guilliman did what any other pissed off Primarch would do: go on a rampage against Word Bearers trying to board the ''Macragge's Honour'' by punching them to death. In near vacuum. Without a helmet]]. ''For half an hour.'' ([[Dan Abnett]] is still pretty proud of that scene). After the Battle of Calth, Guilliman had to contend with the Shadow Crusade, as Lorgar and Angron razed 26 of Ultramar's worlds with their main fleet, and who knows how many with the splinter fleets.

After seeing off the Shadow Crusade, Guilliman decided that if his father could not be saved, His ideals would be, setting up a new government called [[Imperium Secundus]], a second Imperium of Man which would reject Horus's alliance with [[Chaos]]. Although potentially traitorous, Guilliman's motives at least ''appeared'' sincere, he made a big hoohah about not taking the throne himself, since he would look like a Tyrant if he did. Fortunately/Unfortunately, [[Lion El'Jonson|The Lion]] arrived at Macragge and didn't like [[heresy|where it was heading]]. Neither brother trusted the other with the job of ruling the next Imperium, so [[Sanguinius]] got the job only to settle the matter between the two and was declared regent of the Imperium in the Emperor's absence, which meant fuck all because he promptly got murdered by Horus in the battle of Terra.

Whatever his intentions, Guilliman led over one hundred thousand Ultramarines to Terra with the [[Dark Angels]] and the [[Space Wolves]], intent on relieving the [[Blood Angels]], [[Imperial Fists]], and [[White Scars]] defending the throneworld. Learning about this and knowing that he could not sustain the assault on Terra anymore once the bulk of the loyalist forces came into the fight, Horus lowered the void shields upon the ''Vengeful Spirit'' in an all-or-nothing gambit to win the war by killing the Emprah in a duel. By one collosal fuckup or another, the vastly superior relieving force DIDN'T crush the beleaguered traitor forces. The traitor legions fled Terra, the scouring kicked off, the Guilliman anticlimactically got stabbed in the neck by [[Fulgrim]] and the resulting poisoning had him sitting on a stasis throne for the better part of 10,000 years.

===41st millennium / Gathering Storm===
[[File:16999239_340497286345256_3126583543407667659_n.jpg|400px|right|thumb|Our [[Spiritual Liege]] about to give [[Skarbrand]] a [[Sanguinius]]-style head chopping.]]
:''We shall give the humans a demigod. A king reborn with a deathly blade.'' - Prince [[Yriel]].

As we know, after being poisoned by Fulgrim, Guilliman was put into stasis. A popular rumor was that he was slowly healing, though that would be impossible in stasis. Eventually, after a kiss from [[Yvraine]] and a nice mekadendrite massage from [[Belisarius Cawl|Cawl]], he feels better. He plays a major role in the third Gathering Storm book. That's right; Gorillaman is back! And in plastic! Somebody call Fulgrim, he'll be pissed! (Spoiler alert. He is really, really pissed. So is Mortarion. Magnus had a chuckle though.)

Also, it seems that [[Saint Celestine]] and Inquisitor Greyfax have convinced Roboute to tolerate the [[Ecclesiarchy]] (for now anyway). Suffice to say, he was <u>'''NOT'''</u> pleased with the Emperor-centered state religion that sprung up while he was asleep (though it's their fundamentalism and reverence of the Emperor that Guilliman has issues with, not so much theism and religion itself; note his permissiveness of the Adeptus Mechanicus and Omnissiah) though after a bit and knowing its use he works the Imperial Faith into one of his speeches, even though it leaves a bad taste in his mouth.

Essentially, after Roboute was resurrected, he proceeds to wipe out an entire horde of veteran chaos marines without taking a single scratch [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atxYe-nOa9w (there is a scene where he one-punches a Chaos Terminator through a bronze and marble column)], then he immediately took command of the local imperial forces and used his [[Tactical genius|tactical genius]] to inspire the combined forces of Chaos to simultaneously shit themselves. Within a month, Girlyman routed the entire invading Chaos force on Macragge in a series of battles and heroic duels worthy of any primarch. Once Macragge is liberated, Papa Smurf then looked to liberate the rest of the Macragge system, this time with help from the Primogenitor Chapters, the [[Dark Angels]], [[Space Wolves]], [[White Scars]], a [[Sisters of Battle]] army, the remaining [[Black Templars]], more [[Imperial Guard|Guardsmen]], a ship containing an entire [[Imperial Knight|Knight Household]], an entire [[Imperial Navy]] battlegroup, and the [[Mechanicus]] with an entire [[Titan|Titan Legion]] backing them. He also declares the independent sovereignty of the five hundred worlds null and void, assuming direct control over his former territories. [[Rape|There was no kill like overkill.]]

During his coronation as uber-boss of Ultramar, a fragment of [[Fulgrim]] possessing a planetary governor infiltrated the many, many pilgrims and dignitaries who had shown up to verify the Primarch's resurrection, and offered him a golden wreath to wear. The wreath was cursed to show Guilliman all his potential glories and lead him to the embrace of Slaanesh. When he saw through the deception and ordered the infiltrator slain, Fulgrim promised that Guilliman would never take any satisfaction from his victories ever again. Which kind of reinforces the notion that Fulgrim is beyond [[Butthurt]] that he did not kill Papa Smurf.

Later, [[Nurgle]] inflicted a plague on Ultramar called '''The Sorrows/Weeping Plague''' that spread via insects and caused its victims' eyes to rot out. However, the only known cure for the disease was to be admitted to the presence of Guilliman himself. Realising that it was a devious trick to play on the Primarch's compassion and contain Guilliman in Ultramar, he declared that he would not repeat the mistake of [[Imperium Secundus|defending his own realm while the rest of he galaxy burned]] and needed to go to Terra for the [[Greater_Good|Greater Good]] of the Imperium, and left his Apothecaries to try and find a cure.

After Robby G has finished his job in ousting [[Chaos]] from Ultramar, the Ynnari bid their farewell, as they have other psychic mumbo-jumbo to do elsewhere. Roboute and Yvraine said their goodbyes, Roboute said that he is in debt to Yvraine for bringing him back to life and Yvraine telling Roboute to stay safe. Although in all honesty the respect between the two is interesting, because it shows two historically opposed forces allying rather civilly to work towards a common goal, showing that Geedubs might be going a bit [[Warhammer Fantasy Battles|old-school]] with this, having the (somewhat) less evil factions uniting against chaos, tempering the Grimderp of the setting with a little pragmatism, and who better to do that than Mr. Practicality and and the world's most morally flexible Eldar?

[[File:YvraineXGuilliman.png|300px|left|thumb|[[Extra Heresy|HERESY TO THE EXTREME!]]]]
It is known that while heading to Terra on ''Macragge's Honour'', the Thousand Sons transport him into the Maelstrom, where a warband of [[Red Corsairs]] and daemons led by [[Kairos Fateweaver]] attack him and his allies. Kairos manages to "bind Guilliman in chains of his own guilt, anger, and disappointment" (kinky) and toss him into a cell on a [[Blackstone Fortress]], which the Red Corsairs apparently got from Abbadon as a gift in exchange for their loyalty. However, his relief comes in the form of none other than '''[[Cypher]]''' who has been led to Guilliman by the [[Harlequins]] and a bunch of [[Khorne|Khornate]] daemons led by [[Skarbrand]] assaulting the Blackstone Fortress when Kairos insisted on keeping Guilliman alive for future plans. Cypher makes a deal with Guilliman, freeing him and the crusader army from bondage and offering the [[Fallen Angels]]' support in exchange for a free pass to Terra and the Imperial Throne Room to fulfill his destiny. After fighting their way through an army of daemons and escaping through the webway, they are pursued by the [[Thousand Sons]] but fight their way through to Luna and continue the battle on Terra's doorstep, and eventually Guilliman winds up having a duel with [[Magnus]] himself. Guilliman looks to be losing the fight until he gets saved by the [[Sisters of Silence]], supported by the [[Imperial Fists]] and the [[Adeptus Custodes]], who drop in to save the day. When he finally arrives on Terra, Guilliman has a sudden, dreadful epiphany after seeing Cypher's sword and then proceeds to retcon his deal by getting Cypher arrested by the Custodians before he could see the Emperor ''(though Cypher, being Cypher, immediately escapes, but is shown to have a particular bad case of [[Not_as_planned|butthurt]], first time in 40k history!)''. Given how honorable Guilliman is, it ''must'' be something bad if he would resort to backing out on his word.

Guilliman then gets an audience with the Emperor behind closed doors, at which point Big E presumably said, "I know that [[Imperium Secundus|last time you went Empire Building]] I got really mad at you and all, but uh... I sorta need you to do some Empire Building." When Guilliman emerged, he would say he got all the enlightenment he needed and then declares himself '''Lord Commander of the Imperium''' ''(his old job)'' before forcibly deposing some [[High Lords of Terra|High Lords]] he doesn't like and replacing them. Whilst his deposing of some of the High Lords may seem unnecessary given the desperate/fragile state of the Imperium, do take note that Guilliman is a meritocrat and an administrator first and foremost, so if anyone can save the Administratum and the Imperial Senate, it's him. Thus him rearranging the High Lords is perfectly in character as the High Lords have been repeatedly established as being almost entirely self-serving individuals who are incompetent at best and utterly uninterested in anything other than expanding their personal power at worst- in short, everything Guilliman is not. If anything, it would be even more out of character for Guilliman to just look the other way given their (lack of) overall performance.

[[Tl;dr]], Robby came, he saw, and he gave the entire Chaos Space Marines an [[Anal circumference|anal pounding]] like no other. And now he has to make the entire Imperium get its shit together.

===8th Edition===
To stem the tide of traitors, xenos, and Chaos, Roboute Guilliman declared the Indomitus Crusade against the enemies of the Imperium. In order to accomplish this, he unveiled the [[Primaris Marines]], a project 10,000 years in the making to create a superior Space Marine. Between battles, he's also begun to compose a (relatively) accurate history of the Imperium of Man (much to the Inquisition's annoyance since no sane Inquisitor would say 'no' to a Primarch, let alone the regent of the Imperium). The Crusade lasted about a century; while it was able to drive the forces of Chaos away from some of their new holdings, even Gulliman knew that it was only enough to stabilize the Imperium in its current state.

The Dark Imperium novel has portrayed him as having become far more cynical over the events of the Indominus Crusade, in no small part due to frequently butting heads with the Inquisition and the nobility, who saw Guilliman's reforms as a threat to their personal power. While he still believes in the Emperor's ideals, his belief in the Imperial Truth has been shaken; though he knows the Emepror is not quite human any longer, he has noted that even if Emps is a god something as cold and callous as him doesn't deserve worship in the first place. According to Guilliman, when he met with the Emperor, the latter treated him as little more than a favorite tool that had only just been recovered, as opposed to being the last of his loyal sons.

As of now, Big Bobby G is splitting his time between his history work, preventing the Imperium's appalling situation from getting worse, and writing the '''Codex Imperialis''' which is basically the [[Codex Astartes]] on civil society and good governance. The compilation of the Imperium's history is just one part of the new Codex which is to fix the semi-functioning clusterfuck that is the Imperial bureaucracy. He hopes that if or when he dies for good, his successors will use it for guidance rather than going with the head-up-ass approach they've taken in the past.

==Personality==
Roboute Guilliman is a mix of the classical patrician and the archetypal virtuous politician. He's studied, efficient, extremely intelligent even when compared to his own demigod brothers, and morally resolute. He values merit and results over birth or flattery, and he emphasizes in his troops that information is victory, that a sound grasp of theory and a strong ability for the practical is necessary in resolving all problems. He's also rather tolerant of different moods and mentalities, so long as they still serve the Imperium's goals. The barbarous overtones of the [[Space Wolves]], the standoffish eccentricities of the [[White Scars]], even quiet religious practices on his own world, these things never bothered him. After all, the Ultramarines had clearly demonstrated the superior merit of their ways, and those ways would rub off on the more eccentric factions of the Imperium over time, right? Call it faith and trust, call it arrogance and presumption, but Guilliman genuinely believed that he controlled the most disciplined, civilized peoples and armies within the Imperium, and he thought his way was best, but contrary to what many think of him he didn't go out of his way to force his ways on others, he simply made all his writings and tactics available to all his brothers, and told his men to be at their best when fighting alongside the other factions. He only ever criticized or scolded when the circumstances seemed extreme, such as Alpharius's unnecessary targeting of enemy civilian populations to damage morale, or Perterabo's wasteful decimation of his own legion. This attitude was likely the reason Guilliman was passed over for the role of Warmaster, as he didn't get along well with many of his brothers, counting only [[Rogal Dorn]], [[Sanguinius]], [[Horus]], [[Ferrus Manus]], and [[Vulkan]] as friends, though he did have a sincere admiration and respect for [[Leman Russ]] and [[Jaghatai Khan]]. He also saw a potential for common ground with Lorgar, but that potential was never explored because of... [[Heresy|Reasons]].

Guilliman was also an organizational savant unmatched in all the galaxy. He was known to calculate logistical information and strategies far faster than the mechanicum's best logic engines, planning out entire planetary invasions in his mind in moments, a feat only matched by his brother the Lion. Though many of his brothers were godly tacticians, Guilliman uniquely focused on what came after the war: how the world could be used, improved, colonized, uplifted. Guilliman insisted on ensuring that any populated world the Ultramarines took was left with working infrastructure, an able and trained PDF, and a decent quality of life for civilian populations. This cold calculation often bled into his personal life however. The best example of this might be his dealings with [[Lorgar]]. After the Ultramarines were used by the Emperor to sanction the Word Bearers, Guilliman privately admitted to some of his officers that he sincerely regretted that it had happened that way, being uncomfortable censuring his brother that way, and fearing that the damage in relations it caused between the XIII and the XVII would be permanent. After all, there was much potential for kinship between Lorgar and Guilliman, and their legions. What legions were more devoted to the Emperor than those two? Which brothers thought most of the future, of what comes after the conquest? The sudden void of lost potential between the legions was tragic. So what did Guilliman do? Did he seek out his brother later to make amends? Did he have a quiet meeting with his brother to confess his discomfort and seek reconciliation? Send a nice gift basket perhaps? No. Guilliman set up a formal, impersonal meeting between the two of them, alongside their captains, retinues, and aides. [[FAIL|Forty. Years. Later.]] By that time it was much too late.

