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Alignment

2020-12-30T15:19:27Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* Alignments in Real Life */

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[[Image:ALIGNMENT_CHART.jpg|thumb|The old reliable]]
'''Alignment''' is a key game element that originated in [[D&D|Dungeons and Dragons]]. People, creatures, spells, objects, and places can have an alignment. The term is used in other role-playing games whenever characters or NPCs have a simple stat for their own code of conduct. Alignment has spawned more [[RAGE|debates]] and motivational posters than anything else in D&D, and alignment threads now belong in /co/ after we swapped them for Empowered. Post alignment threads at risk of sagebombing.

= NOTICE =
Alignment is designed to be a rough explanation of motivation for characters in fiction, rather than a real world moral philosophy; e.g. Captain America is Lawful Good, a rebel fighting against a tyrannical megacorp is Chaotic Good, Sauron is Lawful Evil, a crazed stab-happy maniac is Chaotic Evil, etc.. There is considerable disagreement as to what constitutes Lawful Good or Lawful Evil. Is a cop which follows generally sound procedure to the letter all the time even when it's obviously wrong or a generally principled frontier sheriff who enforces rather brutal but fair justice in a lawless land Lawful Good or not (Lawful neutral, Chaotic Good, etc)? Different people will give you different answers. Both intent and methods are factors in the equation, but again the degree to which they matter and the specifics of what adds up to what is one of contention.

== Alignment in Different Editions ==
* Dave Arneson's [[Blackmoor|First Fantasy Campaign]] has three alignments: Good, Neutral, and Evil. The forces of Good included The Blue Rider, known for "riding hither and yon fighting the forces of evil and carrying off any likely wench encountered." Because of the framework of the First Fantasy Campaign, it's best to understand alignment as "allegiance".

* [[Dungeons & Dragons#Basic Dungeons & Dragons|The original D&D]] goes to a less clear-cut list (Lawful, Chaotic, and Neutral), but does not explain the precise meaning of these terms. The reader is left to interpret them from a list of examples. The side of Law includes Halflings, Patriarchs and Treants; the Neutrals includes animals, Dryads and Minotaurs; and the Chaotics are entities such as undead, "Evil High Priests" and Hobgoblins.

* [[Advanced Dungeons & Dragons|Advanced D&D]] (aka 1st edition) combined these alignment systems, with one axis for Good, Evil and Neutral, and another for Lawful, Chaotic and Neutral. Different alignments had their own "alignment languages" to allow them to properly identify one another. Interpretations of alignment language are controversial in their own right. Gygax compared alignment language to religious languages, especially Latin in the Catholic Church.

* [[Advanced Dungeons & Dragons#AD&D 2nd Edition|AD&D 2nd Edition]] made a radical change to the alignment system, by defining alignment as the character's "basic moral and ethical attitudes toward others, society, good, evil, and the forces of the universe in general". While the 1st Edition grid was used, it had gone from being the character's allegiance or team to a personality test. Alignment language was axed.

* [[Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition|3rd]] (and 3.5) Editions made no changes to alignment. Same two-axis method, same class restrictions, same hating people who were on the other side of the chart from you.

* [[4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons|4th Edition]] made a [[skub|controversial]] change. Instead of the classic 3x3 grid which has been in place since the 1970's, the alignment system was changed to a single axis with four positions: good, lawful good, evil, and chaotic evil, with the added option of being unaligned (not smart enough to understand alignments, or simply can't be bothered to give a shit - not to be confused with the old Neutral). As with many of the changes implemented in 4E, this has caused much [[Rage|heated, vigorous discussion]] about the subject.
** Ironically, the designers felt Good and Evil suffered from opposite problems; Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil were quite clearly defined (Lawful Good: benevolent but constrained by external laws, Chaotic Evil: batshit insane psycho random evulz), but Neutral/Chaotic Good and Lawful/Neutral Evil tended to sort of blur together. The point was that alignments should be a conscious effort on the part of the player, rather than acting as a personality anchor: Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil both represent very specific takes on Good and Evil (equal emphasis on law & order as to good for the former, mindlessly impulsive and often self-destructive evil for the latter). However, unless you were the kind of guy who really bothered to get into the nitty-gritty of the Law-Chaos axis splits, Neutral and Chaotic Good tended to be interchangeable in terms of being "I do good, no matter what the law has to say about it" alignments; Lawful and Neutral Evil were likewise interchangeable in terms of being "the evil I do serves a purpose and isn't just for random shits 'n' giggles". Moreover, the Morally Neutral alignments were stripped out under the basis that they tended to just be played as extreme parodies for Lawful/Chaotic Neutral (see: [[Lawful Stupid]], [[Chaotic Stupid]]) or else made little sense for an adventurer (True Neutral). Therefore, the concept of alignment was changed to whether or not a character actively pursues Good or Evil (hence the Lawful Good, Good, Evil and Chaotic Evil aligments, which cover the "how" of supporting good/evil) or simply doesn't care for greater meta-cosmological implications and is out for their own goals (Unaligned).

* [[Dungeons %26 Dragons 5th Edition|5th Edition]] brought back the old grid of nine options based on Law to Chaos and Good to Evil, but drastically shortened the descriptions (their PHB entries average 2 to 3 sentences, and one of those sentences is usually a description of what critters are usually members of that alignment). It also followed in 4e's footsteps by minimizing the actual crunch-value of alignment (even traditional alignment-requiring classes like the [[Paladin]] and [[Monk]] no longer need to be a specific alignment or lose their powers) and retaining Unaligned, though this "tenth alignment" is reserved exclusively for the sorts of creatures that are too mindless to have an alignment. In other words, 5e Unaligned is "too dumb to understand concepts of law, chaos, good or evil", whilst Neutral is "deliberately recognizes law/chaos/good/evil and chooses to hold some middle ground between the extremes".

== Controversy caused by the 2nd Edition Change ==
Making alignment a personality system has led to [[rage|vigorous]] [[Skub|debate]].

Some argue that taking alignment seriously in any way entails failure because it tries to simplify and categorizes something philosophers, sociologists, theologists and psychologists have been debating for thousands of years with no tangible results. A [[:File:Alignments_Batman.jpg|famous example]] shows the goddamn Batman in various periods of his comic and his actions and words correspond to pretty much all existing alignments. Recent developments in D&D (Eberron, 4th Edition) have been relaxing and ignoring the old rigid structure.

Others argue that those people don't understand about how the two-axis alignment system is meant to work (even the hyper-rigid structure of the 2nd Edition alignments was eventually softened to more of a Cartesian coordinates system by [[Planescape]], and ''every'' subsequent edition has eased off even further from the alignment-as-straitjacket model to an alignment-as-storytelling-tool one) and that using an inconsistent comic book character who has been written by dozens of different people over the course of his existence to try and demonstrate that the system fails is completely missing the point.

[[skub|Debate continues.]]

== The iconic D&D alignments (and why your party should kill them) ==
[[File:Alignment Demotivational.jpg|thumb|right|350px]]The title of the section alone should be a giant neon sign to take its contents with a shaker full of salt grains (or a vat of [[skub]], we're not picky).

=== Lawful Good ===
{{Topquote|Where men gather, a bustle of chaos ensues. I would save them all if I could|Keldorn Firecam}}
Truth, justice, apple pie, and curbstomping. All Lawful Good characters are the same boring boy scout types. Their [[Lawful Stupid|ridiculously rigid codes of morality]] will often lead them to betray the party when you kick a bunny or try to use something demonic (I.E. they get angry if you do anything cool). They will also whine constantly about the party breaking the law for perfectly good reasons, and are prone to BS black and white morality. ("You are not doing good, then you must be doing evil! Taste my blade, evildoer!") When they start to complain about the party's "evildoing", have the rogue engineer an "accident" for them, [[Dwarf Fortress]] style. Beware of [[Lawful Stupid]], if it wasn't painfully obvious.

Example(s): A textbook Paladin who combats evil wherever they see it, to uphold their religion's core beliefs.

Expected Personality: A "nice guy" at best. Chief of the Fun Police at worst.

=== Neutral Good ===
{{Topquote|I don't care if it is legal; it's wrong|Lord of War}}
The quintessential "nice guy". Unlike the Lawful Good types, Neutral Good types draw their morality from simply being a good person, not because a book or the law told them to. Its vague, and usually boils down to trying to do whatever helps the most people, ignoring but not acting against traditions and laws. They differ from Chaotic Good in that they don't go out of their way to shake things up or "stick it to the man." Perhaps the simplest form of good, as it doesn't have as many complications as Chaotic or Lawful variants... except when you have Variant 1 (good actions no matter the consequences) [[Stupid Good]] who will try to <s>negotiate</s> ''talk things out'' with the big bad.

Example(s): A peace-loving cleric who is against the mere thought of violence, or a wandering adventurer who visits small towns and helps with various problems.

Expected Personality: [[This Guy|An actual nice guy]], a friendly child, or an all-loving cleric.

=== Chaotic Good ===
{{Topquote|A vigilante is just a man lost in the scramble for his own gratification. He can be destroyed, or locked up. But if you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, and if they can't stop you, then you become something else entirely.|Ra's Al Ghul}}
Essentially adopting the credo of: "If you want peace, prepare for war", they will do good deeds and actions using rather unorthodox methods. Though this alignment can respect the law, they mostly break in it efforts to protect people, since to them the "Good" comes before the "Law". This tends to have [[skub|mixed results]]. Sure, that cop beat his wife or took drug money… and maybe that bank was run by the mafia. But the fact remains he broke rules - he broke them for good reasons, but he broke them. His well-intentioned extremism is going to get you in deep shit with the man, so be sure to betray him to the establishment at first opportunity. For an apt summary, think Robin Hood. Beware of variant 2 (good consquences no matter the actions) [[Stupid Good]].

Example(s): A freedom fighter, combating an oppressive regime to free their people.

Expected Personality: A hotblooded asshole with a barely functioning moral compass.

=== Lawful Neutral ===
{{Topquote|You're gonna tow me!?" "Towing is first offense, this is your third. GRENADE!|Judge Dredd}}

Think Paladins without the morality. Lawful Neutral characters are essentially the law-made-manifest. They uncompromisingly enforce the law down to the letter and do not give any unofficial leeway regardless of the circumstances. Stole some food to feed your starving family? One year, isocubes. Stole a car to save the lives of hundreds? '''Five years.''' Robbed the bank to buy a cure for your dying sister? '''TWENTY YEARS!''' And code thirty six thirteen, the first degree murder of a street judge... Death. Court's adjourned.

If they aren't actively enforcing the law, they are instead following it to the letter and will insist to other people to do the same. The reasoning varies, but it usually boils down to them respecting and upholding order, which the law represents. Upholding order isn't always simple or easy, sometimes you have to make the hard call and have morality take a back seat a few times for the bigger picture.

At best they're obstructive bureaucrats who will get through almost anything by ruthlessly exploiting every legal avenue and loophole they can find (They probably legally ruined a few lives along the way, but the law's the law, not their problem.). At worst they're insufferable [[Rules Lawyer]]s given the license of roleplay, and will bitch even more about the rules than the lawful goods. They're going to turn on you the second you jaywalk across the street to stop a mugger, so as soon as you get out of town leave them in a shallow grave. Beware even harder of [[Lawful Stupid]].

But what's worse is there are settings where they're completely justified. Judge Dredd, the Adeptus Arbites, ... Chicago on a weekend... Whatever it may say about human nature, it's pretty easy to worldbuild a scenario where hardnosed lawgivers are literally the only thing keeping a city from resembling [[Commorragh]].

Example(s): An uncompromising judge who dispenses justice as their codex demands, for better or worse. Or Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory when he isn't scheming (Lawful Evil) or being Lawful Good to his friends.

Expected Personality: The first half of the neutral jerkass duo, who wants to stop people from having fun.

=== True Neutral ===
Comes in three varieties: "Dedicated to Balance" True Neutral, "Can't be Bothered to Care" True Neutral, and "amoral animal" True Neutral (AKA 5e Unaligned).

{{Topquote|So you remove excess of both good and evil? How can you tell which is which?|Yoshimo}}
The "Dedicated to Balance" types are types who are not concerned about the morality of their choices, but rather how it will affect the status quo (although what that status quo is, is dependent on the character in question). This means that a true neutral character may allow things like war, suffering, or disasters to continue, if it ensures that the balance of power is maintained. They are not necessarily malevolent, as they see their actions as a completely necessary act for the greater good that would benefit everyone in the long run (paradoxically defeating the purpose of their supposed moral neutrality) - but then again they're insufferable dickbags who sees the entire universe as one big chequebook to even out, who will sell you out in a heartbeat if it meant maintaining the status quo.

{{Topquote|Good, bad...I'm the guy with the gun.|Caleb}}
"Don't Care" types are either extremely uninspired roleplayers, NPC villagers, or [[Bear Lore|bears]]. However, they'll usually do what seems like a good idea at the time. This means you should kill them, because chances are they're reading this at the same time as you, and will try to kill you preemptively.

{{Topquote|Nature is what she is, persistent and amoral|Stephen Jay Gould}}
The "amoral animal" types are those whose actions lack any type of moral motivation behind them, and instead act upon their own pre-programmed instincts like how an animal in the wild would. Typically reserved for non-sapient enemy NPCs (and gods forbid you actually play as one), these types do what they do, because its just their nature.

They don't really see anything as good or evil nor rationalize that to any extent, they just do it for their own survival. (Murdered a man for food? Its just prey like that goat I slaughtered earlier, only less hairy. Me and my brood have to eat to survive, don'tcha know?) The main distinction between those and the "don't care" True Neutrals is the fact that they genuinely lack the capacity to normalize or rationalize in any direction, rather than refusing to acknowledge their ability to.

Overall, show them the business end of your weapon as soon as the opportunity presents itself. Beware of both variant 1 (passive/don't care) and variant 2 (active/cosmic checkbook fanatic) [[Stupid Neutral]].

Example(s): Amoral druids for the first, filler NPCs and/or civilians for the second, and a literal wild animal for the third.

Expected Personality: The most bland person you can meet.

=== Chaotic Neutral ===

{{Topquote|Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me|Rage Against the Machine}}

The actual alignment of most Gamers, the original interpretation was the agent of chaos. Characters of this alignment were often random and completely inconsistent as long as chaos was achieved. Anarchistic and individualistic, AD&D 2e notes that they are extremely difficult to deal with due to their unreliable nature. Abandoned 3.X onwards when everyone realized no-one could ever play this alignment longer than 5 minutes before suffering a forced change for the sake of adventure. That is, of course, if the character wasn't killed thanks to AD&D's high character mortality rate.

The current interpretation of this is a perfectly amoral and self serving character. One who isn't necessarily evil, as they don't actively plot to screw people for some higher cause (it just so happens they need to, given the circumstances), but instead believe in maintaining their own self interest (or cause) above all others. As far as they're concerned, they gotta watch out for numero uno and everyone else is just a tool and stepping stone to keep numero uno alive.

The player interpretation of this is "whatever the fuck I want, whenever the fuck I want." [[The Henderson Scale of Plot Derailment|Usually used directly ''after'' the DM bans evil alignments and directly ''before'' the DM ragequits.]] They're alright to have ''so long as your goals align with each other'', but as soon as that changes, it's highly recommended you introduce them to the business end of your weapon and throw their corpse in a ditch.

Also the alignment of 13 year old [[edgelord]] characters with KEWL powers, because the rebellious asshole who doesn't play by the rules is totally kewl.Beware of [[Chaotic Stupid]].

Example(s): A lone, thrill-seeking rogue fighting for his own gains and enjoyment.

Expected Personality: The other half of the neutral jerkass duo, this time having fun at the expense of everyone else.

=== Lawful Evil ===

Two types, The Corrupt Tyrant and The Honorable Villain(tm) (aka the Bipolar Dick)

{{Topquote|Greetings. I see your apartment building is currently on fire. If you'd like to sell it to me at this insultingly low price, my men here will put the fire out and save your possessions.|Business Model of [[Roman Empire|Marcus Licinius Crassus]]}}

For type 1: You have your Fascists, Stalinists, Social Darwinists, contract killers, organized crime, corrupt officials, corporate/business sharks and anybody else who can be reliably and systematically counted on to be a [[Eldrad|dick]]. In real world terms, Lawful Evil would be corrupt politicians, ridiculously wealthy plutocrats who play the system in obviously self serving ways, and/or high-functioning sociopaths (ones who are good at hiding their evil and selfish tendencies). Most do it in a socially acceptable manner that others might applaud as clever tricks; sometimes you might never even know a person is Lawful Evil, since they usually do their utmost to appear integrated in societies. The endgame is almost always multidimensional domination, so be sure to kill them before they get ''too'' powerful. Alternatively, kill them before they get the chance to screw you over/enslave you/bind you to some contract that will suck for you.

{{Topquote|When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.|[[A Song of Ice and Fire|Tywin Lannister]]}}
For type 2: Think of a ruthless warrior that nonetheless holds himself up to some sort of code; they might despise weakness and will show no hesitation at slaughtering innocents, burning villages, etc., but will sometimes let those innocents arm themselves first, as they consider killing an unarmed opponent "dishonorable". While they might care little for virtues such as mercy and compassion, they still take giving their word very seriously, and once they've been forced to make a promise you can usually count on them keeping it. However, as soon as the innocent picks up that sword, their opponent shows cowardice, or they've fullfilled their word, they’ll show no pity or hesitation and immediately resume slaughtering. Usually they are dedicated to some cause higher than themselves, and often that cause is serving the type 1 Lawful Evil villain; just as often they are also the type of disgruntled servant that will turn on said villain once they've developed some sort of respect for the hero's strength and/or realize that their boss is a dick with [https://pics.me.me/you-have-no-honor-like-a-woman-no-rrrip-your-21799641.png no honor.] There's a 50/50 chance of them either switching teams or taking the BBEG's spot for themselves, and they tend to do a better job at it. Kill them as soon as you can because in either case you'll have to put up with a cliche redemption arc or you'll have to deal with a more dangerous bad guy leading the opposing team later on.

Type 2s tend to be more prone to [[Lawful Stupid]]. Both types can borrow elements from the other to make for a more complex character such as a Type 1 who behaves Type 2 because they believe that kind of behaviour better serves them personally or a Type 2 who behaves Type 1 because they think selfish behaviour is what they must do, probably because their culture, religion, philoshopy or simple life circumstances dictate so.

Example(s): Type 1: A corrupt Baron with an eye for the throne. Type 2: A dark knight in the service of an evil god. Type 1 borrowing from Type 2: A Barbarian Chieftain who wishes to keep his authority and not be labeled a tyrant while doing so. Type 2 borrowing from Type 1: An orphan who did what they had to survive and would have ended up a good man if they had a better upbringing.

Expected Personality: A smart man with legitimate grievances against the powers that be, or a smart asshole.

=== Neutral Evil ===

{{Topquote|I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.|American Psycho}}

The asshole alignment. Follows the law as long as it helps them, then breaks it when it doesn't. Ingratiates themselves to people, before betraying them. Does good deeds, until they cease to elevate them. Social acceptance never really comes into it with these guys. There's some variety on how willing they are to act on their evil impulses, on one hand you can have someone that slits people's throats and purses for a living but on the other you can actually have a NE individual that goes through his entire life without directly killing someone, not because they haven't thought about it, but because they know the circumstances they find themselves in make getting away with murder flawlessly more trouble than it is worth. The latter are also the reason why Paladins can't just go around using their "detect evil" ability and throwing everyone that tests positive into jail, not everyone who has the potential to be a murderer will do it (in fact, most won’t, they'll just be garden variety assholes instead).

If he's being an insufferable prick you should probably just kill him, nobody will question you. If he's generally acting like a good guy you should definitely just kill him, ''he's up to [[Just as planned|something]]''. Beware of [[Stupid Evil]] if they are of the more impulsive variant or are arrogantly confident on the current situation.

Example(s): A greedy merchant that would rather let someone die on his doorstep than give away his coin for the more restrained version, a serial killer putting on a facade to continue his deeds for the more unhinged one and a lowlife thug who doesn't have any moral qualms about murdering people for money but is restrained enough to know doing this is a bad idea most of the time for a more balanced variant.

Expected Personality: High functioning (selfishness helps prevent impulsiveness to some degree) sociopath.

=== Chaotic Evil ===

{{Topquote|Let their blood RAIN FROM THE '''SKY'''!!!|Jeremy Irons, Dungeons & Dragons (2000)}}

A psychopath who's evil for the sake of being evil. There's no redeeming/remotely sane factor why they're Satan-incarnate — not to get rich, not to get revenge, not for survival, not to set things right in their own misguided way; they just relish in the act of being a total dickwad. They will murder people for kicks, rape and torture people to get their willies on, and hates everyone else, just because they were there. Some people just want to watch the world burn; those are Chaotic Evil people.

Always on a feud against society and will piss on a book of law just because he likes it, and fuck you, and fuck your law too, and I’ll eat your babies. This alignment has little-to-no depth at all and is very dangerous to keep around, its only real purpose is to make a quick 2D villain for your party to murder without any qualms, or a fun psycho-type character in a non-serious game. It is highly recommended you give them a good stomping and throw their corpse off the ramparts as soon as possible, because they will be trouble the moment their attention shifts to you. If you start out your party with one, you kinda deserve it, once the inevitable happens. Beware of [[Stupid Evil]] or worse, someone who ''alternates'' between [[Chaotic Stupid]] and [[Stupid Evil]].

