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Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Lumineth Realm-Lords

2020-10-10T02:59:46Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* HQ */

{{Age of Sigmar Faction|Faction=Lumineth Realm-Lords|Logo=Eltharion's essence.jpg|Alliance=Order|Motto=FOR <s>ULTHUAN</s> HYSH!!!!!}}

The time of isolation is over, and now the Lumineth Realm-lords (not capitalizing the "-L") finally rise to defeat the forces of chaos with their unwavering resolve, unstoppable magic, angry cow people, stupid and impractical headgear even by this setting's standards and crippling drug addiction! (No really, that last part is actually part of their rules)

==Why Play Lumineth Realm Lords?==
*You were a big fan of High Elves in The World that Was.
*You saw 300 and thought to yourself "Yeah, this is cool, but you know what would be awesome? If they had pointy ears and giant cows!"
*Because you agree with most people that Eltharion was done dirty in The [[End Times]] and thought he deserved a new chance to shine.
*Because you want a more defensive playstyle with very durable infantry and a lot of flanking and ranged firepower.
*While you are an Elf fan, you also secretly like Dwarfs and want a factions that mixes elements of both.
*You want to play as Ossiarch Bonereapers, but like elves better than undead.

'''Pros:'''
*An extremely durable core option with your Vanari units being able to automatically give enemies -1 to hit for your standard spears, archers and cavalry.
*If you absolutely need to hit a unit before it gets away or fights back, you can with Lightning Reactions.
*You can give your units buffs out the ass, and you also don't need magic to do so.
*Speaking of magic, did we mention all your Vanari units are mages? You are one of the magic armies, with only the likes of Tzeentch being able to keep up with you... and then you could take Teclis, who gives Lords of Change penis envy.
*You can't throw a rock without hitting something that deals Mortal Wounds.
*Very powerful HQ choices. Obviously they have Teclis but if you don't want/can't afford him their other options are pretty damn good.
*Sweet spell lore. Being able to drop all enemy Bravery, make all your opponent's command abilities cost 2 CP or giving one of your units Ethereal means you have a spell for every situation.
*Horde factions are going to hate your guts because you have a lot of ways to get cheap, plentiful models off the field.
*You can turn the main weakness of using Aetherquartz, the -1 to bravery, and give it to you enemy, giving factions like Grots and Skaven a massive middle finger.

'''Cons:'''
*Remember all those buffs we mentioned above? Well, most come with drawbacks. Sure, you can get your wardens to give the enemy -1 to hit having their models all touching, but now they can't run or charge. Sure you can break into your Aetherquartz reserve to give your troops a rush, but now they have -1 to bravery. You need to make sure you are using them at the best time to mitigate the drawbacks.
*Almost no multi-casters or casting bonuses outside of bringing Teclis or <s>snorting crystal meth</s> using aetherquartz.
*You’re easily the slowest of the Aelven factions (quite the oximoron).
*The models are bad to transport. There's a lot of bits sticking off them like weapons, tassels and braids. The Vanari Dawnrider models are only connected to their bases by one hoof from their horsies. They'll likely need the Nighthaunt or Sylvaneth solution.
*Their bravery is mediocre, and gets even worse if they use aetherquartz.
*Your only allies are the Idoneth, which is odd considering they hate Teclis yet seem to be ok working with him alongside his other creation.
*Your roster is surprisingly small and limited...for now.
*They are not 'that' much of High Elves. They still don't use fancy, fantasy things like Lions, Hawks, Dragons and much more.

==Army Rules==
===Battle Traits===
*'''AETHERQUARTZ RESERVE:''' This is your big army-wide resource, more akin to the Kharadron's Aethergold in application. Every unit in your army has a single share of Aetherquartz. Once per phase, you can let one unit blow their reserves for one of the following powers below. However, using it has drawbacks: After using it, the unit suffers -1 to their Bravery for the rest of the game.
**''Heightened Senses:'' Triggered before the unit shoots or fights. The unit adds +1 to hit with any attacks they make for this phase (Shooting/Combat Phase).
**''Heightened Reflexes:'' +1 Save when chosen as an attack target (Shooting/Combat Phase).
**''Magical Boost:'' +1 or reroll cast (Your Hero Phase).
**''Magical Insight:'' Cast an extra spell (Your Hero Phase).
*'''ABSORB DESPAIR:''' Once per phase, a Cathallar wholly within 18" of a unit who uses an Aetherquartz can absorb it. If they do, don't reduce that units Bravery by 1 and instead choose an enemy unit within 18" of the Cathallar and reduce its Bravery by 1 for the rest of the battle. An enemy unit can't be affected by this more than once per battle. Its effectiveness depends on your opponent. It's great against some armies (nearly all Destruction armies will hate this), but worthless against others (Ossiarch Bonereapers and Sons of Behemat laugh this off). However, your unit still shrugs off the -1 to its Bravery, even if there is no eligible enemy target.
*'''LIGHTNING REACTIONS:''' When you get to select a unit to fight, instead of picking only 1, you get to pick 2 units with this ability. They then fight one after the other.
*'''SHINING COMPANY:''' Any {{AOSKeyword|Vanari}} units (Auralan Sentinels, Wardens, and Dawnriders) that is set up where a model is touching bases with two other models is automatically made a Shining Company, encouraging block-like tactics of old. Units in this fashion are harder to hit with a -1 to hit them., but they can't run or charge and they only get a pile-in distance of 1".
*'''ENDURING AS ROCK:''' Before the first battle round of the game and at the start of any of your hero phases, you can set up any number of {{AOSKeyword|Alarith}} units (Hammerboys and Stone Cows) into the Mountain Stance. Until the end of your next Hero Phase, your units now ignore Rend -1.
*'''TECTONIC FORCE:''' At the end of all combat phases, your {{AOSKeyword|Alarith}} units can each nominate an enemy unit within 1" of them (Though two units can't nominate the same enemy). The enemy is then shoved 2" in any direction so long as they are more than 1" from any {{AOSKeyword|Alarith}} unit and then you can let these units within 3" pile in 1" to continue fighting. This is your means of dominating the objective game and tossing enemies into deadly terrain.

===Command Traits===
'''LORDS OF BRILLIANCE'''

{{AOSKeyword|Cathallar}} only.

#'''Spellmaster:''' Once per turn in your Hero phase, you can re-roll 1 failed casting attempt. Well enough, as you'll be wanting every spell.
#'''Loremaster:''' Your General knows 1 extra spell from the Lore of Hysh
#'''Warmaster:''' When your general is on the field, at the start of your Hero phase, you get a CP on a 4+.

'''LORDS OF STONE'''

{{AOSKeyword|Alarith}} only, so for right now, just floaty rock guy

#'''Majestic:''' Add 1 to Bravery of friendly Lumineth if their unit is wholly within 12" of the General. Also, your enemies subtract 1 from Bravery while they are within 18" of the General. This seems boring, but with all the bravery debuffs in this army, you could easily have most of the opposing army at -3 Bravery while you're able to at least walk off the Bravery penalty of spending your share of Aetherquartz. A few casualties over multiple units could see elite armies heading for the hills real quick.
#'''Enduring:''' Add 3 to the General's wounds characteristic. Not bad when the big hat man is public enemy number one for keeping your war cows at top bracket, improving Rend of Cow Elves around him, and providing re-rolls to saves in the Moo Cow battalion. Sure he is ignoring Rend -1 (or -2) but he only has a 5+ save.
#'''Loremaster:''' General knows 1 extra spell from the Lore of High Peaks.

===Artefacts===
'''HEIRLOOMS OF HYSH'''

{{AOSKeyword|Cathallar}} only.

#'''Phoenix Stone:''' If a friendly {{AOSKeyword|Lumineth Realm-Lords Hero}} is slain within 12" of the bearer, before removing that model from play, roll a dice. On a 6 that model is not slain, all wounds allocated to it are healed and any wounds that currently remain to be allocated to it or its unit are negated
#'''Silver Wand:''' The bearer can cast 1 extra spell in their hero phase.
#'''Blade of Leaping Gold:''' Pick 1 of the Bearer's weapons. Add 3 to the Attacks characteristic of that weapon.

*You will be taking the Silver Wand. Everything else is hot garbage.

'''GIFTS OF THE MOUNTAIN'''

{{AOSKeyword|Alarith Heroes}} only.

#'''Hearthstone Amulet:''' 5+ FNP save.
#'''Ebony Stone:''' Each time the bearer is affected by a spell or endless spell, you can roll a die. On a 4+ Ignore the effects of that spell on the bearer.
#'''Magmic Hammer:''' If the bearer is a {{AOSKeyword|Wizard}} (Which the only one model to take this item is), add 1 tot he number of mortal wounds inflicted by Arcane Bolt spells that are cast by the bearer.

*The hammer isn't half bad if you aren't planning on casting anything else.

===Great Nations===
Think of them like Sylvaneth Glades, Idoneth Enclaves or Ossiarch Bonereaper Legions. They represent various nations of Lumineth Realm Lords that an army comes from.

====Syar====
*'''Gleaming Brightness:''' All your {{AOSKeyword|Syar}} units get 2 Aetherquartz reserves instead of 1. With how powerful these boosts are, you'll definitely appreciate a second wave of these working without worry about Morale. Pair with a Cathallar to avoid a permanent -2 to your bravery.
*'''Command Ability''' - ''Deplete Reserves:'' If a {{AOSKeyword|Syar}} unit uses an aetherquartz reserve ability, you may pick another {{AOSKeyword|Syar}} unit within 18" and still has a reserve. You may spend that reserve to give them the same ability. Great for boosting your forces in a big charge
*'''Command Trait:''' Choose 1 enemy hero within 6" of this hero. That enemy hero must attack your general, and your general gets +1 to hit for attacks against that enemy hero
*'''Artefact: The Perfect Blade''' Unmodified 3+ hits always hits, Unmodified 3+ wounds always wound, and unmodified 3s to save always fail. Would be great if you could give it to something other than a pansy wizard. (Will likely get a lot better when the more martial Heroes are released, as have been hinted at repeatedly in the Warhammer Community podcast)

If you like using the Aetherquartz reseves, this will give you more options to do so and spread out the benefits. A Cathallar is pretty much a requirement in this army because otherwise your troops will have the bravery of most Skaven trooops after blowing their reserves.

====Iliatha====
*'''Unity in Purpose:''' Once per phase, after a {{AOSKeyword|Iliatha Vanari}} uses a command ability, you may select another {{AOSKeyword|Iliathra Vanari}} within 3". That unit gains the same ability for free.
*'''Strike in Unison:''' During your shooting or combat phase you may select one {{AOSKeyword|Iliatha Vanari}} unit with 2 or more models and they reroll ones.
*'''Connected Souls:''' +2 Bravery to all Vanari and Aelemantari troops, making up your your mediocre base bravery. You can use an Aetherquartz now and still be in a better bravery position than normal
*'''Simulacra Amulet:''' The Stacy Simulacra Amulet vs The Becky Phoenix Stone. The first time the bearer dies, roll a dice. On a 4+ heal them back to full.

If you don't like the cow elves and want to run an all Vanari army, this is your choice. For mages, you should probably take a Scinari Cathallar over a stone mage for this army. This nation will likely have the most models on the field out of the 4 options you can pass buffs along pretty damn quick.

====Zaitrec====
*'''Lambent Mystics:''' First cast, unbind, or dispel each hero phase gets +1 and each wizard hero knows one extra spell, and each wizard in the army gets the spell overwhelming heat in addition to the spells they know.
*'''Fast Learner:''' General can dispel 1 additional spell and can reroll the second unbinding roll.
*'''Artefact:''' 6+ shrug for MWs, +2 if Teclis is on the battlefield
*'''Overwhelming Heat:''' Casts on 7. Enemy unit within 24" has halved movement, and if you roll a die and its equal to or higher than their save, they take D3

The magic choice. Consider taking Teclis with this Great Nation to get the most out of them. Or don’t, as they look to work fine without Mr. T-pose. Obviously protecting your mages is paramount and if the heroes die early you're pretty much screwed. Combine this with the twin stones for more bonus’s to magic.

====Ymetrica====
*'''Battle Trait''' Ignore up to -2 Rend for units in Mountain Stance, instead of -1
*'''Command Ability:''' End of combat phase, can use Tectonic Force again against another enemy unit within 1"
*'''Command Trait:''' When you pick this guy to fight, instead of fighting you can pick an enemy unit within 1" and deal D3 MW on a 2+.
*'''Artefact:''' +1 Attack to chosen weapon, 6+ Shrug, and 5+ Spell ignore

For the Lumineth with [[Ossiarch Bonereapers|boner]] envy. Obviously, this one is meant of Alarith units, so you should be going with a stoneguard, mountain spirit and stonemage army for this one. This will likely be your very small elite army.

===Spell Lores===

*'''Power of Hysh:''' With a cast value of 6, it can be cast on any unit with Sunmetal Weapons, and allows them to dish out mortal wounds on a 5+ instead of a 6+.

'''LORE OF HYSH'''
#'''Speed of Hysh:''' Casts on 5 Double the movement of a friendly unit within 18" of the caster.
#'''Solar Flare:''' Casts on 8. Pick a point on the battlefield within 10" of the caster. If there is an endless spell there, dispel it. If there is a unit there, roll # of models dice, Each +6 does 1 MW and until next hero phase -2 to enemy wizards cast, unbinds, and dispels.
#'''Lambent Light:''' Casts on 5. Pick an enemy unit within 18", you can reroll missile weapon attacks against that unit until your next hero phase. Remember you can reroll even if you don't miss. To optimize your mortal wounds reroll any dice that don't trigger one for the best odds of sniping your target.
#'''Ethereal Blessing:''' Casts on 6. Give Ethereal to a friendly unit within 18"
#'''Total Eclipse:''' Casts on 8. Until next hero phase, your opponent has to spend 2 CP instead of 1 when using command abilities
#'''Protection of Hysh:''' Casts on 8. Give friendly units wholly within 9" of the caster 5+ FNP. Doesn't stack with Teclis' sadly.

'''LORE OF THE MOUNTAINS'''

#'''Unyielding Calm:''' Casts on 4. Unit wholly within 18" doesn't have to take Battleshock tests.
#'''Crippling Vertigo:''' Casts on 6. Pick an an enemy unit within 18" of the caster. Until your next hero phase, roll 2d6 each time the unit tries to make a normal move, pile in, or charge. If the roll is higher than the unit's bravery, it cannot make that move.
#'''Voice of the Mountains:''' Casts on 6. -2 Bravery to all enemy units until end of turn, and then -1 until your next hero phase.
#'''Living Fissure:''' Casts on 6. Draw a 1mm line to a point 9" from the caster, on a 2+ deal D3 MWs to a unit that lines passes over
#'''Entomb:''' Casts on 7. Pick an enemy model within 18" and visible to the caster. Roll a dice, if the result is higher than the model's Wound characteristic, it is slain. If you roll a 6 and it is not enough to kill, deal D6 MW instead.
#'''Assault of Stone:''' Casts on 8. Choose an enemy unit wholly within 24" and visible to the caster. Roll a number of dice equal to the casting roll. For each result lower than the enemy unit's save value, they take 1 MW. Rolls of 1 or 2 never deal a mortal wound and Saves of "-" count as 6 for this rule.

'''ENDLESS SPELLS'''

#'''Sanctum of Amyntok:''' 30 points, creates a triangle around the caster and now counts as part of their model. Gives the enemy -1 to hit against the caster, gives the caster +1 to their save and might deal mortal wounds to enemy units in base contact (1 on a d6 roll of 4 or 5, d3 on a roll of a 6). Cheap and a good way to protect your squishy wizard, plus since the spell counts as part of their model, it makes their bubbles slightly bigger, which is good for those rules which require the unit to be "Wholly within" the bubble.
#'''Hyshian Twinstones:''' 30 points, starts at 1 and gets a charge every time a spell is cast within 12 inches of it (maxes out at 6). Your wizards can, while within 12 of it, choose to add the value of the charges to their casting roll. Neat, but you have to add it before you roll to cast, so while it can make sure you get a high value spell off, it's only of debatable usefulness. (Per the FAQ on its order of operations. After one spell is cast, it can give the rest of your wizards within range a permanent +2 to cast every single time. That's pretty damn useful, especially when stacked with Zaitrec and Teclis for +4 on every wizards first cast.)
#'''Rune of Petrification:''' 70 points, subtracts 1 from the run and charge rolls of non-Lumineth within 6, and does d3 Mortal Wounds to non-Lumineth within 6 on a 4+ at '''both''' the start and end of the movement phase. It's a good way of controlling enemy movement, but it's expensive, and the points are probably better spent elsewhere. Alternative take: A very powerful endless spell that not only limits your opponent's movement but encourages them to move away or suffer another D3 mortals (which they have a harder time doing while in close combat). Given the high cost of units, you will often have 40-100 points leftover for endless spells.

==Unit Analyis==
===HQ===
* '''Archmage [[Teclis]] and Celennar , [https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Lumineth_Warscroll_Teclis%20-%20eng.pdf| Spirit of Hysh] (660 pts):''' One of the dual gods of Hysh and another of the [[Everqueen|big]] [[Nagash|literal god-tier]] [[Archaon|models]]. He went from "the best wizard who's not a daemon, demigod or Slann" to "he gives Greater Daemons penis envy and makes Slann second-guess themselves". His and Celennar's melee attacks have decent rend, but Teclis is at his weakest in combat.
**Can cast 1, 2, or 3/4 spells. If 1, its auto cast and cant be unbound. If 2, it's auto cast at 12 but can be unbound. If 3 or 4, it's auto cast at 10 and can be unbound.
**Celennar’s Aura: +1 to cast, dispel, and unbind
**Can auto dispel 1 endless spell in your hero phase and auto unbind 1 enemy spell in their hero phase, and can still unbind unlimited enemy spells after his auto-unbind.
**Friendly units in Celennar's aura ignore spells on a 4+ and an enemy within 18" takes D3 MW.
**Spells: (1) ''Protection of Teclis'': 10 to cast. 5+ FNP within 18", can't be cast same turn as Hysh Protection. (2)''Storm of Searing White Light'': 10 to cast. Roll a dice for each enemy unit within 18" and visible. 1, nothing happens; 2-4 D3 MW, 5+ D6 MW. Oh, plus Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield and all 13 of the Lumineth specific spells.

* '''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Lumineth_Warscroll_Eltharion_EN.pdf Light of Eltharion]:''' (220 pts) [[Eltharion]] returns to us as a living suit of armor. A melee beat stick with ethereal bonuses to toughness & a ranged MW output to hold your opponent's focus & otherwise anchor your battle line (aka an invisible distraction carnifex w/CA of leadership 10 for everyone within 24"). Damage bonuses to charging & against enemy heroes will give you a reason to keep pushing forward with Eltharion, making him a solid target for Speed of Hysh so he can keep up with the Cavalry who would otherwise struggle/be wasted on the more elite units Eltharion is most likely going to earn his points back mulching through.

* '''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Lumineth_Warscroll_Avalenor%20-%20eng.pdf Avalenor, the Stoneheart King]:''' (360 points) The Mega Moo himself. Avalenor is a great support character for your army. It has 30” ranged attack which can do D6W at rend 2 (range decreases with damage) and has 6 (7 if it didn’t make a charge move this turn) that are Rend 1 with 5 Damage each. FIVE! That’s more than Sigmars hammer. He also has a ranged debuff which makes all enemy units within 12” have a -1 to hit, which is great in the center of your combat force. He also has a command ability which can give D3 Alarith units +1 attack <s>(inc himself)</s> [The command ability targets Alarith ''Aelfs'', which he himself obviously is not]. His damage, debuff range and shooting range decrease with damage, but if you have a Stonemage within 12 of him you can treat these ranges as if he has taken 0 wounds. So its swinging at full capacity until it or the mage is dead. Its not hard to take him down fast either, as he has a 3+ AS (which can be 2+ with the Aetherquartz for 1 phase) and a 5++ of in the protection of Hysh bubble. His last ability, Elder wisdom, allows a hero within 6" at the end of the hero phase gets to use a command ability for free next turn, so could work well with the light of Eltharion

* '''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Lumineth_Warscroll_Alarith%20Stonemage%20-%20eng.pdf Alarith Stonemage]:''' (130 pts) Floaty big hat man(?) himself. You will be seeing him in every list with Cow Elves (Stonegaurd) and Spirits of the Mountain. Fairly squishy at 5 wounds and only a 5+ save, until you remember he is ignoring Rend 1 (and Rend 2 in '''YMETRICA''' armies). Is your standard 1 cast 1 unbind wizard that provides a powerful buff in the form of his '''STONEMAGE STANCE'''. In the start of the combat phase, the Stonemage can bust a move that allows every '''ALARITH AELEMNTIRI''' WHOLLY WITHIN 12 inches an additional Rend on their melee weapons, in exchange for not making a pile in move. Easy Rend 2 on all my Stoneguard? Yes please. His spell, '''Gravitic Redirection''' is cast on a 5+. Stonemage activates his floaty chair and gains '''FLY''' until the next '''HERO PHASE'''. But the fun doesn't stop there. In addition, you can pick one enemy unit within 18 inches. That unit takes 1 MW, and until the next '''HERO PHASE''' its movement is HALVED and it can NO LONGER FLY. Oh, nice Terrorgheist/Mawcrusha/Zombie Dragon/Ironclad over there... be a shame if it couldn't move.... He also has the standard D3 Mage smacks at 3/3/-1/D3. But who cares he isn't for fighting, he is for bluffing your Cows (and Cow Elves) while trolling the nasty flying beatsticks your opponent foolishly "allows near" your units.

* '''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Lumineth_Warscroll_Scinari%20Cathallar%20-%20eng.pdf Scinari Cathallar]:''' (140 pts) These professional mourners are excellent at debuffing foes and mitigating the drawbacks of <s>crystal meth</s> aetherquartz. Aside from the obvious Scinari benefits, she also gains the '''Emotional Transference''' ability, allowing her to target any Lumineth Model within 18" and let them ignore battleshock. What's more, if that unit lost models, you can later target an enemy with 18" and add their casualties to their bravery roll. Basically her job is to keep your troops in the fight making the enemies all collectively shit themselves and run away.

===Battleline===
*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Lumineth_Warscroll_Wardens_EN.pdf Auralan Wardens]:''' (Battleline, 120pts, Min:10, Max:30) The Spearelves finally return home, and they come equipped with 3" range Sunmetal <s> spears </s> pikes. Like all the other Sunmetal weapons, each unmodified to hit roll of 6 causes a MW. The unit champion comes with a -1 rend sword, a one-use mortal wound bomb and he is a wizard as long as there are at least 5 models in the unit. Wardens are the only unconditional Battleline unit of the Lumineth. But for every unit of Auralan Wardens, you can take either a unit of Auralan Sentinels or Auralan Dawnriders as Battleline.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Lumineth_Warscroll_Dawnriders_EN.pdf Auralan Dawnriders]:''' (Conditional Battleline, 130pts, Min:5, Max:20) Their Deathly Furrows ability grants bonuses for attacking infantry: 1 additional attack for all weapons (ie rider & mount) if the target has 2 wounds or 2 additional attacks per weapon targeting 1 wounds models. Translates to a lot of dead clan rats but also (w/the MW output of their Sunmetal spears) glade guard, greatswords, ironbreakers or whatever other elite single wound infantry are going to be equally shish kebabed. Just stay away from Chaos Warriors & any kind of Cavalry which will negate your bonuses, if you can cast speed of Hysh on them though you'll be looking at a 28" standard move...and really having no excuse as far as being to choose the right battles/charges for them.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Lumineth_Warscroll_Sentinals%20-%20eng.pdf Vanari Auralan Sentinels]:''' (Conditional Battleline, 140pts, Min:10, Max:20) More MWs, delivered at a distance & w/o line of sight. While the spearelves poke & hold the line against heavy hitters (& the stoneguard do that better) with your horses mulching chaff, Sentinels are ideal assassins- pumping mortal wounds into the opposing (support) heroes from 30" away with Sunmetal arrows. Since mortal wounds trigger on "unmodified" 6+ (Or 5+ with Power of Hysh) 'Look out, Sir!' does not help those supporting heroes. Conveniently their bows have a second firing mode that deals more consistent normal damage with higher Rend, this is shorter range though (18") so really is more for supporting your spears or whatever flavor of tarpit needs the firepower after the opponent's general is kaput.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Lumineth_Warscroll_Alarith%20Stoneguard%20-%20eng.pdf Alarith Stoneguard]:''' (Conditional Battleline, 100pts, Min:5, Max:15) Your elite infantry choice and a battleline if you're playing Ymetrica. They come in two types, a dual handed diamondpick hammer or stone mallet with -1 rend and a captain with dual hammers with additional attacks. If you roll an unconditional 6 with the stone mallets you get 1 extra damage and if you get a 6 with diamond picks you get 1 mortal wound. This means mallets are better at killing crowds where as picks are better at dealing with armored units. Flexible elite choice depending on how you build them.

===Behemoths===
* '''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Lumineth_Warscroll_Alarith%20Spirit%20of%20the%20Mountain-%20eng.pdf Alarith Spirit of the Mountain]:''' (340 pts). The Mootain. Your primary beat-stick and use for command points. Outside of heroes, your only source of >1 damage attacks (well, the Stoneguard can get it on a 6 to wound with the Mallets) - at full health, his hammer is hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, -2 rend, and 5 damage each. Keeping a stonemage within 12" of him allows you to ignore his damage table. Finally, his command ability allows you to add 1 to the attack characteristic of 1 unit's melee weapons.

===Battalions===

*'''Alarith Temple:''' (120) '''MIN:'''690/'''MAX:'''1510
**'''Requirements:''' 1x Avalenor or Alarith Spirit of the Mountain, 1x Alarith Stonemage, 1-3x Alarith Stoneguard.
**'''Ability:''' At the start of your combat phase, a Stoneguard unit from this battalion that is wholly within 12" of a hero from the same batalion can reroll saves until end of phase but can only pile in 1".
If you are playing Ymetrica you may as well take this one with Avalenor. Makes your objective holders hold your objectives better.
*'''Auralan Legion:''' (120) '''MIN:'''780/'''MAX:'''2820
**'''Requirements:''' 1x Scinari Cathallar, 2-4x Vanari Auralan Sentinels, with an equal amount of Vanari Auralan Wardens
**'''Ability:''' Units within 3" of another unit from this Battalion can reroll saves of 1.
Again, make your top objective holders better at holding objectives. Cast Etherial Blessing vs Rend or otherwise use your Aetherquartz against that key charage and you will definitely keep control of that objective. This is particularly good for Iliatha armies, since you want to keep your Auralan units near each other anyway.
*'''Dawnrider Lance:''' (120)'''MIN:'''380/'''MAX:'''1810
**'''Requirements:''' 2-3x Vanari Dawnriders
**'''Ability:''' Units from this Battalion may reroll 1’s to hit on the charge.
This would actually be a good addition to ally in to Stormcast. Give them some fast cavalry to keep the hoards at bay.

==Allies==

Oddly, the army may only take Idoneth Deepkin as allies. They must have gotten over their deep-sea-ted hatred of Teclis. Consider taking a unit of 6 eels for dealing damage and taking objectives, as the army lacks flying and hard-hitting options outside of Teclis and the Mootains, respectively.

Your also have the Order option of '''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//ENG_Gotrek_Warscroll.pdf Gotrek Gurnisson]'''. For a similar point cost you are probably better off taking Teclis. And before you get excited looking at the spell list, Speed of Hysh can only target Lumineth Realm-lords units. He's still going to be as slow as anywhere else.

==Tactics==

{{Age_of_Sigmar_Tactics}}

Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Sylvaneth

2020-10-10T00:44:16Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Why play Sylvaneth? */

{{Age of Sigmar Faction|Faction=Sylvaneth|Logo=Most Friendly Being In Sylvaneth.jpg|Alliance=Order|Motto=WALKING TREES I TELL YOU! WALKING TREES!}}

Welcome to the Everqueen's glorious wooden host! Fleet of foot we spring from our forests, reaping our foes' lives with Mortal Wounds, before vanishing back into the woods, leaving those still alive confused and broken. When it comes to hit and run, keeping multi-wound models alive and literally shaping the battlefield to our needs, none compare. For we live between the Elite Armies of the Slaves to Darkness and the Ironjawz and Nighthaunt, our glades and copses are filled with singing dryads and solemn Kurnoth Hunters, ever watchful of the outsides and our enemies. For the Deepwood stirs...

==Why play Sylvaneth?==
* You like trees, nature and/or gardening.
* You like being able to teleport around the battlefield.
* You watched the Marvel films and are a big fan of Groot.
* Your favorite scenes in the Lord of the Rings is the Ents attack on Isengard or the Huron wiping out an Orc army, that or Treebeard is your favorite character. (not that I blame you)
* Your a painter who loves varieties of colors.
* You like armies that straddle the line between elite and horde.

====Pros====
*New battletome for 2019 that replaces the four fixed one-drop army lists with a whole host of choices.
*We have a lot of new and glorious models, almost completely in plastic (just one finecast, which you ''will'' be needing... and even then you can kitbash one up from plastic models).
*Easily paintable chaff with Dryads. Which is useful as you'll be painting a lot of them.
*Almost everything we have is at least -1 Rend.
*We get around quickly. One of our Battleline moves 7". Other stuff can teleport. If you like mobility and board control, we are one of the best choices to date.
*Just look at Alarielle model. Her buffs and damage output are almost as awesome as she looks.
*Massive Board Control if you can get those woods out.
*Kurnoth Hunters. Even by heavy infantry standard in AoS, absolute damage monsters. They will do a lot of heavy lifting.
*Great, often colourful paint schemes. Whether you want your trees to be in full bloom, fiery autumn or paint them as a haunted ghastly forest, you have a lot of choices.
*Lorewise, we boast one of the leaders of an entire realm and two survivors from the World-That-Was (three if you count the Spirits of Durthu).
*I am Groot.

====Cons====
*We are very bad to transport. Seriously it's a pain with all these small bits and twigs. Even foam packaged boxes hurt us. You'll want magnets and a big metal box.
*Limited defense against Mortal Wounds - just a single artefact on 5+ and a glade Command Ability on 6+.
*Those Citadel Woods have been replaced with newer models, but you're still going to be requiring a few sets of them, which is still going to be a significant investment and still be a pain to transport. Just not quite as bad as before.
*A reputation for being no fun to play against due to overly defensive turtling. That should be mitigated now, but opinions die hard.
*Spite Revenant hordes are super expensive in terms of cash.
*Current terrain and terrain placement rules make it more difficult to add wildwoods to the table, hindering mobility and tactical planning.
*I am Groot.

==Rulebooks==
{{AOSRulebooks|tome=Sylvaneth (2019)|points=[https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/40ad8aeb.pdf Sylvaneth Errata]}}

==Allegiance Abilities==

===Battle Traits===
Armies with the {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} allegiance have the following abilities:

*'''Awakened Wyldwoods''': After territories have been determined but before armies are set up, set up ONE Awakened Wyldwood anywhere on the battlefield more than 1" from any other terrain feature, 1" from enemy territory, and more than 6" from any objectives. Soon in this article you will see why you can't really play Sylvaneth without them. ''2019 Differences: Distance changes.''

*'''Forest Spirits''': You can set up a {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit aside for every unit deployed on the field. In any of your movement phases, you can deploy it on the battlefield. Units must be set up wholly within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood and more than 9" from any enemy models. This is their move for that movement phase. Sylvaneth deep strike. Exploit it with Spirits of Durthu, melee Kurnoth Hunters, and their shared battalion, Free Spirits. [[Rocks fall, everyone dies|Trunks fall, everyone dies]]. ''2019 Differences: Distance changes.''

*'''Navigate Realmroots''': Instead of moving in the movement phase, ONE {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit wholly within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood can be moved to wholly within 6" of another, different, wood, and of course more than 9" from any enemy. Treelord varieties have the Spirit Walk Ability and can teleport in addition to this one unit. ''2019 Differences: This used to be usable for multiple units a turn and the rolling after has gone. Definite nerf, but also simpler to use.''

*'''Places of Power''': After territories are chosen but before armies are deployed, select one terrain feature (this could be an Awakened Wyldwood YOU deploy according to order of operations... might need an FAQ). Friendly Sylvaneth units wholly within 6" of said terrain feature do not take battleshock tests. Interesting buff, it lets you sort of pick a focal point of where you want to commit to battle, and then have your, say, 30 block of dryads get to ignore battleshock while holding up the enemy.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Command Traits}}===
A general of an army with a {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} allegiance can choose one Command Trait from the lists below (be advised that if you choose your army to be one of the Wargroves, you are forced to take a specific command trait instead of one of these):

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Aspects Of War}}'''
#'''Dread Harvester''': If you charged, you can reroll melee hit rolls.
#'''Gnarled Warrior''': Reroll saves of 1. ''This used to be ignore rend unless it's -2 or better.''
#'''Gift of Ghyran''': Your general heals 1 wound at the start of each of your hero phases. ''This used to bump to D3 if near a wood.''
#'''Lord of Spites''': Reroll all wound rolls of 1. ''This used to be reroll first failed hit roll. So, that's better now.''
#'''Warsinger''': +2 to any charge rolls made for friendly {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units that are wholly within 12" of your general. Good choice for turning a spirit path walk into a charge on the same turn; essential for any alpha strike lists. ''Used to be +1 and within 10" (but not wholly).''
#'''Wisdom of the Ancients''': All friendly {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units wholly within 12" of your general in the battleshock phase add 1 to their Bravery. Best near revenants, your most vulnerable to battleshock. ''Used to be within 10" (but not wholly).''

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Aspects Of Renewal}}'''

{{AOSKeyword|Wizards}} only
#'''Arcane Bounty''': General knows 1 extra Deepwood spell.
#'''Mystic Regrowth''': If General successfully cast a spell, then heal D3 wounds at end of hero phase.
#'''Voice Of Warding''': General can unbind one extra spell per turn.
#'''Glade Lore''': General gets +1 to casting rolls when wholly within 6" of a wood.
#'''Spellsinger''': General gets +6 range of all spells. Consider using the balewind vortex to double this. ''2019 changes: This used to be the silverwood circlet.''
#'''Radiant Spirit''': If affected by a spell/endless spell, roll a dice, on a 4+ ignore the effect. Note the correct usage of affect and effect.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Artefacts}}===

One {{AOSKeyword|hero}} in an army with a {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance and has chosen to take the {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance abilities, plus one {{AOSKeyword|hero}} for every battalion selected, can choose one Artefact from the lists below.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Weapons Of The Glades}}'''

These affect a single melee weapon belonging to the bearer
#'''Daith's Reaper''': Additional rend of 1. ''Used to be on 6 get -4 rend. Much more useful now.''
#'''Greenwood Gladius''': If the bearer charges, +2 attacks that turn.
#'''Autumns Ire''': Re-roll hits and wounds of 1 as long as the bearer is wounded.
#'''Winnowstaff''': Can re-roll all hits against enemies with Wounds of 1.
#'''Ancient Barkblade''': +1 damage.
#'''The Darkest Bough''': On an unmodified wound roll of 6, deals an additional D3 mortal wounds

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Boons Of The Everqueen}}'''
#'''The Oaken Armour''': Reroll saves of 1. ''Used to be +1 to save rolls.''
#'''Briarsheath''': -1 Hit penalty for anyone attacking the bearer.
#'''Glamourweave''': 5+ save-after-the-save (mortal wounds only). Great for a Spirit of Durthu tanking Wounds because he can use that to protect himself, and also the only thing in the army that ignores mortal wounds. ''Used to be only 6+.''
#'''Lashvines''': For every non-negated wound from a melee weapon, on a 6 from a D6, the attacker takes 1 mortal wound.
#'''Silken Snares''': Ignore rend of -1 from enemies.
#'''Nightbloom Garland''': Unit is invisible to enemy units more than 12" away.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Verdant Treasures}}'''

#'''Seed of Rebirth''': The first time you lose your last wound roll a D6. On 2+ they come back to life with D3 wounds. Obviously best for a Branchwych/wraith, as a monster with D3 Wounds might as well be dead again. Especially useful on a Branchwych, as if she dies and comes back, she still counts as having taken wounds for the purposes of her bonus. ''Used to not require the dice roll.''
#'''Wraithstone''': Subtract 1 from the Bravery of enemy units within 10" in the Battleshock Phase. Combine with Spite-Revenants for best results.
#'''Everdew Vial''': +2 to run and charge rolls.
#'''Lifewreath''': Roll a dice in hero phase, on 3+ all {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} units wholly within 10" heal +D3 wounds.
#'''Crown Of Fell Bowers''': Pick an enemy within 6" at the start of the combat phase. All friendly {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} can re-roll all wound rolls against them for that phase.
#'''Etherblossom''': Bearer can fly. Durthu will love this.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Relics Of Nature}}'''

{{AOSKeyword|Wizards}} only.
#'''Acorn of the Ages''': Set up a Wyldwood wholly within 12", one-use only. The old favourite artefact of the one drop armies. You can simply throw a forest-shaped wrench into enemy charge lanes, you can let an isolated Hero summon their own reinforcement spawn point, you can make some cover to make a stand. ''This used to be within 5" (not wholly).''
#'''Spiritsong Stave''': Additional spell cast per turn. Amazing!
#'''The Vesperal Gem''': Once per turn, automatically succeed a Deepwood spell roll, which cannot be unbound. Sounds great.... but, then roll a dice, on a 1 you get D3 mortals. Ouchy. Good thing you have healing out the ass. Amazing relic because while you NEED magic, you don't have a lot of multi spell casters OR casting bonuses. Very solid choice. Note, Verdant Blessing is not part of Deepwood, so no autotree spamming.
#'''Luneth's Lamp''': +2 unbinding/dispelling rolls for endless spells.
#'''Hagbane Spite''': If you successfully unbind a spell, the caster gets 1 mortal.
#'''Wychwood Glaive''': Pick a melee weapon, it gets +2 damage against wizards.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Spell Lore}}===

All {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} {{AOSKeyword|wizard}}s know Verdant Blessing, plus they can take a spell from the Deepwood Spell Lore.

'''Verdant Blessing''' (6+): Casting value 6. Sets up an Awakened Wyldwood wholly within 24". As useful as the Wyldwoods are to you, this spell is pretty good. ''This used to be 18", part of the Deepwood list, and was more or less auto include''.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Deepwood Spell Lore}}'''

Every '''WIZARD''' in an army with a {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance and has chosen to take the {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance abilities can choose one of the following Spells:
#'''Throne of Vines''' (5+): Caster gets +2 to cast, but only as long as you don't move. <s>Amazing</s> MUST TAKE for Allarielle and her three casts per turn, which allows her to summon woods on a 4+ and buff her Metamorphosis! Also a must take on a Branchwraith with stave to help her get the Dryads out more consistently. Note that RAW, this effect stacks! Take on a non moving multi caster and by mid game you won't be able to fail a cast and there will be no way to unbind you. ''This used to be +D3 to cast and unbind.''
#'''Regrowth''' (5+): Casting value 5. Heal D6 Wounds to a friendly, visible {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} unit wholly within 18". TAKE IT. I don't care about your strategy, take it. Alarielle? Take it. Treelord Ancient? Take it. Drycha? Take it unless you want a suicide bomb. ''Used to also heal D3 on non-sylvaneth.''
#'''The Dwellers Below''' (7+): Pick a unit within 10", roll a D6 for every model in the unit, every 6 deals a Mortal Wound. Basically Vermintide/New Treason of Tzeentch. It's good, with a potentially gigantic damage output, but unless used against units of 20+, Arcane Bolt will probably do more.
#'''Deadly Harvest''' (6+): Each enemy unit within 3" gets D3 mortals. Nice when you're stuck in melee, but only really good in combination with the Spellsinger command trait. Also, remember that it gets better against multiple small units, but worse against horde armies - essentially the opposite of Dwellers below. ''This used to be call The Reaping.''
#'''Verdurous Harmony''' (7+): A unit wholly within 18" regains 1 slain model (or D3 for Dryads, Tree/Spite Revs). Amazing spell, just can be a little tricky to consistently cast without bonuses. 'New spell! Is a variant of an old wargrove spell.''
#'''Treesong''' (7+): For one enemy unit within 16" and 6" of a wood, you get to re-roll melee hit and wound rolls of 1 against them. What? Very situational and high casting value. Avoid. ''Completely rewritten, used to move a wood 2D6.''

==={{color|#01bbe3|Endless Spells}}===

Note that unlike the some of the [[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Malign Sorcery|generic]] endless spells, the Sylvaneth spells can't be used by your opponent against you (other than moving them out of harms way).

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Gladewyrm_ENG.pdf Gladewyrm]''' (30pts, CV 7, predatory 8"): Ancient protectors of the <s>[[Dune|spice]]</s> realmroots.
**Does D3 mortal wounds to non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units within 1" and heals D3 wounds to {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units wholly within 6" of where it ends up.
**Pretty good for the cost. For best effect, lob it in the middle of any combat not involving your battleline.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Vengeful_Skullroot_ENG.pdf Vengeful Skullroot]''' (40pts, CV 6, predatory 8"): Spooky tree
**Adds D3 to fleeing non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} models that fail battleshock tests within 3".
**Also does D3 mortal wounds to non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units it passes across, boosted to D6 if said units are within 3" of an {{AOSKeyword|AWAKENED WYLDWOOD}}.
**If you can get that D6 off, then this is great. Given the myriad ways of avoiding battleshock, and that enemies avoid woods where possible, you might find better use out of the slightly cheaper Gladewyrm.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spiteswarm_Hive_ENG.pdf Spiteswarm Hive]''' (50pts, CV 7): More of Drycha's little gribbles.
**Lets ''you'' (and only you) choose one of the following effects in ''every'' hero phase (including your opponents) each turn it's around: Roll a dice for each {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit wholly within 8", on a 2+ ''either'' add 3" to normal moves and charge moves ''or'' roll re-roll saves of 1.
**Great spell, however be careful when using the move bonus that your models don't get out of range too quickly.
**Best case is to place it halfway between you and an enemy, use the move bonus to get into combat, then use the save bonus during your opponents turn (assuming you survive the first round of combat).
**The small base size helps to stop it getting in the way of movement, assuming you point the gribbles out of the way.

==Glades==
Every Sylvaneth army gets to optionally belong to a glade ''for free'', which gives you an extra ability, command ability, fixes your General's command trait (you cannot choose from the Allegiance Abilities lists) and fixes your first artefact.

The Core FAQ clarifies that if you take Alarielle/Drycha as your general and a Glade, you don't get the Glade's Command Trait.

''2019 Differences: These are named after the Wargroves from the old Battletome, but they're very different. Instead of being battalions, which restrict what units you take, they force you into a set of abilities/artefacts.''

===Dreadwood===

*''Ability'': '''Malicious Tormentors''': Spite Revs reroll hits of 1.
*''Command Ability'': '''Sinister Ambush''': Once per turn, take a unit within 18" of a Hero and replace them anywhere on the battlefield, >9" of enemy units.
*''Command Trait'': '''Paragon Of Terror''': Enemy units reroll successful battleshock tests when within 6" of your general.
*''Artefact'': '''Jewel Of Withering''': -1 to melee wound rolls attacking the bearer.

The spooky choice. Gives a reason to use lots of Spite-Revenants. The battleshock reroll jells nicely with the Spite's -1 bravery buff, and hit rerolls on top of their 3+ to hit should make them terrifying. The teleporting is only good for deep striking a single unit, but combine with wyldwood teleporting and you can also throw over a bunch of Treelords and a big unit of Dryads at the same time.

===Gnarlroot===

*''Ability'': '''Shield The Arcane''': Units reroll hits of 1 when within 12" of friendly Gnarlroot Wizards.
*''Command Ability'': '''The Earth Defends''': One unit within 12" of a hero negates wounds or mortal wounds on 6+ for that combat phase.
*''Command Trait'': '''Nurtured By Magic''': Once per turn, if your general successfully casts a spell, a unit wholly within 18" heals D3 wounds.
*''Artefact'': '''Chalice Of Nectar''': Roll 3 dice when casting or unbinding and discard one of your choice.

The magicy life choice.
*The ability to reroll 1s (for free) overlaps with the Arch-Revenant, so reasonable chance you already have that covered. But might be an excuse to drop Archie, freeing up 100 sweet points, or use both to further extend across your army (remember, Archie isn't a wizard).
*Command ability is best left for emergency damage limitation on a crucial unit that somehow got into melee, unless you're really good at rolling sixes and have lots of spare CPs.
*The Chalice, which means the bearer well may never fail a cast, sounds awesome at first glance, but it won't make you into a top-tier spellcaster. Your best wizard, Alarielle can't take artefacts (neither can Drycha), so that leaves a you with a Wraith, Wych or Ancient. With your artefact slot taken, the only way to boost your number of casts is to use the the Balewind Vortex on the edge of a wood with the Wraith or Wych, essentially giving you a branchwych bomb (see Branchwych section) or supercharging your Dryad summoner and making them a big target. Safest option is to use it by itself on your Wraith (hidden deep in a wood) to 'almost' guarantee those Dryad summons.
**Vesperal Gem (which guarantees the cast, but with a small chance of mortals) is roughly equivalent to the Chalice without tying you to a glade. This can then be supplemented with Spellsinger (+6 range, which you can double by using the balewind vortex), or Winterleaf/Harvestboon/Dreadwood if you're taking a battalion.
*The trait, whilst great at keeping stuff alive, is limited the same way as the Chalice - Wych, Wraith or Ancient only. Great for keeping an Ancient alive and keeping the damage table topped up. Wraith is less than ideal as you ideally want her away from the action.

===Heartwood===

*''Ability'': '''Courage for Kurnoth''': +1 Bravery wholly within 12" of heroes.
*''Command Ability'': '''Lord of the Hunt''': [[Markerlight|Reroll melee hit and wound rolls of 1 against 1 enemy unit within 12" of a hero]].
*''Command Trait'': '''Legacy of Valour''': If the general is slain, do D3 mortal wounds to an enemy unit within 1" on a 2+. On a 6, do D6 instead.
*''Artefact'': '''Horn of the Consort''': Reroll hits for Kurnoth Hunters wholly within 12".

The reliability choice. The CA overlaps with the Artefact as is a better version of the free one you get with Arch Revenant (now you get wound rolls too). Trait is an added bonus for any hero you ''expect'' to die on in melee somewhere - again, Durthu comes to mind. Those mortals could quite easily finish of that unit he just couldn't quite shift. Bravery boost is nothing to be sniffed at. Put the artefact on the Arch Revenant and have her babysit some Bows (with her +1 attacks and rerolls of 1), then as the battle shifts to meleem, run 18" (that plus two lots of 12" range is 42") to the frontlines to boost your Swords and Scythes. Or throw on a Wych near the bows and put Archie at the front to benefit from both reroll abilities.

===Harvestboon===

*''Ability'': '''Vibrant Surge''': Reroll melee hits of 1 after charging that turn.
*''Command Ability'': '''Fertile Ground''': A unit within 12" of the General gets +1 attacks to all melee weapons.
*''Command Trait'': '''Seek New Fruit''': After attacking, your General can move 6", ending more than 3" from enemy units.
*''Artefact'': '''The Silent Sickle''': One melee weapon of the bearer gets +1 attacks.

The Sparta General choice.
*To make decent use of the Command Trait, you're going to be taking Durthu (or maybe an Ancient on 1000pt games). Similarly, the Artefact is best used on Durthu (or Ancient).
*The Command Ability and Ability are both more-or-less covered with the Arch-Revenant. Either use this as a replacement for the Archie, or load both Command Abilities onto a single unit (assuming you've been holding back the CPs) for +2. Use these on your Kurnoths or your already powered up Durthu. Damn.

===Ironbark===

*''Ability'': '''Stubborn And Taciturn ''': Reroll battleshock tests when wholly within 12" of any heroes.
*''Command Ability'': '''Stand Firm''': Pick one enemy unit that charges within 1", roll a dice. On 2+ they get D3 mortals.
*''Command Trait'': '''Mere Rainfall''': Your General rerolls saves against missile weapons.
*''Artefact'': '''Ironbark Talisman''': +1 for melee wound rolls.

In addition, you get Dispossed and Fyreslayers as allies.

The dwarven choice. Rainfall will probably just make your opponent target elsewhere (but you are forcing that choice upon them). Stand Firm is going to stop any small heroes from charging you.

===Oakenbrow===

*''Ability'': '''Our Roots Run Deep''': Subtract 2 from wounds taken by Treelords of all varieties when looking at the damage table.
*''Command Ability'': '''Yield To None''': Battleshock immunity wholly within 16" of a selected hero.
*''Command Trait'': '''Regal Old-growth''': +1 wound.
*''Artefact'': '''Dawnflask''': 6+ save against wounds and mortal wounds.

The Treelord choice. With all the point reductions to Treelords this sounds like a good idea, but with how terrible the bonuses are, you should probably just use a better Grove. The ability is going to keep Durthu's sword at full strength for twice as long (Up to 4 wounds taken, instead of 2) - but sadly the trait doesn't stack here.

===Winterleaf===

*''Ability'': '''Winter's Bite''': For ''all your units'', unmodified melee hit rolls of 6 score 2 hits.
*''Command Ability'': '''Branch Blizzard''': Extra 12" shooting attack. Roll a dice for each model in target unit, each 6+ is one mortal.
*''Command Trait'': '''My Heart Is Ice''': Every melee wound inflicted on your general, roll a dice, on a 5+ the attacker gets one mortal.
*''Artefact'': '''Frozen Kernel''': Once per game at the start of the combat phase, 1 friendly WINTERLEAF unit wholly with 18" of the bearer can pile in and attack twice. It does the second pile in and attack right after the first time it attacks, and only if it is still within 3" of an enemy unit.

The obvious choice.
*The ability exploding sixes is super deadly. The math works out as more or less the same as +1 to hit. And this is ''across your whole army!''
*The general's feedback on 5+'s in melee can also be super deadly. Can also help keep your guy alive - on a straight Behemoth vs Behemoth fight, those 5+'s will weaken your opponents attacks as it drops down its damage table.
*Regardless of how you play it, the Kernel is always super deadly. But it needs a bit of finesse to ensure you pick the best moment to use it - given that you choose at the start of the phase when to use it, it's very easy to super power something that didn't need it. Make sure to use it before your general is killed too.
*The shooting attack isn't quite so super deadly as everything else, but who cares when you have everything else above. Mostly only of use against hordes and if you've got plenty of spare CPs (which you won't).
*If you're unsure what to take, unsure of how to play Sylvaneth and just want to throw everything into combat then just take Winterleaf. Simple. Super deadly.
*On 1000pt games, where you can only really squeeze in a single big guy, and you really want to take Drycha, then Winterleaf is still useful. Simply make Archie/Wraith/Wych your general. Sure, the Command Trait is wasted, but the Ability and Artefact are still really good.

==Warscrolls==
==={{color|#dda16f|Named Leaders}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Sylvaneth_Alarielle_ENG.pdf Alarielle the Everqueen]:''' (600pts). As expected from the next big over-the-top God model, Alarielle is downright terrifying. Specifics? Sure.
**The lady has a massive pool of 16 Wounds with a 3+ Save and yet she still rocks a 16" Flying Move stat.
**She can heal a Sylvaneth models around her for D3 each turn.
** She also has a strong throwing spear with massive 30" range and the beetle hits harder than anything else in the game. It's so damn strong it damages people standing nearby if it charges and has five damage 5(!) attacks. And her other weapon is basically the Massive Impaling Talon, but supercharged and with 4 attacks and any hit rolls of 6 score D3 mortal wounds.
**Like Nagash, Archaon and Morathi, she is not really something you compare to normal models. She's too powerful for that. She's simply something you try to survive.
**Three casts per turn. Use them to cast Malign Sorcery endless spells and consider giving her the Throne of Vines spell.
**She gets a one shot unblockable summon of a Treelord (regular), 3x Kurnoths, 20x Dryads, 10x Tree- or Spite-Revenants or, umm, a single Branchwych. This effectively dropping her cost by ~200 points, and you get to decide which unit to spend those ~200 points on during the game. Remember, you've probably already got your Dryad summoning covered by the Branchwraiths.
**Back down to 600 points (as per FAQ). If you think you can keep her alive, then she's now a good pick.
**Her spell Metamorphosis (7+), you roll as many dice as the casting roll, and each 4+ deals a mortal to a unit within 16". If that kills the enemy, then you can place a wood there.
**''2019 Differences: Talon no longer auto kills, instead dealing Mortal Wounds, and the spell Metamorphosis is more expensive. However, Battering Ram is now based on the model rather than a terrain piece, but only effects enemy units and Ghyran's Wrath can be used every time (for a CP).''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Drycha_Hamadreth_ENG.pdf Drycha Hamadreth]:''' (300pts). Drycha is back and more pissed off than ever.
**Now if an unmodified hit roll from Flitterfuries or Squirmlings is a 6, it's a mortal wound instead of going through the attack sequence.
**Flitterfuries are an 18" shooting attack with 10 attacks single damage, rend -1. Meanwhile Squirmlings are 2" melee attack, also with 10 attacks single damage, but not rend. At the start of each battle round, you can choose what mood she's in, and as a result one of these attack doubles to 20!
**In addition, her talons give another 6 attacks at damage 2, rend -2. This lady is a beast!
**She's also excessively fast with a 9" Move that is not weakened by her damage table.
**Her spell (6+) scores D3 damage to every unit within 10" based on a roll against the unit's bravery. This ends up being difficult to score damage against high bravery armies such as Death. This spell combos up with her relationship to Spite-Revenants though. The Spites lower enemy Bravery in order to power her damage-off-of-Bravery spell whereas she grants them better To Wound rolls.
**''2019 Differences: She's gone up from 280 points. For that you get both Flitterfuries and Squirmlings, which now have normal attack profiles instead of mortals, but the slendervines attack has gone. You get to choose her mood, instead of rolling, but it's effect isn't quite as good. The spell is simplified, both reducing its max damage, but making it more likely do damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/aos-warscroll-yltharis-guardians-en.pdf Ylthari]:''' (180pts, with Guardians) Shadespire Hero takes root in AOS.
**Requires you to bring Ylthari's Guardians along with.
**Similar to a Branchwych with a bit more melee power and is labelled a {{AOSKeyword|thornwych}}.
**Re-rolls wound rolls of 1.
**Her spell (6+) is a supercharged arcane bolt, giving you an average of 2 mortals per cast.
**Might be best leaving her for Shadespire. You're paying 20 points more for her and the Guardian's than you would for a Branchwych and 5 Tree Revenants and not really gaining much in return.
**Labelled Oakenbow, which as per FAQ, means that if you take another glade, these guys do not benefit from glade bonus. Which makes her now even more useless than before.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

==={{color|#dda16f|Generic Leaders}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Branchwraith_ENG.pdf Branchwraith]:''' (80pts) Essential summoning support
**As a Hero she sports a very meh stat wheel with the exception of her above average movement speed (7"). Her melee will offer only token resistance to opponents, big surprise, she's a Wizard after all, but when in a wood, she gets -1 to hits made against her, which helps. Although you shouldn't really ever be getting her into combat, she should ideally spend her life hidden in woods, teleporting between them.
**That summoning though allows you to summon 10 Dryads ''every turn''. Game breaking? Well, not quite. Firstly you need to successfully cast and not get unbound; secondly said Dryads need placing in a wyldwood more than 9" from an enemy. You basically have to put a forest in your backfield and just use it to churn out dryads, then teleport them where you need them to go. You could be looking at 2-3 movement phases before they can charge anything. If you have any sense you will keep this crazy looking plant lady in your starting Wyldwood (making the lady harder to hit, plus raising her Save like normal cover) or behind your Wyldwood keeping her out of unbind range (30").
**Consider giving your wraith anything that bumps the spell cast (7+, 58.3% chance) to try and guarantee a whole 100pts of Dryads every turn. Take the Stave for an additional cast plus the Throne spell; cast throne (5+, 83.3% chance) then summon at 5+ (again, 83.3% chance). Turn two, another throne cast and you are down to needing 3+. Keep going and you're more or less guaranteed that cast, plus it'll be impossible to unbind. Plus in later turns also gives you the bonus of a cheeky bolt/shield/harmony cast. If you really don't want to use up that artefact slot then another option is taking a battalion and Gnarlroot - the chalice gives her 3 dice, discarding 1, giving you a 74.5% chance.
**Consider taking two Branchwraiths. Use the second one for verdant blessing wood summonings. If the Dryad summoning wraith dies, you have a spare one. Now you can afford to be a little riskier and put one in a wood near the front lines to get those new Dyrads into combat quicker, or get those woods out further. And if that's convinced you, then maybe you want to consider a third Branchwraith. Arm them with an array of Deepwood spells and you should always have something useful to cast, especially given turn 5 (or even 4) it might not be useful to summon more bodies that you won't get into combat. This is probably overboard.
**''2019 Differences: Just some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Branchwych_ENG.pdf Branchwych]:''' (80pts) Aggressive support wizard.
**Same meh stat wheel as the Branchwraith, but with slightly better melee.
**As long as she's taken at least one wound in damage, she gets 2 extra attacks on her scythe.
**Her spell Unleash Spites (5+) is a damaging pulse effecting all enemy units within 9". It works best against the more units that are in range - If there are only 1 or 2 target units in range, then arcane bolt will usually do more damage than the pulse, but it gets better against more units, of course. On average, you'll expect 1.11 mortal wounds per unit.
**In Skirmish, the pulse is extremely broken, as ''every'' model is a unit. So, get within range of the front line and suddenly every model is hit with rolling a ''minimum'' of 5 dice, giving mortal wounds on sixes. Most of those models are single wound chaff, because skirmish doesn't allow you to take any of the good stuff, and you've got a game winning massacre. Sadly that pulse is the only thing we've got going for ourselves in Skirmish.
**The oft whispered about ''Branchwych Bomb'' involves sticking her on a Balewind Vortex inside a mid to frontline wood, giving her Deadly Harvest, Spellsinger, and using whatever casting bonuses you can get hold of. Then sit back and cast both spells, spamming mortals out in 21" and 15" bubbles. In practice you're tying up far too much to get this off reliably. Just don't run crying when your 5 wound guy gets wiped out pronto after one round of this. Clearly hilarious if you can get it to work.
***It's possible to invest even more into this strategy by adding an Umbral Spellportal, but even that doesn't make it worthwhile.
**Difficult to recommend her when you can get a spare Dryad summoning Branchwraith for the same cost, and give her Dwellers Below which isn't that much worse than Unleash Spites.
**''2019 Differences: scythe attacks bonus is better as it is now whilst damaged, instead of just that turn. Also some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spirit_of_Durthu_ENG.pdf Spirit of Durthu]:''' (300pts) This is <s> SPARTAAAAA</s> *ahem* supercharged Treelord.
**The Spirit of Durthu is an absolute damage monster, with extremely powerful shooting, terrifying melee and all the standard tricks of the vanilla Treelord.
**NOT a named character (and therefore not reduced to 0-1 in Matched Play, etc etc), but very expensive.
**A shooting attack that is basically the vanilla Treelord's Strangleroots on steroids, with higher range, more shots and higher damage per shot.
**His sword is just about as terrifying as it looks, with constant damage 6 so long as he stays in good health and 2 bonus attacks for being near a wood.
**You really need those big melee attacks to actually hit. So have consider having your Sylvaneth be from Ghyran, and give your Spirit of Durthu the Ghyrstrike Relic. 3 attacks (plus 2 if near a wyldwood), 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 6 damage. Holy good fuck.
**That damage table is a killer for him. Just two wounds and he goes from 6 to D6 damage. Do the math, and a block of Kurnoth's will output a lower higher end, but similar average output and degrade slower.
**He also adds 1 to the Bravery of friendly Sylvaneth.
**Now only 300 points since the FAQ. Maybe we'll start seeing him in lists again.
**''2019 Differences: Other than the stuff copied across from the Vanilla Treelord, he loses the damaging shooting supercharge and the ability to take wounds from others (not that either were used much). The bonus for being near a wood is a fixed 2 attacks instead of D3. So, no practical changes, but he has gone down from 380 points! Drycha and Durthu are almost level pegging, and make for a scary combo.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Treelord_Ancient_ENG.pdf Treelord Ancient]:''' (260pts). The swiss army knife Treelord
**If Durthu is a supercharged Treelord, then this is the slightly weaker but more useful version. He retains all the abilities and powers of the vanilla.
**Compare to a Vanilla Treelord, this guy has 1" less movement and 1 less attack on its Sweeping Blows. This doesn't seem like much, but the drop from 4 to 3 attacks is actually quite drastic. And what does this old fella get in return? An extra 3 to its Bravery, 18" range on its strangle roots, gains a command ability and becoming a freakin' wizard!
**His unique spell will do D3 damage to any enemy units on or around your woods. It's either a great deterrent to entering your woods or a great punishment if the opponent was dumb enough to actually do it.
**Once per battle he can unconditionally summon a new wood. This makes him an almost must take if you want a ''guaranteed'' second wood out on your first turn. Note this is once per game, not once per Ancient per game. Wholly within 18" is not that long a range, so if you're dropping turn one (before you've moved anything) you're not going to be using it for backline deep striking. However, If you teleport the Ancient to the wood, then next turn a 24" verdant blessing wood should give you all the range you need.
**Has a Command Ability that lets all the Sylvaneth around him reroll saves of 1s.
**He's got a lot of stuff going on. And now at 260 points maybe he's decent value, ''if'' you use everything he has to offer. Possibly works best in 1000pt lists where you've got less room other stuff.
**''2019 Differences: Other than the stuff copied across from the Vanilla Treelord, the wood summons is just once unconditionally instead of on a 4+, and some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Arch_Revenant_ENG.pdf Arch-Revenant]:''' (100pts) A newbie in the Sylvaneth ranks, added with the Looncurse battlebox.
**Is very fast, with a move of 12" and an ability to fly until she loses her mount (see below).
**Has the best non-Behemoth Hero melee in Sylvaneth (which doesn't say much): three 2" 3+/3+/-2 Dmg 2 attacks with her glave and a single 4+/3+ Dmg D3 attack with her mount.
**Slightly more survivable than a Branchwych, with five wounds, a 4+ save and an ability to sacrifice her mount to negate one allocated normal or mortal wound.
**Has a shield for either defensive or offensive use: at the start of the combat phase you may chose to use it to re-roll either save rolls or hit rolls of 1.
**Automatically buffs Kurnoth Hunters within 12" of herself, allowing them to re-roll hit rolls of 1 (both melee and shooting).
**Has a great command ability, adding 1 attack to each model's weapon in a unit within 9" (12" if the Arch-Revenant is your General). Combine this ability with alpha-striking unit of Tree-Revenants, or buff the hell out of Kurnoth Sword/Scythes - either way, it'll really hurt your opponent. Only works in the melee phase, so no buffing Kurnoth bows.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

==={{color|#dda16f|Battleline}}===
''Unconditional battleline''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Dryads_ENG.pdf Dryads]:''' (100/270pts, min 10, max 30) Your rank and file angry trees. These ladies are thankfully quite versatile and so can be used for a variety of situations.
**At first glance the ladies don't look like much, having only a 5+ Save and 2 attacks at 4+/4+/-/1. But they quickly become incredible as in units of 10+ they gain +1 Save, they hit on 3+ in your combat phase and they also have 2" range on their attacks, letting them fight in thick, two-row hedges. They also profit from being near a wood (-1 to hits against them), this is in addition to +1 save for being in cover. They are also very fast at 7". Keep them in big units as the Save-bonus and the 2" range heavily reward you for doing so.
**You can abuse their buffed save rolls by adding a unit of Sisters of the Thorn so you can reroll failed saves (which also deals a mortal on 6), so a large unit in a wood now has 3+ with reroll. For chaff, that's pretty damn good. However, those Sisters are going to cost you a fair bit in return.
**With Cities of Sigmar, Sisters of the Thorn's spell can only be used on WANDERERS unit, so Dryads cannot make use of it anymore.
**Remember to bring at least an additional 20 of these for the Branchwraith to summon. Unless you plan on playing super defensive, you won't need more than 30 spare.
**''2019 Differences: Wholly within measuring means no more daisy chains across the board. However, the large unit bonus is now 10 instead of 12. With all the other changes going on, pure Dryad spamming is probably no longer our strongest build.''

''Battleline in {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}}''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Tree_Revenants_ENG.pdf Tree-Revenants]:''' (80/420pts, min 5, max 30) Troops for tricksy players - not your mainline infantry.
**At first glance look disappointing, with basically the same stat-wheel as Dryads but lower Move. Now here's where it gets good....
**They have Rend in melee, unlike the Drayds.
**They have the coolest rerolls in the game, getting to reroll 1 dice per ''phase''. So this seems wonky in melee, doesn't it? Well, it also allows them to reroll the dice to run, one of the charge dice, the Battleshock dice... you get the picture.
**The standards allow them to pile in 6" which lets them get more attacks in.
**Most importantly, the musician allows them to use a better Spirit Paths rule, letting you take them off the table and then place them '''anywhere''' on the table more than 9" from enemy units.
**Leader either gets two additional attacks or +1 damage.
**Do ''not'' use these guys as as you would Dryads. They aren't particularly killy, they will die quickly if attacked first and their kit is way too expensive to use lots of them. They are for board control:
***Charge blockers. Save until your opponent gets ready to charge a very killy unit they want to get into combat asap, then teleport a wall of Revenants in front. Revenants will die instantly in the following combat, but it'll free up your more important units.
***Back line threatening. Your opponent can no longer keep those war machines, Jezzails and Poisoned Wind Mortars unguarded. Minimum-size squads of them also have just high enough of a damage output to cut all the aforementioned units to ribbons. But, you will say, the 9" charge after teleporting is improbable. No. Since they can reroll one of the charge dice, they are more likely to make that charge than to fail it. A good rule of thumb is to use 2 units of minimum size. That way, it's very likely at least one of them will make the charge and then they will more than likely deal enough damage to neuter the war machine you attacked.
***Objective taking. Without any Revenants, your opponent might decide to leave a captured objective unguarded. With Revenants either you can teleport and grab the objective or they'll be wise to this and need to keep a unit tied up - one big enough to survive a teleport and charge strike.
**''2019 Differences: Teleporting is now anywhere instead of near a wood or table edge. It's a small change, but a good one.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spite_Revenants_ENG.pdf Spite-Revenants]:''' (60/200pts, min 5, max 20) Less tricksy, more creepy Tree-Revenants.
**No rend and single damage, but 3 attacks at +3/+3 each!
**They also exist to muck around with enemy Bravery. They flat reduce the Bravery of enemies around them, which combos well with Drycha's unique spell. Plus they force them to reroll passed battleshock tests. Even Death armies can end up with some battleshock losses.
**1" range means it'll be tricky getting all 61 attacks of a 20 model unit fully into combat.
**Your glass cannon battleline: Hits really hard, dies really quickly. Use Dryads for staying power.
**200 points for 20 of these is the same as Dryads! Against bad save hordes these guys might be the superior option. Sadly, it'll hurt your wallet a lot more - £90 for 20 vs £31.25 for the same in Dryads (add in your own local currency multiplier).
**''2019 Differences: 10 points drop, the scenery rule is switched for the rerolling battleshock, and attacks are up from +4/+4 to +3/+3, that's a huge boost! Finally these are a valid battleline option. GW must really want people to start playing these guys.''

==={{color|#dda16f|Other Troops}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Greatswords_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Greatswords]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12) The ultimate wooden killing machine.
**Incredible. Each of these guys is basically a minor Hero at 5 Wounds and a 4+ Save.
**The sword tosses out 4 attacks at -1 Rend and damage 2. And deals an additional mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6.
**When melee attacking, if they don't need to move (other than 1" pile in), they can gain the ability to re-roll saves.
***Since the warscroll only says at the start of the charge phase but doesn't specify whose, they can technically charge and pile in normally in your charge phase and then use Tanglethorn Thicket in your opponent's if you went first.
**At the end of combat you deal mortal wounds on a 4+ for each model in your unit
**They also channel Command Abilities. When you use a Command ability, any unit wholly within 12" of a Kunroth is also counted as being in range of the casting hero.
**GW has switched the points for these up and down over the years. Down again slightly for 2020
**Consider pretending you're playing 40K and magnetise the arms for different weapon loadouts below. If you fix the weapons on one unit then you'll have enough shoulder pads spare to better magnetise a second unit. The Quiverbugs are trickier to magnetise. Sadly there are no official rules for using plasma cannons.
**These guys are crazy good now, especially if you take them in Winterleaf. Stick an Arch-Revenant next to a unit, send into something big, and watch it go **POOF**. Pop command ability for 10 attacks hitting on 3+, 5 attacks on 2+, reroll 1's to hit, with 6's causing mortal wounds AND extra attacks?! All wounding on 3's with their -1 rend and flat 2 damage (Bonus points for using the Frozen Kernel so they can do it again. Even Nagash will tremble in terror.)
**''2019 Differences: Other than the warscroll split, failed saves confusion has been fixed, some range changes, improvement to the end of combat damage. Plus swords get an extra mortal. Even stronger than before. With the mortal wounds buff, better than scythes against everything, though with 1" less range.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Scythes_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Scythes]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12)
**Same as above, but with longer weapon range of the scythes, which tosses out 3 attacks at Rend -2 and damage D3. The scythes do more damage against 2+ saves, break even against 3+ and the swords win against everything else. But that's before taking into account the mortal wounds on 6 the Swords deal out (which the scythes don't get).
**In general the swords are your better option (especially given how rare 2+ and even 3+ saves are in AoS).
**However, the scythes have 2" reach. You'll want this for units of 6 or more to get them all into combat or if you want to place a screen of Dryads (preferably on the edge of a woods) or Revenants in front and attack through them. Tricksier players will go for the scythes.
**''2019 Differences: Same as the swords variant, except for no new additional weapon damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Greatbows_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Greatbows]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12)
**Same as above, but now with ranged weapons.
**A stunning 30" range, two shots per model and D3 damage per shot, these guys are basically artillery.
**You also get the adorable Quiverlings who do the melee fighting for them, being very non-threatening, but remember, these guys are tough as nails and you can shoot into melee. Does a lot less damage overall than melee weapons, and you can only shoot during your turn (unlike melee, effectively halving the potential damage done per game), but that range means you won't be getting attacked back. How dare they! The Quiverlings are no longer the source of their melee damage! Somehow, the giant tree people have learned to punch things of their own accord now
**Take into account our woods block line of sight (so no camping in woods) and Look Out Sir means you should probably avoid sniping guarded heroes.
**Bows were the best option in original AOS, no longer so essential in AOS2.
**''2019 Differences: Same as the swords variant, except for no new additional weapon damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/aos-warscroll-yltharis-guardians-en.pdf Ylthari’s Guardians]:''' (Free with Ylthari) Shadespire Tree Revenants without the good stuff.
**Can only be taken along with Ylthari.
**Tree Revenants without a musician or banner, so you loose the pile in and teleport abilities.
**In return you get three different weapon profiles (sword, glaive, bow), which are upgrades on the Tree Revenants.
**Plus on a D6 3+ you get to attack first, which is going to make them a lot less fragile than standard Tree Revenants.
**You also lose the Tree Revs reroll any dice per phase, but you can reroll wounds of 1.
**Labelled {{AOSKeyword|tree revenant}}, but Ylthari isn't. As written means you can include them in Tree Revenant battalion requirements, even though you still have to bring along Ylthari who wouldn't then be in the battalion. Needs an FAQ to confirm.
**Rules as Written their Martial Memories ability will cause themselves and ANY other Tree-Revenant unit within 3" of enemy units to fight first, on a 3+, in the combat phase. This needs playtesting to see if it's worth the points, but in theory it sounds almost too good to be true. You'd bring Ylthari's Guardians to turn your decent Tree-Revenants into better than Dryad melee blenders. Yeah, that's gone as of the battletome. Now Martial Memories is the same as the ability on the Tree-Revenants.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos_skaeths_wild_hunt_en.pdf Skaeth’s Wild Hunt]:''' (120pts, min/max 5) Straight outa Beatsgrave
**5 unique models with ok melee (max damage of six wounds with all models) and a little bit of shooting (a single close range and single far range attack)
**One wound each, but the leader gets one extra. And the one of them is a Wizard.
**Might be easier to just think of these guys as a 120pt six wound wizard with a behemoth damage table. Remember, each model killed results in fewer attacks/abilities. Just make sure you remove the models you most care about last.
**Spell (CV 7), as long as the model lives, gives you +1 to wounds rolls on a nearby unit, which is neat. Especially given that's something not covered elsewhere in the faction. Sadly it's a fairly high casting value.
**They can still charge and shoot after running, not that you'll be charging them much.
**Unique and not a hero.
**Really, the +1 wounds spell to work alongside your other buffs is the reason you'll be taking these guys. In an either/or choice, the Arch Revenant is 20pts cheaper and better, and the wych/wraiths are 50% cheaper if you just want a wizard.
**Like Ylthari, labelled Oakenbow, which as per FAQ, means that if you take another glade, these guys do not benefit from the glade bonus. Which makes them now even more useless than before.

===Behemoths===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Treelord_ENG.pdf Treelord]:''' (180pts) ''The'' Walking Tree. (aka Groot)
**[[DISTRACTION CARNIFEX]] with appropriate stats to match.
**At the start of combat he can stomp and on a 4+ cause one enemy unit to fight at the end of combat.
**You get a single attack at rend -2, and on a 6 it goes from 1 damage to D6 mortal wounds.
**Instead of moving, if close to a wood, he can teleport to another wood, more than 9" from enemies. This is in addition to the single unit that can do the same using the allegiance ability. Deep Strike!
**And they can also shoot, which is decent, not much worse than a unit of Bow Kurnoths.
**It should be remembered that these guys class as monsters and carry all the baggage that comes with that (You know declining stats, Large model, everyone wants to shoot it. that sort of thing), its still a pretty kickass unit.
**Everything this guy can do, Durthu and the Ancient can do, and more. But you're paying appropriately for them.
**This guy rarely sees usage. He's not a bad choice, it's just Kurnoth's, at only 20 points more, are a better choice. And if you really want him, the Ancient and Durthu give you more.
**''2019 Differences: Stomp has changed from causing -1 to hits against, impale has been simplified. And down from 240 points!''

===Scenery===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Awakened_Wyldwood_ENG.pdf Awakened Wyldwood]:''' Trees everywhere.
**New models!
**An Awakened Wyldwood consists of 3-6 citadel woods arranged to form a circle. Everything inside is treated as woods.
**A Citadel wood is a single tree with a bit of base. They come in packs of three, which when formed into a circle are roughly the same size as the old dinner plate model.
**FAQ states you can use one old citadel wood model as one awakened wood terrain piece. Given that one old wood is roughly the same size of 3 new woods, you're at a disadvantage using them.
**Line of sight blockers, so no camping your shooters in woods.
**If a wizard casts a spell near a wood, then all nearby non-Sylvaneth get D3 mortals on a 5+.
**At the end of the charge phase, all nearby non-Sylvaneth get D3 mortals on a 6.
**Remember those damages hurt your allies and your ally in doubles games.
**All Treelords and one other unit per turn can teleport between two of these instead of moving.
**Branchwraiths, Branchwyches, Dryads and Durthu all gain bonuses for being near a wood.
**As per the allegiance ability, you can place one of these at the start of the game. The Acorn artefact and the Treelord Ancient can both unconditionally place one wood per game. The verdant blessing spell (6+) is known by all our wizards and can place a new wood per turn if successfully cast. Alarielle can set up a new wood after killing a unit with her spell (if there is room).
**Your first wood needs to be more than 6" from an objective, but none of the other wood placements have that restriction.
**Your opponent is going to want to place lots of scenery during setup and then spread out during the first turn in order to block our wood placements. A situation made worse by the increase in faction specific scenery. You could quite easily end up only get out the start wood and one more during an entire game. Getting first turn can help mitigate this.
**The new models will mean an end to tree-less bases, and they'll fit in your army storage box. However, it's yet to be seen how many of these you're going to need to bring along per game and whether they are as crucial as they were in previous additions. You could end up bringing along 8 packs of these, which still ends up being a significant upfront cost for the army and it's still a lot of extra plastic you're carting around between games.
**Note that the entire inside of the ring of woods is counted as part of the Awakened Wyldwood, which means you can't use a wildwood to surround another piece of scenery or objective.
**''2019 Differences: New models! No longer auto kills small guys after charge/runs, instead doing damage by just being close. Max footprint of a wood has shrunk by a third.''

==Battalions==

===Forest Folk===
'''''A Branchwraith and three units of Dryads''''' ''140pts (520pts min -> 1,030pts max)''

Units can retreat and then still charge that turn.

Great for controlling the flow of combat. Essentially the opposite of Household. Stops your tar pits getting locked into combat with something you didn't want to, usually due to them charging first. Alternatively, if done correctly, you can bypass combat screens - charge into the screen one turn, then the following turn, retreat further up the board and charge your real target. Ignore the Branchwraith here, she's just included to reduce the number of drops.

''2019 Differences: Replaces the old ability that lets you take the entire Battalion off the table and then redeploy them close to your Wyldwoods.''

===Free Spirits===

'''''A Spirit of Durthu and three units of Kurnoth Hunters''''' ''140pts (1,080pts min -> 2,880pts max)''

Always rolls a 6 for a run.

Nice. Running instead of charging allows you to tanglethorn for save rerolls when the enemy charges in the following turn. You'll be wanting Scythes because you'll need the range on your tiny pile in. Don't use it to try and deepstrike Durthu or the like if board placement has denied you getting out any woods, as you'll now have lone units who can no longer shoot or charge until the next turn vulnerable to counterattack.

If you are taking these units, then you probably are also want the cheapest battleline you can get hold of, which is 3x5 Spites - and if you're doing ''that'', then Outcasts is 40 points cheaper. Anyone wanting three artefacts, then this and Outcasts together would work.

''2019 Differences: Much simpler than the old ability where you move twice but has to be closer to some scenery''

===Household===

'''''A vanilla Treelord, a Branchwych and a unit of Tree-Revenants''''' ''100pts (440pts min -> 780pts max)''

Units locked in combat with the Household cannot retreat.

That's an amazing ability for controlling the board, sadly the unit choices aren't the best. However, consider a blob of 30 freely teleporting Tree Revenants with 6" pile ins (and a 60pt hoard discount) and you're going to lock down whatever threats ''you'' want to for multiple turns until they chew through or die. Use the woods to throw your Treelord followed by Branchwych bomb to lock down a different unit elsewhere. Now consider how much six boxes of Revenants is going to cost to do this. Yeah.

''2019 Differences: The old version also had +1 Bravery, but that's gone now.''

===Lords of the Clan===

'''''Two to four Treelord Ancients and one to three normal Treelords''''' ''60pts (760pts min -> 1640 max)''

During your shooting phase, every enemy within 6" of 2+ Treelords, gets D3 mortals on a 2+ roll.

At 60 points, this is a bargain given it's only 10 more than a command point, and If you really want lots of trees then this is a no brainer. Ability requires you teleport deep strike in pairs, but you won't get those mortals until ''your'' next turn after charging (assuming the whole pair stays alive). Having to take two Ancients is the tax here - most the Ancient's abilities don't double up, leaving your second Ancient mostly as a Treelord with a much lower damage output (however, you do get the additional spell plus the choice of which Ancient to use for its abilities).
Being forced to take in pairs is a good as the stomp becomes much more reliable (from 50% to 75%), with the chance you can stomp a second enemy.
For the most use out of this you want two pairs of Ancient+Vanilla, but that uses up almost half your points and all your behemoths slots in a 2000pt game. Two Ancients and one Vanilla is easier to build around, but that magnifies the Ancient tax and neuters the battalion ability.
For pure damage output and survivability, Dreadwooding a large block of Kurnoth's is mathematically the better choice. However, two pairs of stomping Trees are much more flexible.
In addition, taking LOTC enables you to take a mixed battleline (say, one each of Spites, TreeRevs and Dryads) instead of the usual block of Outcasts or Forest Folk - or take both if you really want the artefacts/CPs.

''2019 Differences: Old ability was only for one name Treelord, was a wider range, but less reliable.''

===Outcasts===

'''''Three units of Spite-Revenants''''' ''100pts (280pts min -> 700pts max)''

Any enemy unit that fails battleshock within (not wholly within!) 3" loses an additional D3 models.

Remember that Spites lower enemy bravery too.
If you want the cheapest possible battleline plus battalion, then this is the choice to take, for just 280pts total - just don't expect them to last long.

''2019 Differences: This used to be a damage pulse based on enemy bravery.''

===Wargrove===

'''''One Lords of the Clan, three Households, three Forest Folks, one Free Spirits and one Outcasts.''''' ''80pts (5,240pts min -> 11,010pts max)''

Our only remaining super battalion. Allows you to place '''two''' Wyldwoods at the start of the game instead of one. Still, way too big to use unless you're playing 6000 point games.

''2019 Differences: Unchanged from the old battletome.''

==Army Building==

===1000 pts===

Two SC boxes and a box of Revenants get you a solid core. Convert one of the <del>useless</del> Branchwyches into a Branchwraith by stealing her scythe and pet. You will want more Dryads if you do this so the Wraith actually gets to do her job.

* Grove: Winterleaf
* Treelord Ancient (General, Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* Branchwych (The Dwellers Below)
* 30 Dryads
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* Treelord

Total: 990 pts

You can also replace the Treelord with a unit of Kurnoth Hunters (give them the Greatswords).

To upgrade from that, get a bag of newly-undercosted Spite Revenants and a guaranteed second Wood:

* Grove: Winterleaf or Dreadwood
* Treelord Ancient (General, Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Drycha Hamadreth (Deadly Harvest or The Dwellers Below)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* 20 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Tree-Revenants
* Soulsnare Shackles

Total: 1000 pts

If you got the Looncurse set (or if you prefer), you can also do this:

* Grove: Winterleaf
* Treelord Ancient (Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Arch-Revenant (General)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 6 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatswords)

The Arch-Revenant can stay safe and buff the Hunters with her Command Ability thanks to Envoys of the Everqueen.

Alternatively, you can be a dick and bring a god to the table:

* Grove: Winterleaf or Dreadwood
* Alarielle (Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (General, Grove artefact, Throne of Vines)
* 20 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants

Total: 1000 pts

Can cut most of the Spite-Revenants for... something? Allied 3 Ishlaen guard? A Knight-Incantor? Open for suggestions, but if you do that, consider going groveless.

===2000 pts===

====Winterleaf starter List====
Two Wraiths (+spell reliability), Drycha (+regrowth), Hive, and blobs of Kurnoths with Arch Rev are a solid base for ''any'' list.
Winterleaf is a good pick as being very strong and the easiest-to-play grove.

If you played Sylvaneth before the recent changes, chances are you have a <del>forest</del> fair number of Dryads, Forest Folk puts them to good use:
* Grove: Winterleaf
* Battalion: Forest Folk
* Arch-Revenant (General, grove artefact)
* Drycha Hamadreth (Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (Spiritsong Stave, Throne of Vines)
* Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony)
* 30 Dryads
* 20 Dryads
* 10 Dryads
* 9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
* Spiteswarm Hive
*''Total: 1990 pts''

If you prefer less battleline (you'll most likely be getting +30-40 Dryads per game), then Outcasts gets you the cheapest battleline plus artefact. Simply swap Dryads and Forest Folk for:
* Battalion: Outcasts
* 5 Spite Revenants
* 5 Spite Revenants
* 5 Spite Revenants

This now leaves you with 440 points to play with. Possibilities include:
*6 Kurnoths and Skullroot spell?
*Durthu and 10 Dryads? And maybe switch to Harvestboon.
*3 Kurnoths, 5 Tree Revenants, +5 Spite Revenants to an existing block, and 10 Dryads?

====Dreadwood Teleportation====
Dreadwood lets you dodge a lot of mobility concerns that can occur with the new terrain rules - combined with up to +5 to charges and Envoys of the Everqueen, Kurnoth can deliver a punch wherever you want it.

* Grove: Dreadwood
* Battalion: Outcasts
* Arch-Revenant (General, grove artefact)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony)
* 30 Dryads
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
* 6 Kurnoth Hunters (Swords)
* Chronomatic Cogs
* Spiteswarm Hive
* Extra Command Point

Total: 1990 pts

==Allied Armies==

The problem with allies, is that they do not get the {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}}-Keyword. Our Forests can and will turn on our allies if they get too close. This massively reduces their mobility, weakens our board control and potentially makes us lose our models without the enemy having to do anything.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Stormcast Eternals|Stormcast Eternals]]:''' You don't particularly need stormcast. Their play style is too different from traditional Sylvaneth play and overall they don't synergise too well. Perhaps with the upcoming Stormcast Sacrosanct chamber, something might be available to use well with Sylvaneth, but as of now don't bother. Stormcasts are just too slow to keep up with us and allies can't make up for this with Deep Strikes. Prosecutors might be a better option than the infantry on foot, but the would-be woefully under supported, due to the lack of Stormcast Heroes. Additionally, they have worse shooting than our (costlier) options and again, do not benefit from Stormcast specific abilities or commands.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Wanderers|Wanderers]]:''' Okayish, and fluffy which is important, however as previously mentioned above, you only have 200/400pts to spare, which simply isn't enough to gain any meaningful army support from the Wanderers - ''although with the recent warscroll and point changes in the Cities of Sigmar release, maybe there is something to look at here.'' Wanderers suffer from much the same problems as Stormcast. Everything they can do, we can do better, with everything they need, we can't provide. 200-400 points are not all that much and spending these on a Unit of Glade Guard and a Hero gives us, again, worse shooting and we can only heal and not revive Models. This basically means that the many single-wound models are nearly worthless fodder. Sisters of any variation are simply too expensive to be a viable choice for us and don't benefit us. Wasted points, that we could use better for Hunters.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Idoneth Deepkin|Idoneth Deepkin]]:''' The fish guys have lots of cross-unit synergies, which are of no use here. Consider the Akhelian Guards (Ishlaen and Morrsarr). Compared to the Kurnoths, they are faster at 14' and can fly (but can't use wyldwood teleporting and need to stay way from them too), they pack more punch (but are much more fragile) and they are cheaper too.
**Alternately, consider running a Deepkin army with the "Alliance of Wood and Sea" Battalion, giving you all the benefits of the Deepkin tides at the cost of having only one forest (for better and worse) via the Treelord Ancient's Silent Communion ability.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Dispossessed|Dispossessed]]:''' (Only if general is {{AOSKeyword|IRONBARK}})

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Fyreslayers|Fyreslayers]]:''' (Only if general is {{AOSKeyword|IRONBARK}}): Surprisingly useful alliance despite not being common in the lore. The Fyreslayers bring a lot of Mortal Wounds to the table, especially if a Runefather or Runeson on Magmadroth is chosen. With Hearthguard Berserkers, bring a Fyerslayer hero along with them and they can eat Mortal Wounds for you, being able to resist them on a 4+.

==Buying Guide==

Sylvaneth is mixed in terms of unit price values. Some can be cheap, others horrendously expensive, but that's GW. A cliché recommendation would be the start collecting box. Sadly the Branchwych is of less use than she used to be.

Note that due to models coming from WFB, a box of Dryads has 16 models, so to get full use of them, you'll want two boxes giving you 3 dryad units plus 2 spare. Make these up as 3 Dryad Nymphs and 29 normal Dryads to give you full WYSIWYG flexibility of unit sizes. 5 boxes gets you a full usage with 80, which is probably enough unless you go full Dryad spam.

{{Age_of_Sigmar_Tactics}}

Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Sylvaneth

2020-10-10T00:43:44Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204:

{{Age of Sigmar Faction|Faction=Sylvaneth|Logo=Most Friendly Being In Sylvaneth.jpg|Alliance=Order|Motto=WALKING TREES I TELL YOU! WALKING TREES!}}

Welcome to the Everqueen's glorious wooden host! Fleet of foot we spring from our forests, reaping our foes' lives with Mortal Wounds, before vanishing back into the woods, leaving those still alive confused and broken. When it comes to hit and run, keeping multi-wound models alive and literally shaping the battlefield to our needs, none compare. For we live between the Elite Armies of the Slaves to Darkness and the Ironjawz and Nighthaunt, our glades and copses are filled with singing dryads and solemn Kurnoth Hunters, ever watchful of the outsides and our enemies. For the Deepwood stirs...

==Why play Sylvaneth?==
* You like trees, nature and/or gardening.
* You like being able to teleport around the battlefield.
* You watched the Marvel films and are a big fan of Groot.
* Your favorite scenes in the Lord of the Rings is the Ents attack on Isengard or the Huron wiping out an Orc army, or Treebeard is your favorite character. (not that I blame you)
* Your a painter who loves varieties of colors.
* You like armies that straddle the line between elite and horde.

====Pros====
*New battletome for 2019 that replaces the four fixed one-drop army lists with a whole host of choices.
*We have a lot of new and glorious models, almost completely in plastic (just one finecast, which you ''will'' be needing... and even then you can kitbash one up from plastic models).
*Easily paintable chaff with Dryads. Which is useful as you'll be painting a lot of them.
*Almost everything we have is at least -1 Rend.
*We get around quickly. One of our Battleline moves 7". Other stuff can teleport. If you like mobility and board control, we are one of the best choices to date.
*Just look at Alarielle model. Her buffs and damage output are almost as awesome as she looks.
*Massive Board Control if you can get those woods out.
*Kurnoth Hunters. Even by heavy infantry standard in AoS, absolute damage monsters. They will do a lot of heavy lifting.
*Great, often colourful paint schemes. Whether you want your trees to be in full bloom, fiery autumn or paint them as a haunted ghastly forest, you have a lot of choices.
*Lorewise, we boast one of the leaders of an entire realm and two survivors from the World-That-Was (three if you count the Spirits of Durthu).
*I am Groot.