Though above his genius, above his skills as an administrator and a statesman, Guilliman's most noteworthy characteristic is probably being one of the few well adjusted, sensible people in the entire freaking galaxy. He encouraged his sons to diversify their interests in combat, not to [[Emperor's Children|art]] or [[Blood Angels|fine]] [[Salamanders|crafts]], but to governance and law, city planning and infrastructure. He was a pragmatist, and was well aware of the need for his legion to be useful outside of war, knowing full well what would have to happen to [[World Eaters|some]] [[Night Lords|legions]] when the wars had ended. Guilliman was also one of the few Primarchs who didn't really see the Emperor as his father, paying lip service to the idea, but being the first to state how shitty the Emperor was at raising kids, and he never fully forgave the Emperor for using him and his Legion as a tool to humiliate Lorgar. He understood how to run an empire, how to inspire loyalty and how to temper the flawed nature of humanity with organisation and discipline. The Emperor's greatest failing was always a lack of understanding in the people he ruled, a flaw that few saw in him, save perhaps for [[Malcador the Sigillite]] and Guilliman.

Ultimately we get a picture of a man who's charismatic, but impersonal. Brilliantly intelligent, but often blinded by arrogance and faith. Meritocratic and receptive to the common man, but often cold and distant. A good general and warrior, but above that he was a statesman and a leader. If Horus is a conqueror at heart, if Lorgar is a demagogue, Guilliman is a CEO or Governor, a man whose concern is less the glories and bloodshed of war, and more the administrative work that follows.

After his long nap he seems frustrated with the new (old) Imperium and shaken by his meeting with the Emperor, but that good 'ol Ultramarine spirit is still with him, so he got up, stretched his limbs, and went to town for an ass whooping. A few of his actions thus far are imminently noteworthy. He dissolved the independent sovereignty of any worlds that were historically part of Ultramar, has started catering to the Imperial Creed in one of his speeches, is openly cooperating with xenos witches, and essentially taking the role of Emperor 2.0. That's not to say that any of those choices are wrong or unnecessary, but they're all notable because they show that Guilliman is now more inclined to sudden, imperious action where once he might have used diplomacy; however, this may be a result of having to singlehandedly salvage the entire Imperium
even as it fights against his attempts at reform. Overall, Guilliman is disillusioned with his dad, disgusted by the Ecclesiarchy, and disappointed with the Imperium as a whole. His sense of duty and faith in humanity is as strong as ever, but his faith in the Emperor has been badly shaken.

==Popular Opinion==
''All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.''<br>
- Sun Tzu

Guilliman is mostly hated by the community at large because of [[Matt Ward | Mattards]] Codex: Space Marines. However, it is worth stating that Guilliman was probably one of the most important figures holding the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy. He's pretty much the only Primarch to realize that the Emperor's ideals were more important than the man himself, which is something that [[Malcador the Sigillite|Malcador]] kept preaching.

He was also the best Primarch when it came to logistics and organization, rivaled only by [[Perturabo]] (but Guilliman wasn't an antisocial autistic weirdo, so there's that), which is pretty much one of the only reasons why the [[Imperium of Man]] didn't collapse after the Horus Heresy. He was able to train and equip more than twice as many Marines during the [[Great Crusade]] than any other Legion, and he wrote the [[Codex Astartes]] (still the standard for Space Marine tactics). He is credited with reorganizing the entire governmental and administrative system of the [[Imperium of Man]] (yes, the reorganized Administratum ended up running the galaxy into the ground, but the fact that it's still running at all is a good sign).

However as the Horus Heresy series continues, it is revealed that it was actually [[Malcador the Sigillite]] who had been creating the foundations for the later Imperium. In fact it is continuously being hinted that Guilliman positioned himself to take over the Imperium after the fall of the Emperor, being almost explicitly stated in ''Vengeful Spirit''. whether through good intentions or through sinister means has yet to be revealed. Funnily enough Kor Phaeron, who hated his guts, identified him as the Primarch best suited to succeed his dad, though given the source, that may well be intended as an insult. Despite this, Guilliman claimed that he had no desire to be Emperor and promised his brothers that if the otherwise impassable Ruinstorm abated, he would immediately send his fleet to Terra. That said, the Blood Angels managed to get back to Terra somehow, despite being on the wrong side of it, so it's unknown just how difficult it was to get back.

''Unfortunately'', thanks to 10,000 years of propaganda and exaggeration (and Matt Ward's Codex: Space Marines), Guilliman is ''absolutely perfect'' in every way and treated as ''second only to the Emperor'' through ''the entire Imperium.'' This is incorrect, considering that [[Sebastian Thor]] is actually the main Imperial saint, and [[Sanguinius]] is the primarch most beloved by the common men of the Imperium. Regardless, Guilliman is pretty high on the list and the only Primarch whose body is on public display. This "better than thou" shit is sad and quite paradoxical, since Guilliman himself genuinely recognized [[Lion El'Jonson|some]] [[Horus|Primarchs]] were better than him as leaders. He has sometimes been portrayed as petty or jealous of his brother Primarchs but also intelligent enough to acknowledge his own errors when proved wrong. Far from the "perfect in every aspect" figure Matt Ward promoted, the HH Guilliman is actually a man with a lot of very human weaknesses but possessing the humility to admit them as flaws he must deal with.

[[Fallen Angels|Astelan]], while a prisoner of the [[Dark Angels]] goes into detail explaining how Guilliman was purportedly the ''"greatest"'' of the Primarchs, but only in the context of what the Emperor intended for them. Astelan describes that Guilliman was '''"not the most able-minded, nor as charismatic, and not as physically adept"''' and was the inferior of [[Horus]] in every respect. Although Astelan was also a traitor and a fallen angel, so his word is hardly reliable. His greatness came from the fact that Guilliman never once wavered in dedication and service and created his Space Marines to be incorruptible. Guilliman and his Ultramarines were the perfect <u>sons</u>, not necessarily perfect soldiers. It's also worthy of note that much like [[Rogal Dorn]] and [[Lion El'Jonson]], Guilliman was a possible candidate for the position of warmaster, but was rejected for the same reasons they were: he didn't get along with many of his brothers.

However, contrary to that, He also did a lot of tricky things in [[Horus Heresy]], like that whole [[Imperium Secundus]] thing, and it's popularly theorized that he was bitter that he never got to be '''Warmaster''', which despite his claims that he had no desire to become Emperor, when he appointed the [[High Lords of Terra]] he nominated himself for the seat of '''Lord Commander of the Imperium''' which was essentially "Warmaster" in all but name, and the titular commander of the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces. So claiming that no man should have the power of a Legion, then place himself at the top of the chain of command for all of the [[Space Marine Chapter|Chapters]] that his remaining brothers were left with was a bit hypocritical.

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Or was it?
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It's quite likely that Guilliman's actions in creating the Imperium Secundus, and his later actions during the reformation of the Imperium, are a reference to the Roman practice of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator|Roman Dictatorship]]. A roman dictator was more or less what we think of as a modern dictator, with one key exception. The dictator was given absolute executive and military power over Rome and her holdings in times of crisis, when the gridlock and beaurocratic red tape of roman society got in the way of doing what needed to be done. But as strange as it sounds to our modern minds, dictators were elected to their position, and without exception in all the history of Rome every dictator willingly stepped down and returned power to the senate.

It's highly likely that Guilliman's actions after the emperor's death are a reference to this practice: he set aside the normal moral and legal rules restricting him so that he could restructure the imperium. Despite the fact that he was in the perfect position to assume power over the entire imperium, he relinquished power to the Council of Terra after some sense of stability had returned. This is further supported by how heavily his legion leans on Roman culture, and how much Guilliman himself draws on the famous generals of Rome (Julius and Augustus Caesar, Cininatus, etc).</div></div>

So with that being said, he was no more flawless than the other Primarchs; Even during the Great Crusade, while he was considered to be one of the greatest strategists in the entire Imperium, he was defeated in combat simulations by [[Corax]] of the [[Raven Guard]], having to be specifically taught that there is no fixed dividing line between non-combatants and soldiers when people are defending their homes; that under-strength units should not be ruled out as ineffective; and that small units of adaptable troops can be wielded with just as much effect as larger battalions and chapters. Furthermore, Guilliman stuck closely to his tried and true methods, refusing to give credit to what he considered "unconventional" tactics, pissing off many other Primarchs, most notably [[Alpharius]]. Even though he would later be shown by his own men how effective such unconventional guerrilla tactics would be and would include then in his codex.

Therefore while he was certainly the Primarch with the greatest mental capacity and adaptability, he was apparently incapable of lateral thinking and would fail to see the flaws in his methods until explicitly shown the error of his ways. ( which certainly indicates that he was definitely not the primarch with the greatest mental capacity or adaptability. Alpharius and Magnus come to mind or even Corax or the Lion whos Legion literally did it all.) Also, though the Codex Astartes undoubtedly did a lot of good things like making sure each chapter could feasibly fight under most conditions no matter their heritage or preference, forcing all of his brothers to split their Legions into [[Codex Astartes|Chapters]] risked a second galactic civil war.

Additionally, although it isn't (entirely) his fault, Guilliman is usually blamed for turning the Ultramarines into such faggots. The Codex is now basically treated as infallible by the Ultramarines ''(at least the more faggot-y ones; [[Captain Titus|there's at least some who take it with a grain of salt and realize where its strengths and weaknesses lie]])''. even though he '''specifically said''' that the [[Codex Astartes]] should not be treated as a bible to be followed unerringly... Except for the organizational parts, which he forced on his brothers as part of the post-Heresy reforms and were upheld by the High Lords of Terra as a means of keeping the Astartes in check.

Recently he's been increasingly entrusted to the care of the Mighty [[Dan Abnett]] and his faggot level is dropping rapidly. Now, Guilliman isn't portrayed as a power armored Sun Tzu, but as a logistical genius, planning planetary conquest in a way that would leave said worlds in a state that could quickly be returned to order and Imperial rule. His high number of compliant worlds is a direct product of this, helped by his Legion's innate tendency towards discipline, hierarchy and monomaniacal fixation on whatever their objective might be.

This adherence toward a rigid chain of command did end up becoming a double-edged sword later on, since when Guilliman was put into stasis the Ultramarines still tried to follow him (thanks to him being the at the top of the chain) and as such started to forget that the Codex Astartes was only meant to be a guideline, as opposed to a definitive text. More importantly, they slowly lost their ability to adapt to new situations, which was their most famed of traits, until the Tyrannic Wars illustrated the need to improvise new strategies when old ones failed them.

Once upon a time, thanks to the rabid fanboying of [[Matt Ward]], most of [[/tg/]] hated him, but many of them have since come around. Still expect people to [[Rage|bitch endlessly]] about how he was an absolute [[Leman Russ|narrow-minded]] [[Lion El'Jonson|hypocritical]] [[Dorn|jerk]], but don't feel bad about it.

Ironically enough, Guilliman has something the Imperium needs even more desperately than new technologies and peace: managerial skills, among the primarchs Guilliman was the only one who actually seemed to be bright enough to understand and strongly insist that no empire, no matter how militarily powerful, could withstand without a good administration, keeping the fiscal balance positive and ensuring the population, not just the armies, have a decent enough standard of living and supply lines, it speaks something of most of the denizens of 4chan that so few of them have ever pointed out this simple fact.

On a side note, he likes Shakespeare's work.

===Suddenly, Forge World!===
[[Image:Girlyman.jpg|400px|thumb|right|[[Dwarfs (Warhammer Fantasy)|Guilliman atop his mighty Oathstone (not seen are the Chapter Serfs who get the honour of carrying him around)! Note how tiny his sword is. Matt Ward does not approve.]]]]
When Tempest came out, it immediately forgot that Guilliman's supposed to be just as heavily flawed as the other Primarchs, in Tempest Guilliman is "a paragon among the Emperor's sons", and that he "is as much a statesman as he is an indefatigable warrior." He's also as just as great a strategist, in addition to being the most level-headed, the quickest to react, the smartest and the most analytical, constantly basing new and better designs off of existing materials, as well as refining battle plans thanks to having a mind that calmly and coldly allows him to analyze everything around him and wonder how various things like his marines, his armour and his weapons could all be improved. He observes what other Primarchs do with their warriors makes them better in his own creations, in doing so (specifically copying Perturabo's Siege Tyrants in the rules) they say he's "proving himself once again the master of all of the myriad disciplines of war." This is further evidenced by his rules below where he's the best Primarch at buffing his army, while as a warrior in a straight-up fight he only loses to Horus and Fulgrim''(not counting [[Lorgar|psychic interference]] or Primarchs with a [[Angron|bit of momentum behind them]])''.

In addition Guilliman's Ultramarines during the Horus Heresy were the most disciplined of all the Space Marines (wrong, as Unremembered Empire pointed out the 1st were more disciplined) as well as the most numerous, the ones who prized intelligence above all to help them formulate the best battle plan, and with the best training/recruitment (also wrong the 1st Legion had Luther who reduced training time for a marine to just 5 years.), not to mention being familiar with the other legions MO's and able to pull them off without any problems which had a lot to do with their rigid chain of command (again this is nonsense, as the raven guard and alpha Legion's M.O.'s were never even attempted by the Ultramarines nor the way that the Vlka Fenryka fought war. If they were capable of that feat they wouldn't have been behind other legions on victories). This goes on to the point that they were considered the biggest threat (before Isstvan) and the book outright states that if the Ultramarines were aware of Horus' rebellion they and their Auxilia would be able to make [[Ultramar|the 500 worlds]] a bastion that by itself, would be able to weather the entire heresy and challenge [[Horus]] for control of the eastern half of the Galaxy. [[Matt Ward|I guess the Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Blood Angels on Terra didn't really try hard enough.]] But to be fair the size of the Legion at the time is nothing new since the Ultramarines have always been described as the Legion with the most recruits and the least casualties long before the Wardian plague begins.