Example(s): An insane doomsday cultist, who fights and kills just for the sake of fighting and killing. A bloodthirsty warlord indiscriminately spilling the blood of whomever is unlucky enough to be in their visual range, just to constantly feel the thrill of taking people's lives.

Expected Personality: Low functioning (impulsiveness is completely unchained) sociopath, "For the Evulz!" in full effect.

== Alignment and Society ==
Let's say you're an adventurer and you arrive at a citystate ruled by a count and his personal cronies, who extort the local populace for money and resources, drafts anyone who can't pay their fines into the army and has a secret police that roots out dissenters. The remaining low nobles and merchant class play to his vain nature and do their best to claim political and economic power in the absence of the old ruling family. How do you react? Well, depending on your Alignment, you may feel like...

* '''Lawful Good:''' This city is corrupted by greed and ambition! The common people are being preyed on by the powerful and the civil society crumbles from fear and self-preservation. I could try to support to the poor and help with any issues they may have, or maybe go on a quest to find the real heir to the city. There are no reason to go out there and attack them in the open - they're cruel, but I won't help by adding to the chaos.

* '''Neutral Good:''' This is just not right... These poor people can't live on like this forever. I have no relation to anyone here, so maybe I can help the resistance movement, or make life difficult for the bureaucrats and nobles on a case-to-case situation. Even if I can't make a change now, I won't submit to their cruel system.

* '''Chaotic Good:''' Oppression of the worst sort! These tyrants gotta get what's coming to them... I could ruin their parties, sabotage their movements and maybe even assassinate the count himself! I need to support the people who dare stand against him... And if his cronies and goons come, I'll treat them like the traitors they are! Freedom has a cost after all...

* '''Lawful Neutral:''' Not the nicest city, this... I better listen to the city guard and keep my business to myself, so I can avoid problems. I shouldn't get involved; I can't know if all these harsh measures has a point. How would I like it if someone came and made a ruckus on my hometown, after all?

* '''True Neutral:''' Another city. I've seen so many by now, it's difficult to tell them apart. Someone on the top, some at the bottom and walls and guards to keep it that way. I better just finish my work and move on.

* '''Chaotic Neutral:''' How come there's so many of these wretched hives around? Who cares, there's opportunities here that others may miss... But not me! I'm sure there's someone who needs something smuggled, someone beaten up, something moved out of sight... I'm sure there's loads of options for the enterprising man, such as myself. Still, maybe I should just get what I came for. I'm sure those indentured workers are hungry and may part with the information I need for my quest in exchange for a bit of bread. Poor sods... But hey, they could just go do something about it all.

* '''Lawful Evil:''' It's always a wonder to see an efficient state like this. Sure, it could be prettier, maybe a little less... Direct, but hey, beggars can't be choosers, and they get things done. The Orcs are gone from the forest, the corruption of the old dynasties gone, it's amazing what one can do with a coherent society! Maybe I should see if I can't move up the ladder here... There's got to be some options for an ambitious, loyal and efficient supporter of the realm.

* '''Neutral Evil:''' You can't make an omelet without breaking a some eggs, and eggs sure are broken here... But why stop there? This prissy "My-First-Government" should just throw out the pretense and begin marching that army on the countryside. If anyone should object, they can draw their swords and let their arms do the talking! Now that the people are following the count, why not promote him through propaganda, make public executions mandatory and reward loyal citizens? The sky is the limit!

* '''Chaotic Evil:''' Oh, oh my, this all looks so wonderfully... ''flammable''.

All that is to say, Alignments make sense when seen through the lens of what is normal in society - and in most games, what is considered to be normal comes from our precognition. We expect freedom as good, cooperation to be normal and exploitation as evil, so that's what we call Alignments. That isn't bad; it's just important to understand that it isn't a system that allows for the sort of "Well from my experience, the Orcs are good!" discussions because, from our view, they're clearly evil. In fact, you could replace "Good" and "Evil" with "Normative" and "Divergent" - do you consider sapient rights, morality and general decency, or do you follow your own conceptions of what is right or wrong?

== A Broader Perspective ==
Alright, salt shakers and skub cans aside now.

When creating a character after the alignment system, you can run into the problem of the alignment table being too narrow. After all, in a lot of games and stories, characters aren't just "good" or "lawful" - they can be complex characters with more than one side to them, or with a goal to pursue rather than an ideal, that can lead them to behave very different from what the alignment table offers. This is because the ideals and concepts presented on the table can be interpreted in various ways that might end up harming your character in the long run, and as such may be more viable as a guideline rather than an outright rule, like most elements of tabletop gaming.

Lawful is usually regarded as "I follow the rules of the land", while Chaotic tend to be "I do whatever I want regardless of laws", but it doesn't in fact have to be like that: Lawful doesn't have to mean that your character follows the laws, just that the character has some kind of ruleset or set of morals they follow and generally won't bend from, even if they are self-imposed (such as the rigorous self-discipline of a [[Monk|monk]]). Similarly, Chaotic might mean that your character doesn't care for these limitations and will change ideals on a whim, or not have them at all. Likewise, Good is usually "I help and protect and don't afraid of anything" and Evil "I will kill because I can", but Good could also mean that your character is generally not self-concerned and will happily defend someone else to preserve something (remember, humans are flock animals — we only do good to others if it does good to ourselves, even if that is just the good feeling of doing good things), while Evil can be a character who has a goal they want to achieve by absolutely any means necessary.

Examples using the above method of making a character could be the Lawful Evil duelist who will happily kill a man on the street, but only if it follows his own code of honor, and who is in a [[party]] because he wants to meet stronger foes, or the Chaotic Good mage who one day helps his [[party]] with spells, but turns a character into a rabbit the next, just to make sure the spell works properly when he meets an opponent.

Another point is that alignment is meant to represent ''tendencies'' rather than hard-and-fast stagnant points. A Good character can be pushed to the breaking point and do something Evil, or a Lawful character can agonizingly choose to make a Chaotic decision that goes against everything he believes in to prevent the unthinkable, or an Evil character might find herself doing something selfless because she's not ''that'' evil. Indeed, people acting in ways they normally wouldn't due to pressure and circumstance is where drama comes from. Plus, and this is the important bit, ''doing one act out of alignment does not constitute an alignment shift''. (Unless you're a pre-4e paladin anyway.) The Lawful cop whose heart causes him to make an exception for the hooker who needs to feed her kids, or the Chaotic cop who swears to his dying partner that he'll bring the bad guy in "by the book" don't ''stop'' being lawful or chaotic just because they acted out of alignment once.

Just remember that these things aren't set in stone. Talk with your fellow PCs and the [[DM]] and make sure they understand how you interpret the system and how you use it with your character - you can have loads of fun with unique characters this way. Anyone can make and play a Lawful Good Paladin who is gonna spare the [[BBEG]], but it is harder to make and play the Lawful Good [[Konrad Curze|vigilante who will happily slaughter entire groups of criminals and put them on spires around town as an example of what happens if you mess with the children of the village.]] That said, every alignment also has [[Stupid Alignments|generally agreed-upon points]] where you would be wise not to push too far.

== Alignment, Allegiance and Personality in other RPGs ==
* White Wolf's [[World of Darkness]] games clearly separate allegiance and personality. For example, Vampire: the Masquerade has Camarilla, Anarchs, and Sabbat for the character's basic allegiance (although unlike D&D, these have no metaphysical consequences). All of the World of Darkness games use a shopping list of Jungian archetypes to describe a character's personal code of conduct, described as their "Nature." The games have much emphasis on social interactions, betrayal, deception and general being a bastard, so there's also the archetype they present publicly, called their "Demeanor." Good or evil can be a bit irrelevant when the player characters are all vampires/werewolves/demigods/dead/half-imaginary. Characters that behaved appropriately to their Nature archetype were gained a stronger self-confidence, evidenced by awarding "willpower" points they could spend later to make tasks more likely to succeed.

* White Wolf's [[Exalted]] has the four Virtues: Valor, Compassion, Conviction and Temperance. All are measured on a scale of 1-5 for mortals, but some beings can go up to ten. It describes, respectively, how brave you are, how nice you are, how good you are at sticking to your guns, and how much willpower you can muster to avoid temptation. Two is considered the human average, but since you're (hopefully!) supposed to be some kind of mythical hero, you have to at least three in something to start with.
** Being all the way down at one means you are, respectively, a coward, a sociopathic dick who can't feel empathy, an aimless wishy-washy vagrant, or any flavor of hedonist you care to name. The cosmic spirit of unlikable douchebaggery, the Ebon Dragon, is about the only being with a one in ''every'' virtue.
** Having too much, though, turns you a different flavor of psycho; respectively, a frothing berserker, an unbalanced lunatic who can't stop helping people and won't look at the bigger picture, a zealot incapable of realizing that you're wrong, or an uptight jerk who literally wants to stop everyone else from having fun. Each virtue can override one other virtue, but raising them all high takes up lots of XP and can turn you into a neurotic wreck like the Unconquered Sun, who has a ten in ''every'' virtue and has turned into a burned-out wreck of a deity listlessly squatting in his celestial house playing ''[[World of Warcraft]]'' all day because breaking ''any'' virtue would lessen him and it's really hard to function without repressing at least one in a weak sort of way.

* [[d20 Modern]] uses "allegiances" instead of ethics, indicating the character subscribes to an established code of conduct, or the mores of a social group. Dealing with an NPC with a matching allegiance gives the player a +2 circumstance bonus to social tasks. If an NPC witnesses you violating one of their allegiances, that's a -2 for any social tasks with that NPC evermore. Characters can have multiple allegiances, each providing the +2/-2 when appropriate, but not cumulatively.

* [[RIFTS|Palladium Fantasy RPG]] (and all Palladium games that came later) uses three categories for alignment: Good, Selfish and Evil. These break down into seven alignments: Principled, Scrupulous, Unprincipled, Anarchist, Aberrant, Miscreant, and Diabolic. They added "Taoist" for their Kung-fu games, but nobody used it. D&D fans often enjoy noting that these roughly correlate into most of the same alignments as the classic 9-axis. There is no "True Neutral" equivalent alignment in Palladium, however; per word of god, this was because A: [[Stupid Neutral]] was, well, a stupid idea, and B: anyone who truly did not give a shit about anything (the ''other'' primary description of the True Neutral alignment in D&D) would not be at all inclined to go adventuring. By the game designer's arguments, somebody who's only adventuring to get something they need or want done (your classic "I don't care if the Empire's hurting people, but they'll take my farm if I don't take them out" jerk) would fall under one of the Selfish alignments.

* [[GURPS]] doesn't have alignments. Instead, it's a long list of mental disadvantages you can take during character generation to restrict the character's behavior. Since characters are on a point-buy system, these disadvantages can be traded for other advantages. You could take Compulsive Honesty (-10 point flaw), for enough points to get you Ambidexterity (+10 point advantage), or Kleptomania (-15) for a military rank of Lieutenant (three ranks @ +5).

* [[Warhammer Fantasy]] had five alignments on a linear scale: Law - Good - Neutral - Evil - Chaotic. This was used as a rule of thumb for reactions between people — identical alignments would be well-disposed towards each other, but the further apart alignments are, the more likely things would come to blows. A character's alignment could shift at most one step left or right from where they started. Later editions of Warhammer de-emphasize the alignment system in favor of allegiances and broad personalities.

* [[Dungeon World]] uses alignment as a method for gaining experience points; you choose one of the three offered during character creation. Playing an evil rogue? Get 1 XP when someone else gets in trouble for something you did. Playing a good druid? Get 1 XP when you eliminate an unnatural menace.

* Sitting somewhere between a D&D alignment and a personality test, [[Magic: The Gathering]] has a five color system of magic that also had personality traits wired into make up. For example, red is the color of acting rather than thinking, and they have the most destructive spells and cheapest creatures. Blue, on the other hand, is logical and thinks rather than acts, and they have the most counter spells.

* The [[Star Wars Roleplaying Game]] uses a form of alignment called '''Morality''' which has a mechanical effect, but it only applies to Force users and how they activate their powers, so any other character can behave in whichever manner they choose without penalty. Force users move up and down the Light/Dark scale in a fluid manner which can be incredibly difficult to maintain at the same value from session to session. It has an inbuilt tendency to climb upwards, but can be decreased due to actions on the part of the player. The rules incorporate a hard and fast list of what actually constitutes "bad" and how minor or major it impacts your score, and doesn't really incorporate any level of intention or thought process that goes into the act (except for cases where the character lies), meaning that the GM shouldn't be blamed for hitting the character with a big alignment shift at the end of a session, but character could swing back in the following session just as naturally.
**Wizards [[Star Wars D20]] also used a light/dark system which influenced what powers were available to Force users, but the system was incredibly punishing to players, requiring them to have absolutely no dark side points at all in order to get the best out of ''Light'' powers while causing them to alignment shift every time they even ''used'' a dark-side power, also it risked them losing their characters to the GM if they reach a ''Dark'' threshold determined by their wisdom score. Plus while there was a list of what actions accumulate "dark" points, some of them are subjective and call on GM rulings, and those points are quite difficult (but not impossible) to get rid of once obtained.

* [[Mutants and Masterminds]] avoids alignment and replaces it with the motive category of '''Complications''', of which each character must have at least two. While these can encompass weaknesses (shards of your home planet being deadly to you or your powers not working on wood) and things to protect (most commonly secret identity and friends/family), one must be a '''Motivation''' for why you're out being a hero. These force a character to act a certain way or let the GM hose you when he wants to but, in exchange for the inconvenience, give a [[Action Points|Hero Point]] when it comes up. For most heroes in the intended genre the motive isn't much of an issue, if you aren't protecting the city/fighting evil/whatever variant you call it, you aren't playing the game. Further Complications can be based on personality like being unable to resist the request of a pretty girl and/or flying into a rage at a certain type of criminal.

===Alignments in Real Life===
As long as humans have been around we've tried to sort out ethics, and then put people into categories of "good" or "Evil", "lawful", or "chaotic". For much of human history we've used [[religion|religion]] and [[Herp|race]] as the measuring stick of how we figured this out. During the 20th century, though the former is still widely used (and several alternate methods still crib from it), societies have largely figured out a much better way than the latter (though [[That Guy|some people]] still use that too) to type people's personality or "alignment", thanks to personality tests. Developed by armed forces to ease selection, personality tests are, like RPG game alignments, not perfect; however, they are still a good guide line for describing a person’s personality, and some, like the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, are medically useful when treating mental disorders. One of the most common personality typing systems is the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKnNO5pxRGQ with a rough description of what it is here]. Of course, since people in real life grow and change, so can their personality (and thus 'alignment'), so re-testing is necessary to keep an accurate idea. Myers-Briggs is really a lot like a horoscope, with descriptions so vague and generic they can easily apply to just about anyone. Try reading the descriptions and see how many could apply to you.

Philosophy also offers concepts that resemble alignment. Two major branches of ethics, deontological ethics and consequentialist ethics, broadly resemble lawful and chaotic alignments respectively. Deontologists believe that actions are right or wrong, and that the consequences of the action are irrelevant. Conversely, consequentialists believe that the morality of an action is based on the outcome, that "the ends justify the means". Naturally this tends to be used to justify actions that are clearly harmful to some.

== Gallery ==
Did we mention that alignment charts are a [[meme]]?

<center><gallery>
Image:Alignment.jpg|An alignment chart for gradient alignment tracking.
Image:Lawful Good.jpg|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.
Image:Alignments_Batman.jpg|Batman is a complex guy
Image:Chaotic_Good_V.jpg|"We are legion!"
Image:Chaotic_Evil_Joker.jpg|Cue Mark Hamill laughter.
Image:Lawful_evil_Palpatine.jpg|"Unlimited powah!"
Image:Alignments_oversimplified.png
Image:The_Axis_of_Stupid.png|Of course, idiocy is not exclusive to specific moral conundrums.
Image:Sandwich-alignment-chart.jpg|<s>We are all agreed on this then: A rock is not a sandwich.</s> Somebody mentioned [[Skub]]?
Image:5 by 5 alignment chart by doaspotcheck-d3i5jfy.png| Yes, somoene decided to make it *more* complicated.
</gallery></center>

== External Links ==
* [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterAlignment Character Alignments] as explained by [[TVTropes]]
* [http://mightygodking.com/index.php/category/dd-explains-everything/ MGK made half the Alignment charts you laugh at]

[[Category:Dungeons & Dragons]][[Category:Alignment]][[Category:Game Mechanics]]

Kender

2020-12-30T14:35:51Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* Why Kender are hated so much */

[[Image:Kender.png|thumb|right|"He gave it to me because he didn't wake up when I took it."]]

'''Kender''' are a fantasy race in [[Dungeons & Dragons]]' [[Dragonlance]] setting. They are basically [[Halfling]]s with double-doses of ADHD, kleptomania, and Tourette's Syndrome thrown in, and no sense of self-preservation, as if someone was deliberately trying to take the annoying habits of every [[Chaotic Stupid]] character in the game's history and merge them all into a playable race. No one apparently saw how terrible a decision that was. We're absolutely not making this shit up; the ''Dragonlance Campaign Setting'' itself explicitly says "Their propensity to act on impulse at the expense of common sense makes them reckless in dangerous situations", "Nothing on Krynn is as dangerous as a bored Kender or as terrifying as hearing a kender say 'oops'", "Kender appropriate absolutely anything that catches their eye. Physical boundaries or notions of privacy are both alien concepts to them", "Kender cannot keep secrets to save their lives and happily blurt out intensely personal information about themselves or anyone else", and "Even the threat of imminent demise does not deter kender"; and their racial stats reflect this by giving them a -4 penalty to concentration checks, a +2 bonus on lockpicking and sleight of hand checks, and an immunity to all fear effects. They survive getting the shit kicked out of them only because every one of the little shits seems to be wearing [[plot armor]] which they undoubtedly stole from more interesting species now tragically extinct. Again, we are not making this shit up; this is something that is explicitly confirmed in their racial stats with their +1 bonus on all saving throws.

Most of their fluff involves them stealing things and getting pissed when they are accused of it ("It must have fallen into my pocket"). What fluff doesn't involve theft directly is more focused on how much everyone hates them. Other races' opinions of them range from "annoying pests" to "baffled or irritated by kender behavior" to "thieving nuisances" to "the only good kender is a roasted kender" to "can drive victims to forget years of training and experience, sending them into a rage with only one thought - murdering the taunting kender". Again, we must reiterate, ''we are not making this shit up, these are quotes directly from the goddamn rulebooks''.

You might have noticed that we don't like Kender very much. Indeed, what was supposed to be a comedic foil to the more serious halflings turned out to be an obnoxious foil that reminded everyone of their baby sister's shitty grab-all-your-toys phase. The only person who likes playing Kender is [[That Guy]]. Some are so brazen as to try to play a Kender ''outside'' of the Dragonlance setting. In this situation, feel free to have your PC use lethal force against the offending character, the rest of the party will gladly help you. Don't even allow the little shit to suicide his character; justice must be done and he cannot be allowed to die on his own terms.

They generally cause a lot of [[rage]] in anyone who reads anything about them.
[[Image:1247364875051.png|thumb|right|What the--? I left an image RIGHT HERE. Fucking Kender.]]
Ironically, 2e produced only two other groups that were quite as [[Chaotic Stupid]] as Kender, and ''neither'' of them are as hated. [[Planescape]] gave us the [[Xaositect]]s faction (who do approach Kender-levels of annoying in the eyes of many DMs -- a Kender Xaositect PC is generally regarded as a concept horrifying enough to make a DM's brain explode) and the [[Slaad]] (who were explicitly done up as monsters to avoid and/or kill, so far less irritating by any measure).

Even the other two races of Dragonlance generally hated by DMs and players alike aren't as bad as Kender. The [[Tinker Gnomes]] are generally idiots, but can actually be kind of funny. Sometimes. Plus even the writers at TSR got a little jab at them by noting how ''normal'' gnomes like to hunt down and destroy Tinker Gnome spelljammers in [[Spelljammer]]. As for [[Gully dwarf|Gully Dwarves]], frankly, most people prefer to pretend they never existed, since an entire race of ugly, smelly, hairy, retarded baby-people is the kind of concept that should have been purged with fire at birth.

So, basically they're like young children stuck in the "sticky fingers" stage of development. Except they don't feel guilty about it later. Alternatively, they can be thought of as little Terminators, except that instead of being unstoppable, unthinking, unfeeling machines bent on killing Sarah Connor, they are unstoppable, unthinking, unfeeling machines bent on stealing everyone's shit and getting themselves and everyone around them killed, and the only person that they will fail to get killed is themselves because God hates us and wants us to suffer.

Horrifically, Kender and humans can actually ''breed'' together, creating abominations called half-kender, who inherit the kender knack for sticky fingers but aren't so cutesy that they don't realize that stealing is wrong. How this is possible is a long story, but basically, kender descend from tinker gnomes (making them cousins of [[dwarf]]s, who have the same ancestry), who descend from humans cursed by [[Reorx]]. This is why Krynn is also home to half-gnomes and [[half-dwarf|half-dwarves]].

For those wondering more directly how kender and humans mate, well, beyond some human women giving in to their shota fetishes or falling for the "he's so cute!" air of kender males, most half-kender are actually the result of human men banging female kenders. Why? To put it simply: cute [[loli]] (or [[shortstack]], but canonically kender women are supposed to look like little girls) whose natural instinct to you asking "wanna fuck?" is "hey, sounds fun!" and then dragging you to the bedroom. Although apparently a lot of Krynnish men somehow "don't realize" they're banging a female kender until after they've gotten her pregnant -- there's even a Pre-Cataclysm story featuring a knight who spends the story unknowingly getting close to his own half-kender son, having never realized his mom was a kender when they were together before she left him. Which has the disturbing implication that Dragonlance is a setting full of pedophiles. How the pointed ears don't give kender away is, like all things kender, best left unexplored.