====Cons====
*We are very bad to transport. Seriously it's a pain with all these small bits and twigs. Even foam packaged boxes hurt us. You'll want magnets and a big metal box.
*Limited defense against Mortal Wounds - just a single artefact on 5+ and a glade Command Ability on 6+.
*Those Citadel Woods have been replaced with newer models, but you're still going to be requiring a few sets of them, which is still going to be a significant investment and still be a pain to transport. Just not quite as bad as before.
*A reputation for being no fun to play against due to overly defensive turtling. That should be mitigated now, but opinions die hard.
*Spite Revenant hordes are super expensive in terms of cash.
*Current terrain and terrain placement rules make it more difficult to add wildwoods to the table, hindering mobility and tactical planning.
*I am Groot.

==Rulebooks==
{{AOSRulebooks|tome=Sylvaneth (2019)|points=[https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/40ad8aeb.pdf Sylvaneth Errata]}}

==Allegiance Abilities==

===Battle Traits===
Armies with the {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} allegiance have the following abilities:

*'''Awakened Wyldwoods''': After territories have been determined but before armies are set up, set up ONE Awakened Wyldwood anywhere on the battlefield more than 1" from any other terrain feature, 1" from enemy territory, and more than 6" from any objectives. Soon in this article you will see why you can't really play Sylvaneth without them. ''2019 Differences: Distance changes.''

*'''Forest Spirits''': You can set up a {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit aside for every unit deployed on the field. In any of your movement phases, you can deploy it on the battlefield. Units must be set up wholly within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood and more than 9" from any enemy models. This is their move for that movement phase. Sylvaneth deep strike. Exploit it with Spirits of Durthu, melee Kurnoth Hunters, and their shared battalion, Free Spirits. [[Rocks fall, everyone dies|Trunks fall, everyone dies]]. ''2019 Differences: Distance changes.''

*'''Navigate Realmroots''': Instead of moving in the movement phase, ONE {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit wholly within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood can be moved to wholly within 6" of another, different, wood, and of course more than 9" from any enemy. Treelord varieties have the Spirit Walk Ability and can teleport in addition to this one unit. ''2019 Differences: This used to be usable for multiple units a turn and the rolling after has gone. Definite nerf, but also simpler to use.''

*'''Places of Power''': After territories are chosen but before armies are deployed, select one terrain feature (this could be an Awakened Wyldwood YOU deploy according to order of operations... might need an FAQ). Friendly Sylvaneth units wholly within 6" of said terrain feature do not take battleshock tests. Interesting buff, it lets you sort of pick a focal point of where you want to commit to battle, and then have your, say, 30 block of dryads get to ignore battleshock while holding up the enemy.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Command Traits}}===
A general of an army with a {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} allegiance can choose one Command Trait from the lists below (be advised that if you choose your army to be one of the Wargroves, you are forced to take a specific command trait instead of one of these):

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Aspects Of War}}'''
#'''Dread Harvester''': If you charged, you can reroll melee hit rolls.
#'''Gnarled Warrior''': Reroll saves of 1. ''This used to be ignore rend unless it's -2 or better.''
#'''Gift of Ghyran''': Your general heals 1 wound at the start of each of your hero phases. ''This used to bump to D3 if near a wood.''
#'''Lord of Spites''': Reroll all wound rolls of 1. ''This used to be reroll first failed hit roll. So, that's better now.''
#'''Warsinger''': +2 to any charge rolls made for friendly {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units that are wholly within 12" of your general. Good choice for turning a spirit path walk into a charge on the same turn; essential for any alpha strike lists. ''Used to be +1 and within 10" (but not wholly).''
#'''Wisdom of the Ancients''': All friendly {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units wholly within 12" of your general in the battleshock phase add 1 to their Bravery. Best near revenants, your most vulnerable to battleshock. ''Used to be within 10" (but not wholly).''

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Aspects Of Renewal}}'''

{{AOSKeyword|Wizards}} only
#'''Arcane Bounty''': General knows 1 extra Deepwood spell.
#'''Mystic Regrowth''': If General successfully cast a spell, then heal D3 wounds at end of hero phase.
#'''Voice Of Warding''': General can unbind one extra spell per turn.
#'''Glade Lore''': General gets +1 to casting rolls when wholly within 6" of a wood.
#'''Spellsinger''': General gets +6 range of all spells. Consider using the balewind vortex to double this. ''2019 changes: This used to be the silverwood circlet.''
#'''Radiant Spirit''': If affected by a spell/endless spell, roll a dice, on a 4+ ignore the effect. Note the correct usage of affect and effect.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Artefacts}}===

One {{AOSKeyword|hero}} in an army with a {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance and has chosen to take the {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance abilities, plus one {{AOSKeyword|hero}} for every battalion selected, can choose one Artefact from the lists below.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Weapons Of The Glades}}'''

These affect a single melee weapon belonging to the bearer
#'''Daith's Reaper''': Additional rend of 1. ''Used to be on 6 get -4 rend. Much more useful now.''
#'''Greenwood Gladius''': If the bearer charges, +2 attacks that turn.
#'''Autumns Ire''': Re-roll hits and wounds of 1 as long as the bearer is wounded.
#'''Winnowstaff''': Can re-roll all hits against enemies with Wounds of 1.
#'''Ancient Barkblade''': +1 damage.
#'''The Darkest Bough''': On an unmodified wound roll of 6, deals an additional D3 mortal wounds

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Boons Of The Everqueen}}'''
#'''The Oaken Armour''': Reroll saves of 1. ''Used to be +1 to save rolls.''
#'''Briarsheath''': -1 Hit penalty for anyone attacking the bearer.
#'''Glamourweave''': 5+ save-after-the-save (mortal wounds only). Great for a Spirit of Durthu tanking Wounds because he can use that to protect himself, and also the only thing in the army that ignores mortal wounds. ''Used to be only 6+.''
#'''Lashvines''': For every non-negated wound from a melee weapon, on a 6 from a D6, the attacker takes 1 mortal wound.
#'''Silken Snares''': Ignore rend of -1 from enemies.
#'''Nightbloom Garland''': Unit is invisible to enemy units more than 12" away.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Verdant Treasures}}'''

#'''Seed of Rebirth''': The first time you lose your last wound roll a D6. On 2+ they come back to life with D3 wounds. Obviously best for a Branchwych/wraith, as a monster with D3 Wounds might as well be dead again. Especially useful on a Branchwych, as if she dies and comes back, she still counts as having taken wounds for the purposes of her bonus. ''Used to not require the dice roll.''
#'''Wraithstone''': Subtract 1 from the Bravery of enemy units within 10" in the Battleshock Phase. Combine with Spite-Revenants for best results.
#'''Everdew Vial''': +2 to run and charge rolls.
#'''Lifewreath''': Roll a dice in hero phase, on 3+ all {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} units wholly within 10" heal +D3 wounds.
#'''Crown Of Fell Bowers''': Pick an enemy within 6" at the start of the combat phase. All friendly {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} can re-roll all wound rolls against them for that phase.
#'''Etherblossom''': Bearer can fly. Durthu will love this.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Relics Of Nature}}'''

{{AOSKeyword|Wizards}} only.
#'''Acorn of the Ages''': Set up a Wyldwood wholly within 12", one-use only. The old favourite artefact of the one drop armies. You can simply throw a forest-shaped wrench into enemy charge lanes, you can let an isolated Hero summon their own reinforcement spawn point, you can make some cover to make a stand. ''This used to be within 5" (not wholly).''
#'''Spiritsong Stave''': Additional spell cast per turn. Amazing!
#'''The Vesperal Gem''': Once per turn, automatically succeed a Deepwood spell roll, which cannot be unbound. Sounds great.... but, then roll a dice, on a 1 you get D3 mortals. Ouchy. Good thing you have healing out the ass. Amazing relic because while you NEED magic, you don't have a lot of multi spell casters OR casting bonuses. Very solid choice. Note, Verdant Blessing is not part of Deepwood, so no autotree spamming.
#'''Luneth's Lamp''': +2 unbinding/dispelling rolls for endless spells.
#'''Hagbane Spite''': If you successfully unbind a spell, the caster gets 1 mortal.
#'''Wychwood Glaive''': Pick a melee weapon, it gets +2 damage against wizards.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Spell Lore}}===

All {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} {{AOSKeyword|wizard}}s know Verdant Blessing, plus they can take a spell from the Deepwood Spell Lore.

'''Verdant Blessing''' (6+): Casting value 6. Sets up an Awakened Wyldwood wholly within 24". As useful as the Wyldwoods are to you, this spell is pretty good. ''This used to be 18", part of the Deepwood list, and was more or less auto include''.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Deepwood Spell Lore}}'''

Every '''WIZARD''' in an army with a {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance and has chosen to take the {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance abilities can choose one of the following Spells:
#'''Throne of Vines''' (5+): Caster gets +2 to cast, but only as long as you don't move. <s>Amazing</s> MUST TAKE for Allarielle and her three casts per turn, which allows her to summon woods on a 4+ and buff her Metamorphosis! Also a must take on a Branchwraith with stave to help her get the Dryads out more consistently. Note that RAW, this effect stacks! Take on a non moving multi caster and by mid game you won't be able to fail a cast and there will be no way to unbind you. ''This used to be +D3 to cast and unbind.''
#'''Regrowth''' (5+): Casting value 5. Heal D6 Wounds to a friendly, visible {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} unit wholly within 18". TAKE IT. I don't care about your strategy, take it. Alarielle? Take it. Treelord Ancient? Take it. Drycha? Take it unless you want a suicide bomb. ''Used to also heal D3 on non-sylvaneth.''
#'''The Dwellers Below''' (7+): Pick a unit within 10", roll a D6 for every model in the unit, every 6 deals a Mortal Wound. Basically Vermintide/New Treason of Tzeentch. It's good, with a potentially gigantic damage output, but unless used against units of 20+, Arcane Bolt will probably do more.
#'''Deadly Harvest''' (6+): Each enemy unit within 3" gets D3 mortals. Nice when you're stuck in melee, but only really good in combination with the Spellsinger command trait. Also, remember that it gets better against multiple small units, but worse against horde armies - essentially the opposite of Dwellers below. ''This used to be call The Reaping.''
#'''Verdurous Harmony''' (7+): A unit wholly within 18" regains 1 slain model (or D3 for Dryads, Tree/Spite Revs). Amazing spell, just can be a little tricky to consistently cast without bonuses. 'New spell! Is a variant of an old wargrove spell.''
#'''Treesong''' (7+): For one enemy unit within 16" and 6" of a wood, you get to re-roll melee hit and wound rolls of 1 against them. What? Very situational and high casting value. Avoid. ''Completely rewritten, used to move a wood 2D6.''

==={{color|#01bbe3|Endless Spells}}===

Note that unlike the some of the [[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Malign Sorcery|generic]] endless spells, the Sylvaneth spells can't be used by your opponent against you (other than moving them out of harms way).

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Gladewyrm_ENG.pdf Gladewyrm]''' (30pts, CV 7, predatory 8"): Ancient protectors of the <s>[[Dune|spice]]</s> realmroots.
**Does D3 mortal wounds to non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units within 1" and heals D3 wounds to {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units wholly within 6" of where it ends up.
**Pretty good for the cost. For best effect, lob it in the middle of any combat not involving your battleline.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Vengeful_Skullroot_ENG.pdf Vengeful Skullroot]''' (40pts, CV 6, predatory 8"): Spooky tree
**Adds D3 to fleeing non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} models that fail battleshock tests within 3".
**Also does D3 mortal wounds to non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units it passes across, boosted to D6 if said units are within 3" of an {{AOSKeyword|AWAKENED WYLDWOOD}}.
**If you can get that D6 off, then this is great. Given the myriad ways of avoiding battleshock, and that enemies avoid woods where possible, you might find better use out of the slightly cheaper Gladewyrm.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spiteswarm_Hive_ENG.pdf Spiteswarm Hive]''' (50pts, CV 7): More of Drycha's little gribbles.
**Lets ''you'' (and only you) choose one of the following effects in ''every'' hero phase (including your opponents) each turn it's around: Roll a dice for each {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit wholly within 8", on a 2+ ''either'' add 3" to normal moves and charge moves ''or'' roll re-roll saves of 1.
**Great spell, however be careful when using the move bonus that your models don't get out of range too quickly.
**Best case is to place it halfway between you and an enemy, use the move bonus to get into combat, then use the save bonus during your opponents turn (assuming you survive the first round of combat).
**The small base size helps to stop it getting in the way of movement, assuming you point the gribbles out of the way.

==Glades==
Every Sylvaneth army gets to optionally belong to a glade ''for free'', which gives you an extra ability, command ability, fixes your General's command trait (you cannot choose from the Allegiance Abilities lists) and fixes your first artefact.

The Core FAQ clarifies that if you take Alarielle/Drycha as your general and a Glade, you don't get the Glade's Command Trait.

''2019 Differences: These are named after the Wargroves from the old Battletome, but they're very different. Instead of being battalions, which restrict what units you take, they force you into a set of abilities/artefacts.''

===Dreadwood===

*''Ability'': '''Malicious Tormentors''': Spite Revs reroll hits of 1.
*''Command Ability'': '''Sinister Ambush''': Once per turn, take a unit within 18" of a Hero and replace them anywhere on the battlefield, >9" of enemy units.
*''Command Trait'': '''Paragon Of Terror''': Enemy units reroll successful battleshock tests when within 6" of your general.
*''Artefact'': '''Jewel Of Withering''': -1 to melee wound rolls attacking the bearer.

The spooky choice. Gives a reason to use lots of Spite-Revenants. The battleshock reroll jells nicely with the Spite's -1 bravery buff, and hit rerolls on top of their 3+ to hit should make them terrifying. The teleporting is only good for deep striking a single unit, but combine with wyldwood teleporting and you can also throw over a bunch of Treelords and a big unit of Dryads at the same time.

===Gnarlroot===

*''Ability'': '''Shield The Arcane''': Units reroll hits of 1 when within 12" of friendly Gnarlroot Wizards.
*''Command Ability'': '''The Earth Defends''': One unit within 12" of a hero negates wounds or mortal wounds on 6+ for that combat phase.
*''Command Trait'': '''Nurtured By Magic''': Once per turn, if your general successfully casts a spell, a unit wholly within 18" heals D3 wounds.
*''Artefact'': '''Chalice Of Nectar''': Roll 3 dice when casting or unbinding and discard one of your choice.

The magicy life choice.
*The ability to reroll 1s (for free) overlaps with the Arch-Revenant, so reasonable chance you already have that covered. But might be an excuse to drop Archie, freeing up 100 sweet points, or use both to further extend across your army (remember, Archie isn't a wizard).
*Command ability is best left for emergency damage limitation on a crucial unit that somehow got into melee, unless you're really good at rolling sixes and have lots of spare CPs.
*The Chalice, which means the bearer well may never fail a cast, sounds awesome at first glance, but it won't make you into a top-tier spellcaster. Your best wizard, Alarielle can't take artefacts (neither can Drycha), so that leaves a you with a Wraith, Wych or Ancient. With your artefact slot taken, the only way to boost your number of casts is to use the the Balewind Vortex on the edge of a wood with the Wraith or Wych, essentially giving you a branchwych bomb (see Branchwych section) or supercharging your Dryad summoner and making them a big target. Safest option is to use it by itself on your Wraith (hidden deep in a wood) to 'almost' guarantee those Dryad summons.
**Vesperal Gem (which guarantees the cast, but with a small chance of mortals) is roughly equivalent to the Chalice without tying you to a glade. This can then be supplemented with Spellsinger (+6 range, which you can double by using the balewind vortex), or Winterleaf/Harvestboon/Dreadwood if you're taking a battalion.
*The trait, whilst great at keeping stuff alive, is limited the same way as the Chalice - Wych, Wraith or Ancient only. Great for keeping an Ancient alive and keeping the damage table topped up. Wraith is less than ideal as you ideally want her away from the action.

===Heartwood===

*''Ability'': '''Courage for Kurnoth''': +1 Bravery wholly within 12" of heroes.
*''Command Ability'': '''Lord of the Hunt''': [[Markerlight|Reroll melee hit and wound rolls of 1 against 1 enemy unit within 12" of a hero]].
*''Command Trait'': '''Legacy of Valour''': If the general is slain, do D3 mortal wounds to an enemy unit within 1" on a 2+. On a 6, do D6 instead.
*''Artefact'': '''Horn of the Consort''': Reroll hits for Kurnoth Hunters wholly within 12".

The reliability choice. The CA overlaps with the Artefact as is a better version of the free one you get with Arch Revenant (now you get wound rolls too). Trait is an added bonus for any hero you ''expect'' to die on in melee somewhere - again, Durthu comes to mind. Those mortals could quite easily finish of that unit he just couldn't quite shift. Bravery boost is nothing to be sniffed at. Put the artefact on the Arch Revenant and have her babysit some Bows (with her +1 attacks and rerolls of 1), then as the battle shifts to meleem, run 18" (that plus two lots of 12" range is 42") to the frontlines to boost your Swords and Scythes. Or throw on a Wych near the bows and put Archie at the front to benefit from both reroll abilities.

===Harvestboon===

*''Ability'': '''Vibrant Surge''': Reroll melee hits of 1 after charging that turn.
*''Command Ability'': '''Fertile Ground''': A unit within 12" of the General gets +1 attacks to all melee weapons.
*''Command Trait'': '''Seek New Fruit''': After attacking, your General can move 6", ending more than 3" from enemy units.
*''Artefact'': '''The Silent Sickle''': One melee weapon of the bearer gets +1 attacks.

The Sparta General choice.
*To make decent use of the Command Trait, you're going to be taking Durthu (or maybe an Ancient on 1000pt games). Similarly, the Artefact is best used on Durthu (or Ancient).
*The Command Ability and Ability are both more-or-less covered with the Arch-Revenant. Either use this as a replacement for the Archie, or load both Command Abilities onto a single unit (assuming you've been holding back the CPs) for +2. Use these on your Kurnoths or your already powered up Durthu. Damn.

===Ironbark===

*''Ability'': '''Stubborn And Taciturn ''': Reroll battleshock tests when wholly within 12" of any heroes.
*''Command Ability'': '''Stand Firm''': Pick one enemy unit that charges within 1", roll a dice. On 2+ they get D3 mortals.
*''Command Trait'': '''Mere Rainfall''': Your General rerolls saves against missile weapons.
*''Artefact'': '''Ironbark Talisman''': +1 for melee wound rolls.

In addition, you get Dispossed and Fyreslayers as allies.

The dwarven choice. Rainfall will probably just make your opponent target elsewhere (but you are forcing that choice upon them). Stand Firm is going to stop any small heroes from charging you.

===Oakenbrow===

*''Ability'': '''Our Roots Run Deep''': Subtract 2 from wounds taken by Treelords of all varieties when looking at the damage table.
*''Command Ability'': '''Yield To None''': Battleshock immunity wholly within 16" of a selected hero.
*''Command Trait'': '''Regal Old-growth''': +1 wound.
*''Artefact'': '''Dawnflask''': 6+ save against wounds and mortal wounds.

The Treelord choice. With all the point reductions to Treelords this sounds like a good idea, but with how terrible the bonuses are, you should probably just use a better Grove. The ability is going to keep Durthu's sword at full strength for twice as long (Up to 4 wounds taken, instead of 2) - but sadly the trait doesn't stack here.

===Winterleaf===

*''Ability'': '''Winter's Bite''': For ''all your units'', unmodified melee hit rolls of 6 score 2 hits.
*''Command Ability'': '''Branch Blizzard''': Extra 12" shooting attack. Roll a dice for each model in target unit, each 6+ is one mortal.
*''Command Trait'': '''My Heart Is Ice''': Every melee wound inflicted on your general, roll a dice, on a 5+ the attacker gets one mortal.
*''Artefact'': '''Frozen Kernel''': Once per game at the start of the combat phase, 1 friendly WINTERLEAF unit wholly with 18" of the bearer can pile in and attack twice. It does the second pile in and attack right after the first time it attacks, and only if it is still within 3" of an enemy unit.

The obvious choice.
*The ability exploding sixes is super deadly. The math works out as more or less the same as +1 to hit. And this is ''across your whole army!''
*The general's feedback on 5+'s in melee can also be super deadly. Can also help keep your guy alive - on a straight Behemoth vs Behemoth fight, those 5+'s will weaken your opponents attacks as it drops down its damage table.
*Regardless of how you play it, the Kernel is always super deadly. But it needs a bit of finesse to ensure you pick the best moment to use it - given that you choose at the start of the phase when to use it, it's very easy to super power something that didn't need it. Make sure to use it before your general is killed too.
*The shooting attack isn't quite so super deadly as everything else, but who cares when you have everything else above. Mostly only of use against hordes and if you've got plenty of spare CPs (which you won't).
*If you're unsure what to take, unsure of how to play Sylvaneth and just want to throw everything into combat then just take Winterleaf. Simple. Super deadly.
*On 1000pt games, where you can only really squeeze in a single big guy, and you really want to take Drycha, then Winterleaf is still useful. Simply make Archie/Wraith/Wych your general. Sure, the Command Trait is wasted, but the Ability and Artefact are still really good.

==Warscrolls==
==={{color|#dda16f|Named Leaders}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Sylvaneth_Alarielle_ENG.pdf Alarielle the Everqueen]:''' (600pts). As expected from the next big over-the-top God model, Alarielle is downright terrifying. Specifics? Sure.
**The lady has a massive pool of 16 Wounds with a 3+ Save and yet she still rocks a 16" Flying Move stat.
**She can heal a Sylvaneth models around her for D3 each turn.
** She also has a strong throwing spear with massive 30" range and the beetle hits harder than anything else in the game. It's so damn strong it damages people standing nearby if it charges and has five damage 5(!) attacks. And her other weapon is basically the Massive Impaling Talon, but supercharged and with 4 attacks and any hit rolls of 6 score D3 mortal wounds.
**Like Nagash, Archaon and Morathi, she is not really something you compare to normal models. She's too powerful for that. She's simply something you try to survive.
**Three casts per turn. Use them to cast Malign Sorcery endless spells and consider giving her the Throne of Vines spell.
**She gets a one shot unblockable summon of a Treelord (regular), 3x Kurnoths, 20x Dryads, 10x Tree- or Spite-Revenants or, umm, a single Branchwych. This effectively dropping her cost by ~200 points, and you get to decide which unit to spend those ~200 points on during the game. Remember, you've probably already got your Dryad summoning covered by the Branchwraiths.
**Back down to 600 points (as per FAQ). If you think you can keep her alive, then she's now a good pick.
**Her spell Metamorphosis (7+), you roll as many dice as the casting roll, and each 4+ deals a mortal to a unit within 16". If that kills the enemy, then you can place a wood there.
**''2019 Differences: Talon no longer auto kills, instead dealing Mortal Wounds, and the spell Metamorphosis is more expensive. However, Battering Ram is now based on the model rather than a terrain piece, but only effects enemy units and Ghyran's Wrath can be used every time (for a CP).''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Drycha_Hamadreth_ENG.pdf Drycha Hamadreth]:''' (300pts). Drycha is back and more pissed off than ever.
**Now if an unmodified hit roll from Flitterfuries or Squirmlings is a 6, it's a mortal wound instead of going through the attack sequence.
**Flitterfuries are an 18" shooting attack with 10 attacks single damage, rend -1. Meanwhile Squirmlings are 2" melee attack, also with 10 attacks single damage, but not rend. At the start of each battle round, you can choose what mood she's in, and as a result one of these attack doubles to 20!
**In addition, her talons give another 6 attacks at damage 2, rend -2. This lady is a beast!
**She's also excessively fast with a 9" Move that is not weakened by her damage table.
**Her spell (6+) scores D3 damage to every unit within 10" based on a roll against the unit's bravery. This ends up being difficult to score damage against high bravery armies such as Death. This spell combos up with her relationship to Spite-Revenants though. The Spites lower enemy Bravery in order to power her damage-off-of-Bravery spell whereas she grants them better To Wound rolls.
**''2019 Differences: She's gone up from 280 points. For that you get both Flitterfuries and Squirmlings, which now have normal attack profiles instead of mortals, but the slendervines attack has gone. You get to choose her mood, instead of rolling, but it's effect isn't quite as good. The spell is simplified, both reducing its max damage, but making it more likely do damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/aos-warscroll-yltharis-guardians-en.pdf Ylthari]:''' (180pts, with Guardians) Shadespire Hero takes root in AOS.
**Requires you to bring Ylthari's Guardians along with.
**Similar to a Branchwych with a bit more melee power and is labelled a {{AOSKeyword|thornwych}}.
**Re-rolls wound rolls of 1.
**Her spell (6+) is a supercharged arcane bolt, giving you an average of 2 mortals per cast.
**Might be best leaving her for Shadespire. You're paying 20 points more for her and the Guardian's than you would for a Branchwych and 5 Tree Revenants and not really gaining much in return.
**Labelled Oakenbow, which as per FAQ, means that if you take another glade, these guys do not benefit from glade bonus. Which makes her now even more useless than before.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

==={{color|#dda16f|Generic Leaders}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Branchwraith_ENG.pdf Branchwraith]:''' (80pts) Essential summoning support
**As a Hero she sports a very meh stat wheel with the exception of her above average movement speed (7"). Her melee will offer only token resistance to opponents, big surprise, she's a Wizard after all, but when in a wood, she gets -1 to hits made against her, which helps. Although you shouldn't really ever be getting her into combat, she should ideally spend her life hidden in woods, teleporting between them.
**That summoning though allows you to summon 10 Dryads ''every turn''. Game breaking? Well, not quite. Firstly you need to successfully cast and not get unbound; secondly said Dryads need placing in a wyldwood more than 9" from an enemy. You basically have to put a forest in your backfield and just use it to churn out dryads, then teleport them where you need them to go. You could be looking at 2-3 movement phases before they can charge anything. If you have any sense you will keep this crazy looking plant lady in your starting Wyldwood (making the lady harder to hit, plus raising her Save like normal cover) or behind your Wyldwood keeping her out of unbind range (30").
**Consider giving your wraith anything that bumps the spell cast (7+, 58.3% chance) to try and guarantee a whole 100pts of Dryads every turn. Take the Stave for an additional cast plus the Throne spell; cast throne (5+, 83.3% chance) then summon at 5+ (again, 83.3% chance). Turn two, another throne cast and you are down to needing 3+. Keep going and you're more or less guaranteed that cast, plus it'll be impossible to unbind. Plus in later turns also gives you the bonus of a cheeky bolt/shield/harmony cast. If you really don't want to use up that artefact slot then another option is taking a battalion and Gnarlroot - the chalice gives her 3 dice, discarding 1, giving you a 74.5% chance.
**Consider taking two Branchwraiths. Use the second one for verdant blessing wood summonings. If the Dryad summoning wraith dies, you have a spare one. Now you can afford to be a little riskier and put one in a wood near the front lines to get those new Dyrads into combat quicker, or get those woods out further. And if that's convinced you, then maybe you want to consider a third Branchwraith. Arm them with an array of Deepwood spells and you should always have something useful to cast, especially given turn 5 (or even 4) it might not be useful to summon more bodies that you won't get into combat. This is probably overboard.
**''2019 Differences: Just some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Branchwych_ENG.pdf Branchwych]:''' (80pts) Aggressive support wizard.
**Same meh stat wheel as the Branchwraith, but with slightly better melee.
**As long as she's taken at least one wound in damage, she gets 2 extra attacks on her scythe.
**Her spell Unleash Spites (5+) is a damaging pulse effecting all enemy units within 9". It works best against the more units that are in range - If there are only 1 or 2 target units in range, then arcane bolt will usually do more damage than the pulse, but it gets better against more units, of course. On average, you'll expect 1.11 mortal wounds per unit.
**In Skirmish, the pulse is extremely broken, as ''every'' model is a unit. So, get within range of the front line and suddenly every model is hit with rolling a ''minimum'' of 5 dice, giving mortal wounds on sixes. Most of those models are single wound chaff, because skirmish doesn't allow you to take any of the good stuff, and you've got a game winning massacre. Sadly that pulse is the only thing we've got going for ourselves in Skirmish.
**The oft whispered about ''Branchwych Bomb'' involves sticking her on a Balewind Vortex inside a mid to frontline wood, giving her Deadly Harvest, Spellsinger, and using whatever casting bonuses you can get hold of. Then sit back and cast both spells, spamming mortals out in 21" and 15" bubbles. In practice you're tying up far too much to get this off reliably. Just don't run crying when your 5 wound guy gets wiped out pronto after one round of this. Clearly hilarious if you can get it to work.
***It's possible to invest even more into this strategy by adding an Umbral Spellportal, but even that doesn't make it worthwhile.
**Difficult to recommend her when you can get a spare Dryad summoning Branchwraith for the same cost, and give her Dwellers Below which isn't that much worse than Unleash Spites.
**''2019 Differences: scythe attacks bonus is better as it is now whilst damaged, instead of just that turn. Also some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spirit_of_Durthu_ENG.pdf Spirit of Durthu]:''' (300pts) This is <s> SPARTAAAAA</s> *ahem* supercharged Treelord.
**The Spirit of Durthu is an absolute damage monster, with extremely powerful shooting, terrifying melee and all the standard tricks of the vanilla Treelord.
**NOT a named character (and therefore not reduced to 0-1 in Matched Play, etc etc), but very expensive.
**A shooting attack that is basically the vanilla Treelord's Strangleroots on steroids, with higher range, more shots and higher damage per shot.
**His sword is just about as terrifying as it looks, with constant damage 6 so long as he stays in good health and 2 bonus attacks for being near a wood.
**You really need those big melee attacks to actually hit. So have consider having your Sylvaneth be from Ghyran, and give your Spirit of Durthu the Ghyrstrike Relic. 3 attacks (plus 2 if near a wyldwood), 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 6 damage. Holy good fuck.
**That damage table is a killer for him. Just two wounds and he goes from 6 to D6 damage. Do the math, and a block of Kurnoth's will output a lower higher end, but similar average output and degrade slower.
**He also adds 1 to the Bravery of friendly Sylvaneth.
**Now only 300 points since the FAQ. Maybe we'll start seeing him in lists again.
**''2019 Differences: Other than the stuff copied across from the Vanilla Treelord, he loses the damaging shooting supercharge and the ability to take wounds from others (not that either were used much). The bonus for being near a wood is a fixed 2 attacks instead of D3. So, no practical changes, but he has gone down from 380 points! Drycha and Durthu are almost level pegging, and make for a scary combo.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Treelord_Ancient_ENG.pdf Treelord Ancient]:''' (260pts). The swiss army knife Treelord
**If Durthu is a supercharged Treelord, then this is the slightly weaker but more useful version. He retains all the abilities and powers of the vanilla.
**Compare to a Vanilla Treelord, this guy has 1" less movement and 1 less attack on its Sweeping Blows. This doesn't seem like much, but the drop from 4 to 3 attacks is actually quite drastic. And what does this old fella get in return? An extra 3 to its Bravery, 18" range on its strangle roots, gains a command ability and becoming a freakin' wizard!
**His unique spell will do D3 damage to any enemy units on or around your woods. It's either a great deterrent to entering your woods or a great punishment if the opponent was dumb enough to actually do it.
**Once per battle he can unconditionally summon a new wood. This makes him an almost must take if you want a ''guaranteed'' second wood out on your first turn. Note this is once per game, not once per Ancient per game. Wholly within 18" is not that long a range, so if you're dropping turn one (before you've moved anything) you're not going to be using it for backline deep striking. However, If you teleport the Ancient to the wood, then next turn a 24" verdant blessing wood should give you all the range you need.
**Has a Command Ability that lets all the Sylvaneth around him reroll saves of 1s.
**He's got a lot of stuff going on. And now at 260 points maybe he's decent value, ''if'' you use everything he has to offer. Possibly works best in 1000pt lists where you've got less room other stuff.
**''2019 Differences: Other than the stuff copied across from the Vanilla Treelord, the wood summons is just once unconditionally instead of on a 4+, and some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Arch_Revenant_ENG.pdf Arch-Revenant]:''' (100pts) A newbie in the Sylvaneth ranks, added with the Looncurse battlebox.
**Is very fast, with a move of 12" and an ability to fly until she loses her mount (see below).
**Has the best non-Behemoth Hero melee in Sylvaneth (which doesn't say much): three 2" 3+/3+/-2 Dmg 2 attacks with her glave and a single 4+/3+ Dmg D3 attack with her mount.
**Slightly more survivable than a Branchwych, with five wounds, a 4+ save and an ability to sacrifice her mount to negate one allocated normal or mortal wound.
**Has a shield for either defensive or offensive use: at the start of the combat phase you may chose to use it to re-roll either save rolls or hit rolls of 1.
**Automatically buffs Kurnoth Hunters within 12" of herself, allowing them to re-roll hit rolls of 1 (both melee and shooting).
**Has a great command ability, adding 1 attack to each model's weapon in a unit within 9" (12" if the Arch-Revenant is your General). Combine this ability with alpha-striking unit of Tree-Revenants, or buff the hell out of Kurnoth Sword/Scythes - either way, it'll really hurt your opponent. Only works in the melee phase, so no buffing Kurnoth bows.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

==={{color|#dda16f|Battleline}}===
''Unconditional battleline''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Dryads_ENG.pdf Dryads]:''' (100/270pts, min 10, max 30) Your rank and file angry trees. These ladies are thankfully quite versatile and so can be used for a variety of situations.
**At first glance the ladies don't look like much, having only a 5+ Save and 2 attacks at 4+/4+/-/1. But they quickly become incredible as in units of 10+ they gain +1 Save, they hit on 3+ in your combat phase and they also have 2" range on their attacks, letting them fight in thick, two-row hedges. They also profit from being near a wood (-1 to hits against them), this is in addition to +1 save for being in cover. They are also very fast at 7". Keep them in big units as the Save-bonus and the 2" range heavily reward you for doing so.
**You can abuse their buffed save rolls by adding a unit of Sisters of the Thorn so you can reroll failed saves (which also deals a mortal on 6), so a large unit in a wood now has 3+ with reroll. For chaff, that's pretty damn good. However, those Sisters are going to cost you a fair bit in return.
**With Cities of Sigmar, Sisters of the Thorn's spell can only be used on WANDERERS unit, so Dryads cannot make use of it anymore.
**Remember to bring at least an additional 20 of these for the Branchwraith to summon. Unless you plan on playing super defensive, you won't need more than 30 spare.
**''2019 Differences: Wholly within measuring means no more daisy chains across the board. However, the large unit bonus is now 10 instead of 12. With all the other changes going on, pure Dryad spamming is probably no longer our strongest build.''

''Battleline in {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}}''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Tree_Revenants_ENG.pdf Tree-Revenants]:''' (80/420pts, min 5, max 30) Troops for tricksy players - not your mainline infantry.
**At first glance look disappointing, with basically the same stat-wheel as Dryads but lower Move. Now here's where it gets good....
**They have Rend in melee, unlike the Drayds.
**They have the coolest rerolls in the game, getting to reroll 1 dice per ''phase''. So this seems wonky in melee, doesn't it? Well, it also allows them to reroll the dice to run, one of the charge dice, the Battleshock dice... you get the picture.
**The standards allow them to pile in 6" which lets them get more attacks in.
**Most importantly, the musician allows them to use a better Spirit Paths rule, letting you take them off the table and then place them '''anywhere''' on the table more than 9" from enemy units.
**Leader either gets two additional attacks or +1 damage.
**Do ''not'' use these guys as as you would Dryads. They aren't particularly killy, they will die quickly if attacked first and their kit is way too expensive to use lots of them. They are for board control:
***Charge blockers. Save until your opponent gets ready to charge a very killy unit they want to get into combat asap, then teleport a wall of Revenants in front. Revenants will die instantly in the following combat, but it'll free up your more important units.
***Back line threatening. Your opponent can no longer keep those war machines, Jezzails and Poisoned Wind Mortars unguarded. Minimum-size squads of them also have just high enough of a damage output to cut all the aforementioned units to ribbons. But, you will say, the 9" charge after teleporting is improbable. No. Since they can reroll one of the charge dice, they are more likely to make that charge than to fail it. A good rule of thumb is to use 2 units of minimum size. That way, it's very likely at least one of them will make the charge and then they will more than likely deal enough damage to neuter the war machine you attacked.
***Objective taking. Without any Revenants, your opponent might decide to leave a captured objective unguarded. With Revenants either you can teleport and grab the objective or they'll be wise to this and need to keep a unit tied up - one big enough to survive a teleport and charge strike.
**''2019 Differences: Teleporting is now anywhere instead of near a wood or table edge. It's a small change, but a good one.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spite_Revenants_ENG.pdf Spite-Revenants]:''' (60/200pts, min 5, max 20) Less tricksy, more creepy Tree-Revenants.
**No rend and single damage, but 3 attacks at +3/+3 each!
**They also exist to muck around with enemy Bravery. They flat reduce the Bravery of enemies around them, which combos well with Drycha's unique spell. Plus they force them to reroll passed battleshock tests. Even Death armies can end up with some battleshock losses.
**1" range means it'll be tricky getting all 61 attacks of a 20 model unit fully into combat.
**Your glass cannon battleline: Hits really hard, dies really quickly. Use Dryads for staying power.
**200 points for 20 of these is the same as Dryads! Against bad save hordes these guys might be the superior option. Sadly, it'll hurt your wallet a lot more - £90 for 20 vs £31.25 for the same in Dryads (add in your own local currency multiplier).
**''2019 Differences: 10 points drop, the scenery rule is switched for the rerolling battleshock, and attacks are up from +4/+4 to +3/+3, that's a huge boost! Finally these are a valid battleline option. GW must really want people to start playing these guys.''

==={{color|#dda16f|Other Troops}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Greatswords_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Greatswords]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12) The ultimate wooden killing machine.
**Incredible. Each of these guys is basically a minor Hero at 5 Wounds and a 4+ Save.
**The sword tosses out 4 attacks at -1 Rend and damage 2. And deals an additional mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6.
**When melee attacking, if they don't need to move (other than 1" pile in), they can gain the ability to re-roll saves.
***Since the warscroll only says at the start of the charge phase but doesn't specify whose, they can technically charge and pile in normally in your charge phase and then use Tanglethorn Thicket in your opponent's if you went first.
**At the end of combat you deal mortal wounds on a 4+ for each model in your unit
**They also channel Command Abilities. When you use a Command ability, any unit wholly within 12" of a Kunroth is also counted as being in range of the casting hero.
**GW has switched the points for these up and down over the years. Down again slightly for 2020
**Consider pretending you're playing 40K and magnetise the arms for different weapon loadouts below. If you fix the weapons on one unit then you'll have enough shoulder pads spare to better magnetise a second unit. The Quiverbugs are trickier to magnetise. Sadly there are no official rules for using plasma cannons.
**These guys are crazy good now, especially if you take them in Winterleaf. Stick an Arch-Revenant next to a unit, send into something big, and watch it go **POOF**. Pop command ability for 10 attacks hitting on 3+, 5 attacks on 2+, reroll 1's to hit, with 6's causing mortal wounds AND extra attacks?! All wounding on 3's with their -1 rend and flat 2 damage (Bonus points for using the Frozen Kernel so they can do it again. Even Nagash will tremble in terror.)
**''2019 Differences: Other than the warscroll split, failed saves confusion has been fixed, some range changes, improvement to the end of combat damage. Plus swords get an extra mortal. Even stronger than before. With the mortal wounds buff, better than scythes against everything, though with 1" less range.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Scythes_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Scythes]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12)
**Same as above, but with longer weapon range of the scythes, which tosses out 3 attacks at Rend -2 and damage D3. The scythes do more damage against 2+ saves, break even against 3+ and the swords win against everything else. But that's before taking into account the mortal wounds on 6 the Swords deal out (which the scythes don't get).
**In general the swords are your better option (especially given how rare 2+ and even 3+ saves are in AoS).
**However, the scythes have 2" reach. You'll want this for units of 6 or more to get them all into combat or if you want to place a screen of Dryads (preferably on the edge of a woods) or Revenants in front and attack through them. Tricksier players will go for the scythes.
**''2019 Differences: Same as the swords variant, except for no new additional weapon damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Greatbows_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Greatbows]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12)
**Same as above, but now with ranged weapons.
**A stunning 30" range, two shots per model and D3 damage per shot, these guys are basically artillery.
**You also get the adorable Quiverlings who do the melee fighting for them, being very non-threatening, but remember, these guys are tough as nails and you can shoot into melee. Does a lot less damage overall than melee weapons, and you can only shoot during your turn (unlike melee, effectively halving the potential damage done per game), but that range means you won't be getting attacked back. How dare they! The Quiverlings are no longer the source of their melee damage! Somehow, the giant tree people have learned to punch things of their own accord now
**Take into account our woods block line of sight (so no camping in woods) and Look Out Sir means you should probably avoid sniping guarded heroes.
**Bows were the best option in original AOS, no longer so essential in AOS2.
**''2019 Differences: Same as the swords variant, except for no new additional weapon damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/aos-warscroll-yltharis-guardians-en.pdf Ylthari’s Guardians]:''' (Free with Ylthari) Shadespire Tree Revenants without the good stuff.
**Can only be taken along with Ylthari.
**Tree Revenants without a musician or banner, so you loose the pile in and teleport abilities.
**In return you get three different weapon profiles (sword, glaive, bow), which are upgrades on the Tree Revenants.
**Plus on a D6 3+ you get to attack first, which is going to make them a lot less fragile than standard Tree Revenants.
**You also lose the Tree Revs reroll any dice per phase, but you can reroll wounds of 1.
**Labelled {{AOSKeyword|tree revenant}}, but Ylthari isn't. As written means you can include them in Tree Revenant battalion requirements, even though you still have to bring along Ylthari who wouldn't then be in the battalion. Needs an FAQ to confirm.
**Rules as Written their Martial Memories ability will cause themselves and ANY other Tree-Revenant unit within 3" of enemy units to fight first, on a 3+, in the combat phase. This needs playtesting to see if it's worth the points, but in theory it sounds almost too good to be true. You'd bring Ylthari's Guardians to turn your decent Tree-Revenants into better than Dryad melee blenders. Yeah, that's gone as of the battletome. Now Martial Memories is the same as the ability on the Tree-Revenants.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos_skaeths_wild_hunt_en.pdf Skaeth’s Wild Hunt]:''' (120pts, min/max 5) Straight outa Beatsgrave
**5 unique models with ok melee (max damage of six wounds with all models) and a little bit of shooting (a single close range and single far range attack)
**One wound each, but the leader gets one extra. And the one of them is a Wizard.
**Might be easier to just think of these guys as a 120pt six wound wizard with a behemoth damage table. Remember, each model killed results in fewer attacks/abilities. Just make sure you remove the models you most care about last.
**Spell (CV 7), as long as the model lives, gives you +1 to wounds rolls on a nearby unit, which is neat. Especially given that's something not covered elsewhere in the faction. Sadly it's a fairly high casting value.
**They can still charge and shoot after running, not that you'll be charging them much.
**Unique and not a hero.
**Really, the +1 wounds spell to work alongside your other buffs is the reason you'll be taking these guys. In an either/or choice, the Arch Revenant is 20pts cheaper and better, and the wych/wraiths are 50% cheaper if you just want a wizard.
**Like Ylthari, labelled Oakenbow, which as per FAQ, means that if you take another glade, these guys do not benefit from the glade bonus. Which makes them now even more useless than before.

===Behemoths===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Treelord_ENG.pdf Treelord]:''' (180pts) ''The'' Walking Tree. (aka Groot)
**[[DISTRACTION CARNIFEX]] with appropriate stats to match.
**At the start of combat he can stomp and on a 4+ cause one enemy unit to fight at the end of combat.
**You get a single attack at rend -2, and on a 6 it goes from 1 damage to D6 mortal wounds.
**Instead of moving, if close to a wood, he can teleport to another wood, more than 9" from enemies. This is in addition to the single unit that can do the same using the allegiance ability. Deep Strike!
**And they can also shoot, which is decent, not much worse than a unit of Bow Kurnoths.
**It should be remembered that these guys class as monsters and carry all the baggage that comes with that (You know declining stats, Large model, everyone wants to shoot it. that sort of thing), its still a pretty kickass unit.
**Everything this guy can do, Durthu and the Ancient can do, and more. But you're paying appropriately for them.
**This guy rarely sees usage. He's not a bad choice, it's just Kurnoth's, at only 20 points more, are a better choice. And if you really want him, the Ancient and Durthu give you more.
**''2019 Differences: Stomp has changed from causing -1 to hits against, impale has been simplified. And down from 240 points!''

===Scenery===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Awakened_Wyldwood_ENG.pdf Awakened Wyldwood]:''' Trees everywhere.
**New models!
**An Awakened Wyldwood consists of 3-6 citadel woods arranged to form a circle. Everything inside is treated as woods.
**A Citadel wood is a single tree with a bit of base. They come in packs of three, which when formed into a circle are roughly the same size as the old dinner plate model.
**FAQ states you can use one old citadel wood model as one awakened wood terrain piece. Given that one old wood is roughly the same size of 3 new woods, you're at a disadvantage using them.
**Line of sight blockers, so no camping your shooters in woods.
**If a wizard casts a spell near a wood, then all nearby non-Sylvaneth get D3 mortals on a 5+.
**At the end of the charge phase, all nearby non-Sylvaneth get D3 mortals on a 6.
**Remember those damages hurt your allies and your ally in doubles games.
**All Treelords and one other unit per turn can teleport between two of these instead of moving.
**Branchwraiths, Branchwyches, Dryads and Durthu all gain bonuses for being near a wood.
**As per the allegiance ability, you can place one of these at the start of the game. The Acorn artefact and the Treelord Ancient can both unconditionally place one wood per game. The verdant blessing spell (6+) is known by all our wizards and can place a new wood per turn if successfully cast. Alarielle can set up a new wood after killing a unit with her spell (if there is room).
**Your first wood needs to be more than 6" from an objective, but none of the other wood placements have that restriction.
**Your opponent is going to want to place lots of scenery during setup and then spread out during the first turn in order to block our wood placements. A situation made worse by the increase in faction specific scenery. You could quite easily end up only get out the start wood and one more during an entire game. Getting first turn can help mitigate this.
**The new models will mean an end to tree-less bases, and they'll fit in your army storage box. However, it's yet to be seen how many of these you're going to need to bring along per game and whether they are as crucial as they were in previous additions. You could end up bringing along 8 packs of these, which still ends up being a significant upfront cost for the army and it's still a lot of extra plastic you're carting around between games.
**Note that the entire inside of the ring of woods is counted as part of the Awakened Wyldwood, which means you can't use a wildwood to surround another piece of scenery or objective.
**''2019 Differences: New models! No longer auto kills small guys after charge/runs, instead doing damage by just being close. Max footprint of a wood has shrunk by a third.''

==Battalions==

===Forest Folk===
'''''A Branchwraith and three units of Dryads''''' ''140pts (520pts min -> 1,030pts max)''

Units can retreat and then still charge that turn.

Great for controlling the flow of combat. Essentially the opposite of Household. Stops your tar pits getting locked into combat with something you didn't want to, usually due to them charging first. Alternatively, if done correctly, you can bypass combat screens - charge into the screen one turn, then the following turn, retreat further up the board and charge your real target. Ignore the Branchwraith here, she's just included to reduce the number of drops.

''2019 Differences: Replaces the old ability that lets you take the entire Battalion off the table and then redeploy them close to your Wyldwoods.''

===Free Spirits===

'''''A Spirit of Durthu and three units of Kurnoth Hunters''''' ''140pts (1,080pts min -> 2,880pts max)''

Always rolls a 6 for a run.

Nice. Running instead of charging allows you to tanglethorn for save rerolls when the enemy charges in the following turn. You'll be wanting Scythes because you'll need the range on your tiny pile in. Don't use it to try and deepstrike Durthu or the like if board placement has denied you getting out any woods, as you'll now have lone units who can no longer shoot or charge until the next turn vulnerable to counterattack.

If you are taking these units, then you probably are also want the cheapest battleline you can get hold of, which is 3x5 Spites - and if you're doing ''that'', then Outcasts is 40 points cheaper. Anyone wanting three artefacts, then this and Outcasts together would work.

''2019 Differences: Much simpler than the old ability where you move twice but has to be closer to some scenery''

===Household===

'''''A vanilla Treelord, a Branchwych and a unit of Tree-Revenants''''' ''100pts (440pts min -> 780pts max)''

Units locked in combat with the Household cannot retreat.

That's an amazing ability for controlling the board, sadly the unit choices aren't the best. However, consider a blob of 30 freely teleporting Tree Revenants with 6" pile ins (and a 60pt hoard discount) and you're going to lock down whatever threats ''you'' want to for multiple turns until they chew through or die. Use the woods to throw your Treelord followed by Branchwych bomb to lock down a different unit elsewhere. Now consider how much six boxes of Revenants is going to cost to do this. Yeah.

''2019 Differences: The old version also had +1 Bravery, but that's gone now.''

===Lords of the Clan===

'''''Two to four Treelord Ancients and one to three normal Treelords''''' ''60pts (760pts min -> 1640 max)''

During your shooting phase, every enemy within 6" of 2+ Treelords, gets D3 mortals on a 2+ roll.

At 60 points, this is a bargain given it's only 10 more than a command point, and If you really want lots of trees then this is a no brainer. Ability requires you teleport deep strike in pairs, but you won't get those mortals until ''your'' next turn after charging (assuming the whole pair stays alive). Having to take two Ancients is the tax here - most the Ancient's abilities don't double up, leaving your second Ancient mostly as a Treelord with a much lower damage output (however, you do get the additional spell plus the choice of which Ancient to use for its abilities).
Being forced to take in pairs is a good as the stomp becomes much more reliable (from 50% to 75%), with the chance you can stomp a second enemy.
For the most use out of this you want two pairs of Ancient+Vanilla, but that uses up almost half your points and all your behemoths slots in a 2000pt game. Two Ancients and one Vanilla is easier to build around, but that magnifies the Ancient tax and neuters the battalion ability.
For pure damage output and survivability, Dreadwooding a large block of Kurnoth's is mathematically the better choice. However, two pairs of stomping Trees are much more flexible.
In addition, taking LOTC enables you to take a mixed battleline (say, one each of Spites, TreeRevs and Dryads) instead of the usual block of Outcasts or Forest Folk - or take both if you really want the artefacts/CPs.

''2019 Differences: Old ability was only for one name Treelord, was a wider range, but less reliable.''

===Outcasts===

'''''Three units of Spite-Revenants''''' ''100pts (280pts min -> 700pts max)''

Any enemy unit that fails battleshock within (not wholly within!) 3" loses an additional D3 models.

Remember that Spites lower enemy bravery too.
If you want the cheapest possible battleline plus battalion, then this is the choice to take, for just 280pts total - just don't expect them to last long.

''2019 Differences: This used to be a damage pulse based on enemy bravery.''

===Wargrove===

'''''One Lords of the Clan, three Households, three Forest Folks, one Free Spirits and one Outcasts.''''' ''80pts (5,240pts min -> 11,010pts max)''

Our only remaining super battalion. Allows you to place '''two''' Wyldwoods at the start of the game instead of one. Still, way too big to use unless you're playing 6000 point games.

''2019 Differences: Unchanged from the old battletome.''

==Army Building==

===1000 pts===

Two SC boxes and a box of Revenants get you a solid core. Convert one of the <del>useless</del> Branchwyches into a Branchwraith by stealing her scythe and pet. You will want more Dryads if you do this so the Wraith actually gets to do her job.

* Grove: Winterleaf
* Treelord Ancient (General, Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* Branchwych (The Dwellers Below)
* 30 Dryads
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* Treelord

Total: 990 pts

You can also replace the Treelord with a unit of Kurnoth Hunters (give them the Greatswords).

To upgrade from that, get a bag of newly-undercosted Spite Revenants and a guaranteed second Wood:

* Grove: Winterleaf or Dreadwood
* Treelord Ancient (General, Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Drycha Hamadreth (Deadly Harvest or The Dwellers Below)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* 20 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Tree-Revenants
* Soulsnare Shackles

Total: 1000 pts

If you got the Looncurse set (or if you prefer), you can also do this:

* Grove: Winterleaf
* Treelord Ancient (Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Arch-Revenant (General)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 6 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatswords)

The Arch-Revenant can stay safe and buff the Hunters with her Command Ability thanks to Envoys of the Everqueen.

Alternatively, you can be a dick and bring a god to the table:

* Grove: Winterleaf or Dreadwood
* Alarielle (Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (General, Grove artefact, Throne of Vines)
* 20 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants

Total: 1000 pts

Can cut most of the Spite-Revenants for... something? Allied 3 Ishlaen guard? A Knight-Incantor? Open for suggestions, but if you do that, consider going groveless.

===2000 pts===

====Winterleaf starter List====
Two Wraiths (+spell reliability), Drycha (+regrowth), Hive, and blobs of Kurnoths with Arch Rev are a solid base for ''any'' list.
Winterleaf is a good pick as being very strong and the easiest-to-play grove.

If you played Sylvaneth before the recent changes, chances are you have a <del>forest</del> fair number of Dryads, Forest Folk puts them to good use:
* Grove: Winterleaf
* Battalion: Forest Folk
* Arch-Revenant (General, grove artefact)
* Drycha Hamadreth (Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (Spiritsong Stave, Throne of Vines)
* Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony)
* 30 Dryads
* 20 Dryads
* 10 Dryads
* 9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
* Spiteswarm Hive
*''Total: 1990 pts''

If you prefer less battleline (you'll most likely be getting +30-40 Dryads per game), then Outcasts gets you the cheapest battleline plus artefact. Simply swap Dryads and Forest Folk for:
* Battalion: Outcasts
* 5 Spite Revenants
* 5 Spite Revenants
* 5 Spite Revenants

This now leaves you with 440 points to play with. Possibilities include:
*6 Kurnoths and Skullroot spell?
*Durthu and 10 Dryads? And maybe switch to Harvestboon.
*3 Kurnoths, 5 Tree Revenants, +5 Spite Revenants to an existing block, and 10 Dryads?

====Dreadwood Teleportation====
Dreadwood lets you dodge a lot of mobility concerns that can occur with the new terrain rules - combined with up to +5 to charges and Envoys of the Everqueen, Kurnoth can deliver a punch wherever you want it.

* Grove: Dreadwood
* Battalion: Outcasts
* Arch-Revenant (General, grove artefact)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony)
* 30 Dryads
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
* 6 Kurnoth Hunters (Swords)
* Chronomatic Cogs
* Spiteswarm Hive
* Extra Command Point

Total: 1990 pts

==Allied Armies==

The problem with allies, is that they do not get the {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}}-Keyword. Our Forests can and will turn on our allies if they get too close. This massively reduces their mobility, weakens our board control and potentially makes us lose our models without the enemy having to do anything.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Stormcast Eternals|Stormcast Eternals]]:''' You don't particularly need stormcast. Their play style is too different from traditional Sylvaneth play and overall they don't synergise too well. Perhaps with the upcoming Stormcast Sacrosanct chamber, something might be available to use well with Sylvaneth, but as of now don't bother. Stormcasts are just too slow to keep up with us and allies can't make up for this with Deep Strikes. Prosecutors might be a better option than the infantry on foot, but the would-be woefully under supported, due to the lack of Stormcast Heroes. Additionally, they have worse shooting than our (costlier) options and again, do not benefit from Stormcast specific abilities or commands.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Wanderers|Wanderers]]:''' Okayish, and fluffy which is important, however as previously mentioned above, you only have 200/400pts to spare, which simply isn't enough to gain any meaningful army support from the Wanderers - ''although with the recent warscroll and point changes in the Cities of Sigmar release, maybe there is something to look at here.'' Wanderers suffer from much the same problems as Stormcast. Everything they can do, we can do better, with everything they need, we can't provide. 200-400 points are not all that much and spending these on a Unit of Glade Guard and a Hero gives us, again, worse shooting and we can only heal and not revive Models. This basically means that the many single-wound models are nearly worthless fodder. Sisters of any variation are simply too expensive to be a viable choice for us and don't benefit us. Wasted points, that we could use better for Hunters.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Idoneth Deepkin|Idoneth Deepkin]]:''' The fish guys have lots of cross-unit synergies, which are of no use here. Consider the Akhelian Guards (Ishlaen and Morrsarr). Compared to the Kurnoths, they are faster at 14' and can fly (but can't use wyldwood teleporting and need to stay way from them too), they pack more punch (but are much more fragile) and they are cheaper too.
**Alternately, consider running a Deepkin army with the "Alliance of Wood and Sea" Battalion, giving you all the benefits of the Deepkin tides at the cost of having only one forest (for better and worse) via the Treelord Ancient's Silent Communion ability.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Dispossessed|Dispossessed]]:''' (Only if general is {{AOSKeyword|IRONBARK}})

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Fyreslayers|Fyreslayers]]:''' (Only if general is {{AOSKeyword|IRONBARK}}): Surprisingly useful alliance despite not being common in the lore. The Fyreslayers bring a lot of Mortal Wounds to the table, especially if a Runefather or Runeson on Magmadroth is chosen. With Hearthguard Berserkers, bring a Fyerslayer hero along with them and they can eat Mortal Wounds for you, being able to resist them on a 4+.

==Buying Guide==

Sylvaneth is mixed in terms of unit price values. Some can be cheap, others horrendously expensive, but that's GW. A cliché recommendation would be the start collecting box. Sadly the Branchwych is of less use than she used to be.

Note that due to models coming from WFB, a box of Dryads has 16 models, so to get full use of them, you'll want two boxes giving you 3 dryad units plus 2 spare. Make these up as 3 Dryad Nymphs and 29 normal Dryads to give you full WYSIWYG flexibility of unit sizes. 5 boxes gets you a full usage with 80, which is probably enough unless you go full Dryad spam.

{{Age_of_Sigmar_Tactics}}

Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Sylvaneth

2020-10-10T00:41:33Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Why play Sylvaneth? */

{{Age of Sigmar Faction|Faction=Sylvaneth|Logo=Most Friendly Being In Sylvaneth.jpg|Alliance=Order|Motto=WALKING TREES I TELL YOU! WALKING TREES!}}

==Why play Sylvaneth?==
* You like trees, nature and/or gardening.
* You like being able to teleport around the battlefield.
* You watched the Marvel films and are a big fan of Groot.
* Your favorite scenes in the Lord of the Rings is the Ents attack on Isengard or the Huron wiping out an Orc army, or Treebeard is your favorite character. (not that I blame you)
* Your a painter who loves varieties of colors.
* You like armies that straddle the line between elite and horde.

====Pros====
*New battletome for 2019 that replaces the four fixed one-drop army lists with a whole host of choices.
*We have a lot of new and glorious models, almost completely in plastic (just one finecast, which you ''will'' be needing... and even then you can kitbash one up from plastic models).
*Easily paintable chaff with Dryads. Which is useful as you'll be painting a lot of them.
*Almost everything we have is at least -1 Rend.
*We get around quickly. One of our Battleline moves 7". Other stuff can teleport. If you like mobility and board control, we are one of the best choices to date.
*Just look at Alarielle model. Her buffs and damage output are almost as awesome as she looks.
*Massive Board Control if you can get those woods out.
*Kurnoth Hunters. Even by heavy infantry standard in AoS, absolute damage monsters. They will do a lot of heavy lifting.
*Great, often colourful paint schemes. Whether you want your trees to be in full bloom, fiery autumn or paint them as a haunted ghastly forest, you have a lot of choices.
*Lorewise, we boast one of the leaders of an entire realm and two survivors from the World-That-Was (three if you count the Spirits of Durthu).
*I am Groot.

====Cons====
*We are very bad to transport. Seriously it's a pain with all these small bits and twigs. Even foam packaged boxes hurt us. You'll want magnets and a big metal box.
*Limited defense against Mortal Wounds - just a single artefact on 5+ and a glade Command Ability on 6+.
*Those Citadel Woods have been replaced with newer models, but you're still going to be requiring a few sets of them, which is still going to be a significant investment and still be a pain to transport. Just not quite as bad as before.
*A reputation for being no fun to play against due to overly defensive turtling. That should be mitigated now, but opinions die hard.
*Spite Revenant hordes are super expensive in terms of cash.
*Current terrain and terrain placement rules make it more difficult to add wildwoods to the table, hindering mobility and tactical planning.
*I am Groot.

==Rulebooks==
{{AOSRulebooks|tome=Sylvaneth (2019)|points=[https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/40ad8aeb.pdf Sylvaneth Errata]}}

==Allegiance Abilities==

===Battle Traits===
Armies with the {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} allegiance have the following abilities:

*'''Awakened Wyldwoods''': After territories have been determined but before armies are set up, set up ONE Awakened Wyldwood anywhere on the battlefield more than 1" from any other terrain feature, 1" from enemy territory, and more than 6" from any objectives. Soon in this article you will see why you can't really play Sylvaneth without them. ''2019 Differences: Distance changes.''

*'''Forest Spirits''': You can set up a {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit aside for every unit deployed on the field. In any of your movement phases, you can deploy it on the battlefield. Units must be set up wholly within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood and more than 9" from any enemy models. This is their move for that movement phase. Sylvaneth deep strike. Exploit it with Spirits of Durthu, melee Kurnoth Hunters, and their shared battalion, Free Spirits. [[Rocks fall, everyone dies|Trunks fall, everyone dies]]. ''2019 Differences: Distance changes.''

*'''Navigate Realmroots''': Instead of moving in the movement phase, ONE {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit wholly within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood can be moved to wholly within 6" of another, different, wood, and of course more than 9" from any enemy. Treelord varieties have the Spirit Walk Ability and can teleport in addition to this one unit. ''2019 Differences: This used to be usable for multiple units a turn and the rolling after has gone. Definite nerf, but also simpler to use.''

*'''Places of Power''': After territories are chosen but before armies are deployed, select one terrain feature (this could be an Awakened Wyldwood YOU deploy according to order of operations... might need an FAQ). Friendly Sylvaneth units wholly within 6" of said terrain feature do not take battleshock tests. Interesting buff, it lets you sort of pick a focal point of where you want to commit to battle, and then have your, say, 30 block of dryads get to ignore battleshock while holding up the enemy.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Command Traits}}===
A general of an army with a {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} allegiance can choose one Command Trait from the lists below (be advised that if you choose your army to be one of the Wargroves, you are forced to take a specific command trait instead of one of these):

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Aspects Of War}}'''
#'''Dread Harvester''': If you charged, you can reroll melee hit rolls.
#'''Gnarled Warrior''': Reroll saves of 1. ''This used to be ignore rend unless it's -2 or better.''
#'''Gift of Ghyran''': Your general heals 1 wound at the start of each of your hero phases. ''This used to bump to D3 if near a wood.''
#'''Lord of Spites''': Reroll all wound rolls of 1. ''This used to be reroll first failed hit roll. So, that's better now.''
#'''Warsinger''': +2 to any charge rolls made for friendly {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units that are wholly within 12" of your general. Good choice for turning a spirit path walk into a charge on the same turn; essential for any alpha strike lists. ''Used to be +1 and within 10" (but not wholly).''
#'''Wisdom of the Ancients''': All friendly {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units wholly within 12" of your general in the battleshock phase add 1 to their Bravery. Best near revenants, your most vulnerable to battleshock. ''Used to be within 10" (but not wholly).''

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Aspects Of Renewal}}'''

{{AOSKeyword|Wizards}} only
#'''Arcane Bounty''': General knows 1 extra Deepwood spell.
#'''Mystic Regrowth''': If General successfully cast a spell, then heal D3 wounds at end of hero phase.
#'''Voice Of Warding''': General can unbind one extra spell per turn.
#'''Glade Lore''': General gets +1 to casting rolls when wholly within 6" of a wood.
#'''Spellsinger''': General gets +6 range of all spells. Consider using the balewind vortex to double this. ''2019 changes: This used to be the silverwood circlet.''
#'''Radiant Spirit''': If affected by a spell/endless spell, roll a dice, on a 4+ ignore the effect. Note the correct usage of affect and effect.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Artefacts}}===

One {{AOSKeyword|hero}} in an army with a {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance and has chosen to take the {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance abilities, plus one {{AOSKeyword|hero}} for every battalion selected, can choose one Artefact from the lists below.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Weapons Of The Glades}}'''

These affect a single melee weapon belonging to the bearer
#'''Daith's Reaper''': Additional rend of 1. ''Used to be on 6 get -4 rend. Much more useful now.''
#'''Greenwood Gladius''': If the bearer charges, +2 attacks that turn.
#'''Autumns Ire''': Re-roll hits and wounds of 1 as long as the bearer is wounded.
#'''Winnowstaff''': Can re-roll all hits against enemies with Wounds of 1.
#'''Ancient Barkblade''': +1 damage.
#'''The Darkest Bough''': On an unmodified wound roll of 6, deals an additional D3 mortal wounds

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Boons Of The Everqueen}}'''
#'''The Oaken Armour''': Reroll saves of 1. ''Used to be +1 to save rolls.''
#'''Briarsheath''': -1 Hit penalty for anyone attacking the bearer.
#'''Glamourweave''': 5+ save-after-the-save (mortal wounds only). Great for a Spirit of Durthu tanking Wounds because he can use that to protect himself, and also the only thing in the army that ignores mortal wounds. ''Used to be only 6+.''
#'''Lashvines''': For every non-negated wound from a melee weapon, on a 6 from a D6, the attacker takes 1 mortal wound.
#'''Silken Snares''': Ignore rend of -1 from enemies.
#'''Nightbloom Garland''': Unit is invisible to enemy units more than 12" away.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Verdant Treasures}}'''

#'''Seed of Rebirth''': The first time you lose your last wound roll a D6. On 2+ they come back to life with D3 wounds. Obviously best for a Branchwych/wraith, as a monster with D3 Wounds might as well be dead again. Especially useful on a Branchwych, as if she dies and comes back, she still counts as having taken wounds for the purposes of her bonus. ''Used to not require the dice roll.''
#'''Wraithstone''': Subtract 1 from the Bravery of enemy units within 10" in the Battleshock Phase. Combine with Spite-Revenants for best results.
#'''Everdew Vial''': +2 to run and charge rolls.
#'''Lifewreath''': Roll a dice in hero phase, on 3+ all {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} units wholly within 10" heal +D3 wounds.
#'''Crown Of Fell Bowers''': Pick an enemy within 6" at the start of the combat phase. All friendly {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} can re-roll all wound rolls against them for that phase.
#'''Etherblossom''': Bearer can fly. Durthu will love this.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Relics Of Nature}}'''

{{AOSKeyword|Wizards}} only.
#'''Acorn of the Ages''': Set up a Wyldwood wholly within 12", one-use only. The old favourite artefact of the one drop armies. You can simply throw a forest-shaped wrench into enemy charge lanes, you can let an isolated Hero summon their own reinforcement spawn point, you can make some cover to make a stand. ''This used to be within 5" (not wholly).''
#'''Spiritsong Stave''': Additional spell cast per turn. Amazing!
#'''The Vesperal Gem''': Once per turn, automatically succeed a Deepwood spell roll, which cannot be unbound. Sounds great.... but, then roll a dice, on a 1 you get D3 mortals. Ouchy. Good thing you have healing out the ass. Amazing relic because while you NEED magic, you don't have a lot of multi spell casters OR casting bonuses. Very solid choice. Note, Verdant Blessing is not part of Deepwood, so no autotree spamming.
#'''Luneth's Lamp''': +2 unbinding/dispelling rolls for endless spells.
#'''Hagbane Spite''': If you successfully unbind a spell, the caster gets 1 mortal.
#'''Wychwood Glaive''': Pick a melee weapon, it gets +2 damage against wizards.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Spell Lore}}===

All {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} {{AOSKeyword|wizard}}s know Verdant Blessing, plus they can take a spell from the Deepwood Spell Lore.

'''Verdant Blessing''' (6+): Casting value 6. Sets up an Awakened Wyldwood wholly within 24". As useful as the Wyldwoods are to you, this spell is pretty good. ''This used to be 18", part of the Deepwood list, and was more or less auto include''.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Deepwood Spell Lore}}'''

Every '''WIZARD''' in an army with a {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance and has chosen to take the {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance abilities can choose one of the following Spells:
#'''Throne of Vines''' (5+): Caster gets +2 to cast, but only as long as you don't move. <s>Amazing</s> MUST TAKE for Allarielle and her three casts per turn, which allows her to summon woods on a 4+ and buff her Metamorphosis! Also a must take on a Branchwraith with stave to help her get the Dryads out more consistently. Note that RAW, this effect stacks! Take on a non moving multi caster and by mid game you won't be able to fail a cast and there will be no way to unbind you. ''This used to be +D3 to cast and unbind.''
#'''Regrowth''' (5+): Casting value 5. Heal D6 Wounds to a friendly, visible {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} unit wholly within 18". TAKE IT. I don't care about your strategy, take it. Alarielle? Take it. Treelord Ancient? Take it. Drycha? Take it unless you want a suicide bomb. ''Used to also heal D3 on non-sylvaneth.''
#'''The Dwellers Below''' (7+): Pick a unit within 10", roll a D6 for every model in the unit, every 6 deals a Mortal Wound. Basically Vermintide/New Treason of Tzeentch. It's good, with a potentially gigantic damage output, but unless used against units of 20+, Arcane Bolt will probably do more.
#'''Deadly Harvest''' (6+): Each enemy unit within 3" gets D3 mortals. Nice when you're stuck in melee, but only really good in combination with the Spellsinger command trait. Also, remember that it gets better against multiple small units, but worse against horde armies - essentially the opposite of Dwellers below. ''This used to be call The Reaping.''
#'''Verdurous Harmony''' (7+): A unit wholly within 18" regains 1 slain model (or D3 for Dryads, Tree/Spite Revs). Amazing spell, just can be a little tricky to consistently cast without bonuses. 'New spell! Is a variant of an old wargrove spell.''
#'''Treesong''' (7+): For one enemy unit within 16" and 6" of a wood, you get to re-roll melee hit and wound rolls of 1 against them. What? Very situational and high casting value. Avoid. ''Completely rewritten, used to move a wood 2D6.''

==={{color|#01bbe3|Endless Spells}}===

Note that unlike the some of the [[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Malign Sorcery|generic]] endless spells, the Sylvaneth spells can't be used by your opponent against you (other than moving them out of harms way).

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Gladewyrm_ENG.pdf Gladewyrm]''' (30pts, CV 7, predatory 8"): Ancient protectors of the <s>[[Dune|spice]]</s> realmroots.
**Does D3 mortal wounds to non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units within 1" and heals D3 wounds to {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units wholly within 6" of where it ends up.
**Pretty good for the cost. For best effect, lob it in the middle of any combat not involving your battleline.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Vengeful_Skullroot_ENG.pdf Vengeful Skullroot]''' (40pts, CV 6, predatory 8"): Spooky tree
**Adds D3 to fleeing non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} models that fail battleshock tests within 3".
**Also does D3 mortal wounds to non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units it passes across, boosted to D6 if said units are within 3" of an {{AOSKeyword|AWAKENED WYLDWOOD}}.
**If you can get that D6 off, then this is great. Given the myriad ways of avoiding battleshock, and that enemies avoid woods where possible, you might find better use out of the slightly cheaper Gladewyrm.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spiteswarm_Hive_ENG.pdf Spiteswarm Hive]''' (50pts, CV 7): More of Drycha's little gribbles.
**Lets ''you'' (and only you) choose one of the following effects in ''every'' hero phase (including your opponents) each turn it's around: Roll a dice for each {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit wholly within 8", on a 2+ ''either'' add 3" to normal moves and charge moves ''or'' roll re-roll saves of 1.
**Great spell, however be careful when using the move bonus that your models don't get out of range too quickly.
**Best case is to place it halfway between you and an enemy, use the move bonus to get into combat, then use the save bonus during your opponents turn (assuming you survive the first round of combat).
**The small base size helps to stop it getting in the way of movement, assuming you point the gribbles out of the way.

==Glades==
Every Sylvaneth army gets to optionally belong to a glade ''for free'', which gives you an extra ability, command ability, fixes your General's command trait (you cannot choose from the Allegiance Abilities lists) and fixes your first artefact.

The Core FAQ clarifies that if you take Alarielle/Drycha as your general and a Glade, you don't get the Glade's Command Trait.

''2019 Differences: These are named after the Wargroves from the old Battletome, but they're very different. Instead of being battalions, which restrict what units you take, they force you into a set of abilities/artefacts.''

===Dreadwood===

*''Ability'': '''Malicious Tormentors''': Spite Revs reroll hits of 1.
*''Command Ability'': '''Sinister Ambush''': Once per turn, take a unit within 18" of a Hero and replace them anywhere on the battlefield, >9" of enemy units.
*''Command Trait'': '''Paragon Of Terror''': Enemy units reroll successful battleshock tests when within 6" of your general.
*''Artefact'': '''Jewel Of Withering''': -1 to melee wound rolls attacking the bearer.

The spooky choice. Gives a reason to use lots of Spite-Revenants. The battleshock reroll jells nicely with the Spite's -1 bravery buff, and hit rerolls on top of their 3+ to hit should make them terrifying. The teleporting is only good for deep striking a single unit, but combine with wyldwood teleporting and you can also throw over a bunch of Treelords and a big unit of Dryads at the same time.

===Gnarlroot===

*''Ability'': '''Shield The Arcane''': Units reroll hits of 1 when within 12" of friendly Gnarlroot Wizards.
*''Command Ability'': '''The Earth Defends''': One unit within 12" of a hero negates wounds or mortal wounds on 6+ for that combat phase.
*''Command Trait'': '''Nurtured By Magic''': Once per turn, if your general successfully casts a spell, a unit wholly within 18" heals D3 wounds.
*''Artefact'': '''Chalice Of Nectar''': Roll 3 dice when casting or unbinding and discard one of your choice.

The magicy life choice.
*The ability to reroll 1s (for free) overlaps with the Arch-Revenant, so reasonable chance you already have that covered. But might be an excuse to drop Archie, freeing up 100 sweet points, or use both to further extend across your army (remember, Archie isn't a wizard).
*Command ability is best left for emergency damage limitation on a crucial unit that somehow got into melee, unless you're really good at rolling sixes and have lots of spare CPs.
*The Chalice, which means the bearer well may never fail a cast, sounds awesome at first glance, but it won't make you into a top-tier spellcaster. Your best wizard, Alarielle can't take artefacts (neither can Drycha), so that leaves a you with a Wraith, Wych or Ancient. With your artefact slot taken, the only way to boost your number of casts is to use the the Balewind Vortex on the edge of a wood with the Wraith or Wych, essentially giving you a branchwych bomb (see Branchwych section) or supercharging your Dryad summoner and making them a big target. Safest option is to use it by itself on your Wraith (hidden deep in a wood) to 'almost' guarantee those Dryad summons.
**Vesperal Gem (which guarantees the cast, but with a small chance of mortals) is roughly equivalent to the Chalice without tying you to a glade. This can then be supplemented with Spellsinger (+6 range, which you can double by using the balewind vortex), or Winterleaf/Harvestboon/Dreadwood if you're taking a battalion.
*The trait, whilst great at keeping stuff alive, is limited the same way as the Chalice - Wych, Wraith or Ancient only. Great for keeping an Ancient alive and keeping the damage table topped up. Wraith is less than ideal as you ideally want her away from the action.

===Heartwood===

*''Ability'': '''Courage for Kurnoth''': +1 Bravery wholly within 12" of heroes.
*''Command Ability'': '''Lord of the Hunt''': [[Markerlight|Reroll melee hit and wound rolls of 1 against 1 enemy unit within 12" of a hero]].
*''Command Trait'': '''Legacy of Valour''': If the general is slain, do D3 mortal wounds to an enemy unit within 1" on a 2+. On a 6, do D6 instead.
*''Artefact'': '''Horn of the Consort''': Reroll hits for Kurnoth Hunters wholly within 12".

The reliability choice. The CA overlaps with the Artefact as is a better version of the free one you get with Arch Revenant (now you get wound rolls too). Trait is an added bonus for any hero you ''expect'' to die on in melee somewhere - again, Durthu comes to mind. Those mortals could quite easily finish of that unit he just couldn't quite shift. Bravery boost is nothing to be sniffed at. Put the artefact on the Arch Revenant and have her babysit some Bows (with her +1 attacks and rerolls of 1), then as the battle shifts to meleem, run 18" (that plus two lots of 12" range is 42") to the frontlines to boost your Swords and Scythes. Or throw on a Wych near the bows and put Archie at the front to benefit from both reroll abilities.

===Harvestboon===

*''Ability'': '''Vibrant Surge''': Reroll melee hits of 1 after charging that turn.
*''Command Ability'': '''Fertile Ground''': A unit within 12" of the General gets +1 attacks to all melee weapons.
*''Command Trait'': '''Seek New Fruit''': After attacking, your General can move 6", ending more than 3" from enemy units.
*''Artefact'': '''The Silent Sickle''': One melee weapon of the bearer gets +1 attacks.

The Sparta General choice.
*To make decent use of the Command Trait, you're going to be taking Durthu (or maybe an Ancient on 1000pt games). Similarly, the Artefact is best used on Durthu (or Ancient).
*The Command Ability and Ability are both more-or-less covered with the Arch-Revenant. Either use this as a replacement for the Archie, or load both Command Abilities onto a single unit (assuming you've been holding back the CPs) for +2. Use these on your Kurnoths or your already powered up Durthu. Damn.

===Ironbark===

*''Ability'': '''Stubborn And Taciturn ''': Reroll battleshock tests when wholly within 12" of any heroes.
*''Command Ability'': '''Stand Firm''': Pick one enemy unit that charges within 1", roll a dice. On 2+ they get D3 mortals.
*''Command Trait'': '''Mere Rainfall''': Your General rerolls saves against missile weapons.
*''Artefact'': '''Ironbark Talisman''': +1 for melee wound rolls.

In addition, you get Dispossed and Fyreslayers as allies.

The dwarven choice. Rainfall will probably just make your opponent target elsewhere (but you are forcing that choice upon them). Stand Firm is going to stop any small heroes from charging you.

===Oakenbrow===

*''Ability'': '''Our Roots Run Deep''': Subtract 2 from wounds taken by Treelords of all varieties when looking at the damage table.
*''Command Ability'': '''Yield To None''': Battleshock immunity wholly within 16" of a selected hero.
*''Command Trait'': '''Regal Old-growth''': +1 wound.
*''Artefact'': '''Dawnflask''': 6+ save against wounds and mortal wounds.

The Treelord choice. With all the point reductions to Treelords this sounds like a good idea, but with how terrible the bonuses are, you should probably just use a better Grove. The ability is going to keep Durthu's sword at full strength for twice as long (Up to 4 wounds taken, instead of 2) - but sadly the trait doesn't stack here.

===Winterleaf===

*''Ability'': '''Winter's Bite''': For ''all your units'', unmodified melee hit rolls of 6 score 2 hits.
*''Command Ability'': '''Branch Blizzard''': Extra 12" shooting attack. Roll a dice for each model in target unit, each 6+ is one mortal.
*''Command Trait'': '''My Heart Is Ice''': Every melee wound inflicted on your general, roll a dice, on a 5+ the attacker gets one mortal.
*''Artefact'': '''Frozen Kernel''': Once per game at the start of the combat phase, 1 friendly WINTERLEAF unit wholly with 18" of the bearer can pile in and attack twice. It does the second pile in and attack right after the first time it attacks, and only if it is still within 3" of an enemy unit.

The obvious choice.
*The ability exploding sixes is super deadly. The math works out as more or less the same as +1 to hit. And this is ''across your whole army!''
*The general's feedback on 5+'s in melee can also be super deadly. Can also help keep your guy alive - on a straight Behemoth vs Behemoth fight, those 5+'s will weaken your opponents attacks as it drops down its damage table.
*Regardless of how you play it, the Kernel is always super deadly. But it needs a bit of finesse to ensure you pick the best moment to use it - given that you choose at the start of the phase when to use it, it's very easy to super power something that didn't need it. Make sure to use it before your general is killed too.
*The shooting attack isn't quite so super deadly as everything else, but who cares when you have everything else above. Mostly only of use against hordes and if you've got plenty of spare CPs (which you won't).
*If you're unsure what to take, unsure of how to play Sylvaneth and just want to throw everything into combat then just take Winterleaf. Simple. Super deadly.
*On 1000pt games, where you can only really squeeze in a single big guy, and you really want to take Drycha, then Winterleaf is still useful. Simply make Archie/Wraith/Wych your general. Sure, the Command Trait is wasted, but the Ability and Artefact are still really good.

==Warscrolls==
==={{color|#dda16f|Named Leaders}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Sylvaneth_Alarielle_ENG.pdf Alarielle the Everqueen]:''' (600pts). As expected from the next big over-the-top God model, Alarielle is downright terrifying. Specifics? Sure.
**The lady has a massive pool of 16 Wounds with a 3+ Save and yet she still rocks a 16" Flying Move stat.
**She can heal a Sylvaneth models around her for D3 each turn.
** She also has a strong throwing spear with massive 30" range and the beetle hits harder than anything else in the game. It's so damn strong it damages people standing nearby if it charges and has five damage 5(!) attacks. And her other weapon is basically the Massive Impaling Talon, but supercharged and with 4 attacks and any hit rolls of 6 score D3 mortal wounds.
**Like Nagash, Archaon and Morathi, she is not really something you compare to normal models. She's too powerful for that. She's simply something you try to survive.
**Three casts per turn. Use them to cast Malign Sorcery endless spells and consider giving her the Throne of Vines spell.
**She gets a one shot unblockable summon of a Treelord (regular), 3x Kurnoths, 20x Dryads, 10x Tree- or Spite-Revenants or, umm, a single Branchwych. This effectively dropping her cost by ~200 points, and you get to decide which unit to spend those ~200 points on during the game. Remember, you've probably already got your Dryad summoning covered by the Branchwraiths.
**Back down to 600 points (as per FAQ). If you think you can keep her alive, then she's now a good pick.
**Her spell Metamorphosis (7+), you roll as many dice as the casting roll, and each 4+ deals a mortal to a unit within 16". If that kills the enemy, then you can place a wood there.
**''2019 Differences: Talon no longer auto kills, instead dealing Mortal Wounds, and the spell Metamorphosis is more expensive. However, Battering Ram is now based on the model rather than a terrain piece, but only effects enemy units and Ghyran's Wrath can be used every time (for a CP).''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Drycha_Hamadreth_ENG.pdf Drycha Hamadreth]:''' (300pts). Drycha is back and more pissed off than ever.
**Now if an unmodified hit roll from Flitterfuries or Squirmlings is a 6, it's a mortal wound instead of going through the attack sequence.
**Flitterfuries are an 18" shooting attack with 10 attacks single damage, rend -1. Meanwhile Squirmlings are 2" melee attack, also with 10 attacks single damage, but not rend. At the start of each battle round, you can choose what mood she's in, and as a result one of these attack doubles to 20!
**In addition, her talons give another 6 attacks at damage 2, rend -2. This lady is a beast!
**She's also excessively fast with a 9" Move that is not weakened by her damage table.
**Her spell (6+) scores D3 damage to every unit within 10" based on a roll against the unit's bravery. This ends up being difficult to score damage against high bravery armies such as Death. This spell combos up with her relationship to Spite-Revenants though. The Spites lower enemy Bravery in order to power her damage-off-of-Bravery spell whereas she grants them better To Wound rolls.
**''2019 Differences: She's gone up from 280 points. For that you get both Flitterfuries and Squirmlings, which now have normal attack profiles instead of mortals, but the slendervines attack has gone. You get to choose her mood, instead of rolling, but it's effect isn't quite as good. The spell is simplified, both reducing its max damage, but making it more likely do damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/aos-warscroll-yltharis-guardians-en.pdf Ylthari]:''' (180pts, with Guardians) Shadespire Hero takes root in AOS.
**Requires you to bring Ylthari's Guardians along with.
**Similar to a Branchwych with a bit more melee power and is labelled a {{AOSKeyword|thornwych}}.
**Re-rolls wound rolls of 1.
**Her spell (6+) is a supercharged arcane bolt, giving you an average of 2 mortals per cast.
**Might be best leaving her for Shadespire. You're paying 20 points more for her and the Guardian's than you would for a Branchwych and 5 Tree Revenants and not really gaining much in return.
**Labelled Oakenbow, which as per FAQ, means that if you take another glade, these guys do not benefit from glade bonus. Which makes her now even more useless than before.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

==={{color|#dda16f|Generic Leaders}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Branchwraith_ENG.pdf Branchwraith]:''' (80pts) Essential summoning support
**As a Hero she sports a very meh stat wheel with the exception of her above average movement speed (7"). Her melee will offer only token resistance to opponents, big surprise, she's a Wizard after all, but when in a wood, she gets -1 to hits made against her, which helps. Although you shouldn't really ever be getting her into combat, she should ideally spend her life hidden in woods, teleporting between them.
**That summoning though allows you to summon 10 Dryads ''every turn''. Game breaking? Well, not quite. Firstly you need to successfully cast and not get unbound; secondly said Dryads need placing in a wyldwood more than 9" from an enemy. You basically have to put a forest in your backfield and just use it to churn out dryads, then teleport them where you need them to go. You could be looking at 2-3 movement phases before they can charge anything. If you have any sense you will keep this crazy looking plant lady in your starting Wyldwood (making the lady harder to hit, plus raising her Save like normal cover) or behind your Wyldwood keeping her out of unbind range (30").
**Consider giving your wraith anything that bumps the spell cast (7+, 58.3% chance) to try and guarantee a whole 100pts of Dryads every turn. Take the Stave for an additional cast plus the Throne spell; cast throne (5+, 83.3% chance) then summon at 5+ (again, 83.3% chance). Turn two, another throne cast and you are down to needing 3+. Keep going and you're more or less guaranteed that cast, plus it'll be impossible to unbind. Plus in later turns also gives you the bonus of a cheeky bolt/shield/harmony cast. If you really don't want to use up that artefact slot then another option is taking a battalion and Gnarlroot - the chalice gives her 3 dice, discarding 1, giving you a 74.5% chance.
**Consider taking two Branchwraiths. Use the second one for verdant blessing wood summonings. If the Dryad summoning wraith dies, you have a spare one. Now you can afford to be a little riskier and put one in a wood near the front lines to get those new Dyrads into combat quicker, or get those woods out further. And if that's convinced you, then maybe you want to consider a third Branchwraith. Arm them with an array of Deepwood spells and you should always have something useful to cast, especially given turn 5 (or even 4) it might not be useful to summon more bodies that you won't get into combat. This is probably overboard.
**''2019 Differences: Just some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Branchwych_ENG.pdf Branchwych]:''' (80pts) Aggressive support wizard.
**Same meh stat wheel as the Branchwraith, but with slightly better melee.
**As long as she's taken at least one wound in damage, she gets 2 extra attacks on her scythe.
**Her spell Unleash Spites (5+) is a damaging pulse effecting all enemy units within 9". It works best against the more units that are in range - If there are only 1 or 2 target units in range, then arcane bolt will usually do more damage than the pulse, but it gets better against more units, of course. On average, you'll expect 1.11 mortal wounds per unit.
**In Skirmish, the pulse is extremely broken, as ''every'' model is a unit. So, get within range of the front line and suddenly every model is hit with rolling a ''minimum'' of 5 dice, giving mortal wounds on sixes. Most of those models are single wound chaff, because skirmish doesn't allow you to take any of the good stuff, and you've got a game winning massacre. Sadly that pulse is the only thing we've got going for ourselves in Skirmish.
**The oft whispered about ''Branchwych Bomb'' involves sticking her on a Balewind Vortex inside a mid to frontline wood, giving her Deadly Harvest, Spellsinger, and using whatever casting bonuses you can get hold of. Then sit back and cast both spells, spamming mortals out in 21" and 15" bubbles. In practice you're tying up far too much to get this off reliably. Just don't run crying when your 5 wound guy gets wiped out pronto after one round of this. Clearly hilarious if you can get it to work.
***It's possible to invest even more into this strategy by adding an Umbral Spellportal, but even that doesn't make it worthwhile.
**Difficult to recommend her when you can get a spare Dryad summoning Branchwraith for the same cost, and give her Dwellers Below which isn't that much worse than Unleash Spites.
**''2019 Differences: scythe attacks bonus is better as it is now whilst damaged, instead of just that turn. Also some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spirit_of_Durthu_ENG.pdf Spirit of Durthu]:''' (300pts) This is <s> SPARTAAAAA</s> *ahem* supercharged Treelord.
**The Spirit of Durthu is an absolute damage monster, with extremely powerful shooting, terrifying melee and all the standard tricks of the vanilla Treelord.
**NOT a named character (and therefore not reduced to 0-1 in Matched Play, etc etc), but very expensive.
**A shooting attack that is basically the vanilla Treelord's Strangleroots on steroids, with higher range, more shots and higher damage per shot.
**His sword is just about as terrifying as it looks, with constant damage 6 so long as he stays in good health and 2 bonus attacks for being near a wood.
**You really need those big melee attacks to actually hit. So have consider having your Sylvaneth be from Ghyran, and give your Spirit of Durthu the Ghyrstrike Relic. 3 attacks (plus 2 if near a wyldwood), 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 6 damage. Holy good fuck.
**That damage table is a killer for him. Just two wounds and he goes from 6 to D6 damage. Do the math, and a block of Kurnoth's will output a lower higher end, but similar average output and degrade slower.
**He also adds 1 to the Bravery of friendly Sylvaneth.
**Now only 300 points since the FAQ. Maybe we'll start seeing him in lists again.
**''2019 Differences: Other than the stuff copied across from the Vanilla Treelord, he loses the damaging shooting supercharge and the ability to take wounds from others (not that either were used much). The bonus for being near a wood is a fixed 2 attacks instead of D3. So, no practical changes, but he has gone down from 380 points! Drycha and Durthu are almost level pegging, and make for a scary combo.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Treelord_Ancient_ENG.pdf Treelord Ancient]:''' (260pts). The swiss army knife Treelord
**If Durthu is a supercharged Treelord, then this is the slightly weaker but more useful version. He retains all the abilities and powers of the vanilla.
**Compare to a Vanilla Treelord, this guy has 1" less movement and 1 less attack on its Sweeping Blows. This doesn't seem like much, but the drop from 4 to 3 attacks is actually quite drastic. And what does this old fella get in return? An extra 3 to its Bravery, 18" range on its strangle roots, gains a command ability and becoming a freakin' wizard!
**His unique spell will do D3 damage to any enemy units on or around your woods. It's either a great deterrent to entering your woods or a great punishment if the opponent was dumb enough to actually do it.
**Once per battle he can unconditionally summon a new wood. This makes him an almost must take if you want a ''guaranteed'' second wood out on your first turn. Note this is once per game, not once per Ancient per game. Wholly within 18" is not that long a range, so if you're dropping turn one (before you've moved anything) you're not going to be using it for backline deep striking. However, If you teleport the Ancient to the wood, then next turn a 24" verdant blessing wood should give you all the range you need.
**Has a Command Ability that lets all the Sylvaneth around him reroll saves of 1s.
**He's got a lot of stuff going on. And now at 260 points maybe he's decent value, ''if'' you use everything he has to offer. Possibly works best in 1000pt lists where you've got less room other stuff.
**''2019 Differences: Other than the stuff copied across from the Vanilla Treelord, the wood summons is just once unconditionally instead of on a 4+, and some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Arch_Revenant_ENG.pdf Arch-Revenant]:''' (100pts) A newbie in the Sylvaneth ranks, added with the Looncurse battlebox.
**Is very fast, with a move of 12" and an ability to fly until she loses her mount (see below).
**Has the best non-Behemoth Hero melee in Sylvaneth (which doesn't say much): three 2" 3+/3+/-2 Dmg 2 attacks with her glave and a single 4+/3+ Dmg D3 attack with her mount.
**Slightly more survivable than a Branchwych, with five wounds, a 4+ save and an ability to sacrifice her mount to negate one allocated normal or mortal wound.
**Has a shield for either defensive or offensive use: at the start of the combat phase you may chose to use it to re-roll either save rolls or hit rolls of 1.
**Automatically buffs Kurnoth Hunters within 12" of herself, allowing them to re-roll hit rolls of 1 (both melee and shooting).
**Has a great command ability, adding 1 attack to each model's weapon in a unit within 9" (12" if the Arch-Revenant is your General). Combine this ability with alpha-striking unit of Tree-Revenants, or buff the hell out of Kurnoth Sword/Scythes - either way, it'll really hurt your opponent. Only works in the melee phase, so no buffing Kurnoth bows.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

==={{color|#dda16f|Battleline}}===
''Unconditional battleline''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Dryads_ENG.pdf Dryads]:''' (100/270pts, min 10, max 30) Your rank and file angry trees. These ladies are thankfully quite versatile and so can be used for a variety of situations.
**At first glance the ladies don't look like much, having only a 5+ Save and 2 attacks at 4+/4+/-/1. But they quickly become incredible as in units of 10+ they gain +1 Save, they hit on 3+ in your combat phase and they also have 2" range on their attacks, letting them fight in thick, two-row hedges. They also profit from being near a wood (-1 to hits against them), this is in addition to +1 save for being in cover. They are also very fast at 7". Keep them in big units as the Save-bonus and the 2" range heavily reward you for doing so.
**You can abuse their buffed save rolls by adding a unit of Sisters of the Thorn so you can reroll failed saves (which also deals a mortal on 6), so a large unit in a wood now has 3+ with reroll. For chaff, that's pretty damn good. However, those Sisters are going to cost you a fair bit in return.
**With Cities of Sigmar, Sisters of the Thorn's spell can only be used on WANDERERS unit, so Dryads cannot make use of it anymore.
**Remember to bring at least an additional 20 of these for the Branchwraith to summon. Unless you plan on playing super defensive, you won't need more than 30 spare.
**''2019 Differences: Wholly within measuring means no more daisy chains across the board. However, the large unit bonus is now 10 instead of 12. With all the other changes going on, pure Dryad spamming is probably no longer our strongest build.''