A more generous explanation could be that since the books were written after the Heresy in-universe, it could just be a case of "history is written by the winners" kicking in again, since (rather thankfully) "Everything is canon, not everything is true." Or maybe Matt was secretly brought back for that particular book, which would go quite a long way in explaining all of the Smurf wanking in it. It's likely we'll have to wait until the follow-up book on the Shadow Crusade to determine which of those it is. This doesn't entirely go against 40k's history however, while saying the smurfs and their auxiliaries could take on all of the traitor legions at full strength is undoubtedly complete horseshit, Ultramar was ''always'' considered to have been one of the greatest threats to Horus' rebellion and was the prime reason that the Battle of Calth took place; to get them all in one place and hit them with a surprise attack, and then pin the Ultramarines in place for the duration of the Heresy. The same applies to Guilliman, who has always been considered to have been one of the most intelligent and adaptable of Primarchs, as well as being gifted with his own brilliance.

Thankfully he still retains at least one flaw, that being he has no creative spark. He made Perturabo's Terminators better, but he'd never have made them on his own. He made his own versions of power weapons that were far better than regular power weapons as they were more precise/lethal when in trained hands, yet he could only do that after studying countless designs of regular power weapons. Even his own armour is artificer armour that he improved in ways heavily influenced by what Vulkan and Perturabo have made.

Well, two flaws actually. His assumption that his and therefore Ultramarine nobility and camaraderie will rub off on to other, less forward thinking legions was a direct contributor to his massive losses at the utterly disastrous Battle of Calth. His belief that the Word Bearers and their Militias could be best bros to his troops if only they spent more time, more closely together helped Lorgar's sons be in just the right position to inflict devastating casualties on the XIIIth from the moment of betrayal. Lets be clear, 100,000 Ultramarines were dead (not casualties, but dead) 12 hours after the battle began and by the end of the surface conflict 145,000 of his sons were killed or permanently combat non-effectives. Considering the total Legion strength prior to the slaughter was 250,000, Calth cost the Ultramarines c.60% of their strength and all for the bargain basement cost of 50,000 Word Bearers, though it's worthy of note that the casualty ratios between the two legions were actually pretty similar, as the Word Bearers were at about 125,000 by Calth. Considering that a force with superior wargear (that the Warmaster made sure his traitors had) striking from ambush against a force that's out of position, deliberately striking at the Ultramarine's command structure, something they're quite weak to, with ALL THOSE ADVANTAGES, they only got a 3 to 1 casualty ratio. It is perhaps no surprise that Imperial history records that Guilliman completely lost his temper and cool at Lorgar when the treachery was realized (insert max troll face here), perhaps this was what allowed him to survive immediately afterwards in the hard vacuum of space for 11 hours without his helmet?

On the other side (and that is a good point) Guilliman and the Ultramarines are not as "noblebright" in ''Tempest'' as they can be in other pieces of background. While he promotes meritocracy and progress and refuses to waste any life, Roboute is always described as cold and logical, obsessed with efficiency, and not a kind of crusading philanthropist. FW's Guilliman is first and foremost a statesman and a warlord willing to make the most effective system possible, and ''Tempest'' implies he used a kind of political police of his own (the Vigil Opertii) to silence any opposition in Ultramar. Just like the Imperium does. The only difference with the other Primarchs is Guilliman cannot deny HE is responsible for all the [[1984|authoritarian shit]] happening in HIS private empire. Feel free to think what you want about Guilliman being OP or a Mary Sue, FW still made him more grimdark than before, even if he remains a nice dude by 30k standards.

==Gameplay==
===30K Guilliman===
{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" align="left"
! || Pts || WS || BS || S || T || W || I || A || Ld || Sv
|-
| '''Roboute Guilliman:''' || 400 || 7 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 4+1 || 10 || 2+/4++
|}<br style="clear: both; height: 0px;" /><br>
True to his legion, Roboute Guilliman is fairly average as far as Primarchs go, both in terms of his stats and his points cost, but it's the rules and equipment you really want him for. He and any unit he joins can re-roll failed charge distances, and the Concussive special rule doesn't do shit against him. All Ultramarines in play gain +1 to Ld while he's in play and he also makes Invictarus Suzerains and Legion Terminators troops as long as he's the warlord. Preternatural Strategy can force opponents to re-roll successful attempts at Seize the Initiative while also granting all units from one entry in the Ultramarines army list Implacable Advance, Interceptor, or Tank Hunters if they don't have it already, and by that they do mean entry, not just one unit, so if you selected Legion Predator Strike Armour Squadron to have Tank Hunters then every Legion Predator Strike Armour Squadron in your army will gain the rule. It also buffs his WS by 1 for each round of combat within a challenge after the first one (e.g. he becomes WS8 on the second round and so on), although it resets back to 7 after the challenge is over or if his opponent swaps out for somebody else via something like Glorius Intervention. Finally, Unyielding Will negates all negative leadership modifiers and allows him to re-roll failed Deny the Witch tests. (Funnily enough, this actually makes him a decent counter for Lorgar's psychic faggotry, though it won't help him deny Lorgars' blessings.)

Guilliman's Armor of Reason gives him a 2+/4++ and the ability to re-roll the first invulnerable save he fails in each phase. (Not per turn, per phase.). As for his weapons, he can choose one of two melee weapons to use in any given assault phase: the Gladius Incandor (a Paragon Blade with Shred) and the Hand of Dominion (a S10 AP1 Power Fist with Concussion). Both of them are Specialist weapons, so regardless of which one he picks he still gets an extra attack. Finally, his gun is the Arbitrator, a S6 AP3 combi-bolter with Assault 2 and Rending- which he might as well have left at home for how often it fires it as he has a Cognis Signum to use instead (+1 BS to a unit instead of firing a weapon himself). Overall, he gives out a nice variety of buffs and can really hold his own in a fight while being one of the best tactician characters in the game.

Due to his low mobility and vulnerability to tarpits, he's unlikely to make his points back by [[Mortarion|killing something expensive.]] That said, +1 Ld is a reasonably strong bonus, and the insurance against seizing is good insurance against things going [[Not as planned]]. Also, the sky is the limit with the unit entry buff. Tank Hunting Support Squads or Heavy Weapon Squads sound good to you? How about Rapiers? A Cognis Signum is always nice to have. Capping all this off is that you can run a basically tax-free list by taking the severely broken Suzerains as troops.

Don't forget, this is all for only 125 points more than [[Marneus Calgar|M.A.C. daddy]], further proof of 30k superiority.

====30K Roboute Guilliman VS Other 30K Primarchs====
<div class="toccolours mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="100%">
Primarch fighting, while fun to see, isn't a very competitive thing to do as it'll usually tie up both Primarchs for the entire game without either of them dying. With that in mind this section is all about how Roboute Guilliman fares against other Primarchs mathhammer wise. Please note that all the various abilities, with the exception of Blind, are taken into account (Blind is ignored because it is just too random and unreliable to come into play) and the match-ups assume the Primarchs are the only ones involved in the fighting, so various abilities like Angron's "The Butcher's Nails" and Rampage do not provide any bonuses. Also do note that Preternatural Strategy is taken into account (obviously) so prepare to see even more mathhammer than for the other Primarchs.
<div class="mw-collapsible-content">

* Roboute Guilliman VS Horus
**Horus will use his Talon of Horus (rerollable 3+ is better than flat 2+, and Disabling Strike can counter the slow-burn effect of Preternatural Strategy) and hits 4 times, wounds 3.555 times, 1.778 after saves, then 1.564 for the Armour of Reason and IWND will take that down to 1.231 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times (Gladius), 0.74 wounds after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.407.
**Guilliman loses this fight (Quite appropriately).
**Note: Due to the nature of the fight this match doesn't take into account Preternatural Strategy (Because it is balanced by Disabling Strike). Also do note that after the first few wounds inflicted from Horus, Guilliman will have his S significantly reduced and the Gladius Incandor will become useless. However, Disabling Strike doesn't affect the Hand of Dominion, so Guilliman will still wound Horus on a 2+.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Angron
**Angron Round 1: Angron has Hatred, so on the first turn he will hits 5.333 times, wounds 4.444 times, 2.222 after saves, 2.008 after Armour of Reason re-roll and IWND take it down to 1.675.
**Angron Round 2: Angron hits 4 times, wounds 3.333 times, 1.667 times after saves, 1.453 after re-roll and IWND will take that down to 1.12 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Angron Round 3 and thereafter: Angron hits 3 times, wounds 2.5 times, 1.25 after saves and 1.036 after the re-roll. Then IWND take it down to 0.703.
**Guilliman Round 1/2/3: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 0.926 times after saves and FNP, and IWND will take that down to 0.59 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 4 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 1.234 times after saves and FNP, and IWND will take that down to 0.9 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Unsurprisingly, Guilliman loses this fight in 6 rounds, dying directly before he's able to kill Angron as even though he has an extra wound on Angron, he takes too much damage.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Fulgrim
**Fulgrim Round 1: hits 4.861 times (Fireblade is MC), wounds 3.601 times (Child of Terra Warlord Trait), 1.801 times after the Invuln, 1.582 after the Armour of Reason and IWND will take that down to 1.249 at the start of the next turn.
**Fulgrim Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.714 times, wounds 2.889 times, 1.445 times after the Invuln, 1.226 after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.893 at the start of the next turn.
**Concussed Fulgrim (cannot happen earlier than round 3): Hits 2.708 times, wounds 2.106 times, 1.053 times after the invuln, 0.845 after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.56 wounds.
**Guilliman with Gladius Incandor Round 1/2: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 0.74 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.407 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman with Gladius Incandor Round 3 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 0.988 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.654 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman with Hand of Dominion Round 1/2: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times, 0.694 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.361 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman with Hand of Dominion Round 3 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.777 times, 0.926 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.593 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**An unsurprising loss for Guilliman. If Guilliman chooses to use the Gladius Incandor, Fulgrim will out-damage him in the long run, and if he chooses to concuss Fulgrim, Fulgrim temporarily loses his extra attacks, but Guilliman cannot put out enough damage to keep Fulgrim concussed, meaning Fulgrim gets back up to his normal initiative, gains his extra attacks back, and beats down Guilliman.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Mortarion
**Mortarion hits 2.5 times, wounds 1.666, 0,833 after saves, 0.625 wounds after Armor of Reason, and after IWND it becomes 0.292 wounds.
**Guilliman Round 1: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times, 1.042 after saves, and IWND take it down to 0.486.
**Guilliman Round 2 and after: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.777 times, 1.388 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.833.
**Easy win for Guilliman.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Ferrus
**Ferrus: hits 2.5 times (Forgebreaker and Servo-Harm), wounds 2.083 times, 1.042 after the Invuln, 0.834 times after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.501 at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 1: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times (Hand), 0.694 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.361 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.778 times, 0.926 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.593 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman wins this fight.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Konrad Curze
**Curze Round 1: hits 4 times, wounds 3 times, 1.5 times after the Invuln, 1.286 times after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.953 at the start of the next turn.
**Curze Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3 times, wounds 2.25 times, 1.125 times after the Invuln, 0.911 times after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.578 at the start of the next turn
**Guilliman Round 1/2: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 1.111 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.778 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 3 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 1.481 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 1.148 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman easily wins this fight.
**Note: Konrad could attempt to even the odds with Hit and Run, negating Preternatural Strategy while gaining the +1 attack for the charge (and sniping some wounds with his knives), but so long as Guilliman uses his power fist by the second round of combat Curze will be locked to initiative 1 and will be dead before it's guaranteed he'll be able to leave combat.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Vulkan
**Vulkan hits 2 times, wounds 1.667 times, 0.833 times after saves, 0.633 times after Armour of Reason and IWND will take that down to 0.3.
**Guilliman Round 1: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times, 0.694 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.139 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.778 times, 0.926 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.37 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**A long as fuck fight, but Guilliman takes the win 'cause he does marginally more damage.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Lorgar
**Lorgar hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times, 1.042 times after the Invuln, 0.834 after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.501.
**Guilliman Round 1: hits 2.778 times, wounds 1.85 times, 0.926 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.593 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 1.48 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 1.15 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Even with forcing Guilliman to re-roll 5's and 6's for the first round Lorgar will still lose.
**Note: this doesn't take into account Psychic Powers and with Precognition on Lorgar will easily win. Guilliman's rerollable DtW doesn't do shit, as it only works against witchfires and maledictions, while Lorgar's most powerful spells are blessings.

*Roboute Guilliman VS Perturabo
**Perturabo Round 1: hits 2.667 times, wounds 2.222 times, 1.111 times after the Invuln, 0.911 times after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.578.
**Perturabo Round 2 and thereafter: hits 2 times, wounds 1.667 times, 0.833 times after the Invuln, 0.633 after Armour of Reason and IWND will take that down to 0.3.
**Guilliman Round 1/2: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 0.74 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.407 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 3 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 0.988 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.654 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Again, Guilliman wins pretty safely. Starting to see a trend here.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Alpharius
**Alpharius hits 2.917 times and wounds 1.702 times (Remember he has Preferred Enemy), 0.851 wounds after the Invuln, 0.643 after Armour of Reason and IWND will take that down to 0.31 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 1: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 1.111 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.778 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 1.482 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 1.148 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman wins really easily, as the damage Alpharius does is almost irrelevant, thus making the claim that he personally killed the lord of the Alpha Legion actually believable...

