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Spiritual liege

2019-01-22T07:17:47Z

2600:1:9B85:4329:CCCA:F9DB:9CC7:CB18: /* OBJECTION */

{{heresy}}
{{MattWard}}

[[Image:Wardass.jpg|thumb|Yeah, it's kind of like this.]]

A "liege" is a sovereign to whom one owes fealty. Therefore, a "'''spiritual''' liege" would be a person to whom one is ideologically loyal, like a thinker whose philosophy one followes.

This phrase has come to be widely used among fans of [[Warhammer 40,000]] after [[Matt Ward]] gave [[Ultramarines#Quotes|an interview]] explaining why ''[[Codex]]: [[Space Marines]]'' had so many [[Ultramarines]] characters in them: "[t]he Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best [[Space Marines]] ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the [[Codex Astartes | heritage]] of [[Roboute Guilliman|Guilliman]] and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a [[Space Wolves|few]] [[Black Templars|fringe]] [[Grey Knights|exceptions]]... all [[Space Marine Chapter]]s want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize [[Marneus Calgar]] as their '''Spiritual Liege.'''" (The real reason was it was going to be ''Codex: Ultramarines'' until at the last second [[Games Workshop|GW]] changed their minds.)

Apparently the heresy of acknowledging someone other than the [[God-Emperor of Mankind|Big E]] as their liege, be it physically or spiritually, is lost on the Wardian Space Marines.

Because it makes ''total sense'' why [[FAIL|they'd venerate the Ultramarines and not ''their own Chapter Masters and Primarchs'']].

Since then, "spiritual liege" has been used as an insulting way to refer to Roboute Guilliman, Marneus Calgar, and Matt Ward. It is also used ironically, to make the point that one's spiritual liege is '''not''' one of those three. In ages past, the term was used instead of the phrase "Matt Ward" on /tg/ (since if you should ever type "Matt Ward" or "Matthew Ward" in the text box, it'll count your entire post as spam).

In the [[Horus Heresy]] novels it's heavily implied that the remnants of the [[First Founding#Two Unknown Legions|two lost Legions]] were absorbed into the Ultramarines, after being loyalty-checked into nigh oblivion by the [[Space Wolves|Emperor's Executioners]]. Therefore a large number of so-called Successor Chapters aren't really Ultramarines but venerate Guilliman over their original [[Primarch]]. On the other hand, when your alternative is facing down the [[Space Wolves]], you'd pledge anyone, even [[Abaddon]], as your liege.

Amusingly enough Abaddon is in fact the [[Chaos]] Spiritual Liege, as many renegade [[Chaos Space Marines]] do renounce their Primarchs and venerate him when they join. Actually absolutely appropriate if Abaddon is in fact somehow a clone of [[Horus]] (even if weak weak weak in comparison).

==Why this isn't QUITE as dumb as you think==

Other than the fact that technically Ultramarines were always viewed ''by non-Space Marines'' as the prime example of what it means to be a Space Marine and if it wasn't for Guilliman, the Chapter would not exist...

Ward's work is poorly worded but there's some truth in it. There is rather a large number of Chapters that don't know who their Primarch is, either due to the [[Imperium of Man|Imperium's]] [[Administratum|exceptionally professional record-keeping]] or because [[Inquisition|it was covered up]], often due to the [[gene-seed]] used coming from a traitor Legion or being somehow tainted from the start. The lineage of some Chapters could be guessed based upon key traits, but many others are just too "generic". The [[Soul Drinkers]] thought they were [[Imperial Fists]] successors, and the [[Blood Ravens]] are probably <s>also sons of Guilliman assuming the "loyalist [[Thousand Sons]]" theory doesn't pan out (although it probably will)</s> successors to the Thousand Sons (check out this video theorizing about it!: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4m8HH5zy7w]). Since it's a common fact that Ultramarines are the prime and favored source of gene-seed due to their low mutation rate it is a safe bet to assume the Chapter is one of their successors; [[Dark Angels]] successors are irrevocably inducted into "the Unforgiven (basically Legion Building)" without exception, [[Blood Angels]] successors all have [[Blood Angels#Red Thirst|Red Thirst]], the [[Raven Guard|Poets]] and Imperial Fists both have notable and consistent defects in their gene-seed, and neither the [[Salamanders|rastas]], nor the [[Space Wolves|furries]] (although the Space Wolves can't actually make successors) have any real habit of forming successor chapters, the former due to lack of numbers during the [[Second Founding]], and the latter courtesy of Fenris nature or Emperor's plan or whatever, so it kinda narrows down the list of who your Primarch could be (specifically, [[Roboute Guilliman|Rowboat]], [[Jaghatai Khan|Genghis Khan]], and [[Ferrus Manus|Metal Hands]]. Even then, both the [[White Scars|mongols]] and [[Iron Hands|the ultimate Mechanicum bros]] only have a handful of successors while the Ultramarines have a large majority.).

The novel ''The Unremembered Empire'' shows the Ultramarines have a number of [[Traitor Legion Loyalists]] within their ranks, even saying their battle cry "We march for Macragge!", one notable group was a full [[Iron Warriors]] Chapter, notice an Ultramarine successor [[Silver Skulls| has similar colors]] to Iron Warriors? Humorously they've rallied to Guilliman's foster mother.

And if none of that calms you down, just pretend that Ward's codex is just propaganda collected from [[Macragge]] that the Smurfs stick up to make their citizens feel better.