''Battleline in {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}}''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Tree_Revenants_ENG.pdf Tree-Revenants]:''' (80/420pts, min 5, max 30) Troops for tricksy players - not your mainline infantry.
**At first glance look disappointing, with basically the same stat-wheel as Dryads but lower Move. Now here's where it gets good....
**They have Rend in melee, unlike the Drayds.
**They have the coolest rerolls in the game, getting to reroll 1 dice per ''phase''. So this seems wonky in melee, doesn't it? Well, it also allows them to reroll the dice to run, one of the charge dice, the Battleshock dice... you get the picture.
**The standards allow them to pile in 6" which lets them get more attacks in.
**Most importantly, the musician allows them to use a better Spirit Paths rule, letting you take them off the table and then place them '''anywhere''' on the table more than 9" from enemy units.
**Leader either gets two additional attacks or +1 damage.
**Do ''not'' use these guys as as you would Dryads. They aren't particularly killy, they will die quickly if attacked first and their kit is way too expensive to use lots of them. They are for board control:
***Charge blockers. Save until your opponent gets ready to charge a very killy unit they want to get into combat asap, then teleport a wall of Revenants in front. Revenants will die instantly in the following combat, but it'll free up your more important units.
***Back line threatening. Your opponent can no longer keep those war machines, Jezzails and Poisoned Wind Mortars unguarded. Minimum-size squads of them also have just high enough of a damage output to cut all the aforementioned units to ribbons. But, you will say, the 9" charge after teleporting is improbable. No. Since they can reroll one of the charge dice, they are more likely to make that charge than to fail it. A good rule of thumb is to use 2 units of minimum size. That way, it's very likely at least one of them will make the charge and then they will more than likely deal enough damage to neuter the war machine you attacked.
***Objective taking. Without any Revenants, your opponent might decide to leave a captured objective unguarded. With Revenants either you can teleport and grab the objective or they'll be wise to this and need to keep a unit tied up - one big enough to survive a teleport and charge strike.
**''2019 Differences: Teleporting is now anywhere instead of near a wood or table edge. It's a small change, but a good one.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spite_Revenants_ENG.pdf Spite-Revenants]:''' (60/200pts, min 5, max 20) Less tricksy, more creepy Tree-Revenants.
**No rend and single damage, but 3 attacks at +3/+3 each!
**They also exist to muck around with enemy Bravery. They flat reduce the Bravery of enemies around them, which combos well with Drycha's unique spell. Plus they force them to reroll passed battleshock tests. Even Death armies can end up with some battleshock losses.
**1" range means it'll be tricky getting all 61 attacks of a 20 model unit fully into combat.
**Your glass cannon battleline: Hits really hard, dies really quickly. Use Dryads for staying power.
**200 points for 20 of these is the same as Dryads! Against bad save hordes these guys might be the superior option. Sadly, it'll hurt your wallet a lot more - £90 for 20 vs £31.25 for the same in Dryads (add in your own local currency multiplier).
**''2019 Differences: 10 points drop, the scenery rule is switched for the rerolling battleshock, and attacks are up from +4/+4 to +3/+3, that's a huge boost! Finally these are a valid battleline option. GW must really want people to start playing these guys.''

==={{color|#dda16f|Other Troops}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Greatswords_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Greatswords]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12) The ultimate wooden killing machine.
**Incredible. Each of these guys is basically a minor Hero at 5 Wounds and a 4+ Save.
**The sword tosses out 4 attacks at -1 Rend and damage 2. And deals an additional mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6.
**When melee attacking, if they don't need to move (other than 1" pile in), they can gain the ability to re-roll saves.
***Since the warscroll only says at the start of the charge phase but doesn't specify whose, they can technically charge and pile in normally in your charge phase and then use Tanglethorn Thicket in your opponent's if you went first.
**At the end of combat you deal mortal wounds on a 4+ for each model in your unit
**They also channel Command Abilities. When you use a Command ability, any unit wholly within 12" of a Kunroth is also counted as being in range of the casting hero.
**GW has switched the points for these up and down over the years. Down again slightly for 2020
**Consider pretending you're playing 40K and magnetise the arms for different weapon loadouts below. If you fix the weapons on one unit then you'll have enough shoulder pads spare to better magnetise a second unit. The Quiverbugs are trickier to magnetise. Sadly there are no official rules for using plasma cannons.
**These guys are crazy good now, especially if you take them in Winterleaf. Stick an Arch-Revenant next to a unit, send into something big, and watch it go **POOF**. Pop command ability for 10 attacks hitting on 3+, 5 attacks on 2+, reroll 1's to hit, with 6's causing mortal wounds AND extra attacks?! All wounding on 3's with their -1 rend and flat 2 damage (Bonus points for using the Frozen Kernel so they can do it again. Even Nagash will tremble in terror.)
**''2019 Differences: Other than the warscroll split, failed saves confusion has been fixed, some range changes, improvement to the end of combat damage. Plus swords get an extra mortal. Even stronger than before. With the mortal wounds buff, better than scythes against everything, though with 1" less range.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Scythes_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Scythes]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12)
**Same as above, but with longer weapon range of the scythes, which tosses out 3 attacks at Rend -2 and damage D3. The scythes do more damage against 2+ saves, break even against 3+ and the swords win against everything else. But that's before taking into account the mortal wounds on 6 the Swords deal out (which the scythes don't get).
**In general the swords are your better option (especially given how rare 2+ and even 3+ saves are in AoS).
**However, the scythes have 2" reach. You'll want this for units of 6 or more to get them all into combat or if you want to place a screen of Dryads (preferably on the edge of a woods) or Revenants in front and attack through them. Tricksier players will go for the scythes.
**''2019 Differences: Same as the swords variant, except for no new additional weapon damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Greatbows_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Greatbows]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12)
**Same as above, but now with ranged weapons.
**A stunning 30" range, two shots per model and D3 damage per shot, these guys are basically artillery.
**You also get the adorable Quiverlings who do the melee fighting for them, being very non-threatening, but remember, these guys are tough as nails and you can shoot into melee. Does a lot less damage overall than melee weapons, and you can only shoot during your turn (unlike melee, effectively halving the potential damage done per game), but that range means you won't be getting attacked back. How dare they! The Quiverlings are no longer the source of their melee damage! Somehow, the giant tree people have learned to punch things of their own accord now
**Take into account our woods block line of sight (so no camping in woods) and Look Out Sir means you should probably avoid sniping guarded heroes.
**Bows were the best option in original AOS, no longer so essential in AOS2.
**''2019 Differences: Same as the swords variant, except for no new additional weapon damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/aos-warscroll-yltharis-guardians-en.pdf Ylthari’s Guardians]:''' (Free with Ylthari) Shadespire Tree Revenants without the good stuff.
**Can only be taken along with Ylthari.
**Tree Revenants without a musician or banner, so you loose the pile in and teleport abilities.
**In return you get three different weapon profiles (sword, glaive, bow), which are upgrades on the Tree Revenants.
**Plus on a D6 3+ you get to attack first, which is going to make them a lot less fragile than standard Tree Revenants.
**You also lose the Tree Revs reroll any dice per phase, but you can reroll wounds of 1.
**Labelled {{AOSKeyword|tree revenant}}, but Ylthari isn't. As written means you can include them in Tree Revenant battalion requirements, even though you still have to bring along Ylthari who wouldn't then be in the battalion. Needs an FAQ to confirm.
**Rules as Written their Martial Memories ability will cause themselves and ANY other Tree-Revenant unit within 3" of enemy units to fight first, on a 3+, in the combat phase. This needs playtesting to see if it's worth the points, but in theory it sounds almost too good to be true. You'd bring Ylthari's Guardians to turn your decent Tree-Revenants into better than Dryad melee blenders. Yeah, that's gone as of the battletome. Now Martial Memories is the same as the ability on the Tree-Revenants.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos_skaeths_wild_hunt_en.pdf Skaeth’s Wild Hunt]:''' (120pts, min/max 5) Straight outa Beatsgrave
**5 unique models with ok melee (max damage of six wounds with all models) and a little bit of shooting (a single close range and single far range attack)
**One wound each, but the leader gets one extra. And the one of them is a Wizard.
**Might be easier to just think of these guys as a 120pt six wound wizard with a behemoth damage table. Remember, each model killed results in fewer attacks/abilities. Just make sure you remove the models you most care about last.
**Spell (CV 7), as long as the model lives, gives you +1 to wounds rolls on a nearby unit, which is neat. Especially given that's something not covered elsewhere in the faction. Sadly it's a fairly high casting value.
**They can still charge and shoot after running, not that you'll be charging them much.
**Unique and not a hero.
**Really, the +1 wounds spell to work alongside your other buffs is the reason you'll be taking these guys. In an either/or choice, the Arch Revenant is 20pts cheaper and better, and the wych/wraiths are 50% cheaper if you just want a wizard.
**Like Ylthari, labelled Oakenbow, which as per FAQ, means that if you take another glade, these guys do not benefit from the glade bonus. Which makes them now even more useless than before.

===Behemoths===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Treelord_ENG.pdf Treelord]:''' (180pts) ''The'' Walking Tree. (aka Groot)
**[[DISTRACTION CARNIFEX]] with appropriate stats to match.
**At the start of combat he can stomp and on a 4+ cause one enemy unit to fight at the end of combat.
**You get a single attack at rend -2, and on a 6 it goes from 1 damage to D6 mortal wounds.
**Instead of moving, if close to a wood, he can teleport to another wood, more than 9" from enemies. This is in addition to the single unit that can do the same using the allegiance ability. Deep Strike!
**And they can also shoot, which is decent, not much worse than a unit of Bow Kurnoths.
**It should be remembered that these guys class as monsters and carry all the baggage that comes with that (You know declining stats, Large model, everyone wants to shoot it. that sort of thing), its still a pretty kickass unit.
**Everything this guy can do, Durthu and the Ancient can do, and more. But you're paying appropriately for them.
**This guy rarely sees usage. He's not a bad choice, it's just Kurnoth's, at only 20 points more, are a better choice. And if you really want him, the Ancient and Durthu give you more.
**''2019 Differences: Stomp has changed from causing -1 to hits against, impale has been simplified. And down from 240 points!''

===Scenery===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Awakened_Wyldwood_ENG.pdf Awakened Wyldwood]:''' Trees everywhere.
**New models!
**An Awakened Wyldwood consists of 3-6 citadel woods arranged to form a circle. Everything inside is treated as woods.
**A Citadel wood is a single tree with a bit of base. They come in packs of three, which when formed into a circle are roughly the same size as the old dinner plate model.
**FAQ states you can use one old citadel wood model as one awakened wood terrain piece. Given that one old wood is roughly the same size of 3 new woods, you're at a disadvantage using them.
**Line of sight blockers, so no camping your shooters in woods.
**If a wizard casts a spell near a wood, then all nearby non-Sylvaneth get D3 mortals on a 5+.
**At the end of the charge phase, all nearby non-Sylvaneth get D3 mortals on a 6.
**Remember those damages hurt your allies and your ally in doubles games.
**All Treelords and one other unit per turn can teleport between two of these instead of moving.
**Branchwraiths, Branchwyches, Dryads and Durthu all gain bonuses for being near a wood.
**As per the allegiance ability, you can place one of these at the start of the game. The Acorn artefact and the Treelord Ancient can both unconditionally place one wood per game. The verdant blessing spell (6+) is known by all our wizards and can place a new wood per turn if successfully cast. Alarielle can set up a new wood after killing a unit with her spell (if there is room).
**Your first wood needs to be more than 6" from an objective, but none of the other wood placements have that restriction.
**Your opponent is going to want to place lots of scenery during setup and then spread out during the first turn in order to block our wood placements. A situation made worse by the increase in faction specific scenery. You could quite easily end up only get out the start wood and one more during an entire game. Getting first turn can help mitigate this.
**The new models will mean an end to tree-less bases, and they'll fit in your army storage box. However, it's yet to be seen how many of these you're going to need to bring along per game and whether they are as crucial as they were in previous additions. You could end up bringing along 8 packs of these, which still ends up being a significant upfront cost for the army and it's still a lot of extra plastic you're carting around between games.
**Note that the entire inside of the ring of woods is counted as part of the Awakened Wyldwood, which means you can't use a wildwood to surround another piece of scenery or objective.
**''2019 Differences: New models! No longer auto kills small guys after charge/runs, instead doing damage by just being close. Max footprint of a wood has shrunk by a third.''

==Battalions==

===Forest Folk===
'''''A Branchwraith and three units of Dryads''''' ''140pts (520pts min -> 1,030pts max)''

Units can retreat and then still charge that turn.

Great for controlling the flow of combat. Essentially the opposite of Household. Stops your tar pits getting locked into combat with something you didn't want to, usually due to them charging first. Alternatively, if done correctly, you can bypass combat screens - charge into the screen one turn, then the following turn, retreat further up the board and charge your real target. Ignore the Branchwraith here, she's just included to reduce the number of drops.

''2019 Differences: Replaces the old ability that lets you take the entire Battalion off the table and then redeploy them close to your Wyldwoods.''

===Free Spirits===

'''''A Spirit of Durthu and three units of Kurnoth Hunters''''' ''140pts (1,080pts min -> 2,880pts max)''

Always rolls a 6 for a run.

Nice. Running instead of charging allows you to tanglethorn for save rerolls when the enemy charges in the following turn. You'll be wanting Scythes because you'll need the range on your tiny pile in. Don't use it to try and deepstrike Durthu or the like if board placement has denied you getting out any woods, as you'll now have lone units who can no longer shoot or charge until the next turn vulnerable to counterattack.

If you are taking these units, then you probably are also want the cheapest battleline you can get hold of, which is 3x5 Spites - and if you're doing ''that'', then Outcasts is 40 points cheaper. Anyone wanting three artefacts, then this and Outcasts together would work.

''2019 Differences: Much simpler than the old ability where you move twice but has to be closer to some scenery''

===Household===

'''''A vanilla Treelord, a Branchwych and a unit of Tree-Revenants''''' ''100pts (440pts min -> 780pts max)''

Units locked in combat with the Household cannot retreat.

That's an amazing ability for controlling the board, sadly the unit choices aren't the best. However, consider a blob of 30 freely teleporting Tree Revenants with 6" pile ins (and a 60pt hoard discount) and you're going to lock down whatever threats ''you'' want to for multiple turns until they chew through or die. Use the woods to throw your Treelord followed by Branchwych bomb to lock down a different unit elsewhere. Now consider how much six boxes of Revenants is going to cost to do this. Yeah.

''2019 Differences: The old version also had +1 Bravery, but that's gone now.''

===Lords of the Clan===

'''''Two to four Treelord Ancients and one to three normal Treelords''''' ''60pts (760pts min -> 1640 max)''

During your shooting phase, every enemy within 6" of 2+ Treelords, gets D3 mortals on a 2+ roll.

At 60 points, this is a bargain given it's only 10 more than a command point, and If you really want lots of trees then this is a no brainer. Ability requires you teleport deep strike in pairs, but you won't get those mortals until ''your'' next turn after charging (assuming the whole pair stays alive). Having to take two Ancients is the tax here - most the Ancient's abilities don't double up, leaving your second Ancient mostly as a Treelord with a much lower damage output (however, you do get the additional spell plus the choice of which Ancient to use for its abilities).
Being forced to take in pairs is a good as the stomp becomes much more reliable (from 50% to 75%), with the chance you can stomp a second enemy.
For the most use out of this you want two pairs of Ancient+Vanilla, but that uses up almost half your points and all your behemoths slots in a 2000pt game. Two Ancients and one Vanilla is easier to build around, but that magnifies the Ancient tax and neuters the battalion ability.
For pure damage output and survivability, Dreadwooding a large block of Kurnoth's is mathematically the better choice. However, two pairs of stomping Trees are much more flexible.
In addition, taking LOTC enables you to take a mixed battleline (say, one each of Spites, TreeRevs and Dryads) instead of the usual block of Outcasts or Forest Folk - or take both if you really want the artefacts/CPs.

''2019 Differences: Old ability was only for one name Treelord, was a wider range, but less reliable.''

===Outcasts===

'''''Three units of Spite-Revenants''''' ''100pts (280pts min -> 700pts max)''

Any enemy unit that fails battleshock within (not wholly within!) 3" loses an additional D3 models.

Remember that Spites lower enemy bravery too.
If you want the cheapest possible battleline plus battalion, then this is the choice to take, for just 280pts total - just don't expect them to last long.

''2019 Differences: This used to be a damage pulse based on enemy bravery.''

===Wargrove===

'''''One Lords of the Clan, three Households, three Forest Folks, one Free Spirits and one Outcasts.''''' ''80pts (5,240pts min -> 11,010pts max)''

Our only remaining super battalion. Allows you to place '''two''' Wyldwoods at the start of the game instead of one. Still, way too big to use unless you're playing 6000 point games.

''2019 Differences: Unchanged from the old battletome.''

==Army Building==

===1000 pts===

Two SC boxes and a box of Revenants get you a solid core. Convert one of the <del>useless</del> Branchwyches into a Branchwraith by stealing her scythe and pet. You will want more Dryads if you do this so the Wraith actually gets to do her job.

* Grove: Winterleaf
* Treelord Ancient (General, Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* Branchwych (The Dwellers Below)
* 30 Dryads
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* Treelord

Total: 990 pts

You can also replace the Treelord with a unit of Kurnoth Hunters (give them the Greatswords).

To upgrade from that, get a bag of newly-undercosted Spite Revenants and a guaranteed second Wood:

* Grove: Winterleaf or Dreadwood
* Treelord Ancient (General, Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Drycha Hamadreth (Deadly Harvest or The Dwellers Below)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* 20 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Tree-Revenants
* Soulsnare Shackles

Total: 1000 pts

If you got the Looncurse set (or if you prefer), you can also do this:

* Grove: Winterleaf
* Treelord Ancient (Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Arch-Revenant (General)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 6 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatswords)

The Arch-Revenant can stay safe and buff the Hunters with her Command Ability thanks to Envoys of the Everqueen.

Alternatively, you can be a dick and bring a god to the table:

* Grove: Winterleaf or Dreadwood
* Alarielle (Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (General, Grove artefact, Throne of Vines)
* 20 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants

Total: 1000 pts

Can cut most of the Spite-Revenants for... something? Allied 3 Ishlaen guard? A Knight-Incantor? Open for suggestions, but if you do that, consider going groveless.

===2000 pts===

====Winterleaf starter List====
Two Wraiths (+spell reliability), Drycha (+regrowth), Hive, and blobs of Kurnoths with Arch Rev are a solid base for ''any'' list.
Winterleaf is a good pick as being very strong and the easiest-to-play grove.

If you played Sylvaneth before the recent changes, chances are you have a <del>forest</del> fair number of Dryads, Forest Folk puts them to good use:
* Grove: Winterleaf
* Battalion: Forest Folk
* Arch-Revenant (General, grove artefact)
* Drycha Hamadreth (Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (Spiritsong Stave, Throne of Vines)
* Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony)
* 30 Dryads
* 20 Dryads
* 10 Dryads
* 9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
* Spiteswarm Hive
*''Total: 1990 pts''

If you prefer less battleline (you'll most likely be getting +30-40 Dryads per game), then Outcasts gets you the cheapest battleline plus artefact. Simply swap Dryads and Forest Folk for:
* Battalion: Outcasts
* 5 Spite Revenants
* 5 Spite Revenants
* 5 Spite Revenants

This now leaves you with 440 points to play with. Possibilities include:
*6 Kurnoths and Skullroot spell?
*Durthu and 10 Dryads? And maybe switch to Harvestboon.
*3 Kurnoths, 5 Tree Revenants, +5 Spite Revenants to an existing block, and 10 Dryads?

====Dreadwood Teleportation====
Dreadwood lets you dodge a lot of mobility concerns that can occur with the new terrain rules - combined with up to +5 to charges and Envoys of the Everqueen, Kurnoth can deliver a punch wherever you want it.

* Grove: Dreadwood
* Battalion: Outcasts
* Arch-Revenant (General, grove artefact)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony)
* 30 Dryads
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
* 6 Kurnoth Hunters (Swords)
* Chronomatic Cogs
* Spiteswarm Hive
* Extra Command Point

Total: 1990 pts

==Allied Armies==

The problem with allies, is that they do not get the {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}}-Keyword. Our Forests can and will turn on our allies if they get too close. This massively reduces their mobility, weakens our board control and potentially makes us lose our models without the enemy having to do anything.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Stormcast Eternals|Stormcast Eternals]]:''' You don't particularly need stormcast. Their play style is too different from traditional Sylvaneth play and overall they don't synergise too well. Perhaps with the upcoming Stormcast Sacrosanct chamber, something might be available to use well with Sylvaneth, but as of now don't bother. Stormcasts are just too slow to keep up with us and allies can't make up for this with Deep Strikes. Prosecutors might be a better option than the infantry on foot, but the would-be woefully under supported, due to the lack of Stormcast Heroes. Additionally, they have worse shooting than our (costlier) options and again, do not benefit from Stormcast specific abilities or commands.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Wanderers|Wanderers]]:''' Okayish, and fluffy which is important, however as previously mentioned above, you only have 200/400pts to spare, which simply isn't enough to gain any meaningful army support from the Wanderers - ''although with the recent warscroll and point changes in the Cities of Sigmar release, maybe there is something to look at here.'' Wanderers suffer from much the same problems as Stormcast. Everything they can do, we can do better, with everything they need, we can't provide. 200-400 points are not all that much and spending these on a Unit of Glade Guard and a Hero gives us, again, worse shooting and we can only heal and not revive Models. This basically means that the many single-wound models are nearly worthless fodder. Sisters of any variation are simply too expensive to be a viable choice for us and don't benefit us. Wasted points, that we could use better for Hunters.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Idoneth Deepkin|Idoneth Deepkin]]:''' The fish guys have lots of cross-unit synergies, which are of no use here. Consider the Akhelian Guards (Ishlaen and Morrsarr). Compared to the Kurnoths, they are faster at 14' and can fly (but can't use wyldwood teleporting and need to stay way from them too), they pack more punch (but are much more fragile) and they are cheaper too.
**Alternately, consider running a Deepkin army with the "Alliance of Wood and Sea" Battalion, giving you all the benefits of the Deepkin tides at the cost of having only one forest (for better and worse) via the Treelord Ancient's Silent Communion ability.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Dispossessed|Dispossessed]]:''' (Only if general is {{AOSKeyword|IRONBARK}})

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Fyreslayers|Fyreslayers]]:''' (Only if general is {{AOSKeyword|IRONBARK}}): Surprisingly useful alliance despite not being common in the lore. The Fyreslayers bring a lot of Mortal Wounds to the table, especially if a Runefather or Runeson on Magmadroth is chosen. With Hearthguard Berserkers, bring a Fyerslayer hero along with them and they can eat Mortal Wounds for you, being able to resist them on a 4+.

==Buying Guide==

Sylvaneth is mixed in terms of unit price values. Some can be cheap, others horrendously expensive, but that's GW. A cliché recommendation would be the start collecting box. Sadly the Branchwych is of less use than she used to be.

Note that due to models coming from WFB, a box of Dryads has 16 models, so to get full use of them, you'll want two boxes giving you 3 dryad units plus 2 spare. Make these up as 3 Dryad Nymphs and 29 normal Dryads to give you full WYSIWYG flexibility of unit sizes. 5 boxes gets you a full usage with 80, which is probably enough unless you go full Dryad spam.

{{Age_of_Sigmar_Tactics}}

Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Sylvaneth

2020-10-10T00:41:16Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Why play Sylvaneth? */

{{Age of Sigmar Faction|Faction=Sylvaneth|Logo=Most Friendly Being In Sylvaneth.jpg|Alliance=Order|Motto=WALKING TREES I TELL YOU! WALKING TREES!}}

==Why play Sylvaneth?==
* You like trees, nature and/or gardening.
* You like being able to teleport around the battlefield.
* You watched the Marvel films and are a big fan of Groot.
* Your favorite scenes in the Lord of the Rings is the Ents attack on Isengard or the Huron wiping out an Orc army. (not that I blame you)
* Your a painter who loves varieties of colors.
* You like armies that straddle the line between elite and horde.

====Pros====
*New battletome for 2019 that replaces the four fixed one-drop army lists with a whole host of choices.
*We have a lot of new and glorious models, almost completely in plastic (just one finecast, which you ''will'' be needing... and even then you can kitbash one up from plastic models).
*Easily paintable chaff with Dryads. Which is useful as you'll be painting a lot of them.
*Almost everything we have is at least -1 Rend.
*We get around quickly. One of our Battleline moves 7". Other stuff can teleport. If you like mobility and board control, we are one of the best choices to date.
*Just look at Alarielle model. Her buffs and damage output are almost as awesome as she looks.
*Massive Board Control if you can get those woods out.
*Kurnoth Hunters. Even by heavy infantry standard in AoS, absolute damage monsters. They will do a lot of heavy lifting.
*Great, often colourful paint schemes. Whether you want your trees to be in full bloom, fiery autumn or paint them as a haunted ghastly forest, you have a lot of choices.
*Lorewise, we boast one of the leaders of an entire realm and two survivors from the World-That-Was (three if you count the Spirits of Durthu).
*I am Groot.

====Cons====
*We are very bad to transport. Seriously it's a pain with all these small bits and twigs. Even foam packaged boxes hurt us. You'll want magnets and a big metal box.
*Limited defense against Mortal Wounds - just a single artefact on 5+ and a glade Command Ability on 6+.
*Those Citadel Woods have been replaced with newer models, but you're still going to be requiring a few sets of them, which is still going to be a significant investment and still be a pain to transport. Just not quite as bad as before.
*A reputation for being no fun to play against due to overly defensive turtling. That should be mitigated now, but opinions die hard.
*Spite Revenant hordes are super expensive in terms of cash.
*Current terrain and terrain placement rules make it more difficult to add wildwoods to the table, hindering mobility and tactical planning.
*I am Groot.

==Rulebooks==
{{AOSRulebooks|tome=Sylvaneth (2019)|points=[https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/40ad8aeb.pdf Sylvaneth Errata]}}

==Allegiance Abilities==

===Battle Traits===
Armies with the {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} allegiance have the following abilities:

*'''Awakened Wyldwoods''': After territories have been determined but before armies are set up, set up ONE Awakened Wyldwood anywhere on the battlefield more than 1" from any other terrain feature, 1" from enemy territory, and more than 6" from any objectives. Soon in this article you will see why you can't really play Sylvaneth without them. ''2019 Differences: Distance changes.''

*'''Forest Spirits''': You can set up a {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit aside for every unit deployed on the field. In any of your movement phases, you can deploy it on the battlefield. Units must be set up wholly within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood and more than 9" from any enemy models. This is their move for that movement phase. Sylvaneth deep strike. Exploit it with Spirits of Durthu, melee Kurnoth Hunters, and their shared battalion, Free Spirits. [[Rocks fall, everyone dies|Trunks fall, everyone dies]]. ''2019 Differences: Distance changes.''

*'''Navigate Realmroots''': Instead of moving in the movement phase, ONE {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit wholly within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood can be moved to wholly within 6" of another, different, wood, and of course more than 9" from any enemy. Treelord varieties have the Spirit Walk Ability and can teleport in addition to this one unit. ''2019 Differences: This used to be usable for multiple units a turn and the rolling after has gone. Definite nerf, but also simpler to use.''

*'''Places of Power''': After territories are chosen but before armies are deployed, select one terrain feature (this could be an Awakened Wyldwood YOU deploy according to order of operations... might need an FAQ). Friendly Sylvaneth units wholly within 6" of said terrain feature do not take battleshock tests. Interesting buff, it lets you sort of pick a focal point of where you want to commit to battle, and then have your, say, 30 block of dryads get to ignore battleshock while holding up the enemy.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Command Traits}}===
A general of an army with a {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} allegiance can choose one Command Trait from the lists below (be advised that if you choose your army to be one of the Wargroves, you are forced to take a specific command trait instead of one of these):

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Aspects Of War}}'''
#'''Dread Harvester''': If you charged, you can reroll melee hit rolls.
#'''Gnarled Warrior''': Reroll saves of 1. ''This used to be ignore rend unless it's -2 or better.''
#'''Gift of Ghyran''': Your general heals 1 wound at the start of each of your hero phases. ''This used to bump to D3 if near a wood.''
#'''Lord of Spites''': Reroll all wound rolls of 1. ''This used to be reroll first failed hit roll. So, that's better now.''
#'''Warsinger''': +2 to any charge rolls made for friendly {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units that are wholly within 12" of your general. Good choice for turning a spirit path walk into a charge on the same turn; essential for any alpha strike lists. ''Used to be +1 and within 10" (but not wholly).''
#'''Wisdom of the Ancients''': All friendly {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units wholly within 12" of your general in the battleshock phase add 1 to their Bravery. Best near revenants, your most vulnerable to battleshock. ''Used to be within 10" (but not wholly).''

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Aspects Of Renewal}}'''

{{AOSKeyword|Wizards}} only
#'''Arcane Bounty''': General knows 1 extra Deepwood spell.
#'''Mystic Regrowth''': If General successfully cast a spell, then heal D3 wounds at end of hero phase.
#'''Voice Of Warding''': General can unbind one extra spell per turn.
#'''Glade Lore''': General gets +1 to casting rolls when wholly within 6" of a wood.
#'''Spellsinger''': General gets +6 range of all spells. Consider using the balewind vortex to double this. ''2019 changes: This used to be the silverwood circlet.''
#'''Radiant Spirit''': If affected by a spell/endless spell, roll a dice, on a 4+ ignore the effect. Note the correct usage of affect and effect.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Artefacts}}===

One {{AOSKeyword|hero}} in an army with a {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance and has chosen to take the {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance abilities, plus one {{AOSKeyword|hero}} for every battalion selected, can choose one Artefact from the lists below.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Weapons Of The Glades}}'''

These affect a single melee weapon belonging to the bearer
#'''Daith's Reaper''': Additional rend of 1. ''Used to be on 6 get -4 rend. Much more useful now.''
#'''Greenwood Gladius''': If the bearer charges, +2 attacks that turn.
#'''Autumns Ire''': Re-roll hits and wounds of 1 as long as the bearer is wounded.
#'''Winnowstaff''': Can re-roll all hits against enemies with Wounds of 1.
#'''Ancient Barkblade''': +1 damage.
#'''The Darkest Bough''': On an unmodified wound roll of 6, deals an additional D3 mortal wounds

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Boons Of The Everqueen}}'''
#'''The Oaken Armour''': Reroll saves of 1. ''Used to be +1 to save rolls.''
#'''Briarsheath''': -1 Hit penalty for anyone attacking the bearer.
#'''Glamourweave''': 5+ save-after-the-save (mortal wounds only). Great for a Spirit of Durthu tanking Wounds because he can use that to protect himself, and also the only thing in the army that ignores mortal wounds. ''Used to be only 6+.''
#'''Lashvines''': For every non-negated wound from a melee weapon, on a 6 from a D6, the attacker takes 1 mortal wound.
#'''Silken Snares''': Ignore rend of -1 from enemies.
#'''Nightbloom Garland''': Unit is invisible to enemy units more than 12" away.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Verdant Treasures}}'''

#'''Seed of Rebirth''': The first time you lose your last wound roll a D6. On 2+ they come back to life with D3 wounds. Obviously best for a Branchwych/wraith, as a monster with D3 Wounds might as well be dead again. Especially useful on a Branchwych, as if she dies and comes back, she still counts as having taken wounds for the purposes of her bonus. ''Used to not require the dice roll.''
#'''Wraithstone''': Subtract 1 from the Bravery of enemy units within 10" in the Battleshock Phase. Combine with Spite-Revenants for best results.
#'''Everdew Vial''': +2 to run and charge rolls.
#'''Lifewreath''': Roll a dice in hero phase, on 3+ all {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} units wholly within 10" heal +D3 wounds.
#'''Crown Of Fell Bowers''': Pick an enemy within 6" at the start of the combat phase. All friendly {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} can re-roll all wound rolls against them for that phase.
#'''Etherblossom''': Bearer can fly. Durthu will love this.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Relics Of Nature}}'''

{{AOSKeyword|Wizards}} only.
#'''Acorn of the Ages''': Set up a Wyldwood wholly within 12", one-use only. The old favourite artefact of the one drop armies. You can simply throw a forest-shaped wrench into enemy charge lanes, you can let an isolated Hero summon their own reinforcement spawn point, you can make some cover to make a stand. ''This used to be within 5" (not wholly).''
#'''Spiritsong Stave''': Additional spell cast per turn. Amazing!
#'''The Vesperal Gem''': Once per turn, automatically succeed a Deepwood spell roll, which cannot be unbound. Sounds great.... but, then roll a dice, on a 1 you get D3 mortals. Ouchy. Good thing you have healing out the ass. Amazing relic because while you NEED magic, you don't have a lot of multi spell casters OR casting bonuses. Very solid choice. Note, Verdant Blessing is not part of Deepwood, so no autotree spamming.
#'''Luneth's Lamp''': +2 unbinding/dispelling rolls for endless spells.
#'''Hagbane Spite''': If you successfully unbind a spell, the caster gets 1 mortal.
#'''Wychwood Glaive''': Pick a melee weapon, it gets +2 damage against wizards.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Spell Lore}}===

All {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} {{AOSKeyword|wizard}}s know Verdant Blessing, plus they can take a spell from the Deepwood Spell Lore.

'''Verdant Blessing''' (6+): Casting value 6. Sets up an Awakened Wyldwood wholly within 24". As useful as the Wyldwoods are to you, this spell is pretty good. ''This used to be 18", part of the Deepwood list, and was more or less auto include''.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Deepwood Spell Lore}}'''

Every '''WIZARD''' in an army with a {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance and has chosen to take the {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance abilities can choose one of the following Spells:
#'''Throne of Vines''' (5+): Caster gets +2 to cast, but only as long as you don't move. <s>Amazing</s> MUST TAKE for Allarielle and her three casts per turn, which allows her to summon woods on a 4+ and buff her Metamorphosis! Also a must take on a Branchwraith with stave to help her get the Dryads out more consistently. Note that RAW, this effect stacks! Take on a non moving multi caster and by mid game you won't be able to fail a cast and there will be no way to unbind you. ''This used to be +D3 to cast and unbind.''
#'''Regrowth''' (5+): Casting value 5. Heal D6 Wounds to a friendly, visible {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} unit wholly within 18". TAKE IT. I don't care about your strategy, take it. Alarielle? Take it. Treelord Ancient? Take it. Drycha? Take it unless you want a suicide bomb. ''Used to also heal D3 on non-sylvaneth.''
#'''The Dwellers Below''' (7+): Pick a unit within 10", roll a D6 for every model in the unit, every 6 deals a Mortal Wound. Basically Vermintide/New Treason of Tzeentch. It's good, with a potentially gigantic damage output, but unless used against units of 20+, Arcane Bolt will probably do more.
#'''Deadly Harvest''' (6+): Each enemy unit within 3" gets D3 mortals. Nice when you're stuck in melee, but only really good in combination with the Spellsinger command trait. Also, remember that it gets better against multiple small units, but worse against horde armies - essentially the opposite of Dwellers below. ''This used to be call The Reaping.''
#'''Verdurous Harmony''' (7+): A unit wholly within 18" regains 1 slain model (or D3 for Dryads, Tree/Spite Revs). Amazing spell, just can be a little tricky to consistently cast without bonuses. 'New spell! Is a variant of an old wargrove spell.''
#'''Treesong''' (7+): For one enemy unit within 16" and 6" of a wood, you get to re-roll melee hit and wound rolls of 1 against them. What? Very situational and high casting value. Avoid. ''Completely rewritten, used to move a wood 2D6.''

==={{color|#01bbe3|Endless Spells}}===

Note that unlike the some of the [[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Malign Sorcery|generic]] endless spells, the Sylvaneth spells can't be used by your opponent against you (other than moving them out of harms way).

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Gladewyrm_ENG.pdf Gladewyrm]''' (30pts, CV 7, predatory 8"): Ancient protectors of the <s>[[Dune|spice]]</s> realmroots.
**Does D3 mortal wounds to non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units within 1" and heals D3 wounds to {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units wholly within 6" of where it ends up.
**Pretty good for the cost. For best effect, lob it in the middle of any combat not involving your battleline.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Vengeful_Skullroot_ENG.pdf Vengeful Skullroot]''' (40pts, CV 6, predatory 8"): Spooky tree
**Adds D3 to fleeing non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} models that fail battleshock tests within 3".
**Also does D3 mortal wounds to non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units it passes across, boosted to D6 if said units are within 3" of an {{AOSKeyword|AWAKENED WYLDWOOD}}.
**If you can get that D6 off, then this is great. Given the myriad ways of avoiding battleshock, and that enemies avoid woods where possible, you might find better use out of the slightly cheaper Gladewyrm.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spiteswarm_Hive_ENG.pdf Spiteswarm Hive]''' (50pts, CV 7): More of Drycha's little gribbles.
**Lets ''you'' (and only you) choose one of the following effects in ''every'' hero phase (including your opponents) each turn it's around: Roll a dice for each {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit wholly within 8", on a 2+ ''either'' add 3" to normal moves and charge moves ''or'' roll re-roll saves of 1.
**Great spell, however be careful when using the move bonus that your models don't get out of range too quickly.
**Best case is to place it halfway between you and an enemy, use the move bonus to get into combat, then use the save bonus during your opponents turn (assuming you survive the first round of combat).
**The small base size helps to stop it getting in the way of movement, assuming you point the gribbles out of the way.

==Glades==
Every Sylvaneth army gets to optionally belong to a glade ''for free'', which gives you an extra ability, command ability, fixes your General's command trait (you cannot choose from the Allegiance Abilities lists) and fixes your first artefact.

The Core FAQ clarifies that if you take Alarielle/Drycha as your general and a Glade, you don't get the Glade's Command Trait.

''2019 Differences: These are named after the Wargroves from the old Battletome, but they're very different. Instead of being battalions, which restrict what units you take, they force you into a set of abilities/artefacts.''

===Dreadwood===

*''Ability'': '''Malicious Tormentors''': Spite Revs reroll hits of 1.
*''Command Ability'': '''Sinister Ambush''': Once per turn, take a unit within 18" of a Hero and replace them anywhere on the battlefield, >9" of enemy units.
*''Command Trait'': '''Paragon Of Terror''': Enemy units reroll successful battleshock tests when within 6" of your general.
*''Artefact'': '''Jewel Of Withering''': -1 to melee wound rolls attacking the bearer.

The spooky choice. Gives a reason to use lots of Spite-Revenants. The battleshock reroll jells nicely with the Spite's -1 bravery buff, and hit rerolls on top of their 3+ to hit should make them terrifying. The teleporting is only good for deep striking a single unit, but combine with wyldwood teleporting and you can also throw over a bunch of Treelords and a big unit of Dryads at the same time.

===Gnarlroot===

*''Ability'': '''Shield The Arcane''': Units reroll hits of 1 when within 12" of friendly Gnarlroot Wizards.
*''Command Ability'': '''The Earth Defends''': One unit within 12" of a hero negates wounds or mortal wounds on 6+ for that combat phase.
*''Command Trait'': '''Nurtured By Magic''': Once per turn, if your general successfully casts a spell, a unit wholly within 18" heals D3 wounds.
*''Artefact'': '''Chalice Of Nectar''': Roll 3 dice when casting or unbinding and discard one of your choice.

The magicy life choice.
*The ability to reroll 1s (for free) overlaps with the Arch-Revenant, so reasonable chance you already have that covered. But might be an excuse to drop Archie, freeing up 100 sweet points, or use both to further extend across your army (remember, Archie isn't a wizard).
*Command ability is best left for emergency damage limitation on a crucial unit that somehow got into melee, unless you're really good at rolling sixes and have lots of spare CPs.
*The Chalice, which means the bearer well may never fail a cast, sounds awesome at first glance, but it won't make you into a top-tier spellcaster. Your best wizard, Alarielle can't take artefacts (neither can Drycha), so that leaves a you with a Wraith, Wych or Ancient. With your artefact slot taken, the only way to boost your number of casts is to use the the Balewind Vortex on the edge of a wood with the Wraith or Wych, essentially giving you a branchwych bomb (see Branchwych section) or supercharging your Dryad summoner and making them a big target. Safest option is to use it by itself on your Wraith (hidden deep in a wood) to 'almost' guarantee those Dryad summons.
**Vesperal Gem (which guarantees the cast, but with a small chance of mortals) is roughly equivalent to the Chalice without tying you to a glade. This can then be supplemented with Spellsinger (+6 range, which you can double by using the balewind vortex), or Winterleaf/Harvestboon/Dreadwood if you're taking a battalion.
*The trait, whilst great at keeping stuff alive, is limited the same way as the Chalice - Wych, Wraith or Ancient only. Great for keeping an Ancient alive and keeping the damage table topped up. Wraith is less than ideal as you ideally want her away from the action.

===Heartwood===

*''Ability'': '''Courage for Kurnoth''': +1 Bravery wholly within 12" of heroes.
*''Command Ability'': '''Lord of the Hunt''': [[Markerlight|Reroll melee hit and wound rolls of 1 against 1 enemy unit within 12" of a hero]].
*''Command Trait'': '''Legacy of Valour''': If the general is slain, do D3 mortal wounds to an enemy unit within 1" on a 2+. On a 6, do D6 instead.
*''Artefact'': '''Horn of the Consort''': Reroll hits for Kurnoth Hunters wholly within 12".

The reliability choice. The CA overlaps with the Artefact as is a better version of the free one you get with Arch Revenant (now you get wound rolls too). Trait is an added bonus for any hero you ''expect'' to die on in melee somewhere - again, Durthu comes to mind. Those mortals could quite easily finish of that unit he just couldn't quite shift. Bravery boost is nothing to be sniffed at. Put the artefact on the Arch Revenant and have her babysit some Bows (with her +1 attacks and rerolls of 1), then as the battle shifts to meleem, run 18" (that plus two lots of 12" range is 42") to the frontlines to boost your Swords and Scythes. Or throw on a Wych near the bows and put Archie at the front to benefit from both reroll abilities.

===Harvestboon===

*''Ability'': '''Vibrant Surge''': Reroll melee hits of 1 after charging that turn.
*''Command Ability'': '''Fertile Ground''': A unit within 12" of the General gets +1 attacks to all melee weapons.
*''Command Trait'': '''Seek New Fruit''': After attacking, your General can move 6", ending more than 3" from enemy units.
*''Artefact'': '''The Silent Sickle''': One melee weapon of the bearer gets +1 attacks.

The Sparta General choice.
*To make decent use of the Command Trait, you're going to be taking Durthu (or maybe an Ancient on 1000pt games). Similarly, the Artefact is best used on Durthu (or Ancient).
*The Command Ability and Ability are both more-or-less covered with the Arch-Revenant. Either use this as a replacement for the Archie, or load both Command Abilities onto a single unit (assuming you've been holding back the CPs) for +2. Use these on your Kurnoths or your already powered up Durthu. Damn.

===Ironbark===

*''Ability'': '''Stubborn And Taciturn ''': Reroll battleshock tests when wholly within 12" of any heroes.
*''Command Ability'': '''Stand Firm''': Pick one enemy unit that charges within 1", roll a dice. On 2+ they get D3 mortals.
*''Command Trait'': '''Mere Rainfall''': Your General rerolls saves against missile weapons.
*''Artefact'': '''Ironbark Talisman''': +1 for melee wound rolls.

In addition, you get Dispossed and Fyreslayers as allies.

The dwarven choice. Rainfall will probably just make your opponent target elsewhere (but you are forcing that choice upon them). Stand Firm is going to stop any small heroes from charging you.

===Oakenbrow===

*''Ability'': '''Our Roots Run Deep''': Subtract 2 from wounds taken by Treelords of all varieties when looking at the damage table.
*''Command Ability'': '''Yield To None''': Battleshock immunity wholly within 16" of a selected hero.
*''Command Trait'': '''Regal Old-growth''': +1 wound.
*''Artefact'': '''Dawnflask''': 6+ save against wounds and mortal wounds.

The Treelord choice. With all the point reductions to Treelords this sounds like a good idea, but with how terrible the bonuses are, you should probably just use a better Grove. The ability is going to keep Durthu's sword at full strength for twice as long (Up to 4 wounds taken, instead of 2) - but sadly the trait doesn't stack here.

===Winterleaf===

*''Ability'': '''Winter's Bite''': For ''all your units'', unmodified melee hit rolls of 6 score 2 hits.
*''Command Ability'': '''Branch Blizzard''': Extra 12" shooting attack. Roll a dice for each model in target unit, each 6+ is one mortal.
*''Command Trait'': '''My Heart Is Ice''': Every melee wound inflicted on your general, roll a dice, on a 5+ the attacker gets one mortal.
*''Artefact'': '''Frozen Kernel''': Once per game at the start of the combat phase, 1 friendly WINTERLEAF unit wholly with 18" of the bearer can pile in and attack twice. It does the second pile in and attack right after the first time it attacks, and only if it is still within 3" of an enemy unit.

The obvious choice.
*The ability exploding sixes is super deadly. The math works out as more or less the same as +1 to hit. And this is ''across your whole army!''
*The general's feedback on 5+'s in melee can also be super deadly. Can also help keep your guy alive - on a straight Behemoth vs Behemoth fight, those 5+'s will weaken your opponents attacks as it drops down its damage table.
*Regardless of how you play it, the Kernel is always super deadly. But it needs a bit of finesse to ensure you pick the best moment to use it - given that you choose at the start of the phase when to use it, it's very easy to super power something that didn't need it. Make sure to use it before your general is killed too.
*The shooting attack isn't quite so super deadly as everything else, but who cares when you have everything else above. Mostly only of use against hordes and if you've got plenty of spare CPs (which you won't).
*If you're unsure what to take, unsure of how to play Sylvaneth and just want to throw everything into combat then just take Winterleaf. Simple. Super deadly.
*On 1000pt games, where you can only really squeeze in a single big guy, and you really want to take Drycha, then Winterleaf is still useful. Simply make Archie/Wraith/Wych your general. Sure, the Command Trait is wasted, but the Ability and Artefact are still really good.

==Warscrolls==
==={{color|#dda16f|Named Leaders}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Sylvaneth_Alarielle_ENG.pdf Alarielle the Everqueen]:''' (600pts). As expected from the next big over-the-top God model, Alarielle is downright terrifying. Specifics? Sure.
**The lady has a massive pool of 16 Wounds with a 3+ Save and yet she still rocks a 16" Flying Move stat.
**She can heal a Sylvaneth models around her for D3 each turn.
** She also has a strong throwing spear with massive 30" range and the beetle hits harder than anything else in the game. It's so damn strong it damages people standing nearby if it charges and has five damage 5(!) attacks. And her other weapon is basically the Massive Impaling Talon, but supercharged and with 4 attacks and any hit rolls of 6 score D3 mortal wounds.
**Like Nagash, Archaon and Morathi, she is not really something you compare to normal models. She's too powerful for that. She's simply something you try to survive.
**Three casts per turn. Use them to cast Malign Sorcery endless spells and consider giving her the Throne of Vines spell.
**She gets a one shot unblockable summon of a Treelord (regular), 3x Kurnoths, 20x Dryads, 10x Tree- or Spite-Revenants or, umm, a single Branchwych. This effectively dropping her cost by ~200 points, and you get to decide which unit to spend those ~200 points on during the game. Remember, you've probably already got your Dryad summoning covered by the Branchwraiths.
**Back down to 600 points (as per FAQ). If you think you can keep her alive, then she's now a good pick.
**Her spell Metamorphosis (7+), you roll as many dice as the casting roll, and each 4+ deals a mortal to a unit within 16". If that kills the enemy, then you can place a wood there.
**''2019 Differences: Talon no longer auto kills, instead dealing Mortal Wounds, and the spell Metamorphosis is more expensive. However, Battering Ram is now based on the model rather than a terrain piece, but only effects enemy units and Ghyran's Wrath can be used every time (for a CP).''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Drycha_Hamadreth_ENG.pdf Drycha Hamadreth]:''' (300pts). Drycha is back and more pissed off than ever.
**Now if an unmodified hit roll from Flitterfuries or Squirmlings is a 6, it's a mortal wound instead of going through the attack sequence.
**Flitterfuries are an 18" shooting attack with 10 attacks single damage, rend -1. Meanwhile Squirmlings are 2" melee attack, also with 10 attacks single damage, but not rend. At the start of each battle round, you can choose what mood she's in, and as a result one of these attack doubles to 20!
**In addition, her talons give another 6 attacks at damage 2, rend -2. This lady is a beast!
**She's also excessively fast with a 9" Move that is not weakened by her damage table.
**Her spell (6+) scores D3 damage to every unit within 10" based on a roll against the unit's bravery. This ends up being difficult to score damage against high bravery armies such as Death. This spell combos up with her relationship to Spite-Revenants though. The Spites lower enemy Bravery in order to power her damage-off-of-Bravery spell whereas she grants them better To Wound rolls.
**''2019 Differences: She's gone up from 280 points. For that you get both Flitterfuries and Squirmlings, which now have normal attack profiles instead of mortals, but the slendervines attack has gone. You get to choose her mood, instead of rolling, but it's effect isn't quite as good. The spell is simplified, both reducing its max damage, but making it more likely do damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/aos-warscroll-yltharis-guardians-en.pdf Ylthari]:''' (180pts, with Guardians) Shadespire Hero takes root in AOS.
**Requires you to bring Ylthari's Guardians along with.
**Similar to a Branchwych with a bit more melee power and is labelled a {{AOSKeyword|thornwych}}.
**Re-rolls wound rolls of 1.
**Her spell (6+) is a supercharged arcane bolt, giving you an average of 2 mortals per cast.
**Might be best leaving her for Shadespire. You're paying 20 points more for her and the Guardian's than you would for a Branchwych and 5 Tree Revenants and not really gaining much in return.
**Labelled Oakenbow, which as per FAQ, means that if you take another glade, these guys do not benefit from glade bonus. Which makes her now even more useless than before.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

==={{color|#dda16f|Generic Leaders}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Branchwraith_ENG.pdf Branchwraith]:''' (80pts) Essential summoning support
**As a Hero she sports a very meh stat wheel with the exception of her above average movement speed (7"). Her melee will offer only token resistance to opponents, big surprise, she's a Wizard after all, but when in a wood, she gets -1 to hits made against her, which helps. Although you shouldn't really ever be getting her into combat, she should ideally spend her life hidden in woods, teleporting between them.
**That summoning though allows you to summon 10 Dryads ''every turn''. Game breaking? Well, not quite. Firstly you need to successfully cast and not get unbound; secondly said Dryads need placing in a wyldwood more than 9" from an enemy. You basically have to put a forest in your backfield and just use it to churn out dryads, then teleport them where you need them to go. You could be looking at 2-3 movement phases before they can charge anything. If you have any sense you will keep this crazy looking plant lady in your starting Wyldwood (making the lady harder to hit, plus raising her Save like normal cover) or behind your Wyldwood keeping her out of unbind range (30").
**Consider giving your wraith anything that bumps the spell cast (7+, 58.3% chance) to try and guarantee a whole 100pts of Dryads every turn. Take the Stave for an additional cast plus the Throne spell; cast throne (5+, 83.3% chance) then summon at 5+ (again, 83.3% chance). Turn two, another throne cast and you are down to needing 3+. Keep going and you're more or less guaranteed that cast, plus it'll be impossible to unbind. Plus in later turns also gives you the bonus of a cheeky bolt/shield/harmony cast. If you really don't want to use up that artefact slot then another option is taking a battalion and Gnarlroot - the chalice gives her 3 dice, discarding 1, giving you a 74.5% chance.
**Consider taking two Branchwraiths. Use the second one for verdant blessing wood summonings. If the Dryad summoning wraith dies, you have a spare one. Now you can afford to be a little riskier and put one in a wood near the front lines to get those new Dyrads into combat quicker, or get those woods out further. And if that's convinced you, then maybe you want to consider a third Branchwraith. Arm them with an array of Deepwood spells and you should always have something useful to cast, especially given turn 5 (or even 4) it might not be useful to summon more bodies that you won't get into combat. This is probably overboard.
**''2019 Differences: Just some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Branchwych_ENG.pdf Branchwych]:''' (80pts) Aggressive support wizard.
**Same meh stat wheel as the Branchwraith, but with slightly better melee.
**As long as she's taken at least one wound in damage, she gets 2 extra attacks on her scythe.
**Her spell Unleash Spites (5+) is a damaging pulse effecting all enemy units within 9". It works best against the more units that are in range - If there are only 1 or 2 target units in range, then arcane bolt will usually do more damage than the pulse, but it gets better against more units, of course. On average, you'll expect 1.11 mortal wounds per unit.
**In Skirmish, the pulse is extremely broken, as ''every'' model is a unit. So, get within range of the front line and suddenly every model is hit with rolling a ''minimum'' of 5 dice, giving mortal wounds on sixes. Most of those models are single wound chaff, because skirmish doesn't allow you to take any of the good stuff, and you've got a game winning massacre. Sadly that pulse is the only thing we've got going for ourselves in Skirmish.
**The oft whispered about ''Branchwych Bomb'' involves sticking her on a Balewind Vortex inside a mid to frontline wood, giving her Deadly Harvest, Spellsinger, and using whatever casting bonuses you can get hold of. Then sit back and cast both spells, spamming mortals out in 21" and 15" bubbles. In practice you're tying up far too much to get this off reliably. Just don't run crying when your 5 wound guy gets wiped out pronto after one round of this. Clearly hilarious if you can get it to work.
***It's possible to invest even more into this strategy by adding an Umbral Spellportal, but even that doesn't make it worthwhile.
**Difficult to recommend her when you can get a spare Dryad summoning Branchwraith for the same cost, and give her Dwellers Below which isn't that much worse than Unleash Spites.
**''2019 Differences: scythe attacks bonus is better as it is now whilst damaged, instead of just that turn. Also some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spirit_of_Durthu_ENG.pdf Spirit of Durthu]:''' (300pts) This is <s> SPARTAAAAA</s> *ahem* supercharged Treelord.
**The Spirit of Durthu is an absolute damage monster, with extremely powerful shooting, terrifying melee and all the standard tricks of the vanilla Treelord.
**NOT a named character (and therefore not reduced to 0-1 in Matched Play, etc etc), but very expensive.
**A shooting attack that is basically the vanilla Treelord's Strangleroots on steroids, with higher range, more shots and higher damage per shot.
**His sword is just about as terrifying as it looks, with constant damage 6 so long as he stays in good health and 2 bonus attacks for being near a wood.
**You really need those big melee attacks to actually hit. So have consider having your Sylvaneth be from Ghyran, and give your Spirit of Durthu the Ghyrstrike Relic. 3 attacks (plus 2 if near a wyldwood), 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 6 damage. Holy good fuck.
**That damage table is a killer for him. Just two wounds and he goes from 6 to D6 damage. Do the math, and a block of Kurnoth's will output a lower higher end, but similar average output and degrade slower.
**He also adds 1 to the Bravery of friendly Sylvaneth.
**Now only 300 points since the FAQ. Maybe we'll start seeing him in lists again.
**''2019 Differences: Other than the stuff copied across from the Vanilla Treelord, he loses the damaging shooting supercharge and the ability to take wounds from others (not that either were used much). The bonus for being near a wood is a fixed 2 attacks instead of D3. So, no practical changes, but he has gone down from 380 points! Drycha and Durthu are almost level pegging, and make for a scary combo.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Treelord_Ancient_ENG.pdf Treelord Ancient]:''' (260pts). The swiss army knife Treelord
**If Durthu is a supercharged Treelord, then this is the slightly weaker but more useful version. He retains all the abilities and powers of the vanilla.
**Compare to a Vanilla Treelord, this guy has 1" less movement and 1 less attack on its Sweeping Blows. This doesn't seem like much, but the drop from 4 to 3 attacks is actually quite drastic. And what does this old fella get in return? An extra 3 to its Bravery, 18" range on its strangle roots, gains a command ability and becoming a freakin' wizard!
**His unique spell will do D3 damage to any enemy units on or around your woods. It's either a great deterrent to entering your woods or a great punishment if the opponent was dumb enough to actually do it.
**Once per battle he can unconditionally summon a new wood. This makes him an almost must take if you want a ''guaranteed'' second wood out on your first turn. Note this is once per game, not once per Ancient per game. Wholly within 18" is not that long a range, so if you're dropping turn one (before you've moved anything) you're not going to be using it for backline deep striking. However, If you teleport the Ancient to the wood, then next turn a 24" verdant blessing wood should give you all the range you need.
**Has a Command Ability that lets all the Sylvaneth around him reroll saves of 1s.
**He's got a lot of stuff going on. And now at 260 points maybe he's decent value, ''if'' you use everything he has to offer. Possibly works best in 1000pt lists where you've got less room other stuff.
**''2019 Differences: Other than the stuff copied across from the Vanilla Treelord, the wood summons is just once unconditionally instead of on a 4+, and some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Arch_Revenant_ENG.pdf Arch-Revenant]:''' (100pts) A newbie in the Sylvaneth ranks, added with the Looncurse battlebox.
**Is very fast, with a move of 12" and an ability to fly until she loses her mount (see below).
**Has the best non-Behemoth Hero melee in Sylvaneth (which doesn't say much): three 2" 3+/3+/-2 Dmg 2 attacks with her glave and a single 4+/3+ Dmg D3 attack with her mount.
**Slightly more survivable than a Branchwych, with five wounds, a 4+ save and an ability to sacrifice her mount to negate one allocated normal or mortal wound.
**Has a shield for either defensive or offensive use: at the start of the combat phase you may chose to use it to re-roll either save rolls or hit rolls of 1.
**Automatically buffs Kurnoth Hunters within 12" of herself, allowing them to re-roll hit rolls of 1 (both melee and shooting).
**Has a great command ability, adding 1 attack to each model's weapon in a unit within 9" (12" if the Arch-Revenant is your General). Combine this ability with alpha-striking unit of Tree-Revenants, or buff the hell out of Kurnoth Sword/Scythes - either way, it'll really hurt your opponent. Only works in the melee phase, so no buffing Kurnoth bows.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

==={{color|#dda16f|Battleline}}===
''Unconditional battleline''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Dryads_ENG.pdf Dryads]:''' (100/270pts, min 10, max 30) Your rank and file angry trees. These ladies are thankfully quite versatile and so can be used for a variety of situations.
**At first glance the ladies don't look like much, having only a 5+ Save and 2 attacks at 4+/4+/-/1. But they quickly become incredible as in units of 10+ they gain +1 Save, they hit on 3+ in your combat phase and they also have 2" range on their attacks, letting them fight in thick, two-row hedges. They also profit from being near a wood (-1 to hits against them), this is in addition to +1 save for being in cover. They are also very fast at 7". Keep them in big units as the Save-bonus and the 2" range heavily reward you for doing so.
**You can abuse their buffed save rolls by adding a unit of Sisters of the Thorn so you can reroll failed saves (which also deals a mortal on 6), so a large unit in a wood now has 3+ with reroll. For chaff, that's pretty damn good. However, those Sisters are going to cost you a fair bit in return.
**With Cities of Sigmar, Sisters of the Thorn's spell can only be used on WANDERERS unit, so Dryads cannot make use of it anymore.
**Remember to bring at least an additional 20 of these for the Branchwraith to summon. Unless you plan on playing super defensive, you won't need more than 30 spare.
**''2019 Differences: Wholly within measuring means no more daisy chains across the board. However, the large unit bonus is now 10 instead of 12. With all the other changes going on, pure Dryad spamming is probably no longer our strongest build.''

''Battleline in {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}}''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Tree_Revenants_ENG.pdf Tree-Revenants]:''' (80/420pts, min 5, max 30) Troops for tricksy players - not your mainline infantry.
**At first glance look disappointing, with basically the same stat-wheel as Dryads but lower Move. Now here's where it gets good....
**They have Rend in melee, unlike the Drayds.
**They have the coolest rerolls in the game, getting to reroll 1 dice per ''phase''. So this seems wonky in melee, doesn't it? Well, it also allows them to reroll the dice to run, one of the charge dice, the Battleshock dice... you get the picture.
**The standards allow them to pile in 6" which lets them get more attacks in.
**Most importantly, the musician allows them to use a better Spirit Paths rule, letting you take them off the table and then place them '''anywhere''' on the table more than 9" from enemy units.
**Leader either gets two additional attacks or +1 damage.
**Do ''not'' use these guys as as you would Dryads. They aren't particularly killy, they will die quickly if attacked first and their kit is way too expensive to use lots of them. They are for board control:
***Charge blockers. Save until your opponent gets ready to charge a very killy unit they want to get into combat asap, then teleport a wall of Revenants in front. Revenants will die instantly in the following combat, but it'll free up your more important units.
***Back line threatening. Your opponent can no longer keep those war machines, Jezzails and Poisoned Wind Mortars unguarded. Minimum-size squads of them also have just high enough of a damage output to cut all the aforementioned units to ribbons. But, you will say, the 9" charge after teleporting is improbable. No. Since they can reroll one of the charge dice, they are more likely to make that charge than to fail it. A good rule of thumb is to use 2 units of minimum size. That way, it's very likely at least one of them will make the charge and then they will more than likely deal enough damage to neuter the war machine you attacked.
***Objective taking. Without any Revenants, your opponent might decide to leave a captured objective unguarded. With Revenants either you can teleport and grab the objective or they'll be wise to this and need to keep a unit tied up - one big enough to survive a teleport and charge strike.
**''2019 Differences: Teleporting is now anywhere instead of near a wood or table edge. It's a small change, but a good one.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spite_Revenants_ENG.pdf Spite-Revenants]:''' (60/200pts, min 5, max 20) Less tricksy, more creepy Tree-Revenants.
**No rend and single damage, but 3 attacks at +3/+3 each!
**They also exist to muck around with enemy Bravery. They flat reduce the Bravery of enemies around them, which combos well with Drycha's unique spell. Plus they force them to reroll passed battleshock tests. Even Death armies can end up with some battleshock losses.
**1" range means it'll be tricky getting all 61 attacks of a 20 model unit fully into combat.
**Your glass cannon battleline: Hits really hard, dies really quickly. Use Dryads for staying power.
**200 points for 20 of these is the same as Dryads! Against bad save hordes these guys might be the superior option. Sadly, it'll hurt your wallet a lot more - £90 for 20 vs £31.25 for the same in Dryads (add in your own local currency multiplier).
**''2019 Differences: 10 points drop, the scenery rule is switched for the rerolling battleshock, and attacks are up from +4/+4 to +3/+3, that's a huge boost! Finally these are a valid battleline option. GW must really want people to start playing these guys.''

==={{color|#dda16f|Other Troops}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Greatswords_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Greatswords]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12) The ultimate wooden killing machine.
**Incredible. Each of these guys is basically a minor Hero at 5 Wounds and a 4+ Save.
**The sword tosses out 4 attacks at -1 Rend and damage 2. And deals an additional mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6.
**When melee attacking, if they don't need to move (other than 1" pile in), they can gain the ability to re-roll saves.
***Since the warscroll only says at the start of the charge phase but doesn't specify whose, they can technically charge and pile in normally in your charge phase and then use Tanglethorn Thicket in your opponent's if you went first.
**At the end of combat you deal mortal wounds on a 4+ for each model in your unit
**They also channel Command Abilities. When you use a Command ability, any unit wholly within 12" of a Kunroth is also counted as being in range of the casting hero.
**GW has switched the points for these up and down over the years. Down again slightly for 2020
**Consider pretending you're playing 40K and magnetise the arms for different weapon loadouts below. If you fix the weapons on one unit then you'll have enough shoulder pads spare to better magnetise a second unit. The Quiverbugs are trickier to magnetise. Sadly there are no official rules for using plasma cannons.
**These guys are crazy good now, especially if you take them in Winterleaf. Stick an Arch-Revenant next to a unit, send into something big, and watch it go **POOF**. Pop command ability for 10 attacks hitting on 3+, 5 attacks on 2+, reroll 1's to hit, with 6's causing mortal wounds AND extra attacks?! All wounding on 3's with their -1 rend and flat 2 damage (Bonus points for using the Frozen Kernel so they can do it again. Even Nagash will tremble in terror.)
**''2019 Differences: Other than the warscroll split, failed saves confusion has been fixed, some range changes, improvement to the end of combat damage. Plus swords get an extra mortal. Even stronger than before. With the mortal wounds buff, better than scythes against everything, though with 1" less range.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Scythes_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Scythes]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12)
**Same as above, but with longer weapon range of the scythes, which tosses out 3 attacks at Rend -2 and damage D3. The scythes do more damage against 2+ saves, break even against 3+ and the swords win against everything else. But that's before taking into account the mortal wounds on 6 the Swords deal out (which the scythes don't get).
**In general the swords are your better option (especially given how rare 2+ and even 3+ saves are in AoS).
**However, the scythes have 2" reach. You'll want this for units of 6 or more to get them all into combat or if you want to place a screen of Dryads (preferably on the edge of a woods) or Revenants in front and attack through them. Tricksier players will go for the scythes.
**''2019 Differences: Same as the swords variant, except for no new additional weapon damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Greatbows_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Greatbows]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12)
**Same as above, but now with ranged weapons.
**A stunning 30" range, two shots per model and D3 damage per shot, these guys are basically artillery.
**You also get the adorable Quiverlings who do the melee fighting for them, being very non-threatening, but remember, these guys are tough as nails and you can shoot into melee. Does a lot less damage overall than melee weapons, and you can only shoot during your turn (unlike melee, effectively halving the potential damage done per game), but that range means you won't be getting attacked back. How dare they! The Quiverlings are no longer the source of their melee damage! Somehow, the giant tree people have learned to punch things of their own accord now
**Take into account our woods block line of sight (so no camping in woods) and Look Out Sir means you should probably avoid sniping guarded heroes.
**Bows were the best option in original AOS, no longer so essential in AOS2.
**''2019 Differences: Same as the swords variant, except for no new additional weapon damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/aos-warscroll-yltharis-guardians-en.pdf Ylthari’s Guardians]:''' (Free with Ylthari) Shadespire Tree Revenants without the good stuff.
**Can only be taken along with Ylthari.
**Tree Revenants without a musician or banner, so you loose the pile in and teleport abilities.
**In return you get three different weapon profiles (sword, glaive, bow), which are upgrades on the Tree Revenants.
**Plus on a D6 3+ you get to attack first, which is going to make them a lot less fragile than standard Tree Revenants.
**You also lose the Tree Revs reroll any dice per phase, but you can reroll wounds of 1.
**Labelled {{AOSKeyword|tree revenant}}, but Ylthari isn't. As written means you can include them in Tree Revenant battalion requirements, even though you still have to bring along Ylthari who wouldn't then be in the battalion. Needs an FAQ to confirm.
**Rules as Written their Martial Memories ability will cause themselves and ANY other Tree-Revenant unit within 3" of enemy units to fight first, on a 3+, in the combat phase. This needs playtesting to see if it's worth the points, but in theory it sounds almost too good to be true. You'd bring Ylthari's Guardians to turn your decent Tree-Revenants into better than Dryad melee blenders. Yeah, that's gone as of the battletome. Now Martial Memories is the same as the ability on the Tree-Revenants.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos_skaeths_wild_hunt_en.pdf Skaeth’s Wild Hunt]:''' (120pts, min/max 5) Straight outa Beatsgrave
**5 unique models with ok melee (max damage of six wounds with all models) and a little bit of shooting (a single close range and single far range attack)
**One wound each, but the leader gets one extra. And the one of them is a Wizard.
**Might be easier to just think of these guys as a 120pt six wound wizard with a behemoth damage table. Remember, each model killed results in fewer attacks/abilities. Just make sure you remove the models you most care about last.
**Spell (CV 7), as long as the model lives, gives you +1 to wounds rolls on a nearby unit, which is neat. Especially given that's something not covered elsewhere in the faction. Sadly it's a fairly high casting value.
**They can still charge and shoot after running, not that you'll be charging them much.
**Unique and not a hero.
**Really, the +1 wounds spell to work alongside your other buffs is the reason you'll be taking these guys. In an either/or choice, the Arch Revenant is 20pts cheaper and better, and the wych/wraiths are 50% cheaper if you just want a wizard.
**Like Ylthari, labelled Oakenbow, which as per FAQ, means that if you take another glade, these guys do not benefit from the glade bonus. Which makes them now even more useless than before.

===Behemoths===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Treelord_ENG.pdf Treelord]:''' (180pts) ''The'' Walking Tree. (aka Groot)
**[[DISTRACTION CARNIFEX]] with appropriate stats to match.
**At the start of combat he can stomp and on a 4+ cause one enemy unit to fight at the end of combat.
**You get a single attack at rend -2, and on a 6 it goes from 1 damage to D6 mortal wounds.
**Instead of moving, if close to a wood, he can teleport to another wood, more than 9" from enemies. This is in addition to the single unit that can do the same using the allegiance ability. Deep Strike!
**And they can also shoot, which is decent, not much worse than a unit of Bow Kurnoths.
**It should be remembered that these guys class as monsters and carry all the baggage that comes with that (You know declining stats, Large model, everyone wants to shoot it. that sort of thing), its still a pretty kickass unit.
**Everything this guy can do, Durthu and the Ancient can do, and more. But you're paying appropriately for them.
**This guy rarely sees usage. He's not a bad choice, it's just Kurnoth's, at only 20 points more, are a better choice. And if you really want him, the Ancient and Durthu give you more.
**''2019 Differences: Stomp has changed from causing -1 to hits against, impale has been simplified. And down from 240 points!''

===Scenery===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Awakened_Wyldwood_ENG.pdf Awakened Wyldwood]:''' Trees everywhere.
**New models!
**An Awakened Wyldwood consists of 3-6 citadel woods arranged to form a circle. Everything inside is treated as woods.
**A Citadel wood is a single tree with a bit of base. They come in packs of three, which when formed into a circle are roughly the same size as the old dinner plate model.
**FAQ states you can use one old citadel wood model as one awakened wood terrain piece. Given that one old wood is roughly the same size of 3 new woods, you're at a disadvantage using them.
**Line of sight blockers, so no camping your shooters in woods.
**If a wizard casts a spell near a wood, then all nearby non-Sylvaneth get D3 mortals on a 5+.
**At the end of the charge phase, all nearby non-Sylvaneth get D3 mortals on a 6.
**Remember those damages hurt your allies and your ally in doubles games.
**All Treelords and one other unit per turn can teleport between two of these instead of moving.
**Branchwraiths, Branchwyches, Dryads and Durthu all gain bonuses for being near a wood.
**As per the allegiance ability, you can place one of these at the start of the game. The Acorn artefact and the Treelord Ancient can both unconditionally place one wood per game. The verdant blessing spell (6+) is known by all our wizards and can place a new wood per turn if successfully cast. Alarielle can set up a new wood after killing a unit with her spell (if there is room).
**Your first wood needs to be more than 6" from an objective, but none of the other wood placements have that restriction.
**Your opponent is going to want to place lots of scenery during setup and then spread out during the first turn in order to block our wood placements. A situation made worse by the increase in faction specific scenery. You could quite easily end up only get out the start wood and one more during an entire game. Getting first turn can help mitigate this.
**The new models will mean an end to tree-less bases, and they'll fit in your army storage box. However, it's yet to be seen how many of these you're going to need to bring along per game and whether they are as crucial as they were in previous additions. You could end up bringing along 8 packs of these, which still ends up being a significant upfront cost for the army and it's still a lot of extra plastic you're carting around between games.
**Note that the entire inside of the ring of woods is counted as part of the Awakened Wyldwood, which means you can't use a wildwood to surround another piece of scenery or objective.
**''2019 Differences: New models! No longer auto kills small guys after charge/runs, instead doing damage by just being close. Max footprint of a wood has shrunk by a third.''

==Battalions==

===Forest Folk===
'''''A Branchwraith and three units of Dryads''''' ''140pts (520pts min -> 1,030pts max)''

Units can retreat and then still charge that turn.

Great for controlling the flow of combat. Essentially the opposite of Household. Stops your tar pits getting locked into combat with something you didn't want to, usually due to them charging first. Alternatively, if done correctly, you can bypass combat screens - charge into the screen one turn, then the following turn, retreat further up the board and charge your real target. Ignore the Branchwraith here, she's just included to reduce the number of drops.

''2019 Differences: Replaces the old ability that lets you take the entire Battalion off the table and then redeploy them close to your Wyldwoods.''

===Free Spirits===

'''''A Spirit of Durthu and three units of Kurnoth Hunters''''' ''140pts (1,080pts min -> 2,880pts max)''

Always rolls a 6 for a run.

Nice. Running instead of charging allows you to tanglethorn for save rerolls when the enemy charges in the following turn. You'll be wanting Scythes because you'll need the range on your tiny pile in. Don't use it to try and deepstrike Durthu or the like if board placement has denied you getting out any woods, as you'll now have lone units who can no longer shoot or charge until the next turn vulnerable to counterattack.

If you are taking these units, then you probably are also want the cheapest battleline you can get hold of, which is 3x5 Spites - and if you're doing ''that'', then Outcasts is 40 points cheaper. Anyone wanting three artefacts, then this and Outcasts together would work.

''2019 Differences: Much simpler than the old ability where you move twice but has to be closer to some scenery''

===Household===

'''''A vanilla Treelord, a Branchwych and a unit of Tree-Revenants''''' ''100pts (440pts min -> 780pts max)''

Units locked in combat with the Household cannot retreat.

That's an amazing ability for controlling the board, sadly the unit choices aren't the best. However, consider a blob of 30 freely teleporting Tree Revenants with 6" pile ins (and a 60pt hoard discount) and you're going to lock down whatever threats ''you'' want to for multiple turns until they chew through or die. Use the woods to throw your Treelord followed by Branchwych bomb to lock down a different unit elsewhere. Now consider how much six boxes of Revenants is going to cost to do this. Yeah.

''2019 Differences: The old version also had +1 Bravery, but that's gone now.''

===Lords of the Clan===

'''''Two to four Treelord Ancients and one to three normal Treelords''''' ''60pts (760pts min -> 1640 max)''

During your shooting phase, every enemy within 6" of 2+ Treelords, gets D3 mortals on a 2+ roll.

At 60 points, this is a bargain given it's only 10 more than a command point, and If you really want lots of trees then this is a no brainer. Ability requires you teleport deep strike in pairs, but you won't get those mortals until ''your'' next turn after charging (assuming the whole pair stays alive). Having to take two Ancients is the tax here - most the Ancient's abilities don't double up, leaving your second Ancient mostly as a Treelord with a much lower damage output (however, you do get the additional spell plus the choice of which Ancient to use for its abilities).
Being forced to take in pairs is a good as the stomp becomes much more reliable (from 50% to 75%), with the chance you can stomp a second enemy.
For the most use out of this you want two pairs of Ancient+Vanilla, but that uses up almost half your points and all your behemoths slots in a 2000pt game. Two Ancients and one Vanilla is easier to build around, but that magnifies the Ancient tax and neuters the battalion ability.
For pure damage output and survivability, Dreadwooding a large block of Kurnoth's is mathematically the better choice. However, two pairs of stomping Trees are much more flexible.
In addition, taking LOTC enables you to take a mixed battleline (say, one each of Spites, TreeRevs and Dryads) instead of the usual block of Outcasts or Forest Folk - or take both if you really want the artefacts/CPs.

''2019 Differences: Old ability was only for one name Treelord, was a wider range, but less reliable.''

===Outcasts===

'''''Three units of Spite-Revenants''''' ''100pts (280pts min -> 700pts max)''

Any enemy unit that fails battleshock within (not wholly within!) 3" loses an additional D3 models.

Remember that Spites lower enemy bravery too.
If you want the cheapest possible battleline plus battalion, then this is the choice to take, for just 280pts total - just don't expect them to last long.

''2019 Differences: This used to be a damage pulse based on enemy bravery.''

===Wargrove===

'''''One Lords of the Clan, three Households, three Forest Folks, one Free Spirits and one Outcasts.''''' ''80pts (5,240pts min -> 11,010pts max)''

Our only remaining super battalion. Allows you to place '''two''' Wyldwoods at the start of the game instead of one. Still, way too big to use unless you're playing 6000 point games.

''2019 Differences: Unchanged from the old battletome.''

==Army Building==

===1000 pts===

Two SC boxes and a box of Revenants get you a solid core. Convert one of the <del>useless</del> Branchwyches into a Branchwraith by stealing her scythe and pet. You will want more Dryads if you do this so the Wraith actually gets to do her job.

* Grove: Winterleaf
* Treelord Ancient (General, Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* Branchwych (The Dwellers Below)
* 30 Dryads
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* Treelord

Total: 990 pts

You can also replace the Treelord with a unit of Kurnoth Hunters (give them the Greatswords).

To upgrade from that, get a bag of newly-undercosted Spite Revenants and a guaranteed second Wood:

* Grove: Winterleaf or Dreadwood
* Treelord Ancient (General, Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Drycha Hamadreth (Deadly Harvest or The Dwellers Below)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* 20 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Tree-Revenants
* Soulsnare Shackles

Total: 1000 pts

If you got the Looncurse set (or if you prefer), you can also do this:

* Grove: Winterleaf
* Treelord Ancient (Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Arch-Revenant (General)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 6 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatswords)

The Arch-Revenant can stay safe and buff the Hunters with her Command Ability thanks to Envoys of the Everqueen.

Alternatively, you can be a dick and bring a god to the table:

* Grove: Winterleaf or Dreadwood
* Alarielle (Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (General, Grove artefact, Throne of Vines)
* 20 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants

Total: 1000 pts

Can cut most of the Spite-Revenants for... something? Allied 3 Ishlaen guard? A Knight-Incantor? Open for suggestions, but if you do that, consider going groveless.

===2000 pts===

====Winterleaf starter List====
Two Wraiths (+spell reliability), Drycha (+regrowth), Hive, and blobs of Kurnoths with Arch Rev are a solid base for ''any'' list.
Winterleaf is a good pick as being very strong and the easiest-to-play grove.

If you played Sylvaneth before the recent changes, chances are you have a <del>forest</del> fair number of Dryads, Forest Folk puts them to good use:
* Grove: Winterleaf
* Battalion: Forest Folk
* Arch-Revenant (General, grove artefact)
* Drycha Hamadreth (Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (Spiritsong Stave, Throne of Vines)
* Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony)
* 30 Dryads
* 20 Dryads
* 10 Dryads
* 9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
* Spiteswarm Hive
*''Total: 1990 pts''

If you prefer less battleline (you'll most likely be getting +30-40 Dryads per game), then Outcasts gets you the cheapest battleline plus artefact. Simply swap Dryads and Forest Folk for:
* Battalion: Outcasts
* 5 Spite Revenants
* 5 Spite Revenants
* 5 Spite Revenants

This now leaves you with 440 points to play with. Possibilities include:
*6 Kurnoths and Skullroot spell?
*Durthu and 10 Dryads? And maybe switch to Harvestboon.
*3 Kurnoths, 5 Tree Revenants, +5 Spite Revenants to an existing block, and 10 Dryads?

====Dreadwood Teleportation====
Dreadwood lets you dodge a lot of mobility concerns that can occur with the new terrain rules - combined with up to +5 to charges and Envoys of the Everqueen, Kurnoth can deliver a punch wherever you want it.

* Grove: Dreadwood
* Battalion: Outcasts
* Arch-Revenant (General, grove artefact)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony)
* 30 Dryads
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
* 6 Kurnoth Hunters (Swords)
* Chronomatic Cogs
* Spiteswarm Hive
* Extra Command Point

Total: 1990 pts

==Allied Armies==

The problem with allies, is that they do not get the {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}}-Keyword. Our Forests can and will turn on our allies if they get too close. This massively reduces their mobility, weakens our board control and potentially makes us lose our models without the enemy having to do anything.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Stormcast Eternals|Stormcast Eternals]]:''' You don't particularly need stormcast. Their play style is too different from traditional Sylvaneth play and overall they don't synergise too well. Perhaps with the upcoming Stormcast Sacrosanct chamber, something might be available to use well with Sylvaneth, but as of now don't bother. Stormcasts are just too slow to keep up with us and allies can't make up for this with Deep Strikes. Prosecutors might be a better option than the infantry on foot, but the would-be woefully under supported, due to the lack of Stormcast Heroes. Additionally, they have worse shooting than our (costlier) options and again, do not benefit from Stormcast specific abilities or commands.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Wanderers|Wanderers]]:''' Okayish, and fluffy which is important, however as previously mentioned above, you only have 200/400pts to spare, which simply isn't enough to gain any meaningful army support from the Wanderers - ''although with the recent warscroll and point changes in the Cities of Sigmar release, maybe there is something to look at here.'' Wanderers suffer from much the same problems as Stormcast. Everything they can do, we can do better, with everything they need, we can't provide. 200-400 points are not all that much and spending these on a Unit of Glade Guard and a Hero gives us, again, worse shooting and we can only heal and not revive Models. This basically means that the many single-wound models are nearly worthless fodder. Sisters of any variation are simply too expensive to be a viable choice for us and don't benefit us. Wasted points, that we could use better for Hunters.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Idoneth Deepkin|Idoneth Deepkin]]:''' The fish guys have lots of cross-unit synergies, which are of no use here. Consider the Akhelian Guards (Ishlaen and Morrsarr). Compared to the Kurnoths, they are faster at 14' and can fly (but can't use wyldwood teleporting and need to stay way from them too), they pack more punch (but are much more fragile) and they are cheaper too.
**Alternately, consider running a Deepkin army with the "Alliance of Wood and Sea" Battalion, giving you all the benefits of the Deepkin tides at the cost of having only one forest (for better and worse) via the Treelord Ancient's Silent Communion ability.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Dispossessed|Dispossessed]]:''' (Only if general is {{AOSKeyword|IRONBARK}})

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Fyreslayers|Fyreslayers]]:''' (Only if general is {{AOSKeyword|IRONBARK}}): Surprisingly useful alliance despite not being common in the lore. The Fyreslayers bring a lot of Mortal Wounds to the table, especially if a Runefather or Runeson on Magmadroth is chosen. With Hearthguard Berserkers, bring a Fyerslayer hero along with them and they can eat Mortal Wounds for you, being able to resist them on a 4+.

==Buying Guide==

Sylvaneth is mixed in terms of unit price values. Some can be cheap, others horrendously expensive, but that's GW. A cliché recommendation would be the start collecting box. Sadly the Branchwych is of less use than she used to be.

Note that due to models coming from WFB, a box of Dryads has 16 models, so to get full use of them, you'll want two boxes giving you 3 dryad units plus 2 spare. Make these up as 3 Dryad Nymphs and 29 normal Dryads to give you full WYSIWYG flexibility of unit sizes. 5 boxes gets you a full usage with 80, which is probably enough unless you go full Dryad spam.

{{Age_of_Sigmar_Tactics}}

Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Sylvaneth

2020-10-10T00:41:02Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Why play Sylvaneth? */

{{Age of Sigmar Faction|Faction=Sylvaneth|Logo=Most Friendly Being In Sylvaneth.jpg|Alliance=Order|Motto=WALKING TREES I TELL YOU! WALKING TREES!}}

==Why play Sylvaneth?==
* You like trees, nature and/or gardening.
* You like being able to teleport around the battlefield.
* You watched the Marvel films and are a big fan of Groot.
* Your favorite scene in the Lord of the Rings is the Ents attack on Isengard or the Huron wiping out an Orc army. (not that I blame you)
* Your a painter who loves varieties of colors.
* You like armies that straddle the line between elite and horde.

====Pros====
*New battletome for 2019 that replaces the four fixed one-drop army lists with a whole host of choices.
*We have a lot of new and glorious models, almost completely in plastic (just one finecast, which you ''will'' be needing... and even then you can kitbash one up from plastic models).
*Easily paintable chaff with Dryads. Which is useful as you'll be painting a lot of them.
*Almost everything we have is at least -1 Rend.
*We get around quickly. One of our Battleline moves 7". Other stuff can teleport. If you like mobility and board control, we are one of the best choices to date.
*Just look at Alarielle model. Her buffs and damage output are almost as awesome as she looks.
*Massive Board Control if you can get those woods out.
*Kurnoth Hunters. Even by heavy infantry standard in AoS, absolute damage monsters. They will do a lot of heavy lifting.
*Great, often colourful paint schemes. Whether you want your trees to be in full bloom, fiery autumn or paint them as a haunted ghastly forest, you have a lot of choices.
*Lorewise, we boast one of the leaders of an entire realm and two survivors from the World-That-Was (three if you count the Spirits of Durthu).
*I am Groot.