==Why Kender are hated so much==
[[Image:Kender_race_description_annotated.png|thumb|right|500px]]
There's no good reason why Kender should have survived this long anyways:
* Physically diminutive in an environment rife with monsters, with nothing but agility and pickpocketing to defend themselves with.
* Repeatedly referred to as having no concept of fear or self preservation. As if that wasn't bad enough alone, combined with their stupid "curiosity" it would have them licking mushrooms, going near dangerous beasts and leaping into canyons regularly.
* There's no trade nor commerce with outsiders; nobody would let a kender get near a marketplace or bazaar, and even if they were trading one-on-one at village borders, some other Kender would probably steal the wares while you were still discussing the prices or pick your pocket while your back was turned.
* Hell, being pathological liars about theft means any non-Kenders would treat them as little sociopaths.
* There's no construction; the minute you turn your back on any materials, it's gone to be used in someone else's building project. (and while they were stealing your building materials someone else was stealing theirs.)
* No Kender is going to have the attention span to do the boring but necessary work like stockpiling food, learning to write, or digging latrines.
** The only way they could survive a frosty winter is by raiding villages and travelers with their cute smiles and compulsive thieving behavior... leaving any villages that didn't exterminate the tail-less rats starving themselves.
:Fuck! Any villages in cold climates that DIDN'T threaten Kenders with violence to stay the fuck away would just starve during winter and die out from their unwilling charity and insufficient locks on the granary. There shouldn't be any Kender sympathizers left, they should've died out generations ago. Kenders are a plague.
* Basically any civilization composed entirely of kender will last approximately as long as a civilization composed entirely of 4-year-olds.

So, you may ask, just ''what the '''fuck''' were they smoking to come up with these shitheads''? Well, the answer is, alas, fairly simple, in an absolutely tragic way. See, [[Dragonlance]] began as a series of modules for 1st edition [[Dungeons & Dragons]]. The iconic party members were supposed to be the default player-characters for the players to assume the roles of. Thing was, in 1e, [[halflings]] could only take [[Rogue|the Thief class]] (this being a dead-brained holdover from ''The Hobbit'' and Bilbo Baggins, despite the fact that the very sequel to that book, still published decades ahead of 1e, ended up providing two ''very'' good examples of "halflings" becoming Warriors and even one with enough of a nature connection that you could justify Druid), which left the authors of the module/novels, Margaret Weiss and Tracey Hickmann, with a pair of dilemmas that they felt they ''had'' to answer to try and make the wider setting coherent: the first, ''why'' are all [[halflings]] always thieves? Second, how can halflings be all thieves and still be part of the heroic races?

The kender were their answer; an entire race of fey children who basically never grow out of that inquisitive stage of their lives, their incessant need to know why and vulnerability to boredom conspiring with their racial propensity towards sticky fingers to make them constantly picking pockets, opening locks, and generally getting out in the world making a nuisance of themselves. And thusly, all /tg/dom has suffered ever since.

See, here's the thing: while the kender themselves might not know exactly what they are and what they're doing, [[that guy| the smug asshole with a shit-eating grin sitting across the table from you, leafing through your book with cheeto-stained fingers]] absolutely does. Kender are hated because they are all-but purpose-built to enable the absolute worst sort of griefing, and let any and all such pricks throw up a thin but impenetrable forcefield of "I'm just roleplaying! Why don't you just let me roleplay my character?!"

To give them the very small credit they're due, they were the inspiration for WoTC to push halflings into a more adventurous characterization in 3rd ed. If only to ensure that such atrocities as the existence of Kender would never seem a necessity again.

Fortunately, Kender are inextricably linked with [[Dragonlance]], which WoTC has more or less ignored in terms of actual tabletop and /tg/ content ever since the new millenium. Dozens of books have rolled out, but the whole "War of Souls" thing has kind of undercut the series' popularity, and may well have killed it off entirely. The last appearance of the Kender on the tabletop game front was in 3.5, where despite all the novels, the Dragonlance D20 books basically wound up being mostly ignored.

The Kender never made an appearance in 4th edition, and though they were brought up in the initial 5e playtesting, they failed to make the cut for the corebook. Perhaps because of the sheer backlash from the outraged fandom. So, unless a Dragonlance Unearthed Arcana or 5e sourcebook comes out, Kender are likely to never appear on the tabletop game again.

==Kender Weren't Always Bad?==
Hard as it may be to believe, there are people who defend kender. <strike>Kender defenders.</strike>. These people argue that the real problem with kender lies in the writeup they received for 3rd edition, asserting that it unrealistically softened their reputation amongst other races and didn't emphasize the fact that kender are supposed to go after "neat stuff" and not valuable stuff for their collection. Is this the case? Well, here's the original [[Advanced Dungeons & Dragons]] writeup of the race from the "Player's Guide to the Dragonlance Campaign", which was later reprinted with stats for the kender and their unique weapons in "Tales of the Lance". As to whether or not the kender-defenders are right... you be the judge.

For what it's worth, rather than double and triple down on kender's idiot-child tendencies, 5e instead, to the extent that it's addressed them at all, instead tried to focus on their tradition of storytelling and their physiological differences with "other" halflings. Unfortunately, it partially did so by attempting to dilute down the kender's thieving magpie nature via spreading it across the entire halfling race, which... worked, in that it was diluted down. Even if excising it completely would've been even better.

[[Image:2e Kender PC Writeup.jpg|thumb|right|500px]]

==Racial Stats==
What's that? You want to know what their PC stats were? Why? Morbidly curious? Or were you thinking that maybe you could rescue the mechanics from the fluff? Well, whatever, it's your funeral.

===AD&D Statblock===
[[Advanced Dungeons & Dragons]] presented two versions of the Kender's statblock - one in Tales of the Lance, and one in the Complete Book of [[Gnome]]s & [[Halfling]]s.

'''Tales of the Lance Kender:'''
::Ability Score Minimum/Maximum: Strength 6/16, Dexterity 8/19, Constitution 8/18, Intelligence 6/18, Wisdom 3/16, Charisma 6/18
::Ability Score Adjustments: +1 Dexterity, roll 2d6+4 for Strength
::Class & Level Restrictions: [[Fighter]] 9, [[Barbarian]] 10, [[Ranger]] 9, [[Cleric]] 8 (Heathen only), [[Druid]] 8 (Heathen only), [[Thief]] 15, [[Bard]] 6, Handler Unlimited
:::"Heathen" Priests do not worship the Gods of Krynn, and so lose all of their spelcasting abilities.
:::"Handlers" are a kender-exclusive Thief variant. They follow all of the normal rules for thieves, except that they cannot Backstab, they gain no bonus XP for money, and their followers are always more Handlers.
::Infravision 30 feet
::Magic/Poison Resistance: +1 to saves vs. rod/staff/wand/spell/poison for every 3.5 points of [[Constitution]], cannot learn [[Wizard]] spells.
::+1 to attck rolls with slings and thrown weapons.
::Opponent surprise rolls are penalized by -4.
::Fearless: Immune to both natural and magical fear.
::Taunting: Creatures taunted by a kender must make a save vs. spell. If they fail, they fly into a mindless rage for 1d10 rounds, during which time they suffer a -2 penalty to [[THAC0]] and action rolls, and a +2 penalty to Armor Class.
::Thieving Skills: All kender have the following [[thief]] skills at character creation; Pick Pockets 25%, Open Locks 25%, Find/Remove Traps 25%, Move Silently 25%, Hide in Shadows 25%, Detect Noise 25%, Climb Walls 50%, Read Languages 10%

'''CBoG&H Kender:'''
::Ability Score Minimum/Maximum: Strength 6/16, Dexterity 8/19, Constitution 10/18, Intelligence 6/18, Wisdom 3/16, Charisma 6/18
::Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -1 Strength
::Class & Level Restrictions: [[Cleric]] 8, [[Fighter]] 9, [[Thief]] 15, [[Multiclassing|Fighter/Thief]] (9/15) - increase level limits by +4 if the kender has a 15+ in that class's prime requisite
::Infravision 30 feet
::Magic/Poison Resistance: +1 to saves vs. rod/staff/wand/spell/poison for every 3.5 points of [[Constitution]], cannot learn [[Wizard]] spells.
::+1 to attck rolls with slings and thrown weapons.
::Opponent surprise rolls are penalized by -4.
::Fearless: Immune to both natural and magical fear.
::Taunting: Creatures taunted by a kender must make a save vs. spell. If they fail, they fly into a mindless rage for 1d10 rounds, attacking the kender exclusively during that time with penalties of -2 to [[THAC0]] and +2 to Armor Class.
::Thieving Skills: All kender have the following [[thief]] skills at character creation; Pick Pockets 5%, Open Locks 5%, Find/Remove Traps 5%, Move Silently 5%, Hide in Shadows 5%, Detect Noise 5%, Climb Walls 40%, Read Languages 0%

===3e Statblock===
True Kender appeared in the Dragonlance 3rd edition corebook, whilst Half-Kender appeared in the Age of Mortals 3rd ed splatbook. Races of Ansalon, meanwhile, featured Afflicted Kender, and a beefed up version of both the True Kender and the Half-Kender, which are the stats repeated here.

====True Kender====
These are the standard thieving bastard shitheads we've spilled so much electronic vitriol describing.

::Humanoid with the Kender subtype
::+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength, -2 Wisdom
::Small
::Base speed: 30 feet
::Weapon Familiarity: Kender Weapons
::+1 racial bonus to all saving throws
::+2 racial bonus to Spot checks
::+2 racial bonus to Open Locks and Sleight of Hand checks, and are always considered to have Training in both skills
::Lack of Focus: -4 racial penalty to Concentration checks.
::Taunt: +4 racial bonus to Bluff (Taunt) checks
::Fearlessness: Immunity to Fear
::Favored Class: Rogue

====Afflicted Kender====
These are magically cursed kender who appeared during the Age of the Dragon Overlords, after the Chaos War; the first Overlord, Malystryx, chose to settle in the kender homeland of the Goodlund Penninsula, where her magical aura transformed it into a blighted, arid wasteland as she unconsciously warped the land to be more to her taste. This magical corruption, combined with a devastating attack on Kendermore that massacred thousands of the little runts and drove the rest into fleeing, permanently shattered their previous immunity to fear, thus creating a more wary, paranoid, duplicitous and deceitful form of kender.

::Humanoid with the Kender subtype
::+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength, -2 Wisdom
::Small
::Base speed: 30 feet
::Weapon Familiarity: Kender Weapons
::+1 racial bonus to all saving throws
::+2 racial bonus to Spot checks
::+2 racial bonus to Open Locks and Sleight of Hand checks, and are always considered to have Training in both skills
::+2 racial bonus to Climb, Hide, Jump and Move Silently checks
::Favored Class: Rogue

====Half-Kender====
As mentioned above, due to various reasons, kender and humans can make babies together, and while it doesn't happen often, it happens enough. Half-Kender are the "eternal teenagers" to their kender parents' "eternal children", inheriting many of the kender affinity for thieving and lying but also enough conscience and brains to realize that doing shit like that ain't right.

::Humanoid with the Kender subtype
::Medium
::Base land speed: 30 feet
::+4 racial bonus to saving throws vs. Fear
::+1 racial bonus to Spot checks
::+1 racial bonus to Open Locks and Sleight of Hand checks, and are always considered to have Training in both skills
::Taunt: +2 racial bonus to Bluff (Taunt) checks
::Weapon Familiarity: Kender Weapons
::Favored Class: Any

==Lord Stevil's Final Word==
"You also need to know that they are terribly annoying. And that black
dragons will, at every opportunity, carry them off and bugger them until
they die from internal bleeding (with prodigious use of Cure spells to keep
them alive longer). Note that black dragon semen, at the DM's discretion,
does acid damage.

"Assuming there are no black dragons around, or the dragons need help, the
strange effect a kender's presence has on a plane allows Athasian thri-keen
and yagnoloths to gate in from their home realms/planes. While normally
these races have no love for one another, they will team up to capture and
"treat" kender. First, the Asthasian thri-kreen will grip the little
degenerate halflings, often by impaling them through the limbs with their
sharp claws and mandibles. They will use the psionic power Double Pain
while the yagnoloths grease up their large left arms and proceed to fist
the squirming kender, often achieving penetration up to the elbow before
the little bloody bastards split apart. Priests and paladins will often
sense the disturbance and will come to assist in the activity, performing
Cure spells and Resurrections to make sure the little fucks stick around
for another round of yagnoloth-delivered "punch-the-diaphram" (even Good
priests run no danger of losing favor with their dieties for participation in this necessary activity)."

So posted Friday 27 January 1998 to rec.games.frp.dnd.

==External Links==
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20140820220304/http://challengerating25.blogspot.com/2008/12/kendaaagh.html Why kender need to be drowned in a fire.]
* [http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479865-The-Kender-Conspiracy Why kender have survived this long. They are all PCs! RUN!]

{{D&D2e-Races}}

[[Category:Dragonlance]][[Category:RAGE]]

Chaotic Stupid

2020-12-30T14:32:10Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5:

{{fail}}
''"I drop my trousers and piss on the king!"''
[[File:OregonTrail_Hard_Mode.jpg|300px|right|thumb|[[Quest:Oregon Trail|Ford the river? Nah, get this thing up to 88 mph and there'll be a bridge.]]]]
'''Chaotic Stupid''' is yet another of the "stupid" [[alignment]]s. Where [[Lawful Stupid]] characters adhere to a restrictive code of conduct beyond the point of reason, Chaotic Stupid [[character]]s are marked by their refusal to abide by any kind of code whatsoever, even when it would be reasonable to do so. Some Chaotic Stupid characters take this even further, and will actively break whatever the local laws and customs are, because "I'm chaotic, tee hee!" Another common symptom is mistaking "chaotic" for "whatever random action pops into my head", leading to the synonym of ''randumb''. This provides a criterion for distinguishing Chaotic Stupid from [[Stupid Evil]] -- a Stupid Evil character will take actions to cause harm, while a Chaotic Stupid character will just act out for the hell of it.

Much as Lawful Stupid is inescapably linked to the [[paladin]] [[class]], Chaotic Stupid is one of the stereotypical bad ways to play [[rogue]]s.

== Examples ==
* '''[[/b/]]'''
* '''[[Kender]].''' They are "Chaotic Stupid: The Species", as they steal anything that isn't nailed down or touch anything that takes their fancy, and then have the temerity to giggle and act cute about it if things go wrong.
* The [[Xaositects]] of [[Planescape]] are a social faction dedicated to the philosophy that there is no purpose to the multiverse besides pure chaotic whim, so don't make plans and just do whatever the hell you feel like. In other words, a group for whom Chaotic Stupid is basically the ''explicitly recommended course''. Tend to attract hate from DMs only matched by Kender.
* In a rare example of Chaotic Stupid not being a totally bad thing, the forces of [[Chaos]] in [[Warhammer 40,000]] can exhibit some of this when their own chaotic natures cause them to fight among themselves and collapse any army that threatens the status quo. This in turn keeps the galaxy at large from being ''completely'' fucked (only mostly). With that said, sometimes GW takes this a [[Firaeveus Carron|little]] [[Lord Bale|too]] [[Crull|far]].
* Similarly, the [[Orks]] (and the [[Orcs and Goblins]] of [[Warhammer Fantasy Battle]]). The Orks in particular also have the benefit of being specifically designed as war machines, and [[Not As Planned|their creators were taken out before they could enact some form of fail-safe.]]
* [[/co/|Deadpool]] of Marvel comics post-Liefield, but he has a good excuse in that he's ''completely insane'' from <s>brain</s> '''everything''' cancer. He also subverts this many times, and occasionally manages to be actually funny, plus being almost unkillable explains how he endures any negative consequences of his actions.
* Second edition AD&D described Chaotic Neutral ''exactly'' like this. Seriously. Third edition had to specifically revoke this description, making it similar to the problem of [[Stupid Neutral]].
* Malkavians in ''[[Vampire: The Masquerade]]'' are prone to being played like this because every member of the clan is driven irreparably and uniquely insane upon being turned into a vampire. This has led to the term "Fishmalks" originating within the community, after one particularly infamous Malkavian PC and art where one was kissing a fish.
* Olive Ruskettle, a female [[halfling]] thief from the [[Forgotten Realms]]. She stole the name of a famous bard so she could try and usurp his reputation, despite the fact she's a [[rogue]] and not a bard (and is in fact described as being "too chaotic to become one"!), feels that "any constraints are too many", dislikes and enjoys picking on anyone who holds strong but narrow beliefs and views (Lawful alignment, devout religious or moral codes, etc. with a particular dislike of [[paladin]]s), and is generally described as being irrepressible, impetuous, and completely lacking in foresight.
* "[[Penguin of Doom|Katy t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m]]", the supposed author of an old (first seen 2006 or so) [[4chan]] [[copypasta]].
* Charlie Kelly from [[/tv/|''It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia'']], specifically the episode "The Gang Solves the Gas Crisis". Upon being told that he was the "wild card" of the gang, he uses this role as a justification for increasingly erratic behavior, culminating in him cutting the brakes of the van they were in for no other reason than "Wild Card, bitches!"

==How to be Chaotic without being Stupid==
As any alignment thread on /tg/ will show you, defining the "Lawful/Chaotic" axis in a way that is totally orthogonal to "Good/Evil" is very tricky. There is also the matter that any sane character will have some internal code of conduct, so it is not possible to define Lawful as "follows some laws, any laws" and Chaotic as "follows no laws whatsoever". One potentially useful interpretation of that axis that can avoid stupidity or strawmen is to think of Lawful as emphasizing working "by-the-book" for the whole (with the nature of that book separating Lawful Good from Lawful Evil), and Chaotic as emphasizing individual freedom to achieve one's own desires (with the nature of those desires separating Chaotic Good from Chaotic Evil). A way to be Chaotic without being Stupid, therefore, is to determine the character's goals, and have them achieve those goals by whatever method they think is best. This might mean following the rules, if playing nice with the Paladin to stay out of jail is a prerequisite for that goal, but if breaking a few laws is what it takes, then so be it.

As far as that Lawful Neutral (and hopefully not stupid) guy in the party? Remember, you can find something to like about that character too. We're past the days where alignments only hung around with each other. Make a friend. Don't be uptight about chaos. It's not like you're forbidden by a code of conduct to have lawful friends, right?

Littlefinger from Song of Ice & Fire is a good example of a chaotic figure who isn't stupid (although he does eventually get done in by his web of lies). A chaotic figure who isn't stupid should be inscrutable, playing their cards close and leaving people guessing about their actual motives and who's side they're really on. This of course gets back to the problem of orthogonality mentioned before, because a person who's inscrutable is liable to be selfish and thus "evil" (like Littlefinger, who on the surface appears Lawful Evil). But this can be addressed with a bit of moral relativism, making the chaotic selfish for "their side" rather than "themselves". Ultimately the important aspect for chaotic is to be, well... Chaotic. Extreme. Willing to casually kill to fix what could be solved with words, willing to steal what could be afforded, all because it's expedient and because they can.

==How to be Chaotic and Stupid without being Chaotic Stupid==
[[What|Yes, it actually is possible to be Chaotic and Stupid without being Chaotic Stupid.]] An excellent example of how to play such a character is Elan from [[Order of the Stick]]. Elan is a braindamaged fool with a childish innocence who constantly misunderstands situations, but he ''usually'' does not do illogical things just for the sake of being chaotic or random or for other poor excuses like typical Chaotic Stupid characters. Although he is chaotic-aligned, he doesn't have to constantly make chaotic choices to the point of stupidity, and his stupidity mainly causes him to misunderstand or [[fail]] at things. On the occasions when he does do something that would be Chaotic Stupid, it usually is because he misunderstood something. For the same reasons, he also completely avoids being [[Stupid Good]] as well; he does not do stupid things just because they are good. Over the course of the story, he also becomes more mature and shows that he actually can make smart decisions, although he still often misunderstands things.

[[Category:Dungeons & Dragons]][[Category:Alignment]]

Stupid Evil

2020-12-30T14:27:48Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* A Song of Ice and Fire */

{{fail}}
{{Topquote|No Muttley, we can't win fairly. We are villains, ergo we have to cheat!|Dick Dastardly, recognizing his role in ''Wacky Races'' while being unable to avoid playing it. Naturally, the finish line is right behind him.}}
{{Topquote|If you acquire a reputation as a mad dog, you'll be treated as a mad dog; taken out back and slaughtered for pig feed.|Roose Bolton to his son Ramsay in ''Game of Thrones''.}}
[[File:Skeletor.jpg|right|300px|thumb|"Nevermind what I said, just do what I said!"]]
Yes, [[Stupid Good]] has its Evil counterpart. A general trait of '''Stupid Evil''' is doing evil things for the sake of being evil (e.g. pettiness, self gratification, etc.), rather than because they are (morality aside) easy or viable paths towards wealth, power, revenge, or whatever the villain's goal is. This is especially true when a non-evil (or even less evil) way of doing things would work better.

A villain who is truly insane can get away with this sort of thing since what compels them to act in an evil manner is the fact that they have some screws loose, and likewise comedic villains can get away with it because their evil is just a plot device to cause funny things to happen. However, "serious" nemeses and long-term, high-threat villains are usually expected to have a goal and some capacity for rational planning; a villain who takes time out of a busy day to kick a puppy or eat a kitten just to establish evil credibility will probably be treated with derision by players. By the same token, a villain who presents an otherwise seemingly insurmountable threat being undone by a massive fatal flaw - such as pride or hubris - can make for quite a compelling yarn.