* Roboute Guilliman VS Rogal Dorn
**Dorn Round 1: hits 2.666 times, wounds 2 times, 1 time after the Invuln, 0.8 wounds after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.467 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Dorn Round 2 and thereafter: hits 2 times, wounds 1.5 times, 0.75 wounds after the Invuln, 0.55 after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.217 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 1/2: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 1.111 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.778 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 3 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 1.482 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 1.148 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman easily wins this fight, taking a lot less damage and dishing out more.
**Note: Dorn doesn't use Sundering Blow because he would actually cause less damage with it.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Corvus Corax
**Corvus hits 4 times (Scourge)/3 times (Shadow-walk), wounds 3 times (Scourge)/2.25 times (Shadow-walk), causing 1.5 wounds (Scourge)/1.125 wounds (Shadow-walk) after the Invuln which drop down to 1.286 (Scourge)/0.911 (Shadow-walk) and IWND will take that down to 0.953 (Scourge)/0.578 (Shadow-walk) wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 1: 2.5/1.666 times, wounds 2.0833/1.389 times, 1.389/0.926 wounds after saves and 1.055/0.593 wounds after IWND.
**Guilliman Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.333/2.5 times, wounds 2.963/2.083 times, 1.975/1.389 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 1.642/1.055 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman easily wins this fight
**Note: Like Curze, Corax could try to use Hit and Run to even the odds, having even more bonus than Curze thanks to his uber-Furious Charge, but unlike Curze it wouldn't work for too long as the second time they fight (whether Corax charges or Guilliman catches him) Guilliman will have him concussed (He's using his fist for a reason) for the rest of the fight and will kill him before Corax can escape again, thus making the strategy not viable against Papa Smurf.

* Roboute Guilliman vs. Leman Russ
** Leman Round 1 & 2 (using the Axe of Helwinter): Hits 4.886 times, wounds 4.071 times, 2.035 after the Invuln, 1.817 after the re-roll with IWND taking that down to 1.484 at the start of the next turn.
** Leman Round 3 and on (using the Axe of Helwinter): Hits 3.719 times, wounds 3.099 times, 1.55 after the Invuln, 1.331 after the re-roll with IWND taking that down to 0.998 at the start of the next turn.
** Roboute Round 1 and Round 4+ (using the Hand of Dominion): Hits 1.667 times, wounds 1.389 times, 0.695 wounds after saves, and IWND will take that down to 0.362 wounds at the start of the next turn.
** Roboute Round 2 & 3: Hits 0.833, wounds 0.694 times, 0.3472 wounds after saves, and IWND will take that down to 0.014 wounds at the start of the next turn.
** Result: It's not even a challenge. Leman Russ kills Rowboat Girlyman almost effortlessly. What do you expect from trying to go up against The Emperor's Executioner(of primarchs). That furry fucker was designed from the ground up to kill every primarch in the entire game.

* TL;DR version: Surprisingly, despite being one the best army buffers amongst Primarchs and his generally not outstanding (for a Primarch) stats, Guilliman is actually a beast in 1 on 1 fights if they drag on long enough, beating all but the most specialised Primarchs and mathematically losing only to Horus, Angron, Fulgrim and Leman Russ. Truth is that he's very well balanced with a choice of good weapons for offense, a decent defense and an extra ability that benefits both. He loses when his more balls out brothers just dump damage on him but when he has the chance to let his strategy impact the fight he'll typically win. He'll likely fall down the rankings some more when Sanguinius and the Lion step onto the field but with his army buffs he'll remain a great choice.
</div></div>

===40K Guilliman===
[[Matt Ward]].
{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" align="left"
! || Pts || WS || BS || S || T || W || I || A || Ld || Sv
|-
| '''Roboute Guilliman:''' || 350 || 9 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 10 || 2+/3++
|}<br style="clear: both; height: 0px;" /><br>
[[Image:GUILLIMAN2017.jpg|400px|thumb|right|[[Matt Ward]] is having an orgasm right now... as are many [[Ultramarines]] players. [[Rape|Suffice to say, he is a unstoppable force of undiluted assfuckery. Be afraid. Be very afraid.]]]]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoLs0V8T5AA ''We can rebuild him. We have the technology...'']

''"Why do I still live? What more do you want from me? I gave everything I had to you, to them. Look what they have made of our dream. This bloated, rotten carcass of an empire is driven not by reason and hope, but by fear, hate and ignorance. Better that we had all burned in the fire of Horus' ambition than lived to see this."'' <br>
― Guilliman is back, and he wants to know what the fuck went so wrong with the Imperium.

But as for now, the hot topic is that HE'S BACK, in plastic, and a part of a "Triumvirate" of sorts with him, Cypher, and a Grey Knight Grand Master named Voldus. The miniature itself looks somewhat cartoony, and has new armour courtesy of [[Belisarius Cawl]], a Power Fist with a built-in version of his old Bolter (seems Cawl couldn't spring for the Ad-Mech's good stuff), a life support system, and the option of a rather awesome helmet for maximum head protection (technically not needed at all since he fights Magnus on the moon, his suit gets breached and he fights without air again). Bonus points as he is also carrying the Blazing Sword, officially stated to be one of The Big E's weapons. Regardless, the general trend is that he looks really good. Yes, we're still talking about Guilliman. The only real complaint people have is how splay legged he is and how he looks like a Thousand Son with omegas.

Also, the GW community site seems to imply that you can change his two heads on the fly, meaning you can possibly paint and use both of them without committing to either one.

Strangely, the three Chaos Gods who are made of stuff other than rage and war aren't fazed or angry he's back; if anything they seem to view him as an opportunity. Slaanesh wants to corrupt him, Nurgle wants him as a plaything, and Tzeentch <s>wants to manipulate</s> is already trying to manipulate him. Naturally, Khorne reacted to this news as he always does, by giving his best queen of hearts impression and demanding Guilliman's head. Oddly enough, while we get reactions from Fulgrim, Mortarion, and Magnus (the former two being about as happy as Khorne while Magnus finds it funny), Angron's suspiciously absent, while Lorgar and Perturabo either didn't notice or didn't care. Alpharius didn't react either, probably because he's too busy making us wonder if he is dead or not.

He has almost the same statline he has in 30k with a significant buff to his weapon skill and a slightly smaller one to his attacks, but his special rules and wargear are slightly different. The comparison follows.
*He loses: ''It Will Not Die'', ''Type: Infantry (Character)'', ''Independent Character'', ''Master of the Legion''.
*He keeps: ''Adamantium Will'', ''Eternal Warrior'', ''Fear'', ''Fearless'', ''Fleet'', ''Precision Shots'', ''Precision Strikes'',
*[[Rape|He gains:]] ''Type: Monstrous Creature (Character) (and all associated rules)'', ''Feel No Pain'', ''Preferred Enemy (Chaos)'', ''Absolute Mastery (which gives him all 6 Command Traits if he's the Warlord)'', ''Lord Commander of the Imperium (all Armies of the Imperium can re-roll all failed morale, pinning, and fear tests while Guilliman is on the battlefield)'', ''Primarch of the XIII Legion (an extra copy of each Combat Doctrine that affects all Ultramarines models in your army)'', ''Unyielding Will (his leadership is not subject to any negative modifiers of any kind along with re-rolling failed Deny the Witch tests)''.

Guilliman's Armor of Fate gives him a 2+/3++. The improved invulnerable save is nice, but the gimmick is that Guilliman can [[Commissar Yarrick|come back from the dead]]...half the time, with D3 wounds restored. THE EMPEROR'S FLAMING SWORD is the freaking '''MURDERSWORD''' to end them all. He attacks at S10 AP1 (but rule-wise uses both Hand of Dominion and The Emperor's Sword in the same profile, so yeah, Avatar will totally kick his ass) with Armourbane, Concussive, and Soul Blaze. The sword's 2 unique rules are ''The Emperor's Touch'': if Guilliman rolls a 6 to hit it becomes a Destroyer attack, and ''Whirling Flame'': he can sacrifice 6 attacks to hit every enemy model within 1" of him. His relic Power Fist (cannot be used separately) '''Hand of Dominion''' comes with the underslung Arbitrator, which is stronger than the 30k variant. It's now 24" S6 AP2 Heavy 3 (made irrelevant by Relentless), and Rending. - you don't bring him because of his dakka, you bring him for his special rules support.

In all, he's a bit of a mix between Marneus Calgar and Saint Celestine in that he gives your army a decent strategic edge with army-wide Ld re-rolls, Warlord traits, and the potential to revive himself. He's also the best non-Forgeworld/Superheavy melee fighter the Imperium has right now. Do not send him up against the Avatar of Khaine though, since Soul Blaze will nullify all of his attacks. .

On the downside he no longer can hide in squads or use non-superheavy transports, which severely limits his mobility and survivability compared to his 30k version. D-strength is particularly nasty because of his inability to hide, doubly so since there's much more D on the table in 40k (it's good for Guilly he's allied with the [[Eldar|guys who have it flying out of their asses]]).

Fortunately GW went out of their way to remedy this obvious weakness. A new formation created for the new Ultramarines detachment called the Victrix Guard allows for the models in the formation to LOS to Guilliman, so this will give him plenty of staying power. Note that Guilliman need not be in the same formation as the Victrix Guard for this, should that come up (e.g. if you are allying him in as part of his Triumvirate). This however does nothing to fix his low mobility and the lack of transport, as the only transports he can get use the same slot he occupies - Lord of War - which you can have only ''one'' of. There are two ways around this, but it will be understandably very costly. Double CAD (Tax of 2 more troops and an HQ on top of that LoW? Nuts!), or Unbound.
At least he's 50 points less than 30k Guilliman. Who can at least [[rape|hang out with his Terminator/Fulmentarus/Suzerain]] [[This Guy|buddies]] in a [[Spartan Assault Tank]], [[Thunderhawk]] or [[Mastodon]] and not foot slog it like some Pleb. Honor Guard are not bad, but are not as good as his 30k bodyguards or [[Anal circumference|LOW Transports]]. At least he can beat almost all the 30k Primarchs in a fight. [[Deathstar|If he somehow makes it through their Transports and Deathstar Tarpits.]] Not even his Warlord Traits plus Sternguard and AP2 Power Weapons are going to help much against a vehicle filled to the brim with Terminators or Artificer Armor.

{{Primarchs}}

[[Category:Imperial]]

Roboute Guilliman

2017-06-12T09:21:27Z

2001:8003:2A52:AA00:7952:982E:5B92:3775: /* 41st millennium / Gathering Storm */

[[File:Robute_Guilliman.jpg|450px|thumb|right|I'm surrounded by plebians.]]
''"[[Horus|Leadership is not magnetic personality]], [[Fulgrim|that can just as well be a glib tongue]]. [[Vulkan|It is not "making friends ]][[Lorgar|and influencing people]]", that is flattery. Leadership is lifting a person's vision to higher sights, the raising of a person's performance to a higher standard, the building of a personality beyond its normal limitations."''<br>
- Peter F. Drucker

''"Si vis pacem, para bellum. If you want peace, prepare for war."''<br>
- Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus

'''Roboute Guilliman''' ("Row-BOOT-ay" "GILL-uh-man" ɹəʊ-buːt-eɪ ɡɪl-ə-mæn) is the Primarch of the [[Ultramarines]], and a man with a staggering collection of nicknames, including but not limited to: Rowboat Girlyman, Roman Gorillaman, Rawbutt Girlyman, Robobutt Gigatan, Rampant Gullytan, Robot Gigglytan, Raw-Rigged Ginger-Fan, Robot Gulliver, Robo Git, Robust Gilligan, Robit Ghillie Suit, Reboot Gigabyte, Robert Gullible, Roboot Girlymayne, Robot Gorillaman, Robooty Guillotine, Roman Gogillian, Rusty the Gullible, R. Gooliman Esq. Rowyourboat Downthestreamlyman (and any and every combination of the above), Julius Caesar ''in SPESS'', Big Blue Daddy, Papa Ultra Smurf, Big Bobby G, Space Marine Jame Bond or High Lord Douchebag and Ward's Ever Chosen Robart. He's also quite possibly the single most [[skub]] person in the setting, thanks to him being depicted as a total ungodly [[Mary Sue]] in many older sources, and being depicted as quite likable and level headed in others. The dislike for him is often based more around his legacy and the reception (or lack there of) of a [[Codex Astartes|certain infamous book]], although he did have a cold, imperious streak to his personality that occasionally caused friction between his brothers and himself, most famously being partially responsible for turning [[Alpharius]] to chaos. [[Omegon|Maybe]]. It's [[Iron Snakes|hard to tell]].

Apparently he and [[Sigmar]] are behind the sudden surge of good policies done by [[Games Workshop|GeeDubs]].

==History==
===Early Life===
Unlike most worlds that the other Primarchs landed on, Macragge was a pretty great place to live. Guilliman was found by a politician while they were on a hunting trip. Konor, the man who took him in, was a pretty cool dude, he advocated helping the common man and reforms that would make the world a meritocracy. These were a major influence on Roboute and stayed with him throughout his life. It also says something that Konor's seneschal, Tarasha Euten, was effectively Guilliman's surrogate mother, making him one of the only Primarchs to have a conventional family, [[Butthurt|a fact that twisted Konrad Curze's nipples to no end (which goes double when she tells him to go fuck himself)]].

One day while Roboute was coming back after fighting the Macragge's version of the Gauls, he found his home in disarray. Konor was the victim of some Roman politics. The other co-ruler, Gallan, was pissed off at all these reforms and so just sent his army to rape, pillage and burn. Seeing his once peaceful home burning, neighbors looting and killing each other; left the second major impact on Roboute and the most likely source of why he was always so anal about keeping things in order.

After gutting Gallan and restoring order, Roboute worked to make his father's dream a reality. This was the third major impact on his life: though he claimed that Gallan's death was justice, Guilliman came to realize that it was in fact vengeance, and worked to master his emotional self-control. By the time the [[Emperor]] reached Macragge, Roboute had ruled for five years and turned the world into a place where you had to earn your place, not just be born, like what his father wanted.