====Cons====
*We are very bad to transport. Seriously it's a pain with all these small bits and twigs. Even foam packaged boxes hurt us. You'll want magnets and a big metal box.
*Limited defense against Mortal Wounds - just a single artefact on 5+ and a glade Command Ability on 6+.
*Those Citadel Woods have been replaced with newer models, but you're still going to be requiring a few sets of them, which is still going to be a significant investment and still be a pain to transport. Just not quite as bad as before.
*A reputation for being no fun to play against due to overly defensive turtling. That should be mitigated now, but opinions die hard.
*Spite Revenant hordes are super expensive in terms of cash.
*Current terrain and terrain placement rules make it more difficult to add wildwoods to the table, hindering mobility and tactical planning.
*I am Groot.

==Rulebooks==
{{AOSRulebooks|tome=Sylvaneth (2019)|points=[https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/40ad8aeb.pdf Sylvaneth Errata]}}

==Allegiance Abilities==

===Battle Traits===
Armies with the {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} allegiance have the following abilities:

*'''Awakened Wyldwoods''': After territories have been determined but before armies are set up, set up ONE Awakened Wyldwood anywhere on the battlefield more than 1" from any other terrain feature, 1" from enemy territory, and more than 6" from any objectives. Soon in this article you will see why you can't really play Sylvaneth without them. ''2019 Differences: Distance changes.''

*'''Forest Spirits''': You can set up a {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit aside for every unit deployed on the field. In any of your movement phases, you can deploy it on the battlefield. Units must be set up wholly within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood and more than 9" from any enemy models. This is their move for that movement phase. Sylvaneth deep strike. Exploit it with Spirits of Durthu, melee Kurnoth Hunters, and their shared battalion, Free Spirits. [[Rocks fall, everyone dies|Trunks fall, everyone dies]]. ''2019 Differences: Distance changes.''

*'''Navigate Realmroots''': Instead of moving in the movement phase, ONE {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit wholly within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood can be moved to wholly within 6" of another, different, wood, and of course more than 9" from any enemy. Treelord varieties have the Spirit Walk Ability and can teleport in addition to this one unit. ''2019 Differences: This used to be usable for multiple units a turn and the rolling after has gone. Definite nerf, but also simpler to use.''

*'''Places of Power''': After territories are chosen but before armies are deployed, select one terrain feature (this could be an Awakened Wyldwood YOU deploy according to order of operations... might need an FAQ). Friendly Sylvaneth units wholly within 6" of said terrain feature do not take battleshock tests. Interesting buff, it lets you sort of pick a focal point of where you want to commit to battle, and then have your, say, 30 block of dryads get to ignore battleshock while holding up the enemy.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Command Traits}}===
A general of an army with a {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} allegiance can choose one Command Trait from the lists below (be advised that if you choose your army to be one of the Wargroves, you are forced to take a specific command trait instead of one of these):

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Aspects Of War}}'''
#'''Dread Harvester''': If you charged, you can reroll melee hit rolls.
#'''Gnarled Warrior''': Reroll saves of 1. ''This used to be ignore rend unless it's -2 or better.''
#'''Gift of Ghyran''': Your general heals 1 wound at the start of each of your hero phases. ''This used to bump to D3 if near a wood.''
#'''Lord of Spites''': Reroll all wound rolls of 1. ''This used to be reroll first failed hit roll. So, that's better now.''
#'''Warsinger''': +2 to any charge rolls made for friendly {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units that are wholly within 12" of your general. Good choice for turning a spirit path walk into a charge on the same turn; essential for any alpha strike lists. ''Used to be +1 and within 10" (but not wholly).''
#'''Wisdom of the Ancients''': All friendly {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units wholly within 12" of your general in the battleshock phase add 1 to their Bravery. Best near revenants, your most vulnerable to battleshock. ''Used to be within 10" (but not wholly).''

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Aspects Of Renewal}}'''

{{AOSKeyword|Wizards}} only
#'''Arcane Bounty''': General knows 1 extra Deepwood spell.
#'''Mystic Regrowth''': If General successfully cast a spell, then heal D3 wounds at end of hero phase.
#'''Voice Of Warding''': General can unbind one extra spell per turn.
#'''Glade Lore''': General gets +1 to casting rolls when wholly within 6" of a wood.
#'''Spellsinger''': General gets +6 range of all spells. Consider using the balewind vortex to double this. ''2019 changes: This used to be the silverwood circlet.''
#'''Radiant Spirit''': If affected by a spell/endless spell, roll a dice, on a 4+ ignore the effect. Note the correct usage of affect and effect.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Artefacts}}===

One {{AOSKeyword|hero}} in an army with a {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance and has chosen to take the {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance abilities, plus one {{AOSKeyword|hero}} for every battalion selected, can choose one Artefact from the lists below.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Weapons Of The Glades}}'''

These affect a single melee weapon belonging to the bearer
#'''Daith's Reaper''': Additional rend of 1. ''Used to be on 6 get -4 rend. Much more useful now.''
#'''Greenwood Gladius''': If the bearer charges, +2 attacks that turn.
#'''Autumns Ire''': Re-roll hits and wounds of 1 as long as the bearer is wounded.
#'''Winnowstaff''': Can re-roll all hits against enemies with Wounds of 1.
#'''Ancient Barkblade''': +1 damage.
#'''The Darkest Bough''': On an unmodified wound roll of 6, deals an additional D3 mortal wounds

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Boons Of The Everqueen}}'''
#'''The Oaken Armour''': Reroll saves of 1. ''Used to be +1 to save rolls.''
#'''Briarsheath''': -1 Hit penalty for anyone attacking the bearer.
#'''Glamourweave''': 5+ save-after-the-save (mortal wounds only). Great for a Spirit of Durthu tanking Wounds because he can use that to protect himself, and also the only thing in the army that ignores mortal wounds. ''Used to be only 6+.''
#'''Lashvines''': For every non-negated wound from a melee weapon, on a 6 from a D6, the attacker takes 1 mortal wound.
#'''Silken Snares''': Ignore rend of -1 from enemies.
#'''Nightbloom Garland''': Unit is invisible to enemy units more than 12" away.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Verdant Treasures}}'''

#'''Seed of Rebirth''': The first time you lose your last wound roll a D6. On 2+ they come back to life with D3 wounds. Obviously best for a Branchwych/wraith, as a monster with D3 Wounds might as well be dead again. Especially useful on a Branchwych, as if she dies and comes back, she still counts as having taken wounds for the purposes of her bonus. ''Used to not require the dice roll.''
#'''Wraithstone''': Subtract 1 from the Bravery of enemy units within 10" in the Battleshock Phase. Combine with Spite-Revenants for best results.
#'''Everdew Vial''': +2 to run and charge rolls.
#'''Lifewreath''': Roll a dice in hero phase, on 3+ all {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} units wholly within 10" heal +D3 wounds.
#'''Crown Of Fell Bowers''': Pick an enemy within 6" at the start of the combat phase. All friendly {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} can re-roll all wound rolls against them for that phase.
#'''Etherblossom''': Bearer can fly. Durthu will love this.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Relics Of Nature}}'''

{{AOSKeyword|Wizards}} only.
#'''Acorn of the Ages''': Set up a Wyldwood wholly within 12", one-use only. The old favourite artefact of the one drop armies. You can simply throw a forest-shaped wrench into enemy charge lanes, you can let an isolated Hero summon their own reinforcement spawn point, you can make some cover to make a stand. ''This used to be within 5" (not wholly).''
#'''Spiritsong Stave''': Additional spell cast per turn. Amazing!
#'''The Vesperal Gem''': Once per turn, automatically succeed a Deepwood spell roll, which cannot be unbound. Sounds great.... but, then roll a dice, on a 1 you get D3 mortals. Ouchy. Good thing you have healing out the ass. Amazing relic because while you NEED magic, you don't have a lot of multi spell casters OR casting bonuses. Very solid choice. Note, Verdant Blessing is not part of Deepwood, so no autotree spamming.
#'''Luneth's Lamp''': +2 unbinding/dispelling rolls for endless spells.
#'''Hagbane Spite''': If you successfully unbind a spell, the caster gets 1 mortal.
#'''Wychwood Glaive''': Pick a melee weapon, it gets +2 damage against wizards.

==={{color|#01bbe3|Spell Lore}}===

All {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} {{AOSKeyword|wizard}}s know Verdant Blessing, plus they can take a spell from the Deepwood Spell Lore.

'''Verdant Blessing''' (6+): Casting value 6. Sets up an Awakened Wyldwood wholly within 24". As useful as the Wyldwoods are to you, this spell is pretty good. ''This used to be 18", part of the Deepwood list, and was more or less auto include''.

'''{{color|#01bbe3|Deepwood Spell Lore}}'''

Every '''WIZARD''' in an army with a {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance and has chosen to take the {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} allegiance abilities can choose one of the following Spells:
#'''Throne of Vines''' (5+): Caster gets +2 to cast, but only as long as you don't move. <s>Amazing</s> MUST TAKE for Allarielle and her three casts per turn, which allows her to summon woods on a 4+ and buff her Metamorphosis! Also a must take on a Branchwraith with stave to help her get the Dryads out more consistently. Note that RAW, this effect stacks! Take on a non moving multi caster and by mid game you won't be able to fail a cast and there will be no way to unbind you. ''This used to be +D3 to cast and unbind.''
#'''Regrowth''' (5+): Casting value 5. Heal D6 Wounds to a friendly, visible {{AOSKeyword|sylvaneth}} unit wholly within 18". TAKE IT. I don't care about your strategy, take it. Alarielle? Take it. Treelord Ancient? Take it. Drycha? Take it unless you want a suicide bomb. ''Used to also heal D3 on non-sylvaneth.''
#'''The Dwellers Below''' (7+): Pick a unit within 10", roll a D6 for every model in the unit, every 6 deals a Mortal Wound. Basically Vermintide/New Treason of Tzeentch. It's good, with a potentially gigantic damage output, but unless used against units of 20+, Arcane Bolt will probably do more.
#'''Deadly Harvest''' (6+): Each enemy unit within 3" gets D3 mortals. Nice when you're stuck in melee, but only really good in combination with the Spellsinger command trait. Also, remember that it gets better against multiple small units, but worse against horde armies - essentially the opposite of Dwellers below. ''This used to be call The Reaping.''
#'''Verdurous Harmony''' (7+): A unit wholly within 18" regains 1 slain model (or D3 for Dryads, Tree/Spite Revs). Amazing spell, just can be a little tricky to consistently cast without bonuses. 'New spell! Is a variant of an old wargrove spell.''
#'''Treesong''' (7+): For one enemy unit within 16" and 6" of a wood, you get to re-roll melee hit and wound rolls of 1 against them. What? Very situational and high casting value. Avoid. ''Completely rewritten, used to move a wood 2D6.''

==={{color|#01bbe3|Endless Spells}}===

Note that unlike the some of the [[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Malign Sorcery|generic]] endless spells, the Sylvaneth spells can't be used by your opponent against you (other than moving them out of harms way).

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Gladewyrm_ENG.pdf Gladewyrm]''' (30pts, CV 7, predatory 8"): Ancient protectors of the <s>[[Dune|spice]]</s> realmroots.
**Does D3 mortal wounds to non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units within 1" and heals D3 wounds to {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units wholly within 6" of where it ends up.
**Pretty good for the cost. For best effect, lob it in the middle of any combat not involving your battleline.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Vengeful_Skullroot_ENG.pdf Vengeful Skullroot]''' (40pts, CV 6, predatory 8"): Spooky tree
**Adds D3 to fleeing non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} models that fail battleshock tests within 3".
**Also does D3 mortal wounds to non-{{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} units it passes across, boosted to D6 if said units are within 3" of an {{AOSKeyword|AWAKENED WYLDWOOD}}.
**If you can get that D6 off, then this is great. Given the myriad ways of avoiding battleshock, and that enemies avoid woods where possible, you might find better use out of the slightly cheaper Gladewyrm.

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spiteswarm_Hive_ENG.pdf Spiteswarm Hive]''' (50pts, CV 7): More of Drycha's little gribbles.
**Lets ''you'' (and only you) choose one of the following effects in ''every'' hero phase (including your opponents) each turn it's around: Roll a dice for each {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}} unit wholly within 8", on a 2+ ''either'' add 3" to normal moves and charge moves ''or'' roll re-roll saves of 1.
**Great spell, however be careful when using the move bonus that your models don't get out of range too quickly.
**Best case is to place it halfway between you and an enemy, use the move bonus to get into combat, then use the save bonus during your opponents turn (assuming you survive the first round of combat).
**The small base size helps to stop it getting in the way of movement, assuming you point the gribbles out of the way.

==Glades==
Every Sylvaneth army gets to optionally belong to a glade ''for free'', which gives you an extra ability, command ability, fixes your General's command trait (you cannot choose from the Allegiance Abilities lists) and fixes your first artefact.

The Core FAQ clarifies that if you take Alarielle/Drycha as your general and a Glade, you don't get the Glade's Command Trait.

''2019 Differences: These are named after the Wargroves from the old Battletome, but they're very different. Instead of being battalions, which restrict what units you take, they force you into a set of abilities/artefacts.''

===Dreadwood===

*''Ability'': '''Malicious Tormentors''': Spite Revs reroll hits of 1.
*''Command Ability'': '''Sinister Ambush''': Once per turn, take a unit within 18" of a Hero and replace them anywhere on the battlefield, >9" of enemy units.
*''Command Trait'': '''Paragon Of Terror''': Enemy units reroll successful battleshock tests when within 6" of your general.
*''Artefact'': '''Jewel Of Withering''': -1 to melee wound rolls attacking the bearer.

The spooky choice. Gives a reason to use lots of Spite-Revenants. The battleshock reroll jells nicely with the Spite's -1 bravery buff, and hit rerolls on top of their 3+ to hit should make them terrifying. The teleporting is only good for deep striking a single unit, but combine with wyldwood teleporting and you can also throw over a bunch of Treelords and a big unit of Dryads at the same time.

===Gnarlroot===

*''Ability'': '''Shield The Arcane''': Units reroll hits of 1 when within 12" of friendly Gnarlroot Wizards.
*''Command Ability'': '''The Earth Defends''': One unit within 12" of a hero negates wounds or mortal wounds on 6+ for that combat phase.
*''Command Trait'': '''Nurtured By Magic''': Once per turn, if your general successfully casts a spell, a unit wholly within 18" heals D3 wounds.
*''Artefact'': '''Chalice Of Nectar''': Roll 3 dice when casting or unbinding and discard one of your choice.

The magicy life choice.
*The ability to reroll 1s (for free) overlaps with the Arch-Revenant, so reasonable chance you already have that covered. But might be an excuse to drop Archie, freeing up 100 sweet points, or use both to further extend across your army (remember, Archie isn't a wizard).
*Command ability is best left for emergency damage limitation on a crucial unit that somehow got into melee, unless you're really good at rolling sixes and have lots of spare CPs.
*The Chalice, which means the bearer well may never fail a cast, sounds awesome at first glance, but it won't make you into a top-tier spellcaster. Your best wizard, Alarielle can't take artefacts (neither can Drycha), so that leaves a you with a Wraith, Wych or Ancient. With your artefact slot taken, the only way to boost your number of casts is to use the the Balewind Vortex on the edge of a wood with the Wraith or Wych, essentially giving you a branchwych bomb (see Branchwych section) or supercharging your Dryad summoner and making them a big target. Safest option is to use it by itself on your Wraith (hidden deep in a wood) to 'almost' guarantee those Dryad summons.
**Vesperal Gem (which guarantees the cast, but with a small chance of mortals) is roughly equivalent to the Chalice without tying you to a glade. This can then be supplemented with Spellsinger (+6 range, which you can double by using the balewind vortex), or Winterleaf/Harvestboon/Dreadwood if you're taking a battalion.
*The trait, whilst great at keeping stuff alive, is limited the same way as the Chalice - Wych, Wraith or Ancient only. Great for keeping an Ancient alive and keeping the damage table topped up. Wraith is less than ideal as you ideally want her away from the action.

===Heartwood===

*''Ability'': '''Courage for Kurnoth''': +1 Bravery wholly within 12" of heroes.
*''Command Ability'': '''Lord of the Hunt''': [[Markerlight|Reroll melee hit and wound rolls of 1 against 1 enemy unit within 12" of a hero]].
*''Command Trait'': '''Legacy of Valour''': If the general is slain, do D3 mortal wounds to an enemy unit within 1" on a 2+. On a 6, do D6 instead.
*''Artefact'': '''Horn of the Consort''': Reroll hits for Kurnoth Hunters wholly within 12".

The reliability choice. The CA overlaps with the Artefact as is a better version of the free one you get with Arch Revenant (now you get wound rolls too). Trait is an added bonus for any hero you ''expect'' to die on in melee somewhere - again, Durthu comes to mind. Those mortals could quite easily finish of that unit he just couldn't quite shift. Bravery boost is nothing to be sniffed at. Put the artefact on the Arch Revenant and have her babysit some Bows (with her +1 attacks and rerolls of 1), then as the battle shifts to meleem, run 18" (that plus two lots of 12" range is 42") to the frontlines to boost your Swords and Scythes. Or throw on a Wych near the bows and put Archie at the front to benefit from both reroll abilities.

===Harvestboon===

*''Ability'': '''Vibrant Surge''': Reroll melee hits of 1 after charging that turn.
*''Command Ability'': '''Fertile Ground''': A unit within 12" of the General gets +1 attacks to all melee weapons.
*''Command Trait'': '''Seek New Fruit''': After attacking, your General can move 6", ending more than 3" from enemy units.
*''Artefact'': '''The Silent Sickle''': One melee weapon of the bearer gets +1 attacks.

The Sparta General choice.
*To make decent use of the Command Trait, you're going to be taking Durthu (or maybe an Ancient on 1000pt games). Similarly, the Artefact is best used on Durthu (or Ancient).
*The Command Ability and Ability are both more-or-less covered with the Arch-Revenant. Either use this as a replacement for the Archie, or load both Command Abilities onto a single unit (assuming you've been holding back the CPs) for +2. Use these on your Kurnoths or your already powered up Durthu. Damn.

===Ironbark===

*''Ability'': '''Stubborn And Taciturn ''': Reroll battleshock tests when wholly within 12" of any heroes.
*''Command Ability'': '''Stand Firm''': Pick one enemy unit that charges within 1", roll a dice. On 2+ they get D3 mortals.
*''Command Trait'': '''Mere Rainfall''': Your General rerolls saves against missile weapons.
*''Artefact'': '''Ironbark Talisman''': +1 for melee wound rolls.

In addition, you get Dispossed and Fyreslayers as allies.

The dwarven choice. Rainfall will probably just make your opponent target elsewhere (but you are forcing that choice upon them). Stand Firm is going to stop any small heroes from charging you.

===Oakenbrow===

*''Ability'': '''Our Roots Run Deep''': Subtract 2 from wounds taken by Treelords of all varieties when looking at the damage table.
*''Command Ability'': '''Yield To None''': Battleshock immunity wholly within 16" of a selected hero.
*''Command Trait'': '''Regal Old-growth''': +1 wound.
*''Artefact'': '''Dawnflask''': 6+ save against wounds and mortal wounds.

The Treelord choice. With all the point reductions to Treelords this sounds like a good idea, but with how terrible the bonuses are, you should probably just use a better Grove. The ability is going to keep Durthu's sword at full strength for twice as long (Up to 4 wounds taken, instead of 2) - but sadly the trait doesn't stack here.

===Winterleaf===

*''Ability'': '''Winter's Bite''': For ''all your units'', unmodified melee hit rolls of 6 score 2 hits.
*''Command Ability'': '''Branch Blizzard''': Extra 12" shooting attack. Roll a dice for each model in target unit, each 6+ is one mortal.
*''Command Trait'': '''My Heart Is Ice''': Every melee wound inflicted on your general, roll a dice, on a 5+ the attacker gets one mortal.
*''Artefact'': '''Frozen Kernel''': Once per game at the start of the combat phase, 1 friendly WINTERLEAF unit wholly with 18" of the bearer can pile in and attack twice. It does the second pile in and attack right after the first time it attacks, and only if it is still within 3" of an enemy unit.

The obvious choice.
*The ability exploding sixes is super deadly. The math works out as more or less the same as +1 to hit. And this is ''across your whole army!''
*The general's feedback on 5+'s in melee can also be super deadly. Can also help keep your guy alive - on a straight Behemoth vs Behemoth fight, those 5+'s will weaken your opponents attacks as it drops down its damage table.
*Regardless of how you play it, the Kernel is always super deadly. But it needs a bit of finesse to ensure you pick the best moment to use it - given that you choose at the start of the phase when to use it, it's very easy to super power something that didn't need it. Make sure to use it before your general is killed too.
*The shooting attack isn't quite so super deadly as everything else, but who cares when you have everything else above. Mostly only of use against hordes and if you've got plenty of spare CPs (which you won't).
*If you're unsure what to take, unsure of how to play Sylvaneth and just want to throw everything into combat then just take Winterleaf. Simple. Super deadly.
*On 1000pt games, where you can only really squeeze in a single big guy, and you really want to take Drycha, then Winterleaf is still useful. Simply make Archie/Wraith/Wych your general. Sure, the Command Trait is wasted, but the Ability and Artefact are still really good.

==Warscrolls==
==={{color|#dda16f|Named Leaders}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Sylvaneth_Alarielle_ENG.pdf Alarielle the Everqueen]:''' (600pts). As expected from the next big over-the-top God model, Alarielle is downright terrifying. Specifics? Sure.
**The lady has a massive pool of 16 Wounds with a 3+ Save and yet she still rocks a 16" Flying Move stat.
**She can heal a Sylvaneth models around her for D3 each turn.
** She also has a strong throwing spear with massive 30" range and the beetle hits harder than anything else in the game. It's so damn strong it damages people standing nearby if it charges and has five damage 5(!) attacks. And her other weapon is basically the Massive Impaling Talon, but supercharged and with 4 attacks and any hit rolls of 6 score D3 mortal wounds.
**Like Nagash, Archaon and Morathi, she is not really something you compare to normal models. She's too powerful for that. She's simply something you try to survive.
**Three casts per turn. Use them to cast Malign Sorcery endless spells and consider giving her the Throne of Vines spell.
**She gets a one shot unblockable summon of a Treelord (regular), 3x Kurnoths, 20x Dryads, 10x Tree- or Spite-Revenants or, umm, a single Branchwych. This effectively dropping her cost by ~200 points, and you get to decide which unit to spend those ~200 points on during the game. Remember, you've probably already got your Dryad summoning covered by the Branchwraiths.
**Back down to 600 points (as per FAQ). If you think you can keep her alive, then she's now a good pick.
**Her spell Metamorphosis (7+), you roll as many dice as the casting roll, and each 4+ deals a mortal to a unit within 16". If that kills the enemy, then you can place a wood there.
**''2019 Differences: Talon no longer auto kills, instead dealing Mortal Wounds, and the spell Metamorphosis is more expensive. However, Battering Ram is now based on the model rather than a terrain piece, but only effects enemy units and Ghyran's Wrath can be used every time (for a CP).''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Drycha_Hamadreth_ENG.pdf Drycha Hamadreth]:''' (300pts). Drycha is back and more pissed off than ever.
**Now if an unmodified hit roll from Flitterfuries or Squirmlings is a 6, it's a mortal wound instead of going through the attack sequence.
**Flitterfuries are an 18" shooting attack with 10 attacks single damage, rend -1. Meanwhile Squirmlings are 2" melee attack, also with 10 attacks single damage, but not rend. At the start of each battle round, you can choose what mood she's in, and as a result one of these attack doubles to 20!
**In addition, her talons give another 6 attacks at damage 2, rend -2. This lady is a beast!
**She's also excessively fast with a 9" Move that is not weakened by her damage table.
**Her spell (6+) scores D3 damage to every unit within 10" based on a roll against the unit's bravery. This ends up being difficult to score damage against high bravery armies such as Death. This spell combos up with her relationship to Spite-Revenants though. The Spites lower enemy Bravery in order to power her damage-off-of-Bravery spell whereas she grants them better To Wound rolls.
**''2019 Differences: She's gone up from 280 points. For that you get both Flitterfuries and Squirmlings, which now have normal attack profiles instead of mortals, but the slendervines attack has gone. You get to choose her mood, instead of rolling, but it's effect isn't quite as good. The spell is simplified, both reducing its max damage, but making it more likely do damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/aos-warscroll-yltharis-guardians-en.pdf Ylthari]:''' (180pts, with Guardians) Shadespire Hero takes root in AOS.
**Requires you to bring Ylthari's Guardians along with.
**Similar to a Branchwych with a bit more melee power and is labelled a {{AOSKeyword|thornwych}}.
**Re-rolls wound rolls of 1.
**Her spell (6+) is a supercharged arcane bolt, giving you an average of 2 mortals per cast.
**Might be best leaving her for Shadespire. You're paying 20 points more for her and the Guardian's than you would for a Branchwych and 5 Tree Revenants and not really gaining much in return.
**Labelled Oakenbow, which as per FAQ, means that if you take another glade, these guys do not benefit from glade bonus. Which makes her now even more useless than before.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

==={{color|#dda16f|Generic Leaders}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Branchwraith_ENG.pdf Branchwraith]:''' (80pts) Essential summoning support
**As a Hero she sports a very meh stat wheel with the exception of her above average movement speed (7"). Her melee will offer only token resistance to opponents, big surprise, she's a Wizard after all, but when in a wood, she gets -1 to hits made against her, which helps. Although you shouldn't really ever be getting her into combat, she should ideally spend her life hidden in woods, teleporting between them.
**That summoning though allows you to summon 10 Dryads ''every turn''. Game breaking? Well, not quite. Firstly you need to successfully cast and not get unbound; secondly said Dryads need placing in a wyldwood more than 9" from an enemy. You basically have to put a forest in your backfield and just use it to churn out dryads, then teleport them where you need them to go. You could be looking at 2-3 movement phases before they can charge anything. If you have any sense you will keep this crazy looking plant lady in your starting Wyldwood (making the lady harder to hit, plus raising her Save like normal cover) or behind your Wyldwood keeping her out of unbind range (30").
**Consider giving your wraith anything that bumps the spell cast (7+, 58.3% chance) to try and guarantee a whole 100pts of Dryads every turn. Take the Stave for an additional cast plus the Throne spell; cast throne (5+, 83.3% chance) then summon at 5+ (again, 83.3% chance). Turn two, another throne cast and you are down to needing 3+. Keep going and you're more or less guaranteed that cast, plus it'll be impossible to unbind. Plus in later turns also gives you the bonus of a cheeky bolt/shield/harmony cast. If you really don't want to use up that artefact slot then another option is taking a battalion and Gnarlroot - the chalice gives her 3 dice, discarding 1, giving you a 74.5% chance.
**Consider taking two Branchwraiths. Use the second one for verdant blessing wood summonings. If the Dryad summoning wraith dies, you have a spare one. Now you can afford to be a little riskier and put one in a wood near the front lines to get those new Dyrads into combat quicker, or get those woods out further. And if that's convinced you, then maybe you want to consider a third Branchwraith. Arm them with an array of Deepwood spells and you should always have something useful to cast, especially given turn 5 (or even 4) it might not be useful to summon more bodies that you won't get into combat. This is probably overboard.
**''2019 Differences: Just some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Branchwych_ENG.pdf Branchwych]:''' (80pts) Aggressive support wizard.
**Same meh stat wheel as the Branchwraith, but with slightly better melee.
**As long as she's taken at least one wound in damage, she gets 2 extra attacks on her scythe.
**Her spell Unleash Spites (5+) is a damaging pulse effecting all enemy units within 9". It works best against the more units that are in range - If there are only 1 or 2 target units in range, then arcane bolt will usually do more damage than the pulse, but it gets better against more units, of course. On average, you'll expect 1.11 mortal wounds per unit.
**In Skirmish, the pulse is extremely broken, as ''every'' model is a unit. So, get within range of the front line and suddenly every model is hit with rolling a ''minimum'' of 5 dice, giving mortal wounds on sixes. Most of those models are single wound chaff, because skirmish doesn't allow you to take any of the good stuff, and you've got a game winning massacre. Sadly that pulse is the only thing we've got going for ourselves in Skirmish.
**The oft whispered about ''Branchwych Bomb'' involves sticking her on a Balewind Vortex inside a mid to frontline wood, giving her Deadly Harvest, Spellsinger, and using whatever casting bonuses you can get hold of. Then sit back and cast both spells, spamming mortals out in 21" and 15" bubbles. In practice you're tying up far too much to get this off reliably. Just don't run crying when your 5 wound guy gets wiped out pronto after one round of this. Clearly hilarious if you can get it to work.
***It's possible to invest even more into this strategy by adding an Umbral Spellportal, but even that doesn't make it worthwhile.
**Difficult to recommend her when you can get a spare Dryad summoning Branchwraith for the same cost, and give her Dwellers Below which isn't that much worse than Unleash Spites.
**''2019 Differences: scythe attacks bonus is better as it is now whilst damaged, instead of just that turn. Also some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spirit_of_Durthu_ENG.pdf Spirit of Durthu]:''' (300pts) This is <s> SPARTAAAAA</s> *ahem* supercharged Treelord.
**The Spirit of Durthu is an absolute damage monster, with extremely powerful shooting, terrifying melee and all the standard tricks of the vanilla Treelord.
**NOT a named character (and therefore not reduced to 0-1 in Matched Play, etc etc), but very expensive.
**A shooting attack that is basically the vanilla Treelord's Strangleroots on steroids, with higher range, more shots and higher damage per shot.
**His sword is just about as terrifying as it looks, with constant damage 6 so long as he stays in good health and 2 bonus attacks for being near a wood.
**You really need those big melee attacks to actually hit. So have consider having your Sylvaneth be from Ghyran, and give your Spirit of Durthu the Ghyrstrike Relic. 3 attacks (plus 2 if near a wyldwood), 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 6 damage. Holy good fuck.
**That damage table is a killer for him. Just two wounds and he goes from 6 to D6 damage. Do the math, and a block of Kurnoth's will output a lower higher end, but similar average output and degrade slower.
**He also adds 1 to the Bravery of friendly Sylvaneth.
**Now only 300 points since the FAQ. Maybe we'll start seeing him in lists again.
**''2019 Differences: Other than the stuff copied across from the Vanilla Treelord, he loses the damaging shooting supercharge and the ability to take wounds from others (not that either were used much). The bonus for being near a wood is a fixed 2 attacks instead of D3. So, no practical changes, but he has gone down from 380 points! Drycha and Durthu are almost level pegging, and make for a scary combo.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Treelord_Ancient_ENG.pdf Treelord Ancient]:''' (260pts). The swiss army knife Treelord
**If Durthu is a supercharged Treelord, then this is the slightly weaker but more useful version. He retains all the abilities and powers of the vanilla.
**Compare to a Vanilla Treelord, this guy has 1" less movement and 1 less attack on its Sweeping Blows. This doesn't seem like much, but the drop from 4 to 3 attacks is actually quite drastic. And what does this old fella get in return? An extra 3 to its Bravery, 18" range on its strangle roots, gains a command ability and becoming a freakin' wizard!
**His unique spell will do D3 damage to any enemy units on or around your woods. It's either a great deterrent to entering your woods or a great punishment if the opponent was dumb enough to actually do it.
**Once per battle he can unconditionally summon a new wood. This makes him an almost must take if you want a ''guaranteed'' second wood out on your first turn. Note this is once per game, not once per Ancient per game. Wholly within 18" is not that long a range, so if you're dropping turn one (before you've moved anything) you're not going to be using it for backline deep striking. However, If you teleport the Ancient to the wood, then next turn a 24" verdant blessing wood should give you all the range you need.
**Has a Command Ability that lets all the Sylvaneth around him reroll saves of 1s.
**He's got a lot of stuff going on. And now at 260 points maybe he's decent value, ''if'' you use everything he has to offer. Possibly works best in 1000pt lists where you've got less room other stuff.
**''2019 Differences: Other than the stuff copied across from the Vanilla Treelord, the wood summons is just once unconditionally instead of on a 4+, and some distances changing to wholly within.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Arch_Revenant_ENG.pdf Arch-Revenant]:''' (100pts) A newbie in the Sylvaneth ranks, added with the Looncurse battlebox.
**Is very fast, with a move of 12" and an ability to fly until she loses her mount (see below).
**Has the best non-Behemoth Hero melee in Sylvaneth (which doesn't say much): three 2" 3+/3+/-2 Dmg 2 attacks with her glave and a single 4+/3+ Dmg D3 attack with her mount.
**Slightly more survivable than a Branchwych, with five wounds, a 4+ save and an ability to sacrifice her mount to negate one allocated normal or mortal wound.
**Has a shield for either defensive or offensive use: at the start of the combat phase you may chose to use it to re-roll either save rolls or hit rolls of 1.
**Automatically buffs Kurnoth Hunters within 12" of herself, allowing them to re-roll hit rolls of 1 (both melee and shooting).
**Has a great command ability, adding 1 attack to each model's weapon in a unit within 9" (12" if the Arch-Revenant is your General). Combine this ability with alpha-striking unit of Tree-Revenants, or buff the hell out of Kurnoth Sword/Scythes - either way, it'll really hurt your opponent. Only works in the melee phase, so no buffing Kurnoth bows.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

==={{color|#dda16f|Battleline}}===
''Unconditional battleline''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Dryads_ENG.pdf Dryads]:''' (100/270pts, min 10, max 30) Your rank and file angry trees. These ladies are thankfully quite versatile and so can be used for a variety of situations.
**At first glance the ladies don't look like much, having only a 5+ Save and 2 attacks at 4+/4+/-/1. But they quickly become incredible as in units of 10+ they gain +1 Save, they hit on 3+ in your combat phase and they also have 2" range on their attacks, letting them fight in thick, two-row hedges. They also profit from being near a wood (-1 to hits against them), this is in addition to +1 save for being in cover. They are also very fast at 7". Keep them in big units as the Save-bonus and the 2" range heavily reward you for doing so.
**You can abuse their buffed save rolls by adding a unit of Sisters of the Thorn so you can reroll failed saves (which also deals a mortal on 6), so a large unit in a wood now has 3+ with reroll. For chaff, that's pretty damn good. However, those Sisters are going to cost you a fair bit in return.
**With Cities of Sigmar, Sisters of the Thorn's spell can only be used on WANDERERS unit, so Dryads cannot make use of it anymore.
**Remember to bring at least an additional 20 of these for the Branchwraith to summon. Unless you plan on playing super defensive, you won't need more than 30 spare.
**''2019 Differences: Wholly within measuring means no more daisy chains across the board. However, the large unit bonus is now 10 instead of 12. With all the other changes going on, pure Dryad spamming is probably no longer our strongest build.''

''Battleline in {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}}''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Tree_Revenants_ENG.pdf Tree-Revenants]:''' (80/420pts, min 5, max 30) Troops for tricksy players - not your mainline infantry.
**At first glance look disappointing, with basically the same stat-wheel as Dryads but lower Move. Now here's where it gets good....
**They have Rend in melee, unlike the Drayds.
**They have the coolest rerolls in the game, getting to reroll 1 dice per ''phase''. So this seems wonky in melee, doesn't it? Well, it also allows them to reroll the dice to run, one of the charge dice, the Battleshock dice... you get the picture.
**The standards allow them to pile in 6" which lets them get more attacks in.
**Most importantly, the musician allows them to use a better Spirit Paths rule, letting you take them off the table and then place them '''anywhere''' on the table more than 9" from enemy units.
**Leader either gets two additional attacks or +1 damage.
**Do ''not'' use these guys as as you would Dryads. They aren't particularly killy, they will die quickly if attacked first and their kit is way too expensive to use lots of them. They are for board control:
***Charge blockers. Save until your opponent gets ready to charge a very killy unit they want to get into combat asap, then teleport a wall of Revenants in front. Revenants will die instantly in the following combat, but it'll free up your more important units.
***Back line threatening. Your opponent can no longer keep those war machines, Jezzails and Poisoned Wind Mortars unguarded. Minimum-size squads of them also have just high enough of a damage output to cut all the aforementioned units to ribbons. But, you will say, the 9" charge after teleporting is improbable. No. Since they can reroll one of the charge dice, they are more likely to make that charge than to fail it. A good rule of thumb is to use 2 units of minimum size. That way, it's very likely at least one of them will make the charge and then they will more than likely deal enough damage to neuter the war machine you attacked.
***Objective taking. Without any Revenants, your opponent might decide to leave a captured objective unguarded. With Revenants either you can teleport and grab the objective or they'll be wise to this and need to keep a unit tied up - one big enough to survive a teleport and charge strike.
**''2019 Differences: Teleporting is now anywhere instead of near a wood or table edge. It's a small change, but a good one.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Spite_Revenants_ENG.pdf Spite-Revenants]:''' (60/200pts, min 5, max 20) Less tricksy, more creepy Tree-Revenants.
**No rend and single damage, but 3 attacks at +3/+3 each!
**They also exist to muck around with enemy Bravery. They flat reduce the Bravery of enemies around them, which combos well with Drycha's unique spell. Plus they force them to reroll passed battleshock tests. Even Death armies can end up with some battleshock losses.
**1" range means it'll be tricky getting all 61 attacks of a 20 model unit fully into combat.
**Your glass cannon battleline: Hits really hard, dies really quickly. Use Dryads for staying power.
**200 points for 20 of these is the same as Dryads! Against bad save hordes these guys might be the superior option. Sadly, it'll hurt your wallet a lot more - £90 for 20 vs £31.25 for the same in Dryads (add in your own local currency multiplier).
**''2019 Differences: 10 points drop, the scenery rule is switched for the rerolling battleshock, and attacks are up from +4/+4 to +3/+3, that's a huge boost! Finally these are a valid battleline option. GW must really want people to start playing these guys.''

==={{color|#dda16f|Other Troops}}===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Greatswords_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Greatswords]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12) The ultimate wooden killing machine.
**Incredible. Each of these guys is basically a minor Hero at 5 Wounds and a 4+ Save.
**The sword tosses out 4 attacks at -1 Rend and damage 2. And deals an additional mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6.
**When melee attacking, if they don't need to move (other than 1" pile in), they can gain the ability to re-roll saves.
***Since the warscroll only says at the start of the charge phase but doesn't specify whose, they can technically charge and pile in normally in your charge phase and then use Tanglethorn Thicket in your opponent's if you went first.
**At the end of combat you deal mortal wounds on a 4+ for each model in your unit
**They also channel Command Abilities. When you use a Command ability, any unit wholly within 12" of a Kunroth is also counted as being in range of the casting hero.
**GW has switched the points for these up and down over the years. Down again slightly for 2020
**Consider pretending you're playing 40K and magnetise the arms for different weapon loadouts below. If you fix the weapons on one unit then you'll have enough shoulder pads spare to better magnetise a second unit. The Quiverbugs are trickier to magnetise. Sadly there are no official rules for using plasma cannons.
**These guys are crazy good now, especially if you take them in Winterleaf. Stick an Arch-Revenant next to a unit, send into something big, and watch it go **POOF**. Pop command ability for 10 attacks hitting on 3+, 5 attacks on 2+, reroll 1's to hit, with 6's causing mortal wounds AND extra attacks?! All wounding on 3's with their -1 rend and flat 2 damage (Bonus points for using the Frozen Kernel so they can do it again. Even Nagash will tremble in terror.)
**''2019 Differences: Other than the warscroll split, failed saves confusion has been fixed, some range changes, improvement to the end of combat damage. Plus swords get an extra mortal. Even stronger than before. With the mortal wounds buff, better than scythes against everything, though with 1" less range.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Scythes_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Scythes]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12)
**Same as above, but with longer weapon range of the scythes, which tosses out 3 attacks at Rend -2 and damage D3. The scythes do more damage against 2+ saves, break even against 3+ and the swords win against everything else. But that's before taking into account the mortal wounds on 6 the Swords deal out (which the scythes don't get).
**In general the swords are your better option (especially given how rare 2+ and even 3+ saves are in AoS).
**However, the scythes have 2" reach. You'll want this for units of 6 or more to get them all into combat or if you want to place a screen of Dryads (preferably on the edge of a woods) or Revenants in front and attack through them. Tricksier players will go for the scythes.
**''2019 Differences: Same as the swords variant, except for no new additional weapon damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Kurnoth_Hunters_Greatbows_ENG.pdf Kurnoth Hunters With Kurnoth Greatbows]:''' (190pts, min 3, max 12)
**Same as above, but now with ranged weapons.
**A stunning 30" range, two shots per model and D3 damage per shot, these guys are basically artillery.
**You also get the adorable Quiverlings who do the melee fighting for them, being very non-threatening, but remember, these guys are tough as nails and you can shoot into melee. Does a lot less damage overall than melee weapons, and you can only shoot during your turn (unlike melee, effectively halving the potential damage done per game), but that range means you won't be getting attacked back. How dare they! The Quiverlings are no longer the source of their melee damage! Somehow, the giant tree people have learned to punch things of their own accord now
**Take into account our woods block line of sight (so no camping in woods) and Look Out Sir means you should probably avoid sniping guarded heroes.
**Bows were the best option in original AOS, no longer so essential in AOS2.
**''2019 Differences: Same as the swords variant, except for no new additional weapon damage.''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/aos-warscroll-yltharis-guardians-en.pdf Ylthari’s Guardians]:''' (Free with Ylthari) Shadespire Tree Revenants without the good stuff.
**Can only be taken along with Ylthari.
**Tree Revenants without a musician or banner, so you loose the pile in and teleport abilities.
**In return you get three different weapon profiles (sword, glaive, bow), which are upgrades on the Tree Revenants.
**Plus on a D6 3+ you get to attack first, which is going to make them a lot less fragile than standard Tree Revenants.
**You also lose the Tree Revs reroll any dice per phase, but you can reroll wounds of 1.
**Labelled {{AOSKeyword|tree revenant}}, but Ylthari isn't. As written means you can include them in Tree Revenant battalion requirements, even though you still have to bring along Ylthari who wouldn't then be in the battalion. Needs an FAQ to confirm.
**Rules as Written their Martial Memories ability will cause themselves and ANY other Tree-Revenant unit within 3" of enemy units to fight first, on a 3+, in the combat phase. This needs playtesting to see if it's worth the points, but in theory it sounds almost too good to be true. You'd bring Ylthari's Guardians to turn your decent Tree-Revenants into better than Dryad melee blenders. Yeah, that's gone as of the battletome. Now Martial Memories is the same as the ability on the Tree-Revenants.
**''2019 Differences: New for 2019!''

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos_skaeths_wild_hunt_en.pdf Skaeth’s Wild Hunt]:''' (120pts, min/max 5) Straight outa Beatsgrave
**5 unique models with ok melee (max damage of six wounds with all models) and a little bit of shooting (a single close range and single far range attack)
**One wound each, but the leader gets one extra. And the one of them is a Wizard.
**Might be easier to just think of these guys as a 120pt six wound wizard with a behemoth damage table. Remember, each model killed results in fewer attacks/abilities. Just make sure you remove the models you most care about last.
**Spell (CV 7), as long as the model lives, gives you +1 to wounds rolls on a nearby unit, which is neat. Especially given that's something not covered elsewhere in the faction. Sadly it's a fairly high casting value.
**They can still charge and shoot after running, not that you'll be charging them much.
**Unique and not a hero.
**Really, the +1 wounds spell to work alongside your other buffs is the reason you'll be taking these guys. In an either/or choice, the Arch Revenant is 20pts cheaper and better, and the wych/wraiths are 50% cheaper if you just want a wizard.
**Like Ylthari, labelled Oakenbow, which as per FAQ, means that if you take another glade, these guys do not benefit from the glade bonus. Which makes them now even more useless than before.

===Behemoths===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Treelord_ENG.pdf Treelord]:''' (180pts) ''The'' Walking Tree. (aka Groot)
**[[DISTRACTION CARNIFEX]] with appropriate stats to match.
**At the start of combat he can stomp and on a 4+ cause one enemy unit to fight at the end of combat.
**You get a single attack at rend -2, and on a 6 it goes from 1 damage to D6 mortal wounds.
**Instead of moving, if close to a wood, he can teleport to another wood, more than 9" from enemies. This is in addition to the single unit that can do the same using the allegiance ability. Deep Strike!
**And they can also shoot, which is decent, not much worse than a unit of Bow Kurnoths.
**It should be remembered that these guys class as monsters and carry all the baggage that comes with that (You know declining stats, Large model, everyone wants to shoot it. that sort of thing), its still a pretty kickass unit.
**Everything this guy can do, Durthu and the Ancient can do, and more. But you're paying appropriately for them.
**This guy rarely sees usage. He's not a bad choice, it's just Kurnoth's, at only 20 points more, are a better choice. And if you really want him, the Ancient and Durthu give you more.
**''2019 Differences: Stomp has changed from causing -1 to hits against, impale has been simplified. And down from 240 points!''

===Scenery===

*'''[https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Awakened_Wyldwood_ENG.pdf Awakened Wyldwood]:''' Trees everywhere.
**New models!
**An Awakened Wyldwood consists of 3-6 citadel woods arranged to form a circle. Everything inside is treated as woods.
**A Citadel wood is a single tree with a bit of base. They come in packs of three, which when formed into a circle are roughly the same size as the old dinner plate model.
**FAQ states you can use one old citadel wood model as one awakened wood terrain piece. Given that one old wood is roughly the same size of 3 new woods, you're at a disadvantage using them.
**Line of sight blockers, so no camping your shooters in woods.
**If a wizard casts a spell near a wood, then all nearby non-Sylvaneth get D3 mortals on a 5+.
**At the end of the charge phase, all nearby non-Sylvaneth get D3 mortals on a 6.
**Remember those damages hurt your allies and your ally in doubles games.
**All Treelords and one other unit per turn can teleport between two of these instead of moving.
**Branchwraiths, Branchwyches, Dryads and Durthu all gain bonuses for being near a wood.
**As per the allegiance ability, you can place one of these at the start of the game. The Acorn artefact and the Treelord Ancient can both unconditionally place one wood per game. The verdant blessing spell (6+) is known by all our wizards and can place a new wood per turn if successfully cast. Alarielle can set up a new wood after killing a unit with her spell (if there is room).
**Your first wood needs to be more than 6" from an objective, but none of the other wood placements have that restriction.
**Your opponent is going to want to place lots of scenery during setup and then spread out during the first turn in order to block our wood placements. A situation made worse by the increase in faction specific scenery. You could quite easily end up only get out the start wood and one more during an entire game. Getting first turn can help mitigate this.
**The new models will mean an end to tree-less bases, and they'll fit in your army storage box. However, it's yet to be seen how many of these you're going to need to bring along per game and whether they are as crucial as they were in previous additions. You could end up bringing along 8 packs of these, which still ends up being a significant upfront cost for the army and it's still a lot of extra plastic you're carting around between games.
**Note that the entire inside of the ring of woods is counted as part of the Awakened Wyldwood, which means you can't use a wildwood to surround another piece of scenery or objective.
**''2019 Differences: New models! No longer auto kills small guys after charge/runs, instead doing damage by just being close. Max footprint of a wood has shrunk by a third.''

==Battalions==

===Forest Folk===
'''''A Branchwraith and three units of Dryads''''' ''140pts (520pts min -> 1,030pts max)''

Units can retreat and then still charge that turn.

Great for controlling the flow of combat. Essentially the opposite of Household. Stops your tar pits getting locked into combat with something you didn't want to, usually due to them charging first. Alternatively, if done correctly, you can bypass combat screens - charge into the screen one turn, then the following turn, retreat further up the board and charge your real target. Ignore the Branchwraith here, she's just included to reduce the number of drops.

''2019 Differences: Replaces the old ability that lets you take the entire Battalion off the table and then redeploy them close to your Wyldwoods.''

===Free Spirits===

'''''A Spirit of Durthu and three units of Kurnoth Hunters''''' ''140pts (1,080pts min -> 2,880pts max)''

Always rolls a 6 for a run.

Nice. Running instead of charging allows you to tanglethorn for save rerolls when the enemy charges in the following turn. You'll be wanting Scythes because you'll need the range on your tiny pile in. Don't use it to try and deepstrike Durthu or the like if board placement has denied you getting out any woods, as you'll now have lone units who can no longer shoot or charge until the next turn vulnerable to counterattack.

If you are taking these units, then you probably are also want the cheapest battleline you can get hold of, which is 3x5 Spites - and if you're doing ''that'', then Outcasts is 40 points cheaper. Anyone wanting three artefacts, then this and Outcasts together would work.

''2019 Differences: Much simpler than the old ability where you move twice but has to be closer to some scenery''

===Household===

'''''A vanilla Treelord, a Branchwych and a unit of Tree-Revenants''''' ''100pts (440pts min -> 780pts max)''

Units locked in combat with the Household cannot retreat.

That's an amazing ability for controlling the board, sadly the unit choices aren't the best. However, consider a blob of 30 freely teleporting Tree Revenants with 6" pile ins (and a 60pt hoard discount) and you're going to lock down whatever threats ''you'' want to for multiple turns until they chew through or die. Use the woods to throw your Treelord followed by Branchwych bomb to lock down a different unit elsewhere. Now consider how much six boxes of Revenants is going to cost to do this. Yeah.

''2019 Differences: The old version also had +1 Bravery, but that's gone now.''

===Lords of the Clan===

'''''Two to four Treelord Ancients and one to three normal Treelords''''' ''60pts (760pts min -> 1640 max)''

During your shooting phase, every enemy within 6" of 2+ Treelords, gets D3 mortals on a 2+ roll.

At 60 points, this is a bargain given it's only 10 more than a command point, and If you really want lots of trees then this is a no brainer. Ability requires you teleport deep strike in pairs, but you won't get those mortals until ''your'' next turn after charging (assuming the whole pair stays alive). Having to take two Ancients is the tax here - most the Ancient's abilities don't double up, leaving your second Ancient mostly as a Treelord with a much lower damage output (however, you do get the additional spell plus the choice of which Ancient to use for its abilities).
Being forced to take in pairs is a good as the stomp becomes much more reliable (from 50% to 75%), with the chance you can stomp a second enemy.
For the most use out of this you want two pairs of Ancient+Vanilla, but that uses up almost half your points and all your behemoths slots in a 2000pt game. Two Ancients and one Vanilla is easier to build around, but that magnifies the Ancient tax and neuters the battalion ability.
For pure damage output and survivability, Dreadwooding a large block of Kurnoth's is mathematically the better choice. However, two pairs of stomping Trees are much more flexible.
In addition, taking LOTC enables you to take a mixed battleline (say, one each of Spites, TreeRevs and Dryads) instead of the usual block of Outcasts or Forest Folk - or take both if you really want the artefacts/CPs.

''2019 Differences: Old ability was only for one name Treelord, was a wider range, but less reliable.''

===Outcasts===

'''''Three units of Spite-Revenants''''' ''100pts (280pts min -> 700pts max)''

Any enemy unit that fails battleshock within (not wholly within!) 3" loses an additional D3 models.

Remember that Spites lower enemy bravery too.
If you want the cheapest possible battleline plus battalion, then this is the choice to take, for just 280pts total - just don't expect them to last long.

''2019 Differences: This used to be a damage pulse based on enemy bravery.''

===Wargrove===

'''''One Lords of the Clan, three Households, three Forest Folks, one Free Spirits and one Outcasts.''''' ''80pts (5,240pts min -> 11,010pts max)''

Our only remaining super battalion. Allows you to place '''two''' Wyldwoods at the start of the game instead of one. Still, way too big to use unless you're playing 6000 point games.

''2019 Differences: Unchanged from the old battletome.''

==Army Building==

===1000 pts===

Two SC boxes and a box of Revenants get you a solid core. Convert one of the <del>useless</del> Branchwyches into a Branchwraith by stealing her scythe and pet. You will want more Dryads if you do this so the Wraith actually gets to do her job.

* Grove: Winterleaf
* Treelord Ancient (General, Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* Branchwych (The Dwellers Below)
* 30 Dryads
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* Treelord

Total: 990 pts

You can also replace the Treelord with a unit of Kurnoth Hunters (give them the Greatswords).

To upgrade from that, get a bag of newly-undercosted Spite Revenants and a guaranteed second Wood:

* Grove: Winterleaf or Dreadwood
* Treelord Ancient (General, Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Drycha Hamadreth (Deadly Harvest or The Dwellers Below)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* 20 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Tree-Revenants
* Soulsnare Shackles

Total: 1000 pts

If you got the Looncurse set (or if you prefer), you can also do this:

* Grove: Winterleaf
* Treelord Ancient (Grove artefact, Regrowth)
* Arch-Revenant (General)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 6 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatswords)

The Arch-Revenant can stay safe and buff the Hunters with her Command Ability thanks to Envoys of the Everqueen.

Alternatively, you can be a dick and bring a god to the table:

* Grove: Winterleaf or Dreadwood
* Alarielle (Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (General, Grove artefact, Throne of Vines)
* 20 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants

Total: 1000 pts

Can cut most of the Spite-Revenants for... something? Allied 3 Ishlaen guard? A Knight-Incantor? Open for suggestions, but if you do that, consider going groveless.

===2000 pts===

====Winterleaf starter List====
Two Wraiths (+spell reliability), Drycha (+regrowth), Hive, and blobs of Kurnoths with Arch Rev are a solid base for ''any'' list.
Winterleaf is a good pick as being very strong and the easiest-to-play grove.

If you played Sylvaneth before the recent changes, chances are you have a <del>forest</del> fair number of Dryads, Forest Folk puts them to good use:
* Grove: Winterleaf
* Battalion: Forest Folk
* Arch-Revenant (General, grove artefact)
* Drycha Hamadreth (Regrowth)
* Branchwraith (Spiritsong Stave, Throne of Vines)
* Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony)
* 30 Dryads
* 20 Dryads
* 10 Dryads
* 9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
* Spiteswarm Hive
*''Total: 1990 pts''

If you prefer less battleline (you'll most likely be getting +30-40 Dryads per game), then Outcasts gets you the cheapest battleline plus artefact. Simply swap Dryads and Forest Folk for:
* Battalion: Outcasts
* 5 Spite Revenants
* 5 Spite Revenants
* 5 Spite Revenants

This now leaves you with 440 points to play with. Possibilities include:
*6 Kurnoths and Skullroot spell?
*Durthu and 10 Dryads? And maybe switch to Harvestboon.
*3 Kurnoths, 5 Tree Revenants, +5 Spite Revenants to an existing block, and 10 Dryads?

====Dreadwood Teleportation====
Dreadwood lets you dodge a lot of mobility concerns that can occur with the new terrain rules - combined with up to +5 to charges and Envoys of the Everqueen, Kurnoth can deliver a punch wherever you want it.

* Grove: Dreadwood
* Battalion: Outcasts
* Arch-Revenant (General, grove artefact)
* Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)
* Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony)
* 30 Dryads
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 5 Spite-Revenants
* 9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
* 6 Kurnoth Hunters (Swords)
* Chronomatic Cogs
* Spiteswarm Hive
* Extra Command Point

Total: 1990 pts

==Allied Armies==

The problem with allies, is that they do not get the {{AOSKeyword|SYLVANETH}}-Keyword. Our Forests can and will turn on our allies if they get too close. This massively reduces their mobility, weakens our board control and potentially makes us lose our models without the enemy having to do anything.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Stormcast Eternals|Stormcast Eternals]]:''' You don't particularly need stormcast. Their play style is too different from traditional Sylvaneth play and overall they don't synergise too well. Perhaps with the upcoming Stormcast Sacrosanct chamber, something might be available to use well with Sylvaneth, but as of now don't bother. Stormcasts are just too slow to keep up with us and allies can't make up for this with Deep Strikes. Prosecutors might be a better option than the infantry on foot, but the would-be woefully under supported, due to the lack of Stormcast Heroes. Additionally, they have worse shooting than our (costlier) options and again, do not benefit from Stormcast specific abilities or commands.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Wanderers|Wanderers]]:''' Okayish, and fluffy which is important, however as previously mentioned above, you only have 200/400pts to spare, which simply isn't enough to gain any meaningful army support from the Wanderers - ''although with the recent warscroll and point changes in the Cities of Sigmar release, maybe there is something to look at here.'' Wanderers suffer from much the same problems as Stormcast. Everything they can do, we can do better, with everything they need, we can't provide. 200-400 points are not all that much and spending these on a Unit of Glade Guard and a Hero gives us, again, worse shooting and we can only heal and not revive Models. This basically means that the many single-wound models are nearly worthless fodder. Sisters of any variation are simply too expensive to be a viable choice for us and don't benefit us. Wasted points, that we could use better for Hunters.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Idoneth Deepkin|Idoneth Deepkin]]:''' The fish guys have lots of cross-unit synergies, which are of no use here. Consider the Akhelian Guards (Ishlaen and Morrsarr). Compared to the Kurnoths, they are faster at 14' and can fly (but can't use wyldwood teleporting and need to stay way from them too), they pack more punch (but are much more fragile) and they are cheaper too.
**Alternately, consider running a Deepkin army with the "Alliance of Wood and Sea" Battalion, giving you all the benefits of the Deepkin tides at the cost of having only one forest (for better and worse) via the Treelord Ancient's Silent Communion ability.

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Dispossessed|Dispossessed]]:''' (Only if general is {{AOSKeyword|IRONBARK}})

*'''[[Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Fyreslayers|Fyreslayers]]:''' (Only if general is {{AOSKeyword|IRONBARK}}): Surprisingly useful alliance despite not being common in the lore. The Fyreslayers bring a lot of Mortal Wounds to the table, especially if a Runefather or Runeson on Magmadroth is chosen. With Hearthguard Berserkers, bring a Fyerslayer hero along with them and they can eat Mortal Wounds for you, being able to resist them on a 4+.

==Buying Guide==

Sylvaneth is mixed in terms of unit price values. Some can be cheap, others horrendously expensive, but that's GW. A cliché recommendation would be the start collecting box. Sadly the Branchwych is of less use than she used to be.

Note that due to models coming from WFB, a box of Dryads has 16 models, so to get full use of them, you'll want two boxes giving you 3 dryad units plus 2 spare. Make these up as 3 Dryad Nymphs and 29 normal Dryads to give you full WYSIWYG flexibility of unit sizes. 5 boxes gets you a full usage with 80, which is probably enough unless you go full Dryad spam.

{{Age_of_Sigmar_Tactics}}

Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Destruction/Sons of Behemat

2020-10-10T00:22:01Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Why Play Sons Of Behemat? */

{{Age of Sigmar Faction|Faction=Sons of Behemat|Logo=Kraken-eater.jpg|Alliance=Destruction|Motto= Big and friendly these giants are not...}}

Three new, MASSIVE THICC BOIS, the biggest plastic GW kit so far, able to stare Archaon in the eye while he's on Dorghar; plus some regular gargants; are ready stomp on your face.

Up for pre-order ''this weekend'', more information has been trickling out, and there's plenty to go with.

==Why Play Sons Of Behemat?==
* 'Cuz they are fucken [[Awesome|GIANTS]]. Chicks dig drunken giants.
* Ultra elite army. In 2000pts min six models, max ten.
* No need to bother with that other faff other factions have to think about: No allies, no wizards (unless you take an item from the Takers Tribe), no endless spells, no battalions, no faction scenery, no special dice.
* In 40k your favorite army are Imperial Knights.
* You watched Attack on Titan and sympathized more with the half naked monsters than the humans (can’t say I blame you).

'''Pros:'''
* Getting your army built and painted will be really quick. Given they are basically oversized [[fa/tg/uys]], they are ripe for customization too.
* Rending attacks everywhere.
* Decent shooting attacks (including Drogg's halitosis).
* Single model units are immune to bravery checks. [[Ossiarch Bonereapers|Nagash's boney boys]] aren't the only faction to ignore bravery anymore.
* If you thought Nurgle was EXTRA THICC...
* Unspeakably beefy. All your giants have a bunch of wounds, with your mega-gargants having more wounds than the oversized HQs of other factions while being immune to instant death.
* Your faction acronym is SoB.

'''Cons:'''
* You're the AoS equivalent of Knight players. Get ready to donate a kidney or two.
* Just two kits. (Okay, one of those is amazing, and the other is ok)
* Everyone is a MONSTER, so good luck surviving specialist monster hunters. Other Destruction factions, especially Bonesplitterz Warclans and Beastclaw Raiders Mawtribes, will be your bane.
* Max one spell unbind makes you vulnerable to debuff spells and unable to stop your opponent buffing their troops. Not to mention said unbinding is limited to a single artifact for the Taker Tribe.
* Being ultra elite, you’re almost always bringing single digit models.
* No battalions means no one drop options and limited artifacts.
* Your faction acronym is SoB. [[Age_of_Sigmar/Tactics/Chaos/Slaves_to_Darkness|Could have been a lot worse...]]

==Rulebooks==
{{AOSRulebooks|tome=Sons of Behemat|points=Battletome Sons of Behemat or Generals Handbook 2020}}

==Allegiance Abilities==
===Battle Traits===
;Mightier Makes Rightier: For objectives,{{AOSKeyword|MEGA-GARGANTS}} count as 20 models, {{AOSKeyword|MANCRUSHER GARGANTS}} count as 10.

===Command Abilities===

==Tribes==
Each SoB army belongs to a tribe, dependant on choice of general.

===Stomper Tribes===
'''General''': Warstomper
*''Ability'': '''Getting Stuck In''': All {{AOSKeyword|MANCRUSHER GARGANT}}s attacks get +1 damage against units of 10+ models, or +2 against 20+
*''Command Ability'': '''Get a Move On, You Slackers!''': A {{AOSKeyword|MANCRUSHER GARGANT}} within 18" can run 6. At the Double but with greater range.
*''Command Ability'': '''Grab Those Rocks and Chuck 'em at Somethin'!''': All {{AOSKeyword|MANCRUSHER GARGANT}}s within 18" can chuck rocks (instead of just one)
*''Command Traits'': '''
*''Artefacts'':
#'''Ironweld Cestus''': Reroll failed Saves and deal a mortal wound on an unmodified save roll of 6.
#?
#?

===Breaker Tribe===
'''General''': Gatebreaker
*''Ability'': '''Fierce Loathings''': {{AOSKeyword|Gatebreaker mega-garagants}} and {{AOSKeyword|mancrusher garnants}} can roll a D6 or choose one of the following categories. Add 1 to their hit rolls against enemy units in the chosen category:
** '''Bossy Pants and Clever Clogs''': {{AOSKeyword|HERO}} or {{AOSKeyword|WIZARD}}.
** '''Idiots with Flags''': {{AOSKeyword|TOTEM}} or any unit with command models.
** '''Shiny 'Uns''': save characteristic better than 5+ that aren't a {{AOSKeyword|HERO}} or {{AOSKeyword|monster}}.
** '''Crowds''': units with 20 or more models.
** '''Wannabes''': {{AOSKeyword|monster}} or {{AOSKeyword|war machine}}.
** '''Piggybackers''': units with a mount that are not a {{AOSKeyword|monster}}.
*''Command Ability'': '''
*''Command Traits'': '''Breaking Down The Houses''': {{AOSKeyword|mancrusher garnants}} gain the Gatebreaker Smash Down ability (+1 hit against enemies on terrain and ability to destroy terrain)
*''Artefacts'':
#'''Kingslaughter Cowl''': Reroll wound rolls of 1 that target a Hero (or all wound rolls for the enemy General).
#?
#?

===Taker Tribe===
'''General''': Kraken-eater
*''Ability'': '''Get Rid of 'Em!''': For objectives,{{AOSKeyword|MEGA-GARGANTS}} count as 30 models, {{AOSKeyword|MANCRUSHER GARGANTS}} count as 15. If you're having trouble with the objectives game, then maybe this is for you. Centre a Mega on a 6" objective, and it's going to be tricky for your opponent to get 31 models into that circle.
*''Command Ability'': '''
*''Command Trait'': '''More Stuff For Me Collection''' : Roll a triumph every time you kill an enemy wielding an artefact. You're going trigger this once, maybe twice per battle, so not the best. However, if your opponent really doesn't want you gaining these, then it's going to force them to play defensively with their artefact wielders (or even cause them to bring non-optimal lists).
*''Artefacts'':
#'''Net of the Beast-Reaver''': Start of combat, on a 4+ roll, for one enemy monster, they get -1 to hit, you get +1 to hit
#'''Jaws of the Mogaldon''': Once per phase, reroll a failed hit, wound, or save.
#'''Glowy Lantern''': [[Awesome|Your Gargant is now a Wizard.]] He can cast Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolt in your Hero phase and unbind 1 enemy spell in their phase.
#?
#?
#?

==Warscrolls==
===Leaders===

All Mega-gargants have the following:
*35 wounds, with 12 wounds needed to drop from the top entry on warscroll, and even then they don't drop much. These guys are beasts! Sadly that thick leathery skin only gives 4+ save, and they still needs protection against the some of the biggest damage dealers in the game, which is tricky when you don't have many models for screens.
*Rend -3 attacks. Whilst not on all attacks, this flat out removes the chance of stopping attacks for anything with a 4+ or worse save. Don't underestimate it. Meanwhile, everything else has -1 or -2 rend.
*'''Son Of Behemat''': Auto kill abilities and spells instead just deal D6 mortals. Whilst it'd be hilarious to see an SoB fall wiped out this way, it's quite an essential auto-lose preventer.
*'''TIMBERRRR!''': When it dies, winner of a roll off choses a point 5" away. Every unit within 3", except {{AOSKeyword|Mega garagants}}, gets D3 mortals. Essentially it's a 50% chance of sending a few mortals at the guy that just killed you. If your enemy is fully within 2", then this isn't going to do anything (assume they were stood between his legs). Also potentially deadly for your single unit Mancrushers.

*'''Warstomper Mega-Gargant''' (480)
**For those who just want to hit stuff the hardest.

*'''Gatebreaker Mega-Gargant''' (490)
**Do you hate faction terrain like the [[Ossiarch Bonereapers|OBR Tithe Nexus]] or [[Sylvaneth|the constant sprouting Wyldwoods]]? Then brother, say hello to your new best friend!

*'''Kraken-eater Mega-Gargant''' (490)

===Battleline===
''Battleline in {{AOSKeyword|Sons of Behemat}} army and not counted as Behemoth. Maximum sized units count as 3 battleline units.''

*'''Mancrusher Gargants''' (180/480, min 1, max 3)

===Behemoth===
*'''Bonegrinder Gargant'''? (400pts) (Forgeworld)
''Only if {{AOSKeyword|sons of behemat}} keyword gets added to his warscroll''. Even then he'll be a difficult option to recommend. At 80 points lower than the poster boys (and he's not going to get a points change until the December FAQs), you won't be able to squeeze anything into that gap, except for a CP. Take two and you can get one extra Mancrusher, so ''maybe'' there's something there. And three Bonegrinders is impossible (as you need at least three Mancrushers for Batteline and a Mega-Gargant for your leader).

==Battalions==
None.

==Allies==
None.

==Mercenaries==
Mercenaries allow you to take a special named Sons of Behemat hero in a non Sons of Behemat army. One mercenary per list, with no other allies and restrictions depending on your allegiance - only destruction get a choice. Remember you're not getting any of those juicy SoB alliance abilities or tribe bonuses.

===Named Leaders===
*'''Bundo Whalebiter''' ''Order or Destruction''
A Kraken-eater mercenary. You can choose at the start of the Combat phase for him to fight at the end of the phase, in exchange for re-rolling failed hit rolls.

*'''One-Eyed Grunnok''' ''Chaos or Destruction''
A Warstomper mercenary. Reroll jump attacks of 1, plus enemies get -1 to hits on previous jump attacks of 6.

*'''Big Drogg Fort-Kicka''' ''Death or Destruction''
A Gatebreaker mercenary. He has a breath attack that attacks one unit within 3" at the end of the combat phase; roll a dice for each model in the unit and deal 1MW on a 6+.

==Tactics==

===List Building===
With SoB alliance you don't have much choice

====2000 points====
*Exactly 4 choices to make (one for each 500 point "slot")
*Min 6 models; max 10 models.
*Realistically, 4 or 6 drops - although you can get more.
*Realistically min 1920 points (or 1970 if you buy a CP) - although you can get down to 1860; max 2000 points.
Possible lists:

{|class="wikitable
!# !! Slot1 !! Slot2 !! Slot3 !! Slot4 !! #Points !! #Models (with MMR) !! #Drops || #Wounds || Buy CP?
|-
| 1 || 3x 1 Mancrusher || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1980, 1990, or 2000 || 6 (90) || 6 || 141 ||
|-
| 2 || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1920, 1930, 1940, or 1950 || 6 (90) || 4 || 141 || Y
|-
| 3 || 3x 1 Mancrusher || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1980, 1990, or 2000 || 8 (100) || 6 || 142 ||
|-
| 4 || 3 Mancrushers || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1920, 1930 or 1940 || 8 (100) || 4 || 142 || Y
|-
| 5 || 3x 1 Mancrusher || 3 Mancrushers || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1980 or 1990 || 10 (110) ||6 || 143 ||
|-
| 6 || 3 Mancrushers || 3 Mancrushers || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1920 or 1930 || 10 (110) || 4 || 143 || Y
|-
| ''7'' || colspan=2 | ''5x 1 Mancrusher'' || ''{{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}}'' || ''{{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}}'' || ''1860, 1870 or 1880'' || ''7 (90)'' || ''7'' || 130|| ''Y''
|-
| ''8'' || colspan=2 | ''5x 1 Mancrusher'' || ''3 Mancrushers'' || ''{{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}}'' || ''1860 or 1870'' || ''9 (100)'' || ''7'' || 131 || ''Y''
|-
| ''9'' || colspan=3 | ''8x 1 Mancrusher'' || ''{{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}}'' || ''1920 or 1930'' || ''9 (100)'' || ''9'' || 131 || ''Y''

|}
*Mancrushers: One set of three can be split however you like, but due to needing the group discount, the rest must be taken in threes.
**Alternatively, if you ''really'' want all your Mancrushers to be solo you could drop one. Generally not worth it, but might be feasible with 8, as that might give you some extra board control. With 5 you've got a lot of wasted points left over. Also, you're maximising number of drops.
*This assumes the Bonegrinder isn't a SoB unit. If we assume it is:
{|class="wikitable
!# !! Slot1 !! Slot2 !! Slot3 !! Slot4 !! #Points !! #Models !! #Drops || Buy CP?
|-
| 1 || 3x 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1900 or 1910 || 6 || 6 || Y
|-
| 2 || 3 Mancrushers || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1860 or 1870 || 6 || 4 || Y
|-
| 3 || 3x 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1830 || 6 || 6 || Y
|-
| 4 || 3 Mancrushers and 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1940 or 1950 || 7 || 5 || Y
|-
| 5 || 4x 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 2000 || 7 || 7 ||
|-
| 6 || colspan=2 | 6x 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1960 or 1970 || 8 || 8 ||
|-
| 7 || 3 Mancrushers || 3x 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1900 or 1910 || 8 || 6 || Y
|-
| 8 || 3 Mancrushers || 3 Mancrushers || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1840 or 1850 || 8 || 4 || Y

|}

====1000 points====
For 1000 points you just have two slots, and a very limited choice. And, unless you really want to drop a mancrusher to get that extra CP, realistically you're limited to a single load out. Additionally, you can't take a Bonegrinder, even if it gains the keyword.

{|class="wikitable
!# !! Slot1 !! Slot2 !! #Points !! #Models (with MMR) !! #Drops || #Wounds || Buy CP?
|-
| 1 || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 960 or 970 || 4 (50) || 2 || 71 ||
|-
| 2 || 2x 1 Mancrusher || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 840 or 850 || 3 (40) || 3 || 59 || Y
|-
|}

{{Age_of_Sigmar_Tactics}}

Age of Sigmar/Tactics/Destruction/Sons of Behemat

2020-10-10T00:21:02Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Why Play Sons Of Behemat? */

{{Age of Sigmar Faction|Faction=Sons of Behemat|Logo=Kraken-eater.jpg|Alliance=Destruction|Motto= Big and friendly these giants are not...}}

Three new, MASSIVE THICC BOIS, the biggest plastic GW kit so far, able to stare Archaon in the eye while he's on Dorghar; plus some regular gargants; are ready stomp on your face.

Up for pre-order ''this weekend'', more information has been trickling out, and there's plenty to go with.

==Why Play Sons Of Behemat?==
* 'Cuz they are fucken [[Awesome|GIANTS]]. Chicks dig drunken giants.
* Ultra elite army. In 2000pts min six models, max ten.
* No need to bother with that other faff other factions have to think about: No allies, no wizards (unless you take a KRAKEN-EATERS special item), no endless spells, no battalions, no faction scenery, no special dice.
* In 40k your favorite army are Imperial Knights.
* You watched Attack on Titan and sympathized more with the half naked monsters than the humans (can’t say I blame you).

'''Pros:'''
* Getting your army built and painted will be really quick. Given they are basically oversized [[fa/tg/uys]], they are ripe for customization too.
* Rending attacks everywhere.
* Decent shooting attacks (including Drogg's halitosis).
* Single model units are immune to bravery checks. [[Ossiarch Bonereapers|Nagash's boney boys]] aren't the only faction to ignore bravery anymore.
* If you thought Nurgle was EXTRA THICC...
* Unspeakably beefy. All your giants have a bunch of wounds, with your mega-gargants having more wounds than the oversized HQs of other factions while being immune to instant death.
* Your faction acronym is SoB.

'''Cons:'''
* You're the AoS equivalent of Knight players. Get ready to donate a kidney or two.
* Just two kits. (Okay, one of those is amazing, and the other is ok)
* Everyone is a MONSTER, so good luck surviving specialist monster hunters. Other Destruction factions, especially Bonesplitterz Warclans and Beastclaw Raiders Mawtribes, will be your bane.
* Max one spell unbind makes you vulnerable to debuff spells and unable to stop your opponent buffing their troops. Not to mention said unbinding is limited to a single artifact for the Taker Tribe or the Kraken-Eater Tribe.
* Being ultra elite, you’re almost always bringing single digit models.
* No battalions means no one drop options and limited artifacts.
* Your faction acronym is SoB. [[Age_of_Sigmar/Tactics/Chaos/Slaves_to_Darkness|Could have been a lot worse...]]

==Rulebooks==
{{AOSRulebooks|tome=Sons of Behemat|points=Battletome Sons of Behemat or Generals Handbook 2020}}

==Allegiance Abilities==
===Battle Traits===
;Mightier Makes Rightier: For objectives,{{AOSKeyword|MEGA-GARGANTS}} count as 20 models, {{AOSKeyword|MANCRUSHER GARGANTS}} count as 10.

===Command Abilities===

==Tribes==
Each SoB army belongs to a tribe, dependant on choice of general.

===Stomper Tribes===
'''General''': Warstomper
*''Ability'': '''Getting Stuck In''': All {{AOSKeyword|MANCRUSHER GARGANT}}s attacks get +1 damage against units of 10+ models, or +2 against 20+
*''Command Ability'': '''Get a Move On, You Slackers!''': A {{AOSKeyword|MANCRUSHER GARGANT}} within 18" can run 6. At the Double but with greater range.
*''Command Ability'': '''Grab Those Rocks and Chuck 'em at Somethin'!''': All {{AOSKeyword|MANCRUSHER GARGANT}}s within 18" can chuck rocks (instead of just one)
*''Command Traits'': '''
*''Artefacts'':
#'''Ironweld Cestus''': Reroll failed Saves and deal a mortal wound on an unmodified save roll of 6.
#?
#?

===Breaker Tribe===
'''General''': Gatebreaker
*''Ability'': '''Fierce Loathings''': {{AOSKeyword|Gatebreaker mega-garagants}} and {{AOSKeyword|mancrusher garnants}} can roll a D6 or choose one of the following categories. Add 1 to their hit rolls against enemy units in the chosen category:
** '''Bossy Pants and Clever Clogs''': {{AOSKeyword|HERO}} or {{AOSKeyword|WIZARD}}.
** '''Idiots with Flags''': {{AOSKeyword|TOTEM}} or any unit with command models.
** '''Shiny 'Uns''': save characteristic better than 5+ that aren't a {{AOSKeyword|HERO}} or {{AOSKeyword|monster}}.
** '''Crowds''': units with 20 or more models.
** '''Wannabes''': {{AOSKeyword|monster}} or {{AOSKeyword|war machine}}.
** '''Piggybackers''': units with a mount that are not a {{AOSKeyword|monster}}.
*''Command Ability'': '''
*''Command Traits'': '''Breaking Down The Houses''': {{AOSKeyword|mancrusher garnants}} gain the Gatebreaker Smash Down ability (+1 hit against enemies on terrain and ability to destroy terrain)
*''Artefacts'':
#'''Kingslaughter Cowl''': Reroll wound rolls of 1 that target a Hero (or all wound rolls for the enemy General).
#?
#?

===Taker Tribe===
'''General''': Kraken-eater
*''Ability'': '''Get Rid of 'Em!''': For objectives,{{AOSKeyword|MEGA-GARGANTS}} count as 30 models, {{AOSKeyword|MANCRUSHER GARGANTS}} count as 15. If you're having trouble with the objectives game, then maybe this is for you. Centre a Mega on a 6" objective, and it's going to be tricky for your opponent to get 31 models into that circle.
*''Command Ability'': '''
*''Command Trait'': '''More Stuff For Me Collection''' : Roll a triumph every time you kill an enemy wielding an artefact. You're going trigger this once, maybe twice per battle, so not the best. However, if your opponent really doesn't want you gaining these, then it's going to force them to play defensively with their artefact wielders (or even cause them to bring non-optimal lists).
*''Artefacts'':
#'''Net of the Beast-Reaver''': Start of combat, on a 4+ roll, for one enemy monster, they get -1 to hit, you get +1 to hit
#'''Jaws of the Mogaldon''': Once per phase, reroll a failed hit, wound, or save.
#'''Glowy Lantern''': [[Awesome|Your Gargant is now a Wizard.]] He can cast Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolt in your Hero phase and unbind 1 enemy spell in their phase.
#?
#?
#?

==Warscrolls==
===Leaders===

All Mega-gargants have the following:
*35 wounds, with 12 wounds needed to drop from the top entry on warscroll, and even then they don't drop much. These guys are beasts! Sadly that thick leathery skin only gives 4+ save, and they still needs protection against the some of the biggest damage dealers in the game, which is tricky when you don't have many models for screens.
*Rend -3 attacks. Whilst not on all attacks, this flat out removes the chance of stopping attacks for anything with a 4+ or worse save. Don't underestimate it. Meanwhile, everything else has -1 or -2 rend.
*'''Son Of Behemat''': Auto kill abilities and spells instead just deal D6 mortals. Whilst it'd be hilarious to see an SoB fall wiped out this way, it's quite an essential auto-lose preventer.
*'''TIMBERRRR!''': When it dies, winner of a roll off choses a point 5" away. Every unit within 3", except {{AOSKeyword|Mega garagants}}, gets D3 mortals. Essentially it's a 50% chance of sending a few mortals at the guy that just killed you. If your enemy is fully within 2", then this isn't going to do anything (assume they were stood between his legs). Also potentially deadly for your single unit Mancrushers.

*'''Warstomper Mega-Gargant''' (480)
**For those who just want to hit stuff the hardest.

*'''Gatebreaker Mega-Gargant''' (490)
**Do you hate faction terrain like the [[Ossiarch Bonereapers|OBR Tithe Nexus]] or [[Sylvaneth|the constant sprouting Wyldwoods]]? Then brother, say hello to your new best friend!

*'''Kraken-eater Mega-Gargant''' (490)

===Battleline===
''Battleline in {{AOSKeyword|Sons of Behemat}} army and not counted as Behemoth. Maximum sized units count as 3 battleline units.''

*'''Mancrusher Gargants''' (180/480, min 1, max 3)

===Behemoth===
*'''Bonegrinder Gargant'''? (400pts) (Forgeworld)
''Only if {{AOSKeyword|sons of behemat}} keyword gets added to his warscroll''. Even then he'll be a difficult option to recommend. At 80 points lower than the poster boys (and he's not going to get a points change until the December FAQs), you won't be able to squeeze anything into that gap, except for a CP. Take two and you can get one extra Mancrusher, so ''maybe'' there's something there. And three Bonegrinders is impossible (as you need at least three Mancrushers for Batteline and a Mega-Gargant for your leader).

==Battalions==
None.

==Allies==
None.

==Mercenaries==
Mercenaries allow you to take a special named Sons of Behemat hero in a non Sons of Behemat army. One mercenary per list, with no other allies and restrictions depending on your allegiance - only destruction get a choice. Remember you're not getting any of those juicy SoB alliance abilities or tribe bonuses.

===Named Leaders===
*'''Bundo Whalebiter''' ''Order or Destruction''
A Kraken-eater mercenary. You can choose at the start of the Combat phase for him to fight at the end of the phase, in exchange for re-rolling failed hit rolls.

*'''One-Eyed Grunnok''' ''Chaos or Destruction''
A Warstomper mercenary. Reroll jump attacks of 1, plus enemies get -1 to hits on previous jump attacks of 6.

*'''Big Drogg Fort-Kicka''' ''Death or Destruction''
A Gatebreaker mercenary. He has a breath attack that attacks one unit within 3" at the end of the combat phase; roll a dice for each model in the unit and deal 1MW on a 6+.

==Tactics==

===List Building===
With SoB alliance you don't have much choice

====2000 points====
*Exactly 4 choices to make (one for each 500 point "slot")
*Min 6 models; max 10 models.
*Realistically, 4 or 6 drops - although you can get more.
*Realistically min 1920 points (or 1970 if you buy a CP) - although you can get down to 1860; max 2000 points.
Possible lists:

{|class="wikitable
!# !! Slot1 !! Slot2 !! Slot3 !! Slot4 !! #Points !! #Models (with MMR) !! #Drops || #Wounds || Buy CP?
|-
| 1 || 3x 1 Mancrusher || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1980, 1990, or 2000 || 6 (90) || 6 || 141 ||
|-
| 2 || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1920, 1930, 1940, or 1950 || 6 (90) || 4 || 141 || Y
|-
| 3 || 3x 1 Mancrusher || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1980, 1990, or 2000 || 8 (100) || 6 || 142 ||
|-
| 4 || 3 Mancrushers || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1920, 1930 or 1940 || 8 (100) || 4 || 142 || Y
|-
| 5 || 3x 1 Mancrusher || 3 Mancrushers || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1980 or 1990 || 10 (110) ||6 || 143 ||
|-
| 6 || 3 Mancrushers || 3 Mancrushers || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1920 or 1930 || 10 (110) || 4 || 143 || Y
|-
| ''7'' || colspan=2 | ''5x 1 Mancrusher'' || ''{{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}}'' || ''{{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}}'' || ''1860, 1870 or 1880'' || ''7 (90)'' || ''7'' || 130|| ''Y''
|-
| ''8'' || colspan=2 | ''5x 1 Mancrusher'' || ''3 Mancrushers'' || ''{{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}}'' || ''1860 or 1870'' || ''9 (100)'' || ''7'' || 131 || ''Y''
|-
| ''9'' || colspan=3 | ''8x 1 Mancrusher'' || ''{{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}}'' || ''1920 or 1930'' || ''9 (100)'' || ''9'' || 131 || ''Y''

|}
*Mancrushers: One set of three can be split however you like, but due to needing the group discount, the rest must be taken in threes.
**Alternatively, if you ''really'' want all your Mancrushers to be solo you could drop one. Generally not worth it, but might be feasible with 8, as that might give you some extra board control. With 5 you've got a lot of wasted points left over. Also, you're maximising number of drops.
*This assumes the Bonegrinder isn't a SoB unit. If we assume it is:
{|class="wikitable
!# !! Slot1 !! Slot2 !! Slot3 !! Slot4 !! #Points !! #Models !! #Drops || Buy CP?
|-
| 1 || 3x 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1900 or 1910 || 6 || 6 || Y
|-
| 2 || 3 Mancrushers || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1860 or 1870 || 6 || 4 || Y
|-
| 3 || 3x 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1830 || 6 || 6 || Y
|-
| 4 || 3 Mancrushers and 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1940 or 1950 || 7 || 5 || Y
|-
| 5 || 4x 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 2000 || 7 || 7 ||
|-
| 6 || colspan=2 | 6x 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1960 or 1970 || 8 || 8 ||
|-
| 7 || 3 Mancrushers || 3x 1 Mancrusher || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1900 or 1910 || 8 || 6 || Y
|-
| 8 || 3 Mancrushers || 3 Mancrushers || '''Bonegrinder''' || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 1840 or 1850 || 8 || 4 || Y

|}

====1000 points====
For 1000 points you just have two slots, and a very limited choice. And, unless you really want to drop a mancrusher to get that extra CP, realistically you're limited to a single load out. Additionally, you can't take a Bonegrinder, even if it gains the keyword.

{|class="wikitable
!# !! Slot1 !! Slot2 !! #Points !! #Models (with MMR) !! #Drops || #Wounds || Buy CP?
|-
| 1 || 3 Mancrushers || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 960 or 970 || 4 (50) || 2 || 71 ||
|-
| 2 || 2x 1 Mancrusher || {{color|saddlebrown|Mega-Gargant}} || 840 or 850 || 3 (40) || 3 || 59 || Y
|-
|}

{{Age_of_Sigmar_Tactics}}

Edgy

2020-10-09T10:41:47Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Notable Edgelords */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people trying too hard (and sometimes too aggressively) to make things more tragic, [[grimdark]], controversial or cool. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™", such as big business, law enforcement and organized religion), are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off. The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying.

==Notable Edgelords==

*[[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
*The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer.
** The ultimate example of "pointless edge" with this character is writer Garth Ennis' (and Ennis himself is quite the edgelord, just look at the original comic version of The Boys) professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"] (with Ennis recycling the Punisher's arc here for Billy Butcher in The Boys).
*The Joker, depending on the writer. In particular, look at Heath Ledger's, Joaquin Phoenix's and Jared Leto's takes on him.
** However, both Ledger's and Phoenix's Joker portrayals were "edge with a point". Ledger's Joker was an exploration of human evils regarding terrorism and the various morality problems in dealing with it. Likewise for Phoenix's Joker, except the exploration was on the Origins of Evil. Jared Leto's Joker, on the other hand, was almost textbook pointless "Edgelord".
*[[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
*Some [[World of Darkness]] characters, particularly Sabbat or Baali.
*Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
** If you want the textbook definition of "pointless edge", go look up [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** And in the game ''Sonic Forces'', which actually lets you play as your OC through a custom avatar, the villain Infinite is a parody of edgy villain sue characters.
*Several in [[World of Warcraft]]. Character-wise the worst offenders are - in ascending order - Illidan Stormrage (in ''"Burning Crusade"'' and the second half of ''"Legion"''), Deathwing (in ''"Cataclysm"'') and Sylvanas Windrunner (the entirety of World of Warcraft). Others include several Death Knights and lots of the Demon Hunters and Forsaken (even their faction names are edgy).
*Several characters from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]], depending on the books or the TV adaptation. Examples from both include Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton.
*Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
*Reaper from Overwatch
*[[Blackguard]]s
* Warhammer 40k has so, so many there's entire edgelord ''factions'', such as the [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]], the [[Black Templars]] and [[Dark Eldar]] (DE get extra points for their love of selfishness and torture fetishes). Character examples include Rogal Dorn, Konrad Cruze, Phoenix Lord Maugan Ra, Urien Rakarth and Drazhar.
* Warhammer Fantasy, similar to above but to a lesser degree. Notable examples here include [[Valnir|Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
*[[Malal]]. As if the Chaos gods' emotional tantrums are not enough, there exists this guy who out-hates everyone, including himself, with servants who are tougher and stronger than theirs.
*Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
*[[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to edgy nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Edgy

2020-10-09T10:40:03Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Notable Edgelords */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people trying too hard (and sometimes too aggressively) to make things more tragic, [[grimdark]], controversial or cool. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™", such as big business, law enforcement and organized religion), are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off. The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying.