[[TVTropes|Compare]] to [[Chaotic Stupid]]. They're not quite the same, but there's often a lot of overlap due the tendency of bad players and writers to mistake "chaotic" with "act like as big of an obnoxious asshole as physically possible".

==Examples of Stupid Evil==
===[[A Song of Ice and Fire]]===
The amount of retarded villains in this series is truly staggering. And yet, despite all of the stupid evil committed by them, [[Grimdark|they were able to secure many victories in the beginning]], even if only because the good guys are either more [[Lawful Stupid]] or [[Stupid Good]]. Ultimately however, most of the Lannisters and their allies, including the Boltons and Freys met their ends in spite of their ruthlessness.

Of course, A Song of Ice and Fire is known for its frequent grey morality, and most Stupid Evil characters have something of an explanation. Even then, you'd be inclined to wonder how far ahead some of them were really thinking, especially in the adaptations - though it's arguably intentional, possibly to demonstrate how [[Not As Planned|a lack of pragmatism fucks people over in the long-term]], especially in a realm so rapidly driven by [[Just as planned|ever-changing politics and schemes]] ([[Skub|or possibly because of bad writing, who knows]]).

'''The Lannisters'''

Lannister-brand parenting and ruling revolves around nepotism, an iron fist and enough money to solve any problem thrown at them. While they enjoy significant successes at first, they also gave birth to some of the most short-sighted sociopaths who rely on their fortune, both material and immaterial, to try and win the Game of Thrones, and all ultimately lose in the end due to both fortunes running short. Examples of the Lannisters' worst offenders:

* Joffrey Baratheon is both very impulsive and sadistic, which is an already disastrous pairing of personality traits to combine with the fact that he's 12 - 15 years old across the books. On the note of not-even-really-excuses, there's also possible mental instability resulting from the fact that he's inbred and his mother is Cersei (more on her in a moment).
** He hires a peasant and gives them a Valyrian Blade to kill Bran Stark - this is one of only a few hundred such weapons in all of Westeros, and an unusual weapon for a common hitman when a common dirk would have sufficed; when that fails, it causes the Starks to suspect the Lannisters. He also kills Eddard Stark to make an example of him, therefore sparking an unnecessary and very costly civil war that went against what his family had planned. Despite that, they still came out on top since they are still standing while the Starks are scattered, due mainly to Tywin and Tyrion being [[Creed|tactical geniuses and strategic masterminds.]]
** He also chooses to ignore his duties and the welfare of his people in favor of satiating his sadistic behavior, even abusing them when they're seeking his help. He regularly abuses Sansa in particular, and threatens to have her killed despite the fact it will reduce her value as a political hostage and (in their eyes) could cause the Starks to kill their political hostage, Jaime Lannister.
** Having no regard for the peasants and working class under your charge is already a bad idea, but is ''especially'' so when there's an impending siege plus a food shortage and tensions are already high. This leads to a riot that causes several deaths when he orders a mass execution after one member of the crowd threw a dung ball at him.
** Even his family isn't safe from his viciousness, occasionally to the point of team-killing fuckery: he has one of his Kingsguard try to murder his uncle Tyrion in the middle of the Battle of Blackwater instead of just simply poisoning him (as Tyrion pointed out) and didn't even wait until after the battle which Tyrion was eseential in. He even calls Tywin a coward. ''Out loud. In front of other people. '''To his face.''''' Luckily for Joffrey they were related, or he would have been struck down. And as what turns out to be a final hurrah at his wedding, he insults his in-laws and his bride at their wedding reception and subjects Tyrion to petty tortures in front of everyone.

* Cersei Lannister, while not as dumb as her son Joffrey (low a bar as that is), is egotistic and paranoid as fuck; if she, for any reason, thinks you might threaten her or her children, even for something as minor as telling her her latest idea is a bad one, you're in trouble. At best, she will view you as an enemy and will be a passive-aggressive bitch to you, and at worst she'll have you brutally tortured to death, even if you're one of House Lannister's allies to whom good relations are vital. On top of all that, she's a contender for Worst Mother in Westeros, and her cruelty drove away even her incestuous lover, Jaime Lannister (which happened much earlier into the books than in the TV show).
** She invited Gregor Clegane (see below) to King's Landing at the same time Oberyn Martell is visiting, despite the fact that Gregor is the reason there's bad blood between House Lannister and House Martell, and the Martells know it.
** After Joffrey died, she went out of her way to rig the trial for his death against Tyrion, despite the circumstances ''already'' being against him - this made him more determined than ever to survive, and tipped off Oberyn that Tyrion is innocent of the crime. This led to the duel between Oberyn and Gregor that ruined the Lannister/Martell alliance and ''nearly'' cost the Lannisters their pet beast.
** She also responded to a satirical puppet show about House Lannister being evil tyrants by having anyone who saw it either fined (up to half of all their money if they're rich) or mutilated (an eye cut out if they're too poor to pay), and then ordering the puppeteers executed. She didn't even mind the play at first - she only took offence because the ending had the Lannisters getting their comeuppance at the hands of a Targaryen. Then, instead of the headsman, she did something worse and handed the puppeteers over to her resident mad scientist for deadly experiments at his request. Ironically, events following this would vindicate the puppeteers for their play (more on ''that'' below).
** Cersei encouraged the worst aspects of her sons; in the case of Joffrey, this is like attempting to put out a forest fire with napalm. Her atrocious parenting, combined with conceiving Joffrey with her brother Jamie AND Robert's own negligence, is the reason Joffrey's such a repulsive asshole. She ignores the numerous acts of cruelty and stupidity of her eldest son, and treats any criticism of him as a personal attack on ''her''.
** She was an overbearing mother to Tommen - her actually half-decent person of a second son - to the point of [[What|trying to make him more like Joffrey]], which inevitably failed and made Tommen a gullible yes-man of a momma's boy. This in turn left them vulnerable to the ambitions of Margaery Tyrell, who tries to drive a wedge between them and threatens her plans to rule as queen regent until Tommen was of age. Cersei also neglected her daughter Myrecella since the patriarchal nature of Westeros royalty meant she was unlikely to get power... despite Cersei regularly complaining about sexism against women.
** She killed a high septon because he was a cat's paw Tyrion put into power to keep the faith in House Lannister's pocket (being a decent but easily manipulated man), because Cersei's paranoia meant she feared that Tyrion was out to get her and that guy was in on it. This leads to a more competent and devout high septon getting into power with ambitions of his own. She then let him raise his own army, creating another player to threaten House Lannister's precarious position and one unbeholden to politics, which leads to her arrest - though in the books he was smart and played Cersei like a fiddle. In context, Cersei's undoing is a good thing - especially for everyone not allied with House Lannister.
** In the TV show, as revenge for the High Sparrow imprisoning her and Margaery taking her place as Queen (which is partly her fault in the ''first place''), she makes the perfectly rational decision to blow them all to fuck using magical napalm while they were at church for a trial. The end result was: Making the High Sparrow a martyr and driving the followers of the faith into a fervor that fuels uprisings; driving Tommen (who was friends with the High Sparrow and loved Margaery dearly) to commit suicide via jumping out a window; and pushing a pissed Olenna Tyrell to withdraw all the house's support from King's Landing and declare for the resurgent House Targaryen alongside Dorne. Cersei and House Lannister now literally had no major allies left in Westeros sans the Freys, who aren't at all reliable and were being destroyed by Arya and the Boltons when their treachery outstripped the benefits.
Unfortunately, she was still one step ahead and easily took out Houses Tyrell and Dorne despite their efforts, using the Iron Bank to buy herself a mercenary force and recruit Euron at the cost of losing Casterly Rock to her rivals (though this was helped by some internal team-killing from Oberyn's widow thanks to the fact the Martell/Tyrell relation are as bad as Stark/Lannister, it's a bloody epidemic in that show).
** Also in the TV show, when Daenerys and her supports come to parlay with Cersei's forces for help against the White Walkers and their zombie armies - showing proof by cutting up a captured zombie with the pieces still attacking - Cersei did the stupidest possible thing and refused to support them, deciding she'd rather "let the dead eat them all". She ignored the fact that this would leave her on the receiving end of a curb-stomp battle from either the aforementioned While Walkers (whose undead army would be bolstered by the dead from Daenerys') or Daenerys' forces AND everyone else grateful Daenerys beat the White Walkers/sick of Cersei. This ultimately comes back to bite her when she kills Missandei and pushes Daenerys over the edge from Lawful Neutral to Stupid Evil as she gives no quarter to anyone in King's Landing and commands the Dorathki, Unsullied and her dragon to rape, pillage and burn down King's Landing and leave no survivors - Cersei and her brother Jamie were crushed to death by the falling rubble. Of course, as will soon be made clear, Danerys was turned into a draconian (hue) powder keg of Stupid Evil herself, but for now we move to...

* Arguably Tywin Lannister: while known for his image of being a deviously competent politician and general, his actions don't hold up to the hype under further scrutiny. His neurotic obsession with protecting his house's reputation leads him to condone and engage in acts of excessive cruelty and brutality that have long term negative consequences, with his patriarchal narcissism ultimately resulting in his death at the hands of his dwarf son.
** Spurned Tyrion out of spite for his unintentional role in his wife's death - she died in childbirth. He did this for Tyrion's entire life, including annulling Tyrion's marriage to a peasant girl by having her gang-raped while forcing Tyrion to watch ''and later join in'' - this act horrified even Bronn, Tyrion's amoral sword-for-hire who'd kill a baby for the right price, saying in Tyrion's shoes he'd have killed Tywin for that, father or not. All this leaves the only one of his children who was both competent ''and'' legally available to inherit Casterly Rock with a burning hatred for Tywin.
** Sent Gregor Clegane after Elia Martell and her kids, planning for the children's death but hoping to use Elia as leverage against the Dornish; however, he forgot what a monster Gregor is and she dies as a result, with House Martell despising House Lannister, and likely setting in motion a possible (though ultimately ineffectual) poisoning with Widow's Blood by Oberyn Martell (It stops up the bowels until the victim dies of sepsis, which may have been why he was on the shitter when Tyrion killed him).
** Ordered Clegane and the Brave Companions/Bloody Mummers mercenary company to run wild in the Riverlands, causing a major agricultural zone for the continent to drop in productivity during the onset of a winter that could last years. Those affected by the rampages of Gregor and the Bloody Mummers also started to join the Sparrows religious movement, creating more opponents of House Lannister that have deep personal grievances with them (such as a peasant innkeeper whose son was murdered by the Mummer's and whose daughter was raped by Gregor).
** Orchestrated the Red Wedding, shredding House Lannister's political image and credibility throughout Westeros - nobody wants to negotiate with someone who doesn't follow the same rules of war as them, like say, honoring a right to hospitality that the entire continent respects. In a bitter stroke of irony, his own grandson Joffrey would be murdered by Olenna Tyrell at his own wedding with Margery to spare her of the same fate Sansa suffered, meaning that everything he did to bring Joffrey to power was all for nothing ''and'' widened the rift between Tyrion by letting him take the fall for Joffey's death, as well as allowing the Tyrells to have an advantage over the Lannisters with help from the Sparrows who as mentioned above, were supported by the Tyrells thanks to the atrocities committed.
** In particular, he berated Tyrion for whoremongering while using prostitutes himself. This is worth noting not merely for the expected hypocrisy, but for the fact that Tywin likely took issue with his ''severe'' lack of discretion more than anything else: what son of a Lannister, much less ''his'' own son, should be so well-known as a skirt-chaser? Then he was founding banging Tyrion's sugar baby Shae; this last hurrah got him killed, as he mouthed off at Tyrion when the latter had a loaded crossbow pointed at him while he was stuck on the toilet and had learnt of his ultimate betrayal (it also led to Shae's death). He also died with the shameful legacy of being found dead on the toilet with his corpse stinking up his own funeral, his daughter being remembered as a Targareyn-wannabe (not a compliment), his grandson being a wimpy tyrant and his oldest son being an oath-breaking team-killing sister-fucker... all while his rivals Ned and Robb were lionized as martyrs.

* Gregor Clegane is a serial killer with a short temper. He's gone through three wives who died under suspicious circumstances.
There's a high turnover rate among the servants at his keep and even animals avoid his chambers. Before this, he maimed his brother Sandor and would've killed him if three men didn't intervene, and he's heavily implied to have murdered his sister and father, despite the father doting on him even when his evil started to become apparent.
** The circumstances surrounding him and his brother are as such: Gregor once caught his brother playing with one of Gregor's discarded toy soldiers when they were children. He took the logical next step of holding his brother's face over a fire, permanently disfiguring that half of his face and mentally scarring him; on top of a case of pyrophobia it arguably made him stagnate into a phase of prolonged "adult childhood" from a developmental disorder, based on this and his other actions.
** Before the story starts, it's an open secret that Gregor raped and murdered Rheagar's wife Elia Martell, even though he hadn't been ordered to do so and she was valuable political hostage. He also killed a baby, and though he'd been ordered to do that, the fact remains that [[Grimdark|he had no qualms about the deed and went so far as smashing his head against a wall]]. This bites him and the Lannisters in the ass BIG TIME later on, though he deserved it.
** After losing a jousting match, Gregor decapitated his own horse, then tries to kill his opponent, Loras Tyrell, and his own brother Sandor when the latter intervenes. Had Gregor succeeded, it's likely the Lannisters would've kissed any hope of an alliance with the Tyrells goodbye.
** The men who Gregor recruits as his hand-picked warriors aren't chosen for their intelligence or resourcefulness, and not even loyalty; they serve Gregor out of fear and desire of plunder, and prize their fighting skills and sadism, essentially raping and torturing random peasants to death for the lulz. This includes the prisoners from the taking of Harrenhal, many of whom were nobility and could have been used as leverage in the war.
** Arguably when, before killing Oberyn, Gregor shouted a confession to his crime of murdering and raping Elia in front of all of the nobles in King's Landing. This would've put House Martell and House Lannister at open war... if the Martells hadn't been already secretly plotting to destroy them, though this ''does'' push their schedule forward and undermine the Lannister's supporters.
** For all that, there is at least some "justification" as to why this guy is kept around by House Lannister. He's a brutal warrior in every sense of the word who projects an aura of fear, and for all his butchery, raping, rage, and blunt cruelty, he's never threatened House Lannister directly and is (for want of a better word) content to be their pet beast. It also doesn't help that he's addicted to milk of the poppy (opium in all but name) since he consumed so much to combat the migraines brought on by his gigantism that it no longer works on him and he's always in an addled state.

* Ramsay Bolton is the son of Roose, a cunning general who manipulated and back-stabbed his way into rulership of the North; unlike Roose, Ramsey lacks any strategic foresight and critical thinking, and is totally fearless and reckless with his actions, which Roose correctly points out will be his downfall if they are not curbed. This ends up coming across as more of an informed attribute due to the TV show's writing, but the result is ultimately the same. [[Fail|Shame he didn't listen to his old man, huh?]]
** He killed his half-brother, despite the fact that this also deprived his father of another heir, which in medieval-esque societies is important; the more offspring they have, the more likely the noble family is to survive.
** His savage exploits are known across Westeros, and he continuously pisses off the other Northern lords by hunting down their subjects for fun, partly inspiring half of the Northern Houses rebel against Bolton rule. He chose to flay Ironborn captives alive, despite promising them clemency if they surrendered, along with turning Theon Greyjoy into his personal eunuch slave. This has ensured that the Ironborn will now fight to the death rather than sue for peace, and contemplate a full invasion of the North instead of merely raiding its settlements.
** In the books, after marrying the fake-Arya Stark (who everyone else thinks is the real one) he tortures her, threatens her and [[FATAL|tries to make her do certain things to his hunting dogs]]. This sets off the Northerners' [[Powder Keg of Justice]], causing an uprising against the Boltons that will likely end with Ramsay's and Roose's heads on spikes.
** He sent an assassin after Jon Snow. As Roose pointed out, Jon was the leader of a well-known and politically neutral organization, whose claim to the throne of House Stark was tenuous at best, and would've gone against his vows, a big deal in Westeros. Killing him would almost certainly create a martyr, or at least demonstrate to the other houses that House Bolton has no respect for neutrality.
** The TV version actually murdered his father in the middle of the war, fed his step-mother and infant half-brother to his dogs, and he'd also raped Sansa Stark beforehand after manipulating an arranged marriage between them. Yet he [[Mary Sue|somehow manages more (and often downright insane) successes than his book counterpart]] in spite of acting like little more than a rabid dog raised in nobility (the infamous "twenty good men" scene where trained killers' armor and expertise suddenly become useless against a half-naked Ramsay comes to mind).
** Unfortunately (for him), his fortune doesn't last, as being a team-killing fucktard ultimately got his own army wiped out before he was beaten to near-death by Jon Snow, culminating in Sansa feeding him to his own dogs -- who were only hungry enough to turn on him because he'd starved them for a week beforehand in anticipation of feeding them the Starks and in his previous hunts he'd deliberately cultivated a taste for human flesh in the dogs.

* Slaver's Bay (aka ''Stupid Evil: The Civilization''), a neo-Ghiscari settlement, is run by a bunch of decadent slave dealers who do nothing besides wax on about how great the 5 millennia dead old Ghiscari Empire was and leave their society in the Bronze Age... in a world one step removed from [[Medieval Stasis]].
** Of the four cities of Slaver's Bay, two of them, Meereen and Yunkai, believe that a bunch of slaves with spears and shields led by fops on horseback or in chariots wearing linen vests and helmets made to accommodate their stupid hairdos constitute a proper army. After Yunkai gets its ass kicked by Daenerys when she brings a half decent army to the field that doesn't run at the first excuse, they decide that it would be a good idea to raise ''new'' slave armies that are [[What|chained together and fight on stilts]].
** One of them, Astapor, trains Unsullied elite spear slaves who obey any order given to them without question, which they sell and use for defense. The Masters of Astapor [[Derp|agree to sell all the Unsullied they've got to Dany exchange for one of her dragons]], and she then proceeds to have the Unsullied sack their city and kill them.
** Admittedly, the prospect of owning a dragon, especially after they’re thought to be extinct for centuries and being the equivalent of a self-replenishing WMD, is an awfully tempting one given how new Unsullied are made each year. Despite that, it’s ''still'' extremely stupid that they questioned neither the possibility of how they can control said dragon (leading to one Master burning to death seconds after grabbing the dragon’s chain) ''nor'' the sense in selling every Unsullied warrior-slave to the same person and leaving none to defend themselves. They also never considered that the Unsullied, though trained to be obedient, might resent the brutality involved in their training ([[Grimdark|which included castrating them at a young age, sending aspirants into the city tasked with killing babies in front of their mothers to prove they'll follow even the vilest orders, giving them a puppy to care for in their first year then making them strangle it to death as a test of loyalty - killing those who fail this test, and making them take new names each day on pain of death - demeaning names like "black rat", "blue toad" or "red flea" - so they can't develop a sense of individual identity]]), and would seize a chance for vengeance which Dany happily gave them.
** For no particular tactical reason, the leadership of Meereen decided to taunt an oncoming army by having child slaves nailed to mileposts to die along the road - a decision which backfires on them rather spectacularly.

* Daenerys Targaryen of the TV show's continuity takes her newly earned spot in this list with a single but major action, through the sheer power of bad writing. In the second-to-last episode, she reduces the entire citizenry to dragonfire kindling through a series of events that Cersei is somewhat at fault for: Dany was already fixing to blow several gaskets because she was rejected by Jon Snow (who is her nephew and not as cest-willing as Jamie) and got one of her dragons killed (by [[What|completely forgetting about an entire fleet of ships]]), and then Cersei slams the final nail in the coffin of her rational thought by having her close friend Missandei publicly killed. This last act is the impetus for Dany to torch 'em all and let the Seven sort it out, throwing away any and all goodwill she would have gained from King's Landing - virtually nobody held much love or loyalty for Cersei, and most of the common folk would have loved her had she not then decided to literally become her father.
** Don't get us wrong, signs of a dark, sadistic side to Daenerys were always there with the signpost punishment and other early signs of a "pay evil unto evil" mentality that cast shadows of doubt onto her image as the liberating Breaker of Chains. But with the way said signs were developed in the show (which is to say, almost ''not at all''), it is beyond stupefying how she went from "Messiah, Breaker of Chains" to truly being her father's daughter in the grand span of ''two episodes''. It's no wonder everyone save the Unsullied (who themselves were retconned enough that they might as well be unthinking automatons now - a cruel irony since a big part of their story was slave-soldiers developing their own identities... though Grey Worm had the excuse of being distraught over Missandei's death since he loved her) and Dothraki (who actually enjoy random acts of slaughter like this) turned on her the moment they saw what she has become and got her assassinated... which created its own plot hole as to why the Dothraki and Unsullied didn't try to avenge her.
** And no, we're not shitting you: in a televised interview, the showrunners were asked why Daenerys didn't do anything about the Iron Fleet, and Beinoff nervously said outright that [[What|she kind of forgot about them]] (more likely the writers themselves forgot about them). That is almost (but just barely not quite) ''Dexter'' finale or ''Supernatural'' finale levels of shit writing, wasting such a spectacular crew and cast on them to boot. If GRRM intends to turn Dany evil and kill her off, he knows what NOT to do in ADOS - assuming TWOW, let alone ADOS, are ever finished.