===Great Crusade and Horus Heresy===
[[File:Know No Fear huge.jpg|400px|thumb|right|''"Lorgar of Colchis. You may consider the following. One: I entirely withdraw my previous offer of solemn ceasefire. It is cancelled, and will not be made again, to you or to any other of your motherless bastards. Two: you are no longer any brother of mine. I will find you, I will kill you, and I will hurl your toxic corpse into hell’s mouth."'' - Roboute Guilliman, channeling Bryan Mills.]]
Guilliman put to use his skills as a tactician and strategist to fight in his Father's crusade, preferring to form battle plans rather than actually participate in the fighting himself though he still did his fair share of Xeno-killing. In the hopes of passing down some of his strategic expertise, he worked very hard to turn the Ultramarines into an army of thinkers. His primary rule as a commander was "Information is victory", emphasizing that Space Marines needed theoretical knowledge and practical experience, in other words, a sound understanding of the tactical situation and a means to achieve their objective. Given that battle plans proved to be the first casualty, Guilliman soon realized that he would need to refine his own strategies even as he codified them, lest they fall apart in the chaos of warfare. In spite of that, with over 250,000 legionaries, he managed to achieve compliance on the highest number of worlds during the [[Great Crusade]], but was surpassed in ''military'' victories not only by the [[Luna Wolves]], but by [[Space Wolves]] and [[Dark Angels]] as well. Meaning he was either a good diplomat or his crusade encountered much more peaceful human societies not being mutants than average one. Or both. The planets were also model military worlds, and the Ultramarines would not leave until a modern [[Planetary Defence Force]] was established. He really should've been put jointly in charge of administration post-Ullanor, which would've made premature, excessive taxation of newly integrated worlds a lot easier to avoid (and therefore fewer worlds would have joined Horus' rebellion). Or probably not: after all, Guilliman didn't change a thing on Nuceria, a beautiful feudal world of charming people enjoying slaves and pit fights and slaves fighting in pits (not to say they were fucking responsible for the mess Angron turned into) after incorporating it in his empire; it was of no concern to Robaut, the only thing he cared about was resources and taxes arriving in time. So while central worlds of Ultramar prospered, provinces were a whole lot shitty place to live up to the point populace ''didn't know who Guilliman is'' (and I'm not making it up, Lion spits this information in Roboute's face in "Unremembered Empire").

When civil war broke out, Guilliman was tricked into taking most of his Legion to Calth for a joint Ultramarines/[[Word Bearers]] engagement. While most of his Chapter Masters believed it was just Horus flexing his muscle, Guilliman realized it was partly political: when the Emperor of Mankind rebuked [[Lorgar|Lorgar Aurelian]] for spreading the ''Lectitio Divinatatus'', he ordered the Ultramarines to burn Monarchia, capital city of Khur, as an example of what would happen to those who continued to defy the [[Imperial Truth]]. Guilliman carried out his orders and didn't show Lorgar any sympathy, but privately confided to some of his officers his discomfort in doing so, feeling that the total humiliation would irreparably damage relations between the XIII and XVII Legions. Guilliman saw this as a chance to mend fences and forge friendships the old fashioned way: by getting Space Marines to kill Orks. Unfortunately, Horus and Lorgar used the Calth muster to kill nearly half the Legion in a surprise attack. When he found out Lorgar's treachery he personally declared to hunt Lorgar down and kill him, only to be attacked by some sort of [[Daemon]]ic proxy and voided onto his flagship. Guilliman did what any other pissed off Primarch would do: go on a rampage against Word Bearers trying to board the ''Macragge's Honour'' by punching them to death. In near vacuum. Without a helmet]]. ''For half an hour.'' ([[Dan Abnett]] is still pretty proud of that scene). After the Battle of Calth, Guilliman had to contend with the Shadow Crusade, as Lorgar and Angron razed 26 of Ultramar's worlds with their main fleet, and who knows how many with the splinter fleets.

After seeing off the Shadow Crusade, Guilliman decided that if his father could not be saved, His ideals would be, setting up a new government called [[Imperium Secundus]], a second Imperium of Man which would reject Horus's alliance with [[Chaos]]. Although potentially traitorous, Guilliman's motives at least ''appeared'' sincere, he made a big hoohah about not taking the throne himself, since he would look like a Tyrant if he did. Fortunately/Unfortunately, [[Lion El'Jonson|The Lion]] arrived at Macragge and didn't like [[heresy|where it was heading]]. Neither brother trusted the other with the job of ruling the next Imperium, so [[Sanguinius]] got the job only to settle the matter between the two and was declared regent of the Imperium in the Emperor's absence, which meant fuck all because he promptly got murdered by Horus in the battle of Terra.

Whatever his intentions, Guilliman led over one hundred thousand Ultramarines to Terra with the [[Dark Angels]] and the [[Space Wolves]], intent on relieving the [[Blood Angels]], [[Imperial Fists]], and [[White Scars]] defending the throneworld. Learning about this and knowing that he could not sustain the assault on Terra anymore once the bulk of the loyalist forces came into the fight, Horus lowered the void shields upon the ''Vengeful Spirit'' in an all-or-nothing gambit to win the war by killing the Emprah in a duel. By one collosal fuckup or another, the vastly superior relieving force DIDN'T crush the beleaguered traitor forces. The traitor legions fled Terra, the scouring kicked off, the Guilliman anticlimactically got stabbed in the neck by [[Fulgrim]] and the resulting poisoning had him sitting on a stasis throne for the better part of 10,000 years.

===41st millennium / Gathering Storm===
[[File:16999239_340497286345256_3126583543407667659_n.jpg|400px|right|thumb|Our [[Spiritual Liege]] about to give [[Skarbrand]] a [[Sanguinius]]-style head chopping.]]
:''We shall give the humans a demigod. A king reborn with a deathly blade.'' - Prince [[Yriel]].

As we know, after being poisoned by Fulgrim, Guilliman was put into stasis. A popular rumor was that he was slowly healing, though that would be impossible in stasis. Eventually, after a kiss from [[Yvraine]] and a nice mekadendrite massage from [[Belisarius Cawl|Cawl]], he feels better. He plays a major role in the third Gathering Storm book. That's right; Gorillaman is back! And in plastic! Somebody call Fulgrim, he'll be pissed! (Spoiler alert. He is really, really pissed. So is Mortarion. Magnus had a chuckle though.)

Also, it seems that [[Saint Celestine]] and Inquisitor Greyfax have convinced Roboute to tolerate the [[Ecclesiarchy]] (for now anyway). Suffice to say, he was <u>'''NOT'''</u> pleased with the Emperor-centered state religion that sprung up while he was asleep (though it's their fundamentalism and reverence of the Emperor that Guilliman has issues with, not so much theism and religion itself; note his acceptance of the Adeptus Mechanicus) though after a bit and knowing its use he works the Imperial Faith into one of his speeches, even though it leaves a bad taste in his mouth.

Essentially, after Roboute was resurrected, he proceeds to wipe out an entire horde of veteran chaos marines without taking a single scratch [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atxYe-nOa9w (there is a scene where he one-punches a Chaos Terminator through a bronze and marble column)], then he immediately took command of the local imperial forces and used his [[Tactical genius|tactical genius]] to inspire the combined forces of Chaos to simultaneously shit themselves. Within a month, Girlyman routed the entire invading Chaos force on Macragge in a series of battles and heroic duels worthy of any primarch. Once Macragge is liberated, Papa Smurf then looked to liberate the rest of the Macragge system, this time with help from the Primogenitor Chapters, the [[Dark Angels]], [[Space Wolves]], [[White Scars]], a [[Sisters of Battle]] army, the remaining [[Black Templars]], more [[Imperial Guard|Guardsmen]], a ship containing an entire [[Imperial Knight|Knight Household]], an entire [[Imperial Navy]] battlegroup, and the [[Mechanicus]] with an entire [[Titan|Titan Legion]] backing them. He also declares the independent sovereignty of the five hundred worlds null and void, assuming direct control over his former territories. [[Rape|There was no kill like overkill.]]

During his coronation as uber-boss of Ultramar, a fragment of [[Fulgrim]] possessing a planetary governor infiltrated the many, many pilgrims and dignitaries who had shown up to verify the Primarch's resurrection, and offered him a golden wreath to wear. The wreath was cursed to show Guilliman all his potential glories and lead him to the embrace of Slaanesh. When he saw through the deception and ordered the infiltrator slain, Fulgrim promised that Guilliman would never take any satisfaction from his victories ever again. Which kind of reinforces the notion that Fulgrim is beyond [[Butthurt]] that he did not kill Papa Smurf.

Later, [[Nurgle]] inflicted a plague on Ultramar called '''The Sorrows/Weeping Plague''' that spread via insects and caused its victims' eyes to rot out. However, the only known cure for the disease was to be admitted to the presence of Guilliman himself. Realising that it was a devious trick to play on the Primarch's compassion and contain Guilliman in Ultramar, he declared that he would not repeat the mistake of [[Imperium Secundus|defending his own realm while the rest of he galaxy burned]] and needed to go to Terra for the [[Greater_Good|Greater Good]] of the Imperium, and left his Apothecaries to try and find a cure.

After Robby G has finished his job in ousting [[Chaos]] from Ultramar, the Ynnari bid their farewell, as they have other psychic mumbo-jumbo to do elsewhere. Roboute and Yvraine said their goodbyes, Roboute said that he is in debt to Yvraine for bringing him back to life and Yvraine telling Roboute to stay safe. Although in all honesty the respect between the two is interesting, because it shows two historically opposed forces allying rather civilly to work towards a common goal, showing that Geedubs might be going a bit [[Warhammer Fantasy Battles|old-school]] with this, having the (somewhat) less evil factions uniting against chaos, tempering the Grimderp of the setting with a little pragmatism, and who better to do that than Mr. Practicality and and the world's most morally flexible Eldar?

[[File:YvraineXGuilliman.png|300px|left|thumb|[[Extra Heresy|HERESY TO THE EXTREME!]]]]
It is known that while heading to Terra on ''Macragge's Honour'', the Thousand Sons transport him into the Maelstrom, where a warband of [[Red Corsairs]] and daemons led by [[Kairos Fateweaver]] attack him and his allies. Kairos manages to "bind Guilliman in chains of his own guilt, anger, and disappointment" (kinky) and toss him into a cell on a [[Blackstone Fortress]], which the Red Corsairs apparently got from Abbadon as a gift in exchange for their loyalty. However, his relief comes in the form of none other than '''[[Cypher]]''' who has been led to Guilliman by the [[Harlequins]] and a bunch of [[Khorne|Khornate]] daemons led by [[Skarbrand]] assaulting the Blackstone Fortress when Kairos insisted on keeping Guilliman alive for future plans. Cypher makes a deal with Guilliman, freeing him and the crusader army from bondage and offering the [[Fallen Angels]]' support in exchange for a free pass to Terra and the Imperial Throne Room to fulfill his destiny. After fighting their way through an army of daemons and escaping through the webway, they are pursued by the [[Thousand Sons]] but fight their way through to Luna and continue the battle on Terra's doorstep, and eventually Guilliman winds up having a duel with [[Magnus]] himself. Guilliman looks to be losing the fight until he gets saved by the [[Sisters of Silence]], supported by the [[Imperial Fists]] and the [[Adeptus Custodes]], who drop in to save the day. When he finally arrives on Terra, Guilliman has a sudden, dreadful epiphany after seeing Cypher's sword and then proceeds to retcon his deal by getting Cypher arrested by the Custodians before he could see the Emperor ''(though Cypher, being Cypher, immediately escapes, but is shown to have a particular bad case of [[Not_as_planned|butthurt]], first time in 40k history!)''. Given how honorable Guilliman is, it ''must'' be something bad if he would resort to backing out on his word.

Guilliman then gets an audience with the Emperor behind closed doors, at which point Big E presumably said, "I know that [[Imperium Secundus|last time you went Empire Building]] I got really mad at you and all, but uh... I sorta need you to do some Empire Building." When Guilliman emerged, he would say he got all the enlightenment he needed and then declares himself '''Lord Commander of the Imperium''' ''(his old job)'' before forcibly deposing some [[High Lords of Terra|High Lords]] he doesn't like and replacing them. Whilst his deposing of some of the High Lords may seem unnecessary given the desperate/fragile state of the Imperium, do take note that Guilliman is a meritocrat and an administrator first and foremost, so if anyone can save the Administratum and the Imperial Senate, it's him. Thus him rearranging the High Lords is perfectly in character as the High Lords have been repeatedly established as being almost entirely self-serving individuals who are incompetent at best and utterly uninterested in anything other than expanding their personal power at worst- in short, everything Guilliman is not. If anything, it would be even more out of character for Guilliman to just look the other way given their (lack of) overall performance.

[[Tl;dr]], Robby came, he saw, and he gave the entire Chaos Space Marines an [[Anal circumference|anal pounding]] like no other. And now he has to make the entire Imperium get its shit together.

===8th Edition===
To stem the tide of traitors, xenos, and Chaos, Roboute Guilliman declared the Indomitus Crusade against the enemies of the Imperium. In order to accomplish this, he unveiled the [[Primaris Marines]], a project 10,000 years in the making to create a superior Space Marine. Between battles, he's also begun to compose a (relatively) accurate history of the Imperium of Man (much to the Inquisition's annoyance since no sane Inquisitor would say 'no' to a Primarch, let alone the regent of the Imperium). The Crusade lasted about a century; while it was able to drive the forces of Chaos away from some of their new holdings, even Gulliman knew that it was only enough to stabilize the Imperium in its current state.