==Notable Edgelords==

*[[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
*The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer.
** The ultimate example of "pointless edge" with this character is writer Garth Ennis' (and Ennis himself is quite the edgelord, just look at the original comic version of The Boys and the middle finger to religious people that is Preacher) professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"] (with Ennis recycling the Punisher's arc here for Billy Butcher in The Boys).
*The Joker, depending on the writer. In particular, look at Heath Ledger's, Joaquin Phoenix's and Jared Leto's takes on him.
** However, both Ledger's and Phoenix's Joker portrayals were "edge with a point". Ledger's Joker was an exploration of human evils regarding terrorism and the various morality problems in dealing with it. Likewise for Phoenix's Joker, except the exploration was on the Origins of Evil. Jared Leto's Joker, on the other hand, was almost textbook pointless "Edgelord".
*[[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
*Some [[World of Darkness]] characters, particularly Sabbat or Baali.
*Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
** If you want the textbook definition of "pointless edge", go look up [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** And in the game ''Sonic Forces'', which actually lets you play as your OC through a custom avatar, the villain Infinite is a parody of edgy villain sue characters.
*Several in [[World of Warcraft]]. Character-wise the worst offenders are - in ascending order - Illidan Stormrage (in ''"Burning Crusade"'' and the second half of ''"Legion"''), Deathwing (in ''"Cataclysm"'') and Sylvanas Windrunner (the entirety of World of Warcraft). Others include several Death Knights and lots of the Demon Hunters and Forsaken (even their faction names are edgy).
*Several characters from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]], depending on the books or the TV adaptation. Examples from both include Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton.
*Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
*Reaper from Overwatch
*[[Blackguard]]s
* Warhammer 40k has so, so many there's entire edgelord ''factions'', such as the [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]], the [[Black Templars]] and [[Dark Eldar]] (DE get extra points for their love of selfishness and torture fetishes). Character examples include Rogal Dorn, Konrad Cruze, Phoenix Lord Maugan Ra, Urien Rakarth and Drazhar.
* Warhammer Fantasy, similar to above but to a lesser degree. Notable examples here include [[Valnir|Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
*[[Malal]]. As if the Chaos gods' emotional tantrums are not enough, there exists this guy who out-hates everyone, including himself, with servants who are tougher and stronger than theirs.
*Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
*[[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to edgy nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Edgy

2020-10-09T10:27:41Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Notable Edgelords */

List of Mary Sues

2020-10-09T10:25:14Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Mary Sues Case Studies */

{{fail}}
{{flamewar}}
{{Heresy}}

There are too many fucking [[Mary Sues]] in our games and fiction. We know it, and we love to complain about it, because it makes us feel a little better to call a spade a shovel. The original purpose of this list is to provide examples so the phenomenon can be studied, identified and - as a result of the latter - avoided.

(Note: please post Mary Sues in alphabetical order, so they don't fight about who's the better Mary-Sue. Also, this is about fictional characters, so while Canon Sues are acceptable, no real-life examples (even if there is such person named <s>Mary Sue AKA the Scientology founder's wife</s> I'm just adding that for fun). For the sake of peace, religious figures [and possibly mythological characters; particularly when they're from original mythologies] are real-life examples. Also, any characters added to the list without justifying reasons will be removed from this page. If you're going to add a race, please use the list below this one.

==Mary Sues Case Studies==
{{Plot Armour}}
* [[Alice]] from the in-name-only ''[[Resident Evil]]'' movies: A character created for the movies who started out as corporate spy, she has superpowers and is <s>presented as</s> ENTIRELY invincible. She manages to becomes an even bigger Sue when she loses said superpowers yet continues to obliterate armies unscathed. The film refuses to even let other characters do anything but get rescued by her, she's worse than characters written by [[Matthew Ward]]. Later films even gave her clones to explain why she's still in the films. On top of all this, the bitch is played by the director's wife; she's his perfect Mary Sue waifu insert and she's literally sleeping with him to get the job. Don't forget that she dual-wields katanas. And shotguns. And probably Desert Eagles, too.

* Andrew "Ender" Wiggin from Orson Scott Card's Enderverse, and a blatant (almost comical to a serious reader) example at that. What's worse: he only becomes more of this as the story and the books progress. It's even worse in the 2013 movie. At least the books gave the other characters more depth, Ender's feats took more time to achieve, and it contained some POV's that weren't of or about Ender.
** Ender's siblings Valentine and Peter. Ender's sister is a self righteous prig who is only overshadowed by her obnoxious, sociopathic brothers. Peter, Ender's older brother, is even worse. He's a low functioning sociopath, [[What|but intelligent enough that, as a child, he comes up with sophisticated political philosophies that wow academic circles. As an adult, they prove so sophisticated that he's appointed Political Leader of Earth. Despite the fact that a sociopath with absolute power would become a dangerous tyrant as soon as someone refused to do what they say, he doesn't mess up and dies being hailed as a great ruler]]. Yes, this really happens.

* [[Batman]] in an unskilled author's hands. He's a handsome human billionaire who's the pinnacle of human physical prowess and manages to defeat superpowered beings simply because "he had time to prepare" (with few thinking "why don't his opponents also use that time to prepare?"). On top of this he has LITERAL PLOT ARMOR; one of the DC editorial mandates is that Batman is not allowed to be truly defeated (he's usually too popular and has a presence in too much of the DC Universe to be allowed the downtime by editorial, unless it's part of a major storyline such as Knightfall). Because of this a certain tendency for Batman to turn into a Mary Sue is well documented (Read JLA: Act of God and weep; that story was all about starting the First Church of Batman. Or hell, check out the Dark Nights: Metal storyline, where a bunch of Evil Batmen who are variants on an existing superhero attack the DCU as opposed to, say, just doing a whole Evil Justice League like they have multiple times before). While Batman does have plot armor (nearly no one thinks to just shoot him when they get the chance and the few times they do he escapes, and he's never unexpectedly engaged by superhuman opponents who could easily beat him - like Darkseid), the same can be said for other non-superpowered heroes. That being said, there are many ways of adding dramatic tension to such a foregone conclusion situation, and the above mandate only includes actual defeat, so Batman is allowed to fail and make mistakes in certain situations or the villain can escape to cause trouble even after their plan is thwarted, which also helps lessen the Bat-Sue Factor.

* [[Edgy|Billy Butcher from "The Boys"]] (comics and show, especially the comics) is a prime example of a Jerk Sue (An unsympathetic character nevertheless favored in the story, [[TVTropes|according to our frenemeies]]). A superpower-hating vigilante because a "super" raped and killed his wife ("There's a difference between having a sympathetic backstory and actually being sympathetic"), Billy is half Punisher-knock-off, half Author Avatar for Garth Ennis. While most superheroes in this series are notorious for being corporate sellouts who often abuse their powers and sponsorships, Billy is clearly equally motivated by personal prejudice against people with superpowers (something he shares with the author like his prejudice towards religion, especially Christianity; it's no coincidence that Billy's an atheist while the antagonist Homelander has a side job as a Christian Pastor). While Billy does help the protagonist Hughie try to get justice for his girlfriend’s death by superhero collateral damage, Billy's reasons are selfish and he's also an edgelord (mean-spirited? check. violent? check. dark clothes? check. created by edgelord author? check. revoles around attacking "The Man"? that's a big check!), and nearly turns on Hughie when Hughie starts dating the superhero defector Starlight, then flip-flops as the plot pretends to avert a cliché storyline before playing it straight. Even becoming a villain via wanting to genocide everyone with superpowers after he gets them only adds "Villain Sue" to the list, as Billy only loses in the end because he chooses to. He’s also consistently never allowed to be wrong, as any time a character has something to say about Billy or his actions, he has something to throw back at them proving they’re actually wrong due to author fiat ensuring Billy only argues against strawmen. Goes to show that making a Mary Sue an edgelord is just as repellent as the gratingly sweet opposite, especially when they’re also pushing the author's views.

* Caius Ballad, the antagonist of ''Final Fantasy XIII-2''. Impractical overdesigned costume? Check. Impractical giant, overdesigned sword? Check. Purple hair? Check. Story-breaking powers? Check. Can't be beaten? Check. Openly called the most powerful ''Final Fantasy'' villain ever by his creator? Check. The only mitigating feature this fool has is that his English VA is Liam O'Brien.

* Darkseid from DC Comics is a rare case where people actually ''like'' someone for being a Sue. He wasn't one at the start of his career - Jack Kirby conceived him as a paper tiger who, for all his grandiose plans and ambitions, was only powerful if people feared him and could be beaten up by two street thugs who didn't know who he was, not anticipating that fans might prefer a villain who was really as intrinsically powerful as Darkseid claimed to be. He's strong and tough enough to go toe-to-toe with Superman, he has laser eyes that can do whatever he wants them to (including killing people instantly or bringing them back to life), he's a masterful schemer who knows all about setting up gambits where he wins no matter what and striking deals with easy ways around them he doesn't mention, most of his minions rival the Justice League in power and on top of all that he's the ruler of an entire planet that reliably goes to shit when he's not around to slap it into shape and sometimes a wide-reaching galactic empire. Despite all this Villain Sue-ness, any attempts to nerf him or bring him down to a more realistic villain level are met with backlash and outrage, and his most celebrated storyline in recent comics history is Final Crisis, in which the heroes required a time-travelling, god-killing bullet to defeat him and he actually forced Batman to abandon his rule against killing. The message is clear: Darkseid is DC's ultimate villain (or close enough to that status that the number of people higher than him can be counted on a hand or two/ doesn't require literal divine intervention etc. to defeat and thus retaining a meaningful conflict) and the fans won't settle for anything less.
** There's a reason for this, by the way: Darkseid and his court neatly fill the archetypal niche of embodiments of "the fucked up things people do when you give them power", with, for example, Gods of Child Abuse and of Torture as two of his chief henchmen. If you're going to have a hero who's about Hope and positive, creative or protective Aspirations (see: Superman, Flash, etc.), a villain who embodies the crushing of hope and negative, destructive Aspirations is incredibly useful. Making such a character a paper tiger can be made to work (see the Crimson King, under Special Cases), but is going to be unsatisfying, usually deeply so.

* Divis Mal from the RPG [[Aberrant]]. Oh, where to begin? Well, first of all on top of being the absolute, balls-out, most powerful Aberrant in the setting, ever, he's super smart, plans for everything, never loses ''no matter what the players do'', and has an ideology that can basically be described as "like Magneto, only ''right''. About ''everything.''" He's also in a loving relationship with a super-attractive partner who is ''also'' super-powerful, and his enemies are all stupid and happen to be straw-stuffed right-wing stereotypes because of course they are. He also serves as a thinly-veiled self-insert fanfic character for the lead game designer (a gay man with issues), and said designer once claimed that the title of the game referred to ''him specifically''. It was all the sequel game could do to take the piss out of all the problems he caused.

* Dr. Doom, depending on the writer. It doesn't help that he's a genius and self-made tycoon with a tragic past, who keeps getting his deaths retconned as body doubles (naming the infamous "Actually a Doombot" trope). Worst case scenarios are when he's written by somebody that forgets that he's a VILLAIN and depicts his rule over Latveria as unrealistically benign, and makes it look like the superheroes are wrong for trying to keep him from taking over the world.

* Elizabeth from ''Bioshock Infinite''. Plot-sustaining power (the key to the whole plot literally rests in her hands), cannot be harmed, <s>makes a grown veteran of war look like an idiot child</s> only if you suck at the game... Regardless, she is routinely placed in easily escapable situations for the pure purpose of being saved when she can plausibly save herself, and makes none of the major (or minor) mistakes in the game. While some claim that she greatly dislikes violence, especially killing, individual interpretations vary depending on whether you view her murders as character arc-defining. To make her comparable to Sues like Lightning and Alice, Ken Levin told the trolls who [[rule 34|34'd]] his perfect wife purpose, which result in a hilarious reverse psychology that gave Ken Levin [[promotions|what he wanted]]. She even gets to be tied into how Fontaine got Jack's (bioshock 1 mc) command code in the first bioshock. Way to ruin the franchise with some conventional plot device.

*[[Elminster]], who is currently having a threesome with the goddess of magic and rad boobies and his adopted super-hot albino elf daughter while simultaneously beating the god of murder in a sword fight with one hand and the god of slavery in a magic fight with the other. Also, he's like a million years old and looks it. Ed Greenwood's self-insert character in the [[Forgotten Realms]], and a big source of "Why doesn't he just do this for us?" questions whenever he appears in questlines. Also, along with the gods of the setting and the Harpers, he's one of the reasons why the Forgotten Realms are in [[Medieval Stasis]].
**Ironically he didn't start out originally like this. Back at the beginning of D&D, Elminster wasn't a massive Mary Sue. Believe it or not, he simply used to be a maxed-out wizard with some additional abilities and stuff that appeared as a Deus Ex Machina in case players had an encounter that was too difficult to overcome, much like Gandalf in [[The Hobbit]].

*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TedsiCaV2B4 Empress Theresa] is a good example of the "waifu" theory of Mary Sues and the Doyalist definition of Mary Sues, where the author's relationship to the character is the defining factor. Short version: Deranged author who can't take criticism creates his perfect waifu, hands her the world, and refuses to edit the resulting masterpiece, and posts the result for sale on Amazon. Criticism results, which in turn results in internet arguments on a scale that is ''amazing'' (by themselves, they dwarf all of the arguments and criticisms of the Twilight franchise put together, with the unsettling add-on that this is all the author's mindset).

*Every author self-insert. Especially those found in high-school writing assignments.

*Green Lanterns from Earth, especially Hal Jordan. All the human Green Lanterns are regularly shown to be the best Lanterns in the core because they ALL have indomitable willpower, skill, and courage, surpassing others who have been in the corps for decades. Most other lanterns exist only to be killed off as a means of showing how dangerous a threat is. They're only ever effective when they are helping the Human ones. The most Green Lanterns ever killed was during the Emerald Twilight story arc and they were killed by, you guessed it, Hal Jordan.

*Haoh from Shaman King. If there is any villain that can truly be called a Mary Sue, it's him, most other villains with this accusation still get defeated. Haoh not only proves invincible throughout the whole series, able to easily pull of feats that are impossible for everybody else, he also has the ability to revive himself if killed, meaning even if the heroes beat him, which they state is impossible in a straight-up fight, it would be pointless, because he'd just back even stronger. Worse is that he goes around saying how awful humans and everyone, even the writer, seems to agree with him because the series ends with him winning, only delaying his plans to kill humanity because reasons, and gets away with a number of atrocities that would make numerous the [[Warriors Of Chaos]] jealous.

*IG-88 in the ''Star Wars'' expanded universe, given that he easily breaks into the second Death Star and uploads his personality into it and takes control with nobody noticing, and before that single-handedly took over a planet.

*[[James Bond]]. To what degree varies, but the Roger Moore version is the worst offender: he's unbeatable at just about everything, never loses his composure, a ladies' man to an unrealistic degree (even lesbians and villains who stand for everything he opposes switch sides after a dicking from Bond, not to mention that time he had sex with a lesbian was questionable consent at best...so Bond gets away with actual sexual assault if not outright rape), implausibly intelligent, a crack shot, and basically unkillable. In the books, he is an unlikable git and an alcoholic, yet still gets shit done.

*James T. Kirk of [[Star Trek]], but only when written by William Shatner. While in TOS, Roddenberry himself outright stated Kirk was his Author Avatar and that he wanted the show to have the ambiance of Kirk being able to have any woman he desired, Kirk was still allowed to occasionally fail or make mistakes in certain situations. For other non-Shatner written works, the Suedom factor is kept under control by factors gone into under the list found under "Somewhat Special Cases", below.

*John Galt, Dagny Taggart and most of the cast from Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged", which figures given her literature's reputation for being barely-disguised political sermon. Galt frequently has the narrative grind to a halt in order to focus on his inane views, somehow single-handedly grinds the economy to a halt by founding a libertarian utopia where no 'communists' can hold him or other similar geniuses back, and is shilled as the only sane man after the rest of the world becomes a dystopic hellhole without said "genius". Then there's the primary female character, a wannabe railroad tycoon trying to get a new train line built despite the fact that "evil socialists" can't keep them running without crashing every few hours because of mean ol' unions and regulations oppressing the poor upper class. Said woman somehow manages to bed Hank Rearden, local inventor of a metal alloy supposedly even stronger than steel called Rearden Metal. Yes, just drips with creativity, don't it? It's telling that the Bioshock series, based off her work, is far better received and a more realistic depiction, generally due to taking the prospect of a single man basically playing God to its logical conclusion (I.E. another dystopia but now with blackjack and hookers).

*John Kramer, the "Jigsaw Killer" from the ''Saw'' films. Pick any character you know of with a long list of skills or attributes, this guy has more, and he keeps getting away for a half dozen movies. He's also influenced people to the point that even after he dies, some of them copy his actions and ideas and think they're doing good things.

*Jon Snow (especially the show version): While this is in the books as well, it is more evident in the show and he is currently dying from a mutiny in the books. Being a bastard is a bad thing in Westeros so he gets sent to the wall, but it's uphill from there. He gets a Valyrian steel blade (which is incredibly rare and an heirloom of noble houses) in his first week. He has a pet Direwolf puppy like his siblings, but of course his looks unique. From here he gets named as squire and successor to the commander of the Night's Watch (though this does cause some resentment among his peers). Later on he meets Wildings where he spares one who turns out to be a woman; it's obvious where this goes... they don't get along, they fall in love, have sex and spend some time together, something forces them apart and she dies. She also has red hair, which stands out because among Wildings its considered lucky. While he gets stabbed like in the books, in the show he dies from it then gets resurrected by Melisandre/the Lord of Light. He's revealed to be the bastard child of Rhaegar Targereyn and Lyanna Stark, making him Westeros' rightful king, as well as Daenerys' nephew - but that doesn't stop him from having sex with aunt Daenerys*, and this time the incest is portrayed positively! Also, him beating Ramsay Bolton (see below); that's right, Jon's so Mary Sue his plot armor trumps the plot armor of another Mary Sue (to be fair, though, he was actually on the verge of loosing the big battle to Ramsay right up until the moment his ass gets saved by his little sister and about four thousand mounted knights.) While some of the earlier traits don't necessarily equal a Mary Sue, they add up... oh, they add up (*Daenerys, a warqueen who brought dragons back from extinction among other things, makes mistakes and suffers consequences that would seem to impact her Sue-factor if they didn't always turn out to be functionally inconsequential in comparison to her astounding triumphs through casual part-time parenting.) Book Jon is way more well rounded as a character, where it is pointed out that he actually had a decent life as a bastard before coming to the Watch, and several choices he made ended up biting him in the ass come the mutiny.

*Jotaro Kujo, from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Part 3 and 4 (And part 6 but not in part 6... we'll get to that later). He's pretty much invincible like Kenshiro, but unlike Kenshiro, he didn't train a single day to be as hax as he is (His Stand "Star Platinum" is really strong, at the cost of short range, but plot gets in the way and he always gets close enough to ORAORA the bad guys). Also unlike Kenshiro, he is an asshole to everyone, but never suffers any consequences from it (Women literally ADORE him despite his jerkass attitude, because 80's). He spends the entire trip to Egypt spurting out massive amounts of [[Just as planned]] against every villain of the week, or simply getting powers as plot demands, some of the most outrageous examples being: The use of "Star Finger", which completely negates the previously stated range weakness; His "battle" against Steely Dan, where he DID get humilliated but retributed it tenfold in the end; His "battle" against Alessi, where he gets to beat a grown man unconscious with his bare fists despite being turned back into a SEVEN YEAR OLD; His battle against main villain DIO where he wins DIO's time stopping powers for bullshit reasons and wins; and, even more ridiculously, being able to RESURRECT his very dead Grandpa Joseph by [[what|using his stand for blood transfusing and heart-resetting]]. In part 4 he mellows down a lot, most notably [[FAIL|getting beaten by a rat]], but that doesn't prevent him from beating the shit out of the main villain Kira TWICE and stealing the spotlight from Uncle Josuke (The titular Jojo of part 4) on his final battle; too bad Josuke!. Part 6 however, does a great job at not only nerfing but rounding him altogether, the Jojo this time being his own daughter, Jolyne Cujoh (Note that is not Kujo), a delinquent who ends out in prison and resents him greatly for being an awful, absent father and constantly reminds him of it. He attempts to "fix" things but [[Just as planned|falls into one of main villain Pucci's schemes]] and is rendered comatose for great part of the story, when he latter regains his powers (With a significant decrease in durability) and comes to terms with Jolyne, the villain becomes Godlike and ends out killing him along with the entire universe; too bad Shonen Jump!, now seinen is Araki's best friend. In Pucci's universe he is a complete spineless weakling, but in case that was a bit too much, reality resets again and creates [[Awesome|a new universe free of the Joestars Tragic Fate and Part 3's bullshit]]. PD: In the Videogame Eyes of Heaven he is even worse, but this entry is already too long so i'll only say the creators weren't too good with resolutions.

*Kai Leng, from ''[[Bioware#Mass_Effect_3_.28The_Downfall.29|Mass Effect 3]]''. You're constantly told he's a badass assassin, but when he shows up, Shepard's crew suddenly become drooling idiots so Leng can strut about, act tough, and monologue. He brags about killing Thane (alien assassin squadmate from the previous game) even though the latter was hobbled by a terminal illness requiring daily medical care and Thane ''STILL'' got the drop on Kai Leng; Thane even says himself "That other assassin should be embarrassed. A terminally-ill Drell kept him from reaching his target." When you "win" the "fight" against him on Thessia, he still gets away, utterly unaffected by the crumbling architecture that stops Shepard from pursuing him. By the end of the fight, you've advanced the plot a grand total of nowhere, regurgitated information you already have, and been hamstrung as a player because the writer wants his character to look cool. He is yet another antagonist dropped onto a story filled with them, but is nothing more than a costume, sword, and book of one-liners. Unlike Saren from ME1, we have no connection with this douchebag because the story doesn't give him enough screen time to develop into anything.
** Alternate take: What appears to be Sue-ness is BioWare writing him as a Hate Sink. (Basically a character designed to be hated and nothing else, [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HateSink ask those smashers at TV Tropes for more info].) BioWare were using the Reapers as cool villains and leaning into the Illusive Man getting the Darth Vader treatment of the tragic, sympathetic villain who can possibly redeem himself with his death, so Leng became the game's villainous punching bag. Given what a gut punch the final battle is, clearly they wanted Leng's ultimate downfall to give the player a moment of catharsis so they could take a small victory where they got it. And for that to work, it had to be satisfying, and that meant he had to get on the player's nerves without an excuse or understandable motive to undercut their focused rage against him. Note that during the final battle against him, Shepard spends the whole time dressing him down as a coward who can only win by running away and after beating him, smashes his stupid sword and guts him like a fish with their omni-blade. [[Awesome|"That was for Thane, you son of a bitch!"]]

*[[Fist of the North Star|Kenshiro]], nothing can kill him and he's morally flawless, superior to everyone-fucking-else. At least until Shin Saga in the anime, where he starts fucking up often, even with his super kung-fu laser ninja powers. Most battles are curb-stomps until later on because ''it's a fucking show from the 80's''. Do note, however, that Kenshiro loses a ''lot,'' especially later on, and mostly wins his hardest battles because he's the only one worth a shit left alive by that point in the series.

*Kratos from ''[[God of War]]''. He curb-stomps fucking gods due to [[plot armor]] (and because one of them decided to give a bloody psychopath the powers of a god; MENSA applicant right there) and he has threesomes with complete strangers, even though he is meant to be grieving for the death of his family that he himself murdered. Oh and the rules for how death works change whenever it's convenient for him. Err, some of this is because most of the gods he kills with super-powerful items, including Blade of Olympus, the God of War universe's version of Zeus' lightning bolts the cyclops gave him to defeat the titans, which has been infused with all the power of the Greek God of War. And he is later revealed to house the Power of Hope since GoW1, a power strong enough to kill gods. Now he is starting a new family in Norse mythology land Midgard while STILL having the "godly" super strength despite the blade of Olympus drained all his power and gave it all to the world.(Note that he clearly didn't give up his combat experience nor his genetics as a demi-god son of Zeus. Even without those things, he's at minimum a heavily trained demi-god from the strongest of the Greek gods.) At least he acknowledged how fucking awful he was in the past and tried to be a good father toward his new son Atreus, but still keeping his no gods allowed policy.

*Lana Lang from the TV show ''Smallville'' (note; Smallville is not considered canon to the Superman story by DC Comics). Almost big a Mary Sue as Bella from Twilight; almost because she actually has a few useful skills, but she learns them unrealistically quickly (becoming a black belt in martial arts in ''one week''). She has the cliche orphan story but with a unique spin for maximum snowflake effect (her parents were killed by a meteor strike), everyone in the story loves her with the exception of some villains (the key word is SOME), and she's treated as someone who can do no wrong. Lana even got on the cover of TIME magazine, in-universe, as a child! She serves as a wedge between Clark and having a relationship with any other girl and between Clark and his eventual Superman destiny. Clark technically sacrificed his father to save her! In one episode, Clark rewound time on a day in which Lana died, and instead lost his father.

*Lightning from ''Final Fantasy XIII'', she is basically a pink-haired Cloud without any of Cloud's likable personality traits. She's currently the NEW AND ASTONISHING HEAVENLY Valkyrie that fights a purple Sephiroth in her new game "Lightning's Return". Not that we care, but she was created by Motomu Toriyama ([[Matt Ward]]'s Japanese cousin), a man with a Chris-Chan-like persona and Matthew Ward-style writing who is now continuously raping the franchise. He has a waifu love for Lightning like Paul has for Alice. Lightning is comparable to Alice on many levels, which says a lot, really. She also has tons of fucking DLC "costumes" dedicated to her so the player could dress her up and fap her to death. This is so fucking shameful that I'm crazy enough to believe Alice is a much capable heroine. Somebody kill me, please. Oh, just recently, Toriyama decided to have Lightning become a guest character in a future Final Fantasy. So not only is the franchise gonna suffer the rotting Emperor syndrome, but Lightning is now the literal goddess of every Final Fantasy game? Seriously, have you ever seen Paul doing such disgusting things with Alice? Like forcing Alice into an actual ''Resident Evil'' game (well, the ''Resident Evil'' franchise is dead as well)? Motomu Toriyama is officially worse than Paul Anderson!!
** Gets worse: Toriyama has stated that Lighting is the "first" strong female character in any ''Final Fantasy''. Even ignoring the dozens of better-written female characters, some of which he himself has written, the "strong" meaning just physical doesn't work either; FF7's Tifa (a game he worked on, btw) can punch tanks to death.

*Lisa Simpson from ''The Simpsons'', depending on the writer. Lisa has dipped into Mary Sue-dom the same way as Brian from Family Guy (both serving time as smug mouthpieces for their show's creators on hot-button-topics). There was also a time where Lisa had the tendency to never be punished for the times she does do the wrong doing (she ruins Homer's BBQ in "Lisa the Vegetarian" and merely got scolded by him where Bart would likely have been strangled for it). One episode had people deferring to Lisa over Prof. Stephen Hawking in Hawking's area of expertise, and Groening once said Lisa is his favorite character and that he would do anything to prevent her from looking bad (to reference the strangling; the show's animators also applied a double-standard as they strongly protested against the idea of Homer strangling Lisa for upsetting him like he does with Bart). While Lisa's popularity in-universe fluctuates, at its worst the whole town bends over backwards for her even when it goes past characterization (eg; Springfieldians can be '''VERY''' sore losers, as demonstrated in the episode "Boys of Bummer" where the whole town - sans Marge - ridiculed Bart for losing a sports game [[Grimdark|to the point that they nearly drove the 10 year old to suicide]], but when Lisa lost a spelling contest she was applauded for winning second place and got a Mount Rushmore-style sculpture of her face). That being said, there are episodes where Lisa is depicted as unpopular at school, her activism is made over-the-top to be played for laughs, she's neglected at home and less of a "smartest person around" and more of a "only sane person surrounded by idiots", lessening the Sue-factor.

*Magneto is not inherently one, but he does have the INSANE potential to become this when crappy writers start taking his sympathetic traits too far ("Hey guys, let's [[What|make Magneto a member of the X-Men and have him date Rogue]]!") or just forget he's the bad guy. Hell, he sometimes becomes this even when he's a horribly despicable villain. Jeph Loeb's raping of the Ultimate Universe known as "Ultimatum" has him use his magnetic powers to nearly destroy the world just by waving his hands at Earth's magnetic poles (completely breaking the laws of physics in the process) and then effortlessly take on half the X-Men and almost all of the Ultimates singlehandedly and nearly win.

*Master Chief from the ''[[Halo]]'' series is definitely one. For one, he has [[Matt Ward|Ward-grade]] [[Heresy|plot armor]]. Seriously, it was repeated throughout the games that he was born with the word [[What|'''LUCK''']]. To further expand on his Sueness, this 7-foot tall hunk of raging Leprechaun saved the entire Galaxy ''Twice!'', single-handedly stopped the Human-Covie War at the last minute, escaped and defeated an entire race of "Super-Space-Zombie-Fungus" that could mindfuck Culture-tier Civilizations without [[What|having his own brain being raped]], is one of the last surviving SPARTAN II's, solo an entire legion of Covenant Honor-Guards (Which are equivalent to Spacemarine Captain in rank but with inferior gear and training) as well as successfully assassinating a very important Covie leader protected by said Guards without being captured, survived escaping an Exterminatus-level explosion that destroyed a Super-Weapon 'Ring' by ''out-flying it'', somehow his armor is strong enough to deflect Fuel-Rod shots (Which are essentially Plasma Cannons), destroy a flying and mentally psychotic lightbulb with an overcharged Lascannon as a Self-Defence weapon (To be fair 343 Guilty Spark ''is'' a Forerunner Janitor Robot), and did I mention he saved the entire Galaxy ''twice''? Furthermore with the release of Halo 4, MC is now magically gifted the genes and DNA by the Librarian to become full on [[RAGE|''impervious to a fucking Forerunner Super-Weapon/Death-Beam'']], which allows him to single-handedly fight through the insides of a very important Forerunner Capital Ship filled with Necron/Warp-Spiders kill bots and somehow through the act of plot, [[Derp|defeat ''the'' highest ranked Forerunner Military General that has the power to solo the entire Galactic Empire from Star Wars.]] I mean [[Rage|WTF!]] did the developers of Halo not realize that they just created a character with plot-armor so powerful that they make the likes of [[Kaldor Draigo]] look decent in comparison? Thankfully however, as pants-on-head retarded as some of the feats listed for MC are, he at least has some faults such as being psychologically raped in childhood, doesn't have the "Morally Superior to thou" personality and has a very grim view of the war, almost got killed by the killer space popcorn, being rather mediocre for a SPARTAN II when compared to his other colleagues, is only good in leadership and even then made some stupid mistakes, gets pretty beaten the fuck up by a Brute, his Superhuman abilities only stopped when fighting against low-ranked Elites and know he will lose against one if he fought one-by-one, and most of the battles he has been through had almost cost him his life. Those faults listed are what makes good old Chiefy ''NOT'' in the top 10 most powerful Mary-Sues and makes him somewhat tolerable albeit boring compared to the other listed.

*Moka Akashiya from Rosario + Vampire: Stupidly fucking OP enough to one-shot kick '''EVERY OTHER FUCKING MONSTER''' IN THE '''ENTIRE FUCKING SERIES''' AND '''BOTH''' SEASONS, has a ''special exception'' to her power levels made so she gets 'first ancestor' vampire blood to enable her to be ''even more powerful'', has no character development ''at all'' (both her personalities), is a student at an academy and one-shot kicks two members ''of the fucking faculty'' '''AND TOTALLY GETS AWAY WITH IT''', and is ''unbearably arrogant'', revelling in her power and basically saying everyone else is beneath her. Not even other OP fucking vampires OLDER THAN HER can beat her. The only reason she's this bad? The author admits he LOVES vampires. So she's not only an Author Avatar, but a Canon Sue as well, existing only for [[Heresy|heretical deviants]] to fap to and the author to [[Slaanesh|schlick]] to. God-Emperor fucking damn it, Akihisa Ikeda. You little shit. What's worse is that [[Matt Ward|he has no shame about it]]. [[C.S.Goto| No, really]]. Even those who initially get one over on her before getting kicked are '''MORE''' OP ''fucking vampires''. Not really, she's easily one-uped by non-vampires with many characters introduced in S1 & especially S2 who rather easily take her down. Compared to the big leagues, she's a promising new recruit but not comparable to them.

*Mordenkainen (Gary Gygax's personal avatar in the Greyhawk setting and a level 30 wizard who never fucking ages past 50 despite being a hundred fucking years old without turning into a lich, he became bald for some reason, which makes him look evil, but he remains Stupid Neutral).

*Olympia Vale, another character from the [[Halo]] Series and seems to be all around taking over the mantle of Mary Sue from Master Chief as he is pushed in the sidelines like an old man being pushed in the old folks home. Whilst Locke has been accused for being a rather bland and forgettable copycat cutout of the original MC, he still pales in comparison to that of Vale. Essentially imagine Vale as MC but remove the sociopathic and borderline mentally damaged aspects of John 117, make her a prodigy even beyond that of Spartan recruits which in turn made her pretty easy to integrate in the SPARTAN IV program and make her instantly learn the language of the Elites whilst by herself in space with the only excuse being that [[Bullshit|'she was bored'.]] Vale and to an extent, the majority of the SPARTAN IV's seem to be an ongoing campaign from Karen Traviss (AKA the Destroyer of Fluff and Halo's Matt Ward) [[Derp|to further demonize Halsey and her SPARTAN II program]] for no better reason other than being forced to be [[Fail|unethical in an organization as ethically sound as the]] [[Inquisition|Imperial Inquisition.]] As you can imagine, this has already spurred some [[Skub|ire bitching]] in the Halo community and only time will tell if newer sequels from the game would flash her character out in a more decent or obscene matter.

*Ozymandias, AKA, Adrian Alexander Veidt from ''Watchmen''. He was born into a wealthy family, then threw it all away and earned even more money. He's a perfect athlete, good-looking, smartest man in the world (He mind fucked Dr. Manhattan, a blueish godlike superhuman) and a vegetarian. In the book he is able to successfully genetically engineer some sort of monster that would be teleported to New York and as it dies unleash a psychic shockwave that would kill millions in a "common enemy" plot to avert World War 3 by uniting them against "interdimensional aliens" (he does the same in the movie, but instead of aliens, he tricks people into making Dr Manhattan their common enemy - Dr Manhattan himself goes along with the plan once he finds out so there will be world peace). The only downside he had is loneliness, since he had betrayed all his friends and killed the only companion in his life, a fucking genetically-engineered female lynx named Bubastis, by having her bait Dr. Manhattan to the incinerator and killed them both with a switch. Still, Ozymandias is perfect because Mary Sue don't need friends. It was also portrayed that his "common enemy" scheme to stop World War 3 (which involved killing millions) in a positive or at least sympathetic light. He also caught a bullet fired from a gun with his bare hands, and the bullet didn't just go through them, like it would in real-life, despite him not having superpowers. Interesting to note that he the idol he worships: Alexander of Macedonia, is a man born before Christ, and the name Ozymandias is reference to a freaking [[Necron|Egyptian pharaoh: Ramses II]], proving that Adrian is just as egoistic as [[Dante]] and the [[Ultramarines]] by have the name of an ancient ruler as his own nickname. Hell, his color page on "before the watchman" made him looked like some sort of floating Jesus!! Thankfully, he has the decency to acknowledge what he did was wrong in the comics while also justifying it as being for the greater good...which it was in that it stopped World War 3, and he is more complex and well rounded as a character than several others.
** There's also the deliberately ambiguous implication that Ozymandias could get some comeuppance in the future (author Alan Moore stated that what happened after the end of the graphic novel is for each reader to decide for themselves); this is done with Dr Manhattan's cryptic response to Ozymandias' question whether things would work out, and Rorschach giving his journal - containing evidence implicating Ozymandias and revealing his plan - to a news outlet.
** A direct sequel to Watchmen called "Doomsday Clock" came and finally made Ozymandias pay for what he has done. After the news outlet ousted Veidt's plans, it started a chain of reaction that eventually led to his downfall as well as the supposed end of humanity. European Union dissolved, the USSR went back its old warmonger ways with their relation between the US degrading to lows below even the Cold War, nuclear weapons failed to be disarmed and one such missile was fired from Russia to New York City. Adrian is now the most wanted man in the world and has brain cancer (possibly ironically validating what he framed Dr. Manhattan for). Still, he managed to fight his way out of this chaos with other DC heroes (superman and the godamned batman mind you, characters with thick plot armor), the Comedian (brought back by Manhattan), pretty much everyone around the world but especially Dr. Manhattan (who masterminded this all from his glass palace on Mars). Also, keep in mind this sequel is not written by Alan Moore himself so it's at best considered an alternate continuity.

*Prometheus (the DC supervillain) certainly didn't ''start'' as this but ended up being twisted into one. When first introduced he was a genuinely cool and intimidating supervillain whose insane skill and manipulations were balanced out by his crippling mental issues (which the heroes exploited to take him down). Unfortunately, writers who weren't as skilled as Grant Morrison got their paws on him and made him ludicrously overpowered to the point where he single-handedly ''destroyed Star City, killing Roy Harper's daughter in the process''. Thus Prometheus went from an awesome member of Batman's rogue gallery to a complete waste of pages. Thankfully he was prevented from becoming any worse thanks to Green Arrow putting an arrow through the bastard's skull.

*Ramsay Bolton (show version): Oh good fucking God, where to start with this particular Villain Sue? Well, for one, he manages to take on twenty of the best Ironborn warriors, who were all heavily armed and armored, while not just unarmored but SHIRTLESS and armed with nothing but a kitchen knife and a mace, and SOMEHOW kicks their asses. Then, much later, he is shown to completely annihilate the battle-hardened Stormlander army led by Stannis Baratheon, the greatest military commander in Westeros, with nothing but cavalry, while the previous episodes had established that Ramsay is a tactically inept moron. (This can also tie in with the fact that the writers of the show seriously fucked over Stannis from "stern-but-honorable competent tactical genius" into "greedy, fanatical moron"). Finally, he is constantly shown to get his way no matter how stupidly contrived it seems to the viewer, arguably the worst case being marrying and deflowering Sansa Stark by raping her and getting the killing blow on fan-favorite giant Wun-Wun. His Sueness ends with his face getting caved in by Jon and fed to his own hounds by Sansa.

*Rey AKA Ma-Rey Sue from the [[Star Wars]]. From the release of the first movie, she already caught some backlash among the old guards of Star Wars who consider her a self-insert Mary Sue with a feminist agenda. Leaving aside the politics, the resulting trilogy and related events have only confirmed Rey’s Mary Sue-dom. Reasons from the first movie alone include Rey showing [[What|a better knowledge of the Millennium Falcon’s inner working than then Han Solo and Chewbacca]] who’d maintained the ship for decades where she had it for less than a week, being offered a job by Han shortly after meeting him despite him and Chewie being sufficient crew for the Falcon and Han being a cynic who barely knows her (like something right out "A Trekkie's Tale"), Rey suddenly being a [[Wat|powerful Force user who can resist a trained Force-user's mind probe]] despite no previous mention of her being Force sensitive and [[Bullshit|Rey performing said Jedi mind trick while in captivity almost immediately after learning she's Force Sensitive]] despite the fact that performing said trick is known to be difficult to master (to be fair, Rey had just been in telepathic contact with somebody who knew how to pull off a Mind Trick, and wasn't as good at telepathic interrogation as he thought he was). Rey’s only character flaw is recklessness, and while it does get her captured by the villains in the first and third films, this is offset by Rey getting rescued unharmed both times by luck/plot armour, which is a Sue-ish trait (at least Luke suffered actual setbacks and injuries – such as a severed hand and failing to save Han from Boba Fett). Furthering Rey’s status of Mary Sue is the “creators relationship to the character” part, with several of the filmmakers either pulling new explanations out of their asses to explain Rey’s abilities (or retconning them, such as the Force “cheat-coding” and the “Force Dyad”) or attacking anyone who didn’t like the character by tarring them with the same negative brushes ([[SJW|accusations of sexism got lots of usage]]). The third film threw in the big twist that Rey is ''really'' Rey '''Palpatine'''. You heard right, Rey is literally Emperor Palpatine's ''granddaughter'', almost as if they're trying to one-up Luke’s relation to Vader. The third film also ends with Rey taking the last name “Skywalker” while Luke and Leia’s force ghosts look on approvingly. For a more comprehensive coverage on why Rey is a Mary Sue, look up the results of the Mary Sue Litmus test on the discussion page.
** While it could be argued that Luke and Anakin are just as ridiculous, they fit easier the form of tropes they are. Luke, being the most classic [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheHero Hero] ever, is quickly established as good at most things he does, culminating in flying an X-Wing through the Death Star trench and making an one-in-a-million shot to destroy the Death Star, and this is less than a week before he was just a backwater farmboy. Though while Luke used the Force untrained like Rey did, his only feats were enhancing skills he already had and developed; a stretch, but more plausible than pulling new skills ''that require training to use'' out of nowhere. Anakin is the [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChosenOne Chosen One], and people who are chosen tend to be skilled and powerful regardless because the Powers-That-Be have their backs on top of any personal skills they have. Young Ani competes and wins a pod-race that only aliens can normally participate in due to the sheer insanity of it, and then blows up a Trade Federation Dreadnought with a fighter he'd never been in before (even then kid Anakin also had R2-D2's help). Again, no problem. Now Rey is about as much the Hero as Luke but is an Unchosen One compared to Anakin, and the wildest thing she does in her first movie is to use the Force untrained (much like Luke does in A New Hope) and gain the upper hand on a Sith apprentice. Why people doesn't expect her to be [[-4 Str|as powerful]] as [[Lawful Good|Luke]] and [[BBEG|Anakin]] is better left for another discussion entirely, though the fact that Rey is touted as a strong female character while being propped up by the failures of men and saved by men throughout the trilogy doesn't help her case.

*Richard, from the Sword of Truth series (he's not as bad in the TV series). He is always considered an ideal hero despite being cruel, sociopathic, and thinking that the universe should bend over backwards for him [[What|(which it actually does).]] Everyone who disagrees with him is evil (even if that's the only reason they're considered a villain) or turns evil. Gratuitous rape is thrown in by the author as a cheap way to make him look better (making villains as reprehensible as possible doesn't solve the problem of the protagonist being completely un-heroic).

*Richard B. Riddick, from the Riddick universe. Vin Diesel's personal self-insert inspired from his own D&D Rogue. Didn't start out as a Mary Sue though, going from a sensible power level ''(where a fist-fight with a morphine-addicted merc is reasonably fair)'' with dubious morality and a lovably snarky badass attitude. Later becoming ''(particularly amongst the directors cuts)'' a superpowered badass who can single-handedly take on squads of soldiers with a knife, resist soul sucking, commune with animals and make threats with [[Just as Planned]] modes of killing. ''("kill you with my teacup" / "dead in 5 seconds")'', oh... he can also explode as shown in the director's cuts and off-screen in the video games. His later portrayals also show his morality becoming a "told you so" mentality, where, when people die it's really because they are the assholes and nothing to do with Riddick.

*Roran, from the Inheritance Cycle. He started as a farmer-apprentice blacksmith, yet he managed to become an invincible warrior, charismatic presence, expert orator and master strategist without any training. We are talking of a young man who soloes 194 soldiers in a melee battle and wins without taking any major injuries. He then survived a public flogging severe enough to be an alternative to execution despite it being not long after that battle. He also beat an urgal in a wrestling match despite the Urgal being stronger, bigger, better trained and having horns. In the third book he even single-handedly defeated a Ra'zac; a race that are to humans what wolves are to sheep. Then in the final battle Roran bested the magically-enhanced warrior who killed the elf-queen, and did so without magic or special weapons of his own. Yes, Roran managed to achieve feats that even elves would consider impossible. While his cousin Eragon has the (weak) excuses of magical enhancement and helping from his dragon companion, Roran doesn't. He is a common man who, for plot reasons, creates a plot armor just by thinking about his girlfriend.

* Sarah Kerrigan from the Starcraft series has become this more and more as time passes. In the first game she's just a terran ghost (psionic assassin) who gets turned into a human-zerg hybrid and disappears from the plot after like two or three missions in the zerg campaign, but then she becomes one of the main villains of the expansion pack and everyone else in in the game becomes a thundering dumbass so she can look like a master manipulator despite being played for a sap by yet another character, and commits several atrocities to serve herself and her own agenda but is not punished them in any way despite multiple characters swearing revenge on her. Then the sequel ramped it up. Out of fucking nowhere she is designated the saviour of the galaxy from the new villain in town with virtually no justification offered except that Blizzard were too cowardly and attached to the the character to follow through on people wanting her dead. She gets purified of zerg corruption and another character who's more fun and interesting gets killed off so she can live. The zerg campaign centers on her and shows her doing yet more pointlessly-cruel and destructive things in the name of petty revenge, its only concessions to the ridiculousness of letting her live being some half-hearted acknowledgements of her past crimes. And after a pair of pointless guest appearances in the protoss campaign and its prologue campaign, she gets picked by the last good Xel'Naga in the universe to receive his essence and become a Xel'Naga herself so she can defeat the main villain in a laser beam-off. And after her boyfriend, a better-written character who spends all his time getting shit on throughout the series, is seen moping in a bar at the end of the final campaign, she gets to ass pullingly make him a Xel'Naga too, for some moron's idea of resolving their relationship with happily ever after ending.

*Sakamoto from 'Haven't You Heard? I'm Sakamoto' never fails at anything and always manages to look [[Awesome]] no matter what he is doing or how much the other characters try to sabotage him, and it is hilarious.

*Selene, from the 'Underworld' movies. Throughout the series, she bears several similarities to [[Alice]]; both are experts with weapons, both have superior biology to their respective species (humans for Alice, Vampires for Selene), both kill their way through swarms of enemies without getting a scratch, both have little regard for their source material, and both are played by the wives of the directors of their respective film series.

*Squirrel Girl from Marvel Comics is another one of these Sues who's actually popular and enjoyed for it, probably because she's played entirely for laughs: Doreen Grey is a [[Mutant]] teenage girl with Spider-Man levels of strength/speed/agility, can grow bone knuckles, can talk to squirrels (and have them do her bidding) and has the ability to defeat any villain she wants off-screen. This includes big-name villains like Doctor Doom (she beat him in his first appearance and several times afterwards, and this is a rare instance of a Doom-related incident that was ''not'' smoothed over with the "Just a Doombot" excuse), Ego the Living Planet (who is, like his name suggests, a planet, meaning that a teenage girl beat up a planet), Thanos (who is one of the biggest badasses of the Marvel Universe, but the writers saved his face by replacing him in this instance with a perfect copy of him), Deadpool (whom she calls the mean, mean man; he's actually scared of her), M.O.D.O.K. and tons of other people. She was once part of a C-list superhero team, but quit because she thought she was holding them back (which she was entirely correct about: she once apologized to them for being late because she had to beat a 100' space dragon) and left for Marvel's Nexus of the Multiverse: New York. Despite her unapologetic Mary Sue-ness the fans love her and see her as the one spot of light in the otherwise relentlessly [[grimdark]] Marvel Universe, because again, she's played entirely for laughs and there's nary a title in Marvel Comics that couldn't do with more laughs.

*[[Superman]] in the hands of a poor writer. He is morally perfect, one of the strongest beings in the DC universe, and his one weakness that's supposed to kill him never works <s>ex: he lifts an entire continent of Kryptonite after being stabbed by a dagger made of it</s> thankfully ''Superman Returns'' had so many plotholes that ''Man of Steel'' declared it all non-canon. The only reliable way to nerf him is to have Batman beside him, because Superman always becomes a dumbass when Batman is around (go watch DCAU Justice League to see for yourself). Good writers can avoid falling into this by having him go up against villains who can genuinely threaten him (such as General Zod, Maxima or Doomsday; in fact, the writers made Doomsday specifically to be a threat who can physically match Superman), showing that even with all his vast powers there are things Superman just can't do (in one tragic story it turned out that even though he can benchpress planets, he can't stop his parents from dying of cancer) or emphasizing that his strong morals are not intrinsic to him, but a product of a happy childhood, caring parents and a network of close friends, and he wouldn't necessarily have them if he were raised somewhere less pleasant (like, say, Planet Apokolips or the Soviet Union - both actually happened in Elseworlds stories, look it up) or if those close to him were taken away (like in the Injustice and Kingdom Come comic series).

*Tauriel, Peter Jackson's special snowflake from ''The Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug'' (a Mary Sue in something related to Tolkien; [[Tolkien|Beren and Luthien are deep and well-written enough to get a pass]], this is a sad day). Not content with undermining or retconning the book, Jackson creates a special snowflake elf OC. Tauriel's ridiculously skilled at fighting to the point she matches Legolas in archery - and he's pretty OP in the films (as shown when she shots an arrow at him when he surprises her, he returns fire and their arrows collide with each other) - she also has healing powers. According to all of Tolkien's books, only a select few elves can heal people such as Lord Elrond Half-Elven, wielder of one of the three Elven Rings of Power, some who's studied healing for millennia and is a direct descendant of the Kings of the Noldor; all things which Tauriel lacks. In addition, she's ship-teased with canon-characters Legolas (who never appears, or even gets mentioned, in the book - albeit he was shoehorned into the film to cash in on his popularity with fangirls) and Kili. To be fair, some of the ship tease between Kili and Tauriel is well handled as well, in particular when Kili teases her and then tells her stories when locked in prison.

*[[Star Trek|Wesley Crusher]]. Wesley FUCKING Crusher. Originating from the same franchise as the original Mary Sue, Wesley is a very young ensign training to be an officer in Starfleet, where he's earned the admiration of many of the bridge officers. He became something of a protege to Captain Picard, who was impressed by Wesley after he showed that he had learned all the controls at the captain's chair when they first met. <s>While not morally perfect or incorruptible Wesley is as close as he can be in most cases</s> He's only moral by Gene Roddenberry's standards ''(which were messed up beyond belief, the man thought it was okay to be a prima donna director but not for children to grieve over dead loved ones, and that's not getting into his corporate shyster practices, anti-religious prejudices and sexism; seriously we're not making any of that up)'', by a normal person's, he's smug and egocentric, along with his [[Deus Ex Machina]] techno skills, which are shown off by making the rest of the crew look useless. He notably also gets the Enterprise into danger before getting it out of it, and never gets called out for it. Many people thought that he was an insufferable little shit, among them Wil Wheaton (the actor who PLAYED the guy... and coming from him, that's saying something). Wesley is even named after Gene Roddenberry, as Wesley was Gene's middle name - or to give Gene's full name, Eugene ''Wesley'' Roddenberry.

*[[Loli|Young main characters]] in crappy [[Asians|Japanese]] [[anime|animes]] and [[manga]].

*Main characters from Japanese [[Isekai]] light novels. Usually they were nerds or losers who only interest in a particular underrated hobby/talent in their world, but became a fucking skyrim tier powerhouse once they enter the so-called mysterious otherworld. Upon entering, they became super powerful since their somewhat boring talent suddenly becomes a miracle to the other world residents thus making the main character successful. It is a trend that they will done the following to prove their superiority: wrecking Saturday cartoon villain tier antagonist (usually a reference to the main character's childhood bully) that made even [[Ahriman]] looks good, instantly gained many female party members because the main character was an unpopular virgin in their original world (and no males allowed, they are yucky), using their otaku knowledge to solve every problem that was deems unsolvable in the other world (more reason that their useless hobby/talent that was deemed useless has more use in the otherworld). The other world usually consist the cliches of JRPG world: [[Medieval Stasis]], fantasy creatures like dwarves and elves, old European like hierarchy and cultures, monsters, JRPG mechanic. One of many trend of isekai protagonist is that almost all of them have tragic background featuring how they were bullied in high school or parent suicide or some typical Japanese cliches of tragic (such as truck-kun). There are also many situations where authors would made the protagonist suffer by have him stuck in a misunderstood situation, setup by the unlikable villain as an attempt to make him look good. Then again, these kind of self fulfilling characters are authors self insert whom was a victim of a depressing citizens of their society, or they thought. There are a few exceptions to this such as Ainz Ooal Gown, Kazuma Satou or Kazuya Souma who are thrown into situations that requires far more intelligence, planning and Indy Polys than your typical light novel protagonist can muster. Some try to subvert this with mixed results. ''Re:Zero'' is a deconstructive take where its protagonist (Subaru Natsuki) dies painfully over and over and ''over'' again, and eventually confesses to everyone around him that he's completely useless. (Though then he starts learning from his mistakes and becomes more competent-- but '''not''' an uber-badass.)

*Judging from the rest of the list, [[Skub|any character you don't like.]]

===Works with more than too many of them===
*[[In Nomine]]'s Superiors may or may not qualify; if they do, they do so as a block, thus placing them here. The problem here is that each Superior is an NPC made to more or less '''be''' their entire organization (''most'' PCs report directly to at least one of them), and thus needs to be larger-than-life. Ultra high-powered NPCs plus Strong Personalities plus Needing to Show Up Frequently is a formula only in need of a small amount Bad Writing or Poor GMing to go into hardcore Suedom. On the "possibly further from Suedom" side, all the Superiors have exploitable character flaws, but the result is still an edifying example of why High Powered NPCs are a problem.

*Sonichu, made by [[Chris-Chan|you-know-who]]. To make a long article short, just about anyone who is friends with the author or from some franchise <s>s/he/it</s> they like gets to be overwhelmingly hax and unbound by the laws of morality, everyone who isn't is pretty much either nonexistent or very very evil (the latter guaranteed for any character representing someone the author has a personal beef with).

*Twilight
**[[Twilight|Bella Swan]]: Though she is a pretentious, manipulative, male-dependent, self-pitying downer who takes her parents for granted and makes no time for her friends, Bella is adored by all. Her first day of school is supposedly hard for her, despite the fact that every person she meets instantly presents her with a best friend badge, and/or falls in love with her. She's also clumsy EXCEPT when there's a moment where she'll die if she does something clumsy. Add being a painfully obvious author surrogate and even being the product of one of the author's dreams (S Meyer admitted that herself), "clumsy" Bella is the Mary Sue of her generation.
**[[Twilight|Edward Cullen]]: This character is the reason the popularity of vampires took a massive hit when the book came out. Possibly the most rage-inspiring aspect is he introduced the idea that vampires [[FAIL|SPARKLE HARMLESSLY LIKE DIAMONDS IN SUNLIGHT]]! He can read minds, is near impossible to kill, doesn't have the vampire weakness to holy objects despite seeing himself as an abomination against God, doesn't feed off humans despite his literal bloodlust except for criminals or "those who deserve to die", always fashionable and multi-talented. Despite being a textbook case of an emotionally abusive and controlling boyfriend to Bella, he's always treated as having the moral high ground... except when he refuses to make Bella a vampire, but that gets swept under the rug as soon as he changes his mind.
**[[Twilight|Jacob Black]]: A werewolf from the Twilight franchise. He commits date rape on Bella (forcing a kiss), trolls the vampires and switches sides between the werewolves and the vampires without consequence. The worst part is when he [[FATAL|falls in love with Bella's and Edward's newborn daughter because of a vision, practicing wife husbandry on her as soon as she can walk and talk... and all the other characters are fine with this]]. The story also gushes about his looks to the point that the movie doesn't go five minutes without the character taking off his shirt and the camera focusing on his muscles.

*Warhammer unfortunately has several examples, many of them a result of Matt Ward's bad writing. They get much better in the hands of more skilled writers, or in [[If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device|parodies]].
**[[Cato Sicarius]]. Seriously this guy is Mary Sue's Mary Sue. He was born to a noble house on Talassar, trained with a sword as soon as he could hold one, inducted into the Ultramarines. He got commendation after commendation going from sergeant to company champion to Captain of the 2nd Company in several decades. He refined lightning assaults to near perfection and knows what to do after giving the battlefields a quick glance. He leads a company of mini Sues, each squad having some title for some great feat; their devastators having destroyed a titan, and a tactical squad that hasn't taken a casualty in close to 100 years. He is not only captain of the 2nd but "Master of the Watch", "Knight Champion of Macragge", "Grand Duke of Talassar", and "High Suzerain of Ultramar", seriously those last two titles are [[pretend|completely made up]]. He's a complete dick, valuing glory for himself and his company over all else, admitting to his men that he didn't care about planet Damnos when they were battling the Necrons over it (where he got his ass handed to him by a no-name Necron Lord). He also decided to appoint himself judge, jury, and executioner, to judge Uriel Ventris when he broke from the Codex, even though they're the same rank and only the Chapter Master has the right to do stuff like that. Oh yeah that reminds me, to top it all off most of the chapter thinks he's next in line to be Chapter Master, instead of Captain Agemman of the first company, even though he's got much (see fuck-tons) more experience than Sicarius. Add all that to the Mary Sue-ness of being a Space Marine and being in the Ultramarines and it reaches critical levels.
**[[Eldrad|Eldrad Ulthran]], and what's worse: he knows he is, and is a complete dick about it. Though he was recently imprisoned by his Craftworld for trying to help the Imperium and messing up Ynnead's ascension. He then joins the Ynnari after being shunned by his Craftworld.
**[[Kaldor Draigo]]. Wrote his mentor's name into Mortarion's heart without contracting Spess Aids, or being fucking destroyed by said primarch which, of those 19 (21?) can roll through a squad of Custodes without too much effort, got schllupped into the Warp and somehow remains pure.
**[[Marneus Calgar]], especially post-Ward. Killing an Avatar of Khaine by punching its chest in and not getting seriously hurt in said fight with one. An Avatar of Khaine is supposed to be as hard to kill as a Bloodthirster, something that takes a Primarch or a Bio-titan to beat in a one-on-one fight (then again, Games Workshop loves [[Worf|worfing]] Avatars, and Space Marines are their Creator's Pet). Calgar had his limbs chopped off by the Swarmlord, which didn't kill him due to Plot Armor, and he leads the Ultramarines, themselves considered a Mary Sue chapter in a Mary Sue faction (see the Space Marine entry on this page). These are just the first few examples.
**[[Captain Matthias Ward]], I am the better Mary-Sue.
**The [[Primarch]]s <s>and their [[Warhammer High|daughters]].</s>{{BLAM|'''THOSE WORDS ARE BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!! /tg/ can only create perfection!'''}} (To be fair, the daughters are only Sues in that they inherited their Sue traits from their fathers.)
**[[Uriel Ventris]] - despite initially coming off as a subversion of Wardian Ultramarines-are-the-best Mary Sue bullshit, he quickly devolves into [[Skub|Ultramarines are the worst unless they use the Codex to wipe their asses and act like Space Wolves]] - which is pretty much limited to - guess who? - McNeill's OC-Do-Not-Steal Special Snowflake Ventris.
** [[Iskandar Khayon]] a pretty awesome villain, but some of the stuff he does is just unbelievable, though some of that may be because his book is actually him telling the events to his enemies while captured so he may be lying about a lot of it.

*World of Warcraft:
**Kalecgos (AKA Kalec), blue dragon who can disguise himself as a human-elf hybrid; from [[World of Warcraft|World of Warcrabs]]. Ham-fistedly inserted into the Blood Elves' redemption story arc as an enabler. Later he takes over the blue dragonflight even though he's not the oldest, wisest or most powerful blue dragon, but simply because he was the only surviving named blue dragon with anything approaching a personality. Later he hooks up with Jaina Proudmoore, a powerful human mage/noblewoman/faction leader introduced in Warcraft III. She does this in spite of their vast age difference (which made her reject an Elven prince who loved her) and bad track record with lovers. Though Kalecgos later disbanded them as an organization, he's still the go-to blue dragon (despite older, more powerful ones like Azuregos and Senegos still being in the lore).
**Jarod Shadowsong, a Night Elf commander shoehorned into the setting in books "War of the Ancients" and "Wolfheart", by Richard Knaak. Brother to canon character Maiev Shadowsong, love interest to Shandris Feathermoon, - Tyrande's adopted daughter with both characters canon since WC3 (Shandris in case you don't recognize her, is that one Elf archer with a unique model present in the first two and last Night Elf missions in ''Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos'') - and the Night Elves greatest war hero after Furion and Tyrande themselves. His mere presence raises morale so much that people, to quote the book, "automatically fight harder and obey him with greater swiftness". He survived a one-on-one fight against Archimonde, a demon lord who can destroy cities single-handedly, because he suddenly decided to toy with Jarod even though time was of the essence. Said war saw various Night Elf DEMIGODS place themselves under Jarod's command! He also lacks any personality beyond humble hero and has no character flaws that effect him negatively. He spends thousands of years after the first fight against the Burning Legion resting on his laurels and doesn't show up when they invade the second time, but no-one calls Jarod out on this in-universe. On top of this, Shandris' love for him is poorly written and makes no sense. The last time Shandris saw Jarod, he was married to someone else and Shandris knew it, and Shandris had no contact with Jarod for ''thousands of years'' until they met again during the Cataclysm. And when they met, Shandris propositioned Jarod '''at his wife's funeral'''. This bears repeating; Shandris pursued someone who she hadn't spoken to for millennia and who was married to someone else by trying to hook up him before his wife's body was even cold (and Shandris is not that kind of ignorant/thoughtless/crazy/predatory person).
**Krasus (AKA Korialstraz) a high-ranking red dragon, mainly due to the author's overuse of him, and said author is also Richard Knaak. He disguises himself as an elf, and said elf is one of the leaders of the Kirin Tor. On top of this, he's Consort/Adviser of the Dragon Queen, he might as well be the Dragon King considering how much importance Alexstraza puts on him and how few decisions she makes until after he's gone. He also gets sent back in time to partake of a historical event despite the fact HIS YOUNGER SELF WAS AROUND IN THAT TIME. He also set up another Mary Sue in Warcraft, Rhonin (NOTE; both characters were created by the same author). To be fair, Krasus is tame compared to most WoW examples listed here.
**Rhonin, human archmage of the Kirin Tor. By Richard Knaak again, Blizzard Entertainment's equivalent of [[Robin Cruddace|Robin Cruddace]]. Knaak made up a new member of the famous Windrunner family just for Rhonin to hook up with. They have half-elf kids who are blessed by dragons despite the fact they've done nothing to earn it (the player characters have done more, but they don't get anything like that; just a few trinkets that will be rendered obsolete by the next expansion), not to mention that those half-elf kids are one of the very rare examples of human-elf hybrids in WoW (the other is Arator the Redeemer, son of legendary characters all the way back in Warcraft 2 - human paladin Turalyon and elven general Alleria). Even the name Rhonin is just the title "Rōnin" (referring to a Samurai with no master during Japan's feudal period) with a few changes to anglicize the name (and, of course, the character doesn't even look Japanese). He gets sent back in time to partake in the first fight against the Burning Legion for no other reason than Knaak wanted Rhonin to be there. He does practically nothing in the game, yet everyone says he's a great hero; even then, he didn't do half the things they praise him for.
**Sylvanas Windrunner from [[World of Warcraft]] (The trend is now a bullet train into Edgytown): Started out as a Fantasy counterpart for Sarah Kerrigan, she's been turning into Fantasy Hitler/Mengele (or rather, was from the beginning). Originally a High Elf ranger in Warcraft III who is killed and turned into a Banshee by Arthas. She sets up the Undercity as a fortress/Horde-run concentration camp for Alliance captives, and has free reign of atrocities ranging from slavery to genocide. Her Royal Apothecary kidnapped innocents to experiment upon under her watch, torturing them for fun and science. Now that doing bad things upsetting some players does definitely not qualify for Mary Sue'dom, but the problem becomes obvious as the plot advances. She was already under suspicion before the Wrathgate Incident (she knew about the plague, but not that it would be used on the Horde too), invaded Gilneas, nuked Southshore, waged a torture-filled genocidal campaign on the Humans, manipulated the Horde (to join them in the first place in order to use them as tools), built a Cult of Personality around herself, employed the Val'kyr (which seems to be a case of "Even Chaos has standards" when seen by pragmatic Death Knight Thassarian), resurrected those who she killed against their will despite not liking when it happened to her, shot and killed Liam Greymane then taunted his father Genn about it, attempted to steal the Scythe of Elune to enslave the Worgen to expand her personal army and made some kind of deal with the devil to get the Val'kyr in the first place. The closest she got to any kind of punishment was Lor'thermar threatening to kill her if she raised the Horde's dead as Forsaken, stating he'd leave her to the Alliance if she tried it on their dead and calling her out on several of her actions in Mists of Pandaria - rather weaksauce given the almighty kicking they were giving Garrosh throughout that expansion pack, making him out to be evil incarnate. In Legion, after retreating from the Broken Shore, the crowning moment of Mary Suedom occurs when she ends up being named the next Warchief of the Horde with Vol'jin's dying words, followed by her abandoning the fight against a world-destroying demon army so she can find a way to cheat death, and everyone in the Horde is okay with this. In the next expansion, the Horde forced the Night Elves out of Kalimdor in the War of Thorns, with Sylvanas pulling an Arthas by forcing the dying commander to watch her burn Teldrassil, an action worse than Garrosh's Bombing of Theramore because Theramore was a military target while the Night Elves had surrendered and Teldrassil was inhabited only by non-combatants. Then the writers give her plot armor by having "never forsake honor" Saurfang save her life by dealing a dishonorable blow to her opponent, as Sylvanas' atrocities grow barely anyone from the Horde turns against her, and pulling new powers out of their asses for her. Then she pulls an admittedly cunning trap and Blight-bombs Lorderaen when the Alliance take it from the Forsaken in retaliation (only turning the tide thanks to Jaina). After this she gets more unexplained new powers that allow her to one-shot Saurfang and solo Lich King Bolvar and a horde of undead in the lead-up to the new expac. The Mary Sue reason on top of all this? She never suffers any ''(literally, ANY)'' setback except Greymane ruining her Val'kyr agenda. All her atrocities and horrors are ignored or turned into heroism, and what's worse, she automatically pulls out the next phase of her agenda out of her ass like some Pentagon's high command after snorting a line of coke each. Her Forsaken, despite horrendous losses and ban on raising unwilling dead, somehow destroys each and everything with a shred of goodness around her...only for her to get raised to Warchief status like some spoiled prepubescent princess. This issue is compounded by the fact that Sylvanas has a very vocal fanbase and she's the Creator's Pet of at least two of Warcraft's dev team, lead quest writer David Kosak and Creative Director Alex Afrasiabi (the latter who insists [[Skub|she's not evil and that there's still a lot more to her story]]). Even then, David and Alex were proven wrong as the end of Battle for Azeroth and the upcoming Shadowlands expansion confirm/FINALLY ADMIT that Sylvanas is a villain and she's going to be taken down.
**Thrall, the (in)famous Orc Warchief from ''[[Warcraft]]''. Started out cool in WC3 as an Orc orphan raised in a human internment camp who escaped with help from a friend, he led the Orcs because he was the former Warchief's son and a powerful but not story-breaking shaman. By having his forces fight alongside the trolls and Tauren and save them from their enemies he made allies. Though he fucked up by sending Grommash to collect resources from Ashenvale (antagonizing the Night Elves, giving the demons an opportunity to corrupt the Orcs and leading to the death of a demigod who would've been a great help against the Burning Legion), with a lot of help from some allies and another demi-god he sets things right and they kick the Burning Legion's demonic asses off of Azeroth. He still holds the line against threats and tries to make peace, but he's a bit too forgiving of trouble-makers in the Horde (see Sylvanas above and Garrosh below). In the Cataclysm expansion for World of Warcramps, he became Azeroth's premiere shaman and leader of half the world while appointing the <s>[[Skub|VERY CONTROVERSIAL]]</s> <s>balls to the wall violent and universally hated</s> patriotic warmonger Garrosh Hellscream as Warchief of the Horde; despite the protests of several others ''including Garrosh himself'' (who was uncertain he could handle the responsibility of such a role at the time). Takes over as Aspect of Earth from a borderline demigod, and even deals a crippling blow to him when he's empowered by the Old Gods. Even people that were fans of Thrall during Warcraft III have started to get sick of him.
*** The writers appear to have realized what kind of monster they unleashed in Cataclysm and every expansion since has given him a kicking in some way. In Mists of Pandaria Garrosh kicks his ass just before his final fight with the players. In Warlords of Draenor he gets relegated to the sidelines and has [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHwiEbXqh3k another fight with Garrosh], which features a memetastic sequence in which Garrosh pummels his dumb ass while listing his failures. He wins the fight only by cheating and using his shaman powers, and Legion (the expansion) reveals the Elemental Spirits have nerfed him for his blatant haxxing. Even when he begins getting his powers back, you only see that happen if you're a shaman, and he ends up becoming your bitch. Even his big fancy Doomhammer gets misplaced so it can become an Artifact weapon for Enhancement shamans.

==Mary Sue Races==
While not every member of a race is a Mary Sue, [[Chakat|with one or two exceptions]], sometimes whole races are considered Mary Sues because they have huge amounts of plot armor and are idealized beyond reason. They were put here as the Mary Sue list was originally conceived for characters. Also, please list them in alphabetical order.

* Although some might find this as [[Skub|arguable,]] the characteristics describing the Asari race in [[Bioware|Mass Effect]] are blatantly Mary-Sue. Although not every Asari is a Mary Sue (though some are), when it comes to the general race as a whole, oh boy does their 'Sueness' reach Chakat levels. Examples on what makes them a Mary Sue includes having the second longest lifespan behind the Krogan (over 1000 years, plus they lack the Krogans violent nature which can easily waste their long lifespans), all of them are biotic users, every one in the game is intelligent, founders of the council, considered sexy by many other species despite being a monogendered species (even Salarians, who lack a sex drive and mate by necessity), and are deliberately oversexualised by the developers so they can be [[Rule 34|Rule 34'ed to death]]. Their race as a whole is portrayed as peace loving hippies, the best diplomats, the most respected species in the galaxy as well as having a serious case of "Holier/Morally Superior then thou" attitude. Their ship the "Destiny Ascension" is the largest and most powerful ship in the Citadel fleet and their ships perversely resemble a lady privates because you know they all look like "wominz". Thessia, their homeworld, is regarded as the "jewel" of the galaxy (instead of the fucking Citadel) as well as having the largest amount of Eezo which partially explains how their entire race is biotics. Any asari can 'Read' most people's minds and inner-thoughts with near complete-accuracy, though only if that person agrees to it (they can literally mindfuck you). Furthermore with their way of reproduction, since they are monogendered (Meaning their all female) a lot of newcomers in Mass Effect start to scratch their heads on how they manage to get each other pregnant without any physical evidence of having a dick (Although one of the hypothesis is that they might actually screw around with the local fauna AKA Bestiality). However the fluff states this as Parthenogenesis, for those that don't know what it is, think of them as chickens....which is actually hilarious if you seriously put the comparison in context. Another odd thing about their reproduction is that somehow the Asari have the capability of getting pregnant from just about '''''Anyone'''''. [[Chakat|Do those traits sound fucking familiar to you?]] So all in all, not only are they a holy (unholy?) fusion of a smurf, elf and a monster girl, but they also commit in sweaty Lesbian/Bestiality/Xenoality orgies with almost everyone, turning the Asari race into nothing more then a giant Whorehouse for Aliens and Humans to fap in a hundred dozen ways and yet they are still ''okay'' with that....<s>Slaneesh approve of this!</s> {{BLAM|'''''BLAM! BLAM! DOUBLE HERESY!'''''}} But to be fair, at least Asari aren't [[Avatar|furries]] or physical [[Chakat|hermaphrodites]].
** Amusingly enough, the third game reveals that the only reason Asari are so much more advanced than the other races is because the Protheans (the super-advanced precursor race) were deliberately manipulating them and sneaking tech to them in their ancient history in order to give them a boost (such as genetically engineering them to be a race of skilled biotics and [[STC|leaving instruction manuals on how to create all sorts of advanced technology and deal with the other races in their "beacons"]]). The hope was that if they were given enough a headstart, the Asari would be able to unite and lead the other races to victory against the Reapers (in other words, they were deliberately ''trying'' to make the Asari Mary Sues in order to give the next cycle an advantage over the Reapers). Instead the Asari kept that knowledge to themselves and used it to become the most powerful race in the galaxy. When the Reapers showed up, the Asari buried their heads in the sand like the smurf elf pussies they are on their homeworld, leaving the other races to fend for themselves, than promptly got their asses kicked by the Reapers (Which they probably deserved it for being such [[Eldar|self-righteous and selfish cockbags]]). Perhaps one of the few instances of a Mary Sue being both invoked and subverted.

*[[Angry Marines]]. When was the last time YOU heard of an Angry Marine LOSING? Thought no-{{BLAM}}
{{BLAM|+The current author has been executed by the Inquisition to prevent the total destruction of the Imperium of Man by Angry Marines. Thank you and have a nice day.+}}

* The Draka, once human, then Posthuman slaver empire from the Domination Series by S.M Stirling, collapsing the "Bullying, slaving, torture-happy, heartless Karma Houdini asshole who is the channelized catharsis of the author rather than genuine art." shtick into a black hole the size of the galaxy. South African British colony turns into a nation of literal "[[Drow]] in human skin" when due to (mis)fortune, every losing side from wars against tyranny gets exiled to Drakia, the British colony named after Francis Drake. Turning chattel slavery into a race-wide, airtight regulated franchise in the case of blacks, they exploit entire Africa by taking the colonies belonging to the enemies of British people. Unifying in a Spartan way of life, completely shedding any morality in the case of slave control, eventually Draka Dominion declares independence from the British Crown, and turns entire Africa into a mega plantation with industrial giants enticed by obscene handouts exploited from Africa. The Draka then adopt Nietzschean ideals, and declare every non-Draka a slave, or a potential slave. Somehow the First World War results in Ottoman Empire being overran by them, and eventually the Draka start turning white people into slaves starting from Italy with approval of Hitler and employ black slave soldiers who are given ample living standards and items with free rape of anyone that is captured.
** This (Post-World War 2) is where the story turns from an [[Edgy]] /pol/-fanfic to pants-on-head retarded FAPfic. Though the series display a very detailed alternate history AND technological evolution (steamer cars phased out far later than combustion engine driven ones), the Draka's endless S&M laden plantation slave bitch fantasy hits overdrive and they simultaneously conquer Russia, Europe minus , and entire CHINA with black soldiers and their white masters that were, mind you, from an Africa that wasn't overpopulated but ecologically protected. They do not lose one, ONE battle while rampaging and raping and enslaving. Their methods are extremely savage: impalement and rape are regular actions at every resistance, and the black soldiers can take out any psychosis forming from mass atrocities on other slaves back home, every capture tortured until completely broken before being enslaved. Their research facilities have *zero* ethics, using up millions of humans in torturous experiments to develop fantastic drugs, bioweapons and medications since, well, their citizens are drilled from age 2 to 18 with a Nietzsche-on-crack ideology to circumvent a sudden case of conscience to heart. Eventually they change the Draka Citizen DNA to that of an immortal superhuman species, destroy the rest of non-Draka armies with [[/pol/|weaponized AIDS]] and make all slaves into docile abhumans and take over the rest of the world, rape all the women and men, destroy every monument and cultural heritage not belonging to them, turn the USA into a hunting reserve to hunt humans like animals (and eat them sometimes). Then the Draka expand into alternate universes, infiltrating our world and its parallel versions and start taking them over as well and enjoying immortal, eternal exploitation of everyone everywhere forever. What the entire US and UK plus the rest of Asia, Japan, Southeast Asia does is to create an Alliance that walks on eggshells and fucks up every espionage action against the Draka, loses every battle and ends up escaping to Alpha Centauri. S.M Stirling eventually writes a sequel where an alternate Earth has the [[Humanity's_Last_Stand|human Alliance win for a a change]], but the damage is already done. We are graced with the endless plantation BDSM fetish fantasy of bisexual, blonde, white, transhuman, constantly horny blue-eyed men and women fucking their farm slaves of either gender and make them work their asses off after breaking them in of every little inch of their personalities. A particularly nasty lesbian Draka is Stirling's Creator Pet: she manages to capture the sister of an American soldier who killed her lover and makes her a slave. She tortures her with a mental chip for years to destroy her brain, forcing her to bear her lover's clone children, and rapes her mentally, and eventually, physically. And her side wins the war, the girl escapes an old ruined wreck into space(albeit back to her brother), and our bitch spends her long, long life to torture and kill surviving Alliance holdouts for fun, happily raping, killing and torturing ever after. Seriously, even Kosak had more of a shred of decency, Stirling.

* The [[Drow]] from [[Drowtales]]. Their Mary Sue factor isn't even funny. Shaped by several inputs from several authors, their Drow are the best example of how too many cooks ruin a soup as well as the main author's high school misantrophy hitting overdrive. The Drowtales' Drow are practically immortal, have regenerating limbs, never menstruate, possess metals that are impenetrable to other sentient beings and virtually twice as big and a thousand times as powerful as other races to the point of a few drow kids on an adventure can butcher a city with innocents to save their friend who was about to be killed for its blood, since humans, hunted and enslaved, are desperate to the point of killing elves for their blood just to have an edge. Their houses in underworld have all the modern technology complete with giant walkers and submarines, modern machinery, PARTICLE RIFLES and magitech street lights, but somehow they need human and other races as slaves and this need is shown as just and necessary right at the beginning with the "good" faction's "surface raiders" murdering an entire village and taking women and children to slave markets because the poor widdle drow need slaves and "It's just their unique morality". And the way the webcomic shows them as tragic beings is the cherry on top: I didn't know it was so tragic and sad when the humans counterattack to save their raided relatives from your homes, locked in to be sold as slaves.

* ALL [[Chakat|Chakats!]] The entire fucking race are distilled and purified Mary Sues, sometimes warping stories they are even mentioned in passing. Not just [[monstergirls|feline-centaur]] [[/d/|dick-girls]](Sick Fucks), they're also each master psionicists with faster-than-light mind-reading, able to cure deep neurotic complexes with a good deep dickin', strongest and most stable form of 'Taurs', considered as the most "beautiful thing in the universe" despite looking exactly like lions with the fact that they have dicks, morally perfect to the extreme, nobody technically hates them, their breast milk can turn the most feeble human into mini-Arnold Schwarzeneggers and every non-Chakats seem to have a unnatural and unhealthy lifestyle on trying to "Do it" with them. Despite the fact that there are hundreds of ''other'' Catgirls outside of this furfag heresy, that are more attractive, cuter and prettier then them with the added benefit that they are actually female, [[HERESY|not hermaphrodite abominations]].

* [[Elf|Elves]] are often portrayed this way in fiction(Look above at Drowtales), though there are exceptions and it's becoming rarer for elves to be portrayed as Mary Sues. A lot of their sueness comes from how idealized they are. They're always beautiful, sometimes even without making an effort, either immortal or have very long lifespans and can only die from violence. They're often considered to have the moral high ground yet also be condescending to the younger races, but the elves contempt kept getting justified in some stories. Some have the natural ability to make anything beautiful from even the most base materials, naturally have great magical ability, and are often favored by their gods. However, there are evil elves in fiction and some elves who are morally good without being Mary Sues. Then there are curvy anime rapebait elves (often dark elves) who get high on male smells and secretions and turn into thicc fuckdolls taking massive amounts of dicking.

*[[Doctor Who|Whoverse Humanity]] takes this up to a 100 million in this case. Depending on the timeline, Humanity not only manage to become the dominant ruler of the multi-galaxy not once, but [[What|'''Five Fucking Times!''']] Without any indication on how they manage to conquer the Galaxy, thriving with hostile Aliens that could LOLStomp the Necrons, Eldar, Orks, Tau, Tyranid, Chaos in all it's forms and the Imperium ''combined''. Furthermore not only are they one of the [[Imperium of Man|most numerous species in the Universe,]] but also one of the most adaptable and longest lasting race, as seen when they are one of the [[Grimdark|few species still alive near the end of the fucking Universe.]] To give you an idea on how fucking ludicrous Humanity got within Doctor Who, in just 500 years from present day, Humanity was already a major force in the Galaxy ([[Star Trek|Compare this to most Sci-Fi timelines]] [[Bioware|where Humanity either just started to explore their surroundings]] [[Halo|or already establish a small and insignificant area]]), as well as having weapons that could make [[Strike Legion]] seem useless in comparison, and when you take note on how short the timeline distance is between the present day and the end of the Universe, it just makes you say to yourself....the Fuck? Compare this to say [[Star Wars]] in which they have the excuse of not knowing how long Humanity has been space traveling, or [[WH40K]] where the thousands of years gap of slow progress before the Warp Drive was invented seem much more plausible then this absurd scenario. You know Humanity is a Mary Sue when even the near-death of the Universe can't kill them off....until a certain Dues Ex Machina appeared. To be fair, they only gain their Sueness momentum when a certain Time Lord keep on foiling the plans of countless Aliens attempting to conquer and crush humanity in various stages in time; either that or because the Doctor has a unusually unhealthy Humanophile fetish. They are probably one of the few examples of a "Accidental Mary Sue", in which the Doctor, with his fancy Time gizmos and intellect, unintentionally guided Humanity to such power levels by either saving their asses from certain doom or altering the timeline so they won't fuck up, due to his love of Humans. Granted Whoverse Humanity is definitely far from morally perfect (A substantial amount of Whoverse villains are Humans and the multiple Human Empires itself are morally questionable at best. The Timelords themselves are hardly better than the Daleks at times.), the main point of contention is how influentially powerful they are for such a young race while at the same time, disregarding other more ancient and more powerful races (Silurian, Cybermen, Sontarian, Ice Warriors, etc) that should be the one having more galactic screen time and hegemony then them.
**Whoverse humanity Mary Sueness can't really be blamed on any one author. It's basically what happens when the newer writers don't want to change or retcon forty year old fluff.

* Dwarves as seen in the Artemis Fowl series. While virtually all dwarven exploits described are performed by one Mulch Diggums, most of his Mary Sueness is excused as "dwarven racial talents." His spit can harden into a glowing substance that's strong enough to resist high speed impacts, he can fart hurricanes and shit cannonballs, he can dig a self sealing tunnel through any earth-like substance as fast as a man can run, drink water with his pores, use said pores like suction cups if he's thirsty, hear better than a stethoscope, and has tremorsense to at least a hundred feet. Dwarves are also described as having access to the fairy magic (Common uses include instant healing, invisibility, and mid-grade mind control), but Mulch gave that up to steal things instead. This despite no readily apparent level adjustment, nor any mention of useful powers before those same powers are necessary, puts this race quite firmly in this category.

* LeShay are a race that appeared as a monster in the D&D 3th edition book [[Epic Level Handbook]] and have been completely forgotten about since then like most of what was in that book. They are described as being to elves what elves are to humans only more so. That sentence alone should immediately set off red flags. LeShay are extremely powerful immortals resembling albino elves who are survivors from a civilization that was erased from history. Whoever it was that came up with this race probably did not intend for them to be Mary Sues and the concept of them actually isn't that bad, but they probably would have ended up as Mary Sues if any bad writers had gotten a hold of them.

* The Mandalorians in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, depending whose writing them. While good under the correct writers, under some of the bad ones (Hint, it involves Karen fucking Traviss), they compete with badly written expanded universe Jedi and Sith for the position of Star Wars' Ultrasmurfs. In the expanded universe ALL mandos are elite warrior mercenaries, skilled enough to take out armed enemies with their bare hands and usually packing enough fire power to level a building. They're so badass in fact that they're known to hunt Jedi for fucking sport because they're the only thing that'll give'm a real challenge. Experienced jedi hunters can be good enough to fight them head on despite all their force powers and saber swinging because they have the right gear and experience to counter it. Bear in mind that Mandos do not use the force in anyway. Karen Traviss also writes them with the Mary Sue trait of always being right and people agreeing with them for things they call the Jedi out for that they didn't even do, like create the clone army, and makes them out to be the pinnacle of civilization despite being warmongers with a history of allying with the Sith and trying to conquer the galaxy themselves.
** The most famous Mandalorian, Boba Fett, generally avoids becoming this trope and is just a plain badass (as a bonus he rarely if ever engages in the dick-stroking egomania of Traviss's Mandies), but under bad writers his badassitude can push into this. His father Jango Fett follows this same idea; in fact his origin story partly involves his old merc group of Mandalorians getting slaughtered by a group of Jedi in a moment that reads sort of like "fuck you Karen Traviss". Sure, Jango kills six Jedi with his bare hands in that massacare, but the Jedi he killed were not decades old masters and he is (as an individual) supposed to be that good. The fact that he managed that made Palpatine choose him as the Clone Army template donor.

* [[Avatar|All Na'vi]], the blue-skinned eco-humping gobshites.

* Smurfs. They're portrayed as a peace-loving, quasi-communist society who always come out on top in their primary conflict with an evil wizard family and are idealized to the point of ridiculousness. They're also friends with animals and never have to worry about being eaten even though they're the size of large mice. [[Skub|Then ''again'']], most of the other conflicts they encounter are usually due to one or more of their clan fucking something up in accordance with their [[Derp|singular personality trait]], and overall they seem collectively naive about things to the point of gullibility. Said approach is likely designed to promote the usual aesop of teamwork and the importance of family, so it could be far worse.

* [[Twilight|Vampires in a certain book series]]. Even though they were as gay as fuck (which damaged the reputation of actual vampires).
** [[Vampire]]s in general started in falling in modern years due to their weaknesses being forgotten. They were often portrayed by writers as hard to kill monster that is able to use magic, good at many martial arts, good swordsman, master scholar, good charismatic looking in appearance, living in big castles while commanding other monsters like they were their servants or slaves, making them the Elves of the monster world by that definition. Initially in novels like Bram Stoker's Dracula, Vampires had notable weaknesses including regularly drinking the blood of many human victims to stay young and powerful, but later writers dropped this in favor of making Vampires straight up immortal. Seriously, some writers even give them plot armor to get past their weaknesses of holy objects, divine power or sunlight (though the former usually depends on the author's attitude towards religion).
** [[Tremere|Clan Tremere]] (a.k.a. "Tremary Sues") from the ''[[Vampire: The Masquerade]]'' [[RPG|ttRPG game]] are an entire clan of Mary Sues as they were [[Mark Rein·Hagen|the author]]'s pet mages from his previous ''[[Ars Magica]]'' game. Tremary Sues enjoy the narrative absurdity of holding a near-monopoly on vampiric thaumaturgy, despite the fact that older vampiric clans had millennia to perfect thaumaturgy before the first Tremere was ever born.
** Probably one of the best exceptions of this is Count Orlock from the classic silent film ''Nosferatu''. Whereas nowadays vampires get the treatment of being oh-so-sexy, suave, charismatic, pitiable creatures whose lives suck despite being immortal, undead bloodsuckers, Orlok is just a hideous predatory monster out to drink blood and feed. No charisma, no suave, nothing to pity, nothing to feel empathy for. In short, straight-ahead horror vampires done completely right.
** By contrast, the vampires of the House of Night series by mother and daughter team P. C. and Kristen Cast are far worse examples than even Twilight's bastardization. To clarify, vampires worship the goddess Nyx who is the only real goddess, are selected by a tracker when they are a human teen, are the poor, oppressed minorities of the world even though literally almost every famous person in human history was a vampire, will become utterly handsome and beautiful unless they reject the Change in which case they are afforded no sympathy as they die due to events outside their control, every negative stereotype is because of stupid humans, they can never due anything bad...in short, vampires done so badly that Twilight is more believable as good vampire literature. Seriously.

== Mary Suetopias ==

As mentioned in the main article, there are some cases of entire civilizations getting the "Mary Sue" label with some justice. Here are a few.

* The Draka, before they become a species, are usually held to be a fairly strong example of a Villian Suetopia. See above in Mary Sue Races for more.
* Anarchist habitats in [[Eclipse Phase]]. To quote TVTropes, they "are apparently flawless societies where robots and nanofabricators provide for everyone, crime is virtually non-existent due to surveillance sensors everywhere and well-armed populaces, and there's no shortage of spare bodies like there is in the Transitional Economies."
* Aldis, from [[Blue Rose]], has this accusation thrown at it, with some justification.
* The various civilizations of Ayn Rand's science fiction are either Mary Suetopias or Villain Suetopias. No inbetween.

* [[Ultramar]]. Need more be said?


There are some "special cases" (parodies, twists, and deconstructions), that are worth mentioning:

* Ursula K. LeGuin's "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" is... odd. Go read it if you want more, because it's ''very'' short. 
* Rapture and Columbia from the Bioshock series are "functionalist" Suetopias: Because the games are about killing lots and lots of dudes, you need to have those dudes be crazy or assholes or both. Rapture could actually be interpreted as a criticism of Ayn Rand's Suetopias by showing how they will go wrong in a less ideal world.
* The original "Utopia" by Thomas More is interesting, in that it somewhat parodies the concept before it existed. To provide two examples, "Utopia" is a pun on ''eutopia''-"good place", and ''outopia''-"no place", and the frame story narrator's name translates as "Peddler of Nonsense". Yes, this means that the man who literally coined the term Utopia immediately considered it wishful fantasy.
* Mordent, from [[Ravenloft]], has a somewhat interesting twist. Its Darklord focuses more on Ghosts than on the living, so the living aren't the focus of the horror, and as such, for Ravenloft, it's a relative Utopia ''for the living''. Once you die there, however...
* Kurt Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron" is widely interpreted as a parody of such works.
* The Federation of [[Star Trek]] seems like a Mary Suetopia on the surface. However because the show was initially focused on morality stories the "Insane Admiral" trope crops up every now and then, showing some leaks beneath the surface. In latter seasons of TNG and all Deep Space Nine those leaks become full blown cracks, with the Maquis and the consequences of the Dominion War. Captain Sisko even rants about this a few times during the show. Earth in Star Trek is practically a paradise compared to most other planets in the galaxy, and thus "It's easy to be a saint in paradise." With examples such as the Federation spy agency Section 31 engineering a virus to use on The Dominion's Founders(aka rulers) or Sisko himself collaborating with a former Cardassian spy/assassin to bring the Romulans into the war via a ''massive'' fraud.

* Alpha Complex, from [[Paranoia]]. Need more be said?


== Somewhat Special Cases ==

There are a few cases of characters who could be referred to in-universe as a Sue, or serve as a non-joking deconstruction of the idea, or are referred to above sufficiently to be worth describing, but aren't actually Sues. (Characters who veer in and out of Suedom depending on the writer or episode go on the main list, BTW.)