===Other general examples===
* Strawman villains in poorly written fiction across the board.
* Villains in Saturday morning cartoons and similar fare (e.g. Wacky Races, Captain Planet).
* [[Grimderp|Grimdark as a whole often suffers]] from characters who make things crappy just for the sake of making things crappy.
* [[Edgy|Edgelord]] characters by preteens/actual teens (or users with a similar enough mentality) on DeviantArt (though one could argue Edgelords are more [[Chaotic Stupid]], this is a case by case basis).
* The 'villains' of many fringe-conspiracy theories would be Stupid Evil if they existed as depicted, since their plans undermine their own power bases, have little to no tangible gain, or else draw attention by plastering their logo on everything. It's also weird that despite how cartoonishly evil they are thought of, they don't bother to kill anyone exposing the conspiracies while making it look like an accident. This is probably because there is some overlap with the strawman characters - they just have to be Evil™ enough to scare whoever you're selling your bridge to into action.

===Other /tg/-relevant examples===
* The Sith in the ''[[Star Wars]]'' universe suffer from this greatly, and it's a major reason they keep losing to the Jedi and failed to keep any of their empires intact long-term. In fact, one could argue that they're a perfect case study on why Stupid Evil is a bad idea:
** Firstly, whereas the Jedi code encourages understanding yet controlling your emotions (that way you take them into account, but they don't prevent you from doing what is necessary), the Sith code encourages embracing your emotions and indeed, many of the most powerful Sith like Darth Vader are incredibly emotionally damaged. Thus Sith tend to do things in the heat of the moment and often lack the patience needed to be truly effective. Darth Malak can't find Revan and the Ebon Hawk crew on a planet he has control of? Oh well better just ''level his own planet'' with Star Destroyers, costing himself thousands of workers and soldiers in his psychotic and desperate rush to off his old master.
** Secondly, the Sith code is built on a hyper-Darwinist, "survival-of-the-fittest" structure. While this sounds decent enough on paper, in practice it meant that the Sith ''constantly'' backstabbed each other in idiotic power plays, often leading to Sith killing each other more often than they killed Jedi. Crossing with the "overly emotional" thing above, their lack of patience often led to them betraying each other way before it was beneficial to do so. Darth Bane was the first major Sith Lord to realize how stupid and unsustainable this lifestyle was, and did something about it for the benefit of the Order rather than themselves. His "rule of two" may have led to the Sith population being lower than ever before or after, but at least it kept the Sith order alive and prevented most of them from slaughtering each other in pathetic attempts to gobble up more power.
*** It should be noted that even the Sith themselves violate or weasel their way around the Rule of Two every now and then. Darth Maul was alive at the same time as Dooku & Palpatine (technically before Dooku defected after Qui-Gon's death but it still counts as Palps was already planning to replace him in Legends), and in the EU during Vader's time there were the Force-using "Hands of the Emperor" agents such as Mara Jade. They also have characters like Ventress who aren’t officially Sith Lords, yet are trained just like one. So while it decreases their numbers by a lot, they find ways around even when they actually obey said rule. This again is an aversion of idiocy, as a spare is a good a idea when only two people are allowed.
*** Also don't get the idea that Darth Bane's plan was sensible or not-backstabby. He wiped out almost all of the Sith in exchange for merely a small group of Jedi of the Jedi in an admittedly epic and arguably goddamn hilarious backstab, and part of the reason he did so wasn't because he was sure they'd fall into infighting - rather, Lord Kaan had most of them under his thumb thanks to psychic influence and strength - but because the Sith were acting in very un-Sithy ways, relying purely on strength of arms and unified armies rather than mastery of the Dark Side. Even when there was a very real chance the Sith could've won via these methods, he couldn't have that or slink off and make his rule of two on his own - he had to backstab everyone else first. Then, go figure, his sucessors ended up using those same pragmatic tactics until the Jedi declined enough to almost destroy them in one blow. To be fair, the survivors (read: the assholes who didn't help with the 300-year long galactic dark age after two and a half millennia of almost nonstop war) and their policies lead to the decline of the Jedi Order until they got Order 66'd.
** Thirdly and finally, Sith who engage in too much evil and envelope themselves too deeply in the Dark Side often suffer from an inability to properly sense the Light Side. This alienation of the Light is what lead to the otherwise brilliant Palpatine's death. He alienated altruism and good so utterly that he was not only unable to sense Luke Skywalker's presence during a critical moment, but he was also unable to sense that his apprentice Darth Vader still had some morality in him. Thus he attempts to tortuously kill Luke, and is killed himself when he fails to sense Vader's own paternal feelings and the betrayal they influence.
* The [[Skaven]] from [[Warhammer Fantasy]], whose rival clans always plan on backstabbing each other even if they're all fighting a mutual (and often far worse) enemy. A perfect plan for them involves getting their own enemies and allies to kill each other, until they are the only one left to face the next enemy - keep in mind that "they" doesn't just mean rival clans either; in an apocalyptic scenario, even their personal secretary is only barely less of an enemy than the hordes of the undead. As above, it takes the [[Horned Rat]], their god, as well as the invention of instant communication via the [[Farsqueaker]], to get their fuzzy little asses united...though in the Skaven's case, them being a species of Stupid Evil is entirely the ([[Lulz|hilarious]]) point and their society is explained as surviving in spite of themselves due to a ridiculous breeding rate.
* Humans in science and fantasy fiction often end up being Stupid Evil when the (usually incompetent) writer wants to make a statement about discrimination. According to these tales, humans are apparently overly-panicky and violent psychopaths itching for an excuse to murder the shit out of other species. For instance, in [[Avatar]] the human army is portrayed as a bunch of jingoist lunatics who want to slaughter the peaceful Na'vi for the resources they need, rather than trying to reap long-term benefits by making peaceful contact, in a clear exaggeration of tendencies that might have existed in the colonization era. The advent of [[Humanity Fuck Yeah]] is in part a reaction to this phenomenon.
* Some followers of [[Chaos]], such as [[Firaeveus Carron]], can prove to be this most of the time.
* [[Lolth]] actually enforces Stupid Evil in her worshipers: because of her, the Drow spend 3 quarters of their energy fighting each other instead of defending themselves, which is a really bad idea since they live in an underground city under constant threat of being [[rape]]d by [[illithid]]s and [[beholder]]s. In fact, when things get really bad, she literally has to tell them to get their shit together for a short period of time.
* [[/co/|The Joker.]] Once "merely" a criminal mastermind with a chaotic, unpredictable bent and joke-themed weapons (like a joy buzzer that gives a lethal electric shock and a squirting flower that sprays acid), he devolved in the 90's into a murder-happy rabid dog who kills for the jollies and because [[/d/|he gets off on being punched in the face by Batman]]. Although with ''Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' he's grown out of the stupid phase and is now convincingly chaotic evil for reasons that make Batman look like a whiny rich kid.
* Starscream from [[Transformers]]. He's too ambitious and egotistical to realize how good his position as Megatron's second-in-command is, and so spends much of his time trying to usurp his leader with predictable failure. He also tends to do things on the spur of the moment to satisfy his own ego, as demonstrated in ''Prime'' where he angrily takes credit for killing Arcee's best friend Cliffjumper ''while in handcuffs in front of Arcee'', simply because he doesn't want Airachnid stealing the credit for things he did.

[[Category:Dungeons & Dragons]][[Category:Alignment]]

Stupid Evil

2020-12-30T14:21:03Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* A Song of Ice and Fire */

{{fail}}
{{Topquote|No Muttley, we can't win fairly. We are villains, ergo we have to cheat!|Dick Dastardly, recognizing his role in ''Wacky Races'' while being unable to avoid playing it. Naturally, the finish line is right behind him.}}
{{Topquote|If you acquire a reputation as a mad dog, you'll be treated as a mad dog; taken out back and slaughtered for pig feed.|Roose Bolton to his son Ramsay in ''Game of Thrones''.}}
[[File:Skeletor.jpg|right|300px|thumb|"Nevermind what I said, just do what I said!"]]
Yes, [[Stupid Good]] has its Evil counterpart. A general trait of '''Stupid Evil''' is doing evil things for the sake of being evil (e.g. pettiness, self gratification, etc.), rather than because they are (morality aside) easy or viable paths towards wealth, power, revenge, or whatever the villain's goal is. This is especially true when a non-evil (or even less evil) way of doing things would work better.

A villain who is truly insane can get away with this sort of thing since what compels them to act in an evil manner is the fact that they have some screws loose, and likewise comedic villains can get away with it because their evil is just a plot device to cause funny things to happen. However, "serious" nemeses and long-term, high-threat villains are usually expected to have a goal and some capacity for rational planning; a villain who takes time out of a busy day to kick a puppy or eat a kitten just to establish evil credibility will probably be treated with derision by players. By the same token, a villain who presents an otherwise seemingly insurmountable threat being undone by a massive fatal flaw - such as pride or hubris - can make for quite a compelling yarn.

[[TVTropes|Compare]] to [[Chaotic Stupid]]. They're not quite the same, but there's often a lot of overlap due the tendency of bad players and writers to mistake "chaotic" with "act like as big of an obnoxious asshole as physically possible".

==Examples of Stupid Evil==
===[[A Song of Ice and Fire]]===
The amount of retarded villains in this series is truly staggering. And yet, despite all of the stupid evil committed by them, [[Grimdark|they were able to secure many victories in the beginning]], even if only because the good guys are either more [[Lawful Stupid]] or [[Stupid Good]]. Ultimately however, most of the Lannisters and their allies, including the Boltons and Freys met their ends in spite of their ruthlessness.

Of course, A Song of Ice and Fire is known for its frequent grey morality, and most Stupid Evil characters have something of an explanation. Even then, you'd be inclined to wonder how far ahead some of them were really thinking, especially in the adaptations - though it's arguably intentional, possibly to demonstrate how [[Not As Planned|a lack of pragmatism fucks people over in the long-term]], especially in a realm so rapidly driven by [[Just as planned|ever-changing politics and schemes]] ([[Skub|or possibly because of bad writing, who knows]]).

'''The Lannisters'''

Lannister-brand parenting and ruling revolves around nepotism, an iron fist and enough money to solve any problem thrown at them. While they enjoy significant successes at first, they also gave birth to some of the most short-sighted sociopaths who rely on their fortune, both material and immaterial, to try and win the Game of Thrones, and all ultimately lose in the end due to both fortunes running short. Examples of the Lannisters' worst offenders:

* Joffrey Baratheon is both very impulsive and sadistic, which is an already disastrous pairing of personality traits to combine with the fact that he's 12 - 15 years old across the books. On the note of not-even-really-excuses, there's also possible mental instability resulting from the fact that he's inbred and his mother is Cersei (more on her in a moment).
** He hires a peasant and gives them a Valyrian Blade to kill Bran Stark - this is one of only a few hundred such weapons in all of Westeros, and an unusual weapon for a common hitman when a common dirk would have sufficed; when that fails, it causes the Starks to suspect the Lannisters. He also kills Eddard Stark to make an example of him, therefore sparking an unnecessary and very costly civil war that went against what his family had planned. Despite that, they still came out on top since they are still standing while the Starks are scattered, due mainly to Tywin and Tyrion being [[Creed|tactical geniuses and strategic masterminds.]]
** He also chooses to ignore his duties and the welfare of his people in favor of satiating his sadistic behavior, even abusing them when they're seeking his help. He regularly abuses Sansa in particular, and threatens to have her killed despite the fact it will reduce her value as a political hostage and (in their eyes) could cause the Starks to kill their political hostage, Jaime Lannister.
** Having no regard for the peasants and working class under your charge is already a bad idea, but is ''especially'' so when there's an impending siege plus a food shortage and tensions are already high. This leads to a riot that causes several deaths when he orders a mass execution after one member of the crowd threw a dung ball at him.
** Even his family isn't safe from his viciousness, occasionally to the point of team-killing fuckery: he has one of his Kingsguard try to murder his uncle Tyrion in the middle of the Battle of Blackwater instead of just simply poisoning him (as Tyrion pointed out) and didn't even wait until after the battle which Tyrion was eseential in. He even calls Tywin a coward. ''Out loud. In front of other people. '''To his face.''''' Luckily for Joffrey they were related, or he would have been struck down. And as what turns out to be a final hurrah at his wedding, he insults his in-laws and his bride at their wedding reception and subjects Tyrion to petty tortures in front of everyone.

* Cersei Lannister, while not as dumb as her son Joffrey (low a bar as that is), is egotistic and paranoid as fuck; if she, for any reason, thinks you might threaten her or her children, even for something as minor as telling her her latest idea is a bad one, you're in trouble. At best, she will view you as an enemy and will be a passive-aggressive bitch to you, and at worst she'll have you brutally tortured to death, even if you're one of House Lannister's allies to whom good relations are vital. On top of all that, she's a contender for Worst Mother in Westeros, and her cruelty drove away even her incestuous lover, Jaime Lannister (which happened much earlier into the books than in the TV show).
** She invited Gregor Clegane (see below) to King's Landing at the same time Oberyn Martell is visiting, despite the fact that Gregor is the reason there's bad blood between House Lannister and House Martell, and the Martells know it.
** After Joffrey died, she went out of her way to rig the trial for his death against Tyrion, despite the circumstances ''already'' being against him - this made him more determined than ever to survive, and tipped off Oberyn that Tyrion is innocent of the crime. This led to the duel between Oberyn and Gregor that ruined the Lannister/Martell alliance and ''nearly'' cost the Lannisters their pet beast.
** She also responded to a satirical puppet show about House Lannister being evil tyrants by having anyone who saw it either fined (up to half of all their money if they're rich) or mutilated (an eye cut out if they're too poor to pay), and then ordering the puppeteers executed. She didn't even mind the play at first - she only took offence because the ending had the Lannisters getting their comeuppance at the hands of a Targaryen. Then, instead of the headsman, she did something worse and handed the puppeteers over to her resident mad scientist for deadly experiments at his request. Ironically, events following this would vindicate the puppeteers for their play (more on ''that'' below).
** Cersei encouraged the worst aspects of her sons; in the case of Joffrey, this is like attempting to put out a forest fire with napalm. Her atrocious parenting, combined with conceiving Joffrey with her brother Jamie AND Robert's own negligence, is the reason Joffrey's such a repulsive asshole. She ignores the numerous acts of cruelty and stupidity of her eldest son, and treats any criticism of him as a personal attack on ''her''.
** She was an overbearing mother to Tommen - her actually half-decent person of a second son - to the point of [[What|trying to make him more like Joffrey]], which inevitably failed and made Tommen a gullible yes-man of a momma's boy. This in turn left them vulnerable to the ambitions of Margaery Tyrell, who tries to drive a wedge between them and threatens her plans to rule as queen regent until Tommen was of age. Cersei also neglected her daughter Myrecella since the patriarchal nature of Westeros royalty meant she was unlikely to get power... despite Cersei regularly complaining about sexism against women.
** She killed a high septon because he was a cat's paw Tyrion put into power to keep the faith in House Lannister's pocket (being a decent but easily manipulated man), because Cersei's paranoia meant she feared that Tyrion was out to get her and that guy was in on it. This leads to a more competent and devout high septon getting into power with ambitions of his own. She then let him raise his own army, creating another player to threaten House Lannister's precarious position and one unbeholden to politics, which leads to her arrest - though in the books he was smart and played Cersei like a fiddle. In context, Cersei's undoing is a good thing - especially for everyone not allied with House Lannister.
** In the TV show, as revenge for the High Sparrow imprisoning her and Margaery taking her place as Queen (which is partly her fault in the ''first place''), she makes the perfectly rational decision to blow them all to fuck using magical napalm while they were at church for a trial. The end result was: Making the High Sparrow a martyr and driving the followers of the faith into a fervor that fuels uprisings; driving Tommen (who was friends with the High Sparrow and loved Margaery dearly) to commit suicide via jumping out a window; and pushing a pissed Olenna Tyrell to withdraw all the house's support from King's Landing and declare for the resurgent House Targaryen alongside Dorne. Cersei and House Lannister now literally had no major allies left in Westeros sans the Freys, who aren't at all reliable and were being destroyed by Arya and the Boltons when their treachery outstripped the benefits.
Unfortunately, she was still one step ahead and easily took out Houses Tyrell and Dorne despite their efforts, using the Iron Bank to buy herself a mercenary force and recruit Euron at the cost of losing Casterly Rock to her rivals (though this was helped by some internal team-killing from Oberyn's widow thanks to the fact the Martell/Tyrell relation are as bad as Stark/Lannister, it's a bloody epidemic in that show).
** Also in the TV show, when Daenerys and her supports come to parlay with Cersei's forces for help against the White Walkers and their zombie armies - showing proof by cutting up a captured zombie with the pieces still attacking - Cersei did the stupidest possible thing and refused to support them, deciding she'd rather "let the dead eat them all". She ignored the fact that this would leave her on the receiving end of a curb-stomp battle from either the aforementioned While Walkers (whose undead army would be bolstered by the dead from Daenerys') or Daenerys' forces AND everyone else grateful Daenerys beat the White Walkers/sick of Cersei. This ultimately comes back to bite her when she kills Missandei and pushes Daenerys over the edge from Lawful Neutral to Stupid Evil as she gives no quarter to anyone in King's Landing and commands the Dorathki, Unsullied and her dragon to rape, pillage and burn down King's Landing and leave no survivors - Cersei and her brother Jamie were crushed to death by the falling rubble. Of course, as will soon be made clear, Danerys was turned into a draconian (hue) powder keg of Stupid Evil herself, but for now we move to...

* Arguably Tywin Lannister: while known for his image of being a deviously competent politician and general, his actions don't hold up to the hype under further scrutiny. His neurotic obsession with protecting his house's reputation leads him to condone and engage in acts of excessive cruelty and brutality that have long term negative consequences, with his patriarchal narcissism ultimately resulting in his death at the hands of his dwarf son.
** Spurned Tyrion out of spite for his unintentional role in his wife's death - she died in childbirth. He did this for Tyrion's entire life, including annulling Tyrion's marriage to a peasant girl by having her gang-raped while forcing Tyrion to watch ''and later join in'' - this act horrified even Bronn, Tyrion's amoral sword-for-hire who'd kill a baby for the right price, saying in Tyrion's shoes he'd have killed Tywin for that, father or not. All this leaves the only one of his children who was both competent ''and'' legally available to inherit Casterly Rock with a burning hatred for Tywin.
** Sent Gregor Clegane after Elia Martell and her kids, planning for the children's death but hoping to use Elia as leverage against the Dornish; however, he forgot what a monster Gregor is and she dies as a result, with House Martell despising House Lannister, and likely setting in motion a possible (though ultimately ineffectual) poisoning with Widow's Blood by Oberyn Martell (It stops up the bowels until the victim dies of sepsis, which may have been why he was on the shitter when Tyrion killed him).
** Ordered Clegane and the Brave Companions/Bloody Mummers mercenary company to run wild in the Riverlands, causing a major agricultural zone for the continent to drop in productivity during the onset of a winter that could last years. Those affected by the rampages of Gregor and the Bloody Mummers also started to join the Sparrows religious movement, creating more opponents of House Lannister that have deep personal grievances with them (such as a peasant innkeeper whose son was murdered by the Mummer's and whose daughter was raped by Gregor).
** Orchestrated the Red Wedding, shredding House Lannister's political image and credibility throughout Westeros - nobody wants to negotiate with someone who doesn't follow the same rules of war as them, like say, honoring a right to hospitality that the entire continent respects. In a bitter stroke of irony, his own grandson Joffrey would be murdered by Olenna Tyrell at his own wedding with Margery to spare her of the same fate Sansa suffered, meaning that everything he did to bring Joffrey to power was all for nothing ''and'' widened the rift between Tyrion by letting him take the fall for Joffey's death, as well as allowing the Tyrells to have an advantage over the Lannisters with help from the Sparrows who as mentioned above, were supported by the Tyrells thanks to the atrocities committed.
** In particular, he berated Tyrion for whoremongering while using prostitutes himself. This is worth noting not merely for the expected hypocrisy, but for the fact that Tywin likely took issue with his ''severe'' lack of discretion more than anything else: what son of a Lannister, much less ''his'' own son, should be so well-known as a skirt-chaser? Then he was founding banging Tyrion's sugar baby Shae; this last hurrah got him killed, as he mouthed off at Tyrion when the latter had a loaded crossbow pointed at him while he was stuck on the toilet and had learnt of his ultimate betrayal (it also led to Shae's death). He also died with the shameful legacy of being found dead on the toilet with his corpse stinking up his own funeral, his daughter being remembered as a Targareyn-wannabe (not a compliment), his grandson being a wimpy tyrant and his oldest son being an oath-breaking team-killing sister-fucker... all while his rivals Ned and Robb were lionized as martyrs.