The Dark Imperium novel has portrayed him as having become far more cynical over the events of the Indominus Crusade, in no small part due to frequently butting heads with the Inquisition and the nobility, who saw Guilliman's reforms as a threat to their personal power. While he still believes in the Emperor's ideals, his belief in the Imperial Truth has been shaken; though he knows the Emepror is not quite human any longer, he has noted that even if Emps is a god something as cold and callous as him doesn't deserve worship in the first place. According to Guilliman, when he met with the Emperor, the latter treated him as little more than a favorite tool that had only just been recovered, as opposed to being the last of his loyal sons.

As of now, Big Bobby G is splitting his time between his history work, preventing the Imperium's appalling situation from getting worse, and writing the '''Codex Imperialis''' which is basically the [[Codex Astartes]] on civil society and good governance. The compilation of the Imperium's history is just one part of the new Codex which is to fix the semi-functioning clusterfuck that is the Imperial bureaucracy. He hopes that if or when he dies for good, his successors will use it for guidance rather than going with the head-up-ass approach they've taken in the past.

==Personality==
Roboute Guilliman is a mix of the classical patrician and the archetypal virtuous politician. He's studied, efficient, extremely intelligent even when compared to his own demigod brothers, and morally resolute. He values merit and results over birth or flattery, and he emphasizes in his troops that information is victory, that a sound grasp of theory and a strong ability for the practical is necessary in resolving all problems. He's also rather tolerant of different moods and mentalities, so long as they still serve the Imperium's goals. The barbarous overtones of the [[Space Wolves]], the standoffish eccentricities of the [[White Scars]], even quiet religious practices on his own world, these things never bothered him. After all, the Ultramarines had clearly demonstrated the superior merit of their ways, and those ways would rub off on the more eccentric factions of the Imperium over time, right? Call it faith and trust, call it arrogance and presumption, but Guilliman genuinely believed that he controlled the most disciplined, civilized peoples and armies within the Imperium, and he thought his way was best, but contrary to what many think of him he didn't go out of his way to force his ways on others, he simply made all his writings and tactics available to all his brothers, and told his men to be at their best when fighting alongside the other factions. He only ever criticized or scolded when the circumstances seemed extreme, such as Alpharius's unnecessary targeting of enemy civilian populations to damage morale, or Perterabo's wasteful decimation of his own legion. This attitude was likely the reason Guilliman was passed over for the role of Warmaster, as he didn't get along well with many of his brothers, counting only [[Rogal Dorn]], [[Sanguinius]], [[Horus]], [[Ferrus Manus]], and [[Vulkan]] as friends, though he did have a sincere admiration and respect for [[Leman Russ]] and [[Jaghatai Khan]]. He also saw a potential for common ground with Lorgar, but that potential was never explored because of... [[Heresy|Reasons]].

Guilliman was also an organizational savant unmatched in all the galaxy. He was known to calculate logistical information and strategies far faster than the mechanicum's best logic engines, planning out entire planetary invasions in his mind in moments, a feat only matched by his brother the Lion. Though many of his brothers were godly tacticians, Guilliman uniquely focused on what came after the war: how the world could be used, improved, colonized, uplifted. Guilliman insisted on ensuring that any populated world the Ultramarines took was left with working infrastructure, an able and trained PDF, and a decent quality of life for civilian populations. This cold calculation often bled into his personal life however. The best example of this might be his dealings with [[Lorgar]]. After the Ultramarines were used by the Emperor to sanction the Word Bearers, Guilliman privately admitted to some of his officers that he sincerely regretted that it had happened that way, being uncomfortable censuring his brother that way, and fearing that the damage in relations it caused between the XIII and the XVII would be permanent. After all, there was much potential for kinship between Lorgar and Guilliman, and their legions. What legions were more devoted to the Emperor than those two? Which brothers thought most of the future, of what comes after the conquest? The sudden void of lost potential between the legions was tragic. So what did Guilliman do? Did he seek out his brother later to make amends? Did he have a quiet meeting with his brother to confess his discomfort and seek reconciliation? Send a nice gift basket perhaps? No. Guilliman set up a formal, impersonal meeting between the two of them, alongside their captains, retinues, and aides. [[FAIL|Forty. Years. Later.]] By that time it was much too late.

Though above his genius, above his skills as an administrator and a statesman, Guilliman's most noteworthy characteristic is probably being one of the few well adjusted, sensible people in the entire freaking galaxy. He encouraged his sons to diversify their interests in combat, not to [[Emperor's Children|art]] or [[Blood Angels|fine]] [[Salamanders|crafts]], but to governance and law, city planning and infrastructure. He was a pragmatist, and was well aware of the need for his legion to be useful outside of war, knowing full well what would have to happen to [[World Eaters|some]] [[Night Lords|legions]] when the wars had ended. Guilliman was also one of the few Primarchs who didn't really see the Emperor as his father, paying lip service to the idea, but being the first to state how shitty the Emperor was at raising kids, and he never fully forgave the Emperor for using him and his Legion as a tool to humiliate Lorgar. He understood how to run an empire, how to inspire loyalty and how to temper the flawed nature of humanity with organisation and discipline. The Emperor's greatest failing was always a lack of understanding in the people he ruled, a flaw that few saw in him, save perhaps for [[Malcador the Sigillite]] and Guilliman.

Ultimately we get a picture of a man who's charismatic, but impersonal. Brilliantly intelligent, but often blinded by arrogance and faith. Meritocratic and receptive to the common man, but often cold and distant. A good general and warrior, but above that he was a statesman and a leader. If Horus is a conqueror at heart, if Lorgar is a demagogue, Guilliman is a CEO or Governor, a man whose concern is less the glories and bloodshed of war, and more the administrative work that follows.

After his long nap he seems frustrated with the new (old) Imperium and shaken by his meeting with the Emperor, but that good 'ol Ultramarine spirit is still with him, so he got up, stretched his limbs, and went to town for an ass whooping. A few of his actions thus far are imminently noteworthy. He dissolved the independent sovereignty of any worlds that were historically part of Ultramar, has started catering to the Imperial Creed in one of his speeches, is openly cooperating with xenos witches, and essentially taking the role of Emperor 2.0. That's not to say that any of those choices are wrong or unnecessary, but they're all notable because they show that Guilliman is now more inclined to sudden, imperious action where once he might have used diplomacy; however, this may be a result of having to singlehandedly salvage the entire Imperium
even as it fights against his attempts at reform. Overall, Guilliman is disillusioned with his dad, disgusted by the Ecclesiarchy, and disappointed with the Imperium as a whole. His sense of duty and faith in humanity is as strong as ever, but his faith in the Emperor has been badly shaken.

==Popular Opinion==
''All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.''<br>
- Sun Tzu

Guilliman is mostly hated by the community at large because of [[Matt Ward | Mattards]] Codex: Space Marines. However, it is worth stating that Guilliman was probably one of the most important figures holding the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy. He's pretty much the only Primarch to realize that the Emperor's ideals were more important than the man himself, which is something that [[Malcador the Sigillite|Malcador]] kept preaching.

He was also the best Primarch when it came to logistics and organization, rivaled only by [[Perturabo]] (but Guilliman wasn't an antisocial autistic weirdo, so there's that), which is pretty much one of the only reasons why the [[Imperium of Man]] didn't collapse after the Horus Heresy. He was able to train and equip more than twice as many Marines during the [[Great Crusade]] than any other Legion, and he wrote the [[Codex Astartes]] (still the standard for Space Marine tactics). He is credited with reorganizing the entire governmental and administrative system of the [[Imperium of Man]] (yes, the reorganized Administratum ended up running the galaxy into the ground, but the fact that it's still running at all is a good sign).

However as the Horus Heresy series continues, it is revealed that it was actually [[Malcador the Sigillite]] who had been creating the foundations for the later Imperium. In fact it is continuously being hinted that Guilliman positioned himself to take over the Imperium after the fall of the Emperor, being almost explicitly stated in ''Vengeful Spirit''. whether through good intentions or through sinister means has yet to be revealed. Funnily enough Kor Phaeron, who hated his guts, identified him as the Primarch best suited to succeed his dad, though given the source, that may well be intended as an insult. Despite this, Guilliman claimed that he had no desire to be Emperor and promised his brothers that if the otherwise impassable Ruinstorm abated, he would immediately send his fleet to Terra. That said, the Blood Angels managed to get back to Terra somehow, despite being on the wrong side of it, so it's unknown just how difficult it was to get back.

''Unfortunately'', thanks to 10,000 years of propaganda and exaggeration (and Matt Ward's Codex: Space Marines), Guilliman is ''absolutely perfect'' in every way and treated as ''second only to the Emperor'' through ''the entire Imperium.'' This is incorrect, considering that [[Sebastian Thor]] is actually the main Imperial saint, and [[Sanguinius]] is the primarch most beloved by the common men of the Imperium. Regardless, Guilliman is pretty high on the list and the only Primarch whose body is on public display. This "better than thou" shit is sad and quite paradoxical, since Guilliman himself genuinely recognized [[Lion El'Jonson|some]] [[Horus|Primarchs]] were better than him as leaders. He has sometimes been portrayed as petty or jealous of his brother Primarchs but also intelligent enough to acknowledge his own errors when proved wrong. Far from the "perfect in every aspect" figure Matt Ward promoted, the HH Guilliman is actually a man with a lot of very human weaknesses but possessing the humility to admit them as flaws he must deal with.

[[Fallen Angels|Astelan]], while a prisoner of the [[Dark Angels]] goes into detail explaining how Guilliman was purportedly the ''"greatest"'' of the Primarchs, but only in the context of what the Emperor intended for them. Astelan describes that Guilliman was '''"not the most able-minded, nor as charismatic, and not as physically adept"''' and was the inferior of [[Horus]] in every respect. Although Astelan was also a traitor and a fallen angel, so his word is hardly reliable. His greatness came from the fact that Guilliman never once wavered in dedication and service and created his Space Marines to be incorruptible. Guilliman and his Ultramarines were the perfect <u>sons</u>, not necessarily perfect soldiers. It's also worthy of note that much like [[Rogal Dorn]] and [[Lion El'Jonson]], Guilliman was a possible candidate for the position of warmaster, but was rejected for the same reasons they were: he didn't get along with many of his brothers.

However, contrary to that, He also did a lot of tricky things in [[Horus Heresy]], like that whole [[Imperium Secundus]] thing, and it's popularly theorized that he was bitter that he never got to be '''Warmaster''', which despite his claims that he had no desire to become Emperor, when he appointed the [[High Lords of Terra]] he nominated himself for the seat of '''Lord Commander of the Imperium''' which was essentially "Warmaster" in all but name, and the titular commander of the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces. So claiming that no man should have the power of a Legion, then place himself at the top of the chain of command for all of the [[Space Marine Chapter|Chapters]] that his remaining brothers were left with was a bit hypocritical.

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Or was it?
<div class="mw-collapsible-content">
It's quite likely that Guilliman's actions in creating the Imperium Secundus, and his later actions during the reformation of the Imperium, are a reference to the Roman practice of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator|Roman Dictatorship]]. A roman dictator was more or less what we think of as a modern dictator, with one key exception. The dictator was given absolute executive and military power over Rome and her holdings in times of crisis, when the gridlock and beaurocratic red tape of roman society got in the way of doing what needed to be done. But as strange as it sounds to our modern minds, dictators were elected to their position, and without exception in all the history of Rome every dictator willingly stepped down and returned power to the senate.

It's highly likely that Guilliman's actions after the emperor's death are a reference to this practice: he set aside the normal moral and legal rules restricting him so that he could restructure the imperium. Despite the fact that he was in the perfect position to assume power over the entire imperium, he relinquished power to the Council of Terra after some sense of stability had returned. This is further supported by how heavily his legion leans on Roman culture, and how much Guilliman himself draws on the famous generals of Rome (Julius and Augustus Caesar, Cininatus, etc).</div></div>

So with that being said, he was no more flawless than the other Primarchs; Even during the Great Crusade, while he was considered to be one of the greatest strategists in the entire Imperium, he was defeated in combat simulations by [[Corax]] of the [[Raven Guard]], having to be specifically taught that there is no fixed dividing line between non-combatants and soldiers when people are defending their homes; that under-strength units should not be ruled out as ineffective; and that small units of adaptable troops can be wielded with just as much effect as larger battalions and chapters. Furthermore, Guilliman stuck closely to his tried and true methods, refusing to give credit to what he considered "unconventional" tactics, pissing off many other Primarchs, most notably [[Alpharius]]. Even though he would later be shown by his own men how effective such unconventional guerrilla tactics would be and would include then in his codex.

Therefore while he was certainly the Primarch with the greatest mental capacity and adaptability, he was apparently incapable of lateral thinking and would fail to see the flaws in his methods until explicitly shown the error of his ways. ( which certainly indicates that he was definitely not the primarch with the greatest mental capacity or adaptability. Alpharius and Magnus come to mind or even Corax or the Lion whos Legion literally did it all.) Also, though the Codex Astartes undoubtedly did a lot of good things like making sure each chapter could feasibly fight under most conditions no matter their heritage or preference, forcing all of his brothers to split their Legions into [[Codex Astartes|Chapters]] risked a second galactic civil war.

Additionally, although it isn't (entirely) his fault, Guilliman is usually blamed for turning the Ultramarines into such faggots. The Codex is now basically treated as infallible by the Ultramarines ''(at least the more faggot-y ones; [[Captain Titus|there's at least some who take it with a grain of salt and realize where its strengths and weaknesses lie]])''. even though he '''specifically said''' that the [[Codex Astartes]] should not be treated as a bible to be followed unerringly... Except for the organizational parts, which he forced on his brothers as part of the post-Heresy reforms and were upheld by the High Lords of Terra as a means of keeping the Astartes in check.

Recently he's been increasingly entrusted to the care of the Mighty [[Dan Abnett]] and his faggot level is dropping rapidly. Now, Guilliman isn't portrayed as a power armored Sun Tzu, but as a logistical genius, planning planetary conquest in a way that would leave said worlds in a state that could quickly be returned to order and Imperial rule. His high number of compliant worlds is a direct product of this, helped by his Legion's innate tendency towards discipline, hierarchy and monomaniacal fixation on whatever their objective might be.