* The Crimson King from Stephen King's Dark Tower series. He's talked up as a big threat, and his plan legitimately threatens the universe; but when confronted, he turns out be a paper tiger, whose chief power was getting so many people and monsters working on one page on his plan to destroy the world, and was otherwise actually rather mediocre compared to them. Given the heavy theme of '''disappointment''' in both the series as a whole and the last book of it in particular, this sorta worked on a meta level, but was very, well, disappointing. (For the reason he's included here, see Darkseid above.)
* Griffith, from [[Berserk]], seems a Mary Sue on the surface, leading the efforts to save Midland and defeat the Kushan invaders while everything goes his way and everyone praises him... but then you remember that he's also a member of the Godhand who's got reality-warping powers and uses them to manipulate everything and everyone around him to his advantage. Basically, Griffith hacked the game and then began playing on the lowest difficulty, while making it harder for everyone else. If anything, Griffith is all the common jokes people make about a Mary Sue deconstructed, showing how utterly awful and soulless such a person would actually be. On the other hand, one of his former Warband member, Rickert, saw through his bullshit and slapped him for it even though he was not there when Griffith betrayed his comrade. So not everyone is falling for Griffith.

* Jonathan, from the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Superstar", provides a pretty good case study of the in-universe Mary Sue.

*Momonga/Ainz Ool Gown from Overlord boarders on Mary-Sueish and is the protagonist of an [[Isekai]] work, but is also a decent deconstruction of invincible Villain Sues at the same time. He is transported to a fantasy world as his [[Lich]] MMO avatar, along with his Guild Hall and all its NPCs, now alive. He's still a no-life (literally) Japanese salary man, but finds he has lost his humanity and feelings, all the better to pretend to be (and eventually become) the overlord his adoring minions expect. These expectations pressure him to conquer the world with his gamer skills, system knowledge and corporate experience, min-maxing his way to success whilst bullshitting people that he's an evil mastermind. He still has many advantages however in resources, magic and diplomacy (substituting sales pitches for evil monologues, surprisingly easy) compared to all other characters so far. This results in him single-handedly winning wars, having an Empire become a vassal state almost by accident, and annexing a whole town from a neighbouring kingdom to rule over (Word of god is that no other YGGDRASIL players will appear). Being by many definitions OP, drama arises from him not having complete control and knowledge of his minions' actions. Though fanatically loyal they are constantly guessing his true intentions to try and impress him, misinterpreting his commands, and in some cases almost outright deceiving him. Two such examples are Ainz's advisor Albedo plotting behind his back to kill other Supreme Beings that he wants alive and unharmed, and Demiurge harvesting human captives to make magical items (Ainz himself mistakenly thinks Demiurge is only using animals because Demiurge refers to humans as animals on account of his contempt for mortal races). Both are in part because of Ainz's actions, and in any case, he has ordered equally terrible things himself. :* While most of Ainz's female guardians lust after him, even this is deconstructed. Albedo's a succubus, so lust is par the course, and yandere for Ainz because he altered her code in YGGDRASIL to change her from " a slut" to "in love with Momongo" as a joke. Shalltear wants Ainz because he's a walking skeleton and she's a necrophile (and not to Ainz' taste being a loli vampire; yeah... even then she holds her absent YGGDRASIL creator in higher esteem than Ainz) and Aura keeps a lid on her crush (she's also a flat-chested teenage elf and wary of jealous reprisals from Albedo and Shalltear). Ultimately, the fact that Ainz is a walking skeleton means he's unable to fulfill their desires or consummate his own.
:*TL:DR: Ainz's skills as a salary man and a competitive gamer don't translate well to politics or world conquest. Without his own gamebreaking powers, his almost as powerful loyal NPCs, his skull poker face and incompetence from some of the enemy commanders, Ainz's plans wouldn't have worked nearly as well.

* The Monkey King, from [[Mythology|Journey To The West]], if one assumes he isn't a religious figure and thus safe to include in this list, is interesting in that while he's very close to being a Mary Sue, several factors drag him away from the classification:
*#He's charged with protecting an unworldly monk, along with a horse, an idiot, and a SUPER idiot. Rescuing them is most of what he does in the main body of the story.
*#He's repeatedly shown as being outwitted by the Buddha. While he's more clever than anybody else besides the Buddha, the implication is clear: there '''are''' people better than him.
*#Even if one cares to dip into a religious reading, one can see in his introduction the clear Buddhist message "No matter how awesome you are, you are still trapped in the machinations of Desire and Karma"; alternately, even if you don't care for religion, there's also the message "make enough of a nuisance of yourself, and your enemies will eventually slap you down even if it means _____" (in the case of the Monkey King, swallowing their pride and asking help from somebody they dislike). (In other words: A deconstruction of certain kinds of Mary Sues, before the idea of a "Mary Sue" was even created.)

* [[The Raven Queen]] is a fairly good example of why "Mary Sue" accusations, unless taken from a Author Centered or Functional perspective, are somewhat useless. TRQ hits many Mary Sue buttons, and thus is sometimes accused of being a Sue; ''HOWEVER,'':
** She's never the protagonist, and when she does appear, she's treated the same as any of the other deities in 4e. Accusations of Functional Suedom thus sort of fall flat.
** While she may hit some Authorial-Centered (or Doyalist) definitions of the term, it's probably more appropriate to compare her to just about any other non-monster female character in 4th Edition D&D in this context--while she is obviously designed to attract those who are attracted to a certain kind of woman, so are all the other non-monster females (to quote a famous demotivator, "RPG Artwork: Let's face it, a lot of it is porn. (Pretty odd porn, too.)").
** She is no longer an example at all due to her backstory being completely rewritten in 5th edition to make her fit in with the setting better. She is no longer even a god since her attempt to become one was sabotaged, turning her into a phantom with a craving for knowledge and memories.

* Saitama from One-Punch Man. A manga/anime/webcomic that satirizes comic book super heroes. As the title says he able to defeat just about any opponent with one punch (with a few exceptions that require two or, rarely, three). While stronger than most of the "S-Class heroes" (the highest rank in the Hero Association), at the start of the series Saitama's personal life pretty much sucked. He had to pinch pennies to eat and had no knowledge of the Hero Association until he was notified by others of it's existence. As most can easily guess his strength makes most fights unsatisfying for him. Even the arc villains who force him to use his Serious Series techniques will leave him bored. Since nobody knew who he was until recently. Credit for his work went to other people and the super hero name he was given by the association is "Caped Baldy".
** Just to be clear, the main reason why he's not actually a Sue has to do with the usual focus of the series: That Saitama gets no satisfaction from his lopsided victories, and the fact that the World's Strongest Man is something of a pathetic loser.

* Rick Sanchez from Rick and Morty. When it comes to his (seemingly) limitless ability to invent crazy sci-fi tech and to get himself out of virtually every tough spot, not to mention with getting away with being a colossal jerk to everyone around him, Rick could qualify as an anti-Sue. But his character is far from perfect, and he often falls under a combination of archetype and deconstruction. As a person, he is an older man who’s had a tough break (divorce and the death of a close family member in some parallel universe), and the fact that he has all this tech and that he either can't solve his personal problems or prevent new ones from occurring. Though the fact that he can be funny, the handful of moments of his positive qualities and being a fictional character do contribute to his likability.
** Again, to be clear: Rick's antics would probably qualify him for the main list, but the show is very clear on a few points that move him here: First, Rick is an asshole, and not the type you want to be, either (it's almost directly stated that his assholery grows from some pretty grim experiences and knowledge); second, Rick is not somebody you want to be, nor be around; and third, the writers realize that he's both of the above.

* The main casts of [[Star Trek]] TOS and TNG (besides Wesley due to being Rodenberry's self insert, above)--in particular, James T. Kirk when not written by William Shatner-- provide a good reference line for Suedom. Although they are usually right by authorial fiat, there are several points that point the other way from Suedom:
*#They are also usually allowed to be wrong about an issue, at least initially (and rarely, but enough to be worth mentioning, all the way to the end of the story)
*#The fact that the focus is usually on the scenario presented, rather then the perfectness of the characters
*#They all have character flaws (even Kirk's "No Such Thing As A No Win Situation" attitude is presented as something that ''could'' get him and his crew killed one day)
*#They are not omni-compitent, even within their field--even Kirk has been outmaneuvered on occasion
*#Most importantly, the writing is usually of sufficient quality to not make their perfectness an issue (except, in Kirk's case, for works written by William Shatner)
*#Notably, as part of #2 and #5, there is no "right" solution to many of the situations beyond "survival"; the audience is usually allowed to draw its own conclusions about the morality of the situation, something usually lacking in the writing of the type of author who perpetrates a Sue.
** Combined, these points make them a good reference line for "hyper-competent" characters: Beyond here may lie Suedom

* At first glance, Tsukiko from [[Order of the Stick]] seems like a textbook Mary Sue, given the LONG list of Mary Sue boxes she ticks: Heterochromatic eyes, great beauty, skimpy clothing, unusually skilled for her young age, Japanese name meaning "moon child", oppressed by a stuck-up society not understanding her greatness etc. But in reality, Rich Burlew wrote her as a satirization and deconstruction of the Mary Sue archetype and the mindset that often creates such characters. The "misunderstanding" in question? They threw her in jail for '''literal''' corpsefucking. (Yes, she's a necrophiliac, and it's treated as being just as gross as it is IRL.) Great beauty? Nobody cares, and it doesn't make her a good person by default. Sees good in the bad guys that nobody else does? It's based on deliberately ridiculous logic that is completely wrong anyway. ([[What|The living are jerks, and the undead are the opposite of the living, ergo the undead must be good people]], she claims, the batshit insanity of which is called out for what it is. Also, she thinks that Xykon is some kind of Edward Cullen type-guy, as opposed to the Chaotic Evil Lich Sorcerer he ''actually is''.) A bad guy becomes a complete dumbass to accommodate her genius? Nope, Redcloak only let her have her way so his own, far more subtle machinations could avoid having attention drawn to them, and when she forces his hand he gladly demonstrates to her that she was completely outclassed by him the whole time. And to really drive home how wrong about herself she was, when she dies nobody on Team Evil gives a damn except the Monster in the Darkness, which only seems to have happened because he/she/whatever is the resident softie of the team. Also, Redcloak let her die at the hands of her own wights, [[Slaanesh|simultaneously her surrogate children, minions and lovers]], after controlling them, removing her ring that made her immune to level drain and giving her a "You suck!" speech about how undead are not people, just complex weapons, her thinking otherwise doesn't make it so and if she ever thought he was powerless before her, she was dead wrong, for a delicious dose of karma.
** TL;DR version: Tsukiko is a parody of a Sue, who is shown to be objectively deluded about everything.


[[Category:Mary Sue]]

List of Mary Sues

2020-10-09T04:48:41Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Mary Sues Case Studies */

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There are too many fucking [[Mary Sues]] in our games and fiction. We know it, and we love to complain about it, because it makes us feel a little better to call a spade a shovel. The original purpose of this list is to provide examples so the phenomenon can be studied, identified and - as a result of the latter - avoided.

(Note: please post Mary Sues in alphabetical order, so they don't fight about who's the better Mary-Sue. Also, this is about fictional characters, so while Canon Sues are acceptable, no real-life examples (even if there is such person named <s>Mary Sue AKA the Scientology founder's wife</s> I'm just adding that for fun). For the sake of peace, religious figures [and possibly mythological characters; particularly when they're from original mythologies] are real-life examples. Also, any characters added to the list without justifying reasons will be removed from this page. If you're going to add a race, please use the list below this one.

==Mary Sues Case Studies==
{{Plot Armour}}
* [[Alice]] from the in-name-only ''[[Resident Evil]]'' movies: A character created for the movies who started out as corporate spy, she has superpowers and is <s>presented as</s> ENTIRELY invincible. She manages to becomes an even bigger Sue when she loses said superpowers yet continues to obliterate armies unscathed. The film refuses to even let other characters do anything but get rescued by her, she's worse than characters written by [[Matthew Ward]]. Later films even gave her clones to explain why she's still in the films. On top of all this, the bitch is played by the director's wife; she's his perfect Mary Sue waifu insert and she's literally sleeping with him to get the job. Don't forget that she dual-wields katanas. And shotguns. And probably Desert Eagles, too.

* Andrew "Ender" Wiggin from Orson Scott Card's Enderverse, and a blatant (almost comical to a serious reader) example at that. What's worse: he only becomes more of this as the story and the books progress. It's even worse in the 2013 movie. At least the books gave the other characters more depth, Ender's feats took more time to achieve, and it contained some POV's that weren't of or about Ender.
** Ender's siblings Valentine and Peter. Ender's sister is a self righteous prig who is only overshadowed by her obnoxious, sociopathic brothers. Peter, Ender's older brother, is even worse. He's a low functioning sociopath, [[What|but intelligent enough that, as a child, he comes up with sophisticated political philosophies that wow academic circles. As an adult, they prove so sophisticated that he's appointed Political Leader of Earth. Despite the fact that a sociopath with absolute power would become a dangerous tyrant as soon as someone refused to do what they say, he doesn't mess up and dies being hailed as a great ruler]]. Yes, this really happens.

* [[Batman]] in an unskilled author's hands. He's a handsome human billionaire who's the pinnacle of human physical prowess and manages to defeat superpowered beings simply because "he had time to prepare" (with few thinking "why don't his opponents also use that time to prepare?"). On top of this he has LITERAL PLOT ARMOR; one of the DC editorial mandates is that Batman is not allowed to be truly defeated (he's usually too popular and has a presence in too much of the DC Universe to be allowed the downtime by editorial, unless it's part of a major storyline such as Knightfall). Because of this a certain tendency for Batman to turn into a Mary Sue is well documented (Read JLA: Act of God and weep; that story was all about starting the First Church of Batman. Or hell, check out the Dark Nights: Metal storyline, where a bunch of Evil Batmen who are variants on an existing superhero attack the DCU as opposed to, say, just doing a whole Evil Justice League like they have multiple times before). While Batman does have plot armor (nearly no one thinks to just shoot him when they get the chance and the few times they do he escapes, and he's never unexpectedly engaged by superhuman opponents who could easily beat him - like Darkseid), the same can be said for other non-superpowered heroes. That being said, there are many ways of adding dramatic tension to such a foregone conclusion situation, and the above mandate only includes actual defeat, so Batman is allowed to fail and make mistakes in certain situations or the villain can escape to cause trouble even after their plan is thwarted, which also helps lessen the Bat-Sue Factor.

* [[Edgy|Billy Butcher from "The Boys"]] (comics and show, especially the comics) is a prime example of a Jerk Sue (An unsympathetic character nevertheless favored in the story, [[TVTropes|according to our frenemeies]]). A superpower-hating vigilante because a "super" raped and killed his wife ("There's a difference between having a sympathetic backstory and actually being sympathetic"), Billy is half Punisher-knock-off, half Author Avatar for Garth Ennis. While most superheroes in this series are notorious for being corporate sellouts who often abuse their powers and sponsorships, Billy is clearly equally motivated by personal prejudice against people with superpowers (something he shares with the author like his prejudice towards religion, especially Christianity; it's no coincidence that Billy's an atheist while the antagonist Homelander is a Christian Pastor). While Billy does help the protagonist Hughie try to get justice for his girlfriend’s death by superhero collateral damage, Billy's reasons are selfish and he's also an edgelord (mean-spirited? check. violent? check. dark clothes? check. created by edgelord author? check. anti-establishment? that's a big check!) , one that nearly turns on Hughie when Hughie starts dating the superhero defector Starlight. Even becoming a villain via wanting to genocide all people with superpowers after he gets them only adds "Villain Sue" to the list, as Billy only loses in the end because he chooses to. He’s also consistently never allowed to be wrong, as any time a character has something to say about Billy or his actions, he has something to throw back at them proving they’re actually wrong due to author fiat ensuring Billy only argues against strawmen. Goes to show that making a Mary Sue an edgelord is just as repellent as the “sweet, inclusive and peace-obsessed” opposite, especially when they’re also the author’s hypocritical, preachy mouthpiece.

* Caius Ballad, the antagonist of ''Final Fantasy XIII-2''. Impractical overdesigned costume? Check. Impractical giant, overdesigned sword? Check. Purple hair? Check. Story-breaking powers? Check. Can't be beaten? Check. Openly called the most powerful ''Final Fantasy'' villain ever by his creator? Check. The only mitigating feature this fool has is that his English VA is Liam O'Brien.

* Darkseid from DC Comics is a rare case where people actually ''like'' someone for being a Sue. He wasn't one at the start of his career - Jack Kirby conceived him as a paper tiger who, for all his grandiose plans and ambitions, was only powerful if people feared him and could be beaten up by two street thugs who didn't know who he was, not anticipating that fans might prefer a villain who was really as intrinsically powerful as Darkseid claimed to be. He's strong and tough enough to go toe-to-toe with Superman, he has laser eyes that can do whatever he wants them to (including killing people instantly or bringing them back to life), he's a masterful schemer who knows all about setting up gambits where he wins no matter what and striking deals with easy ways around them he doesn't mention, most of his minions rival the Justice League in power and on top of all that he's the ruler of an entire planet that reliably goes to shit when he's not around to slap it into shape and sometimes a wide-reaching galactic empire. Despite all this Villain Sue-ness, any attempts to nerf him or bring him down to a more realistic villain level are met with backlash and outrage, and his most celebrated storyline in recent comics history is Final Crisis, in which the heroes required a time-travelling, god-killing bullet to defeat him and he actually forced Batman to abandon his rule against killing. The message is clear: Darkseid is DC's ultimate villain (or close enough to that status that the number of people higher than him can be counted on a hand or two/ doesn't require literal divine intervention etc. to defeat and thus retaining a meaningful conflict) and the fans won't settle for anything less.
** There's a reason for this, by the way: Darkseid and his court neatly fill the archetypal niche of embodiments of "the fucked up things people do when you give them power", with, for example, Gods of Child Abuse and of Torture as two of his chief henchmen. If you're going to have a hero who's about Hope and positive, creative or protective Aspirations (see: Superman, Flash, etc.), a villain who embodies the crushing of hope and negative, destructive Aspirations is incredibly useful. Making such a character a paper tiger can be made to work (see the Crimson King, under Special Cases), but is going to be unsatisfying, usually deeply so.

* Divis Mal from the RPG [[Aberrant]]. Oh, where to begin? Well, first of all on top of being the absolute, balls-out, most powerful Aberrant in the setting, ever, he's super smart, plans for everything, never loses ''no matter what the players do'', and has an ideology that can basically be described as "like Magneto, only ''right''. About ''everything.''" He's also in a loving relationship with a super-attractive partner who is ''also'' super-powerful, and his enemies are all stupid and happen to be straw-stuffed right-wing stereotypes because of course they are. He also serves as a thinly-veiled self-insert fanfic character for the lead game designer (a gay man with issues), and said designer once claimed that the title of the game referred to ''him specifically''. It was all the sequel game could do to take the piss out of all the problems he caused.

* Dr. Doom, depending on the writer. It doesn't help that he's a genius and self-made tycoon with a tragic past, who keeps getting his deaths retconned as body doubles (naming the infamous "Actually a Doombot" trope). Worst case scenarios are when he's written by somebody that forgets that he's a VILLAIN and depicts his rule over Latveria as unrealistically benign, and makes it look like the superheroes are wrong for trying to keep him from taking over the world.

* Elizabeth from ''Bioshock Infinite''. Plot-sustaining power (the key to the whole plot literally rests in her hands), cannot be harmed, <s>makes a grown veteran of war look like an idiot child</s> only if you suck at the game... Regardless, she is routinely placed in easily escapable situations for the pure purpose of being saved when she can plausibly save herself, and makes none of the major (or minor) mistakes in the game. While some claim that she greatly dislikes violence, especially killing, individual interpretations vary depending on whether you view her murders as character arc-defining. To make her comparable to Sues like Lightning and Alice, Ken Levin told the trolls who [[rule 34|34'd]] his perfect wife purpose, which result in a hilarious reverse psychology that gave Ken Levin [[promotions|what he wanted]]. She even gets to be tied into how Fontaine got Jack's (bioshock 1 mc) command code in the first bioshock. Way to ruin the franchise with some conventional plot device.

*[[Elminster]], who is currently having a threesome with the goddess of magic and rad boobies and his adopted super-hot albino elf daughter while simultaneously beating the god of murder in a sword fight with one hand and the god of slavery in a magic fight with the other. Also, he's like a million years old and looks it. Ed Greenwood's self-insert character in the [[Forgotten Realms]], and a big source of "Why doesn't he just do this for us?" questions whenever he appears in questlines. Also, along with the gods of the setting and the Harpers, he's one of the reasons why the Forgotten Realms are in [[Medieval Stasis]].
**Ironically he didn't start out originally like this. Back at the beginning of D&D, Elminster wasn't a massive Mary Sue. Believe it or not, he simply used to be a maxed-out wizard with some additional abilities and stuff that appeared as a Deus Ex Machina in case players had an encounter that was too difficult to overcome, much like Gandalf in [[The Hobbit]].

*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TedsiCaV2B4 Empress Theresa] is a good example of the "waifu" theory of Mary Sues and the Doyalist definition of Mary Sues, where the author's relationship to the character is the defining factor. Short version: Deranged author who can't take criticism creates his perfect waifu, hands her the world, and refuses to edit the resulting masterpiece, and posts the result for sale on Amazon. Criticism results, which in turn results in internet arguments on a scale that is ''amazing'' (by themselves, they dwarf all of the arguments and criticisms of the Twilight franchise put together, with the unsettling add-on that this is all the author's mindset).

*Every author self-insert. Especially those found in high-school writing assignments.

*Green Lanterns from Earth, especially Hal Jordan. All the human Green Lanterns are regularly shown to be the best Lanterns in the core because they ALL have indomitable willpower, skill, and courage, surpassing others who have been in the corps for decades. Most other lanterns exist only to be killed off as a means of showing how dangerous a threat is. They're only ever effective when they are helping the Human ones. The most Green Lanterns ever killed was during the Emerald Twilight story arc and they were killed by, you guessed it, Hal Jordan.

*Haoh from Shaman King. If there is any villain that can truly be called a Mary Sue, it's him, most other villains with this accusation still get defeated. Haoh not only proves invincible throughout the whole series, able to easily pull of feats that are impossible for everybody else, he also has the ability to revive himself if killed, meaning even if the heroes beat him, which they state is impossible in a straight-up fight, it would be pointless, because he'd just back even stronger. Worse is that he goes around saying how awful humans and everyone, even the writer, seems to agree with him because the series ends with him winning, only delaying his plans to kill humanity because reasons, and gets away with a number of atrocities that would make numerous the [[Warriors Of Chaos]] jealous.

*IG-88 in the ''Star Wars'' expanded universe, given that he easily breaks into the second Death Star and uploads his personality into it and takes control with nobody noticing, and before that single-handedly took over a planet.

*[[James Bond]]. To what degree varies, but the Roger Moore version is the worst offender: he's unbeatable at just about everything, never loses his composure, a ladies' man to an unrealistic degree (even lesbians and villains who stand for everything he opposes switch sides after a dicking from Bond, not to mention that time he had sex with a lesbian was questionable consent at best...so Bond gets away with actual sexual assault if not outright rape), implausibly intelligent, a crack shot, and basically unkillable. In the books, he is an unlikable git and an alcoholic, yet still gets shit done.

*James T. Kirk of [[Star Trek]], but only when written by William Shatner. While in TOS, Roddenberry himself outright stated Kirk was his Author Avatar and that he wanted the show to have the ambiance of Kirk being able to have any woman he desired, Kirk was still allowed to occasionally fail or make mistakes in certain situations. For other non-Shatner written works, the Suedom factor is kept under control by factors gone into under the list found under "Somewhat Special Cases", below.

*John Galt, Dagny Taggart and most of the cast from Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged", which figures given her literature's reputation for being barely-disguised political sermon. Galt frequently has the narrative grind to a halt in order to focus on his inane views, somehow single-handedly grinds the economy to a halt by founding a libertarian utopia where no 'communists' can hold him or other similar geniuses back, and is shilled as the only sane man after the rest of the world becomes a dystopic hellhole without said "genius". Then there's the primary female character, a wannabe railroad tycoon trying to get a new train line built despite the fact that "evil socialists" can't keep them running without crashing every few hours because of mean ol' unions and regulations oppressing the poor upper class. Said woman somehow manages to bed Hank Rearden, local inventor of a metal alloy supposedly even stronger than steel called Rearden Metal. Yes, just drips with creativity, don't it? It's telling that the Bioshock series, based off her work, is far better received and a more realistic depiction, generally due to taking the prospect of a single man basically playing God to its logical conclusion (I.E. another dystopia but now with blackjack and hookers).

*John Kramer, the "Jigsaw Killer" from the ''Saw'' films. Pick any character you know of with a long list of skills or attributes, this guy has more, and he keeps getting away for a half dozen movies. He's also influenced people to the point that even after he dies, some of them copy his actions and ideas and think they're doing good things.

*Jon Snow (especially the show version): While this is in the books as well, it is more evident in the show and he is currently dying from a mutiny in the books. Being a bastard is a bad thing in Westeros so he gets sent to the wall, but it's uphill from there. He gets a Valyrian steel blade (which is incredibly rare and an heirloom of noble houses) in his first week. He has a pet Direwolf puppy like his siblings, but of course his looks unique. From here he gets named as squire and successor to the commander of the Night's Watch (though this does cause some resentment among his peers). Later on he meets Wildings where he spares one who turns out to be a woman; it's obvious where this goes... they don't get along, they fall in love, have sex and spend some time together, something forces them apart and she dies. She also has red hair, which stands out because among Wildings its considered lucky. While he gets stabbed like in the books, in the show he dies from it then gets resurrected by Melisandre/the Lord of Light. He's revealed to be the bastard child of Rhaegar Targereyn and Lyanna Stark, making him Westeros' rightful king, as well as Daenerys' nephew - but that doesn't stop him from having sex with aunt Daenerys*, and this time the incest is portrayed positively! Also, him beating Ramsay Bolton (see below); that's right, Jon's so Mary Sue his plot armor trumps the plot armor of another Mary Sue (to be fair, though, he was actually on the verge of loosing the big battle to Ramsay right up until the moment his ass gets saved by his little sister and about four thousand mounted knights.) While some of the earlier traits don't necessarily equal a Mary Sue, they add up... oh, they add up (*Daenerys, a warqueen who brought dragons back from extinction among other things, makes mistakes and suffers consequences that would seem to impact her Sue-factor if they didn't always turn out to be functionally inconsequential in comparison to her astounding triumphs through casual part-time parenting.) Book Jon is way more well rounded as a character, where it is pointed out that he actually had a decent life as a bastard before coming to the Watch, and several choices he made ended up biting him in the ass come the mutiny.

*Jotaro Kujo, from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Part 3 and 4 (And part 6 but not in part 6... we'll get to that later). He's pretty much invincible like Kenshiro, but unlike Kenshiro, he didn't train a single day to be as hax as he is (His Stand "Star Platinum" is really strong, at the cost of short range, but plot gets in the way and he always gets close enough to ORAORA the bad guys). Also unlike Kenshiro, he is an asshole to everyone, but never suffers any consequences from it (Women literally ADORE him despite his jerkass attitude, because 80's). He spends the entire trip to Egypt spurting out massive amounts of [[Just as planned]] against every villain of the week, or simply getting powers as plot demands, some of the most outrageous examples being: The use of "Star Finger", which completely negates the previously stated range weakness; His "battle" against Steely Dan, where he DID get humilliated but retributed it tenfold in the end; His "battle" against Alessi, where he gets to beat a grown man unconscious with his bare fists despite being turned back into a SEVEN YEAR OLD; His battle against main villain DIO where he wins DIO's time stopping powers for bullshit reasons and wins; and, even more ridiculously, being able to RESURRECT his very dead Grandpa Joseph by [[what|using his stand for blood transfusing and heart-resetting]]. In part 4 he mellows down a lot, most notably [[FAIL|getting beaten by a rat]], but that doesn't prevent him from beating the shit out of the main villain Kira TWICE and stealing the spotlight from Uncle Josuke (The titular Jojo of part 4) on his final battle; too bad Josuke!. Part 6 however, does a great job at not only nerfing but rounding him altogether, the Jojo this time being his own daughter, Jolyne Cujoh (Note that is not Kujo), a delinquent who ends out in prison and resents him greatly for being an awful, absent father and constantly reminds him of it. He attempts to "fix" things but [[Just as planned|falls into one of main villain Pucci's schemes]] and is rendered comatose for great part of the story, when he latter regains his powers (With a significant decrease in durability) and comes to terms with Jolyne, the villain becomes Godlike and ends out killing him along with the entire universe; too bad Shonen Jump!, now seinen is Araki's best friend. In Pucci's universe he is a complete spineless weakling, but in case that was a bit too much, reality resets again and creates [[Awesome|a new universe free of the Joestars Tragic Fate and Part 3's bullshit]]. PD: In the Videogame Eyes of Heaven he is even worse, but this entry is already too long so i'll only say the creators weren't too good with resolutions.

*Kai Leng, from ''[[Bioware#Mass_Effect_3_.28The_Downfall.29|Mass Effect 3]]''. You're constantly told he's a badass assassin, but when he shows up, Shepard's crew suddenly become drooling idiots so Leng can strut about, act tough, and monologue. He brags about killing Thane (alien assassin squadmate from the previous game) even though the latter was hobbled by a terminal illness requiring daily medical care and Thane ''STILL'' got the drop on Kai Leng; Thane even says himself "That other assassin should be embarrassed. A terminally-ill Drell kept him from reaching his target." When you "win" the "fight" against him on Thessia, he still gets away, utterly unaffected by the crumbling architecture that stops Shepard from pursuing him. By the end of the fight, you've advanced the plot a grand total of nowhere, regurgitated information you already have, and been hamstrung as a player because the writer wants his character to look cool. He is yet another antagonist dropped onto a story filled with them, but is nothing more than a costume, sword, and book of one-liners. Unlike Saren from ME1, we have no connection with this douchebag because the story doesn't give him enough screen time to develop into anything.
** Alternate take: What appears to be Sue-ness is BioWare writing him as a Hate Sink. (Basically a character designed to be hated and nothing else, [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HateSink ask those smashers at TV Tropes for more info].) BioWare were using the Reapers as cool villains and leaning into the Illusive Man getting the Darth Vader treatment of the tragic, sympathetic villain who can possibly redeem himself with his death, so Leng became the game's villainous punching bag. Given what a gut punch the final battle is, clearly they wanted Leng's ultimate downfall to give the player a moment of catharsis so they could take a small victory where they got it. And for that to work, it had to be satisfying, and that meant he had to get on the player's nerves without an excuse or understandable motive to undercut their focused rage against him. Note that during the final battle against him, Shepard spends the whole time dressing him down as a coward who can only win by running away and after beating him, smashes his stupid sword and guts him like a fish with their omni-blade. [[Awesome|"That was for Thane, you son of a bitch!"]]

*[[Fist of the North Star|Kenshiro]], nothing can kill him and he's morally flawless, superior to everyone-fucking-else. At least until Shin Saga in the anime, where he starts fucking up often, even with his super kung-fu laser ninja powers. Most battles are curb-stomps until later on because ''it's a fucking show from the 80's''. Do note, however, that Kenshiro loses a ''lot,'' especially later on, and mostly wins his hardest battles because he's the only one worth a shit left alive by that point in the series.

*Kratos from ''[[God of War]]''. He curb-stomps fucking gods due to [[plot armor]] (and because one of them decided to give a bloody psychopath the powers of a god; MENSA applicant right there) and he has threesomes with complete strangers, even though he is meant to be grieving for the death of his family that he himself murdered. Oh and the rules for how death works change whenever it's convenient for him. Err, some of this is because most of the gods he kills with super-powerful items, including Blade of Olympus, the God of War universe's version of Zeus' lightning bolts the cyclops gave him to defeat the titans, which has been infused with all the power of the Greek God of War. And he is later revealed to house the Power of Hope since GoW1, a power strong enough to kill gods. Now he is starting a new family in Norse mythology land Midgard while STILL having the "godly" super strength despite the blade of Olympus drained all his power and gave it all to the world.(Note that he clearly didn't give up his combat experience nor his genetics as a demi-god son of Zeus. Even without those things, he's at minimum a heavily trained demi-god from the strongest of the Greek gods.) At least he acknowledged how fucking awful he was in the past and tried to be a good father toward his new son Atreus, but still keeping his no gods allowed policy.

*Lana Lang from the TV show ''Smallville'' (note; Smallville is not considered canon to the Superman story by DC Comics). Almost big a Mary Sue as Bella from Twilight; almost because she actually has a few useful skills, but she learns them unrealistically quickly (becoming a black belt in martial arts in ''one week''). She has the cliche orphan story but with a unique spin for maximum snowflake effect (her parents were killed by a meteor strike), everyone in the story loves her with the exception of some villains (the key word is SOME), and she's treated as someone who can do no wrong. Lana even got on the cover of TIME magazine, in-universe, as a child! She serves as a wedge between Clark and having a relationship with any other girl and between Clark and his eventual Superman destiny. Clark technically sacrificed his father to save her! In one episode, Clark rewound time on a day in which Lana died, and instead lost his father.

*Lightning from ''Final Fantasy XIII'', she is basically a pink-haired Cloud without any of Cloud's likable personality traits. She's currently the NEW AND ASTONISHING HEAVENLY Valkyrie that fights a purple Sephiroth in her new game "Lightning's Return". Not that we care, but she was created by Motomu Toriyama ([[Matt Ward]]'s Japanese cousin), a man with a Chris-Chan-like persona and Matthew Ward-style writing who is now continuously raping the franchise. He has a waifu love for Lightning like Paul has for Alice. Lightning is comparable to Alice on many levels, which says a lot, really. She also has tons of fucking DLC "costumes" dedicated to her so the player could dress her up and fap her to death. This is so fucking shameful that I'm crazy enough to believe Alice is a much capable heroine. Somebody kill me, please. Oh, just recently, Toriyama decided to have Lightning become a guest character in a future Final Fantasy. So not only is the franchise gonna suffer the rotting Emperor syndrome, but Lightning is now the literal goddess of every Final Fantasy game? Seriously, have you ever seen Paul doing such disgusting things with Alice? Like forcing Alice into an actual ''Resident Evil'' game (well, the ''Resident Evil'' franchise is dead as well)? Motomu Toriyama is officially worse than Paul Anderson!!
** Gets worse: Toriyama has stated that Lighting is the "first" strong female character in any ''Final Fantasy''. Even ignoring the dozens of better-written female characters, some of which he himself has written, the "strong" meaning just physical doesn't work either; FF7's Tifa (a game he worked on, btw) can punch tanks to death.

*Lisa Simpson from ''The Simpsons'', depending on the writer. Lisa has dipped into Mary Sue-dom the same way as Brian from Family Guy (both serving time as smug mouthpieces for their show's creators on hot-button-topics). There was also a time where Lisa had the tendency to never be punished for the times she does do the wrong doing (she ruins Homer's BBQ in "Lisa the Vegetarian" and merely got scolded by him where Bart would likely have been strangled for it). One episode had people deferring to Lisa over Prof. Stephen Hawking in Hawking's area of expertise, and Groening once said Lisa is his favorite character and that he would do anything to prevent her from looking bad (to reference the strangling; the show's animators also applied a double-standard as they strongly protested against the idea of Homer strangling Lisa for upsetting him like he does with Bart). While Lisa's popularity in-universe fluctuates, at its worst the whole town bends over backwards for her even when it goes past characterization (eg; Springfieldians can be '''VERY''' sore losers, as demonstrated in the episode "Boys of Bummer" where the whole town - sans Marge - ridiculed Bart for losing a sports game [[Grimdark|to the point that they nearly drove the 10 year old to suicide]], but when Lisa lost a spelling contest she was applauded for winning second place and got a Mount Rushmore-style sculpture of her face). That being said, there are episodes where Lisa is depicted as unpopular at school, her activism is made over-the-top to be played for laughs, she's neglected at home and less of a "smartest person around" and more of a "only sane person surrounded by idiots", lessening the Sue-factor.

*Magneto is not inherently one, but he does have the INSANE potential to become this when crappy writers start taking his sympathetic traits too far ("Hey guys, let's [[What|make Magneto a member of the X-Men and have him date Rogue]]!") or just forget he's the bad guy. Hell, he sometimes becomes this even when he's a horribly despicable villain. Jeph Loeb's raping of the Ultimate Universe known as "Ultimatum" has him use his magnetic powers to nearly destroy the world just by waving his hands at Earth's magnetic poles (completely breaking the laws of physics in the process) and then effortlessly take on half the X-Men and almost all of the Ultimates singlehandedly and nearly win.

*Master Chief from the ''[[Halo]]'' series is definitely one. For one, he has [[Matt Ward|Ward-grade]] [[Heresy|plot armor]]. Seriously, it was repeated throughout the games that he was born with the word [[What|'''LUCK''']]. To further expand on his Sueness, this 7-foot tall hunk of raging Leprechaun saved the entire Galaxy ''Twice!'', single-handedly stopped the Human-Covie War at the last minute, escaped and defeated an entire race of "Super-Space-Zombie-Fungus" that could mindfuck Culture-tier Civilizations without [[What|having his own brain being raped]], is one of the last surviving SPARTAN II's, solo an entire legion of Covenant Honor-Guards (Which are equivalent to Spacemarine Captain in rank but with inferior gear and training) as well as successfully assassinating a very important Covie leader protected by said Guards without being captured, survived escaping an Exterminatus-level explosion that destroyed a Super-Weapon 'Ring' by ''out-flying it'', somehow his armor is strong enough to deflect Fuel-Rod shots (Which are essentially Plasma Cannons), destroy a flying and mentally psychotic lightbulb with an overcharged Lascannon as a Self-Defence weapon (To be fair 343 Guilty Spark ''is'' a Forerunner Janitor Robot), and did I mention he saved the entire Galaxy ''twice''? Furthermore with the release of Halo 4, MC is now magically gifted the genes and DNA by the Librarian to become full on [[RAGE|''impervious to a fucking Forerunner Super-Weapon/Death-Beam'']], which allows him to single-handedly fight through the insides of a very important Forerunner Capital Ship filled with Necron/Warp-Spiders kill bots and somehow through the act of plot, [[Derp|defeat ''the'' highest ranked Forerunner Military General that has the power to solo the entire Galactic Empire from Star Wars.]] I mean [[Rage|WTF!]] did the developers of Halo not realize that they just created a character with plot-armor so powerful that they make the likes of [[Kaldor Draigo]] look decent in comparison? Thankfully however, as pants-on-head retarded as some of the feats listed for MC are, he at least has some faults such as being psychologically raped in childhood, doesn't have the "Morally Superior to thou" personality and has a very grim view of the war, almost got killed by the killer space popcorn, being rather mediocre for a SPARTAN II when compared to his other colleagues, is only good in leadership and even then made some stupid mistakes, gets pretty beaten the fuck up by a Brute, his Superhuman abilities only stopped when fighting against low-ranked Elites and know he will lose against one if he fought one-by-one, and most of the battles he has been through had almost cost him his life. Those faults listed are what makes good old Chiefy ''NOT'' in the top 10 most powerful Mary-Sues and makes him somewhat tolerable albeit boring compared to the other listed.

*Moka Akashiya from Rosario + Vampire: Stupidly fucking OP enough to one-shot kick '''EVERY OTHER FUCKING MONSTER''' IN THE '''ENTIRE FUCKING SERIES''' AND '''BOTH''' SEASONS, has a ''special exception'' to her power levels made so she gets 'first ancestor' vampire blood to enable her to be ''even more powerful'', has no character development ''at all'' (both her personalities), is a student at an academy and one-shot kicks two members ''of the fucking faculty'' '''AND TOTALLY GETS AWAY WITH IT''', and is ''unbearably arrogant'', revelling in her power and basically saying everyone else is beneath her. Not even other OP fucking vampires OLDER THAN HER can beat her. The only reason she's this bad? The author admits he LOVES vampires. So she's not only an Author Avatar, but a Canon Sue as well, existing only for [[Heresy|heretical deviants]] to fap to and the author to [[Slaanesh|schlick]] to. God-Emperor fucking damn it, Akihisa Ikeda. You little shit. What's worse is that [[Matt Ward|he has no shame about it]]. [[C.S.Goto| No, really]]. Even those who initially get one over on her before getting kicked are '''MORE''' OP ''fucking vampires''. Not really, she's easily one-uped by non-vampires with many characters introduced in S1 & especially S2 who rather easily take her down. Compared to the big leagues, she's a promising new recruit but not comparable to them.

*Mordenkainen (Gary Gygax's personal avatar in the Greyhawk setting and a level 30 wizard who never fucking ages past 50 despite being a hundred fucking years old without turning into a lich, he became bald for some reason, which makes him look evil, but he remains Stupid Neutral).

*Olympia Vale, another character from the [[Halo]] Series and seems to be all around taking over the mantle of Mary Sue from Master Chief as he is pushed in the sidelines like an old man being pushed in the old folks home. Whilst Locke has been accused for being a rather bland and forgettable copycat cutout of the original MC, he still pales in comparison to that of Vale. Essentially imagine Vale as MC but remove the sociopathic and borderline mentally damaged aspects of John 117, make her a prodigy even beyond that of Spartan recruits which in turn made her pretty easy to integrate in the SPARTAN IV program and make her instantly learn the language of the Elites whilst by herself in space with the only excuse being that [[Bullshit|'she was bored'.]] Vale and to an extent, the majority of the SPARTAN IV's seem to be an ongoing campaign from Karen Traviss (AKA the Destroyer of Fluff and Halo's Matt Ward) [[Derp|to further demonize Halsey and her SPARTAN II program]] for no better reason other than being forced to be [[Fail|unethical in an organization as ethically sound as the]] [[Inquisition|Imperial Inquisition.]] As you can imagine, this has already spurred some [[Skub|ire bitching]] in the Halo community and only time will tell if newer sequels from the game would flash her character out in a more decent or obscene matter.

*Ozymandias, AKA, Adrian Alexander Veidt from ''Watchmen''. He was born into a wealthy family, then threw it all away and earned even more money. He's a perfect athlete, good-looking, smartest man in the world (He mind fucked Dr. Manhattan, a blueish godlike superhuman) and a vegetarian. In the book he is able to successfully genetically engineer some sort of monster that would be teleported to New York and as it dies unleash a psychic shockwave that would kill millions in a "common enemy" plot to avert World War 3 by uniting them against "interdimensional aliens" (he does the same in the movie, but instead of aliens, he tricks people into making Dr Manhattan their common enemy - Dr Manhattan himself goes along with the plan once he finds out so there will be world peace). The only downside he had is loneliness, since he had betrayed all his friends and killed the only companion in his life, a fucking genetically-engineered female lynx named Bubastis, by having her bait Dr. Manhattan to the incinerator and killed them both with a switch. Still, Ozymandias is perfect because Mary Sue don't need friends. It was also portrayed that his "common enemy" scheme to stop World War 3 (which involved killing millions) in a positive or at least sympathetic light. He also caught a bullet fired from a gun with his bare hands, and the bullet didn't just go through them, like it would in real-life, despite him not having superpowers. Interesting to note that he the idol he worships: Alexander of Macedonia, is a man born before Christ, and the name Ozymandias is reference to a freaking [[Necron|Egyptian pharaoh: Ramses II]], proving that Adrian is just as egoistic as [[Dante]] and the [[Ultramarines]] by have the name of an ancient ruler as his own nickname. Hell, his color page on "before the watchman" made him looked like some sort of floating Jesus!! Thankfully, he has the decency to acknowledge what he did was wrong in the comics while also justifying it as being for the greater good...which it was in that it stopped World War 3, and he is more complex and well rounded as a character than several others.
** There's also the deliberately ambiguous implication that Ozymandias could get some comeuppance in the future (author Alan Moore stated that what happened after the end of the graphic novel is for each reader to decide for themselves); this is done with Dr Manhattan's cryptic response to Ozymandias' question whether things would work out, and Rorschach giving his journal - containing evidence implicating Ozymandias and revealing his plan - to a news outlet.
** A direct sequel to Watchmen called "Doomsday Clock" came and finally made Ozymandias pay for what he has done. After the news outlet ousted Veidt's plans, it started a chain of reaction that eventually led to his downfall as well as the supposed end of humanity. European Union dissolved, the USSR went back its old warmonger ways with their relation between the US degrading to lows below even the Cold War, nuclear weapons failed to be disarmed and one such missile was fired from Russia to New York City. Adrian is now the most wanted man in the world and has brain cancer (possibly ironically validating what he framed Dr. Manhattan for). Still, he managed to fight his way out of this chaos with other DC heroes (superman and the godamned batman mind you, characters with thick plot armor), the Comedian (brought back by Manhattan), pretty much everyone around the world but especially Dr. Manhattan (who masterminded this all from his glass palace on Mars). Also, keep in mind this sequel is not written by Alan Moore himself so it's at best considered an alternate continuity.

*Prometheus (the DC supervillain) certainly didn't ''start'' as this but ended up being twisted into one. When first introduced he was a genuinely cool and intimidating supervillain whose insane skill and manipulations were balanced out by his crippling mental issues (which the heroes exploited to take him down). Unfortunately, writers who weren't as skilled as Grant Morrison got their paws on him and made him ludicrously overpowered to the point where he single-handedly ''destroyed Star City, killing Roy Harper's daughter in the process''. Thus Prometheus went from an awesome member of Batman's rogue gallery to a complete waste of pages. Thankfully he was prevented from becoming any worse thanks to Green Arrow putting an arrow through the bastard's skull.

*Ramsay Bolton (show version): Oh good fucking God, where to start with this particular Villain Sue? Well, for one, he manages to take on twenty of the best Ironborn warriors, who were all heavily armed and armored, while not just unarmored but SHIRTLESS and armed with nothing but a kitchen knife and a mace, and SOMEHOW kicks their asses. Then, much later, he is shown to completely annihilate the battle-hardened Stormlander army led by Stannis Baratheon, the greatest military commander in Westeros, with nothing but cavalry, while the previous episodes had established that Ramsay is a tactically inept moron. (This can also tie in with the fact that the writers of the show seriously fucked over Stannis from "stern-but-honorable competent tactical genius" into "greedy, fanatical moron"). Finally, he is constantly shown to get his way no matter how stupidly contrived it seems to the viewer, arguably the worst case being marrying and deflowering Sansa Stark by raping her and getting the killing blow on fan-favorite giant Wun-Wun. His Sueness ends with his face getting caved in by Jon and fed to his own hounds by Sansa.

*Rey AKA Ma-Rey Sue from the [[Star Wars]]. From the release of the first movie, she already caught some backlash among the old guards of Star Wars who consider her a self-insert Mary Sue with a feminist agenda. Leaving aside the politics, the resulting trilogy and related events have only confirmed Rey’s Mary Sue-dom. Reasons from the first movie alone include Rey showing [[What|a better knowledge of the Millennium Falcon’s inner working than then Han Solo and Chewbacca]] who’d maintained the ship for decades where she had it for less than a week, being offered a job by Han shortly after meeting him despite him and Chewie being sufficient crew for the Falcon and Han being a cynic who barely knows her (like something right out "A Trekkie's Tale"), Rey suddenly being a [[Wat|powerful Force user who can resist a trained Force-user's mind probe]] despite no previous mention of her being Force sensitive and [[Bullshit|Rey performing said Jedi mind trick while in captivity almost immediately after learning she's Force Sensitive]] despite the fact that performing said trick is known to be difficult to master (to be fair, Rey had just been in telepathic contact with somebody who knew how to pull off a Mind Trick, and wasn't as good at telepathic interrogation as he thought he was). Rey’s only character flaw is recklessness, and while it does get her captured by the villains in the first and third films, this is offset by Rey getting rescued unharmed both times by luck/plot armour, which is a Sue-ish trait (at least Luke suffered actual setbacks and injuries – such as a severed hand and failing to save Han from Boba Fett). Furthering Rey’s status of Mary Sue is the “creators relationship to the character” part, with several of the filmmakers either pulling new explanations out of their asses to explain Rey’s abilities (or retconning them, such as the Force “cheat-coding” and the “Force Dyad”) or attacking anyone who didn’t like the character by tarring them with the same negative brushes ([[SJW|accusations of sexism got lots of usage]]). The third film threw in the big twist that Rey is ''really'' Rey '''Palpatine'''. You heard right, Rey is literally Emperor Palpatine's ''granddaughter'', almost as if they're trying to one-up Luke’s relation to Vader. The third film also ends with Rey taking the last name “Skywalker” while Luke and Leia’s force ghosts look on approvingly. For a more comprehensive coverage on why Rey is a Mary Sue, look up the results of the Mary Sue Litmus test on the discussion page.
** While it could be argued that Luke and Anakin are just as ridiculous, they fit easier the form of tropes they are. Luke, being the most classic [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheHero Hero] ever, is quickly established as good at most things he does, culminating in flying an X-Wing through the Death Star trench and making an one-in-a-million shot to destroy the Death Star, and this is less than a week before he was just a backwater farmboy. Though while Luke used the Force untrained like Rey did, his only feats were enhancing skills he already had and developed; a stretch, but more plausible than pulling new skills ''that require training to use'' out of nowhere. Anakin is the [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChosenOne Chosen One], and people who are chosen tend to be skilled and powerful regardless because the Powers-That-Be have their backs on top of any personal skills they have. Young Ani competes and wins a pod-race that only aliens can normally participate in due to the sheer insanity of it, and then blows up a Trade Federation Dreadnought with a fighter he'd never been in before (even then kid Anakin also had R2-D2's help). Again, no problem. Now Rey is about as much the Hero as Luke but is an Unchosen One compared to Anakin, and the wildest thing she does in her first movie is to use the Force untrained (much like Luke does in A New Hope) and gain the upper hand on a Sith apprentice. Why people doesn't expect her to be [[-4 Str|as powerful]] as [[Lawful Good|Luke]] and [[BBEG|Anakin]] is better left for another discussion entirely, though the fact that Rey is touted as a strong female character while being propped up by the failures of men and saved by men throughout the trilogy doesn't help her case.

*Richard, from the Sword of Truth series (he's not as bad in the TV series). He is always considered an ideal hero despite being cruel, sociopathic, and thinking that the universe should bend over backwards for him [[What|(which it actually does).]] Everyone who disagrees with him is evil (even if that's the only reason they're considered a villain) or turns evil. Gratuitous rape is thrown in by the author as a cheap way to make him look better (making villains as reprehensible as possible doesn't solve the problem of the protagonist being completely un-heroic).

*Richard B. Riddick, from the Riddick universe. Vin Diesel's personal self-insert inspired from his own D&D Rogue. Didn't start out as a Mary Sue though, going from a sensible power level ''(where a fist-fight with a morphine-addicted merc is reasonably fair)'' with dubious morality and a lovably snarky badass attitude. Later becoming ''(particularly amongst the directors cuts)'' a superpowered badass who can single-handedly take on squads of soldiers with a knife, resist soul sucking, commune with animals and make threats with [[Just as Planned]] modes of killing. ''("kill you with my teacup" / "dead in 5 seconds")'', oh... he can also explode as shown in the director's cuts and off-screen in the video games. His later portrayals also show his morality becoming a "told you so" mentality, where, when people die it's really because they are the assholes and nothing to do with Riddick.

*Roran, from the Inheritance Cycle. He started as a farmer-apprentice blacksmith, yet he managed to become an invincible warrior, charismatic presence, expert orator and master strategist without any training. We are talking of a young man who soloes 194 soldiers in a melee battle and wins without taking any major injuries. He then survived a public flogging severe enough to be an alternative to execution despite it being not long after that battle. He also beat an urgal in a wrestling match despite the Urgal being stronger, bigger, better trained and having horns. In the third book he even single-handedly defeated a Ra'zac; a race that are to humans what wolves are to sheep. Then in the final battle Roran bested the magically-enhanced warrior who killed the elf-queen, and did so without magic or special weapons of his own. Yes, Roran managed to achieve feats that even elves would consider impossible. While his cousin Eragon has the (weak) excuses of magical enhancement and helping from his dragon companion, Roran doesn't. He is a common man who, for plot reasons, creates a plot armor just by thinking about his girlfriend.

* Sarah Kerrigan from the Starcraft series has become this more and more as time passes. In the first game she's just a terran ghost (psionic assassin) who gets turned into a human-zerg hybrid and disappears from the plot after like two or three missions in the zerg campaign, but then she becomes one of the main villains of the expansion pack and everyone else in in the game becomes a thundering dumbass so she can look like a master manipulator despite being played for a sap by yet another character, and commits several atrocities to serve herself and her own agenda but is not punished them in any way despite multiple characters swearing revenge on her. Then the sequel ramped it up. Out of fucking nowhere she is designated the saviour of the galaxy from the new villain in town with virtually no justification offered except that Blizzard were too cowardly and attached to the the character to follow through on people wanting her dead. She gets purified of zerg corruption and another character who's more fun and interesting gets killed off so she can live. The zerg campaign centers on her and shows her doing yet more pointlessly-cruel and destructive things in the name of petty revenge, its only concessions to the ridiculousness of letting her live being some half-hearted acknowledgements of her past crimes. And after a pair of pointless guest appearances in the protoss campaign and its prologue campaign, she gets picked by the last good Xel'Naga in the universe to receive his essence and become a Xel'Naga herself so she can defeat the main villain in a laser beam-off. And after her boyfriend, a better-written character who spends all his time getting shit on throughout the series, is seen moping in a bar at the end of the final campaign, she gets to ass pullingly make him a Xel'Naga too, for some moron's idea of resolving their relationship with happily ever after ending.

*Sakamoto from 'Haven't You Heard? I'm Sakamoto' never fails at anything and always manages to look [[Awesome]] no matter what he is doing or how much the other characters try to sabotage him, and it is hilarious.

*Selene, from the 'Underworld' movies. Throughout the series, she bears several similarities to [[Alice]]; both are experts with weapons, both have superior biology to their respective species (humans for Alice, Vampires for Selene), both kill their way through swarms of enemies without getting a scratch, both have little regard for their source material, and both are played by the wives of the directors of their respective film series.

*Squirrel Girl from Marvel Comics is another one of these Sues who's actually popular and enjoyed for it, probably because she's played entirely for laughs: Doreen Grey is a [[Mutant]] teenage girl with Spider-Man levels of strength/speed/agility, can grow bone knuckles, can talk to squirrels (and have them do her bidding) and has the ability to defeat any villain she wants off-screen. This includes big-name villains like Doctor Doom (she beat him in his first appearance and several times afterwards, and this is a rare instance of a Doom-related incident that was ''not'' smoothed over with the "Just a Doombot" excuse), Ego the Living Planet (who is, like his name suggests, a planet, meaning that a teenage girl beat up a planet), Thanos (who is one of the biggest badasses of the Marvel Universe, but the writers saved his face by replacing him in this instance with a perfect copy of him), Deadpool (whom she calls the mean, mean man; he's actually scared of her), M.O.D.O.K. and tons of other people. She was once part of a C-list superhero team, but quit because she thought she was holding them back (which she was entirely correct about: she once apologized to them for being late because she had to beat a 100' space dragon) and left for Marvel's Nexus of the Multiverse: New York. Despite her unapologetic Mary Sue-ness the fans love her and see her as the one spot of light in the otherwise relentlessly [[grimdark]] Marvel Universe, because again, she's played entirely for laughs and there's nary a title in Marvel Comics that couldn't do with more laughs.

*[[Superman]] in the hands of a poor writer. He is morally perfect, one of the strongest beings in the DC universe, and his one weakness that's supposed to kill him never works <s>ex: he lifts an entire continent of Kryptonite after being stabbed by a dagger made of it</s> thankfully ''Superman Returns'' had so many plotholes that ''Man of Steel'' declared it all non-canon. The only reliable way to nerf him is to have Batman beside him, because Superman always becomes a dumbass when Batman is around (go watch DCAU Justice League to see for yourself). Good writers can avoid falling into this by having him go up against villains who can genuinely threaten him (such as General Zod, Maxima or Doomsday; in fact, the writers made Doomsday specifically to be a threat who can physically match Superman), showing that even with all his vast powers there are things Superman just can't do (in one tragic story it turned out that even though he can benchpress planets, he can't stop his parents from dying of cancer) or emphasizing that his strong morals are not intrinsic to him, but a product of a happy childhood, caring parents and a network of close friends, and he wouldn't necessarily have them if he were raised somewhere less pleasant (like, say, Planet Apokolips or the Soviet Union - both actually happened in Elseworlds stories, look it up) or if those close to him were taken away (like in the Injustice and Kingdom Come comic series).

*Tauriel, Peter Jackson's special snowflake from ''The Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug'' (a Mary Sue in something related to Tolkien; [[Tolkien|Beren and Luthien are deep and well-written enough to get a pass]], this is a sad day). Not content with undermining or retconning the book, Jackson creates a special snowflake elf OC. Tauriel's ridiculously skilled at fighting to the point she matches Legolas in archery - and he's pretty OP in the films (as shown when she shots an arrow at him when he surprises her, he returns fire and their arrows collide with each other) - she also has healing powers. According to all of Tolkien's books, only a select few elves can heal people such as Lord Elrond Half-Elven, wielder of one of the three Elven Rings of Power, some who's studied healing for millennia and is a direct descendant of the Kings of the Noldor; all things which Tauriel lacks. In addition, she's ship-teased with canon-characters Legolas (who never appears, or even gets mentioned, in the book - albeit he was shoehorned into the film to cash in on his popularity with fangirls) and Kili. To be fair, some of the ship tease between Kili and Tauriel is well handled as well, in particular when Kili teases her and then tells her stories when locked in prison.

*[[Star Trek|Wesley Crusher]]. Wesley FUCKING Crusher. Originating from the same franchise as the original Mary Sue, Wesley is a very young ensign training to be an officer in Starfleet, where he's earned the admiration of many of the bridge officers. He became something of a protege to Captain Picard, who was impressed by Wesley after he showed that he had learned all the controls at the captain's chair when they first met. <s>While not morally perfect or incorruptible Wesley is as close as he can be in most cases</s> He's only moral by Gene Roddenberry's standards ''(which were messed up beyond belief, the man thought it was okay to be a prima donna director but not for children to grieve over dead loved ones, and that's not getting into his corporate shyster practices, anti-religious prejudices and sexism; seriously we're not making any of that up)'', by a normal person's, he's smug and egocentric, along with his [[Deus Ex Machina]] techno skills, which are shown off by making the rest of the crew look useless. He notably also gets the Enterprise into danger before getting it out of it, and never gets called out for it. Many people thought that he was an insufferable little shit, among them Wil Wheaton (the actor who PLAYED the guy... and coming from him, that's saying something). Wesley is even named after Gene Roddenberry, as Wesley was Gene's middle name - or to give Gene's full name, Eugene ''Wesley'' Roddenberry.

*[[Loli|Young main characters]] in crappy [[Asians|Japanese]] [[anime|animes]] and [[manga]].

*Main characters from Japanese [[Isekai]] light novels. Usually they were nerds or losers who only interest in a particular underrated hobby/talent in their world, but became a fucking skyrim tier powerhouse once they enter the so-called mysterious otherworld. Upon entering, they became super powerful since their somewhat boring talent suddenly becomes a miracle to the other world residents thus making the main character successful. It is a trend that they will done the following to prove their superiority: wrecking Saturday cartoon villain tier antagonist (usually a reference to the main character's childhood bully) that made even [[Ahriman]] looks good, instantly gained many female party members because the main character was an unpopular virgin in their original world (and no males allowed, they are yucky), using their otaku knowledge to solve every problem that was deems unsolvable in the other world (more reason that their useless hobby/talent that was deemed useless has more use in the otherworld). The other world usually consist the cliches of JRPG world: [[Medieval Stasis]], fantasy creatures like dwarves and elves, old European like hierarchy and cultures, monsters, JRPG mechanic. One of many trend of isekai protagonist is that almost all of them have tragic background featuring how they were bullied in high school or parent suicide or some typical Japanese cliches of tragic (such as truck-kun). There are also many situations where authors would made the protagonist suffer by have him stuck in a misunderstood situation, setup by the unlikable villain as an attempt to make him look good. Then again, these kind of self fulfilling characters are authors self insert whom was a victim of a depressing citizens of their society, or they thought. There are a few exceptions to this such as Ainz Ooal Gown, Kazuma Satou or Kazuya Souma who are thrown into situations that requires far more intelligence, planning and Indy Polys than your typical light novel protagonist can muster. Some try to subvert this with mixed results. ''Re:Zero'' is a deconstructive take where its protagonist (Subaru Natsuki) dies painfully over and over and ''over'' again, and eventually confesses to everyone around him that he's completely useless. (Though then he starts learning from his mistakes and becomes more competent-- but '''not''' an uber-badass.)

*Judging from the rest of the list, [[Skub|any character you don't like.]]

===Works with more than too many of them===
*[[In Nomine]]'s Superiors may or may not qualify; if they do, they do so as a block, thus placing them here. The problem here is that each Superior is an NPC made to more or less '''be''' their entire organization (''most'' PCs report directly to at least one of them), and thus needs to be larger-than-life. Ultra high-powered NPCs plus Strong Personalities plus Needing to Show Up Frequently is a formula only in need of a small amount Bad Writing or Poor GMing to go into hardcore Suedom. On the "possibly further from Suedom" side, all the Superiors have exploitable character flaws, but the result is still an edifying example of why High Powered NPCs are a problem.

*Sonichu, made by [[Chris-Chan|you-know-who]]. To make a long article short, just about anyone who is friends with the author or from some franchise <s>s/he/it</s> they like gets to be overwhelmingly hax and unbound by the laws of morality, everyone who isn't is pretty much either nonexistent or very very evil (the latter guaranteed for any character representing someone the author has a personal beef with).

*Twilight
**[[Twilight|Bella Swan]]: Though she is a pretentious, manipulative, male-dependent, self-pitying downer who takes her parents for granted and makes no time for her friends, Bella is adored by all. Her first day of school is supposedly hard for her, despite the fact that every person she meets instantly presents her with a best friend badge, and/or falls in love with her. She's also clumsy EXCEPT when there's a moment where she'll die if she does something clumsy. Add being a painfully obvious author surrogate and even being the product of one of the author's dreams (S Meyer admitted that herself), "clumsy" Bella is the Mary Sue of her generation.
**[[Twilight|Edward Cullen]]: This character is the reason the popularity of vampires took a massive hit when the book came out. Possibly the most rage-inspiring aspect is he introduced the idea that vampires [[FAIL|SPARKLE HARMLESSLY LIKE DIAMONDS IN SUNLIGHT]]! He can read minds, is near impossible to kill, doesn't have the vampire weakness to holy objects despite seeing himself as an abomination against God, doesn't feed off humans despite his literal bloodlust except for criminals or "those who deserve to die", always fashionable and multi-talented. Despite being a textbook case of an emotionally abusive and controlling boyfriend to Bella, he's always treated as having the moral high ground... except when he refuses to make Bella a vampire, but that gets swept under the rug as soon as he changes his mind.
**[[Twilight|Jacob Black]]: A werewolf from the Twilight franchise. He commits date rape on Bella (forcing a kiss), trolls the vampires and switches sides between the werewolves and the vampires without consequence. The worst part is when he [[FATAL|falls in love with Bella's and Edward's newborn daughter because of a vision, practicing wife husbandry on her as soon as she can walk and talk... and all the other characters are fine with this]]. The story also gushes about his looks to the point that the movie doesn't go five minutes without the character taking off his shirt and the camera focusing on his muscles.

*Warhammer unfortunately has several examples, many of them a result of Matt Ward's bad writing. They get much better in the hands of more skilled writers, or in [[If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device|parodies]].
**[[Cato Sicarius]]. Seriously this guy is Mary Sue's Mary Sue. He was born to a noble house on Talassar, trained with a sword as soon as he could hold one, inducted into the Ultramarines. He got commendation after commendation going from sergeant to company champion to Captain of the 2nd Company in several decades. He refined lightning assaults to near perfection and knows what to do after giving the battlefields a quick glance. He leads a company of mini Sues, each squad having some title for some great feat; their devastators having destroyed a titan, and a tactical squad that hasn't taken a casualty in close to 100 years. He is not only captain of the 2nd but "Master of the Watch", "Knight Champion of Macragge", "Grand Duke of Talassar", and "High Suzerain of Ultramar", seriously those last two titles are [[pretend|completely made up]]. He's a complete dick, valuing glory for himself and his company over all else, admitting to his men that he didn't care about planet Damnos when they were battling the Necrons over it (where he got his ass handed to him by a no-name Necron Lord). He also decided to appoint himself judge, jury, and executioner, to judge Uriel Ventris when he broke from the Codex, even though they're the same rank and only the Chapter Master has the right to do stuff like that. Oh yeah that reminds me, to top it all off most of the chapter thinks he's next in line to be Chapter Master, instead of Captain Agemman of the first company, even though he's got much (see fuck-tons) more experience than Sicarius. Add all that to the Mary Sue-ness of being a Space Marine and being in the Ultramarines and it reaches critical levels.
**[[Eldrad|Eldrad Ulthran]], and what's worse: he knows he is, and is a complete dick about it. Though he was recently imprisoned by his Craftworld for trying to help the Imperium and messing up Ynnead's ascension. He then joins the Ynnari after being shunned by his Craftworld.
**[[Kaldor Draigo]]. Wrote his mentor's name into Mortarion's heart without contracting Spess Aids, or being fucking destroyed by said primarch which, of those 19 (21?) can roll through a squad of Custodes without too much effort, got schllupped into the Warp and somehow remains pure.
**[[Marneus Calgar]], especially post-Ward. Killing an Avatar of Khaine by punching its chest in and not getting seriously hurt in said fight with one. An Avatar of Khaine is supposed to be as hard to kill as a Bloodthirster, something that takes a Primarch or a Bio-titan to beat in a one-on-one fight (then again, Games Workshop loves [[Worf|worfing]] Avatars, and Space Marines are their Creator's Pet). Calgar had his limbs chopped off by the Swarmlord, which didn't kill him due to Plot Armor, and he leads the Ultramarines, themselves considered a Mary Sue chapter in a Mary Sue faction (see the Space Marine entry on this page). These are just the first few examples.
**[[Captain Matthias Ward]], I am the better Mary-Sue.
**The [[Primarch]]s <s>and their [[Warhammer High|daughters]].</s>{{BLAM|'''THOSE WORDS ARE BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!! /tg/ can only create perfection!'''}} (To be fair, the daughters are only Sues in that they inherited their Sue traits from their fathers.)
**[[Uriel Ventris]] - despite initially coming off as a subversion of Wardian Ultramarines-are-the-best Mary Sue bullshit, he quickly devolves into [[Skub|Ultramarines are the worst unless they use the Codex to wipe their asses and act like Space Wolves]] - which is pretty much limited to - guess who? - McNeill's OC-Do-Not-Steal Special Snowflake Ventris.
** [[Iskandar Khayon]] a pretty awesome villain, but some of the stuff he does is just unbelievable, though some of that may be because his book is actually him telling the events to his enemies while captured so he may be lying about a lot of it.

*World of Warcraft:
**Kalecgos (AKA Kalec), blue dragon who can disguise himself as a human-elf hybrid; from [[World of Warcraft|World of Warcrabs]]. Ham-fistedly inserted into the Blood Elves' redemption story arc as an enabler. Later he takes over the blue dragonflight even though he's not the oldest, wisest or most powerful blue dragon, but simply because he was the only surviving named blue dragon with anything approaching a personality. Later he hooks up with Jaina Proudmoore, a powerful human mage/noblewoman/faction leader introduced in Warcraft III. She does this in spite of their vast age difference (which made her reject an Elven prince who loved her) and bad track record with lovers. Though Kalecgos later disbanded them as an organization, he's still the go-to blue dragon (despite older, more powerful ones like Azuregos and Senegos still being in the lore).
**Jarod Shadowsong, a Night Elf commander shoehorned into the setting in books "War of the Ancients" and "Wolfheart", by Richard Knaak. Brother to canon character Maiev Shadowsong, love interest to Shandris Feathermoon, - Tyrande's adopted daughter with both characters canon since WC3 (Shandris in case you don't recognize her, is that one Elf archer with a unique model present in the first two and last Night Elf missions in ''Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos'') - and the Night Elves greatest war hero after Furion and Tyrande themselves. His mere presence raises morale so much that people, to quote the book, "automatically fight harder and obey him with greater swiftness". He survived a one-on-one fight against Archimonde, a demon lord who can destroy cities single-handedly, because he suddenly decided to toy with Jarod even though time was of the essence. Said war saw various Night Elf DEMIGODS place themselves under Jarod's command! He also lacks any personality beyond humble hero and has no character flaws that effect him negatively. He spends thousands of years after the first fight against the Burning Legion resting on his laurels and doesn't show up when they invade the second time, but no-one calls Jarod out on this in-universe. On top of this, Shandris' love for him is poorly written and makes no sense. The last time Shandris saw Jarod, he was married to someone else and Shandris knew it, and Shandris had no contact with Jarod for ''thousands of years'' until they met again during the Cataclysm. And when they met, Shandris propositioned Jarod '''at his wife's funeral'''. This bears repeating; Shandris pursued someone who she hadn't spoken to for millennia and who was married to someone else by trying to hook up him before his wife's body was even cold (and Shandris is not that kind of ignorant/thoughtless/crazy/predatory person).
**Krasus (AKA Korialstraz) a high-ranking red dragon, mainly due to the author's overuse of him, and said author is also Richard Knaak. He disguises himself as an elf, and said elf is one of the leaders of the Kirin Tor. On top of this, he's Consort/Adviser of the Dragon Queen, he might as well be the Dragon King considering how much importance Alexstraza puts on him and how few decisions she makes until after he's gone. He also gets sent back in time to partake of a historical event despite the fact HIS YOUNGER SELF WAS AROUND IN THAT TIME. He also set up another Mary Sue in Warcraft, Rhonin (NOTE; both characters were created by the same author). To be fair, Krasus is tame compared to most WoW examples listed here.
**Rhonin, human archmage of the Kirin Tor. By Richard Knaak again, Blizzard Entertainment's equivalent of [[Robin Cruddace|Robin Cruddace]]. Knaak made up a new member of the famous Windrunner family just for Rhonin to hook up with. They have half-elf kids who are blessed by dragons despite the fact they've done nothing to earn it (the player characters have done more, but they don't get anything like that; just a few trinkets that will be rendered obsolete by the next expansion), not to mention that those half-elf kids are one of the very rare examples of human-elf hybrids in WoW (the other is Arator the Redeemer, son of legendary characters all the way back in Warcraft 2 - human paladin Turalyon and elven general Alleria). Even the name Rhonin is just the title "Rōnin" (referring to a Samurai with no master during Japan's feudal period) with a few changes to anglicize the name (and, of course, the character doesn't even look Japanese). He gets sent back in time to partake in the first fight against the Burning Legion for no other reason than Knaak wanted Rhonin to be there. He does practically nothing in the game, yet everyone says he's a great hero; even then, he didn't do half the things they praise him for.
**Sylvanas Windrunner from [[World of Warcraft]] (The trend is now a bullet train into Edgytown): Started out as a Fantasy counterpart for Sarah Kerrigan, she's been turning into Fantasy Hitler/Mengele (or rather, was from the beginning). Originally a High Elf ranger in Warcraft III who is killed and turned into a Banshee by Arthas. She sets up the Undercity as a fortress/Horde-run concentration camp for Alliance captives, and has free reign of atrocities ranging from slavery to genocide. Her Royal Apothecary kidnapped innocents to experiment upon under her watch, torturing them for fun and science. Now that doing bad things upsetting some players does definitely not qualify for Mary Sue'dom, but the problem becomes obvious as the plot advances. She was already under suspicion before the Wrathgate Incident (she knew about the plague, but not that it would be used on the Horde too), invaded Gilneas, nuked Southshore, waged a torture-filled genocidal campaign on the Humans, manipulated the Horde (to join them in the first place in order to use them as tools), built a Cult of Personality around herself, employed the Val'kyr (which seems to be a case of "Even Chaos has standards" when seen by pragmatic Death Knight Thassarian), resurrected those who she killed against their will despite not liking when it happened to her, shot and killed Liam Greymane then taunted his father Genn about it, attempted to steal the Scythe of Elune to enslave the Worgen to expand her personal army and made some kind of deal with the devil to get the Val'kyr in the first place. The closest she got to any kind of punishment was Lor'thermar threatening to kill her if she raised the Horde's dead as Forsaken, stating he'd leave her to the Alliance if she tried it on their dead and calling her out on several of her actions in Mists of Pandaria - rather weaksauce given the almighty kicking they were giving Garrosh throughout that expansion pack, making him out to be evil incarnate. In Legion, after retreating from the Broken Shore, the crowning moment of Mary Suedom occurs when she ends up being named the next Warchief of the Horde with Vol'jin's dying words, followed by her abandoning the fight against a world-destroying demon army so she can find a way to cheat death, and everyone in the Horde is okay with this. In the next expansion, the Horde forced the Night Elves out of Kalimdor in the War of Thorns, with Sylvanas pulling an Arthas by forcing the dying commander to watch her burn Teldrassil, an action worse than Garrosh's Bombing of Theramore because Theramore was a military target while the Night Elves had surrendered and Teldrassil was inhabited only by non-combatants. Then the writers give her plot armor by having "never forsake honor" Saurfang save her life by dealing a dishonorable blow to her opponent, as Sylvanas' atrocities grow barely anyone from the Horde turns against her, and pulling new powers out of their asses for her. Then she pulls an admittedly cunning trap and Blight-bombs Lorderaen when the Alliance take it from the Forsaken in retaliation (only turning the tide thanks to Jaina). After this she gets more unexplained new powers that allow her to one-shot Saurfang and solo Lich King Bolvar and a horde of undead in the lead-up to the new expac. The Mary Sue reason on top of all this? She never suffers any ''(literally, ANY)'' setback except Greymane ruining her Val'kyr agenda. All her atrocities and horrors are ignored or turned into heroism, and what's worse, she automatically pulls out the next phase of her agenda out of her ass like some Pentagon's high command after snorting a line of coke each. Her Forsaken, despite horrendous losses and ban on raising unwilling dead, somehow destroys each and everything with a shred of goodness around her...only for her to get raised to Warchief status like some spoiled prepubescent princess. This issue is compounded by the fact that Sylvanas has a very vocal fanbase and she's the Creator's Pet of at least two of Warcraft's dev team, lead quest writer David Kosak and Creative Director Alex Afrasiabi (the latter who insists [[Skub|she's not evil and that there's still a lot more to her story]]). Even then, David and Alex were proven wrong as the end of Battle for Azeroth and the upcoming Shadowlands expansion confirm/FINALLY ADMIT that Sylvanas is a villain and she's going to be taken down.
**Thrall, the (in)famous Orc Warchief from ''[[Warcraft]]''. Started out cool in WC3 as an Orc orphan raised in a human internment camp who escaped with help from a friend, he led the Orcs because he was the former Warchief's son and a powerful but not story-breaking shaman. By having his forces fight alongside the trolls and Tauren and save them from their enemies he made allies. Though he fucked up by sending Grommash to collect resources from Ashenvale (antagonizing the Night Elves, giving the demons an opportunity to corrupt the Orcs and leading to the death of a demigod who would've been a great help against the Burning Legion), with a lot of help from some allies and another demi-god he sets things right and they kick the Burning Legion's demonic asses off of Azeroth. He still holds the line against threats and tries to make peace, but he's a bit too forgiving of trouble-makers in the Horde (see Sylvanas above and Garrosh below). In the Cataclysm expansion for World of Warcramps, he became Azeroth's premiere shaman and leader of half the world while appointing the <s>[[Skub|VERY CONTROVERSIAL]]</s> <s>balls to the wall violent and universally hated</s> patriotic warmonger Garrosh Hellscream as Warchief of the Horde; despite the protests of several others ''including Garrosh himself'' (who was uncertain he could handle the responsibility of such a role at the time). Takes over as Aspect of Earth from a borderline demigod, and even deals a crippling blow to him when he's empowered by the Old Gods. Even people that were fans of Thrall during Warcraft III have started to get sick of him.
*** The writers appear to have realized what kind of monster they unleashed in Cataclysm and every expansion since has given him a kicking in some way. In Mists of Pandaria Garrosh kicks his ass just before his final fight with the players. In Warlords of Draenor he gets relegated to the sidelines and has [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHwiEbXqh3k another fight with Garrosh], which features a memetastic sequence in which Garrosh pummels his dumb ass while listing his failures. He wins the fight only by cheating and using his shaman powers, and Legion (the expansion) reveals the Elemental Spirits have nerfed him for his blatant haxxing. Even when he begins getting his powers back, you only see that happen if you're a shaman, and he ends up becoming your bitch. Even his big fancy Doomhammer gets misplaced so it can become an Artifact weapon for Enhancement shamans.

==Mary Sue Races==
While not every member of a race is a Mary Sue, [[Chakat|with one or two exceptions]], sometimes whole races are considered Mary Sues because they have huge amounts of plot armor and are idealized beyond reason. They were put here as the Mary Sue list was originally conceived for characters. Also, please list them in alphabetical order.

* Although some might find this as [[Skub|arguable,]] the characteristics describing the Asari race in [[Bioware|Mass Effect]] are blatantly Mary-Sue. Although not every Asari is a Mary Sue (though some are), when it comes to the general race as a whole, oh boy does their 'Sueness' reach Chakat levels. Examples on what makes them a Mary Sue includes having the second longest lifespan behind the Krogan (over 1000 years, plus they lack the Krogans violent nature which can easily waste their long lifespans), all of them are biotic users, every one in the game is intelligent, founders of the council, considered sexy by many other species despite being a monogendered species (even Salarians, who lack a sex drive and mate by necessity), and are deliberately oversexualised by the developers so they can be [[Rule 34|Rule 34'ed to death]]. Their race as a whole is portrayed as peace loving hippies, the best diplomats, the most respected species in the galaxy as well as having a serious case of "Holier/Morally Superior then thou" attitude. Their ship the "Destiny Ascension" is the largest and most powerful ship in the Citadel fleet and their ships perversely resemble a lady privates because you know they all look like "wominz". Thessia, their homeworld, is regarded as the "jewel" of the galaxy (instead of the fucking Citadel) as well as having the largest amount of Eezo which partially explains how their entire race is biotics. Any asari can 'Read' most people's minds and inner-thoughts with near complete-accuracy, though only if that person agrees to it (they can literally mindfuck you). Furthermore with their way of reproduction, since they are monogendered (Meaning their all female) a lot of newcomers in Mass Effect start to scratch their heads on how they manage to get each other pregnant without any physical evidence of having a dick (Although one of the hypothesis is that they might actually screw around with the local fauna AKA Bestiality). However the fluff states this as Parthenogenesis, for those that don't know what it is, think of them as chickens....which is actually hilarious if you seriously put the comparison in context. Another odd thing about their reproduction is that somehow the Asari have the capability of getting pregnant from just about '''''Anyone'''''. [[Chakat|Do those traits sound fucking familiar to you?]] So all in all, not only are they a holy (unholy?) fusion of a smurf, elf and a monster girl, but they also commit in sweaty Lesbian/Bestiality/Xenoality orgies with almost everyone, turning the Asari race into nothing more then a giant Whorehouse for Aliens and Humans to fap in a hundred dozen ways and yet they are still ''okay'' with that....<s>Slaneesh approve of this!</s> {{BLAM|'''''BLAM! BLAM! DOUBLE HERESY!'''''}} But to be fair, at least Asari aren't [[Avatar|furries]] or physical [[Chakat|hermaphrodites]].
** Amusingly enough, the third game reveals that the only reason Asari are so much more advanced than the other races is because the Protheans (the super-advanced precursor race) were deliberately manipulating them and sneaking tech to them in their ancient history in order to give them a boost (such as genetically engineering them to be a race of skilled biotics and [[STC|leaving instruction manuals on how to create all sorts of advanced technology and deal with the other races in their "beacons"]]). The hope was that if they were given enough a headstart, the Asari would be able to unite and lead the other races to victory against the Reapers (in other words, they were deliberately ''trying'' to make the Asari Mary Sues in order to give the next cycle an advantage over the Reapers). Instead the Asari kept that knowledge to themselves and used it to become the most powerful race in the galaxy. When the Reapers showed up, the Asari buried their heads in the sand like the smurf elf pussies they are on their homeworld, leaving the other races to fend for themselves, than promptly got their asses kicked by the Reapers (Which they probably deserved it for being such [[Eldar|self-righteous and selfish cockbags]]). Perhaps one of the few instances of a Mary Sue being both invoked and subverted.

*[[Angry Marines]]. When was the last time YOU heard of an Angry Marine LOSING? Thought no-{{BLAM}}
{{BLAM|+The current author has been executed by the Inquisition to prevent the total destruction of the Imperium of Man by Angry Marines. Thank you and have a nice day.+}}

* The Draka, once human, then Posthuman slaver empire from the Domination Series by S.M Stirling, collapsing the "Bullying, slaving, torture-happy, heartless Karma Houdini asshole who is the channelized catharsis of the author rather than genuine art." shtick into a black hole the size of the galaxy. South African British colony turns into a nation of literal "[[Drow]] in human skin" when due to (mis)fortune, every losing side from wars against tyranny gets exiled to Drakia, the British colony named after Francis Drake. Turning chattel slavery into a race-wide, airtight regulated franchise in the case of blacks, they exploit entire Africa by taking the colonies belonging to the enemies of British people. Unifying in a Spartan way of life, completely shedding any morality in the case of slave control, eventually Draka Dominion declares independence from the British Crown, and turns entire Africa into a mega plantation with industrial giants enticed by obscene handouts exploited from Africa. The Draka then adopt Nietzschean ideals, and declare every non-Draka a slave, or a potential slave. Somehow the First World War results in Ottoman Empire being overran by them, and eventually the Draka start turning white people into slaves starting from Italy with approval of Hitler and employ black slave soldiers who are given ample living standards and items with free rape of anyone that is captured.
** This (Post-World War 2) is where the story turns from an [[Edgy]] /pol/-fanfic to pants-on-head retarded FAPfic. Though the series display a very detailed alternate history AND technological evolution (steamer cars phased out far later than combustion engine driven ones), the Draka's endless S&M laden plantation slave bitch fantasy hits overdrive and they simultaneously conquer Russia, Europe minus , and entire CHINA with black soldiers and their white masters that were, mind you, from an Africa that wasn't overpopulated but ecologically protected. They do not lose one, ONE battle while rampaging and raping and enslaving. Their methods are extremely savage: impalement and rape are regular actions at every resistance, and the black soldiers can take out any psychosis forming from mass atrocities on other slaves back home, every capture tortured until completely broken before being enslaved. Their research facilities have *zero* ethics, using up millions of humans in torturous experiments to develop fantastic drugs, bioweapons and medications since, well, their citizens are drilled from age 2 to 18 with a Nietzsche-on-crack ideology to circumvent a sudden case of conscience to heart. Eventually they change the Draka Citizen DNA to that of an immortal superhuman species, destroy the rest of non-Draka armies with [[/pol/|weaponized AIDS]] and make all slaves into docile abhumans and take over the rest of the world, rape all the women and men, destroy every monument and cultural heritage not belonging to them, turn the USA into a hunting reserve to hunt humans like animals (and eat them sometimes). Then the Draka expand into alternate universes, infiltrating our world and its parallel versions and start taking them over as well and enjoying immortal, eternal exploitation of everyone everywhere forever. What the entire US and UK plus the rest of Asia, Japan, Southeast Asia does is to create an Alliance that walks on eggshells and fucks up every espionage action against the Draka, loses every battle and ends up escaping to Alpha Centauri. S.M Stirling eventually writes a sequel where an alternate Earth has the [[Humanity's_Last_Stand|human Alliance win for a a change]], but the damage is already done. We are graced with the endless plantation BDSM fetish fantasy of bisexual, blonde, white, transhuman, constantly horny blue-eyed men and women fucking their farm slaves of either gender and make them work their asses off after breaking them in of every little inch of their personalities. A particularly nasty lesbian Draka is Stirling's Creator Pet: she manages to capture the sister of an American soldier who killed her lover and makes her a slave. She tortures her with a mental chip for years to destroy her brain, forcing her to bear her lover's clone children, and rapes her mentally, and eventually, physically. And her side wins the war, the girl escapes an old ruined wreck into space(albeit back to her brother), and our bitch spends her long, long life to torture and kill surviving Alliance holdouts for fun, happily raping, killing and torturing ever after. Seriously, even Kosak had more of a shred of decency, Stirling.

* The [[Drow]] from [[Drowtales]]. Their Mary Sue factor isn't even funny. Shaped by several inputs from several authors, their Drow are the best example of how too many cooks ruin a soup as well as the main author's high school misantrophy hitting overdrive. The Drowtales' Drow are practically immortal, have regenerating limbs, never menstruate, possess metals that are impenetrable to other sentient beings and virtually twice as big and a thousand times as powerful as other races to the point of a few drow kids on an adventure can butcher a city with innocents to save their friend who was about to be killed for its blood, since humans, hunted and enslaved, are desperate to the point of killing elves for their blood just to have an edge. Their houses in underworld have all the modern technology complete with giant walkers and submarines, modern machinery, PARTICLE RIFLES and magitech street lights, but somehow they need human and other races as slaves and this need is shown as just and necessary right at the beginning with the "good" faction's "surface raiders" murdering an entire village and taking women and children to slave markets because the poor widdle drow need slaves and "It's just their unique morality". And the way the webcomic shows them as tragic beings is the cherry on top: I didn't know it was so tragic and sad when the humans counterattack to save their raided relatives from your homes, locked in to be sold as slaves.

* ALL [[Chakat|Chakats!]] The entire fucking race are distilled and purified Mary Sues, sometimes warping stories they are even mentioned in passing. Not just [[monstergirls|feline-centaur]] [[/d/|dick-girls]](Sick Fucks), they're also each master psionicists with faster-than-light mind-reading, able to cure deep neurotic complexes with a good deep dickin', strongest and most stable form of 'Taurs', considered as the most "beautiful thing in the universe" despite looking exactly like lions with the fact that they have dicks, morally perfect to the extreme, nobody technically hates them, their breast milk can turn the most feeble human into mini-Arnold Schwarzeneggers and every non-Chakats seem to have a unnatural and unhealthy lifestyle on trying to "Do it" with them. Despite the fact that there are hundreds of ''other'' Catgirls outside of this furfag heresy, that are more attractive, cuter and prettier then them with the added benefit that they are actually female, [[HERESY|not hermaphrodite abominations]].

* [[Elf|Elves]] are often portrayed this way in fiction(Look above at Drowtales), though there are exceptions and it's becoming rarer for elves to be portrayed as Mary Sues. A lot of their sueness comes from how idealized they are. They're always beautiful, sometimes even without making an effort, either immortal or have very long lifespans and can only die from violence. They're often considered to have the moral high ground yet also be condescending to the younger races, but the elves contempt kept getting justified in some stories. Some have the natural ability to make anything beautiful from even the most base materials, naturally have great magical ability, and are often favored by their gods. However, there are evil elves in fiction and some elves who are morally good without being Mary Sues. Then there are curvy anime rapebait elves (often dark elves) who get high on male smells and secretions and turn into thicc fuckdolls taking massive amounts of dicking.

*[[Doctor Who|Whoverse Humanity]] takes this up to a 100 million in this case. Depending on the timeline, Humanity not only manage to become the dominant ruler of the multi-galaxy not once, but [[What|'''Five Fucking Times!''']] Without any indication on how they manage to conquer the Galaxy, thriving with hostile Aliens that could LOLStomp the Necrons, Eldar, Orks, Tau, Tyranid, Chaos in all it's forms and the Imperium ''combined''. Furthermore not only are they one of the [[Imperium of Man|most numerous species in the Universe,]] but also one of the most adaptable and longest lasting race, as seen when they are one of the [[Grimdark|few species still alive near the end of the fucking Universe.]] To give you an idea on how fucking ludicrous Humanity got within Doctor Who, in just 500 years from present day, Humanity was already a major force in the Galaxy ([[Star Trek|Compare this to most Sci-Fi timelines]] [[Bioware|where Humanity either just started to explore their surroundings]] [[Halo|or already establish a small and insignificant area]]), as well as having weapons that could make [[Strike Legion]] seem useless in comparison, and when you take note on how short the timeline distance is between the present day and the end of the Universe, it just makes you say to yourself....the Fuck? Compare this to say [[Star Wars]] in which they have the excuse of not knowing how long Humanity has been space traveling, or [[WH40K]] where the thousands of years gap of slow progress before the Warp Drive was invented seem much more plausible then this absurd scenario. You know Humanity is a Mary Sue when even the near-death of the Universe can't kill them off....until a certain Dues Ex Machina appeared. To be fair, they only gain their Sueness momentum when a certain Time Lord keep on foiling the plans of countless Aliens attempting to conquer and crush humanity in various stages in time; either that or because the Doctor has a unusually unhealthy Humanophile fetish. They are probably one of the few examples of a "Accidental Mary Sue", in which the Doctor, with his fancy Time gizmos and intellect, unintentionally guided Humanity to such power levels by either saving their asses from certain doom or altering the timeline so they won't fuck up, due to his love of Humans. Granted Whoverse Humanity is definitely far from morally perfect (A substantial amount of Whoverse villains are Humans and the multiple Human Empires itself are morally questionable at best. The Timelords themselves are hardly better than the Daleks at times.), the main point of contention is how influentially powerful they are for such a young race while at the same time, disregarding other more ancient and more powerful races (Silurian, Cybermen, Sontarian, Ice Warriors, etc) that should be the one having more galactic screen time and hegemony then them.
**Whoverse humanity Mary Sueness can't really be blamed on any one author. It's basically what happens when the newer writers don't want to change or retcon forty year old fluff.