* Gregor Clegane is a serial killer with a short temper. He's gone through three wives who died under suspicious circumstances.
There's a high turnover rate among the servants at his keep and even animals avoid his chambers. Before this, he maimed his brother Sandor and would've killed him if three men didn't intervene, and he's heavily implied to have murdered his sister and father, despite the father doting on him even when his evil started to become apparent.
** The circumstances surrounding him and his brother are as such: Gregor once caught his brother playing with one of Gregor's discarded toy soldiers when they were children. He took the logical next step of holding his brother's face over a fire, permanently disfiguring that half of his face and mentally scarring him; on top of a case of pyrophobia it arguably made him stagnate into a phase of prolonged "adult childhood" from a developmental disorder, based on this and his other actions.
** Before the story starts, it's an open secret that Gregor raped and murdered Rheagar's wife Elia Martell, even though he hadn't been ordered to do so and she was valuable political hostage. He also killed a baby, and though he'd been ordered to do that, the fact remains that [[Grimdark|he had no qualms about the deed and went so far as smashing his head against a wall]]. This bites him and the Lannisters in the ass BIG TIME later on, though he deserved it.
** After losing a jousting match, Gregor decapitated his own horse, then tries to kill his opponent, Loras Tyrell, and his own brother Sandor when the latter intervenes. Had Gregor succeeded, it's likely the Lannisters would've kissed any hope of an alliance with the Tyrells goodbye.
** The men who Gregor recruits as his hand-picked warriors aren't chosen for their intelligence or resourcefulness, and not even loyalty; they serve Gregor out of fear and desire of plunder, and prize their fighting skills and sadism, essentially raping and torturing random peasants to death for the lulz. This includes the prisoners from the taking of Harrenhal, many of whom were nobility and could have been used as leverage in the war.
** Arguably when, before killing Oberyn, Gregor shouted a confession to his crime of murdering and raping Elia in front of all of the nobles in King's Landing. This would've put House Martell and House Lannister at open war... if the Martells hadn't been already secretly plotting to destroy them, though this ''does'' push their schedule forward and undermine the Lannister's supporters.
** For all that, there is at least some "justification" as to why this guy is kept around by House Lannister. He's a brutal warrior in every sense of the word who projects an aura of fear, and for all his butchery, raping, rage, and blunt cruelty, he's never threatened House Lannister directly and is (for want of a better word) content to be their pet beast. It also doesn't help that he's addicted to milk of the poppy (opium in all but name) since he consumed so much to combat the migraines brought on by his gigantism that it no longer works on him and he's always in an addled state.

* Ramsay Bolton is the son of Roose, a cunning general who manipulated and back-stabbed his way into rulership of the North; unlike Roose, Ramsey lacks any strategic foresight and critical thinking, and is totally fearless and reckless with his actions, which Roose correctly points out will be his downfall if they are not curbed. This ends up coming across as more of an informed attribute due to the TV show's writing, but the result is ultimately the same. [[Fail|Shame he didn't listen to his old man, huh?]]
** He killed his half-brother, despite the fact that this also deprived his father of another heir, which in medieval-esque societies is important; the more offspring they have, the more likely the noble family is to survive.
** His savage exploits are known across Westeros, and he continuously pisses off the other Northern lords by hunting down their subjects for fun, partly inspiring half of the Northern Houses rebel against Bolton rule. He chose to flay Ironborn captives alive, despite promising them clemency if they surrendered, along with turning Theon Greyjoy into his personal eunuch slave. This has ensured that the Ironborn will now fight to the death rather than sue for peace, and contemplate a full invasion of the North instead of merely raiding its settlements.
** In the books, after marrying the fake-Arya Stark (who everyone else thinks is the real one) he tortures her, threatens her and [[FATAL|tries to make her do certain things to his hunting dogs]]. This sets off the Northerners' [[Powder Keg of Justice]], causing an uprising against the Boltons that will likely end with Ramsay's and Roose's heads on spikes.
** He sent an assassin after Jon Snow. As Roose pointed out, Jon was the leader of a well-known and politically neutral organization, whose claim to the throne of House Stark was tenuous at best, and would've gone against his vows, a big deal in Westeros. Killing him would almost certainly create a martyr, or at least demonstrate to the other houses that House Bolton has no respect for neutrality.
** The TV version actually murdered his father in the middle of the war, fed his step-mother and infant half-brother to his dogs, and he'd also raped Sansa Stark beforehand after manipulating an arranged marriage between them. Yet he [[Mary Sue|somehow manages more (and often downright insane) successes than his book counterpart]] in spite of acting like little more than a rabid dog raised in nobility (the infamous "twenty good men" scene where trained killers' armor and expertise suddenly become useless against a half-naked Ramsay comes to mind).
** Unfortunately (for him), his fortune doesn't last, as being a team-killing fucktard ultimately got his own army wiped out before he was beaten to near-death by Jon Snow, culminating in Sansa feeding him to his own dogs -- who were only hungry enough to turn on him because he'd starved them for a week beforehand in anticipation of feeding them the Starks and in his previous hunts he'd deliberately cultivated a taste for human flesh in the dogs.

* Slaver's Bay (aka ''Stupid Evil: The Civilization''), a neo-Ghiscari settlement, is run by a bunch of decadent slave dealers who do nothing besides wax on about how great the 5 millennia dead old Ghiscari Empire was and leave their society in the Bronze Age... in a world one step removed from [[Medieval Stasis]].
** Of the four cities of Slaver's Bay, two of them, Meereen and Yunkai, believe that a bunch of slaves with spears and shields led by fops on horseback or in chariots wearing linen vests and helmets made to accommodate their stupid hairdos constitute a proper army. After Yunkai gets its ass kicked by Daenerys when she brings a half decent army to the field that doesn't run at the first excuse, they decide that it would be a good idea to raise ''new'' slave armies that are [[What|chained together and fight on stilts]].
** One of them, Astapor, trains Unsullied elite spear slaves who obey any order given to them without question, which they sell and use for defense. The Masters of Astapor [[Derp|agree to sell all the Unsullied they've got to Dany exchange for one of her dragons]], and she then proceeds to have the Unsullied sack their city and kill them.
** Admittedly, the prospect of owning a dragon, especially after they’re thought to be extinct for centuries and being the equivalent of a self-replenishing WMD, is an awfully tempting one given how new Unsullied are made each year. Despite that, it’s ''still'' extremely stupid that they questioned neither the possibility of how they can control said dragon (leading to one Master burning to death seconds after grabbing the dragon’s chain) ''nor'' the sense in selling every Unsullied warrior-slave to the same person and leaving none to defend themselves. They also never considered that the Unsullied, though trained to be obedient, might resent the brutality involved in their training ([[Grimdark|which included castrating them at a young age, sending aspirants into the city tasked with killing babies in front of their mothers to prove they'll follow even the vilest orders, giving them a puppy to care for in their first year then making them strangle it to death as a test of loyalty - killing those who fail this test, and making them take new names each day on pain of death - demeaning names like "black rat", "blue toad" or "red flea" - so they can't develop a sense of individual identity]]), and would seize a chance for vengeance which Dany happily gave them.
** For no particular tactical reason, the leadership of Meereen decided to taunt an oncoming army by having child slaves nailed to mileposts to die along the road - a decision which backfires on them rather spectacularly.

* Daenerys Targaryen of the TV show's continuity takes her newly earned spot in this list with a single but major action, through the sheer power of bad writing. In the second-to-last episode, she reduces the entire citizenry to dragonfire kindling through a series of events that Cersei is somewhat at fault for: Dany was already fixing to blow several gaskets because she was rejected by Jon Snow (who is her nephew and not as cest-willing as Jamie) and got one of her dragons killed (by [[What|completely forgetting about an entire fleet of ships]]), and then Cersei slams the final nail in the coffin of her rational thought by having her close friend Missandei killed. This last act is the impetus for Dany to torch 'em all and let the Seven sort it out, throwing away any and all goodwill she would have gained from King's Landing - virtually nobody held much love or loyalty for Cersei, and most of the common folk would have loved her had she not then decided to literally become her father.
** Don't get us wrong, signs of a dark, sadistic side to Daenerys were always there with the signpost punishment and other early signs of a "pay evil unto evil" mentality that cast shadows of doubt onto her image as the liberating Breaker of Chains. But with the way said signs were developed in the show (which is to say, almost ''not at all''), it is beyond stupefying how she went from "Messiah, Breaker of Chains" to truly being her father's daughter in the grand span of ''two episodes''. It's no wonder everyone save the Unsullied (who themselves were retconned enough that they might as well be unthinking automatons now, though Grey Worm had the excuse of being distraught over Missandei's death) and Dothraki (who actually enjoy random acts of slaughter like this) turned on her the moment they saw what she has become and got her assassinated.
** And no, we're not shitting you: in a televised interview, the showrunners were asked why Daenerys didn't do anything about the Iron Fleet, and Beinoff nervously said outright that [[What|she kind of forgot about them]] (more likely the writers themselves forgot about them). That is almost (but just barely not quite) '''Dexter'' or ''Supernatural'' finale' levels of shit writing, wasted at the very end on such a spectacular crew and cast to boot. If GRRM intends to turn Dany evil and kill her off, he knows what NOT to do in ADOS - assuming TWOW, let alone ADOS, are ever finished.

===Other general examples===
* Strawman villains in poorly written fiction across the board.
* Villains in Saturday morning cartoons and similar fare (e.g. Wacky Races, Captain Planet).
* [[Grimderp|Grimdark as a whole often suffers]] from characters who make things crappy just for the sake of making things crappy.
* [[Edgy|Edgelord]] characters by preteens/actual teens (or users with a similar enough mentality) on DeviantArt (though one could argue Edgelords are more [[Chaotic Stupid]], this is a case by case basis).
* The 'villains' of many fringe-conspiracy theories would be Stupid Evil if they existed as depicted, since their plans undermine their own power bases, have little to no tangible gain, or else draw attention by plastering their logo on everything. It's also weird that despite how cartoonishly evil they are thought of, they don't bother to kill anyone exposing the conspiracies while making it look like an accident. This is probably because there is some overlap with the strawman characters - they just have to be Evil™ enough to scare whoever you're selling your bridge to into action.

===Other /tg/-relevant examples===
* The Sith in the ''[[Star Wars]]'' universe suffer from this greatly, and it's a major reason they keep losing to the Jedi and failed to keep any of their empires intact long-term. In fact, one could argue that they're a perfect case study on why Stupid Evil is a bad idea:
** Firstly, whereas the Jedi code encourages understanding yet controlling your emotions (that way you take them into account, but they don't prevent you from doing what is necessary), the Sith code encourages embracing your emotions and indeed, many of the most powerful Sith like Darth Vader are incredibly emotionally damaged. Thus Sith tend to do things in the heat of the moment and often lack the patience needed to be truly effective. Darth Malak can't find Revan and the Ebon Hawk crew on a planet he has control of? Oh well better just ''level his own planet'' with Star Destroyers, costing himself thousands of workers and soldiers in his psychotic and desperate rush to off his old master.
** Secondly, the Sith code is built on a hyper-Darwinist, "survival-of-the-fittest" structure. While this sounds decent enough on paper, in practice it meant that the Sith ''constantly'' backstabbed each other in idiotic power plays, often leading to Sith killing each other more often than they killed Jedi. Crossing with the "overly emotional" thing above, their lack of patience often led to them betraying each other way before it was beneficial to do so. Darth Bane was the first major Sith Lord to realize how stupid and unsustainable this lifestyle was, and did something about it for the benefit of the Order rather than themselves. His "rule of two" may have led to the Sith population being lower than ever before or after, but at least it kept the Sith order alive and prevented most of them from slaughtering each other in pathetic attempts to gobble up more power.
*** It should be noted that even the Sith themselves violate or weasel their way around the Rule of Two every now and then. Darth Maul was alive at the same time as Dooku & Palpatine (technically before Dooku defected after Qui-Gon's death but it still counts as Palps was already planning to replace him in Legends), and in the EU during Vader's time there were the Force-using "Hands of the Emperor" agents such as Mara Jade. They also have characters like Ventress who aren’t officially Sith Lords, yet are trained just like one. So while it decreases their numbers by a lot, they find ways around even when they actually obey said rule. This again is an aversion of idiocy, as a spare is a good a idea when only two people are allowed.
*** Also don't get the idea that Darth Bane's plan was sensible or not-backstabby. He wiped out almost all of the Sith in exchange for merely a small group of Jedi of the Jedi in an admittedly epic and arguably goddamn hilarious backstab, and part of the reason he did so wasn't because he was sure they'd fall into infighting - rather, Lord Kaan had most of them under his thumb thanks to psychic influence and strength - but because the Sith were acting in very un-Sithy ways, relying purely on strength of arms and unified armies rather than mastery of the Dark Side. Even when there was a very real chance the Sith could've won via these methods, he couldn't have that or slink off and make his rule of two on his own - he had to backstab everyone else first. Then, go figure, his sucessors ended up using those same pragmatic tactics until the Jedi declined enough to almost destroy them in one blow. To be fair, the survivors (read: the assholes who didn't help with the 300-year long galactic dark age after two and a half millennia of almost nonstop war) and their policies lead to the decline of the Jedi Order until they got Order 66'd.
** Thirdly and finally, Sith who engage in too much evil and envelope themselves too deeply in the Dark Side often suffer from an inability to properly sense the Light Side. This alienation of the Light is what lead to the otherwise brilliant Palpatine's death. He alienated altruism and good so utterly that he was not only unable to sense Luke Skywalker's presence during a critical moment, but he was also unable to sense that his apprentice Darth Vader still had some morality in him. Thus he attempts to tortuously kill Luke, and is killed himself when he fails to sense Vader's own paternal feelings and the betrayal they influence.
* The [[Skaven]] from [[Warhammer Fantasy]], whose rival clans always plan on backstabbing each other even if they're all fighting a mutual (and often far worse) enemy. A perfect plan for them involves getting their own enemies and allies to kill each other, until they are the only one left to face the next enemy - keep in mind that "they" doesn't just mean rival clans either; in an apocalyptic scenario, even their personal secretary is only barely less of an enemy than the hordes of the undead. As above, it takes the [[Horned Rat]], their god, as well as the invention of instant communication via the [[Farsqueaker]], to get their fuzzy little asses united...though in the Skaven's case, them being a species of Stupid Evil is entirely the ([[Lulz|hilarious]]) point and their society is explained as surviving in spite of themselves due to a ridiculous breeding rate.
* Humans in science and fantasy fiction often end up being Stupid Evil when the (usually incompetent) writer wants to make a statement about discrimination. According to these tales, humans are apparently overly-panicky and violent psychopaths itching for an excuse to murder the shit out of other species. For instance, in [[Avatar]] the human army is portrayed as a bunch of jingoist lunatics who want to slaughter the peaceful Na'vi for the resources they need, rather than trying to reap long-term benefits by making peaceful contact, in a clear exaggeration of tendencies that might have existed in the colonization era. The advent of [[Humanity Fuck Yeah]] is in part a reaction to this phenomenon.
* Some followers of [[Chaos]], such as [[Firaeveus Carron]], can prove to be this most of the time.
* [[Lolth]] actually enforces Stupid Evil in her worshipers: because of her, the Drow spend 3 quarters of their energy fighting each other instead of defending themselves, which is a really bad idea since they live in an underground city under constant threat of being [[rape]]d by [[illithid]]s and [[beholder]]s. In fact, when things get really bad, she literally has to tell them to get their shit together for a short period of time.
* [[/co/|The Joker.]] Once "merely" a criminal mastermind with a chaotic, unpredictable bent and joke-themed weapons (like a joy buzzer that gives a lethal electric shock and a squirting flower that sprays acid), he devolved in the 90's into a murder-happy rabid dog who kills for the jollies and because [[/d/|he gets off on being punched in the face by Batman]]. Although with ''Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' he's grown out of the stupid phase and is now convincingly chaotic evil for reasons that make Batman look like a whiny rich kid.
* Starscream from [[Transformers]]. He's too ambitious and egotistical to realize how good his position as Megatron's second-in-command is, and so spends much of his time trying to usurp his leader with predictable failure. He also tends to do things on the spur of the moment to satisfy his own ego, as demonstrated in ''Prime'' where he angrily takes credit for killing Arcee's best friend Cliffjumper ''while in handcuffs in front of Arcee'', simply because he doesn't want Airachnid stealing the credit for things he did.

[[Category:Dungeons & Dragons]][[Category:Alignment]]

Stupid Evil

2020-12-30T14:18:17Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* A Song of Ice and Fire */

{{fail}}
{{Topquote|No Muttley, we can't win fairly. We are villains, ergo we have to cheat!|Dick Dastardly, recognizing his role in ''Wacky Races'' while being unable to avoid playing it. Naturally, the finish line is right behind him.}}
{{Topquote|If you acquire a reputation as a mad dog, you'll be treated as a mad dog; taken out back and slaughtered for pig feed.|Roose Bolton to his son Ramsay in ''Game of Thrones''.}}
[[File:Skeletor.jpg|right|300px|thumb|"Nevermind what I said, just do what I said!"]]
Yes, [[Stupid Good]] has its Evil counterpart. A general trait of '''Stupid Evil''' is doing evil things for the sake of being evil (e.g. pettiness, self gratification, etc.), rather than because they are (morality aside) easy or viable paths towards wealth, power, revenge, or whatever the villain's goal is. This is especially true when a non-evil (or even less evil) way of doing things would work better.

A villain who is truly insane can get away with this sort of thing since what compels them to act in an evil manner is the fact that they have some screws loose, and likewise comedic villains can get away with it because their evil is just a plot device to cause funny things to happen. However, "serious" nemeses and long-term, high-threat villains are usually expected to have a goal and some capacity for rational planning; a villain who takes time out of a busy day to kick a puppy or eat a kitten just to establish evil credibility will probably be treated with derision by players. By the same token, a villain who presents an otherwise seemingly insurmountable threat being undone by a massive fatal flaw - such as pride or hubris - can make for quite a compelling yarn.

[[TVTropes|Compare]] to [[Chaotic Stupid]]. They're not quite the same, but there's often a lot of overlap due the tendency of bad players and writers to mistake "chaotic" with "act like as big of an obnoxious asshole as physically possible".

==Examples of Stupid Evil==
===[[A Song of Ice and Fire]]===
The amount of retarded villains in this series is truly staggering. And yet, despite all of the stupid evil committed by them, [[Grimdark|they were able to secure many victories in the beginning]], even if only because the good guys are either more [[Lawful Stupid]] or [[Stupid Good]]. Ultimately however, most of the Lannisters and their allies, including the Boltons and Freys met their ends in spite of their ruthlessness.

Of course, A Song of Ice and Fire is known for its frequent grey morality, and most Stupid Evil characters have something of an explanation. Even then, you'd be inclined to wonder how far ahead some of them were really thinking, especially in the adaptations - though it's arguably intentional, possibly to demonstrate how [[Not As Planned|a lack of pragmatism fucks people over in the long-term]], especially in a realm so rapidly driven by [[Just as planned|ever-changing politics and schemes]] ([[Skub|or possibly because of bad writing, who knows]]).

'''The Lannisters'''

Lannister-brand parenting and ruling revolves around nepotism, an iron fist and enough money to solve any problem thrown at them. While they enjoy significant successes at first, they also gave birth to some of the most short-sighted sociopaths who rely on their fortune, both material and immaterial, to try and win the Game of Thrones, and all ultimately lose in the end due to both fortunes running short. Examples of the Lannisters' worst offenders:

* Joffrey Baratheon is both very impulsive and sadistic, which is an already disastrous pairing of personality traits to combine with the fact that he's 12 - 15 years old across the books. On the note of not-even-really-excuses, there's also possible mental instability resulting from the fact that he's inbred and his mother is Cersei (more on her in a moment).
** He hires a peasant and gives them a Valyrian Blade to kill Bran Stark - this is one of only a few hundred such weapons in all of Westeros, and an unusual weapon for a common hitman when a common dirk would have sufficed; when that fails, it causes the Starks to suspect the Lannisters. He also kills Eddard Stark to make an example of him, therefore sparking an unnecessary and very costly civil war that went against what his family had planned. Despite that, they still came out on top since they are still standing while the Starks are scattered, due mainly to Tywin and Tyrion being [[Creed|tactical geniuses and strategic masterminds.]]
** He also chooses to ignore his duties and the welfare of his people in favor of satiating his sadistic behavior, even abusing them when they're seeking his help. He regularly abuses Sansa in particular, and threatens to have her killed despite the fact it will reduce her value as a political hostage and (in their eyes) could cause the Starks to kill their political hostage, Jaime Lannister.
** Having no regard for the peasants and working class under your charge is already a bad idea, but is ''especially'' so when there's an impending siege plus a food shortage and tensions are already high. This leads to a riot that causes several deaths when he orders a mass execution after one member of the crowd threw a dung ball at him.
** Even his family isn't safe from his viciousness, occasionally to the point of team-killing fuckery: he has one of his Kingsguard try to murder his uncle Tyrion in the middle of the Battle of Blackwater instead of just simply poisoning him (as Tyrion pointed out) and didn't even wait until after the battle which Tyrion was eseential in. He even calls Tywin a coward. ''Out loud. In front of other people. '''To his face.''''' Luckily for Joffrey they were related, or he would have been struck down. And as what turns out to be a final hurrah at his wedding, he insults his in-laws and his bride at their wedding reception and subjects Tyrion to petty tortures in front of everyone.