This adherence toward a rigid chain of command did end up becoming a double-edged sword later on, since when Guilliman was put into stasis the Ultramarines still tried to follow him (thanks to him being the at the top of the chain) and as such started to forget that the Codex Astartes was only meant to be a guideline, as opposed to a definitive text. More importantly, they slowly lost their ability to adapt to new situations, which was their most famed of traits, until the Tyrannic Wars illustrated the need to improvise new strategies when old ones failed them.

Once upon a time, thanks to the rabid fanboying of [[Matt Ward]], most of [[/tg/]] hated him, but many of them have since come around. Still expect people to [[Rage|bitch endlessly]] about how he was an absolute [[Leman Russ|narrow-minded]] [[Lion El'Jonson|hypocritical]] [[Dorn|jerk]], but don't feel bad about it.

Ironically enough, Guilliman has something the Imperium needs even more desperately than new technologies and peace: managerial skills, among the primarchs Guilliman was the only one who actually seemed to be bright enough to understand and strongly insist that no empire, no matter how militarily powerful, could withstand without a good administration, keeping the fiscal balance positive and ensuring the population, not just the armies, have a decent enough standard of living and supply lines, it speaks something of most of the denizens of 4chan that so few of them have ever pointed out this simple fact.

On a side note, he likes Shakespeare's work.

===Suddenly, Forge World!===
[[Image:Girlyman.jpg|400px|thumb|right|[[Dwarfs (Warhammer Fantasy)|Guilliman atop his mighty Oathstone (not seen are the Chapter Serfs who get the honour of carrying him around)! Note how tiny his sword is. Matt Ward does not approve.]]]]
When Tempest came out, it immediately forgot that Guilliman's supposed to be just as heavily flawed as the other Primarchs, in Tempest Guilliman is "a paragon among the Emperor's sons", and that he "is as much a statesman as he is an indefatigable warrior." He's also as just as great a strategist, in addition to being the most level-headed, the quickest to react, the smartest and the most analytical, constantly basing new and better designs off of existing materials, as well as refining battle plans thanks to having a mind that calmly and coldly allows him to analyze everything around him and wonder how various things like his marines, his armour and his weapons could all be improved. He observes what other Primarchs do with their warriors makes them better in his own creations, in doing so (specifically copying Perturabo's Siege Tyrants in the rules) they say he's "proving himself once again the master of all of the myriad disciplines of war." This is further evidenced by his rules below where he's the best Primarch at buffing his army, while as a warrior in a straight-up fight he only loses to Horus and Fulgrim''(not counting [[Lorgar|psychic interference]] or Primarchs with a [[Angron|bit of momentum behind them]])''.

In addition Guilliman's Ultramarines during the Horus Heresy were the most disciplined of all the Space Marines (wrong, as Unremembered Empire pointed out the 1st were more disciplined) as well as the most numerous, the ones who prized intelligence above all to help them formulate the best battle plan, and with the best training/recruitment (also wrong the 1st Legion had Luther who reduced training time for a marine to just 5 years.), not to mention being familiar with the other legions MO's and able to pull them off without any problems which had a lot to do with their rigid chain of command (again this is nonsense, as the raven guard and alpha Legion's M.O.'s were never even attempted by the Ultramarines nor the way that the Vlka Fenryka fought war. If they were capable of that feat they wouldn't have been behind other legions on victories). This goes on to the point that they were considered the biggest threat (before Isstvan) and the book outright states that if the Ultramarines were aware of Horus' rebellion they and their Auxilia would be able to make [[Ultramar|the 500 worlds]] a bastion that by itself, would be able to weather the entire heresy and challenge [[Horus]] for control of the eastern half of the Galaxy. [[Matt Ward|I guess the Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Blood Angels on Terra didn't really try hard enough.]] But to be fair the size of the Legion at the time is nothing new since the Ultramarines have always been described as the Legion with the most recruits and the least casualties long before the Wardian plague begins.

A more generous explanation could be that since the books were written after the Heresy in-universe, it could just be a case of "history is written by the winners" kicking in again, since (rather thankfully) "Everything is canon, not everything is true." Or maybe Matt was secretly brought back for that particular book, which would go quite a long way in explaining all of the Smurf wanking in it. It's likely we'll have to wait until the follow-up book on the Shadow Crusade to determine which of those it is. This doesn't entirely go against 40k's history however, while saying the smurfs and their auxiliaries could take on all of the traitor legions at full strength is undoubtedly complete horseshit, Ultramar was ''always'' considered to have been one of the greatest threats to Horus' rebellion and was the prime reason that the Battle of Calth took place; to get them all in one place and hit them with a surprise attack, and then pin the Ultramarines in place for the duration of the Heresy. The same applies to Guilliman, who has always been considered to have been one of the most intelligent and adaptable of Primarchs, as well as being gifted with his own brilliance.

Thankfully he still retains at least one flaw, that being he has no creative spark. He made Perturabo's Terminators better, but he'd never have made them on his own. He made his own versions of power weapons that were far better than regular power weapons as they were more precise/lethal when in trained hands, yet he could only do that after studying countless designs of regular power weapons. Even his own armour is artificer armour that he improved in ways heavily influenced by what Vulkan and Perturabo have made.

Well, two flaws actually. His assumption that his and therefore Ultramarine nobility and camaraderie will rub off on to other, less forward thinking legions was a direct contributor to his massive losses at the utterly disastrous Battle of Calth. His belief that the Word Bearers and their Militias could be best bros to his troops if only they spent more time, more closely together helped Lorgar's sons be in just the right position to inflict devastating casualties on the XIIIth from the moment of betrayal. Lets be clear, 100,000 Ultramarines were dead (not casualties, but dead) 12 hours after the battle began and by the end of the surface conflict 145,000 of his sons were killed or permanently combat non-effectives. Considering the total Legion strength prior to the slaughter was 250,000, Calth cost the Ultramarines c.60% of their strength and all for the bargain basement cost of 50,000 Word Bearers, though it's worthy of note that the casualty ratios between the two legions were actually pretty similar, as the Word Bearers were at about 125,000 by Calth. Considering that a force with superior wargear (that the Warmaster made sure his traitors had) striking from ambush against a force that's out of position, deliberately striking at the Ultramarine's command structure, something they're quite weak to, with ALL THOSE ADVANTAGES, they only got a 3 to 1 casualty ratio. It is perhaps no surprise that Imperial history records that Guilliman completely lost his temper and cool at Lorgar when the treachery was realized (insert max troll face here), perhaps this was what allowed him to survive immediately afterwards in the hard vacuum of space for 11 hours without his helmet?

On the other side (and that is a good point) Guilliman and the Ultramarines are not as "noblebright" in ''Tempest'' as they can be in other pieces of background. While he promotes meritocracy and progress and refuses to waste any life, Roboute is always described as cold and logical, obsessed with efficiency, and not a kind of crusading philanthropist. FW's Guilliman is first and foremost a statesman and a warlord willing to make the most effective system possible, and ''Tempest'' implies he used a kind of political police of his own (the Vigil Opertii) to silence any opposition in Ultramar. Just like the Imperium does. The only difference with the other Primarchs is Guilliman cannot deny HE is responsible for all the [[1984|authoritarian shit]] happening in HIS private empire. Feel free to think what you want about Guilliman being OP or a Mary Sue, FW still made him more grimdark than before, even if he remains a nice dude by 30k standards.

==Gameplay==
===30K Guilliman===
{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" align="left"
! || Pts || WS || BS || S || T || W || I || A || Ld || Sv
|-
| '''Roboute Guilliman:''' || 400 || 7 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 4+1 || 10 || 2+/4++
|}<br style="clear: both; height: 0px;" /><br>
True to his legion, Roboute Guilliman is fairly average as far as Primarchs go, both in terms of his stats and his points cost, but it's the rules and equipment you really want him for. He and any unit he joins can re-roll failed charge distances, and the Concussive special rule doesn't do shit against him. All Ultramarines in play gain +1 to Ld while he's in play and he also makes Invictarus Suzerains and Legion Terminators troops as long as he's the warlord. Preternatural Strategy can force opponents to re-roll successful attempts at Seize the Initiative while also granting all units from one entry in the Ultramarines army list Implacable Advance, Interceptor, or Tank Hunters if they don't have it already, and by that they do mean entry, not just one unit, so if you selected Legion Predator Strike Armour Squadron to have Tank Hunters then every Legion Predator Strike Armour Squadron in your army will gain the rule. It also buffs his WS by 1 for each round of combat within a challenge after the first one (e.g. he becomes WS8 on the second round and so on), although it resets back to 7 after the challenge is over or if his opponent swaps out for somebody else via something like Glorius Intervention. Finally, Unyielding Will negates all negative leadership modifiers and allows him to re-roll failed Deny the Witch tests. (Funnily enough, this actually makes him a decent counter for Lorgar's psychic faggotry, though it won't help him deny Lorgars' blessings.)

Guilliman's Armor of Reason gives him a 2+/4++ and the ability to re-roll the first invulnerable save he fails in each phase. (Not per turn, per phase.). As for his weapons, he can choose one of two melee weapons to use in any given assault phase: the Gladius Incandor (a Paragon Blade with Shred) and the Hand of Dominion (a S10 AP1 Power Fist with Concussion). Both of them are Specialist weapons, so regardless of which one he picks he still gets an extra attack. Finally, his gun is the Arbitrator, a S6 AP3 combi-bolter with Assault 2 and Rending- which he might as well have left at home for how often it fires it as he has a Cognis Signum to use instead (+1 BS to a unit instead of firing a weapon himself). Overall, he gives out a nice variety of buffs and can really hold his own in a fight while being one of the best tactician characters in the game.

Due to his low mobility and vulnerability to tarpits, he's unlikely to make his points back by [[Mortarion|killing something expensive.]] That said, +1 Ld is a reasonably strong bonus, and the insurance against seizing is good insurance against things going [[Not as planned]]. Also, the sky is the limit with the unit entry buff. Tank Hunting Support Squads or Heavy Weapon Squads sound good to you? How about Rapiers? A Cognis Signum is always nice to have. Capping all this off is that you can run a basically tax-free list by taking the severely broken Suzerains as troops.

Don't forget, this is all for only 125 points more than [[Marneus Calgar|M.A.C. daddy]], further proof of 30k superiority.

====30K Roboute Guilliman VS Other 30K Primarchs====
<div class="toccolours mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="100%">
Primarch fighting, while fun to see, isn't a very competitive thing to do as it'll usually tie up both Primarchs for the entire game without either of them dying. With that in mind this section is all about how Roboute Guilliman fares against other Primarchs mathhammer wise. Please note that all the various abilities, with the exception of Blind, are taken into account (Blind is ignored because it is just too random and unreliable to come into play) and the match-ups assume the Primarchs are the only ones involved in the fighting, so various abilities like Angron's "The Butcher's Nails" and Rampage do not provide any bonuses. Also do note that Preternatural Strategy is taken into account (obviously) so prepare to see even more mathhammer than for the other Primarchs.
<div class="mw-collapsible-content">

* Roboute Guilliman VS Horus
**Horus will use his Talon of Horus (rerollable 3+ is better than flat 2+, and Disabling Strike can counter the slow-burn effect of Preternatural Strategy) and hits 4 times, wounds 3.555 times, 1.778 after saves, then 1.564 for the Armour of Reason and IWND will take that down to 1.231 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times (Gladius), 0.74 wounds after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.407.
**Guilliman loses this fight (Quite appropriately).
**Note: Due to the nature of the fight this match doesn't take into account Preternatural Strategy (Because it is balanced by Disabling Strike). Also do note that after the first few wounds inflicted from Horus, Guilliman will have his S significantly reduced and the Gladius Incandor will become useless. However, Disabling Strike doesn't affect the Hand of Dominion, so Guilliman will still wound Horus on a 2+.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Angron
**Angron Round 1: Angron has Hatred, so on the first turn he will hits 5.333 times, wounds 4.444 times, 2.222 after saves, 2.008 after Armour of Reason re-roll and IWND take it down to 1.675.
**Angron Round 2: Angron hits 4 times, wounds 3.333 times, 1.667 times after saves, 1.453 after re-roll and IWND will take that down to 1.12 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Angron Round 3 and thereafter: Angron hits 3 times, wounds 2.5 times, 1.25 after saves and 1.036 after the re-roll. Then IWND take it down to 0.703.
**Guilliman Round 1/2/3: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 0.926 times after saves and FNP, and IWND will take that down to 0.59 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 4 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 1.234 times after saves and FNP, and IWND will take that down to 0.9 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Unsurprisingly, Guilliman loses this fight in 6 rounds, dying directly before he's able to kill Angron as even though he has an extra wound on Angron, he takes too much damage.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Fulgrim
**Fulgrim Round 1: hits 4.861 times (Fireblade is MC), wounds 3.601 times (Child of Terra Warlord Trait), 1.801 times after the Invuln, 1.582 after the Armour of Reason and IWND will take that down to 1.249 at the start of the next turn.
**Fulgrim Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.714 times, wounds 2.889 times, 1.445 times after the Invuln, 1.226 after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.893 at the start of the next turn.
**Concussed Fulgrim (cannot happen earlier than round 3): Hits 2.708 times, wounds 2.106 times, 1.053 times after the invuln, 0.845 after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.56 wounds.
**Guilliman with Gladius Incandor Round 1/2: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 0.74 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.407 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman with Gladius Incandor Round 3 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 0.988 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.654 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman with Hand of Dominion Round 1/2: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times, 0.694 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.361 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman with Hand of Dominion Round 3 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.777 times, 0.926 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.593 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**An unsurprising loss for Guilliman. If Guilliman chooses to use the Gladius Incandor, Fulgrim will out-damage him in the long run, and if he chooses to concuss Fulgrim, Fulgrim temporarily loses his extra attacks, but Guilliman cannot put out enough damage to keep Fulgrim concussed, meaning Fulgrim gets back up to his normal initiative, gains his extra attacks back, and beats down Guilliman.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Mortarion
**Mortarion hits 2.5 times, wounds 1.666, 0,833 after saves, 0.625 wounds after Armor of Reason, and after IWND it becomes 0.292 wounds.
**Guilliman Round 1: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times, 1.042 after saves, and IWND take it down to 0.486.
**Guilliman Round 2 and after: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.777 times, 1.388 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.833.
**Easy win for Guilliman.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Ferrus
**Ferrus: hits 2.5 times (Forgebreaker and Servo-Harm), wounds 2.083 times, 1.042 after the Invuln, 0.834 times after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.501 at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 1: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times (Hand), 0.694 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.361 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.778 times, 0.926 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.593 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman wins this fight.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Konrad Curze
**Curze Round 1: hits 4 times, wounds 3 times, 1.5 times after the Invuln, 1.286 times after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.953 at the start of the next turn.
**Curze Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3 times, wounds 2.25 times, 1.125 times after the Invuln, 0.911 times after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.578 at the start of the next turn
**Guilliman Round 1/2: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 1.111 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.778 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 3 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 1.481 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 1.148 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman easily wins this fight.
**Note: Konrad could attempt to even the odds with Hit and Run, negating Preternatural Strategy while gaining the +1 attack for the charge (and sniping some wounds with his knives), but so long as Guilliman uses his power fist by the second round of combat Curze will be locked to initiative 1 and will be dead before it's guaranteed he'll be able to leave combat.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Vulkan
**Vulkan hits 2 times, wounds 1.667 times, 0.833 times after saves, 0.633 times after Armour of Reason and IWND will take that down to 0.3.
**Guilliman Round 1: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times, 0.694 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.139 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.778 times, 0.926 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.37 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**A long as fuck fight, but Guilliman takes the win 'cause he does marginally more damage.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Lorgar
**Lorgar hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times, 1.042 times after the Invuln, 0.834 after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.501.
**Guilliman Round 1: hits 2.778 times, wounds 1.85 times, 0.926 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.593 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 1.48 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 1.15 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Even with forcing Guilliman to re-roll 5's and 6's for the first round Lorgar will still lose.
**Note: this doesn't take into account Psychic Powers and with Precognition on Lorgar will easily win. Guilliman's rerollable DtW doesn't do shit, as it only works against witchfires and maledictions, while Lorgar's most powerful spells are blessings.