* Dwarves as seen in the Artemis Fowl series. While virtually all dwarven exploits described are performed by one Mulch Diggums, most of his Mary Sueness is excused as "dwarven racial talents." His spit can harden into a glowing substance that's strong enough to resist high speed impacts, he can fart hurricanes and shit cannonballs, he can dig a self sealing tunnel through any earth-like substance as fast as a man can run, drink water with his pores, use said pores like suction cups if he's thirsty, hear better than a stethoscope, and has tremorsense to at least a hundred feet. Dwarves are also described as having access to the fairy magic (Common uses include instant healing, invisibility, and mid-grade mind control), but Mulch gave that up to steal things instead. This despite no readily apparent level adjustment, nor any mention of useful powers before those same powers are necessary, puts this race quite firmly in this category.

* LeShay are a race that appeared as a monster in the D&D 3th edition book [[Epic Level Handbook]] and have been completely forgotten about since then like most of what was in that book. They are described as being to elves what elves are to humans only more so. That sentence alone should immediately set off red flags. LeShay are extremely powerful immortals resembling albino elves who are survivors from a civilization that was erased from history. Whoever it was that came up with this race probably did not intend for them to be Mary Sues and the concept of them actually isn't that bad, but they probably would have ended up as Mary Sues if any bad writers had gotten a hold of them.

* The Mandalorians in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, depending whose writing them. While good under the correct writers, under some of the bad ones (Hint, it involves Karen fucking Traviss), they compete with badly written expanded universe Jedi and Sith for the position of Star Wars' Ultrasmurfs. In the expanded universe ALL mandos are elite warrior mercenaries, skilled enough to take out armed enemies with their bare hands and usually packing enough fire power to level a building. They're so badass in fact that they're known to hunt Jedi for fucking sport because they're the only thing that'll give'm a real challenge. Experienced jedi hunters can be good enough to fight them head on despite all their force powers and saber swinging because they have the right gear and experience to counter it. Bear in mind that Mandos do not use the force in anyway. Karen Traviss also writes them with the Mary Sue trait of always being right and people agreeing with them for things they call the Jedi out for that they didn't even do, like create the clone army, and makes them out to be the pinnacle of civilization despite being warmongers with a history of allying with the Sith and trying to conquer the galaxy themselves.
** The most famous Mandalorian, Boba Fett, generally avoids becoming this trope and is just a plain badass (as a bonus he rarely if ever engages in the dick-stroking egomania of Traviss's Mandies), but under bad writers his badassitude can push into this. His father Jango Fett follows this same idea; in fact his origin story partly involves his old merc group of Mandalorians getting slaughtered by a group of Jedi in a moment that reads sort of like "fuck you Karen Traviss". Sure, Jango kills six Jedi with his bare hands in that massacare, but the Jedi he killed were not decades old masters and he is (as an individual) supposed to be that good. The fact that he managed that made Palpatine choose him as the Clone Army template donor.

* [[Avatar|All Na'vi]], the blue-skinned eco-humping gobshites.

* Smurfs. They're portrayed as a peace-loving, quasi-communist society who always come out on top in their primary conflict with an evil wizard family and are idealized to the point of ridiculousness. They're also friends with animals and never have to worry about being eaten even though they're the size of large mice. [[Skub|Then ''again'']], most of the other conflicts they encounter are usually due to one or more of their clan fucking something up in accordance with their [[Derp|singular personality trait]], and overall they seem collectively naive about things to the point of gullibility. Said approach is likely designed to promote the usual aesop of teamwork and the importance of family, so it could be far worse.

* [[Twilight|Vampires in a certain book series]]. Even though they were as gay as fuck (which damaged the reputation of actual vampires).
** [[Vampire]]s in general started in falling in modern years due to their weaknesses being forgotten. They were often portrayed by writers as hard to kill monster that is able to use magic, good at many martial arts, good swordsman, master scholar, good charismatic looking in appearance, living in big castles while commanding other monsters like they were their servants or slaves, making them the Elves of the monster world by that definition. Initially in novels like Bram Stoker's Dracula, Vampires had notable weaknesses including regularly drinking the blood of many human victims to stay young and powerful, but later writers dropped this in favor of making Vampires straight up immortal. Seriously, some writers even give them plot armor to get past their weaknesses of holy objects, divine power or sunlight (though the former usually depends on the author's attitude towards religion).
** [[Tremere|Clan Tremere]] (a.k.a. "Tremary Sues") from the ''[[Vampire: The Masquerade]]'' [[RPG|ttRPG game]] are an entire clan of Mary Sues as they were [[Mark Rein·Hagen|the author]]'s pet mages from his previous ''[[Ars Magica]]'' game. Tremary Sues enjoy the narrative absurdity of holding a near-monopoly on vampiric thaumaturgy, despite the fact that older vampiric clans had millennia to perfect thaumaturgy before the first Tremere was ever born.
** Probably one of the best exceptions of this is Count Orlock from the classic silent film ''Nosferatu''. Whereas nowadays vampires get the treatment of being oh-so-sexy, suave, charismatic, pitiable creatures whose lives suck despite being immortal, undead bloodsuckers, Orlok is just a hideous predatory monster out to drink blood and feed. No charisma, no suave, nothing to pity, nothing to feel empathy for. In short, straight-ahead horror vampires done completely right.
** By contrast, the vampires of the House of Night series by mother and daughter team P. C. and Kristen Cast are far worse examples than even Twilight's bastardization. To clarify, vampires worship the goddess Nyx who is the only real goddess, are selected by a tracker when they are a human teen, are the poor, oppressed minorities of the world even though literally almost every famous person in human history was a vampire, will become utterly handsome and beautiful unless they reject the Change in which case they are afforded no sympathy as they die due to events outside their control, every negative stereotype is because of stupid humans, they can never due anything bad...in short, vampires done so badly that Twilight is more believable as good vampire literature. Seriously.

== Mary Suetopias ==

As mentioned in the main article, there are some cases of entire civilizations getting the "Mary Sue" label with some justice. Here are a few.

* The Draka, before they become a species, are usually held to be a fairly strong example of a Villian Suetopia. See above in Mary Sue Races for more.
* Anarchist habitats in [[Eclipse Phase]]. To quote TVTropes, they "are apparently flawless societies where robots and nanofabricators provide for everyone, crime is virtually non-existent due to surveillance sensors everywhere and well-armed populaces, and there's no shortage of spare bodies like there is in the Transitional Economies."
* Aldis, from [[Blue Rose]], has this accusation thrown at it, with some justification.
* The various civilizations of Ayn Rand's science fiction are either Mary Suetopias or Villain Suetopias. No inbetween.

* [[Ultramar]]. Need more be said?


There are some "special cases" (parodies, twists, and deconstructions), that are worth mentioning:

* Ursula K. LeGuin's "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" is... odd. Go read it if you want more, because it's ''very'' short. 
* Rapture and Columbia from the Bioshock series are "functionalist" Suetopias: Because the games are about killing lots and lots of dudes, you need to have those dudes be crazy or assholes or both. Rapture could actually be interpreted as a criticism of Ayn Rand's Suetopias by showing how they will go wrong in a less ideal world.
* The original "Utopia" by Thomas More is interesting, in that it somewhat parodies the concept before it existed. To provide two examples, "Utopia" is a pun on ''eutopia''-"good place", and ''outopia''-"no place", and the frame story narrator's name translates as "Peddler of Nonsense". Yes, this means that the man who literally coined the term Utopia immediately considered it wishful fantasy.
* Mordent, from [[Ravenloft]], has a somewhat interesting twist. Its Darklord focuses more on Ghosts than on the living, so the living aren't the focus of the horror, and as such, for Ravenloft, it's a relative Utopia ''for the living''. Once you die there, however...
* Kurt Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron" is widely interpreted as a parody of such works.
* The Federation of [[Star Trek]] seems like a Mary Suetopia on the surface. However because the show was initially focused on morality stories the "Insane Admiral" trope crops up every now and then, showing some leaks beneath the surface. In latter seasons of TNG and all Deep Space Nine those leaks become full blown cracks, with the Maquis and the consequences of the Dominion War. Captain Sisko even rants about this a few times during the show. Earth in Star Trek is practically a paradise compared to most other planets in the galaxy, and thus "It's easy to be a saint in paradise." With examples such as the Federation spy agency Section 31 engineering a virus to use on The Dominion's Founders(aka rulers) or Sisko himself collaborating with a former Cardassian spy/assassin to bring the Romulans into the war via a ''massive'' fraud.

* Alpha Complex, from [[Paranoia]]. Need more be said?


== Somewhat Special Cases ==

There are a few cases of characters who could be referred to in-universe as a Sue, or serve as a non-joking deconstruction of the idea, or are referred to above sufficiently to be worth describing, but aren't actually Sues. (Characters who veer in and out of Suedom depending on the writer or episode go on the main list, BTW.)

* The Crimson King from Stephen King's Dark Tower series. He's talked up as a big threat, and his plan legitimately threatens the universe; but when confronted, he turns out be a paper tiger, whose chief power was getting so many people and monsters working on one page on his plan to destroy the world, and was otherwise actually rather mediocre compared to them. Given the heavy theme of '''disappointment''' in both the series as a whole and the last book of it in particular, this sorta worked on a meta level, but was very, well, disappointing. (For the reason he's included here, see Darkseid above.)
* Griffith, from [[Berserk]], seems a Mary Sue on the surface, leading the efforts to save Midland and defeat the Kushan invaders while everything goes his way and everyone praises him... but then you remember that he's also a member of the Godhand who's got reality-warping powers and uses them to manipulate everything and everyone around him to his advantage. Basically, Griffith hacked the game and then began playing on the lowest difficulty, while making it harder for everyone else. If anything, Griffith is all the common jokes people make about a Mary Sue deconstructed, showing how utterly awful and soulless such a person would actually be. On the other hand, one of his former Warband member, Rickert, saw through his bullshit and slapped him for it even though he was not there when Griffith betrayed his comrade. So not everyone is falling for Griffith.

* Jonathan, from the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Superstar", provides a pretty good case study of the in-universe Mary Sue.

*Momonga/Ainz Ool Gown from Overlord boarders on Mary-Sueish and is the protagonist of an [[Isekai]] work, but is also a decent deconstruction of invincible Villain Sues at the same time. He is transported to a fantasy world as his [[Lich]] MMO avatar, along with his Guild Hall and all its NPCs, now alive. He's still a no-life (literally) Japanese salary man, but finds he has lost his humanity and feelings, all the better to pretend to be (and eventually become) the overlord his adoring minions expect. These expectations pressure him to conquer the world with his gamer skills, system knowledge and corporate experience, min-maxing his way to success whilst bullshitting people that he's an evil mastermind. He still has many advantages however in resources, magic and diplomacy (substituting sales pitches for evil monologues, surprisingly easy) compared to all other characters so far. This results in him single-handedly winning wars, having an Empire become a vassal state almost by accident, and annexing a whole town from a neighbouring kingdom to rule over (Word of god is that no other YGGDRASIL players will appear). Being by many definitions OP, drama arises from him not having complete control and knowledge of his minions' actions. Though fanatically loyal they are constantly guessing his true intentions to try and impress him, misinterpreting his commands, and in some cases almost outright deceiving him. Two such examples are Ainz's advisor Albedo plotting behind his back to kill other Supreme Beings that he wants alive and unharmed, and Demiurge harvesting human captives to make magical items (Ainz himself mistakenly thinks Demiurge is only using animals because Demiurge refers to humans as animals on account of his contempt for mortal races). Both are in part because of Ainz's actions, and in any case, he has ordered equally terrible things himself. :* While most of Ainz's female guardians lust after him, even this is deconstructed. Albedo's a succubus, so lust is par the course, and yandere for Ainz because he altered her code in YGGDRASIL to change her from " a slut" to "in love with Momongo" as a joke. Shalltear wants Ainz because he's a walking skeleton and she's a necrophile (and not to Ainz' taste being a loli vampire; yeah... even then she holds her absent YGGDRASIL creator in higher esteem than Ainz) and Aura keeps a lid on her crush (she's also a flat-chested teenage elf and wary of jealous reprisals from Albedo and Shalltear). Ultimately, the fact that Ainz is a walking skeleton means he's unable to fulfill their desires or consummate his own.
:*TL:DR: Ainz's skills as a salary man and a competitive gamer don't translate well to politics or world conquest. Without his own gamebreaking powers, his almost as powerful loyal NPCs, his skull poker face and incompetence from some of the enemy commanders, Ainz's plans wouldn't have worked nearly as well.

* The Monkey King, from [[Mythology|Journey To The West]], if one assumes he isn't a religious figure and thus safe to include in this list, is interesting in that while he's very close to being a Mary Sue, several factors drag him away from the classification:
*#He's charged with protecting an unworldly monk, along with a horse, an idiot, and a SUPER idiot. Rescuing them is most of what he does in the main body of the story.
*#He's repeatedly shown as being outwitted by the Buddha. While he's more clever than anybody else besides the Buddha, the implication is clear: there '''are''' people better than him.
*#Even if one cares to dip into a religious reading, one can see in his introduction the clear Buddhist message "No matter how awesome you are, you are still trapped in the machinations of Desire and Karma"; alternately, even if you don't care for religion, there's also the message "make enough of a nuisance of yourself, and your enemies will eventually slap you down even if it means _____" (in the case of the Monkey King, swallowing their pride and asking help from somebody they dislike). (In other words: A deconstruction of certain kinds of Mary Sues, before the idea of a "Mary Sue" was even created.)

* [[The Raven Queen]] is a fairly good example of why "Mary Sue" accusations, unless taken from a Author Centered or Functional perspective, are somewhat useless. TRQ hits many Mary Sue buttons, and thus is sometimes accused of being a Sue; ''HOWEVER,'':
** She's never the protagonist, and when she does appear, she's treated the same as any of the other deities in 4e. Accusations of Functional Suedom thus sort of fall flat.
** While she may hit some Authorial-Centered (or Doyalist) definitions of the term, it's probably more appropriate to compare her to just about any other non-monster female character in 4th Edition D&D in this context--while she is obviously designed to attract those who are attracted to a certain kind of woman, so are all the other non-monster females (to quote a famous demotivator, "RPG Artwork: Let's face it, a lot of it is porn. (Pretty odd porn, too.)").
** She is no longer an example at all due to her backstory being completely rewritten in 5th edition to make her fit in with the setting better. She is no longer even a god since her attempt to become one was sabotaged, turning her into a phantom with a craving for knowledge and memories.

* Saitama from One-Punch Man. A manga/anime/webcomic that satirizes comic book super heroes. As the title says he able to defeat just about any opponent with one punch (with a few exceptions that require two or, rarely, three). While stronger than most of the "S-Class heroes" (the highest rank in the Hero Association), at the start of the series Saitama's personal life pretty much sucked. He had to pinch pennies to eat and had no knowledge of the Hero Association until he was notified by others of it's existence. As most can easily guess his strength makes most fights unsatisfying for him. Even the arc villains who force him to use his Serious Series techniques will leave him bored. Since nobody knew who he was until recently. Credit for his work went to other people and the super hero name he was given by the association is "Caped Baldy".
** Just to be clear, the main reason why he's not actually a Sue has to do with the usual focus of the series: That Saitama gets no satisfaction from his lopsided victories, and the fact that the World's Strongest Man is something of a pathetic loser.

* Rick Sanchez from Rick and Morty. When it comes to his (seemingly) limitless ability to invent crazy sci-fi tech and to get himself out of virtually every tough spot, not to mention with getting away with being a colossal jerk to everyone around him, Rick could qualify as an anti-Sue. But his character is far from perfect, and he often falls under a combination of archetype and deconstruction. As a person, he is an older man who’s had a tough break (divorce and the death of a close family member in some parallel universe), and the fact that he has all this tech and that he either can't solve his personal problems or prevent new ones from occurring. Though the fact that he can be funny, the handful of moments of his positive qualities and being a fictional character do contribute to his likability.
** Again, to be clear: Rick's antics would probably qualify him for the main list, but the show is very clear on a few points that move him here: First, Rick is an asshole, and not the type you want to be, either (it's almost directly stated that his assholery grows from some pretty grim experiences and knowledge); second, Rick is not somebody you want to be, nor be around; and third, the writers realize that he's both of the above.

* The main casts of [[Star Trek]] TOS and TNG (besides Wesley due to being Rodenberry's self insert, above)--in particular, James T. Kirk when not written by William Shatner-- provide a good reference line for Suedom. Although they are usually right by authorial fiat, there are several points that point the other way from Suedom:
*#They are also usually allowed to be wrong about an issue, at least initially (and rarely, but enough to be worth mentioning, all the way to the end of the story)
*#The fact that the focus is usually on the scenario presented, rather then the perfectness of the characters
*#They all have character flaws (even Kirk's "No Such Thing As A No Win Situation" attitude is presented as something that ''could'' get him and his crew killed one day)
*#They are not omni-compitent, even within their field--even Kirk has been outmaneuvered on occasion
*#Most importantly, the writing is usually of sufficient quality to not make their perfectness an issue (except, in Kirk's case, for works written by William Shatner)
*#Notably, as part of #2 and #5, there is no "right" solution to many of the situations beyond "survival"; the audience is usually allowed to draw its own conclusions about the morality of the situation, something usually lacking in the writing of the type of author who perpetrates a Sue.
** Combined, these points make them a good reference line for "hyper-competent" characters: Beyond here may lie Suedom

* At first glance, Tsukiko from [[Order of the Stick]] seems like a textbook Mary Sue, given the LONG list of Mary Sue boxes she ticks: Heterochromatic eyes, great beauty, skimpy clothing, unusually skilled for her young age, Japanese name meaning "moon child", oppressed by a stuck-up society not understanding her greatness etc. But in reality, Rich Burlew wrote her as a satirization and deconstruction of the Mary Sue archetype and the mindset that often creates such characters. The "misunderstanding" in question? They threw her in jail for '''literal''' corpsefucking. (Yes, she's a necrophiliac, and it's treated as being just as gross as it is IRL.) Great beauty? Nobody cares, and it doesn't make her a good person by default. Sees good in the bad guys that nobody else does? It's based on deliberately ridiculous logic that is completely wrong anyway. ([[What|The living are jerks, and the undead are the opposite of the living, ergo the undead must be good people]], she claims, the batshit insanity of which is called out for what it is. Also, she thinks that Xykon is some kind of Edward Cullen type-guy, as opposed to the Chaotic Evil Lich Sorcerer he ''actually is''.) A bad guy becomes a complete dumbass to accommodate her genius? Nope, Redcloak only let her have her way so his own, far more subtle machinations could avoid having attention drawn to them, and when she forces his hand he gladly demonstrates to her that she was completely outclassed by him the whole time. And to really drive home how wrong about herself she was, when she dies nobody on Team Evil gives a damn except the Monster in the Darkness, which only seems to have happened because he/she/whatever is the resident softie of the team. Also, Redcloak let her die at the hands of her own wights, [[Slaanesh|simultaneously her surrogate children, minions and lovers]], after controlling them, removing her ring that made her immune to level drain and giving her a "You suck!" speech about how undead are not people, just complex weapons, her thinking otherwise doesn't make it so and if she ever thought he was powerless before her, she was dead wrong, for a delicious dose of karma.
** TL;DR version: Tsukiko is a parody of a Sue, who is shown to be objectively deluded about everything.


[[Category:Mary Sue]]

Edgy

2020-10-09T04:40:05Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Notable Edgelords */

{{Topquote|As far as I can make out "edgy" occurs when middlebrow, middle-aged profiteers are looking to suck the energy--not to mention the spending money--out of the "youth culture." So they come up with this fake concept of "seeming to be dangerous when every move they make is the result of market research and a corporate master plan".|[[Daria 40k|Daria]], Episode [3.05] The Lost Girls.}}

{{Topquote|My name is Not Important; what is important is what I'm going to do. I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on its carcass. My whole life is just cold, bitter hatred, and I always wanted to die violently. This is the time of vengeance, and no life is worth saving, and I will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for me to kill and it's time for me to die; my genocide crusade begins... here!|The Crusader, aka Not Important}}

{{Topquote|Make it [[World of Darkness|dark]], make it [[Grimdark|grim]], make it [[ANGRY MARINES|tough]] but then, for the love of God, [[Comedy Marines|tell a joke]].|Joss Whedon giving a nice example on how to avoid being edgy even while creating a dark world}}

[[File:Marvel Edge.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Unabashed Edginess from the 1990s]]
'''Edginess''' refers to people trying too hard (and sometimes too aggressively) to make things more tragic, [[grimdark]], controversial or cool. This often takes the form of senselessly driving a vague argument, a plotline or a scenario to its darkest possible outcome, all the while openly expressing their disdain for whoever "the establishment" is, rationalizing villains or finding a middle ground in discourses. Like most internet terminology, it has been beaten to death, resurrected hastily, and then beaten some more. Has no relation to ''[[Hunter: The Reckoning]]''.

Another far less negative use of the term is to describe something on the 'edge' of what's acceptable, pushing established boundaries of convention. For example, by this definition ''Batman: The Animated Series'' was edgy for making an animated series which defied expectations of how true to its base concept and generally well-written a show designed to sell toys could be. Some more examples of this would be Ren and Stimpy (which was crude and vulgar) or Invader Zim (which could get dark in subject matter, and used a fair bit of black humor); in both cases, a decent bit of the comedy was of the "I can't believe that they did ''THAT'' on a kid's cartoon show!" variety. A milder version of this was Sonic the Hedgehog in contrast to Mario. In 1989 the Simpsons was the Edgy take on the classic family sitcom archetype and in 1999 Family Guy had slotted itself in as the Edgy version of The Simpsons. For the 1990s and early 2000s Edgy was a favored term of cynical marketing types which drew the attention of the world's sarcastic snarkers, many of which came to congregate on sites such as 4chan.

An "edgelord" is someone who essentially is guilty of serial attempts to be edgy, like [[that guy]] at your tabletop role playing group who always, without fail, makes brooding loners skilled at violence who hate anyone else having authority over them (with their opponents often being stand-ins for whoever the edgelord considers "The Man™", such as big business, law enforcement and organized religion), are anti-conformist and have a troubled past - all without the nuance or skill to actually pull it off. The end result is they makes themselves look silly. "Art" done by edgelords contain characters who are as dark, brooding and as painfully unhappy as possible, conflicts have zero compromise, institutions are the villains unless the edgelord made them and any conflict of interest will have the worst possible outcome. In writing, edgelords will go out of their way to make the story extra depressing, and subject multiple aspects of it to an increased shock factor when it's clearly '''illogical''' to do so. Needless to say, it can drive a perfect idea to make an entertaining story into the shitter, grating the nerves of even the most jaded audience. When commenting, the "edgelord" will simply push any predicament in the artwork to the darkest, deepest, worst outcome, while describing his fantasies. For example: In an adult and/or bondage predicament picture, edgelords can be found describing a paragraph of horrible fate the captive would suffer, *should* suffer because slaves are shit, and *deserve* abuse, even when the picture was of a predicament with nothing in context. Or he will simply fill the comment of any NSFW picture with his own sick fantasies, surely adding "women DESERVE it".

This is not to say that said dark elements like murder, slavery, rape and bodily harm are bad for literature, but rather that their sloppy execution with no regard to their depth is. As shown above, even the most "edgelord" of concepts can be salvaged and even made bearable with proper handling, especially going by the latter definition - but if you do it enough, the boundaries shift and what was edgy becomes the new norm, and there is always the risk of falling ''over'' the edge. This is why the old definition has fallen increasingly out of favor as time has gone on — people began seeing the dross sold under the title of "edgy", and the idea of what it meant thus moved away from the positive connotations marketing execs desired and closer to the qualities described above. Plus, this is the internet, and people would rather a word just be an insult or a compliment to reduce confusion.

==The Anatomy of Edginess==
Edginess is in some ways like a cargo cult. During WWII in the Pacific, the US military set up bases on remote, but inhabited islands, bringing with them a lot of stuff like planes and cars and so forth that was quite amazing to the stone age natives, to whom the world had been a few dozen square kilometers of land surrounded by ocean, with hazy stories of other such islands. When the military left, some of the natives took to making coconut and wooden radios and flight towers based off of some vague recollection of the military variants, unaware that making the shape alone does not get you the functional item.

In that vein, most of what comes to mind when people envision "edgy" artworks tends to be the result of people who wanted to make ''morally grey'' characters and subject matter, but lack the maturity/experience/focus necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess. Someone with (at best) mediocre creative abilities sees some fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humor and such, made by people who know what the hell they're doing and figures "I can do that!", leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful. The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies, commonly embody this - all too eager for "adult" things (eg: violence, sex, etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Individuals who pander to said demographic (or are otherwise just downright hacks) will favor this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

===Edgy and [[Grimdark]]===
While edginess is frequently associated with invoking grimdark [[Derp|for the sake of it and nothing else]], it's important to remember that this alone does not edgy make. As an example, [[WH40K]]'s [[Imperium of Man]] has reasons to be fair and kind when capable: though it has plenty of genocide, xenocide (completely annihilating species even when they are gentle and kind), torture, forced labor (they draw the line at commercialized chattel slavery, but un-unionized indentured servitude is fair game), witch hunts and militarism that would give Hitler a chubby beyond the grave, said horrors have reasonable justifications. Aliens were buying and selling humans like pets and culling them by the billion, operating slaver outposts even in our solar system before the Emperor came into leading humanity into a roaring rampage of revenge. And regarding souls and the universe after the Heresy, any deviation from faith in the Emperor will ''literally'' send a human to hell upon death, with their soul becoming dæmon food (and/or sex toys).

Any mistreated machinery will attract foul entities and corruption that will fuck you up seven ways till Monday and chew you out; any ill-coaxed [[Machine Spirit]] will jam and blow up in your face; and any laxity will make [[Chaos]] cults pop up by the billion in a week. Then there's [[Necrons|the genocidal robots from another age]], [[Eldar|space elves that would murder a planet on the off chance that their]] [[Farseer]] would break a nail otherwise (and they're still the nice space elves despite that, as their [[Dark Eldar|webway dwelling cousins are even worse - murdering entire planets just because they like the sound of millions of people screaming]]), [[Orks|the ambulatory (AND belligerent) fungi that plague the entire galaxy in a series of wars]], and [[Tyranids|extragalactic horrors that intend to eat everyone's face.]] [[TL;DR]] The Imperium acts like an asshole Hitler/Hirohito bastard child because the alternative is much, MUCH worse.

At the level of narrative, the fact that things are very very bad is a core thematic element of this world. As pointed out there are reasons why things are so miserable in this world which flow logically and despite this there can be points of contrast. Imperials still have the same potential to love and be kind like modern real world humans do. The Tau are hopeful despite the evils of this world. Occasionally pragmatism can overcome the deep seeded prejudices to overcome greater evils, if only for a while. And even if it is preformed by Conscript Guardsmen, Commissars or Space Marines, each the product of horrendous military institutions, can fight to achieve acts of genuine (if still typically brutal) heroism.

Now if you want a senselessly edgy story in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, an example would be the now non-canon [[Khornate Knights]].

===In closing===
There are many paths to success for a storyteller, some of which include going over dark territory in various ways or by innovating and pushing boundaries. However, all of them require care and attention to detail to pull off well. Being dark is not a magic bullet for achieving profoundness without trying.

==Notable Edgelords==

*[[Elric]] of Melnibone, arguably the first one.
*The Punisher (pictured above), depending on the writer.
** The ultimate example of "pointless edge" with this character is writer Garth Ennis' (and Ennis himself is quite the edgelord, just look at the original comic version of The Boys) professionally published Hate Fic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"] (with a character arc Ennis would later re-use for Billy Butcher in The Boys).
*The Joker, depending on the writer. In particular, look at Heath Ledger's, Joaquin Phoenix's and Jared Leto's takes on him.
** However, both Ledger's and Phoenix's Joker portrayals were "edge with a point". Ledger's Joker was an exploration of human evils regarding terrorism and the various morality problems in dealing with it. Likewise for Phoenix's Joker, except the exploration was on the Origins of Evil. Jared Leto's Joker, on the other hand, was almost textbook pointless "Edgelord".
*[[Drizzt]] clones with extreme Alignment leanings, either towards good or evil.
*Some [[World of Darkness]] characters, particularly Sabbat or Baali.
*Various [[Original character, do not steal|fan-made]] and canon Sonic characters, particularly Shadow.
** If you want the textbook definition of "pointless edge", go look up [[/v/|Shadow the Hedgehog]] for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube. For the unfamiliar: An edgy game about a cartoon hedgehog shooting enemies, yet ESRB rated for Everyone 10 and up.
** And in the game ''Sonic Forces'', which actually lets you play as your OC through a custom avatar, the villain Infinite is a parody of edgy villain sue characters.
*Several in [[World of Warcraft]]. Character-wise the worst offenders are - in ascending order - Illidan Stormrage (in ''"Burning Crusade"'' and the second half of ''"Legion"''), Deathwing (in ''"Cataclysm"'') and Sylvanas Windrunner (the entirety of World of Warcraft). Others include several Death Knights and lots of the Demon Hunters and Forsaken (even their faction names are edgy).
*Several characters from [[A Song of Ice and Fire]], depending on the books or the TV adaptation. Examples from both include Euron Greyjoy, Littlefinger and Ramsay Bolton.
*Half of the [[Animu]] protagonists in existence. Bonus points if the genre is [[Isekai]], triple points if there's a harem involved.
*Reaper from Overwatch
*[[Blackguard]]s
* Warhammer 40k has so, so many there's entire edgelord ''factions'', such as the [[Chaos Space Marine|traitor marines]], the [[Black Templars]] and [[Dark Eldar]] (DE get extra points for their love of selfishness and torture fetishes). Character examples include Rogal Dorn, Konrad Cruze, Phoenix Lord Maugan Ra, Urien Rakarth and Drazhar.
* Warhammer Fantasy, similar to above but to a lesser degree. Notable examples here include [[Valnir|Valnir the Reaper]], [[Nagash]] and most Dark Elves.
*[[Malal]]. As if the Chaos gods' emotional tantrums are not enough, there exists this guy who out-hates everyone, including himself, with servants who are tougher and stronger than theirs.
*Caesar's Legion and Caesar himself in [[Fallout|Fallout: New Vegas]] (along with some of their fans and the writer who created them).
*[[Star Wars|Kylo Ren]] AKA Krylo Ben AKA Ben Swolo. The writers were doing it on purpose, to play up the First Order's dogmatic North Korea in space schtick, and to that end made Kylo an incredibly unsubtle Darth Vader pastiche. While "Kylo" may be the worst Skywalker ever, there is no denying that the edge is strong in his family. His mom's side are a bunch of crybaby desert backworlders with an incestuous sex drive and his dad was a scruffy, nerf herding spice smuggler - and all were war criminals, some with body counts in the hundred thousands and some with children's blood on their hands... He probably fits the mold better than we'd like to admit. Also his edge is undermined by fact that he never won a fight against [[Mary_Sue|Mar-Rey Sue Palpatine]] which doesn’t help things either.
* Lord Edgelord, later Lord Edgegod from Slackwyrm Keep. He's aware, and <s>he's loving it</s>***CLANG!*** There's no love in edge, only chaos!
* Not Important aka The Antagonist aka The Crusader from Hatred. Imagine every trope related to edgy nihilistic spree shooters, push them to their uncomfortable extremes and then plop the result in a monochromatic mess of a game. What you get is the story about a very unlikable man with dialogue written by less likeable people (including an edgy as fuck death metal band) going around and killing everyone because...fuck you, it's edgy.
* The whole "*teleports behind you* Nothing personal kid. *stabs you*" meme originated as a parody of edgelord characters.

[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Religion

2020-10-09T04:19:17Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Religion vs. Mythology */

{{flamewar}}
{{topquote|Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge, which is power; religion gives man wisdom, which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals.|Martin Luther King, Jr}}

:'''Dracula''': ''I was called here by, huuuuumans, who wish to pay me tribute!''
:'''Richter Belmont''': ''Tribute?! You steal men's souls! And make them your slaves!''
:'''Dracula''': ''Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.''
::--An excerpt from the infamous exchange that also gave us "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets" in [[Castlevania#Castlevania:_Symphony_Of_The_Night_.28Castlevania_9.29|Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.]]

Because it's important to several settings and RPG systems, particularly ones that are high-profile or relevant to /tg/, we have a religion article. Let's try and keep it focused on the directly-related-to-/tg/ stuff and not descend into the pure [[skub]] that can arise in discussions of real-life religions, okay?

==Definition of Religion==
Almost since the inception of the term, scholars have failed to agree on a definition of religion. While there are some belief systems that always count as religions, some have applied the term to various things such as political ideologies, or groups when they reach a certain point. There are however two general definition systems: the sociological/functional and the phenomenological/philosophical.

The two most widely accepted are:
* "a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say things set apart and forbidden - beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a church, all those who adhere to them."
* "a comprehensive worldview or 'metaphysical moral vision' that is accepted as binding because it is held to be in itself basically true and just even if all dimensions of it cannot be either fully confirmed or refuted".

As stated before, one common element that every religion which fits the criteria has is humanity's relation to supernatural forces, as all of them have at least one [[God|god]] and/or an afterlife even where there are exceptions; Buddhism doesn't have any gods or its own idea of the cosmos' origins but has afterlives and the existence of the eternal soul (unless a persons achieves nirvana), and Taoism doesn't have an afterlife in the conventional sense but is pantheistic.

Like other terms for heavily [[SJW|debated]] [[communism|subjects]], religion and religious have also been used as insults or Snarl Words in social and political discussions (especially from the 20th century and onwards) to ridicule groups openly promoting something the user disagrees with. This snarl creates a caricature of the group to smear them by association with the worst excesses/negative stereotypes of religious people (like being preachy, judgmental, irrational, hypocritical).

==List of Real-Life Religions==

Too many to list, even without debates about the term. In lieu of a list on this site, here are two complied lists that should cover everything that fits the bill. Otherwise, check out the [[Mythology]] page.

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions Wikipedia's list of religions and spiritual traditions]
* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups For a simplified version from Wikipedia that focuses more on major religions]

==Religion vs. Mythology==
While [[Mythology|mythologies]] aren't religions in and of themselves, every religion has a mythology. While mythologies are merely the accounts of supernatural events, religions add rituals, practices and hierarchies that link those mythologies directly to the lives of their believers in one form or another, typically by describing how to properly serve to a god (or multiple gods, it depends) a significant role in the mythology a given religion is derived from. [[Skub|Whatever the source]], the mythology almost always predates the religion. As a result, especially since the Fantasy genre deals in supernatural beings and forces, most if not all fantasy settings have religions. Science fiction does to a lesser degree, mostly because during the Golden Age of sci-fi empiricists and secular humanists were attracted to the genre and their views often seeped into their stories. Despite this, given that most real-life societies have had religions playing a role in or since their founding, religions are still found in sci-fi.

Religions involves belief systems and practices, where an adherent can call upon the power/being the religion is focused on to give them aid in [[cleric|various]] [[Paladin|ways]], depending at the very least on the religion and the task in question. Given that religions are about people's place in the world, how it was made, ideas on how life should be lived and how humans should relate to the supernatural, they have major implications for societies. Given that people can become [[Exarch|dangerously single-minded]] about a cause, people can be become extremists about their religion, regardless of the fact that [[Heironeous|some]] are more benevolent than [[Asmodeus|others]] and in numerous cases even [[Heresy|if it involves going against the religion's teachings]]; in conjunction with the above this means religious conflicts can become widespread, long-lasting, cause carnage and also involve other elements such as politics- both in fantasy and in the real world.

==Role in Society==
A person's belief (for or against) any or all religions is a major factor in their worldview, and as such often serves as the undercurrent for all others. This is because this belief shapes people's views on the big things such as the purpose of life, how life should be lived in relation to oneself and others and what happens to people after they die. On the upside, this often leads to teachings with the goal of unity, peace, charity and co-operation as per the teachings of most religions, some of which are adapted by or also found among non-religious systems. On the downside, this can lead to clashes over how the people involved do the will of whichever beings or forces they follow, which religion should be followed or whether or not people should follow a god or religion at all. This can involve arguments and factionalizing, or in some cases worse things like pogroms and wars. Since they are an overarching and fairly common element in cultures, they often appear or are referenced in fiction.

The most common religious belief systems are the Abrahamic family of religions (primarily Judaism, Christianity and Islam) which are Monotheistic (belief in a singular God) and share many common elements and root, with - at the time this was written - Christianity being the most followed religion globally. Historically, these and other religions were frequently enshrined in law as the "state religion", giving them special privileges such as extensive influence over the government or tax exemptions. In some cases, they even took over the functions of the government entirely in a system known as theocracy; while uncommon in the present day, theocracies are still in use in places such as the Vatican and Iran.

Within the last few centuries, due to events such as the French Revolution, there has also been a significant amount of anti-religious sentiment, which regards religion as at best redundant and at worst destructive (beyond historical grievances with specific groups within religions, reasons for this view and whether or not those arguments have any merit, shall not be discussed here). For the most part, a combination of people identifying more with their culture or nation than their religion and the concept that religion and functions of state should not interfere with each other has turned into more of a "live and let live" mentality that doesn't really support or oppose any one religion and only reacts when said religions begin actively defying the state or the state starts bringing the boot down on religion.

Throughout history, numerous tyrannical regimes have tried to restrict or stamp out religions. This is usually because religious teachings put the figure/object of worship before the state in a conflict of interest and most religions' teachings condemn tyranny or [[Slaanesh|the vices tyrannical leaders indulge]]. Other reasons include tyrants dislike being answerable to anyone besides themselves and a tyrant may have some form of anti-religious prejudice. While nations have usually tried to block specific religions deemed "false" (read: religions opposing the state-sponsored religion in any way), several nations (usually [[Communism|Communist]] states which took Marx's "religion is the opiate of the masses" quote out of context as a call to arms rather than a passive theory) have tried to get rid of religion altogether, albeit with horrifying [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Militant_Atheists results] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge_rule_of_Cambodia#Religious_communities each] time. Best case scenario, they sidegrade from one set of problems to another as cults of personality (commonly ones based on the ruler in charge) spring up to exploit the newly created power vacuum while believers who survive the regime try to continue their activities in secret. Worst case scenario, the society and its population degenerates into [[Commorragh|a violent, fractious, and nihilistic shell of their former selves]].

Aside from the aforementioned theocracies, the most religious nations are countries such as Brazil in South America or Zambia in Africa (Zambia even has a state religion alongside a law that allows for freedom of religion). China is - at the time this was written - the world's least religious and most atheistic country (the situation around North Korea is [[Skub|debatable]], since even though they violently suppress religions [https://www.foxnews.com/world/north-korea-publicly-executes-80-some-for-videos-or-bibles-report-says to the point that merely having copies of religious texts can be grounds for execution], they also have the Kim Cult blended with the Marxist offshoot ideology Juche).

==How this impacts /tg/==
A few major ways. Since most if not every society in real-life has had religion either be the basis for its founding or play a role in it, religion is just as involved in the backstory or current lore of settings. There are three major "modes" of /tg/ settings and related fictions:
* Purely functional use of religion as a story device. (What we might call "Functionalists")
* Endorsement of religion and/or religious people. (What we might call "Religion is Good" types)
* Criticism of religion and/or religious people. (What we might call "Religion is Bad" types)
For ease of categorization, writers who use these modes will also be called proponents, detractors or functionalists (who can be pro, anti or neutral).

===Religion as a story device/Functionalists===
Compared to the two types of writers found below, these writers are usually just attempting to model their work after real-world [[Mythology]] and are frequently attempting to keep their views of Religion separate from their work. Frequently comes in one of two subspecies:
* The [[Standard Fantasy Setting]] default: The world is ruled by an ordinary polytheistic pantheon, usually close to some admixture of Norse and Greek mythologies. Some of them also have a Top God more powerful than all the others, and maybe the in-universe creator of everything who is mostly hands-off in cosmic affairs. The gods of these religions tend to focus on specific areas (gods of [[Paladin|Justice]] and [[Druid|Nature]] are common, for subtly obvious reasons) and frequently want their followers to propagate or promote these things.
* The kind of setting they wanted to make dictated the nature of the divine. For example, in [[Exalted]] just about all the figures anybody would call a "God" (besides the Exalted) are Useless, because the Exalted (which includes the Player Characters) are the guys who were made specifically to do whatever the gods needed them to do for reasons inherent to the setting, to go with the main theme of the setting for the PCs: "You can do '''almost anything''', except ''avoid the consequences of being the one who did that anything''".

===Religion as a Bad Thing/Detractors===
There are several writers of Science Fiction and Fantasy that are of the opinion "Religion Is Bad", often alongside having an axe to grind (sometimes warranted, sometimes not) with either one or more specific real-life religions. This is more common in Sci-Fi than fantasy because the focus on science appeals to the naturalist, empiricist and/or humanist worldview of such writers, with the supernatural being seen as an obstacle to that. Despite that, the view is found among some fantasy authors as well, such as the author of the book series "His Dark Materials", Philip Pullman (he wrote it as pushback against C.S Lewis' "Chronicles of Narnia" series). Whatever the genre, this comes in flavors of either "The Gods Don't Exist", "The Gods are Incompetent" (more on that below) or "The Gods are Evil". Cosmic Horror also tends to use the "Gods Don't Exist" or "Gods are Evil" route, or combine them into "The Gods are actually Incomprehensible and Destructive Aliens" (for example; the author who codified the genre, [[H.P. Lovecraft]], was an avowed anti-religious atheist - which is why cults are recurring villains in his stories). This also has the side effect of inclining science fiction towards an atheistic perspective.

Another major component is personal issues of the author such as grievance or prejudice, but that's case-by-case and a major can of worms. A writer could have resentment against a specific religion or even the higher power a religion reveres (though opposition to a god or gods is called anti-theistic, not anti-religious), and single them out in their works due to personal bias or agenda. Worst case scenario, the story is some sort of anti-religious wish fulfillment power fantasy - such as Frank Miller's "Holy Terror" comics against Islam and Garth Ennis' "Preacher" comics (and their live-action adaptation) against Christianity.

Whatever the motivation, writers saying this message either model their fictional religions on the - occasionally exaggerated - worst excesses of real world religious people or use a fictional religion as a (usually strawman) stand-in of a real one. The most frequently targeted religions are Christianity, Islam, any faith that practiced human sacrifice (such as the Aztec religious practices) and Scientology. Cults, especially those with beliefs that mainstream religions consider unorthodox or outright heretical, are especially fertile ground for this message, albeit running the risk of being misapplied to tar other groups with the same brush.

===Religion as a Good Thing/Proponents===
There are several Science Fiction and Fantasy writers who either are religious themselves and want to promote their worldview, look upon religion positively and put that into the story or both. This is more common in Fantasy than Sci-fi, partly because with the supernatural being THE fundamental element of the genre, this gives opportunities to explore many aspects of religiosity. This is less common in science-fiction, but not unheard of, such as Carl Sagan's novel "Contact" where God's signature is found in the digits of pi. These authors usually put more thought into their fictional religion plus its central figure (although they have a tendency to go all "Crystal Dragon Jesus"), and try and have it be at least a somewhat good influence, although religious institutions and leaders are usually hit-and-miss affairs.

Some people make a fictional setting with figures from real-world religions, either in the real-world or [[CS Lewis|an alternate world (such as Narnia)]]. Others use fictional religions that either visually resemble real-life religions or figures from them; religions that often get this treatment are the Abrahamic faiths (most often Christianity), Greek mythology, Egyptian mythology and Norse mythology (albeit often a sanitized version of the latter three). In other cases they all but abandon any form of subtlety, with the fictional religion being distinguished from the real-world religion the author follows by only a handful of minor changes. Naturally, those kinds of works tend to come off as preachy, to say the least.

Another route this uses is the route that faith itself provides the power as per "[[Belief Function|Belief Function]]" (think Morpheus' "your mind makes it real" quote, but applying at the cosmological level). In fact, Warhammer often goes the route that the gods are powered by faith as well as from their sphere of influence which has either [[Sigmar|caused some people have risen to godhood]] or [[Ynnead|caused new gods to be born in the setting]]. In fact, this has proven the greatest weapon against Chaos in every Warhammer setting (and why the Emperor's plan to starve the Chaos Gods with atheism was doomed to fail from the start).

===Somewhat special cases===

One somewhat special case is the "Religion of Evil"; in many settings, there is a religion that is explicitly capital E Evil and seeks one of the usual "Card Carrying Villain" goals of Control, Conquest, Corruption, or Destruction. Frequently has some admixture of the worst aspects of Roman Paganism, Norse practices, the Aztec, Scientology and/or the various Abrahamic religions. They also often draw from those found in the writings of H.P Lovecraft. If this cult directly worships an individual Evil God, expect whatever makes sense for that deity to be some form of destructive activity--e.g., the cult of the God of Murder demands human sacrifice on a regular basis, with a certain portion of that explicitly being not-careful-enough cultists. Regardless, Religions of Evil can show up in all three above modes, and usually has a special purpose in all three:

* All three types need bad guys. In particular, a group who by definition is Evil is always good for some no-need-to-worry-about-the-ethics-or-morality-of-killing fodder (based on the idea that everyone in is group is evil because you have to do evil to be part of the group).
* Religion is Bad types tend to use them to say either "while they're all Bad, some are worse then others", that "Religion can be used to justify anything", use it as a strawman to tar all with the same brush or they have a specific personal grudge (either against an entire religion, a group within that religion or specific individual adherents).
* Religion is Good types or the sincerely religious tend to use them as analogies with fanaticism, criticize Real World cults, compare different beliefs or deal with negative aspects of religion (occasionally making jabs at competitive religions, or fellow believers the author disagrees with). Another approach is to have a Religion of Good fighting against a Religion of Evil - either as the heroes of the story or a valued ally - to say "there is good religion, so don't tar all with the same negative brush".
** As a side note, a lot of fantasy has moved slightly away from pure Religions of Evil, for much the same reason as [[Always Chaotic Evil]] races (questions of whether this fosters prejudice against real-life groups and audiences and authors demanding more motive for their villains). While there are still plenty of them, they usually add some nuance that makes them at least morally neutral under their own lights. Popular options are for them to be an off-shoot/subset of another religion and/or be taking vengeance for an injustice (real or perceived, both of which have '''plenty''' of real-life precedent).

[[Urban Fantasy]] writers are another special case, since almost all Urban Fantasy is set in something that might be called "the real world with a twist", with all the usual political trouble that implies. As a result, they can take one of a few routes:
* The most common route is "there are many possible explanations" and vague things up as much as possible ([[True Faith|Faith]] being the power that repels [[Vampire]]s rather than than a cross having any actual connection to a deity is a popular one).
* The second most common route (albeit rarer outside of Cosmic Horror) is the "Religion as a Bad Thing" route; the story is straight up atheistic/"Religion is Bad" [[Imperial Truth|propaganda]] where the writer often has an axe to grind against a specific religion. It's a popular choice for writers trying to be [[Edgy]] who want to include religious subject matter in their stories, and they almost exclusively go after the most established religion in the area or any new cults that have emerged at the time. On that note, any fictional religions or cults are most likely thinly-veiled stand-ins for real life ones.
* Some Urban Fantasy works with a clear correct religion exist thanks to the above mentioned sincerely religious authors, which are typically [[Chick Tracts|barely veiled proselytizing]] or [[Twilight|just straight up terrible]], though [[Monster Hunter International|there are some good ones]].
* The fourth route, taken most notably by [[Supers|DC and Marvel comics]] among others, is to take an "All Myths are True" approach: All religions are sort of true, but none have any exclusivity to the Truth, so Thor and Athena might have the Archangel Michael on speeddial when the Orochi teams up with Apep to get up to no good and start making trouble in their neighborhoods (because "Mikey really likes kicking serpent tail, and gets annoyed when we don't at least try to invite him to an evil serpent ass-kicking."). Differs from the "vague things up" route by being clearer on some details, and also much more gonzo. The Abrahamic God is the exception here: He's usually kept especially vague, albeit more powerful (and yet infinitely less accessible) than anyone else in the setting, and only referred to by some codephrase (Marvel likes "The One Above All", DC generally goes for "The Presence" or "whatever is behind the Source Wall").

===Miscellaneous Observations===

Doing the "The Gods are Incompetent" thing (the similar but different "The Gods are Insane", "The Gods Are Assholes" and "The Gods Don't Actually Do Anything" routes also falls under this umbrella) can go into any of the three modes; in a sincere monotheist's (such as Christian) work, it can be a "Take That" to polytheistic religions; in a "Religion is Bad" atheist's, it can be one to religion in general; in a Buddhist-influenced work, it can be a part of the whole "even the Gods are tied up in the Wheel of Karma" concept; and, even if the author is not pushing any religious message in any way, there's a neutral, plot-structural reason to go "Incompetent Gods": it can make the adventurers the Most Competent People Available since if that wasn't the case there wouldn't be anything for the adventurers to do.

If a work has multiple writers, (as frequently happens with RPG and Wargame settings, and quite a few popular SciFi/Fantasy ones as well) there's a tendency for the writers to try and pull the setting into one of the other two "modes" depending on their personal views. This leads to the theme changing from one side to the other as the story progresses. A recent example is [[World of Warcraft|the spate of retcons to the cosmology of the Warcraft universe]] and the morality of its fundamental forces/dominant higher powers, the Light and the Void. If the story doesn't get focused on a pro-religion or anti-religion message, it may end up swinging back and forth between both sides or settle in a mid-point which doesn't take a strong stance either way.

Note that members of the "Religion is Bad" and "Religion is Good" brigades will get involved in arguments over the relative morality or "goodness" of various factions in the story and the accuracy of any messages a writer presents. Often history buffs will throw their hat into the ring as well.

==Examples of /tg/ connected fictional religions==
===Warhammer 40k===
* The [[Imperial Truth]] was originally the Emperor's plan on beliefs, which he and his servants propagated throughout the galaxy during the Great Crusade. Attempting to wean mankind away from Chaos and being a firm member of the "Religion is Bad" brigade, the Emperor proclaimed there are no gods, and religion had to be abolished willingly or by force while science or reason are to be used for explaining the universe and morality. Everything transpired according to his design, except theistic religiosity in the 40k universe is the best weapon against Chaos so Emps' interstellar state atheism policy gave them a major opening. Things went from bad to worse when people started looking up to the Emperor as a god himself, [[Exterminatus|he responded accordingly]], and the Chaos Gods got a new tool in the form of [[Lorgar]]. After the Horus Heresy and the Emperor's removal from galactic politics: the Imperial Truth was slowly shelved in favor of the Imperial Cult, to the point that espousing the teachings of the Truth is ironically considered heresy. Only a few practitioners of the Imperial Truth remain, most notably the Custodes and the Space Marines (both of whom know The Emperor better than anybody to worship him as a god. Plus, their religious autonomy.).
** The [[Imperial Cult]] is the present-day religion of the Imperium of Man, and is a mix of several Abrahamic Religions along with copious amounts of warmongering, fanaticism and xenophobia. Derived from the Lectitio Divinatus penned by [[Lorgar]] pre-HH, the Cult decrees that because the Emperor is capable of all these miracles and power: he ''must'' be a god, and why you should worship and pledge loyalty to him. Its a complete 180 from the Emperor's original teachings, and has simultaneously been responsible for damning and saving the Imperium past the clusterfuck of the Horus Heresy. It's unknown whether the Emperor still abhors godhood and religion and would abolish it the moment he could, or if he's resigned himself to becoming the very thing he fought against for mankind to persevere in these trying times. Whatever the case, he didn't want to be a god, but now he has no choice but to become one.
** The [[Adeptus Mechanicus|Cult Mechanicus]] (Machine Cult) is the religion of the Adeptus Mechanicus, placing a heavy emphasis on machines, viewing them as gifts from the Machine God called "The Omnissiah" Officially, the Omnissiah is The Emperor, which allows the Mechanicus to sidestep the more puritan pundits of the Imperial Cult (we worship The Emprah, just not how you do it). Unofficially, the Omnissiah may or may not be the C'tan god: The Void Dragon. It also has a high emphasis on the collection of knowledge, and one of the Admech's roles in the galaxy is to explore remote and uncharted regions of space to find and search for knowledge that has been lost throughout the millennia. The last of these, is guidelines on machines and knowledge. Officially, heretic(tek) and xeno works are to be abhorred and disposed of, viewing them as perversions of the holy Machine God's works. Unofficially however, more liberally-minded and higher-ranked Magos would happily hoard heretek/xeno works, seeing their potential over the more restricted and constrained works of the Mechanicus.

* Chaos is a violent and complicated henotheistic (believing in multiple gods but only worshipping one) or polytheistic religion with dozens, if not hundreds of interpretations. Even then, there's more sub-cults that worship their particular god in a specific way, either minutely or vastly different from everyone else among followers of the Big 4. And this doesn't even get into the realm of Chaos Undivided (which worships the concept of Chaos itself, instead of the individual gods) and [[Malal]]. Chaos has very little established guidelines regarding worship, apart from their patron god's/gods' general likes/dislikes, so any religious practices or rituals are either based on commands from the god/s or up to the imagination of the cult.
** Interestingly, there is a Space Marine of the Chaos faction who follows the Imperial Truth, and that is [[Fabius Bile]].

* All Greenskins worship Gork and Mork (jury's out on whether the [[Gretchin Revolutionary Committee]] do), but are too disorganized to have anything like a formal religion, though they do make effigies of Gork and Mork and call on them. The closest thing they have to tenants is that Gork favors violence, Mork favors cunning. Greenskins have gotten into fights over this, but violence is part of their nature and that of their gods. While they fight over religion, they also fight over almost any dispute anyway, and may even start a religious argument just to enjoy a good fight among themselves (though the only theological argument they can formulate is "is Gork the god of cunning or is Mork?" or vica versa). On the surface, religion does not play a big-enough role in Ork society compared to other races, being just another outlet for Orks to fight about. But if [[Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka|Ghazghkull]] is any indication: religion can have a great impact on Orks, with him being becoming one of the greatest Warlords in the galaxy, primarily because he thinks he's personally blessed by Gork and Mork themselves. So if you throw in the Orks' gestalt field into the mix, its likely that its not that religion doesn't matter to them, it's under-utilized.

* The Tau's creed "The [[Greater Good]]" is a specie-wide philosophy that was adopted ever since the initial unification of the Tau in the olden days. In a nutshell, the Greater Good emphasizes the co-existence of all Tau and sapient life in general into working together for a common goal to further the Tau's progress, seeing everyone's potential and hoping to utilize that for an, ahem, greater good. Personal religion isn't forbidden, but it must not contradict or override The Greater Good, and must be disregarded if it ever does so. Technically, this means Tau can be religious or non-religious, as the Greater Good is not a religion (due to lacking an afterlife and supernatural aspects, with the closest things to figures of worship being the Ethereals). This sounds all fine and dandy, but the Ethereal class, who are responsible for maintaining The Greater Good, have been shown to be less benevolent than believed and have been using their unnaturally powerful charisma to subtly oppress the Tau and use them to further their own agendas.
**The Farsight Enclaves, who have thrown off Ethereal rule, are the exception in that they have rejected The Greater Good, seeing it as the method of oppression used to keep the T'au under complete control of the ethereals. Due to this, if one considers the Greater Good a religion, The Enclaves are irreligious.
**As of the 4th Sphere Expansion disaster, Chaos Tau are starting to become a thing.
**At one point, the Earth Caste gathered Genestealer-infected Tau and studied them to see what would happen. Of course, a Genestealer cult developed and naturally they violently escaped control and surveillance. According to rumors, they've even produced a Genestealer-infected Ethereal.

* The Eldar have varying views on religiosity depending on their type. Their religion is polytheistic, with henotheistic offshoots, and Ausryan was the highest ranking god. However all of the Eldar gods were murder-raped to death by Slaanesh except for Isha (taken by Nurgle), Khaine (shattered and flung into realspace), Cegorach (hiding in the Webway) and Ynnead (born long after Slaanesh's birth). Their Pantheon's religious practices aren't fleshed out save for those of Cegorach, Isha, and Khaine, via the Harlequins and Aspect Warriors. With most of their gods out of commission, Eldar religious worship is of a deistic bent.
** Craftworlders and Exodites almost exclusively worship the original Eldar pantheon, though some engage in henotheistic worship of only one of the gods. Asuryan is more popular among Craftworlders while Isha is among Exodites, though nearly all give Khaine some tribute during war.
** Corsairs are all over the place, though Khaine is a popular choice given their more militant nature.
** Being agents of the Laughing God himself, the Harlequins' worship is centered around [[Cegorach]], whilst still paying minor tribute to the other gods.
** The new faith around Ynnead, the Ynnari, is rapidly growing but have yet to establish teachings or rituals.
** Unique among the Eldar, the Dark Eldar are irreligious for the most part and while they believe some gods exist they're too self-centered to worship them (this is canon). They're often also anti-religious to boot; a major landmark of Commorragh is a landfill of religious icons called Iconoclast's Mound, and one Wych cult - the Pain Eternal - revolves around killing religious people and destroying shrines and holy sites. The sole exception, except for Dark Eldar who stop being Dark Eldar, are the [[Incubi]] who hold [[Khaine]] in high regard.
** The Ynnari have encountered atleast one ancient Craftworld that turned into an entire Genestealer cult in a misguided attempt to avoid getting their souls consumed by Slaanesh as their ship had no infinity circuit present. We're not sure if this worked to any capacity (if at all, given the Hive Mind does not absorb souls), but they were taken down by the Ynnari for obvious reasons.
** There are numerous rumors of a very small number of Chaos Eldar, but these are barely fleshed out and heavily classified in-universe. There have been verified Nurgle-worshipping Eldar and persistent rumors that some have embraced Slaanesh without becoming soul-food. Apart from this, some Dark Eldar have been willing to summon Chaos Daemons or work with Chaos worshippers ([[Fabius Bile|or allies of Chaos]]) to further their own ends.

* While the Necrontyr had religions before certain [[C'tan|star entities]] [[Necrons|roboticizied them]], those aren't fleshed out or detailed. Its also heavily implied the C'tan co-opted the Necrontyr religion beforehand. With the change to Necrons taking the higher though processes of most of them, any Necrons who can comprehend faith and religiosity either worship the C'tan or have become irreligious.

* The Tyranids themselves are irreligious, being spehss bugs and all, but understand at least a few of the advantages of religion. [[Genestealer]]s infect people and together they establish cults on targeted worlds, such as one worshipping "Children of the Stars", a perversion of the Imperial Cult (such as one that worships a [[Swarmlord|four-armed]] version of the Emperor) or something else like "Celebrants of Nihilism" (yes, that's a canon Genestealer cult name). Psychic influence is often involved and, notably, the Genestealers do not consider themselves gods. Once the Tyranids arrive en-masse, the cult-gets assimilated along with all non-Tyranids willingly or not. An interesting tidbit is that the Hive Mind stops the Tyranids from attacking the cultists in early stages of the invasion and leads them on, only to later override the Genestealers' wills and and make them slaughter the cultists.

===Dungeons and Dragons===
* Among Dungeons and Dragons settings, [[Planescape]], [[Eberron]], and [[Pathfinder]] are notable for having some coherent things that could be called "Religions", rather then the usual generic Pantheism.
** Most of Planescape's Factions effectively count as religions, to the point they can produce [[Cleric]]s ([[Planescape: Torment#Fall-From-Grace|Atheist ones at that]]). Yes, even the Athar. (Perhaps ''especially'' the Athar.)
** Half of Eberron's religions aren't worship of deities. The [[Blood of Vol]] seeks to unlock the divinity within one's self and rejects the gods (if they even exist) and the [[Path of Inspiration]] seeks to improve their next reincarnation. The Undying Court worships not gods but their undead ancestors that make up their government. The [[Path of Light]], [[Warforged_Mysteries#The_Becoming_God|Becoming God]] and [[Warforged_Mysteries#The_Reforged|Reforged]] all seek to ''create'' a deity. Even some interpretations of the [[Sovereign Host]], like the one most common among dragons, don't worship them as deities. Due to the way divine casting works in Eberron, all of these can produce divine casters.
** There's a handful of religions on [[Golarion]] that aren't merely worship of pantheons. The most prominent (read: Actually has mechanical support) is the [[Prophecies of Kalistrade]], which is basically fantasy [[Star Trek|Ferengi]].

* [[D20 Modern]]'s [[Urban Arcana]], unusually for urban fantasy, has D&D deities bleed into reality alongside the monsters. You are still able to play a <s>cleric</s> "acolyte" of any real world deity despite this.

===Star Wars===
* [[Star Wars]] is inconsistent on if the [[The Force]] is a religion. The Jedi and the Sith ''could'' both be considered religions as they are considered monastic, but mix in several other traits such as being meritocratic (Jedi) and kraterocratic (Sith) and Lucas himself has axed at least one prototyped book for portraying them too much as a religion. It's also notable that the Sith were former Jedi who left the Jedi path for several reasons including [[Heresy|disagreements over the teachings of that creed]]. Aside from that, religion is nearly always a non-human tradition, something noted in a culture's historical background and never seen implying its extinction, or a scam. The religiously linked "damn" and "hell" are the two real world swear words that exist in-universe, purely because Han Solo used them in the films, and some concept of an "angel" exists because a young Anakin told Padme about them in the prequel trilogy films.
** There are rare exceptions where a religion is fleshed out and explored, and the writing goes various directions for better or worse. A notable example is the aggressive polytheistic religion of the antagonistic Yuuzhan Vong from the EU (which the story gradually revealed was long ago perverted from benevolent roots, and this perverted form takes a few cues from Islam and Aztec mythology).

===Star Trek===
* Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry had a low opinion of religion and in his vision humanity had done away with it and was better off for it and he had no interest in adding it to the aliens. However, some of the cast and crew disagreed and occasionally references and religions found their way into the show, which increased after Roddenberry's death. The Federation's culture is distinctly humanistic (extending the concept to alien species) in it's outlook in which religion is regarded as a thing of the past.
** While there are plenty of "Godlike" entities in Star Trek, almost all are treated as Sufficiently Advanced Aliens in the Arthur C. Clarke sense--and in particular, in ST:TNG, the flip side, that Picard and his crew are frequently shown to look like Gods to sufficiently primitive aliens, is gone into in more than one episode.
** The primary religion of the Federations main frenemies, the Klingons, is a deistic religion where a Klingon warrior killed their gods, and in their belief Klingons who live according to those tenants get to live in a pseudo-Valhalla.
** The Bajorans are a highly religious alien race, with the majority following peaceful teachings and a minority of violent extremists.
*** Of some note, the Bajoran religion is of interest because their "Gods" actually exist, and can be (somewhat incomprehensibly) talked to (a rarity outside of [[Science Fantasy]]). In other words, they were frequently a method of having some religion vs. science debates where the divine entity (A) explicitly exists, (B) is explainable as "sufficiently advanced and unusual aliens", and (C) aren't jerks, just bad at communication with those of us who experience time linearly--in other words, with a deck that wasn't quite as badly stacked. The religiosity was meant to be as a way of contrasting the Starfleet personnel with the native population and to draw a parallel between Bajorans under the Cardassian Occupation and various real world recently freed oppressed religious-slash-ethnic groups.
** <s>In the fifth Star Trek movie, ''"The Final Frontier"'', some of the crew steal the Enterprise to look for God and instead find a powerful alien being impersonating God in the center of the universe</s> '''Just like there is no live-action movie of Avatar: The Last Airbender, there is totally no Star Trek 5!'''

===World of Darkness===
* Very large books could be written about religion and [[World of Darkness]]/Chronicles of Darkness. We'll just cover a few highlights:
** From [[Vampire: The Requiem]], there's the the Lancea et Sanctum, which might be best described as "Christianity for Vampires", and the Circle of the Crone, which is "Pagan Vampires". Both have Vampire miracles on tap (pun intended).
** [[Hunter: The Vigil]] has various religious organizations among the Compacts and Conspiracies, some very similar to real world ones, others...not so much.
** [[Mage: The Ascension]] has various religious Traditions, portrayed in that highly-stereotypical and highly-depending-on-the-author way typical of old WoD.

==See also==
* [[Mythology]]
* [[True Faith]], a common mechanic to weaponize religion in [[Urban Fantasy]].

[[Category:Not related]]
[[Category:History]]

Religion

2020-10-09T04:18:38Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* List of Religions */

{{flamewar}}
{{topquote|Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge, which is power; religion gives man wisdom, which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals.|Martin Luther King, Jr}}

:'''Dracula''': ''I was called here by, huuuuumans, who wish to pay me tribute!''
:'''Richter Belmont''': ''Tribute?! You steal men's souls! And make them your slaves!''
:'''Dracula''': ''Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.''
::--An excerpt from the infamous exchange that also gave us "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets" in [[Castlevania#Castlevania:_Symphony_Of_The_Night_.28Castlevania_9.29|Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.]]

Because it's important to several settings and RPG systems, particularly ones that are high-profile or relevant to /tg/, we have a religion article. Let's try and keep it focused on the directly-related-to-/tg/ stuff and not descend into the pure [[skub]] that can arise in discussions of real-life religions, okay?

==Definition of Religion==
Almost since the inception of the term, scholars have failed to agree on a definition of religion. While there are some belief systems that always count as religions, some have applied the term to various things such as political ideologies, or groups when they reach a certain point. There are however two general definition systems: the sociological/functional and the phenomenological/philosophical.

The two most widely accepted are:
* "a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say things set apart and forbidden - beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a church, all those who adhere to them."
* "a comprehensive worldview or 'metaphysical moral vision' that is accepted as binding because it is held to be in itself basically true and just even if all dimensions of it cannot be either fully confirmed or refuted".

As stated before, one common element that every religion which fits the criteria has is humanity's relation to supernatural forces, as all of them have at least one [[God|god]] and/or an afterlife even where there are exceptions; Buddhism doesn't have any gods or its own idea of the cosmos' origins but has afterlives and the existence of the eternal soul (unless a persons achieves nirvana), and Taoism doesn't have an afterlife in the conventional sense but is pantheistic.

Like other terms for heavily [[SJW|debated]] [[communism|subjects]], religion and religious have also been used as insults or Snarl Words in social and political discussions (especially from the 20th century and onwards) to ridicule groups openly promoting something the user disagrees with. This snarl creates a caricature of the group to smear them by association with the worst excesses/negative stereotypes of religious people (like being preachy, judgmental, irrational, hypocritical).

==List of Real-Life Religions==

Too many to list, even without debates about the term. In lieu of a list on this site, here are two complied lists that should cover everything that fits the bill. Otherwise, check out the [[Mythology]] page.

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions Wikipedia's list of religions and spiritual traditions]
* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups For a simplified version from Wikipedia that focuses more on major religions]

==Religion vs. Mythology==
While [[Mythology|mythologies]] aren't religions in and of themselves, every religion has a mythology. While mythologies are merely the accounts of supernatural events, religions add rituals and practices that link those mythologies directly to the lives of their believers in one form or another, typically by describing how to properly serve to a god (or multiple gods, it depends) a significant role in the mythology a given religion is derived from. [[Skub|Whatever the source]], the mythology almost always predates the religion. As a result, especially since the Fantasy genre deals in supernatural beings and forces, most if not all fantasy settings have religions. Science fiction does to a lesser degree, mostly because during the Golden Age of sci-fi empiricists and secular humanists were attracted to the genre and their views often seeped into their stories. Despite this, given that most real-life societies have had religions playing a role in or since their founding, religions are still found in sci-fi.

Religions involves belief systems and practices, where an adherent can call upon the power/being the religion is focused on to give them aid in [[cleric|various]] [[Paladin|ways]], depending at the very least on the religion and the task in question. Given that religions are about people's place in the world, how it was made, ideas on how life should be lived and how humans should relate to the supernatural, they have major implications for societies. Given that people can become [[Exarch|dangerously single-minded]] about a cause, people can be become extremists about their religion, regardless of the fact that [[Heironeous|some]] are more benevolent than [[Asmodeus|others]] and in numerous cases even [[Heresy|if it involves going against the religion's teachings]]; in conjunction with the above this means religious conflicts can become widespread, long-lasting, cause carnage and also involve other elements such as politics- both in fantasy and in the real world.

==Role in Society==
A person's belief (for or against) any or all religions is a major factor in their worldview, and as such often serves as the undercurrent for all others. This is because this belief shapes people's views on the big things such as the purpose of life, how life should be lived in relation to oneself and others and what happens to people after they die. On the upside, this often leads to teachings with the goal of unity, peace, charity and co-operation as per the teachings of most religions, some of which are adapted by or also found among non-religious systems. On the downside, this can lead to clashes over how the people involved do the will of whichever beings or forces they follow, which religion should be followed or whether or not people should follow a god or religion at all. This can involve arguments and factionalizing, or in some cases worse things like pogroms and wars. Since they are an overarching and fairly common element in cultures, they often appear or are referenced in fiction.

The most common religious belief systems are the Abrahamic family of religions (primarily Judaism, Christianity and Islam) which are Monotheistic (belief in a singular God) and share many common elements and root, with - at the time this was written - Christianity being the most followed religion globally. Historically, these and other religions were frequently enshrined in law as the "state religion", giving them special privileges such as extensive influence over the government or tax exemptions. In some cases, they even took over the functions of the government entirely in a system known as theocracy; while uncommon in the present day, theocracies are still in use in places such as the Vatican and Iran.

Within the last few centuries, due to events such as the French Revolution, there has also been a significant amount of anti-religious sentiment, which regards religion as at best redundant and at worst destructive (beyond historical grievances with specific groups within religions, reasons for this view and whether or not those arguments have any merit, shall not be discussed here). For the most part, a combination of people identifying more with their culture or nation than their religion and the concept that religion and functions of state should not interfere with each other has turned into more of a "live and let live" mentality that doesn't really support or oppose any one religion and only reacts when said religions begin actively defying the state or the state starts bringing the boot down on religion.

Throughout history, numerous tyrannical regimes have tried to restrict or stamp out religions. This is usually because religious teachings put the figure/object of worship before the state in a conflict of interest and most religions' teachings condemn tyranny or [[Slaanesh|the vices tyrannical leaders indulge]]. Other reasons include tyrants dislike being answerable to anyone besides themselves and a tyrant may have some form of anti-religious prejudice. While nations have usually tried to block specific religions deemed "false" (read: religions opposing the state-sponsored religion in any way), several nations (usually [[Communism|Communist]] states which took Marx's "religion is the opiate of the masses" quote out of context as a call to arms rather than a passive theory) have tried to get rid of religion altogether, albeit with horrifying [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Militant_Atheists results] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge_rule_of_Cambodia#Religious_communities each] time. Best case scenario, they sidegrade from one set of problems to another as cults of personality (commonly ones based on the ruler in charge) spring up to exploit the newly created power vacuum while believers who survive the regime try to continue their activities in secret. Worst case scenario, the society and its population degenerates into [[Commorragh|a violent, fractious, and nihilistic shell of their former selves]].

Aside from the aforementioned theocracies, the most religious nations are countries such as Brazil in South America or Zambia in Africa (Zambia even has a state religion alongside a law that allows for freedom of religion). China is - at the time this was written - the world's least religious and most atheistic country (the situation around North Korea is [[Skub|debatable]], since even though they violently suppress religions [https://www.foxnews.com/world/north-korea-publicly-executes-80-some-for-videos-or-bibles-report-says to the point that merely having copies of religious texts can be grounds for execution], they also have the Kim Cult blended with the Marxist offshoot ideology Juche).

==How this impacts /tg/==
A few major ways. Since most if not every society in real-life has had religion either be the basis for its founding or play a role in it, religion is just as involved in the backstory or current lore of settings. There are three major "modes" of /tg/ settings and related fictions:
* Purely functional use of religion as a story device. (What we might call "Functionalists")
* Endorsement of religion and/or religious people. (What we might call "Religion is Good" types)
* Criticism of religion and/or religious people. (What we might call "Religion is Bad" types)
For ease of categorization, writers who use these modes will also be called proponents, detractors or functionalists (who can be pro, anti or neutral).

===Religion as a story device/Functionalists===
Compared to the two types of writers found below, these writers are usually just attempting to model their work after real-world [[Mythology]] and are frequently attempting to keep their views of Religion separate from their work. Frequently comes in one of two subspecies:
* The [[Standard Fantasy Setting]] default: The world is ruled by an ordinary polytheistic pantheon, usually close to some admixture of Norse and Greek mythologies. Some of them also have a Top God more powerful than all the others, and maybe the in-universe creator of everything who is mostly hands-off in cosmic affairs. The gods of these religions tend to focus on specific areas (gods of [[Paladin|Justice]] and [[Druid|Nature]] are common, for subtly obvious reasons) and frequently want their followers to propagate or promote these things.
* The kind of setting they wanted to make dictated the nature of the divine. For example, in [[Exalted]] just about all the figures anybody would call a "God" (besides the Exalted) are Useless, because the Exalted (which includes the Player Characters) are the guys who were made specifically to do whatever the gods needed them to do for reasons inherent to the setting, to go with the main theme of the setting for the PCs: "You can do '''almost anything''', except ''avoid the consequences of being the one who did that anything''".

===Religion as a Bad Thing/Detractors===
There are several writers of Science Fiction and Fantasy that are of the opinion "Religion Is Bad", often alongside having an axe to grind (sometimes warranted, sometimes not) with either one or more specific real-life religions. This is more common in Sci-Fi than fantasy because the focus on science appeals to the naturalist, empiricist and/or humanist worldview of such writers, with the supernatural being seen as an obstacle to that. Despite that, the view is found among some fantasy authors as well, such as the author of the book series "His Dark Materials", Philip Pullman (he wrote it as pushback against C.S Lewis' "Chronicles of Narnia" series). Whatever the genre, this comes in flavors of either "The Gods Don't Exist", "The Gods are Incompetent" (more on that below) or "The Gods are Evil". Cosmic Horror also tends to use the "Gods Don't Exist" or "Gods are Evil" route, or combine them into "The Gods are actually Incomprehensible and Destructive Aliens" (for example; the author who codified the genre, [[H.P. Lovecraft]], was an avowed anti-religious atheist - which is why cults are recurring villains in his stories). This also has the side effect of inclining science fiction towards an atheistic perspective.

Another major component is personal issues of the author such as grievance or prejudice, but that's case-by-case and a major can of worms. A writer could have resentment against a specific religion or even the higher power a religion reveres (though opposition to a god or gods is called anti-theistic, not anti-religious), and single them out in their works due to personal bias or agenda. Worst case scenario, the story is some sort of anti-religious wish fulfillment power fantasy - such as Frank Miller's "Holy Terror" comics against Islam and Garth Ennis' "Preacher" comics (and their live-action adaptation) against Christianity.

Whatever the motivation, writers saying this message either model their fictional religions on the - occasionally exaggerated - worst excesses of real world religious people or use a fictional religion as a (usually strawman) stand-in of a real one. The most frequently targeted religions are Christianity, Islam, any faith that practiced human sacrifice (such as the Aztec religious practices) and Scientology. Cults, especially those with beliefs that mainstream religions consider unorthodox or outright heretical, are especially fertile ground for this message, albeit running the risk of being misapplied to tar other groups with the same brush.

===Religion as a Good Thing/Proponents===
There are several Science Fiction and Fantasy writers who either are religious themselves and want to promote their worldview, look upon religion positively and put that into the story or both. This is more common in Fantasy than Sci-fi, partly because with the supernatural being THE fundamental element of the genre, this gives opportunities to explore many aspects of religiosity. This is less common in science-fiction, but not unheard of, such as Carl Sagan's novel "Contact" where God's signature is found in the digits of pi. These authors usually put more thought into their fictional religion plus its central figure (although they have a tendency to go all "Crystal Dragon Jesus"), and try and have it be at least a somewhat good influence, although religious institutions and leaders are usually hit-and-miss affairs.

Some people make a fictional setting with figures from real-world religions, either in the real-world or [[CS Lewis|an alternate world (such as Narnia)]]. Others use fictional religions that either visually resemble real-life religions or figures from them; religions that often get this treatment are the Abrahamic faiths (most often Christianity), Greek mythology, Egyptian mythology and Norse mythology (albeit often a sanitized version of the latter three). In other cases they all but abandon any form of subtlety, with the fictional religion being distinguished from the real-world religion the author follows by only a handful of minor changes. Naturally, those kinds of works tend to come off as preachy, to say the least.

Another route this uses is the route that faith itself provides the power as per "[[Belief Function|Belief Function]]" (think Morpheus' "your mind makes it real" quote, but applying at the cosmological level). In fact, Warhammer often goes the route that the gods are powered by faith as well as from their sphere of influence which has either [[Sigmar|caused some people have risen to godhood]] or [[Ynnead|caused new gods to be born in the setting]]. In fact, this has proven the greatest weapon against Chaos in every Warhammer setting (and why the Emperor's plan to starve the Chaos Gods with atheism was doomed to fail from the start).

===Somewhat special cases===

One somewhat special case is the "Religion of Evil"; in many settings, there is a religion that is explicitly capital E Evil and seeks one of the usual "Card Carrying Villain" goals of Control, Conquest, Corruption, or Destruction. Frequently has some admixture of the worst aspects of Roman Paganism, Norse practices, the Aztec, Scientology and/or the various Abrahamic religions. They also often draw from those found in the writings of H.P Lovecraft. If this cult directly worships an individual Evil God, expect whatever makes sense for that deity to be some form of destructive activity--e.g., the cult of the God of Murder demands human sacrifice on a regular basis, with a certain portion of that explicitly being not-careful-enough cultists. Regardless, Religions of Evil can show up in all three above modes, and usually has a special purpose in all three:

* All three types need bad guys. In particular, a group who by definition is Evil is always good for some no-need-to-worry-about-the-ethics-or-morality-of-killing fodder (based on the idea that everyone in is group is evil because you have to do evil to be part of the group).
* Religion is Bad types tend to use them to say either "while they're all Bad, some are worse then others", that "Religion can be used to justify anything", use it as a strawman to tar all with the same brush or they have a specific personal grudge (either against an entire religion, a group within that religion or specific individual adherents).
* Religion is Good types or the sincerely religious tend to use them as analogies with fanaticism, criticize Real World cults, compare different beliefs or deal with negative aspects of religion (occasionally making jabs at competitive religions, or fellow believers the author disagrees with). Another approach is to have a Religion of Good fighting against a Religion of Evil - either as the heroes of the story or a valued ally - to say "there is good religion, so don't tar all with the same negative brush".
** As a side note, a lot of fantasy has moved slightly away from pure Religions of Evil, for much the same reason as [[Always Chaotic Evil]] races (questions of whether this fosters prejudice against real-life groups and audiences and authors demanding more motive for their villains). While there are still plenty of them, they usually add some nuance that makes them at least morally neutral under their own lights. Popular options are for them to be an off-shoot/subset of another religion and/or be taking vengeance for an injustice (real or perceived, both of which have '''plenty''' of real-life precedent).

[[Urban Fantasy]] writers are another special case, since almost all Urban Fantasy is set in something that might be called "the real world with a twist", with all the usual political trouble that implies. As a result, they can take one of a few routes:
* The most common route is "there are many possible explanations" and vague things up as much as possible ([[True Faith|Faith]] being the power that repels [[Vampire]]s rather than than a cross having any actual connection to a deity is a popular one).
* The second most common route (albeit rarer outside of Cosmic Horror) is the "Religion as a Bad Thing" route; the story is straight up atheistic/"Religion is Bad" [[Imperial Truth|propaganda]] where the writer often has an axe to grind against a specific religion. It's a popular choice for writers trying to be [[Edgy]] who want to include religious subject matter in their stories, and they almost exclusively go after the most established religion in the area or any new cults that have emerged at the time. On that note, any fictional religions or cults are most likely thinly-veiled stand-ins for real life ones.
* Some Urban Fantasy works with a clear correct religion exist thanks to the above mentioned sincerely religious authors, which are typically [[Chick Tracts|barely veiled proselytizing]] or [[Twilight|just straight up terrible]], though [[Monster Hunter International|there are some good ones]].
* The fourth route, taken most notably by [[Supers|DC and Marvel comics]] among others, is to take an "All Myths are True" approach: All religions are sort of true, but none have any exclusivity to the Truth, so Thor and Athena might have the Archangel Michael on speeddial when the Orochi teams up with Apep to get up to no good and start making trouble in their neighborhoods (because "Mikey really likes kicking serpent tail, and gets annoyed when we don't at least try to invite him to an evil serpent ass-kicking."). Differs from the "vague things up" route by being clearer on some details, and also much more gonzo. The Abrahamic God is the exception here: He's usually kept especially vague, albeit more powerful (and yet infinitely less accessible) than anyone else in the setting, and only referred to by some codephrase (Marvel likes "The One Above All", DC generally goes for "The Presence" or "whatever is behind the Source Wall").

===Miscellaneous Observations===

Doing the "The Gods are Incompetent" thing (the similar but different "The Gods are Insane", "The Gods Are Assholes" and "The Gods Don't Actually Do Anything" routes also falls under this umbrella) can go into any of the three modes; in a sincere monotheist's (such as Christian) work, it can be a "Take That" to polytheistic religions; in a "Religion is Bad" atheist's, it can be one to religion in general; in a Buddhist-influenced work, it can be a part of the whole "even the Gods are tied up in the Wheel of Karma" concept; and, even if the author is not pushing any religious message in any way, there's a neutral, plot-structural reason to go "Incompetent Gods": it can make the adventurers the Most Competent People Available since if that wasn't the case there wouldn't be anything for the adventurers to do.

If a work has multiple writers, (as frequently happens with RPG and Wargame settings, and quite a few popular SciFi/Fantasy ones as well) there's a tendency for the writers to try and pull the setting into one of the other two "modes" depending on their personal views. This leads to the theme changing from one side to the other as the story progresses. A recent example is [[World of Warcraft|the spate of retcons to the cosmology of the Warcraft universe]] and the morality of its fundamental forces/dominant higher powers, the Light and the Void. If the story doesn't get focused on a pro-religion or anti-religion message, it may end up swinging back and forth between both sides or settle in a mid-point which doesn't take a strong stance either way.

Note that members of the "Religion is Bad" and "Religion is Good" brigades will get involved in arguments over the relative morality or "goodness" of various factions in the story and the accuracy of any messages a writer presents. Often history buffs will throw their hat into the ring as well.

==Examples of /tg/ connected fictional religions==
===Warhammer 40k===
* The [[Imperial Truth]] was originally the Emperor's plan on beliefs, which he and his servants propagated throughout the galaxy during the Great Crusade. Attempting to wean mankind away from Chaos and being a firm member of the "Religion is Bad" brigade, the Emperor proclaimed there are no gods, and religion had to be abolished willingly or by force while science or reason are to be used for explaining the universe and morality. Everything transpired according to his design, except theistic religiosity in the 40k universe is the best weapon against Chaos so Emps' interstellar state atheism policy gave them a major opening. Things went from bad to worse when people started looking up to the Emperor as a god himself, [[Exterminatus|he responded accordingly]], and the Chaos Gods got a new tool in the form of [[Lorgar]]. After the Horus Heresy and the Emperor's removal from galactic politics: the Imperial Truth was slowly shelved in favor of the Imperial Cult, to the point that espousing the teachings of the Truth is ironically considered heresy. Only a few practitioners of the Imperial Truth remain, most notably the Custodes and the Space Marines (both of whom know The Emperor better than anybody to worship him as a god. Plus, their religious autonomy.).
** The [[Imperial Cult]] is the present-day religion of the Imperium of Man, and is a mix of several Abrahamic Religions along with copious amounts of warmongering, fanaticism and xenophobia. Derived from the Lectitio Divinatus penned by [[Lorgar]] pre-HH, the Cult decrees that because the Emperor is capable of all these miracles and power: he ''must'' be a god, and why you should worship and pledge loyalty to him. Its a complete 180 from the Emperor's original teachings, and has simultaneously been responsible for damning and saving the Imperium past the clusterfuck of the Horus Heresy. It's unknown whether the Emperor still abhors godhood and religion and would abolish it the moment he could, or if he's resigned himself to becoming the very thing he fought against for mankind to persevere in these trying times. Whatever the case, he didn't want to be a god, but now he has no choice but to become one.
** The [[Adeptus Mechanicus|Cult Mechanicus]] (Machine Cult) is the religion of the Adeptus Mechanicus, placing a heavy emphasis on machines, viewing them as gifts from the Machine God called "The Omnissiah" Officially, the Omnissiah is The Emperor, which allows the Mechanicus to sidestep the more puritan pundits of the Imperial Cult (we worship The Emprah, just not how you do it). Unofficially, the Omnissiah may or may not be the C'tan god: The Void Dragon. It also has a high emphasis on the collection of knowledge, and one of the Admech's roles in the galaxy is to explore remote and uncharted regions of space to find and search for knowledge that has been lost throughout the millennia. The last of these, is guidelines on machines and knowledge. Officially, heretic(tek) and xeno works are to be abhorred and disposed of, viewing them as perversions of the holy Machine God's works. Unofficially however, more liberally-minded and higher-ranked Magos would happily hoard heretek/xeno works, seeing their potential over the more restricted and constrained works of the Mechanicus.

* Chaos is a violent and complicated henotheistic (believing in multiple gods but only worshipping one) or polytheistic religion with dozens, if not hundreds of interpretations. Even then, there's more sub-cults that worship their particular god in a specific way, either minutely or vastly different from everyone else among followers of the Big 4. And this doesn't even get into the realm of Chaos Undivided (which worships the concept of Chaos itself, instead of the individual gods) and [[Malal]]. Chaos has very little established guidelines regarding worship, apart from their patron god's/gods' general likes/dislikes, so any religious practices or rituals are either based on commands from the god/s or up to the imagination of the cult.
** Interestingly, there is a Space Marine of the Chaos faction who follows the Imperial Truth, and that is [[Fabius Bile]].

* All Greenskins worship Gork and Mork (jury's out on whether the [[Gretchin Revolutionary Committee]] do), but are too disorganized to have anything like a formal religion, though they do make effigies of Gork and Mork and call on them. The closest thing they have to tenants is that Gork favors violence, Mork favors cunning. Greenskins have gotten into fights over this, but violence is part of their nature and that of their gods. While they fight over religion, they also fight over almost any dispute anyway, and may even start a religious argument just to enjoy a good fight among themselves (though the only theological argument they can formulate is "is Gork the god of cunning or is Mork?" or vica versa). On the surface, religion does not play a big-enough role in Ork society compared to other races, being just another outlet for Orks to fight about. But if [[Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka|Ghazghkull]] is any indication: religion can have a great impact on Orks, with him being becoming one of the greatest Warlords in the galaxy, primarily because he thinks he's personally blessed by Gork and Mork themselves. So if you throw in the Orks' gestalt field into the mix, its likely that its not that religion doesn't matter to them, it's under-utilized.

* The Tau's creed "The [[Greater Good]]" is a specie-wide philosophy that was adopted ever since the initial unification of the Tau in the olden days. In a nutshell, the Greater Good emphasizes the co-existence of all Tau and sapient life in general into working together for a common goal to further the Tau's progress, seeing everyone's potential and hoping to utilize that for an, ahem, greater good. Personal religion isn't forbidden, but it must not contradict or override The Greater Good, and must be disregarded if it ever does so. Technically, this means Tau can be religious or non-religious, as the Greater Good is not a religion (due to lacking an afterlife and supernatural aspects, with the closest things to figures of worship being the Ethereals). This sounds all fine and dandy, but the Ethereal class, who are responsible for maintaining The Greater Good, have been shown to be less benevolent than believed and have been using their unnaturally powerful charisma to subtly oppress the Tau and use them to further their own agendas.
**The Farsight Enclaves, who have thrown off Ethereal rule, are the exception in that they have rejected The Greater Good, seeing it as the method of oppression used to keep the T'au under complete control of the ethereals. Due to this, if one considers the Greater Good a religion, The Enclaves are irreligious.
**As of the 4th Sphere Expansion disaster, Chaos Tau are starting to become a thing.
**At one point, the Earth Caste gathered Genestealer-infected Tau and studied them to see what would happen. Of course, a Genestealer cult developed and naturally they violently escaped control and surveillance. According to rumors, they've even produced a Genestealer-infected Ethereal.