* Cersei Lannister, while not as dumb as her son Joffrey (low a bar as that is), is egotistic and paranoid as fuck; if she, for any reason, thinks you might threaten her or her children, even for something as minor as telling her her latest idea is a bad one, you're in trouble. At best, she will view you as an enemy and will be a passive-aggressive bitch to you, and at worst she'll have you brutally tortured to death, even if you're one of House Lannister's allies to whom good relations are vital. On top of all that, she's a contender for Worst Mother in Westeros, and her cruelty drove away even her incestuous lover, Jaime Lannister (which happened much earlier into the books than in the TV show).
** She invited Gregor Clegane (see below) to King's Landing at the same time Oberyn Martell is visiting, despite the fact that Gregor is the reason there's bad blood between House Lannister and House Martell, and the Martells know it.
** After Joffrey died, she went out of her way to rig the trial for his death against Tyrion, despite the circumstances ''already'' being against him - this made him more determined than ever to survive, and tipped off Oberyn that Tyrion is innocent of the crime. This led to the duel between Oberyn and Gregor that ruined the Lannister/Martell alliance and ''nearly'' cost the Lannisters their pet beast.
** She also responded to a satirical puppet show about House Lannister being evil tyrants by having anyone who saw it either fined (up to half of all their money if they're rich) or mutilated (an eye cut out if they're too poor to pay), and then ordering the puppeteers executed. She didn't even mind the play at first - she only took offence because the ending had the Lannisters getting their comeuppance at the hands of a Targaryen. Then, instead of the headsman, she did something worse and handed the puppeteers over to her resident mad scientist for deadly experiments at his request. Ironically, events following this would vindicate the puppeteers for their play (more on ''that'' below).
** Cersei encouraged the worst aspects of her sons; in the case of Joffrey, this is like attempting to put out a forest fire with napalm. Her atrocious parenting, combined with conceiving Joffrey with her brother Jamie AND Robert's own negligence, is the reason Joffrey's such a repulsive asshole. She ignores the numerous acts of cruelty and stupidity of her eldest son, and treats any criticism of him as a personal attack on ''her''.
** She was an overbearing mother to Tommen - her actually half-decent person of a second son - to the point of [[What|trying to make him more like Joffrey]], which inevitably failed and made Tommen a gullible yes-man of a momma's boy. This in turn left them vulnerable to the ambitions of Margaery Tyrell, who tries to drive a wedge between them and threatens her plans to rule as queen regent until Tommen was of age. Cersei also neglected her daughter Myrecella since the patriarchal nature of Westeros royalty meant she was unlikely to get power... despite Cersei regularly complaining about sexism against women.
** She killed a high septon because he was a cat's paw Tyrion put into power to keep the faith in House Lannister's pocket (being a decent but easily manipulated man), because Cersei's paranoia meant she feared that Tyrion was out to get her and that guy was in on it. This leads to a more competent and devout high septon getting into power with ambitions of his own. She then let him raise his own army, creating another player to threaten House Lannister's precarious position and one unbeholden to politics, which leads to her arrest - though in the books he was smart and played Cersei like a fiddle. In context, Cersei's undoing is a good thing - especially for everyone not allied with House Lannister.
** In the TV show, as revenge for the High Sparrow imprisoning her and Margaery taking her place as Queen (which is partly her fault in the ''first place''), she makes the perfectly rational decision to blow them all to fuck using magical napalm while they were at church for a trial. The end result was: Making the High Sparrow a martyr and driving the followers of the faith into a fervor that fuels uprisings; driving Tommen (who was friends with the High Sparrow and loved Margaery dearly) to commit suicide via jumping out a window; and pushing a pissed Olenna Tyrell to withdraw all the house's support from King's Landing and declare for the resurgent House Targaryen alongside Dorne. Cersei and House Lannister now literally had no major allies left in Westeros sans the Freys, who aren't at all reliable and were being destroyed by Arya and the Boltons when their treachery outstripped the benefits.
Unfortunately, she was still one step ahead and easily took out Houses Tyrell and Dorne despite their efforts, using the Iron Bank to buy herself a mercenary force and recruit Euron at the cost of losing Casterly Rock to her rivals (though this was helped by some internal team-killing from Oberyn's widow thanks to the fact the Martell/Tyrell relation are as bad as Stark/Lannister, it's a bloody epidemic in that show).
** Also in the TV show, when Daenerys and her supports come to parlay with Cersei's forces for help against the White Walkers and their zombie armies - showing proof by cutting up a captured zombie with the pieces still attacking - Cersei did the stupidest possible thing and refused to support them, deciding she'd rather "let the dead eat them all". She ignored the fact that this would leave her on the receiving end of a curb-stomp battle from either the aforementioned While Walkers (whose undead army would be bolstered by the dead from Daenerys') or Daenerys' forces AND everyone else grateful Daenerys beat the White Walkers/sick of Cersei. This ultimately comes back to bite her when she kills Missandei and pushes Daenerys over the edge from Lawful Neutral to Stupid Evil as she gives no quarter to anyone in King's Landing and commands the Dorathki, Unsullied and her dragon to rape, pillage and burn down King's Landing and leave no survivors - Cersei and her brother Jamie were crushed to death by the falling rubble. Of course, as will soon be made clear, Danerys was turned into a draconian (hue) powder keg of Stupid Evil herself, but for now we move to...

* Arguably Tywin Lannister: while known for his image of being a deviously competent politician and general, his actions don't hold up to the hype under further scrutiny. His neurotic obsession with protecting his house's reputation leads him to condone and engage in acts of excessive cruelty and brutality that have long term negative consequences, with his patriarchal narcissism ultimately resulting in his death at the hands of his dwarf son.
** Spurned Tyrion out of spite for his unintentional role in his wife's death - she died in childbirth. He did this for Tyrion's entire life, including annulling Tyrion's marriage to a peasant girl by having her gang-raped while forcing Tyrion to watch ''and later join in'' - this act horrified even Bronn, Tyrion's amoral sword-for-hire who'd kill a baby for the right price, saying in Tyrion's shoes he'd have killed Tywin for that, father or not. All this leaves the only one of his children who was both competent ''and'' legally available to inherit Casterly Rock with a burning hatred for Tywin.
** Sent Gregor Clegane after Elia Martell and her kids, planning for the children's death but hoping to use Elia as leverage against the Dornish; however, he forgot what a monster Gregor is and she dies as a result, with House Martell despising House Lannister, and likely setting in motion a possible (though ultimately ineffectual) poisoning with Widow's Blood by Oberyn Martell (It stops up the bowels until the victim dies of sepsis, which may have been why he was on the shitter when Tyrion killed him).
** Ordered Clegane and the Brave Companions/Bloody Mummers mercenary company to run wild in the Riverlands, causing a major agricultural zone for the continent to drop in productivity during the onset of a winter that could last years. Those affected by the rampages of Gregor and the Bloody Mummers also started to join the Sparrows religious movement, creating more opponents of House Lannister that have deep personal grievances with them (such as a peasant innkeeper whose son was murdered by the Mummer's and whose daughter was raped by Gregor).
** Orchestrated the Red Wedding, shredding House Lannister's political image and credibility throughout Westeros - nobody wants to negotiate with someone who doesn't follow the same rules of war as them, like say, honoring a right to hospitality that the entire continent respects. In a bitter stroke of irony, his own grandson Joffrey would be murdered by Olenna Tyrell at his own wedding with Margery to spare her of the same fate Sansa suffered, meaning that everything he did to bring Joffrey to power was all for nothing ''and'' widened the rift between Tyrion by letting him take the fall for Joffey's death, as well as allowing the Tyrells to have an advantage over the Lannisters with help from the Sparrows who as mentioned above, were supported by the Tyrells thanks to the atrocities committed.
** In particular, he berated Tyrion for whoremongering while using prostitutes himself. This is worth noting not merely for the expected hypocrisy, but for the fact that Tywin likely took issue with his ''severe'' lack of discretion more than anything else: what son of a Lannister, much less ''his'' own son, should be so well-known as a skirt-chaser? Then he was founding banging Tyrion's sugar baby Shae; this last hurrah got him killed, as he mouthed off at Tyrion when the latter had a loaded crossbow pointed at him while he was stuck on the toilet and had learnt of his ultimate betrayal (it also led to Shae's death). He also died with the shameful legacy of being found dead on the toilet with his corpse stinking up his own funeral, his daughter being remembered as a Targareyn-wannabe (not a compliment), his grandson being a wimpy tyrant and his oldest son being an oath-breaking team-killing sister-fucker... all while his rivals Ned and Robb were lionized as martyrs.

* Gregor Clegane is a serial killer with a short temper. He's gone through three wives who died under suspicious circumstances.
There's a high turnover rate among the servants at his keep and even animals avoid his chambers. Before this, he maimed his brother Sandor and would've killed him if three men didn't intervene, and he's heavily implied to have murdered his sister and father, despite the father doting on him even when his evil started to become apparent.
** The circumstances surrounding him and his brother are as such: Gregor once caught his brother playing with one of Gregor's discarded toy soldiers when they were children. He took the logical next step of holding his brother's face over a fire, permanently disfiguring that half of his face and mentally scarring him; on top of a case of pyrophobia it arguably made him stagnate into a phase of prolonged "adult childhood" from a developmental disorder, based on this and his other actions.
** Before the story starts, it's an open secret that Gregor raped and murdered Rheagar's wife Elia Martell, even though he hadn't been ordered to do so and she was valuable political hostage. He also killed a baby, and though he'd been ordered to do that, the fact remains that [[Grimdark|he had no qualms about the deed and went so far as smashing his head against a wall]]. This bites him and the Lannisters in the ass BIG TIME later on, though he deserved it.
** After losing a jousting match, Gregor decapitated his own horse, then tries to kill his opponent, Loras Tyrell, and his own brother Sandor when the latter intervenes. Had Gregor succeeded, it's likely the Lannisters would've kissed any hope of an alliance with the Tyrells goodbye.
** The men who Gregor recruits as his hand-picked warriors aren't chosen for their intelligence or resourcefulness, and not even loyalty; they serve Gregor out of fear and desire of plunder, and prize their fighting skills and sadism, essentially raping and torturing random peasants to death for the lulz. This includes the prisoners from the taking of Harrenhal, many of whom were nobility and could have been used as leverage in the war.
** Arguably when, before killing Oberyn, Gregor shouted a confession to his crime of murdering and raping Elia in front of all of the nobles in King's Landing. This would've put House Martell and House Lannister at open war... if the Martells hadn't been already secretly plotting to destroy them, though this ''does'' push their schedule forward and undermine the Lannister's supporters.
** For all that, there is at least some "justification" as to why this guy is kept around by House Lannister. He's a brutal warrior in every sense of the word who projects an aura of fear, and for all his butchery, raping, rage, and blunt cruelty, he's never threatened House Lannister directly and is (for want of a better word) content to be their pet beast. It also doesn't help that he's addicted to milk of the poppy (opium in all but name) since he consumed so much to combat the migraines brought on by his gigantism that it no longer works on him and he's always in an addled state.

* Ramsay Bolton is the son of Roose, a cunning general who manipulated and back-stabbed his way into rulership of the North; unlike Roose, Ramsey lacks any strategic foresight and critical thinking, and is totally fearless and reckless with his actions, which Roose correctly points out will be his downfall if they are not curbed. This ends up coming across as more of an informed attribute due to the TV show's writing, but the result is ultimately the same. [[Fail|Shame he didn't listen to his old man, huh?]]
** He killed his half-brother, despite the fact that this also deprived his father of another heir, which in medieval-esque societies is important; the more offspring they have, the more likely the noble family is to survive.
** His savage exploits are known across Westeros, and he continuously pisses off the other Northern lords by hunting down their subjects for fun, partly inspiring half of the Northern Houses rebel against Bolton rule. He chose to flay Ironborn captives alive, despite promising them clemency if they surrendered, along with turning Theon Greyjoy into his personal eunuch slave. This has ensured that the Ironborn will now fight to the death rather than sue for peace, and contemplate a full invasion of the North instead of merely raiding its settlements.
** In the books, after marrying the fake-Arya Stark (who everyone else thinks is the real one) he tortures her, threatens her and [[FATAL|tries to make her do certain things to his hunting dogs]]. This sets off the Northerners' [[Powder Keg of Justice]], causing an uprising against the Boltons that will likely end with Ramsay's and Roose's heads on spikes.
** He sent an assassin after Jon Snow. As Roose pointed out, Jon was the leader of a well-known and politically neutral organization, whose claim to the throne of House Stark was tenuous at best, and would've gone against his vows, a big deal in Westeros. Killing him would almost certainly create a martyr, or at least demonstrate to the other houses that House Bolton has no respect for neutrality.
** The TV version actually murdered his father in the middle of the war, fed his step-mother and infant half-brother to his dogs, and he'd also raped Sansa Stark beforehand after manipulating an arranged marriage between them. Yet he [[Mary Sue|somehow manages more (and often downright insane) successes than his book counterpart]] in spite of acting like little more than a rabid dog raised in nobility (the infamous "twenty good men" scene where trained killers' armor and expertise suddenly become useless against a half-naked Ramsay comes to mind).
** Unfortunately (for him), his fortune doesn't last, as being a team-killing fucktard ultimately got his own army wiped out before he was beaten to near-death by Jon Snow, culminating in Sansa feeding him to his own dogs -- who were only hungry enough to turn on him because he'd starved them for a week beforehand in anticipation of feeding them the Starks and in his previous hunts he'd deliberately cultivated a taste for human flesh in the dogs.

* Slaver's Bay (aka ''Stupid Evil: The Civilization''), a neo-Ghiscari settlement, is run by a bunch of decadent slave dealers who do nothing besides wax on about how great the 5 millennia dead old Ghiscari Empire was and leave their society in the Bronze Age... in a world one step removed from [[Medieval Stasis]].
** Of the four cities of Slaver's Bay, two of them, Meereen and Yunkai, believe that a bunch of slaves with spears and shields led by fops on horseback or in chariots wearing linen vests and helmets made to accommodate their stupid hairdos constitute a proper army. After Yunkai gets its ass kicked by Daenerys when she brings a half decent army to the field that doesn't run at the first excuse, they decide that it would be a good idea to raise ''new'' slave armies that are [[What|chained together and fight on stilts]].
** One of them, Astapor, trains Unsullied elite spear slaves who obey any order given to them without question, which they sell and use for defense. The Masters of Astapor [[Derp|agree to sell all the Unsullied they've got to Dany exchange for one of her dragons]], and she then proceeds to have the Unsullied sack their city and kill them.
** Admittedly, the prospect of owning a dragon, especially after they’re thought to be extinct for centuries and being the equivalent of a self-replenishing WMD, is an awfully tempting one given how new Unsullied are made each year. Despite that, it’s ''still'' extremely stupid that they questioned neither the possibility of how they can control said dragon (leading to one Master burning to death seconds after grabbing the dragon’s chain) ''nor'' the sense in selling every Unsullied warrior-slave to the same person and leaving none to defend themselves. They also never considered that the Unsullied, though trained to be obedient, might resent the brutality involved in their training ([[Grimdark|which included castrating them at a young age, sending aspirants into the city tasked with killing babies in front of their mothers to prove they'll follow even the vilest orders, giving them a puppy to care for in their first year then making them strangle it to death as a test of loyalty - killing those who fail this test, and making them take new names each day on pain of death - demeaning names like "black rat", "blue toad" or "red flea" - so they can't develop a sense of individual identity]]), and would seize a chance for vengeance which Dany happily gave them.
** For no particular tactical reason, the leadership of Meereen decided to taunt an oncoming army by having child slaves nailed to mileposts to die along the road - a decision which backfires on them rather spectacularly.

* Daenerys Targaryen of the TV show's continuity takes her newly earned spot in this list with a single but major action, through the sheer power of bad writing. In the second-to-last episode, she reduces the entire citizenry to dragonfire kindling through a series of events that Cersei is somewhat at fault for: Dany was already fixing to blow several gaskets because she was rejected by Jon Snow (who is her nephew and not as cest-willing as Jamie) and got one of her dragons killed (by [[What|completely forgetting about an entire fleet of ships]]), and then Cersei slams the final nail in the coffin of her rational thought by having her close friend Missandei killed. This last act is the impetus for Dany to torch 'em all and let the Seven sort it out, throwing away any and all goodwill she would have gained from King's Landing - virtually nobody held much love or loyalty for Cersei, and most of the common folk would have loved her had she not then decided to literally become her father.
** Don't get us wrong, signs of a dark, sadistic side to Daenerys were always there with the signpost punishment and other early signs of a "pay evil unto evil" mentality that cast shadows of doubt onto her image as the liberating Breaker of Chains. But with the way said signs were developed in the show (which is to say, almost ''not at all''), it is beyond stupefying how she went from "Messiah, Breaker of Chains" to truly being her father's daughter in the grand span of ''two episodes''. It's no wonder everyone save the Unsullied (who themselves were retconned enough that they might as well be unthinking automatons now, though Grey Worm had the excuse of being distraught over Missandei's death) and Dothraki (who actually enjoy random acts of slaughter like this) turned on her the moment they saw what she has become and got her assassinated.
** And no, we're not shitting you: in a televised interview, the showrunners were asked why Daenerys didn't do anything about the Iron Fleet, and Beinoff nervously said outright that [[What|she kind of forgot about them.]] That is almost (but just barely not quite) '''Dexter'' finale' levels of shit writing, wasted at the very end on such a spectacular crew and cast to boot. If GRRM intends to turn Dany evil and kill her off, he knows what NOT to do in ADOS - assuming TWOW, let alone ADOS, are ever finished.

===Other general examples===
* Strawman villains in poorly written fiction across the board.
* Villains in Saturday morning cartoons and similar fare (e.g. Wacky Races, Captain Planet).
* [[Grimderp|Grimdark as a whole often suffers]] from characters who make things crappy just for the sake of making things crappy.
* [[Edgy|Edgelord]] characters by preteens/actual teens (or users with a similar enough mentality) on DeviantArt (though one could argue Edgelords are more [[Chaotic Stupid]], this is a case by case basis).
* The 'villains' of many fringe-conspiracy theories would be Stupid Evil if they existed as depicted, since their plans undermine their own power bases, have little to no tangible gain, or else draw attention by plastering their logo on everything. It's also weird that despite how cartoonishly evil they are thought of, they don't bother to kill anyone exposing the conspiracies while making it look like an accident. This is probably because there is some overlap with the strawman characters - they just have to be Evil™ enough to scare whoever you're selling your bridge to into action.

===Other /tg/-relevant examples===
* The Sith in the ''[[Star Wars]]'' universe suffer from this greatly, and it's a major reason they keep losing to the Jedi and failed to keep any of their empires intact long-term. In fact, one could argue that they're a perfect case study on why Stupid Evil is a bad idea:
** Firstly, whereas the Jedi code encourages understanding yet controlling your emotions (that way you take them into account, but they don't prevent you from doing what is necessary), the Sith code encourages embracing your emotions and indeed, many of the most powerful Sith like Darth Vader are incredibly emotionally damaged. Thus Sith tend to do things in the heat of the moment and often lack the patience needed to be truly effective. Darth Malak can't find Revan and the Ebon Hawk crew on a planet he has control of? Oh well better just ''level his own planet'' with Star Destroyers, costing himself thousands of workers and soldiers in his psychotic and desperate rush to off his old master.
** Secondly, the Sith code is built on a hyper-Darwinist, "survival-of-the-fittest" structure. While this sounds decent enough on paper, in practice it meant that the Sith ''constantly'' backstabbed each other in idiotic power plays, often leading to Sith killing each other more often than they killed Jedi. Crossing with the "overly emotional" thing above, their lack of patience often led to them betraying each other way before it was beneficial to do so. Darth Bane was the first major Sith Lord to realize how stupid and unsustainable this lifestyle was, and did something about it for the benefit of the Order rather than themselves. His "rule of two" may have led to the Sith population being lower than ever before or after, but at least it kept the Sith order alive and prevented most of them from slaughtering each other in pathetic attempts to gobble up more power.
*** It should be noted that even the Sith themselves violate or weasel their way around the Rule of Two every now and then. Darth Maul was alive at the same time as Dooku & Palpatine (technically before Dooku defected after Qui-Gon's death but it still counts as Palps was already planning to replace him in Legends), and in the EU during Vader's time there were the Force-using "Hands of the Emperor" agents such as Mara Jade. They also have characters like Ventress who aren’t officially Sith Lords, yet are trained just like one. So while it decreases their numbers by a lot, they find ways around even when they actually obey said rule. This again is an aversion of idiocy, as a spare is a good a idea when only two people are allowed.
*** Also don't get the idea that Darth Bane's plan was sensible or not-backstabby. He wiped out almost all of the Sith in exchange for merely a small group of Jedi of the Jedi in an admittedly epic and arguably goddamn hilarious backstab, and part of the reason he did so wasn't because he was sure they'd fall into infighting - rather, Lord Kaan had most of them under his thumb thanks to psychic influence and strength - but because the Sith were acting in very un-Sithy ways, relying purely on strength of arms and unified armies rather than mastery of the Dark Side. Even when there was a very real chance the Sith could've won via these methods, he couldn't have that or slink off and make his rule of two on his own - he had to backstab everyone else first. Then, go figure, his sucessors ended up using those same pragmatic tactics until the Jedi declined enough to almost destroy them in one blow. To be fair, the survivors (read: the assholes who didn't help with the 300-year long galactic dark age after two and a half millennia of almost nonstop war) and their policies lead to the decline of the Jedi Order until they got Order 66'd.
** Thirdly and finally, Sith who engage in too much evil and envelope themselves too deeply in the Dark Side often suffer from an inability to properly sense the Light Side. This alienation of the Light is what lead to the otherwise brilliant Palpatine's death. He alienated altruism and good so utterly that he was not only unable to sense Luke Skywalker's presence during a critical moment, but he was also unable to sense that his apprentice Darth Vader still had some morality in him. Thus he attempts to tortuously kill Luke, and is killed himself when he fails to sense Vader's own paternal feelings and the betrayal they influence.
* The [[Skaven]] from [[Warhammer Fantasy]], whose rival clans always plan on backstabbing each other even if they're all fighting a mutual (and often far worse) enemy. A perfect plan for them involves getting their own enemies and allies to kill each other, until they are the only one left to face the next enemy - keep in mind that "they" doesn't just mean rival clans either; in an apocalyptic scenario, even their personal secretary is only barely less of an enemy than the hordes of the undead. As above, it takes the [[Horned Rat]], their god, as well as the invention of instant communication via the [[Farsqueaker]], to get their fuzzy little asses united...though in the Skaven's case, them being a species of Stupid Evil is entirely the ([[Lulz|hilarious]]) point and their society is explained as surviving in spite of themselves due to a ridiculous breeding rate.
* Humans in science and fantasy fiction often end up being Stupid Evil when the (usually incompetent) writer wants to make a statement about discrimination. According to these tales, humans are apparently overly-panicky and violent psychopaths itching for an excuse to murder the shit out of other species. For instance, in [[Avatar]] the human army is portrayed as a bunch of jingoist lunatics who want to slaughter the peaceful Na'vi for the resources they need, rather than trying to reap long-term benefits by making peaceful contact, in a clear exaggeration of tendencies that might have existed in the colonization era. The advent of [[Humanity Fuck Yeah]] is in part a reaction to this phenomenon.
* Some followers of [[Chaos]], such as [[Firaeveus Carron]], can prove to be this most of the time.
* [[Lolth]] actually enforces Stupid Evil in her worshipers: because of her, the Drow spend 3 quarters of their energy fighting each other instead of defending themselves, which is a really bad idea since they live in an underground city under constant threat of being [[rape]]d by [[illithid]]s and [[beholder]]s. In fact, when things get really bad, she literally has to tell them to get their shit together for a short period of time.
* [[/co/|The Joker.]] Once "merely" a criminal mastermind with a chaotic, unpredictable bent and joke-themed weapons (like a joy buzzer that gives a lethal electric shock and a squirting flower that sprays acid), he devolved in the 90's into a murder-happy rabid dog who kills for the jollies and because [[/d/|he gets off on being punched in the face by Batman]]. Although with ''Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' he's grown out of the stupid phase and is now convincingly chaotic evil for reasons that make Batman look like a whiny rich kid.
* Starscream from [[Transformers]]. He's too ambitious and egotistical to realize how good his position as Megatron's second-in-command is, and so spends much of his time trying to usurp his leader with predictable failure. He also tends to do things on the spur of the moment to satisfy his own ego, as demonstrated in ''Prime'' where he angrily takes credit for killing Arcee's best friend Cliffjumper ''while in handcuffs in front of Arcee'', simply because he doesn't want Airachnid stealing the credit for things he did.