*Roboute Guilliman VS Perturabo
**Perturabo Round 1: hits 2.667 times, wounds 2.222 times, 1.111 times after the Invuln, 0.911 times after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.578.
**Perturabo Round 2 and thereafter: hits 2 times, wounds 1.667 times, 0.833 times after the Invuln, 0.633 after Armour of Reason and IWND will take that down to 0.3.
**Guilliman Round 1/2: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 0.74 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.407 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 3 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 0.988 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.654 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Again, Guilliman wins pretty safely. Starting to see a trend here.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Alpharius
**Alpharius hits 2.917 times and wounds 1.702 times (Remember he has Preferred Enemy), 0.851 wounds after the Invuln, 0.643 after Armour of Reason and IWND will take that down to 0.31 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 1: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 1.111 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.778 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 1.482 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 1.148 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman wins really easily, as the damage Alpharius does is almost irrelevant, thus making the claim that he personally killed the lord of the Alpha Legion actually believable...

* Roboute Guilliman VS Rogal Dorn
**Dorn Round 1: hits 2.666 times, wounds 2 times, 1 time after the Invuln, 0.8 wounds after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.467 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Dorn Round 2 and thereafter: hits 2 times, wounds 1.5 times, 0.75 wounds after the Invuln, 0.55 after the re-roll and IWND will take that down to 0.217 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 1/2: hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.222 times, 1.111 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 0.778 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 3 and thereafter: hits 3.333 times, wounds 2.963 times, 1.482 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 1.148 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman easily wins this fight, taking a lot less damage and dishing out more.
**Note: Dorn doesn't use Sundering Blow because he would actually cause less damage with it.

* Roboute Guilliman VS Corvus Corax
**Corvus hits 4 times (Scourge)/3 times (Shadow-walk), wounds 3 times (Scourge)/2.25 times (Shadow-walk), causing 1.5 wounds (Scourge)/1.125 wounds (Shadow-walk) after the Invuln which drop down to 1.286 (Scourge)/0.911 (Shadow-walk) and IWND will take that down to 0.953 (Scourge)/0.578 (Shadow-walk) wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman Round 1: 2.5/1.666 times, wounds 2.0833/1.389 times, 1.389/0.926 wounds after saves and 1.055/0.593 wounds after IWND.
**Guilliman Round 2 and thereafter: hits 3.333/2.5 times, wounds 2.963/2.083 times, 1.975/1.389 times after saves and IWND will take that down to 1.642/1.055 wounds at the start of the next turn.
**Guilliman easily wins this fight
**Note: Like Curze, Corax could try to use Hit and Run to even the odds, having even more bonus than Curze thanks to his uber-Furious Charge, but unlike Curze it wouldn't work for too long as the second time they fight (whether Corax charges or Guilliman catches him) Guilliman will have him concussed (He's using his fist for a reason) for the rest of the fight and will kill him before Corax can escape again, thus making the strategy not viable against Papa Smurf.

* Roboute Guilliman vs. Leman Russ
** Leman Round 1 & 2 (using the Axe of Helwinter): Hits 4.886 times, wounds 4.071 times, 2.035 after the Invuln, 1.817 after the re-roll with IWND taking that down to 1.484 at the start of the next turn.
** Leman Round 3 and on (using the Axe of Helwinter): Hits 3.719 times, wounds 3.099 times, 1.55 after the Invuln, 1.331 after the re-roll with IWND taking that down to 0.998 at the start of the next turn.
** Roboute Round 1 and Round 4+ (using the Hand of Dominion): Hits 1.667 times, wounds 1.389 times, 0.695 wounds after saves, and IWND will take that down to 0.362 wounds at the start of the next turn.
** Roboute Round 2 & 3: Hits 0.833, wounds 0.694 times, 0.3472 wounds after saves, and IWND will take that down to 0.014 wounds at the start of the next turn.
** Result: It's not even a challenge. Leman Russ kills Rowboat Girlyman almost effortlessly. What do you expect from trying to go up against The Emperor's Executioner(of primarchs). That furry fucker was designed from the ground up to kill every primarch in the entire game.

* TL;DR version: Surprisingly, despite being one the best army buffers amongst Primarchs and his generally not outstanding (for a Primarch) stats, Guilliman is actually a beast in 1 on 1 fights if they drag on long enough, beating all but the most specialised Primarchs and mathematically losing only to Horus, Angron, Fulgrim and Leman Russ. Truth is that he's very well balanced with a choice of good weapons for offense, a decent defense and an extra ability that benefits both. He loses when his more balls out brothers just dump damage on him but when he has the chance to let his strategy impact the fight he'll typically win. He'll likely fall down the rankings some more when Sanguinius and the Lion step onto the field but with his army buffs he'll remain a great choice.
</div></div>

===40K Guilliman===
[[Matt Ward]].
{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" align="left"
! || Pts || WS || BS || S || T || W || I || A || Ld || Sv
|-
| '''Roboute Guilliman:''' || 350 || 9 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 10 || 2+/3++
|}<br style="clear: both; height: 0px;" /><br>
[[Image:GUILLIMAN2017.jpg|400px|thumb|right|[[Matt Ward]] is having an orgasm right now... as are many [[Ultramarines]] players. [[Rape|Suffice to say, he is a unstoppable force of undiluted assfuckery. Be afraid. Be very afraid.]]]]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoLs0V8T5AA ''We can rebuild him. We have the technology...'']

''"Why do I still live? What more do you want from me? I gave everything I had to you, to them. Look what they have made of our dream. This bloated, rotten carcass of an empire is driven not by reason and hope, but by fear, hate and ignorance. Better that we had all burned in the fire of Horus' ambition than lived to see this."'' <br>
― Guilliman is back, and he wants to know what the fuck went so wrong with the Imperium.

But as for now, the hot topic is that HE'S BACK, in plastic, and a part of a "Triumvirate" of sorts with him, Cypher, and a Grey Knight Grand Master named Voldus. The miniature itself looks somewhat cartoony, and has new armour courtesy of [[Belisarius Cawl]], a Power Fist with a built-in version of his old Bolter (seems Cawl couldn't spring for the Ad-Mech's good stuff), a life support system, and the option of a rather awesome helmet for maximum head protection (technically not needed at all since he fights Magnus on the moon, his suit gets breached and he fights without air again). Bonus points as he is also carrying the Blazing Sword, officially stated to be one of The Big E's weapons. Regardless, the general trend is that he looks really good. Yes, we're still talking about Guilliman. The only real complaint people have is how splay legged he is and how he looks like a Thousand Son with omegas.

Also, the GW community site seems to imply that you can change his two heads on the fly, meaning you can possibly paint and use both of them without committing to either one.

Strangely, the three Chaos Gods who are made of stuff other than rage and war aren't fazed or angry he's back; if anything they seem to view him as an opportunity. Slaanesh wants to corrupt him, Nurgle wants him as a plaything, and Tzeentch <s>wants to manipulate</s> is already trying to manipulate him. Naturally, Khorne reacted to this news as he always does, by giving his best queen of hearts impression and demanding Guilliman's head. Oddly enough, while we get reactions from Fulgrim, Mortarion, and Magnus (the former two being about as happy as Khorne while Magnus finds it funny), Angron's suspiciously absent, while Lorgar and Perturabo either didn't notice or didn't care. Alpharius didn't react either, probably because he's too busy making us wonder if he is dead or not.

He has almost the same statline he has in 30k with a significant buff to his weapon skill and a slightly smaller one to his attacks, but his special rules and wargear are slightly different. The comparison follows.
*He loses: ''It Will Not Die'', ''Type: Infantry (Character)'', ''Independent Character'', ''Master of the Legion''.
*He keeps: ''Adamantium Will'', ''Eternal Warrior'', ''Fear'', ''Fearless'', ''Fleet'', ''Precision Shots'', ''Precision Strikes'',
*[[Rape|He gains:]] ''Type: Monstrous Creature (Character) (and all associated rules)'', ''Feel No Pain'', ''Preferred Enemy (Chaos)'', ''Absolute Mastery (which gives him all 6 Command Traits if he's the Warlord)'', ''Lord Commander of the Imperium (all Armies of the Imperium can re-roll all failed morale, pinning, and fear tests while Guilliman is on the battlefield)'', ''Primarch of the XIII Legion (an extra copy of each Combat Doctrine that affects all Ultramarines models in your army)'', ''Unyielding Will (his leadership is not subject to any negative modifiers of any kind along with re-rolling failed Deny the Witch tests)''.

Guilliman's Armor of Fate gives him a 2+/3++. The improved invulnerable save is nice, but the gimmick is that Guilliman can [[Commissar Yarrick|come back from the dead]]...half the time, with D3 wounds restored. THE EMPEROR'S FLAMING SWORD is the freaking '''MURDERSWORD''' to end them all. He attacks at S10 AP1 (but rule-wise uses both Hand of Dominion and The Emperor's Sword in the same profile, so yeah, Avatar will totally kick his ass) with Armourbane, Concussive, and Soul Blaze. The sword's 2 unique rules are ''The Emperor's Touch'': if Guilliman rolls a 6 to hit it becomes a Destroyer attack, and ''Whirling Flame'': he can sacrifice 6 attacks to hit every enemy model within 1" of him. His relic Power Fist (cannot be used separately) '''Hand of Dominion''' comes with the underslung Arbitrator, which is stronger than the 30k variant. It's now 24" S6 AP2 Heavy 3 (made irrelevant by Relentless), and Rending. - you don't bring him because of his dakka, you bring him for his special rules support.

In all, he's a bit of a mix between Marneus Calgar and Saint Celestine in that he gives your army a decent strategic edge with army-wide Ld re-rolls, Warlord traits, and the potential to revive himself. He's also the best non-Forgeworld/Superheavy melee fighter the Imperium has right now. Do not send him up against the Avatar of Khaine though, since Soul Blaze will nullify all of his attacks. .

On the downside he no longer can hide in squads or use non-superheavy transports, which severely limits his mobility and survivability compared to his 30k version. D-strength is particularly nasty because of his inability to hide, doubly so since there's much more D on the table in 40k (it's good for Guilly he's allied with the [[Eldar|guys who have it flying out of their asses]]).

Fortunately GW went out of their way to remedy this obvious weakness. A new formation created for the new Ultramarines detachment called the Victrix Guard allows for the models in the formation to LOS to Guilliman, so this will give him plenty of staying power. Note that Guilliman need not be in the same formation as the Victrix Guard for this, should that come up (e.g. if you are allying him in as part of his Triumvirate). This however does nothing to fix his low mobility and the lack of transport, as the only transports he can get use the same slot he occupies - Lord of War - which you can have only ''one'' of. There are two ways around this, but it will be understandably very costly. Double CAD (Tax of 2 more troops and an HQ on top of that LoW? Nuts!), or Unbound.
At least he's 50 points less than 30k Guilliman. Who can at least [[rape|hang out with his Terminator/Fulmentarus/Suzerain]] [[This Guy|buddies]] in a [[Spartan Assault Tank]], [[Thunderhawk]] or [[Mastodon]] and not foot slog it like some Pleb. Honor Guard are not bad, but are not as good as his 30k bodyguards or [[Anal circumference|LOW Transports]]. At least he can beat almost all the 30k Primarchs in a fight. [[Deathstar|If he somehow makes it through their Transports and Deathstar Tarpits.]] Not even his Warlord Traits plus Sternguard and AP2 Power Weapons are going to help much against a vehicle filled to the brim with Terminators or Artificer Armor.

{{Primarchs}}

[[Category:Imperial]]