* The Eldar have varying views on religiosity depending on their type. Their religion is polytheistic, with henotheistic offshoots, and Ausryan was the highest ranking god. However all of the Eldar gods were murder-raped to death by Slaanesh except for Isha (taken by Nurgle), Khaine (shattered and flung into realspace), Cegorach (hiding in the Webway) and Ynnead (born long after Slaanesh's birth). Their Pantheon's religious practices aren't fleshed out save for those of Cegorach, Isha, and Khaine, via the Harlequins and Aspect Warriors. With most of their gods out of commission, Eldar religious worship is of a deistic bent.
** Craftworlders and Exodites almost exclusively worship the original Eldar pantheon, though some engage in henotheistic worship of only one of the gods. Asuryan is more popular among Craftworlders while Isha is among Exodites, though nearly all give Khaine some tribute during war.
** Corsairs are all over the place, though Khaine is a popular choice given their more militant nature.
** Being agents of the Laughing God himself, the Harlequins' worship is centered around [[Cegorach]], whilst still paying minor tribute to the other gods.
** The new faith around Ynnead, the Ynnari, is rapidly growing but have yet to establish teachings or rituals.
** Unique among the Eldar, the Dark Eldar are irreligious for the most part and while they believe some gods exist they're too self-centered to worship them (this is canon). They're often also anti-religious to boot; a major landmark of Commorragh is a landfill of religious icons called Iconoclast's Mound, and one Wych cult - the Pain Eternal - revolves around killing religious people and destroying shrines and holy sites. The sole exception, except for Dark Eldar who stop being Dark Eldar, are the [[Incubi]] who hold [[Khaine]] in high regard.
** The Ynnari have encountered atleast one ancient Craftworld that turned into an entire Genestealer cult in a misguided attempt to avoid getting their souls consumed by Slaanesh as their ship had no infinity circuit present. We're not sure if this worked to any capacity (if at all, given the Hive Mind does not absorb souls), but they were taken down by the Ynnari for obvious reasons.
** There are numerous rumors of a very small number of Chaos Eldar, but these are barely fleshed out and heavily classified in-universe. There have been verified Nurgle-worshipping Eldar and persistent rumors that some have embraced Slaanesh without becoming soul-food. Apart from this, some Dark Eldar have been willing to summon Chaos Daemons or work with Chaos worshippers ([[Fabius Bile|or allies of Chaos]]) to further their own ends.

* While the Necrontyr had religions before certain [[C'tan|star entities]] [[Necrons|roboticizied them]], those aren't fleshed out or detailed. Its also heavily implied the C'tan co-opted the Necrontyr religion beforehand. With the change to Necrons taking the higher though processes of most of them, any Necrons who can comprehend faith and religiosity either worship the C'tan or have become irreligious.

* The Tyranids themselves are irreligious, being spehss bugs and all, but understand at least a few of the advantages of religion. [[Genestealer]]s infect people and together they establish cults on targeted worlds, such as one worshipping "Children of the Stars", a perversion of the Imperial Cult (such as one that worships a [[Swarmlord|four-armed]] version of the Emperor) or something else like "Celebrants of Nihilism" (yes, that's a canon Genestealer cult name). Psychic influence is often involved and, notably, the Genestealers do not consider themselves gods. Once the Tyranids arrive en-masse, the cult-gets assimilated along with all non-Tyranids willingly or not. An interesting tidbit is that the Hive Mind stops the Tyranids from attacking the cultists in early stages of the invasion and leads them on, only to later override the Genestealers' wills and and make them slaughter the cultists.

===Dungeons and Dragons===
* Among Dungeons and Dragons settings, [[Planescape]], [[Eberron]], and [[Pathfinder]] are notable for having some coherent things that could be called "Religions", rather then the usual generic Pantheism.
** Most of Planescape's Factions effectively count as religions, to the point they can produce [[Cleric]]s ([[Planescape: Torment#Fall-From-Grace|Atheist ones at that]]). Yes, even the Athar. (Perhaps ''especially'' the Athar.)
** Half of Eberron's religions aren't worship of deities. The [[Blood of Vol]] seeks to unlock the divinity within one's self and rejects the gods (if they even exist) and the [[Path of Inspiration]] seeks to improve their next reincarnation. The Undying Court worships not gods but their undead ancestors that make up their government. The [[Path of Light]], [[Warforged_Mysteries#The_Becoming_God|Becoming God]] and [[Warforged_Mysteries#The_Reforged|Reforged]] all seek to ''create'' a deity. Even some interpretations of the [[Sovereign Host]], like the one most common among dragons, don't worship them as deities. Due to the way divine casting works in Eberron, all of these can produce divine casters.
** There's a handful of religions on [[Golarion]] that aren't merely worship of pantheons. The most prominent (read: Actually has mechanical support) is the [[Prophecies of Kalistrade]], which is basically fantasy [[Star Trek|Ferengi]].

* [[D20 Modern]]'s [[Urban Arcana]], unusually for urban fantasy, has D&D deities bleed into reality alongside the monsters. You are still able to play a <s>cleric</s> "acolyte" of any real world deity despite this.

===Star Wars===
* [[Star Wars]] is inconsistent on if the [[The Force]] is a religion. The Jedi and the Sith ''could'' both be considered religions as they are considered monastic, but mix in several other traits such as being meritocratic (Jedi) and kraterocratic (Sith) and Lucas himself has axed at least one prototyped book for portraying them too much as a religion. It's also notable that the Sith were former Jedi who left the Jedi path for several reasons including [[Heresy|disagreements over the teachings of that creed]]. Aside from that, religion is nearly always a non-human tradition, something noted in a culture's historical background and never seen implying its extinction, or a scam. The religiously linked "damn" and "hell" are the two real world swear words that exist in-universe, purely because Han Solo used them in the films, and some concept of an "angel" exists because a young Anakin told Padme about them in the prequel trilogy films.
** There are rare exceptions where a religion is fleshed out and explored, and the writing goes various directions for better or worse. A notable example is the aggressive polytheistic religion of the antagonistic Yuuzhan Vong from the EU (which the story gradually revealed was long ago perverted from benevolent roots, and this perverted form takes a few cues from Islam and Aztec mythology).

===Star Trek===
* Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry had a low opinion of religion and in his vision humanity had done away with it and was better off for it and he had no interest in adding it to the aliens. However, some of the cast and crew disagreed and occasionally references and religions found their way into the show, which increased after Roddenberry's death. The Federation's culture is distinctly humanistic (extending the concept to alien species) in it's outlook in which religion is regarded as a thing of the past.
** While there are plenty of "Godlike" entities in Star Trek, almost all are treated as Sufficiently Advanced Aliens in the Arthur C. Clarke sense--and in particular, in ST:TNG, the flip side, that Picard and his crew are frequently shown to look like Gods to sufficiently primitive aliens, is gone into in more than one episode.
** The primary religion of the Federations main frenemies, the Klingons, is a deistic religion where a Klingon warrior killed their gods, and in their belief Klingons who live according to those tenants get to live in a pseudo-Valhalla.
** The Bajorans are a highly religious alien race, with the majority following peaceful teachings and a minority of violent extremists.
*** Of some note, the Bajoran religion is of interest because their "Gods" actually exist, and can be (somewhat incomprehensibly) talked to (a rarity outside of [[Science Fantasy]]). In other words, they were frequently a method of having some religion vs. science debates where the divine entity (A) explicitly exists, (B) is explainable as "sufficiently advanced and unusual aliens", and (C) aren't jerks, just bad at communication with those of us who experience time linearly--in other words, with a deck that wasn't quite as badly stacked. The religiosity was meant to be as a way of contrasting the Starfleet personnel with the native population and to draw a parallel between Bajorans under the Cardassian Occupation and various real world recently freed oppressed religious-slash-ethnic groups.
** <s>In the fifth Star Trek movie, ''"The Final Frontier"'', some of the crew steal the Enterprise to look for God and instead find a powerful alien being impersonating God in the center of the universe</s> '''Just like there is no live-action movie of Avatar: The Last Airbender, there is totally no Star Trek 5!'''

===World of Darkness===
* Very large books could be written about religion and [[World of Darkness]]/Chronicles of Darkness. We'll just cover a few highlights:
** From [[Vampire: The Requiem]], there's the the Lancea et Sanctum, which might be best described as "Christianity for Vampires", and the Circle of the Crone, which is "Pagan Vampires". Both have Vampire miracles on tap (pun intended).
** [[Hunter: The Vigil]] has various religious organizations among the Compacts and Conspiracies, some very similar to real world ones, others...not so much.
** [[Mage: The Ascension]] has various religious Traditions, portrayed in that highly-stereotypical and highly-depending-on-the-author way typical of old WoD.

==See also==
* [[Mythology]]
* [[True Faith]], a common mechanic to weaponize religion in [[Urban Fantasy]].

[[Category:Not related]]
[[Category:History]]

Religion

2020-10-09T04:18:21Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* List of Religions */

{{flamewar}}
{{topquote|Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge, which is power; religion gives man wisdom, which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals.|Martin Luther King, Jr}}

:'''Dracula''': ''I was called here by, huuuuumans, who wish to pay me tribute!''
:'''Richter Belmont''': ''Tribute?! You steal men's souls! And make them your slaves!''
:'''Dracula''': ''Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.''
::--An excerpt from the infamous exchange that also gave us "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets" in [[Castlevania#Castlevania:_Symphony_Of_The_Night_.28Castlevania_9.29|Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.]]

Because it's important to several settings and RPG systems, particularly ones that are high-profile or relevant to /tg/, we have a religion article. Let's try and keep it focused on the directly-related-to-/tg/ stuff and not descend into the pure [[skub]] that can arise in discussions of real-life religions, okay?

==Definition of Religion==
Almost since the inception of the term, scholars have failed to agree on a definition of religion. While there are some belief systems that always count as religions, some have applied the term to various things such as political ideologies, or groups when they reach a certain point. There are however two general definition systems: the sociological/functional and the phenomenological/philosophical.

The two most widely accepted are:
* "a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say things set apart and forbidden - beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a church, all those who adhere to them."
* "a comprehensive worldview or 'metaphysical moral vision' that is accepted as binding because it is held to be in itself basically true and just even if all dimensions of it cannot be either fully confirmed or refuted".

As stated before, one common element that every religion which fits the criteria has is humanity's relation to supernatural forces, as all of them have at least one [[God|god]] and/or an afterlife even where there are exceptions; Buddhism doesn't have any gods or its own idea of the cosmos' origins but has afterlives and the existence of the eternal soul (unless a persons achieves nirvana), and Taoism doesn't have an afterlife in the conventional sense but is pantheistic.

Like other terms for heavily [[SJW|debated]] [[communism|subjects]], religion and religious have also been used as insults or Snarl Words in social and political discussions (especially from the 20th century and onwards) to ridicule groups openly promoting something the user disagrees with. This snarl creates a caricature of the group to smear them by association with the worst excesses/negative stereotypes of religious people (like being preachy, judgmental, irrational, hypocritical).

==List of Religions==

Too many to list, even without debates about the term. In lieu of a list on this site, here are two complied lists that should cover everything that fits the bill. Otherwise, check out the [[Mythology]] page.

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions Wikipedia's list of religions and spiritual traditions]
* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups For a simplified version from Wikipedia that focuses more on major religions]

==Religion vs. Mythology==
While [[Mythology|mythologies]] aren't religions in and of themselves, every religion has a mythology. While mythologies are merely the accounts of supernatural events, religions add rituals and practices that link those mythologies directly to the lives of their believers in one form or another, typically by describing how to properly serve to a god (or multiple gods, it depends) a significant role in the mythology a given religion is derived from. [[Skub|Whatever the source]], the mythology almost always predates the religion. As a result, especially since the Fantasy genre deals in supernatural beings and forces, most if not all fantasy settings have religions. Science fiction does to a lesser degree, mostly because during the Golden Age of sci-fi empiricists and secular humanists were attracted to the genre and their views often seeped into their stories. Despite this, given that most real-life societies have had religions playing a role in or since their founding, religions are still found in sci-fi.

Religions involves belief systems and practices, where an adherent can call upon the power/being the religion is focused on to give them aid in [[cleric|various]] [[Paladin|ways]], depending at the very least on the religion and the task in question. Given that religions are about people's place in the world, how it was made, ideas on how life should be lived and how humans should relate to the supernatural, they have major implications for societies. Given that people can become [[Exarch|dangerously single-minded]] about a cause, people can be become extremists about their religion, regardless of the fact that [[Heironeous|some]] are more benevolent than [[Asmodeus|others]] and in numerous cases even [[Heresy|if it involves going against the religion's teachings]]; in conjunction with the above this means religious conflicts can become widespread, long-lasting, cause carnage and also involve other elements such as politics- both in fantasy and in the real world.

==Role in Society==
A person's belief (for or against) any or all religions is a major factor in their worldview, and as such often serves as the undercurrent for all others. This is because this belief shapes people's views on the big things such as the purpose of life, how life should be lived in relation to oneself and others and what happens to people after they die. On the upside, this often leads to teachings with the goal of unity, peace, charity and co-operation as per the teachings of most religions, some of which are adapted by or also found among non-religious systems. On the downside, this can lead to clashes over how the people involved do the will of whichever beings or forces they follow, which religion should be followed or whether or not people should follow a god or religion at all. This can involve arguments and factionalizing, or in some cases worse things like pogroms and wars. Since they are an overarching and fairly common element in cultures, they often appear or are referenced in fiction.

The most common religious belief systems are the Abrahamic family of religions (primarily Judaism, Christianity and Islam) which are Monotheistic (belief in a singular God) and share many common elements and root, with - at the time this was written - Christianity being the most followed religion globally. Historically, these and other religions were frequently enshrined in law as the "state religion", giving them special privileges such as extensive influence over the government or tax exemptions. In some cases, they even took over the functions of the government entirely in a system known as theocracy; while uncommon in the present day, theocracies are still in use in places such as the Vatican and Iran.

Within the last few centuries, due to events such as the French Revolution, there has also been a significant amount of anti-religious sentiment, which regards religion as at best redundant and at worst destructive (beyond historical grievances with specific groups within religions, reasons for this view and whether or not those arguments have any merit, shall not be discussed here). For the most part, a combination of people identifying more with their culture or nation than their religion and the concept that religion and functions of state should not interfere with each other has turned into more of a "live and let live" mentality that doesn't really support or oppose any one religion and only reacts when said religions begin actively defying the state or the state starts bringing the boot down on religion.

Throughout history, numerous tyrannical regimes have tried to restrict or stamp out religions. This is usually because religious teachings put the figure/object of worship before the state in a conflict of interest and most religions' teachings condemn tyranny or [[Slaanesh|the vices tyrannical leaders indulge]]. Other reasons include tyrants dislike being answerable to anyone besides themselves and a tyrant may have some form of anti-religious prejudice. While nations have usually tried to block specific religions deemed "false" (read: religions opposing the state-sponsored religion in any way), several nations (usually [[Communism|Communist]] states which took Marx's "religion is the opiate of the masses" quote out of context as a call to arms rather than a passive theory) have tried to get rid of religion altogether, albeit with horrifying [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Militant_Atheists results] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge_rule_of_Cambodia#Religious_communities each] time. Best case scenario, they sidegrade from one set of problems to another as cults of personality (commonly ones based on the ruler in charge) spring up to exploit the newly created power vacuum while believers who survive the regime try to continue their activities in secret. Worst case scenario, the society and its population degenerates into [[Commorragh|a violent, fractious, and nihilistic shell of their former selves]].

Aside from the aforementioned theocracies, the most religious nations are countries such as Brazil in South America or Zambia in Africa (Zambia even has a state religion alongside a law that allows for freedom of religion). China is - at the time this was written - the world's least religious and most atheistic country (the situation around North Korea is [[Skub|debatable]], since even though they violently suppress religions [https://www.foxnews.com/world/north-korea-publicly-executes-80-some-for-videos-or-bibles-report-says to the point that merely having copies of religious texts can be grounds for execution], they also have the Kim Cult blended with the Marxist offshoot ideology Juche).

==How this impacts /tg/==
A few major ways. Since most if not every society in real-life has had religion either be the basis for its founding or play a role in it, religion is just as involved in the backstory or current lore of settings. There are three major "modes" of /tg/ settings and related fictions:
* Purely functional use of religion as a story device. (What we might call "Functionalists")
* Endorsement of religion and/or religious people. (What we might call "Religion is Good" types)
* Criticism of religion and/or religious people. (What we might call "Religion is Bad" types)
For ease of categorization, writers who use these modes will also be called proponents, detractors or functionalists (who can be pro, anti or neutral).

===Religion as a story device/Functionalists===
Compared to the two types of writers found below, these writers are usually just attempting to model their work after real-world [[Mythology]] and are frequently attempting to keep their views of Religion separate from their work. Frequently comes in one of two subspecies:
* The [[Standard Fantasy Setting]] default: The world is ruled by an ordinary polytheistic pantheon, usually close to some admixture of Norse and Greek mythologies. Some of them also have a Top God more powerful than all the others, and maybe the in-universe creator of everything who is mostly hands-off in cosmic affairs. The gods of these religions tend to focus on specific areas (gods of [[Paladin|Justice]] and [[Druid|Nature]] are common, for subtly obvious reasons) and frequently want their followers to propagate or promote these things.
* The kind of setting they wanted to make dictated the nature of the divine. For example, in [[Exalted]] just about all the figures anybody would call a "God" (besides the Exalted) are Useless, because the Exalted (which includes the Player Characters) are the guys who were made specifically to do whatever the gods needed them to do for reasons inherent to the setting, to go with the main theme of the setting for the PCs: "You can do '''almost anything''', except ''avoid the consequences of being the one who did that anything''".

===Religion as a Bad Thing/Detractors===
There are several writers of Science Fiction and Fantasy that are of the opinion "Religion Is Bad", often alongside having an axe to grind (sometimes warranted, sometimes not) with either one or more specific real-life religions. This is more common in Sci-Fi than fantasy because the focus on science appeals to the naturalist, empiricist and/or humanist worldview of such writers, with the supernatural being seen as an obstacle to that. Despite that, the view is found among some fantasy authors as well, such as the author of the book series "His Dark Materials", Philip Pullman (he wrote it as pushback against C.S Lewis' "Chronicles of Narnia" series). Whatever the genre, this comes in flavors of either "The Gods Don't Exist", "The Gods are Incompetent" (more on that below) or "The Gods are Evil". Cosmic Horror also tends to use the "Gods Don't Exist" or "Gods are Evil" route, or combine them into "The Gods are actually Incomprehensible and Destructive Aliens" (for example; the author who codified the genre, [[H.P. Lovecraft]], was an avowed anti-religious atheist - which is why cults are recurring villains in his stories). This also has the side effect of inclining science fiction towards an atheistic perspective.

Another major component is personal issues of the author such as grievance or prejudice, but that's case-by-case and a major can of worms. A writer could have resentment against a specific religion or even the higher power a religion reveres (though opposition to a god or gods is called anti-theistic, not anti-religious), and single them out in their works due to personal bias or agenda. Worst case scenario, the story is some sort of anti-religious wish fulfillment power fantasy - such as Frank Miller's "Holy Terror" comics against Islam and Garth Ennis' "Preacher" comics (and their live-action adaptation) against Christianity.

Whatever the motivation, writers saying this message either model their fictional religions on the - occasionally exaggerated - worst excesses of real world religious people or use a fictional religion as a (usually strawman) stand-in of a real one. The most frequently targeted religions are Christianity, Islam, any faith that practiced human sacrifice (such as the Aztec religious practices) and Scientology. Cults, especially those with beliefs that mainstream religions consider unorthodox or outright heretical, are especially fertile ground for this message, albeit running the risk of being misapplied to tar other groups with the same brush.

===Religion as a Good Thing/Proponents===
There are several Science Fiction and Fantasy writers who either are religious themselves and want to promote their worldview, look upon religion positively and put that into the story or both. This is more common in Fantasy than Sci-fi, partly because with the supernatural being THE fundamental element of the genre, this gives opportunities to explore many aspects of religiosity. This is less common in science-fiction, but not unheard of, such as Carl Sagan's novel "Contact" where God's signature is found in the digits of pi. These authors usually put more thought into their fictional religion plus its central figure (although they have a tendency to go all "Crystal Dragon Jesus"), and try and have it be at least a somewhat good influence, although religious institutions and leaders are usually hit-and-miss affairs.

Some people make a fictional setting with figures from real-world religions, either in the real-world or [[CS Lewis|an alternate world (such as Narnia)]]. Others use fictional religions that either visually resemble real-life religions or figures from them; religions that often get this treatment are the Abrahamic faiths (most often Christianity), Greek mythology, Egyptian mythology and Norse mythology (albeit often a sanitized version of the latter three). In other cases they all but abandon any form of subtlety, with the fictional religion being distinguished from the real-world religion the author follows by only a handful of minor changes. Naturally, those kinds of works tend to come off as preachy, to say the least.

Another route this uses is the route that faith itself provides the power as per "[[Belief Function|Belief Function]]" (think Morpheus' "your mind makes it real" quote, but applying at the cosmological level). In fact, Warhammer often goes the route that the gods are powered by faith as well as from their sphere of influence which has either [[Sigmar|caused some people have risen to godhood]] or [[Ynnead|caused new gods to be born in the setting]]. In fact, this has proven the greatest weapon against Chaos in every Warhammer setting (and why the Emperor's plan to starve the Chaos Gods with atheism was doomed to fail from the start).

===Somewhat special cases===

One somewhat special case is the "Religion of Evil"; in many settings, there is a religion that is explicitly capital E Evil and seeks one of the usual "Card Carrying Villain" goals of Control, Conquest, Corruption, or Destruction. Frequently has some admixture of the worst aspects of Roman Paganism, Norse practices, the Aztec, Scientology and/or the various Abrahamic religions. They also often draw from those found in the writings of H.P Lovecraft. If this cult directly worships an individual Evil God, expect whatever makes sense for that deity to be some form of destructive activity--e.g., the cult of the God of Murder demands human sacrifice on a regular basis, with a certain portion of that explicitly being not-careful-enough cultists. Regardless, Religions of Evil can show up in all three above modes, and usually has a special purpose in all three:

* All three types need bad guys. In particular, a group who by definition is Evil is always good for some no-need-to-worry-about-the-ethics-or-morality-of-killing fodder (based on the idea that everyone in is group is evil because you have to do evil to be part of the group).
* Religion is Bad types tend to use them to say either "while they're all Bad, some are worse then others", that "Religion can be used to justify anything", use it as a strawman to tar all with the same brush or they have a specific personal grudge (either against an entire religion, a group within that religion or specific individual adherents).
* Religion is Good types or the sincerely religious tend to use them as analogies with fanaticism, criticize Real World cults, compare different beliefs or deal with negative aspects of religion (occasionally making jabs at competitive religions, or fellow believers the author disagrees with). Another approach is to have a Religion of Good fighting against a Religion of Evil - either as the heroes of the story or a valued ally - to say "there is good religion, so don't tar all with the same negative brush".
** As a side note, a lot of fantasy has moved slightly away from pure Religions of Evil, for much the same reason as [[Always Chaotic Evil]] races (questions of whether this fosters prejudice against real-life groups and audiences and authors demanding more motive for their villains). While there are still plenty of them, they usually add some nuance that makes them at least morally neutral under their own lights. Popular options are for them to be an off-shoot/subset of another religion and/or be taking vengeance for an injustice (real or perceived, both of which have '''plenty''' of real-life precedent).

[[Urban Fantasy]] writers are another special case, since almost all Urban Fantasy is set in something that might be called "the real world with a twist", with all the usual political trouble that implies. As a result, they can take one of a few routes:
* The most common route is "there are many possible explanations" and vague things up as much as possible ([[True Faith|Faith]] being the power that repels [[Vampire]]s rather than than a cross having any actual connection to a deity is a popular one).
* The second most common route (albeit rarer outside of Cosmic Horror) is the "Religion as a Bad Thing" route; the story is straight up atheistic/"Religion is Bad" [[Imperial Truth|propaganda]] where the writer often has an axe to grind against a specific religion. It's a popular choice for writers trying to be [[Edgy]] who want to include religious subject matter in their stories, and they almost exclusively go after the most established religion in the area or any new cults that have emerged at the time. On that note, any fictional religions or cults are most likely thinly-veiled stand-ins for real life ones.
* Some Urban Fantasy works with a clear correct religion exist thanks to the above mentioned sincerely religious authors, which are typically [[Chick Tracts|barely veiled proselytizing]] or [[Twilight|just straight up terrible]], though [[Monster Hunter International|there are some good ones]].
* The fourth route, taken most notably by [[Supers|DC and Marvel comics]] among others, is to take an "All Myths are True" approach: All religions are sort of true, but none have any exclusivity to the Truth, so Thor and Athena might have the Archangel Michael on speeddial when the Orochi teams up with Apep to get up to no good and start making trouble in their neighborhoods (because "Mikey really likes kicking serpent tail, and gets annoyed when we don't at least try to invite him to an evil serpent ass-kicking."). Differs from the "vague things up" route by being clearer on some details, and also much more gonzo. The Abrahamic God is the exception here: He's usually kept especially vague, albeit more powerful (and yet infinitely less accessible) than anyone else in the setting, and only referred to by some codephrase (Marvel likes "The One Above All", DC generally goes for "The Presence" or "whatever is behind the Source Wall").

===Miscellaneous Observations===

Doing the "The Gods are Incompetent" thing (the similar but different "The Gods are Insane", "The Gods Are Assholes" and "The Gods Don't Actually Do Anything" routes also falls under this umbrella) can go into any of the three modes; in a sincere monotheist's (such as Christian) work, it can be a "Take That" to polytheistic religions; in a "Religion is Bad" atheist's, it can be one to religion in general; in a Buddhist-influenced work, it can be a part of the whole "even the Gods are tied up in the Wheel of Karma" concept; and, even if the author is not pushing any religious message in any way, there's a neutral, plot-structural reason to go "Incompetent Gods": it can make the adventurers the Most Competent People Available since if that wasn't the case there wouldn't be anything for the adventurers to do.

If a work has multiple writers, (as frequently happens with RPG and Wargame settings, and quite a few popular SciFi/Fantasy ones as well) there's a tendency for the writers to try and pull the setting into one of the other two "modes" depending on their personal views. This leads to the theme changing from one side to the other as the story progresses. A recent example is [[World of Warcraft|the spate of retcons to the cosmology of the Warcraft universe]] and the morality of its fundamental forces/dominant higher powers, the Light and the Void. If the story doesn't get focused on a pro-religion or anti-religion message, it may end up swinging back and forth between both sides or settle in a mid-point which doesn't take a strong stance either way.

Note that members of the "Religion is Bad" and "Religion is Good" brigades will get involved in arguments over the relative morality or "goodness" of various factions in the story and the accuracy of any messages a writer presents. Often history buffs will throw their hat into the ring as well.

==Examples of /tg/ connected fictional religions==
===Warhammer 40k===
* The [[Imperial Truth]] was originally the Emperor's plan on beliefs, which he and his servants propagated throughout the galaxy during the Great Crusade. Attempting to wean mankind away from Chaos and being a firm member of the "Religion is Bad" brigade, the Emperor proclaimed there are no gods, and religion had to be abolished willingly or by force while science or reason are to be used for explaining the universe and morality. Everything transpired according to his design, except theistic religiosity in the 40k universe is the best weapon against Chaos so Emps' interstellar state atheism policy gave them a major opening. Things went from bad to worse when people started looking up to the Emperor as a god himself, [[Exterminatus|he responded accordingly]], and the Chaos Gods got a new tool in the form of [[Lorgar]]. After the Horus Heresy and the Emperor's removal from galactic politics: the Imperial Truth was slowly shelved in favor of the Imperial Cult, to the point that espousing the teachings of the Truth is ironically considered heresy. Only a few practitioners of the Imperial Truth remain, most notably the Custodes and the Space Marines (both of whom know The Emperor better than anybody to worship him as a god. Plus, their religious autonomy.).
** The [[Imperial Cult]] is the present-day religion of the Imperium of Man, and is a mix of several Abrahamic Religions along with copious amounts of warmongering, fanaticism and xenophobia. Derived from the Lectitio Divinatus penned by [[Lorgar]] pre-HH, the Cult decrees that because the Emperor is capable of all these miracles and power: he ''must'' be a god, and why you should worship and pledge loyalty to him. Its a complete 180 from the Emperor's original teachings, and has simultaneously been responsible for damning and saving the Imperium past the clusterfuck of the Horus Heresy. It's unknown whether the Emperor still abhors godhood and religion and would abolish it the moment he could, or if he's resigned himself to becoming the very thing he fought against for mankind to persevere in these trying times. Whatever the case, he didn't want to be a god, but now he has no choice but to become one.
** The [[Adeptus Mechanicus|Cult Mechanicus]] (Machine Cult) is the religion of the Adeptus Mechanicus, placing a heavy emphasis on machines, viewing them as gifts from the Machine God called "The Omnissiah" Officially, the Omnissiah is The Emperor, which allows the Mechanicus to sidestep the more puritan pundits of the Imperial Cult (we worship The Emprah, just not how you do it). Unofficially, the Omnissiah may or may not be the C'tan god: The Void Dragon. It also has a high emphasis on the collection of knowledge, and one of the Admech's roles in the galaxy is to explore remote and uncharted regions of space to find and search for knowledge that has been lost throughout the millennia. The last of these, is guidelines on machines and knowledge. Officially, heretic(tek) and xeno works are to be abhorred and disposed of, viewing them as perversions of the holy Machine God's works. Unofficially however, more liberally-minded and higher-ranked Magos would happily hoard heretek/xeno works, seeing their potential over the more restricted and constrained works of the Mechanicus.

* Chaos is a violent and complicated henotheistic (believing in multiple gods but only worshipping one) or polytheistic religion with dozens, if not hundreds of interpretations. Even then, there's more sub-cults that worship their particular god in a specific way, either minutely or vastly different from everyone else among followers of the Big 4. And this doesn't even get into the realm of Chaos Undivided (which worships the concept of Chaos itself, instead of the individual gods) and [[Malal]]. Chaos has very little established guidelines regarding worship, apart from their patron god's/gods' general likes/dislikes, so any religious practices or rituals are either based on commands from the god/s or up to the imagination of the cult.
** Interestingly, there is a Space Marine of the Chaos faction who follows the Imperial Truth, and that is [[Fabius Bile]].

* All Greenskins worship Gork and Mork (jury's out on whether the [[Gretchin Revolutionary Committee]] do), but are too disorganized to have anything like a formal religion, though they do make effigies of Gork and Mork and call on them. The closest thing they have to tenants is that Gork favors violence, Mork favors cunning. Greenskins have gotten into fights over this, but violence is part of their nature and that of their gods. While they fight over religion, they also fight over almost any dispute anyway, and may even start a religious argument just to enjoy a good fight among themselves (though the only theological argument they can formulate is "is Gork the god of cunning or is Mork?" or vica versa). On the surface, religion does not play a big-enough role in Ork society compared to other races, being just another outlet for Orks to fight about. But if [[Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka|Ghazghkull]] is any indication: religion can have a great impact on Orks, with him being becoming one of the greatest Warlords in the galaxy, primarily because he thinks he's personally blessed by Gork and Mork themselves. So if you throw in the Orks' gestalt field into the mix, its likely that its not that religion doesn't matter to them, it's under-utilized.

* The Tau's creed "The [[Greater Good]]" is a specie-wide philosophy that was adopted ever since the initial unification of the Tau in the olden days. In a nutshell, the Greater Good emphasizes the co-existence of all Tau and sapient life in general into working together for a common goal to further the Tau's progress, seeing everyone's potential and hoping to utilize that for an, ahem, greater good. Personal religion isn't forbidden, but it must not contradict or override The Greater Good, and must be disregarded if it ever does so. Technically, this means Tau can be religious or non-religious, as the Greater Good is not a religion (due to lacking an afterlife and supernatural aspects, with the closest things to figures of worship being the Ethereals). This sounds all fine and dandy, but the Ethereal class, who are responsible for maintaining The Greater Good, have been shown to be less benevolent than believed and have been using their unnaturally powerful charisma to subtly oppress the Tau and use them to further their own agendas.
**The Farsight Enclaves, who have thrown off Ethereal rule, are the exception in that they have rejected The Greater Good, seeing it as the method of oppression used to keep the T'au under complete control of the ethereals. Due to this, if one considers the Greater Good a religion, The Enclaves are irreligious.
**As of the 4th Sphere Expansion disaster, Chaos Tau are starting to become a thing.
**At one point, the Earth Caste gathered Genestealer-infected Tau and studied them to see what would happen. Of course, a Genestealer cult developed and naturally they violently escaped control and surveillance. According to rumors, they've even produced a Genestealer-infected Ethereal.

* The Eldar have varying views on religiosity depending on their type. Their religion is polytheistic, with henotheistic offshoots, and Ausryan was the highest ranking god. However all of the Eldar gods were murder-raped to death by Slaanesh except for Isha (taken by Nurgle), Khaine (shattered and flung into realspace), Cegorach (hiding in the Webway) and Ynnead (born long after Slaanesh's birth). Their Pantheon's religious practices aren't fleshed out save for those of Cegorach, Isha, and Khaine, via the Harlequins and Aspect Warriors. With most of their gods out of commission, Eldar religious worship is of a deistic bent.
** Craftworlders and Exodites almost exclusively worship the original Eldar pantheon, though some engage in henotheistic worship of only one of the gods. Asuryan is more popular among Craftworlders while Isha is among Exodites, though nearly all give Khaine some tribute during war.
** Corsairs are all over the place, though Khaine is a popular choice given their more militant nature.
** Being agents of the Laughing God himself, the Harlequins' worship is centered around [[Cegorach]], whilst still paying minor tribute to the other gods.
** The new faith around Ynnead, the Ynnari, is rapidly growing but have yet to establish teachings or rituals.
** Unique among the Eldar, the Dark Eldar are irreligious for the most part and while they believe some gods exist they're too self-centered to worship them (this is canon). They're often also anti-religious to boot; a major landmark of Commorragh is a landfill of religious icons called Iconoclast's Mound, and one Wych cult - the Pain Eternal - revolves around killing religious people and destroying shrines and holy sites. The sole exception, except for Dark Eldar who stop being Dark Eldar, are the [[Incubi]] who hold [[Khaine]] in high regard.
** The Ynnari have encountered atleast one ancient Craftworld that turned into an entire Genestealer cult in a misguided attempt to avoid getting their souls consumed by Slaanesh as their ship had no infinity circuit present. We're not sure if this worked to any capacity (if at all, given the Hive Mind does not absorb souls), but they were taken down by the Ynnari for obvious reasons.
** There are numerous rumors of a very small number of Chaos Eldar, but these are barely fleshed out and heavily classified in-universe. There have been verified Nurgle-worshipping Eldar and persistent rumors that some have embraced Slaanesh without becoming soul-food. Apart from this, some Dark Eldar have been willing to summon Chaos Daemons or work with Chaos worshippers ([[Fabius Bile|or allies of Chaos]]) to further their own ends.

* While the Necrontyr had religions before certain [[C'tan|star entities]] [[Necrons|roboticizied them]], those aren't fleshed out or detailed. Its also heavily implied the C'tan co-opted the Necrontyr religion beforehand. With the change to Necrons taking the higher though processes of most of them, any Necrons who can comprehend faith and religiosity either worship the C'tan or have become irreligious.

* The Tyranids themselves are irreligious, being spehss bugs and all, but understand at least a few of the advantages of religion. [[Genestealer]]s infect people and together they establish cults on targeted worlds, such as one worshipping "Children of the Stars", a perversion of the Imperial Cult (such as one that worships a [[Swarmlord|four-armed]] version of the Emperor) or something else like "Celebrants of Nihilism" (yes, that's a canon Genestealer cult name). Psychic influence is often involved and, notably, the Genestealers do not consider themselves gods. Once the Tyranids arrive en-masse, the cult-gets assimilated along with all non-Tyranids willingly or not. An interesting tidbit is that the Hive Mind stops the Tyranids from attacking the cultists in early stages of the invasion and leads them on, only to later override the Genestealers' wills and and make them slaughter the cultists.

===Dungeons and Dragons===
* Among Dungeons and Dragons settings, [[Planescape]], [[Eberron]], and [[Pathfinder]] are notable for having some coherent things that could be called "Religions", rather then the usual generic Pantheism.
** Most of Planescape's Factions effectively count as religions, to the point they can produce [[Cleric]]s ([[Planescape: Torment#Fall-From-Grace|Atheist ones at that]]). Yes, even the Athar. (Perhaps ''especially'' the Athar.)
** Half of Eberron's religions aren't worship of deities. The [[Blood of Vol]] seeks to unlock the divinity within one's self and rejects the gods (if they even exist) and the [[Path of Inspiration]] seeks to improve their next reincarnation. The Undying Court worships not gods but their undead ancestors that make up their government. The [[Path of Light]], [[Warforged_Mysteries#The_Becoming_God|Becoming God]] and [[Warforged_Mysteries#The_Reforged|Reforged]] all seek to ''create'' a deity. Even some interpretations of the [[Sovereign Host]], like the one most common among dragons, don't worship them as deities. Due to the way divine casting works in Eberron, all of these can produce divine casters.
** There's a handful of religions on [[Golarion]] that aren't merely worship of pantheons. The most prominent (read: Actually has mechanical support) is the [[Prophecies of Kalistrade]], which is basically fantasy [[Star Trek|Ferengi]].

* [[D20 Modern]]'s [[Urban Arcana]], unusually for urban fantasy, has D&D deities bleed into reality alongside the monsters. You are still able to play a <s>cleric</s> "acolyte" of any real world deity despite this.

===Star Wars===
* [[Star Wars]] is inconsistent on if the [[The Force]] is a religion. The Jedi and the Sith ''could'' both be considered religions as they are considered monastic, but mix in several other traits such as being meritocratic (Jedi) and kraterocratic (Sith) and Lucas himself has axed at least one prototyped book for portraying them too much as a religion. It's also notable that the Sith were former Jedi who left the Jedi path for several reasons including [[Heresy|disagreements over the teachings of that creed]]. Aside from that, religion is nearly always a non-human tradition, something noted in a culture's historical background and never seen implying its extinction, or a scam. The religiously linked "damn" and "hell" are the two real world swear words that exist in-universe, purely because Han Solo used them in the films, and some concept of an "angel" exists because a young Anakin told Padme about them in the prequel trilogy films.
** There are rare exceptions where a religion is fleshed out and explored, and the writing goes various directions for better or worse. A notable example is the aggressive polytheistic religion of the antagonistic Yuuzhan Vong from the EU (which the story gradually revealed was long ago perverted from benevolent roots, and this perverted form takes a few cues from Islam and Aztec mythology).

===Star Trek===
* Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry had a low opinion of religion and in his vision humanity had done away with it and was better off for it and he had no interest in adding it to the aliens. However, some of the cast and crew disagreed and occasionally references and religions found their way into the show, which increased after Roddenberry's death. The Federation's culture is distinctly humanistic (extending the concept to alien species) in it's outlook in which religion is regarded as a thing of the past.
** While there are plenty of "Godlike" entities in Star Trek, almost all are treated as Sufficiently Advanced Aliens in the Arthur C. Clarke sense--and in particular, in ST:TNG, the flip side, that Picard and his crew are frequently shown to look like Gods to sufficiently primitive aliens, is gone into in more than one episode.
** The primary religion of the Federations main frenemies, the Klingons, is a deistic religion where a Klingon warrior killed their gods, and in their belief Klingons who live according to those tenants get to live in a pseudo-Valhalla.
** The Bajorans are a highly religious alien race, with the majority following peaceful teachings and a minority of violent extremists.
*** Of some note, the Bajoran religion is of interest because their "Gods" actually exist, and can be (somewhat incomprehensibly) talked to (a rarity outside of [[Science Fantasy]]). In other words, they were frequently a method of having some religion vs. science debates where the divine entity (A) explicitly exists, (B) is explainable as "sufficiently advanced and unusual aliens", and (C) aren't jerks, just bad at communication with those of us who experience time linearly--in other words, with a deck that wasn't quite as badly stacked. The religiosity was meant to be as a way of contrasting the Starfleet personnel with the native population and to draw a parallel between Bajorans under the Cardassian Occupation and various real world recently freed oppressed religious-slash-ethnic groups.
** <s>In the fifth Star Trek movie, ''"The Final Frontier"'', some of the crew steal the Enterprise to look for God and instead find a powerful alien being impersonating God in the center of the universe</s> '''Just like there is no live-action movie of Avatar: The Last Airbender, there is totally no Star Trek 5!'''

===World of Darkness===
* Very large books could be written about religion and [[World of Darkness]]/Chronicles of Darkness. We'll just cover a few highlights:
** From [[Vampire: The Requiem]], there's the the Lancea et Sanctum, which might be best described as "Christianity for Vampires", and the Circle of the Crone, which is "Pagan Vampires". Both have Vampire miracles on tap (pun intended).
** [[Hunter: The Vigil]] has various religious organizations among the Compacts and Conspiracies, some very similar to real world ones, others...not so much.
** [[Mage: The Ascension]] has various religious Traditions, portrayed in that highly-stereotypical and highly-depending-on-the-author way typical of old WoD.

==See also==
* [[Mythology]]
* [[True Faith]], a common mechanic to weaponize religion in [[Urban Fantasy]].

[[Category:Not related]]
[[Category:History]]

Religion

2020-10-09T04:17:57Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* Definition of Religion */

{{flamewar}}
{{topquote|Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge, which is power; religion gives man wisdom, which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals.|Martin Luther King, Jr}}

:'''Dracula''': ''I was called here by, huuuuumans, who wish to pay me tribute!''
:'''Richter Belmont''': ''Tribute?! You steal men's souls! And make them your slaves!''
:'''Dracula''': ''Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.''
::--An excerpt from the infamous exchange that also gave us "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets" in [[Castlevania#Castlevania:_Symphony_Of_The_Night_.28Castlevania_9.29|Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.]]

Because it's important to several settings and RPG systems, particularly ones that are high-profile or relevant to /tg/, we have a religion article. Let's try and keep it focused on the directly-related-to-/tg/ stuff and not descend into the pure [[skub]] that can arise in discussions of real-life religions, okay?

==Definition of Religion==
Almost since the inception of the term, scholars have failed to agree on a definition of religion. While there are some belief systems that always count as religions, some have applied the term to various things such as political ideologies, or groups when they reach a certain point. There are however two general definition systems: the sociological/functional and the phenomenological/philosophical.

The two most widely accepted are:
* "a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say things set apart and forbidden - beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a church, all those who adhere to them."
* "a comprehensive worldview or 'metaphysical moral vision' that is accepted as binding because it is held to be in itself basically true and just even if all dimensions of it cannot be either fully confirmed or refuted".

As stated before, one common element that every religion which fits the criteria has is humanity's relation to supernatural forces, as all of them have at least one [[God|god]] and/or an afterlife even where there are exceptions; Buddhism doesn't have any gods or its own idea of the cosmos' origins but has afterlives and the existence of the eternal soul (unless a persons achieves nirvana), and Taoism doesn't have an afterlife in the conventional sense but is pantheistic.

Like other terms for heavily [[SJW|debated]] [[communism|subjects]], religion and religious have also been used as insults or Snarl Words in social and political discussions (especially from the 20th century and onwards) to ridicule groups openly promoting something the user disagrees with. This snarl creates a caricature of the group to smear them by association with the worst excesses/negative stereotypes of religious people (like being preachy, judgmental, irrational, hypocritical).

==List of Religions==

Too many to list, and there's debate about the categorization. In lieu of a list on this site, here are two complied lists that should cover everything that fits the bill. Otherwise, check out the [[Mythology]] page.

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions Wikipedia's list of religions and spiritual traditions]
* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups For a simplified version from Wikipedia that focuses more on major religions]

==Religion vs. Mythology==
While [[Mythology|mythologies]] aren't religions in and of themselves, every religion has a mythology. While mythologies are merely the accounts of supernatural events, religions add rituals and practices that link those mythologies directly to the lives of their believers in one form or another, typically by describing how to properly serve to a god (or multiple gods, it depends) a significant role in the mythology a given religion is derived from. [[Skub|Whatever the source]], the mythology almost always predates the religion. As a result, especially since the Fantasy genre deals in supernatural beings and forces, most if not all fantasy settings have religions. Science fiction does to a lesser degree, mostly because during the Golden Age of sci-fi empiricists and secular humanists were attracted to the genre and their views often seeped into their stories. Despite this, given that most real-life societies have had religions playing a role in or since their founding, religions are still found in sci-fi.

Religions involves belief systems and practices, where an adherent can call upon the power/being the religion is focused on to give them aid in [[cleric|various]] [[Paladin|ways]], depending at the very least on the religion and the task in question. Given that religions are about people's place in the world, how it was made, ideas on how life should be lived and how humans should relate to the supernatural, they have major implications for societies. Given that people can become [[Exarch|dangerously single-minded]] about a cause, people can be become extremists about their religion, regardless of the fact that [[Heironeous|some]] are more benevolent than [[Asmodeus|others]] and in numerous cases even [[Heresy|if it involves going against the religion's teachings]]; in conjunction with the above this means religious conflicts can become widespread, long-lasting, cause carnage and also involve other elements such as politics- both in fantasy and in the real world.

==Role in Society==
A person's belief (for or against) any or all religions is a major factor in their worldview, and as such often serves as the undercurrent for all others. This is because this belief shapes people's views on the big things such as the purpose of life, how life should be lived in relation to oneself and others and what happens to people after they die. On the upside, this often leads to teachings with the goal of unity, peace, charity and co-operation as per the teachings of most religions, some of which are adapted by or also found among non-religious systems. On the downside, this can lead to clashes over how the people involved do the will of whichever beings or forces they follow, which religion should be followed or whether or not people should follow a god or religion at all. This can involve arguments and factionalizing, or in some cases worse things like pogroms and wars. Since they are an overarching and fairly common element in cultures, they often appear or are referenced in fiction.

The most common religious belief systems are the Abrahamic family of religions (primarily Judaism, Christianity and Islam) which are Monotheistic (belief in a singular God) and share many common elements and root, with - at the time this was written - Christianity being the most followed religion globally. Historically, these and other religions were frequently enshrined in law as the "state religion", giving them special privileges such as extensive influence over the government or tax exemptions. In some cases, they even took over the functions of the government entirely in a system known as theocracy; while uncommon in the present day, theocracies are still in use in places such as the Vatican and Iran.

Within the last few centuries, due to events such as the French Revolution, there has also been a significant amount of anti-religious sentiment, which regards religion as at best redundant and at worst destructive (beyond historical grievances with specific groups within religions, reasons for this view and whether or not those arguments have any merit, shall not be discussed here). For the most part, a combination of people identifying more with their culture or nation than their religion and the concept that religion and functions of state should not interfere with each other has turned into more of a "live and let live" mentality that doesn't really support or oppose any one religion and only reacts when said religions begin actively defying the state or the state starts bringing the boot down on religion.

Throughout history, numerous tyrannical regimes have tried to restrict or stamp out religions. This is usually because religious teachings put the figure/object of worship before the state in a conflict of interest and most religions' teachings condemn tyranny or [[Slaanesh|the vices tyrannical leaders indulge]]. Other reasons include tyrants dislike being answerable to anyone besides themselves and a tyrant may have some form of anti-religious prejudice. While nations have usually tried to block specific religions deemed "false" (read: religions opposing the state-sponsored religion in any way), several nations (usually [[Communism|Communist]] states which took Marx's "religion is the opiate of the masses" quote out of context as a call to arms rather than a passive theory) have tried to get rid of religion altogether, albeit with horrifying [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Militant_Atheists results] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge_rule_of_Cambodia#Religious_communities each] time. Best case scenario, they sidegrade from one set of problems to another as cults of personality (commonly ones based on the ruler in charge) spring up to exploit the newly created power vacuum while believers who survive the regime try to continue their activities in secret. Worst case scenario, the society and its population degenerates into [[Commorragh|a violent, fractious, and nihilistic shell of their former selves]].

Aside from the aforementioned theocracies, the most religious nations are countries such as Brazil in South America or Zambia in Africa (Zambia even has a state religion alongside a law that allows for freedom of religion). China is - at the time this was written - the world's least religious and most atheistic country (the situation around North Korea is [[Skub|debatable]], since even though they violently suppress religions [https://www.foxnews.com/world/north-korea-publicly-executes-80-some-for-videos-or-bibles-report-says to the point that merely having copies of religious texts can be grounds for execution], they also have the Kim Cult blended with the Marxist offshoot ideology Juche).

==How this impacts /tg/==
A few major ways. Since most if not every society in real-life has had religion either be the basis for its founding or play a role in it, religion is just as involved in the backstory or current lore of settings. There are three major "modes" of /tg/ settings and related fictions:
* Purely functional use of religion as a story device. (What we might call "Functionalists")
* Endorsement of religion and/or religious people. (What we might call "Religion is Good" types)
* Criticism of religion and/or religious people. (What we might call "Religion is Bad" types)
For ease of categorization, writers who use these modes will also be called proponents, detractors or functionalists (who can be pro, anti or neutral).

===Religion as a story device/Functionalists===
Compared to the two types of writers found below, these writers are usually just attempting to model their work after real-world [[Mythology]] and are frequently attempting to keep their views of Religion separate from their work. Frequently comes in one of two subspecies:
* The [[Standard Fantasy Setting]] default: The world is ruled by an ordinary polytheistic pantheon, usually close to some admixture of Norse and Greek mythologies. Some of them also have a Top God more powerful than all the others, and maybe the in-universe creator of everything who is mostly hands-off in cosmic affairs. The gods of these religions tend to focus on specific areas (gods of [[Paladin|Justice]] and [[Druid|Nature]] are common, for subtly obvious reasons) and frequently want their followers to propagate or promote these things.
* The kind of setting they wanted to make dictated the nature of the divine. For example, in [[Exalted]] just about all the figures anybody would call a "God" (besides the Exalted) are Useless, because the Exalted (which includes the Player Characters) are the guys who were made specifically to do whatever the gods needed them to do for reasons inherent to the setting, to go with the main theme of the setting for the PCs: "You can do '''almost anything''', except ''avoid the consequences of being the one who did that anything''".

===Religion as a Bad Thing/Detractors===
There are several writers of Science Fiction and Fantasy that are of the opinion "Religion Is Bad", often alongside having an axe to grind (sometimes warranted, sometimes not) with either one or more specific real-life religions. This is more common in Sci-Fi than fantasy because the focus on science appeals to the naturalist, empiricist and/or humanist worldview of such writers, with the supernatural being seen as an obstacle to that. Despite that, the view is found among some fantasy authors as well, such as the author of the book series "His Dark Materials", Philip Pullman (he wrote it as pushback against C.S Lewis' "Chronicles of Narnia" series). Whatever the genre, this comes in flavors of either "The Gods Don't Exist", "The Gods are Incompetent" (more on that below) or "The Gods are Evil". Cosmic Horror also tends to use the "Gods Don't Exist" or "Gods are Evil" route, or combine them into "The Gods are actually Incomprehensible and Destructive Aliens" (for example; the author who codified the genre, [[H.P. Lovecraft]], was an avowed anti-religious atheist - which is why cults are recurring villains in his stories). This also has the side effect of inclining science fiction towards an atheistic perspective.

Another major component is personal issues of the author such as grievance or prejudice, but that's case-by-case and a major can of worms. A writer could have resentment against a specific religion or even the higher power a religion reveres (though opposition to a god or gods is called anti-theistic, not anti-religious), and single them out in their works due to personal bias or agenda. Worst case scenario, the story is some sort of anti-religious wish fulfillment power fantasy - such as Frank Miller's "Holy Terror" comics against Islam and Garth Ennis' "Preacher" comics (and their live-action adaptation) against Christianity.

Whatever the motivation, writers saying this message either model their fictional religions on the - occasionally exaggerated - worst excesses of real world religious people or use a fictional religion as a (usually strawman) stand-in of a real one. The most frequently targeted religions are Christianity, Islam, any faith that practiced human sacrifice (such as the Aztec religious practices) and Scientology. Cults, especially those with beliefs that mainstream religions consider unorthodox or outright heretical, are especially fertile ground for this message, albeit running the risk of being misapplied to tar other groups with the same brush.

===Religion as a Good Thing/Proponents===
There are several Science Fiction and Fantasy writers who either are religious themselves and want to promote their worldview, look upon religion positively and put that into the story or both. This is more common in Fantasy than Sci-fi, partly because with the supernatural being THE fundamental element of the genre, this gives opportunities to explore many aspects of religiosity. This is less common in science-fiction, but not unheard of, such as Carl Sagan's novel "Contact" where God's signature is found in the digits of pi. These authors usually put more thought into their fictional religion plus its central figure (although they have a tendency to go all "Crystal Dragon Jesus"), and try and have it be at least a somewhat good influence, although religious institutions and leaders are usually hit-and-miss affairs.

Some people make a fictional setting with figures from real-world religions, either in the real-world or [[CS Lewis|an alternate world (such as Narnia)]]. Others use fictional religions that either visually resemble real-life religions or figures from them; religions that often get this treatment are the Abrahamic faiths (most often Christianity), Greek mythology, Egyptian mythology and Norse mythology (albeit often a sanitized version of the latter three). In other cases they all but abandon any form of subtlety, with the fictional religion being distinguished from the real-world religion the author follows by only a handful of minor changes. Naturally, those kinds of works tend to come off as preachy, to say the least.

Another route this uses is the route that faith itself provides the power as per "[[Belief Function|Belief Function]]" (think Morpheus' "your mind makes it real" quote, but applying at the cosmological level). In fact, Warhammer often goes the route that the gods are powered by faith as well as from their sphere of influence which has either [[Sigmar|caused some people have risen to godhood]] or [[Ynnead|caused new gods to be born in the setting]]. In fact, this has proven the greatest weapon against Chaos in every Warhammer setting (and why the Emperor's plan to starve the Chaos Gods with atheism was doomed to fail from the start).

===Somewhat special cases===

One somewhat special case is the "Religion of Evil"; in many settings, there is a religion that is explicitly capital E Evil and seeks one of the usual "Card Carrying Villain" goals of Control, Conquest, Corruption, or Destruction. Frequently has some admixture of the worst aspects of Roman Paganism, Norse practices, the Aztec, Scientology and/or the various Abrahamic religions. They also often draw from those found in the writings of H.P Lovecraft. If this cult directly worships an individual Evil God, expect whatever makes sense for that deity to be some form of destructive activity--e.g., the cult of the God of Murder demands human sacrifice on a regular basis, with a certain portion of that explicitly being not-careful-enough cultists. Regardless, Religions of Evil can show up in all three above modes, and usually has a special purpose in all three:

* All three types need bad guys. In particular, a group who by definition is Evil is always good for some no-need-to-worry-about-the-ethics-or-morality-of-killing fodder (based on the idea that everyone in is group is evil because you have to do evil to be part of the group).
* Religion is Bad types tend to use them to say either "while they're all Bad, some are worse then others", that "Religion can be used to justify anything", use it as a strawman to tar all with the same brush or they have a specific personal grudge (either against an entire religion, a group within that religion or specific individual adherents).
* Religion is Good types or the sincerely religious tend to use them as analogies with fanaticism, criticize Real World cults, compare different beliefs or deal with negative aspects of religion (occasionally making jabs at competitive religions, or fellow believers the author disagrees with). Another approach is to have a Religion of Good fighting against a Religion of Evil - either as the heroes of the story or a valued ally - to say "there is good religion, so don't tar all with the same negative brush".
** As a side note, a lot of fantasy has moved slightly away from pure Religions of Evil, for much the same reason as [[Always Chaotic Evil]] races (questions of whether this fosters prejudice against real-life groups and audiences and authors demanding more motive for their villains). While there are still plenty of them, they usually add some nuance that makes them at least morally neutral under their own lights. Popular options are for them to be an off-shoot/subset of another religion and/or be taking vengeance for an injustice (real or perceived, both of which have '''plenty''' of real-life precedent).

[[Urban Fantasy]] writers are another special case, since almost all Urban Fantasy is set in something that might be called "the real world with a twist", with all the usual political trouble that implies. As a result, they can take one of a few routes:
* The most common route is "there are many possible explanations" and vague things up as much as possible ([[True Faith|Faith]] being the power that repels [[Vampire]]s rather than than a cross having any actual connection to a deity is a popular one).
* The second most common route (albeit rarer outside of Cosmic Horror) is the "Religion as a Bad Thing" route; the story is straight up atheistic/"Religion is Bad" [[Imperial Truth|propaganda]] where the writer often has an axe to grind against a specific religion. It's a popular choice for writers trying to be [[Edgy]] who want to include religious subject matter in their stories, and they almost exclusively go after the most established religion in the area or any new cults that have emerged at the time. On that note, any fictional religions or cults are most likely thinly-veiled stand-ins for real life ones.
* Some Urban Fantasy works with a clear correct religion exist thanks to the above mentioned sincerely religious authors, which are typically [[Chick Tracts|barely veiled proselytizing]] or [[Twilight|just straight up terrible]], though [[Monster Hunter International|there are some good ones]].
* The fourth route, taken most notably by [[Supers|DC and Marvel comics]] among others, is to take an "All Myths are True" approach: All religions are sort of true, but none have any exclusivity to the Truth, so Thor and Athena might have the Archangel Michael on speeddial when the Orochi teams up with Apep to get up to no good and start making trouble in their neighborhoods (because "Mikey really likes kicking serpent tail, and gets annoyed when we don't at least try to invite him to an evil serpent ass-kicking."). Differs from the "vague things up" route by being clearer on some details, and also much more gonzo. The Abrahamic God is the exception here: He's usually kept especially vague, albeit more powerful (and yet infinitely less accessible) than anyone else in the setting, and only referred to by some codephrase (Marvel likes "The One Above All", DC generally goes for "The Presence" or "whatever is behind the Source Wall").

===Miscellaneous Observations===

Doing the "The Gods are Incompetent" thing (the similar but different "The Gods are Insane", "The Gods Are Assholes" and "The Gods Don't Actually Do Anything" routes also falls under this umbrella) can go into any of the three modes; in a sincere monotheist's (such as Christian) work, it can be a "Take That" to polytheistic religions; in a "Religion is Bad" atheist's, it can be one to religion in general; in a Buddhist-influenced work, it can be a part of the whole "even the Gods are tied up in the Wheel of Karma" concept; and, even if the author is not pushing any religious message in any way, there's a neutral, plot-structural reason to go "Incompetent Gods": it can make the adventurers the Most Competent People Available since if that wasn't the case there wouldn't be anything for the adventurers to do.

If a work has multiple writers, (as frequently happens with RPG and Wargame settings, and quite a few popular SciFi/Fantasy ones as well) there's a tendency for the writers to try and pull the setting into one of the other two "modes" depending on their personal views. This leads to the theme changing from one side to the other as the story progresses. A recent example is [[World of Warcraft|the spate of retcons to the cosmology of the Warcraft universe]] and the morality of its fundamental forces/dominant higher powers, the Light and the Void. If the story doesn't get focused on a pro-religion or anti-religion message, it may end up swinging back and forth between both sides or settle in a mid-point which doesn't take a strong stance either way.

Note that members of the "Religion is Bad" and "Religion is Good" brigades will get involved in arguments over the relative morality or "goodness" of various factions in the story and the accuracy of any messages a writer presents. Often history buffs will throw their hat into the ring as well.

==Examples of /tg/ connected fictional religions==
===Warhammer 40k===
* The [[Imperial Truth]] was originally the Emperor's plan on beliefs, which he and his servants propagated throughout the galaxy during the Great Crusade. Attempting to wean mankind away from Chaos and being a firm member of the "Religion is Bad" brigade, the Emperor proclaimed there are no gods, and religion had to be abolished willingly or by force while science or reason are to be used for explaining the universe and morality. Everything transpired according to his design, except theistic religiosity in the 40k universe is the best weapon against Chaos so Emps' interstellar state atheism policy gave them a major opening. Things went from bad to worse when people started looking up to the Emperor as a god himself, [[Exterminatus|he responded accordingly]], and the Chaos Gods got a new tool in the form of [[Lorgar]]. After the Horus Heresy and the Emperor's removal from galactic politics: the Imperial Truth was slowly shelved in favor of the Imperial Cult, to the point that espousing the teachings of the Truth is ironically considered heresy. Only a few practitioners of the Imperial Truth remain, most notably the Custodes and the Space Marines (both of whom know The Emperor better than anybody to worship him as a god. Plus, their religious autonomy.).
** The [[Imperial Cult]] is the present-day religion of the Imperium of Man, and is a mix of several Abrahamic Religions along with copious amounts of warmongering, fanaticism and xenophobia. Derived from the Lectitio Divinatus penned by [[Lorgar]] pre-HH, the Cult decrees that because the Emperor is capable of all these miracles and power: he ''must'' be a god, and why you should worship and pledge loyalty to him. Its a complete 180 from the Emperor's original teachings, and has simultaneously been responsible for damning and saving the Imperium past the clusterfuck of the Horus Heresy. It's unknown whether the Emperor still abhors godhood and religion and would abolish it the moment he could, or if he's resigned himself to becoming the very thing he fought against for mankind to persevere in these trying times. Whatever the case, he didn't want to be a god, but now he has no choice but to become one.
** The [[Adeptus Mechanicus|Cult Mechanicus]] (Machine Cult) is the religion of the Adeptus Mechanicus, placing a heavy emphasis on machines, viewing them as gifts from the Machine God called "The Omnissiah" Officially, the Omnissiah is The Emperor, which allows the Mechanicus to sidestep the more puritan pundits of the Imperial Cult (we worship The Emprah, just not how you do it). Unofficially, the Omnissiah may or may not be the C'tan god: The Void Dragon. It also has a high emphasis on the collection of knowledge, and one of the Admech's roles in the galaxy is to explore remote and uncharted regions of space to find and search for knowledge that has been lost throughout the millennia. The last of these, is guidelines on machines and knowledge. Officially, heretic(tek) and xeno works are to be abhorred and disposed of, viewing them as perversions of the holy Machine God's works. Unofficially however, more liberally-minded and higher-ranked Magos would happily hoard heretek/xeno works, seeing their potential over the more restricted and constrained works of the Mechanicus.

* Chaos is a violent and complicated henotheistic (believing in multiple gods but only worshipping one) or polytheistic religion with dozens, if not hundreds of interpretations. Even then, there's more sub-cults that worship their particular god in a specific way, either minutely or vastly different from everyone else among followers of the Big 4. And this doesn't even get into the realm of Chaos Undivided (which worships the concept of Chaos itself, instead of the individual gods) and [[Malal]]. Chaos has very little established guidelines regarding worship, apart from their patron god's/gods' general likes/dislikes, so any religious practices or rituals are either based on commands from the god/s or up to the imagination of the cult.
** Interestingly, there is a Space Marine of the Chaos faction who follows the Imperial Truth, and that is [[Fabius Bile]].

* All Greenskins worship Gork and Mork (jury's out on whether the [[Gretchin Revolutionary Committee]] do), but are too disorganized to have anything like a formal religion, though they do make effigies of Gork and Mork and call on them. The closest thing they have to tenants is that Gork favors violence, Mork favors cunning. Greenskins have gotten into fights over this, but violence is part of their nature and that of their gods. While they fight over religion, they also fight over almost any dispute anyway, and may even start a religious argument just to enjoy a good fight among themselves (though the only theological argument they can formulate is "is Gork the god of cunning or is Mork?" or vica versa). On the surface, religion does not play a big-enough role in Ork society compared to other races, being just another outlet for Orks to fight about. But if [[Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka|Ghazghkull]] is any indication: religion can have a great impact on Orks, with him being becoming one of the greatest Warlords in the galaxy, primarily because he thinks he's personally blessed by Gork and Mork themselves. So if you throw in the Orks' gestalt field into the mix, its likely that its not that religion doesn't matter to them, it's under-utilized.

* The Tau's creed "The [[Greater Good]]" is a specie-wide philosophy that was adopted ever since the initial unification of the Tau in the olden days. In a nutshell, the Greater Good emphasizes the co-existence of all Tau and sapient life in general into working together for a common goal to further the Tau's progress, seeing everyone's potential and hoping to utilize that for an, ahem, greater good. Personal religion isn't forbidden, but it must not contradict or override The Greater Good, and must be disregarded if it ever does so. Technically, this means Tau can be religious or non-religious, as the Greater Good is not a religion (due to lacking an afterlife and supernatural aspects, with the closest things to figures of worship being the Ethereals). This sounds all fine and dandy, but the Ethereal class, who are responsible for maintaining The Greater Good, have been shown to be less benevolent than believed and have been using their unnaturally powerful charisma to subtly oppress the Tau and use them to further their own agendas.
**The Farsight Enclaves, who have thrown off Ethereal rule, are the exception in that they have rejected The Greater Good, seeing it as the method of oppression used to keep the T'au under complete control of the ethereals. Due to this, if one considers the Greater Good a religion, The Enclaves are irreligious.
**As of the 4th Sphere Expansion disaster, Chaos Tau are starting to become a thing.
**At one point, the Earth Caste gathered Genestealer-infected Tau and studied them to see what would happen. Of course, a Genestealer cult developed and naturally they violently escaped control and surveillance. According to rumors, they've even produced a Genestealer-infected Ethereal.

* The Eldar have varying views on religiosity depending on their type. Their religion is polytheistic, with henotheistic offshoots, and Ausryan was the highest ranking god. However all of the Eldar gods were murder-raped to death by Slaanesh except for Isha (taken by Nurgle), Khaine (shattered and flung into realspace), Cegorach (hiding in the Webway) and Ynnead (born long after Slaanesh's birth). Their Pantheon's religious practices aren't fleshed out save for those of Cegorach, Isha, and Khaine, via the Harlequins and Aspect Warriors. With most of their gods out of commission, Eldar religious worship is of a deistic bent.
** Craftworlders and Exodites almost exclusively worship the original Eldar pantheon, though some engage in henotheistic worship of only one of the gods. Asuryan is more popular among Craftworlders while Isha is among Exodites, though nearly all give Khaine some tribute during war.
** Corsairs are all over the place, though Khaine is a popular choice given their more militant nature.
** Being agents of the Laughing God himself, the Harlequins' worship is centered around [[Cegorach]], whilst still paying minor tribute to the other gods.
** The new faith around Ynnead, the Ynnari, is rapidly growing but have yet to establish teachings or rituals.
** Unique among the Eldar, the Dark Eldar are irreligious for the most part and while they believe some gods exist they're too self-centered to worship them (this is canon). They're often also anti-religious to boot; a major landmark of Commorragh is a landfill of religious icons called Iconoclast's Mound, and one Wych cult - the Pain Eternal - revolves around killing religious people and destroying shrines and holy sites. The sole exception, except for Dark Eldar who stop being Dark Eldar, are the [[Incubi]] who hold [[Khaine]] in high regard.
** The Ynnari have encountered atleast one ancient Craftworld that turned into an entire Genestealer cult in a misguided attempt to avoid getting their souls consumed by Slaanesh as their ship had no infinity circuit present. We're not sure if this worked to any capacity (if at all, given the Hive Mind does not absorb souls), but they were taken down by the Ynnari for obvious reasons.
** There are numerous rumors of a very small number of Chaos Eldar, but these are barely fleshed out and heavily classified in-universe. There have been verified Nurgle-worshipping Eldar and persistent rumors that some have embraced Slaanesh without becoming soul-food. Apart from this, some Dark Eldar have been willing to summon Chaos Daemons or work with Chaos worshippers ([[Fabius Bile|or allies of Chaos]]) to further their own ends.

* While the Necrontyr had religions before certain [[C'tan|star entities]] [[Necrons|roboticizied them]], those aren't fleshed out or detailed. Its also heavily implied the C'tan co-opted the Necrontyr religion beforehand. With the change to Necrons taking the higher though processes of most of them, any Necrons who can comprehend faith and religiosity either worship the C'tan or have become irreligious.

* The Tyranids themselves are irreligious, being spehss bugs and all, but understand at least a few of the advantages of religion. [[Genestealer]]s infect people and together they establish cults on targeted worlds, such as one worshipping "Children of the Stars", a perversion of the Imperial Cult (such as one that worships a [[Swarmlord|four-armed]] version of the Emperor) or something else like "Celebrants of Nihilism" (yes, that's a canon Genestealer cult name). Psychic influence is often involved and, notably, the Genestealers do not consider themselves gods. Once the Tyranids arrive en-masse, the cult-gets assimilated along with all non-Tyranids willingly or not. An interesting tidbit is that the Hive Mind stops the Tyranids from attacking the cultists in early stages of the invasion and leads them on, only to later override the Genestealers' wills and and make them slaughter the cultists.

===Dungeons and Dragons===
* Among Dungeons and Dragons settings, [[Planescape]], [[Eberron]], and [[Pathfinder]] are notable for having some coherent things that could be called "Religions", rather then the usual generic Pantheism.
** Most of Planescape's Factions effectively count as religions, to the point they can produce [[Cleric]]s ([[Planescape: Torment#Fall-From-Grace|Atheist ones at that]]). Yes, even the Athar. (Perhaps ''especially'' the Athar.)
** Half of Eberron's religions aren't worship of deities. The [[Blood of Vol]] seeks to unlock the divinity within one's self and rejects the gods (if they even exist) and the [[Path of Inspiration]] seeks to improve their next reincarnation. The Undying Court worships not gods but their undead ancestors that make up their government. The [[Path of Light]], [[Warforged_Mysteries#The_Becoming_God|Becoming God]] and [[Warforged_Mysteries#The_Reforged|Reforged]] all seek to ''create'' a deity. Even some interpretations of the [[Sovereign Host]], like the one most common among dragons, don't worship them as deities. Due to the way divine casting works in Eberron, all of these can produce divine casters.
** There's a handful of religions on [[Golarion]] that aren't merely worship of pantheons. The most prominent (read: Actually has mechanical support) is the [[Prophecies of Kalistrade]], which is basically fantasy [[Star Trek|Ferengi]].

* [[D20 Modern]]'s [[Urban Arcana]], unusually for urban fantasy, has D&D deities bleed into reality alongside the monsters. You are still able to play a <s>cleric</s> "acolyte" of any real world deity despite this.

===Star Wars===
* [[Star Wars]] is inconsistent on if the [[The Force]] is a religion. The Jedi and the Sith ''could'' both be considered religions as they are considered monastic, but mix in several other traits such as being meritocratic (Jedi) and kraterocratic (Sith) and Lucas himself has axed at least one prototyped book for portraying them too much as a religion. It's also notable that the Sith were former Jedi who left the Jedi path for several reasons including [[Heresy|disagreements over the teachings of that creed]]. Aside from that, religion is nearly always a non-human tradition, something noted in a culture's historical background and never seen implying its extinction, or a scam. The religiously linked "damn" and "hell" are the two real world swear words that exist in-universe, purely because Han Solo used them in the films, and some concept of an "angel" exists because a young Anakin told Padme about them in the prequel trilogy films.
** There are rare exceptions where a religion is fleshed out and explored, and the writing goes various directions for better or worse. A notable example is the aggressive polytheistic religion of the antagonistic Yuuzhan Vong from the EU (which the story gradually revealed was long ago perverted from benevolent roots, and this perverted form takes a few cues from Islam and Aztec mythology).

===Star Trek===
* Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry had a low opinion of religion and in his vision humanity had done away with it and was better off for it and he had no interest in adding it to the aliens. However, some of the cast and crew disagreed and occasionally references and religions found their way into the show, which increased after Roddenberry's death. The Federation's culture is distinctly humanistic (extending the concept to alien species) in it's outlook in which religion is regarded as a thing of the past.
** While there are plenty of "Godlike" entities in Star Trek, almost all are treated as Sufficiently Advanced Aliens in the Arthur C. Clarke sense--and in particular, in ST:TNG, the flip side, that Picard and his crew are frequently shown to look like Gods to sufficiently primitive aliens, is gone into in more than one episode.
** The primary religion of the Federations main frenemies, the Klingons, is a deistic religion where a Klingon warrior killed their gods, and in their belief Klingons who live according to those tenants get to live in a pseudo-Valhalla.
** The Bajorans are a highly religious alien race, with the majority following peaceful teachings and a minority of violent extremists.
*** Of some note, the Bajoran religion is of interest because their "Gods" actually exist, and can be (somewhat incomprehensibly) talked to (a rarity outside of [[Science Fantasy]]). In other words, they were frequently a method of having some religion vs. science debates where the divine entity (A) explicitly exists, (B) is explainable as "sufficiently advanced and unusual aliens", and (C) aren't jerks, just bad at communication with those of us who experience time linearly--in other words, with a deck that wasn't quite as badly stacked. The religiosity was meant to be as a way of contrasting the Starfleet personnel with the native population and to draw a parallel between Bajorans under the Cardassian Occupation and various real world recently freed oppressed religious-slash-ethnic groups.
** <s>In the fifth Star Trek movie, ''"The Final Frontier"'', some of the crew steal the Enterprise to look for God and instead find a powerful alien being impersonating God in the center of the universe</s> '''Just like there is no live-action movie of Avatar: The Last Airbender, there is totally no Star Trek 5!'''

===World of Darkness===
* Very large books could be written about religion and [[World of Darkness]]/Chronicles of Darkness. We'll just cover a few highlights:
** From [[Vampire: The Requiem]], there's the the Lancea et Sanctum, which might be best described as "Christianity for Vampires", and the Circle of the Crone, which is "Pagan Vampires". Both have Vampire miracles on tap (pun intended).
** [[Hunter: The Vigil]] has various religious organizations among the Compacts and Conspiracies, some very similar to real world ones, others...not so much.
** [[Mage: The Ascension]] has various religious Traditions, portrayed in that highly-stereotypical and highly-depending-on-the-author way typical of old WoD.

==See also==
* [[Mythology]]
* [[True Faith]], a common mechanic to weaponize religion in [[Urban Fantasy]].

[[Category:Not related]]
[[Category:History]]

Slavery

2020-10-09T04:15:04Z

2406:3400:20F:FFC0:8CCA:E4F7:8C42:C204: /* History stuff */

[[image:Slaves sugar cane.jpg|thumb|300px|right|Slaves harvesting sugar cane, not a lot fun for them. It is really good in tea, though.]]
{{Topquote|I came here in peace, seeking gold and slaves.|Jack Handey, ''What I'd Say to the Martians''}}

'''Slavery''' is the institution of owning other humans ([[Hard Science Fiction|as well as other sapient]] [[Soft Science Fiction|beings by extrapolation]]) as property. As slaves are bound to their owners, they were prevented from leaving or refusing to work under threat of immediate violence for disobedience. When two groups would fight, it was not uncommon for the victor to capture some of the defeated along with the goods or territory and put them to work. Later on, as long-distance trade improved, they also began selling said captives to other cultures. The children of slaves usually were slaves themselves, though this was not universal.

In other cases, people would be put into slavery as a punishment, e.g. for failure to pay their debts, or voluntarily such as an alternative to paying for something. Some systems of slavery even offered opportunities for, like the Devshirmeh system in Ottoman Empire, where boys taken from among Christian vassals who were bright enough could actually end up as Grand Vizier of the Empire (with a few caveats; they had to be smart and all of them had to be converted to Islam - willingly or not... either way they weren't allowed to stay Christian).

In addition to the practice of owning human beings as chattel, there are other contemporary and historical arrangements so similar to slavery that they are referred to as slavery informally or at that point in history. A few of these include serfdom ([[Peasant|serfs]] were not owned, but they were bound to the land owned by [[noble]]s and are required to work the noble's land 2-3 days per week for free and keep what else they could grow-keep-trade), indentured servitude in colonial America (in exchange for passage to the new world being paid, criminal fines or to discharge a debt, someone would be indentured to a contract holder and have to work off their debt over a number of years such as British criminals), impressment and shanghaiing (where people were kidnapped from ports or ships and forced to serve as sailors with said debt not being hereditary), the various forced labor programs used by the [[Nazi]]s, [[Communism|Communists]], and other despotic regimes and the victims of human trafficking which is still ongoing today.

== History stuff ==
The oldest surviving codex of laws yet discovered in the world, the Code of Ur-Nammu, has multiple references to slaves, so slavery has been with humanity for a ''very'' long time. Slavery was practiced in virtually every culture at some point throughout their history; as soon as a people progressed from a hunter-gathering and nomadic culture to an agrarian one it became more convenient to look for ways to increase productivity and lower expenses. Before the advent of modern machinery, that way was some flavor of slave workforce since you generally had to spend less resources on a slave than you would on your fellow clan member.

In the ancient world, basically all civilizations made use of slavery to some degree or another. Prisoners of war were taken as slaves and made to ply their trade for their conquerors, or were sold abroad for goods. Since civilizations would wax and wane from time to time, the enslavers of one generation might end up enslaved in the next. The Greeks made heavier-than-usual use of slaves, and the Romans even more so. The Persians did not use slavery themselves and tried to limit it, but slavery did exist in their Empire among their conquered vassals. Slaves worked in every field from miners (who were quickly worked to death) to farmers, to factory workers and skilled craftsmen, to entertainers, teachers and doctors (particularly Greeks who could buy their freedom in a year, or even less if skilled) and even up to high ranking government officials in the Empire. Ancient Romans used to grumble about all these slaves coming in stealing people's jobs (this sentence is not a joke).

Slavery existed in [[Medieval Stasis|Medieval Europe]], but declined after the year 1,000 AD in a lot of places, especially the north. The Vikings practiced slavery, acquiring them primarily on expeditions or raids in Eastern Europe and the British Isles. They could also obtain Viking slaves at home, as crimes like murder and thievery were punished with slavery or through doing business with the Arab Slave Trade. The basis for the modern English word slave gets its roots here, as the Slavic races were so often put upon that they pretty much named [[Grimdark|the ordeal after them]] (and [[Skub|arguably providing the first example of race-based slavery]]). When Arabs, and later the Europeans, discovered the continent of Africa, there was much contact between local tribes and foreigners on this subject. Many nations would take slaves from the peoples of Africa abetted at times by local slavery systems among African people themselves (see below).

This brought up the matter of racial slavery. In the Classical World (for example, Ancient Rome), slaves were basically from everywhere in the Empire and many places beyond and the children of freed slaves in Rome became more Romans. While Slavic people were an arguable of case of racial slavery due to being popular choices of slaves, it was between the Arab Slave Trade and the Atlantic Slave Trade that the idea of racial slavery was prominently raised and studied. Slavery is not a nice thing even at the best of times, but racial slavery adds to it the conception that an enslaved race is inferior, doomed to servitude forever, and that people from it are unfit for anything else. Those caught up in it had little hope of ever elevating themselves from a state of being a form of livestock with the hands for manual labor. Slave ships sailed from Europe to Africa loaded with manufactured goods, textiles, guns and gunpowder which they traded for captives taken in war, who were then packed in like sardines to be shipped off to the New World. There they loaded up on tobacco and sugar and sailed back to Europe. [[Grimdark|In Brazil and most of the Caribbean between 1600 and 1800, the slave population never was able to achieve natural replacement rates due to a high death rate from overwork and abuse by their masters]]. The American system of slavery (aka "the peculiar institution") would arguably require an entire article of its own, but since we'd rather not try to poke that hornet's nest it's enough to say that it was not much better than the Caribbean experience and was only abolished by Republican President Abraham Lincoln after the American Civil War.

Africa has had slavery between its various tribes and kingdoms for millennia, even to the present day. Between this and many foreign civilizations making extensive use of African slaves, the history of slavery in Africa is complicated and violent. In Africa, even prior to the Arab slave trade or the Atlantic/European slave trade, slavery happened in all forms from ancient times. This was enacted between many of the various tribes and nations of Africa; however, in many African societies where slavery was prevalent, the enslaved people were not treated as chattel slaves and had certain rights in a system similar to indentured servitude elsewhere in the world. When the Arab slave trade - and centuries later, the Atlantic slave trade - began, many of the local slave systems began supplying captives for slave markets outside Africa. They also supplied local criminals and captives from rival tribes or nations to the Arab, European or American slave trades. This means African slave traders unwittingly helped fan the flames of the issue of racial slavery, unaware of the dehumanization these buyers would subject them to - and that's before the Scramble for Africa caused many of them to become slaves themselves.

In the Ottoman Empire, whose system can ''arguably'' be seen as similar to the Eastern Roman Empire, the system was more or less the same, but with a small possibility of moving up if you were a Christian (or claiming to be one) because Christians (and Jews) are considered "people of the Book", meaning the worthiest of non-Muslim people according to Islam. ''Devshirmeh'' is the name for the system of taking one boy out of 40 houses from the population of Christian vassals in the Ottoman Empire; this mostly meant Balkan Christians, with the inclusion of Bosniak Muslims while Armenians, Romani and Jews were explicitly excluded. The taken boys were converted to Islam one way or another, then made into elite monastic troops called Janissaries (new soldiers). If they proved intelligent, they were sent to the Imperial Academy in Enderun to become bureaucrats. Being slaves, they had no ''habeas corpus'' and could be executed at any time - in theory. In practice, while the threat hanging over their heads was very real, they could also push back against this by working their way into military ranks, marrying Ottoman princesses, engineering palace coups to kill off sultans who didn't pay them enough, or even investing back in their native countries such as Bosnia (the reason Bosniaks mourned the fall of the Janissary institution while EVERYONE ELSE celebrated it). The dangers of the ''devshirmeh'' system didn't stop some families from actively sending their kids there in desperation, often to the point of bribing the Janissary Aghas.

Female slaves in the Ottoman Empire didn't get as many opportunities, with the "best" option allowed to them being to end up as palace concubines. But this contained more backstabbing than a Tzeentchian party, and few died peacefully. Ironically, many concubines who ended up marrying Viziers or military officers ended up in better positions than concubines who were gunning for the top spot. With the advent of nationalism, the French Revolution, and the growing need for military reforms bitterly opposed by the Janissaries, the system's flaws burst like rotting cysts, and Ottoman-style slavery went the way of the Dodo in 1847 thanks to [[Noblebright|Abdulmajid's reforms]]. The harem was numerous enough by then, and the freed whites went on with their lives while the black population [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Turks settled in Western Turkey as free farmers].

Eurasia, particularly Ukraine, was the hotbed of slavery for the Ottoman Empire, with the port city of Caffa being the continent's major slave ports. The Russians liberated it from the Crimean Khanate, whose major income was thousands of taken women and children from villages, supplying the Ottoman Empire's need for European/white women. Evliya Çelebi even wrote about the despair and cries of women separated from their children and then sold separately.

But the problem was particularly acute in Russia. Tzar Alexander II officially ended serfdom in Russia via two edicts in 1861 and 1866, liberating roughly 33 million people (23 million private serfs and at least 9 million state serfs) from obligations. But this was achieved by simply taxing all of them and paying the tax to their former lords. While this tax was intended to expire, ultimately the hardship this caused combined the Great War and other factors would lead to the abdication of the Tzar and the Russian Revolution.

In contrast to the above, slavery is virtually never mentioned in [[Oriental Adventures|east Asian-inspired]] settings. This has some basis in history in certain areas: The [[Mongols]]' nomadic lifestyle was not conductive to widespread slavery, though they did take some captives as slaves ([[Genghis motherfucking Khan|Genghis Khan]] himself was briefly a slave in his youth), and during the Mongol Empire's runs on conquering China people were often little better than slaves anyway. The Chinese themselves went through several periods of loosening and then making stricter laws surrounding slavery, usually rallying around who was in charge following their frequent wars to unify, only to break apart once more. The question of working conditions in China and comparisons to slavery along with "prison camps" came up during and after Mao Zedong's rise to power, but rather than poke that hornet's nest suffice to say these stories have more than a grain of truth to them (there's a reason for the stereotype of the Chinese sweatshop worker). The inhabitants of the Ryukyu islands "would die over" slavery rather than participate. Slavery in Asia was probably most prolific on the Korean peninsula, who had a caste system, but population growth, a few slave revolts and modernization eventually rendered it less than palatable.

The earliest European reports of [[Japan]] mention that, though it existed there, slavery was rare and primarily inflicted on debtors and prisoners of war. The main recorded examples are the maids/concubines of the rich, and those brought by Europeans themselves. One European held slave's physical stature impressed Oda Nobunaga so much that he purchased him, freed him and elevated him to samurai status. This man would be known as Yasuke, [[Anime|the only black samurai]]. During the Sengoku a not-insignificant of Japanese prisoners of war were sold to the Europeans for foreign trade until 1587/1595, when Toyotomi Hideyoshi banned it.

==Slavery in Fantasy==
Because slavery is viewed as such a moral repugnance throughout the modern world, it is an easy way for lazy [[GM]]s to get a reaction from players. Slavery being one of the common features of a setting's bad guys makes for an easy way to establish that civilization or organization is [[Alignment|evil]]. A bunch of armed guys attack a peaceful village with chains and whips to catch its residents, bind them, and take them to their dwelling, where they're treated worse than how we treat livestock and forced to: toil, be beaten, probably raped, and made to fight to the death in arenas for the amusement and benefit of some sick bastards? That is more than enough reason to establish "these guys are bad, go [[murderhobo|kill their asses]]" regardless of alignment; even Evil characters can simply indulge their drive to kill by offing slavers, and exploit the freed villagers and their families for more favors - particularly Lawful Evil ones.

However, this is not always the case; both the perceived "good" and "bad" factions can also engage in slavery, although how they do it usually defines who's good and who's bad (regardless of how minute the difference is). Take [[Araby]] and the [[Dark Elves]] in the ''[[Warhammer Fantasy Battles|Warhammer Fantasy]]'' setting, for example. Both factions engage in wanton slavery and have no qualms about it being a common thing everywhere. However, what sort of defines each of them is how they see their slaves. In Araby, slaves have several rights, the children of slaves are guaranteed by law to not be slaves, and particularly cruel mistreatment of slaves will result in punishment to the masters and the mistreated becoming free. The Dark Elves consider all non-Dark Elves to be beneath them and will torture and maim their slaves, just because they think it is fun.

Though it is found in both, slavery is more common in fantasy settings than in science fiction. In your typical Tolkien knockoff, the way you go about digging rocks, harvesting lumber, tilling fields and raising buildings is normally with strong backs. In most sci-fi worlds, why have a bunch of slaves working in an irradiated asteroid space mine when you could have a bunch of robots who don't need slave drivers, don't require food or air, won't plot escape/rebellion ([[Men of Iron|'''hopefully''']]), and are stronger and easier to repair if damaged? ''[[Warhammer 40,000]]'' actually justifies having slaves fairly well in that, in the [[Imperium]], such automation is considered techno-[[heresy]] (or simply decayed like spaceship artillery loaders) due to a robot rebellion happening in the past and the risk of Chaos corruption for the machines, while the [[Dark Eldar]] are sick bastards who need to consume souls of psychically susceptible species (human youngsters are prime specimens, while Tau souls taste bland and weak) and get their rocks off at making others miserable.

Slavery of a [[/d/|certain kind]] is a common feature of many [[Magical Realm]]s.

==A Digression About the Economics of Slavery==
For serious worldbuilders who have it, you need to consider what economics already considers a long-standing question: Is slavery profitable in the long term, and if so where?

The consensus answer among economic historians to the first one is that yes, slavery can be profitable, but only in those situations where technology does not offer a faster/cheaper/safer solution. Indeed, most ancient Empires (Egyptian, Greek, Roman) had some form of institutionalized slavery that allowed them to endure. This being said, the very concept of slavery has some serious downsides (that have nothing to do with morality) dooming it in the long run. The short answer to the "where" question is "cash crops and other agriculture, unskilled labor, and a bit of mining", in roughly that order of profitability.

The practical downsides that doom slavery include, but are not limited to:

*First of all, in any area where sabotage is a serious concern slavery is usually a non-starter. For a recent example, look at the [[Nazi]]s using forced labor to build their weapons later in the war, and the quality of said weapons. That rules out most semi-modern mining, as well as just about any industry with any degree of mechanization and a surprising amount of agriculture.
** Despite mining being the stereotypical use of slaves in fiction, mining past a certain depth is sufficiently deadly and expensive that semi-skilled labor is '''absolutely required''', and a slave has a nice way to commit suicide AND hurt his master's profits at the same time. While ''other'' exploitative practices may be used, the training required means actual slavery-based mining is very much a no-go save for tasks such as the very basic work of breaking surface mineral seams, as well as open-pit mining, where "getting stuck" is not an issue and carrying loads to processing stations a la South American silver mining done by Spanish or simple stone quarries where all one needs doing is to hit a stone with a pick and carry the result to storage.
*Second, unless reproduction is heavily encouraged, slave populations have a tendency to drop over time, especially compared to relatively free populations (even ignoring manumission and escapes), and five seconds of thought on slaves' living conditions should lead to a few obvious conclusions as to why. So if you want to keep up, you need to constantly raid (or trade with raiders) for more slaves. Last time this was done beyond the 16th century, the United States wrecked the entire Barbary coast with artillery and freed slaves. So any "sustainable" raiding *will* attract military threats that will make sure any slave taken will eventually be more expensive than a free worker who is A) already available and willing, B) lives within the empire and C) has many motivations, such as family, welfare and [[Tzeentch|hopes for a good future]]).
*Third, slave-holding societies are usually economically out-competed by non-slave-holding societies once military considerations are either removed or temporarily equalized. There are plenty of reasons for this, but the big ones are the twin spectres of Incentives (which align more closely in non-slave societies) and Efficiency (effort you expend on keeping slaves from escaping or rebelling could usually be more productively used elsewhere, and that's just to ''start'', saying nothing of potentially intelligent slaves wasted in labor they are not optimal for rather than being educated and made into scientists).
*Fourth, if slaves are owned in large numbers they start to displace the local non-slaves. This is not a simple case of [[Meme|"DEY TOOK AHR JERBS"]], as the Romans can attest: when large numbers of slaves started to displace local farmers who were forced to sell their land for some reason or the other, said ex-farmers were driven to the cities, where there were not a lot of jobs either. This bred poverty, and from poverty rose a class dissatisfied with their lot in life as they starve while the rich grow fat. And from this rose political and civilian unrest, which is never good for any state. In the case of the Romans, this gave birth to a populist dictator, Julius Caesar and his adoptive son Octavian, which created a major precedent for all modern dictatorships and bread-and-circuses states.

[[Category:History]]