[[Category:Dungeons & Dragons]][[Category:Alignment]]

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:52:37Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* Video Games */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, while it's possible to have an edgelord who's not targeting "The Man™" (since their targets can be enemies of "The Man™" such as criminals), a "Yes" answer here automatically grants the character edgelord status.
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, organized religion or the education and/or legal system. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil companies for industries or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have body modification, ranging from minor such as tattoos to extreme examples such as horns or wings? Bonus points if the modifications can be weaponized.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". While he started out as "edge with a point" trying to give men catharsis from, and criticizing, the growing cultural and familial vacuum of the 90's, he later descended into being a full-blown edgelord.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Several characters from World of Warcraft. Prime examples from villains are Deathwing, Sylvanas and Sargeras. A non-villain (debatably) example is Illidan Stormrage (pictured below).
** Special mention goes to pre-retcon Sargeras. Originally, Sargeras was so traumatized by the evil of the demons he fought... [[Stupid Evil|he became convinced that good was futile and conscripted those same demons into an army to destroy the cosmos]]).
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. On top of being a callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich she hates religion but wants to become a goddess, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her... all in all, a textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"...
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:52:10Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* Video Games */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, while it's possible to have an edgelord who's not targeting "The Man™" (since their targets can be enemies of "The Man™" such as criminals), a "Yes" answer here automatically grants the character edgelord status.
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, organized religion or the education and/or legal system. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil companies for industries or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have body modification, ranging from minor such as tattoos to extreme examples such as horns or wings? Bonus points if the modifications can be weaponized.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". While he started out as "edge with a point" trying to give men catharsis from, and criticizing, the growing cultural and familial vacuum of the 90's, he later descended into being a full-blown edgelord.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Several characters from World of Warcraft:
* Prime examples from villains are Deathwing, Sylvanas and Sargeras. A non-villain (debatably) example is Illidan Stormrage (pictured below).
** Special mention goes to pre-retcon Sargeras. Originally, Sargeras was so traumatized by the evil of the demons he fought... [[Stupid Evil|he became convinced that good was futile and conscripted those same demons into an army to destroy the cosmos]]).
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. On top of being a callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich she hates religion but wants to become a goddess, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her... all in all, a textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"...
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:44:18Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* Gallery */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, while it's possible to have an edgelord who's not targeting "The Man™" (since their targets can be enemies of "The Man™" such as criminals), a "Yes" answer here automatically grants the character edgelord status.
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, organized religion or the education and/or legal system. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil companies for industries or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have body modification, ranging from minor such as tattoos to extreme examples such as horns or wings? Bonus points if the modifications can be weaponized.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". While he started out as "edge with a point" trying to give men catharsis from, and criticizing, the growing cultural and familial vacuum of the 90's, he later descended into being a full-blown edgelord.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Illidan Stormrage (pictured below), Deathwing and Sylvanas Windrunner from the Warcraft franchise.
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. On top of being a callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich she hates religion but wants to become a goddess, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her... all in all, a textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"...
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:43:35Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord? */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, while it's possible to have an edgelord who's not targeting "The Man™" (since their targets can be enemies of "The Man™" such as criminals), a "Yes" answer here automatically grants the character edgelord status.
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, organized religion or the education and/or legal system. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil companies for industries or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have body modification, ranging from minor such as tattoos to extreme examples such as horns or wings? Bonus points if the modifications can be weaponized.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". While he started out as "edge with a point" trying to give men catharsis from, and criticizing, the growing cultural and familial vacuum of the 90's, he later descended into being a full-blown edgelord.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Illidan Stormrage (pictured below), Deathwing and Sylvanas Windrunner from the Warcraft franchise.
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. On top of being a callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich she hates religion but wants to become a goddess, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her... all in all, a textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"... Edgelord confirmed.
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:42:43Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord? */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, while it's possible to have an edgelord who's not targeting "The Man™" (since their targets can be enemies of "The Man™" such as criminals), a "Yes" answer here automatically grants the character edgelord status.
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, organized religion or the education and/or legal system. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil companies for industries or the Catholic Church for religious groups).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have body modification, ranging from minor such as tattoos to extreme examples such as horns or wings? Bonus points if the modifications can be weaponized.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". While he started out as "edge with a point" trying to give men catharsis from, and criticizing, the growing cultural and familial vacuum of the 90's, he later descended into being a full-blown edgelord.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Illidan Stormrage (pictured below), Deathwing and Sylvanas Windrunner from the Warcraft franchise.
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. On top of being a callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich she hates religion but wants to become a goddess, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her... all in all, a textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"... Edgelord confirmed.
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:42:08Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord? */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, while it's possible to have an edgelord who's not targeting "The Man™" (since their targets can be enemies of "The Man™" such as criminals), a "Yes" answer here automatically grants the character edgelord status.
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, organized religion or the education and/or legal system. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil companies for industries or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have body modification, ranging from minor such as tattoos to extreme examples such as horns or wings? Bonus points if the modifications can be weaponized.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". While he started out as "edge with a point" trying to give men catharsis from, and criticizing, the growing cultural and familial vacuum of the 90's, he later descended into being a full-blown edgelord.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Illidan Stormrage (pictured below), Deathwing and Sylvanas Windrunner from the Warcraft franchise.
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. On top of being a callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich she hates religion but wants to become a goddess, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her... all in all, a textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"... Edgelord confirmed.
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:40:43Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord? */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, while it's possible to have an edgelord who's not targeting "The Man™" (since their targets can be enemies of "The Man™" such as criminals), a "Yes" answer here automatically grants the character edgelord status.
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, organized religion or the education and/or legal system. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil executives for companies or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have body modification, ranging from minor such as tattoos to extreme examples such as horns or wings? Bonus points if the modifications can be weaponized.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". While he started out as "edge with a point" trying to give men catharsis from, and criticizing, the growing cultural and familial vacuum of the 90's, he later descended into being a full-blown edgelord.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Illidan Stormrage (pictured below), Deathwing and Sylvanas Windrunner from the Warcraft franchise.
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. On top of being a callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich she hates religion but wants to become a goddess, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her... all in all, a textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"... Edgelord confirmed.
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:40:12Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord? */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, while it's possible to have an edgelord who's not targeting "The Man™" (since their targets can be enemies of "The Man™" such as criminals), a "Yes" answer here automatically grants the character edgelord status.
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, organized religion the education and/or legal system. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil executives for companies or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have body modification, ranging from minor such as tattoos to extreme examples such as horns or wings? Bonus points if the modifications can be weaponized.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". While he started out as "edge with a point" trying to give men catharsis from, and criticizing, the growing cultural and familial vacuum of the 90's, he later descended into being a full-blown edgelord.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Illidan Stormrage (pictured below), Deathwing and Sylvanas Windrunner from the Warcraft franchise.
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. On top of being a callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich she hates religion but wants to become a goddess, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her... all in all, a textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"... Edgelord confirmed.
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:25:55Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* Tabletop Games */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, a "Yes" answer here frequently automatically grants the character edgelord status regardless of whether or not they have anything else on this list. On the other hand, note that it's '''very''' possible to be an edgelord not targeting "The Man™"--usually because their targets are opposed to "The Man™" (usually including, but not limited to, Criminals, Foreign Enemies and Terrorists).
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, the education system or organized religion. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil executives for companies or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have built in weapons, such as horns or cybernetics? Bonus points if they're alterations of their original body's state.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". While he started out as "edge with a point" trying to give men catharsis from, and criticizing, the growing cultural and familial vacuum of the 90's, he later descended into being a full-blown edgelord.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Illidan Stormrage (pictured below), Deathwing and Sylvanas Windrunner from the Warcraft franchise.
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. On top of being a callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich she hates religion but wants to become a goddess, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her... all in all, a textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"... Edgelord confirmed.
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:24:02Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* Film */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, a "Yes" answer here frequently automatically grants the character edgelord status regardless of whether or not they have anything else on this list. On the other hand, note that it's '''very''' possible to be an edgelord not targeting "The Man™"--usually because their targets are opposed to "The Man™" (usually including, but not limited to, Criminals, Foreign Enemies and Terrorists).
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, the education system or organized religion. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil executives for companies or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have built in weapons, such as horns or cybernetics? Bonus points if they're alterations of their original body's state.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". While he started out as "edge with a point" trying to give men catharsis from, and criticizing, the growing cultural and familial vacuum of the 90's, he later descended into being a full-blown edgelord.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Illidan Stormrage (pictured below), Deathwing and Sylvanas Windrunner from the Warcraft franchise.
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. A callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich, she hates religion but wants to become a goddess herself, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her, and all without a higher goal than her own selfish gain... textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"... Edgelord confirmed.
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:19:16Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* Comics */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, a "Yes" answer here frequently automatically grants the character edgelord status regardless of whether or not they have anything else on this list. On the other hand, note that it's '''very''' possible to be an edgelord not targeting "The Man™"--usually because their targets are opposed to "The Man™" (usually including, but not limited to, Criminals, Foreign Enemies and Terrorists).
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, the education system or organized religion. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil executives for companies or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have built in weapons, such as horns or cybernetics? Bonus points if they're alterations of their original body's state.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from "The Boys", another of Garth's comic series (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club", albeit with an element of "edge with a point"; criticizing the growing cultural and familial vacuum prevalent in the 90's, though it was wrapped in edgelord antics.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmati,c North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Illidan Stormrage (pictured below), Deathwing and Sylvanas Windrunner from the Warcraft franchise.
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. A callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich, she hates religion but wants to become a goddess herself, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her, and all without a higher goal than her own selfish gain... textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"... Edgelord confirmed.
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>

Edgy

2020-12-30T13:17:53Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:1010:5EFB:8CEB:91F5: /* Gallery */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people pushing violent and controversial subject matter in their stories, especially when they're doing it to to try and be popular with tragic, violent or controversial stories. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes a specific type of self insert or wish fulfillment character; brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them, are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™" such as big business, law enforcement or organized religion). The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a power fantasy wrapped in propaganda. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===Who's An Edgelord?===
Who's a cute little Edgelord? Yes, you, you adorable little mass-murderer, you!

"Edgelord" gets applied to two groups: '''Authors''' fixated on making edgy material, and the '''Edgy characters''' they write. While most of this article assumes the latter definition (as we at least try to avoid authorial mind-reading), it's quite possible for an Edgelord author to create an edgy work without an Edgelord character<ref>How? Well, just to start with, picture a modern retelling of The Little Match Girl (the one where the title character freezes to death on the street--looking back on it, Hans Christian Anderson was Edgelord as fuck).</ref>, and a non-Edgelord author to create an Edgelord character (either unintentionally, satirically, or de-constructively).

===Edgy Villains===

There's an important argument to be made about villains and edginess. Frequently, it's necessary to engage in authorial behavior that would be considered edgy in order to properly develop a bad guy. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a [[Mary Sue|Villain Sue]] situation?" and "is the author's sympathies clearly with the villain's agenda?"<ref>Not with the villain himself; plenty of villains clearly have the author's sympathy (what [[TVTropes]] might call a "Villain Woobie" or "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds"); what matters here is does the author believe what the villain believes. That may sound odd, but many cases of "The Bad Guy Was Right" involve characters created by another author, or are (usually bad) parody of such.</ref>

===Edgelords and [[Mary Sue]]s===

A lot of edgy characters also qualify as [[Mary Sue]]s. This is because many writers who aim for "edgy" in their works are terrible at writing, and writing a [[Mary Sue]] is a common result of terrible writing. Another reason is the "Power Fantasy" route, where the author uses their work and the character in question to attack something or someone they oppose in real-life. There are a few important questions to ask in this case, the largest ones being "is this a Jerk Sue situation?", "do the villains represent a work the author hates?" and "do the villains represent a real-life person or group the author is against?"

Be on the look out for plot armor, protagonists who not only share their author's values, but are not challenged on these views in any way, and the other major Sue factors covered in our [[Mary Sue]] article.

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying, and using it as an outlet for personal grievances is the writing equivalent of walking through a minefield.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is An Edgelord?==

Every edgelord has at least four qualities; skilled at violence, aggressive, has easy access to weapons and are some kind of non-conformist. These alone or even together do not make a character an edgelord. If the character has these four traits, each "Yes" answer from the list below gives your character a piece of edgelorddom;

* Are they a power fantasy against "The Man™"? Note, a "Yes" answer here frequently automatically grants the character edgelord status regardless of whether or not they have anything else on this list. On the other hand, note that it's '''very''' possible to be an edgelord not targeting "The Man™"--usually because their targets are opposed to "The Man™" (usually including, but not limited to, Criminals, Foreign Enemies and Terrorists).
** Bonus points if the writer's idea of "The Man™" is big business, the education system or organized religion. Double bonus points if it ''is'' a real-life group or industry, and triple bonus points if the real life group is already frequently targeted this way (like oil executives for companies or Christianity for religions).
* Do they openly mock gods/faith/hope/love/peace/compromise/fate/all of the above? Bonus points if they ever attack representatives of the Power-That-Be at the cosmic level (ranging from openly mocking religious characters to an outright war on the gods).
* Do they have a tragic and/or violent backstory?
* Are forgiveness and redemption things the character disregards if not actively despises?
** Partial credit is granted if they themselves are seeking redemption... by using the exact same methods they used to use, just against a different set of targets.
* Do they not care if they live or die? Or do they want to die?
* Do they have problems with authority? As in a negative attitude towards anyone besides themselves having authority.
* Are they heavily scarred individuals? (physical, emotional, whatever...)
* Do they regularly quote-mine philosophers or works of fiction and spout these quotes to validate their worldview? Bonus points if they alter the original quote.
* Do they share any of the same beliefs as the work's creator and openly express them? (for example, the protagonists of stories by Ayn Rand or Jack Chick). Bonus points if they're a nihilist. <ref>This item is more a [[Mary Sue]] trope, but there is significant overlap between edgelords and Mary Sues.</ref>
** Are these views never challenged or refuted in the story? Or, for partial credit, are the challengers clearly strawmen?
** The Star Trek Captain Exception: If said belief is cleanly confined to one speech towards the end of the story/episode, and the author seems to be legitimately trying to just sum up and state the message of the story, it usually doesn't count. (Normally not an issue for edgelords, but it has happened occasionally.)
* Do they always wear sinister-looking attire?
** Do they wear a cloak, a coat or an overcoat that looks like a cloak.
** If they wear armor, does it have blades or spikes built in to it?
** Is it emblazoned with insults, profanities or threats of violence?
** Does it come in dark colors?
* Do they have tattoos or wear warpaint?
* Do they have built in weapons, such as horns or cybernetics? Bonus points if they're alterations of their original body's state.
* Do they swear like a drunk pirate?
* Do they have a vice, such as smoking? Bonus points if they have an addiction (fantastical addictions count)
* Do they have plot armor? (such as the Punisher being able to go toe-to-toe against superpowered beings who’d mop the floor with him otherwise)
* Are they a protagonist or antagonist written by Gav Thorpe, Garth Ennis, George RR Martin, Pat Mills or Alan Moore? (Note, an edgelord can be written by someone who's none of these people. And Moore and Martin, at least, are quite capable of writing protagonists and antagonists who aren't Edgelords; it's just that a lot of their characters tend to be unnecessarily edgy.)

==Notable Edgelords==

===Comics===
* The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer but especially when it's Garth Ennis; the ultimate example being the professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"].
* Billy Butcher from The Boys, another of Garth's stories (Garth is quite the edgelord himself), this one an anti-superpowers power fantasy. Billy is violent, racist, often dresses in black and is such a Punisher knock-off he even recycles Punisher's story arc from the comic linked above.
* The title character from the Marshall Law comics.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* The Joker, depending on the writer.
* Adversary from DC comics (pictured below), as a jab at edgelord characters and perhaps also their fans. In addition to meeting most of the criteria above, he works for a demon named Lord Satanus who gave him his powers and is actually a kid in a wheelchair.

===Film===
* Jared Leto's Joker in "Suicide Squad" is an almost textbook example of pointless "edgelord".
** The difference can be seen compared to the Joker portrayals in ''The Dark Knight'' and ''Joker'' (2019), which are both "edge with a point"; the former was about exploring human evils regarding terrorism and the latter was about exploring the origins of evil (and both avoiding ideological baggage).
* Tyler Durden from "Fight Club", albeit with an element of "edge with a point"; criticizing the growing cultural and familial vacuum prevalent in the 90's, though it was wrapped in edgelord antics.
* [[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmati,c North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.

===Live Action TV===
* Stargate's Sohkar- It's hard to get more edgelord than literally masquerading/cosplaying as Satan.

===Video Games===
* [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** The villain Infinite from ''Sonic Forces'', as a parody of edgy Villain Sue characters.
* Illidan Stormrage (pictured below), Deathwing and Sylvanas Windrunner from the Warcraft franchise.
* Reaper from Overwatch.
* Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.

===Literature===
* [[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
* Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]].
* Hamlet (yes, THAT Hamlet), possibly an example that predates Elric. After his father dies dies, he starts wearing black, becomes foreboding and dramatic and revenge obsessed for at least 6 months. Has monologues with skulls and murders his friends and the harmless father of his girlfriend.

===Tabletop Games===
* [[Konrad Curze]]
* [[Blackguard]]s
* Vlaakith, the Queen of the [[Githyanki]]. A callous, violent, paranoid tyrannical lich, she hates religion but wants to become a goddess herself, values strength but kills people who ''might'' become powerful enough to challenge her, and all without a higher goal than her own selfish gain... textbook edgelord.
* [[Lolth]] from Dungeons and Dragons. Started with trying to overthrow her divine husband because she didn't like her job and it all went downhill from there.
* Warhammer settings have too many to list them all;
** 40k is the worst offender in that regard, so let's just say the [[Black Templars]], the [[Marines Malevolent]], the [[Dark Eldar]] and most [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]] for this one.
** For Warhammer Fantasy there's [[Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
** On that note, [[Malal]] among the Chaos Gods.

===Fan Works===
* [[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
* Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
* The protagonist of "Ambience: A Fleet Symphony" and the story itself. A Fallout KanColle crossover fanfic that thinks it's a regular KanColle fanfic. It revolves around rape and eugenics, and when the story was posted to a forum and scorned, the writer went ballistic against their critics.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

===Anime===
* Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
* Bakugo from My Hero Academia probably counts as a deconstruction/parody of one. What else do you say about somebody who chooses the codename "King of Explodo-Kills" and later "Great Explosion Murder God Dynamight" while training to be a super''hero''?

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:Lord_of_the_edge_by_takfloyd-d99sq48.png|The edgelord mindset in a nutshell.
File:1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007.jpg|If any fictional edgelord could be called well-written, it'd be Elric.
File:Adversary_01.jpg|"Adversay" from DC Comics. Sinister clothes, aggressive name, smoking, swearing, trying to kill Superman for "rep"... Edgelord confirmed.
File:Tyler-durden-7.jpg|The face that launched a thousand edgelords (ironically doesn't wear dark clothes).
File:Darion Mograine.jpg|There's a small but distinct line between edgy...
File:531939-vertical-blizzard-wallpapers-2560x1440.jpg|... and edgelord.
</gallery>