==OBJECTION==
It is frequently touted that the Ultramarines have the most Successor Chapters. This is mainly because, in addition to their more stable than average gene-seed, they were the largest Legion at the time of the Second Founding. However, it is widely suspected that the Ultramarines absorbed the Legions of the [[Primarch#Two Missing Primarchs|two missing Primarchs]]. Now, it's entirely possible (and probable) that a fair number of these Space Marines would be running around at the time of the Second Founding. So when the Ultramarines legion was splitting up, it's entirely possible that Chapters were made from the gene-seed of the missing Primarchs. Therefore, whilst it's still probable that the Smurfs have the most Successor Chapters, there might not be as many as you'd think... given that it's entirely possible that dozens, if not hundreds of Chapters are actually descended from the missing Primarchs. Also the lack of losses due to arriving late to the siege of terra(#blameLorgar) also helps them to the spot of largest post-hersey legion. While they did lead the scouring of the traitor legions they were fighting retreating and mostly leaderless forces and the Imperial Fists willingly chose to go for the hardest objective of the the whole campaign.

[[Category:Meme]] [[Category:Warhammer 40,000]][[Category:Matt Ward]]

Spiritual liege

2019-01-22T07:16:11Z

2600:1:9B85:4329:CCCA:F9DB:9CC7:CB18: /* OBJECTION */

{{heresy}}
{{MattWard}}

[[Image:Wardass.jpg|thumb|Yeah, it's kind of like this.]]

A "liege" is a sovereign to whom one owes fealty. Therefore, a "'''spiritual''' liege" would be a person to whom one is ideologically loyal, like a thinker whose philosophy one followes.

This phrase has come to be widely used among fans of [[Warhammer 40,000]] after [[Matt Ward]] gave [[Ultramarines#Quotes|an interview]] explaining why ''[[Codex]]: [[Space Marines]]'' had so many [[Ultramarines]] characters in them: "[t]he Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best [[Space Marines]] ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the [[Codex Astartes | heritage]] of [[Roboute Guilliman|Guilliman]] and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a [[Space Wolves|few]] [[Black Templars|fringe]] [[Grey Knights|exceptions]]... all [[Space Marine Chapter]]s want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize [[Marneus Calgar]] as their '''Spiritual Liege.'''" (The real reason was it was going to be ''Codex: Ultramarines'' until at the last second [[Games Workshop|GW]] changed their minds.)

Apparently the heresy of acknowledging someone other than the [[God-Emperor of Mankind|Big E]] as their liege, be it physically or spiritually, is lost on the Wardian Space Marines.

Because it makes ''total sense'' why [[FAIL|they'd venerate the Ultramarines and not ''their own Chapter Masters and Primarchs'']].

Since then, "spiritual liege" has been used as an insulting way to refer to Roboute Guilliman, Marneus Calgar, and Matt Ward. It is also used ironically, to make the point that one's spiritual liege is '''not''' one of those three. In ages past, the term was used instead of the phrase "Matt Ward" on /tg/ (since if you should ever type "Matt Ward" or "Matthew Ward" in the text box, it'll count your entire post as spam).

In the [[Horus Heresy]] novels it's heavily implied that the remnants of the [[First Founding#Two Unknown Legions|two lost Legions]] were absorbed into the Ultramarines, after being loyalty-checked into nigh oblivion by the [[Space Wolves|Emperor's Executioners]]. Therefore a large number of so-called Successor Chapters aren't really Ultramarines but venerate Guilliman over their original [[Primarch]]. On the other hand, when your alternative is facing down the [[Space Wolves]], you'd pledge anyone, even [[Abaddon]], as your liege.

Amusingly enough Abaddon is in fact the [[Chaos]] Spiritual Liege, as many renegade [[Chaos Space Marines]] do renounce their Primarchs and venerate him when they join. Actually absolutely appropriate if Abaddon is in fact somehow a clone of [[Horus]] (even if weak weak weak in comparison).

==Why this isn't QUITE as dumb as you think==

Other than the fact that technically Ultramarines were always viewed ''by non-Space Marines'' as the prime example of what it means to be a Space Marine and if it wasn't for Guilliman, the Chapter would not exist...

Ward's work is poorly worded but there's some truth in it. There is rather a large number of Chapters that don't know who their Primarch is, either due to the [[Imperium of Man|Imperium's]] [[Administratum|exceptionally professional record-keeping]] or because [[Inquisition|it was covered up]], often due to the [[gene-seed]] used coming from a traitor Legion or being somehow tainted from the start. The lineage of some Chapters could be guessed based upon key traits, but many others are just too "generic". The [[Soul Drinkers]] thought they were [[Imperial Fists]] successors, and the [[Blood Ravens]] are probably <s>also sons of Guilliman assuming the "loyalist [[Thousand Sons]]" theory doesn't pan out (although it probably will)</s> successors to the Thousand Sons (check out this video theorizing about it!: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4m8HH5zy7w]). Since it's a common fact that Ultramarines are the prime and favored source of gene-seed due to their low mutation rate it is a safe bet to assume the Chapter is one of their successors; [[Dark Angels]] successors are irrevocably inducted into "the Unforgiven (basically Legion Building)" without exception, [[Blood Angels]] successors all have [[Blood Angels#Red Thirst|Red Thirst]], the [[Raven Guard|Poets]] and Imperial Fists both have notable and consistent defects in their gene-seed, and neither the [[Salamanders|rastas]], nor the [[Space Wolves|furries]] (although the Space Wolves can't actually make successors) have any real habit of forming successor chapters, the former due to lack of numbers during the [[Second Founding]], and the latter courtesy of Fenris nature or Emperor's plan or whatever, so it kinda narrows down the list of who your Primarch could be (specifically, [[Roboute Guilliman|Rowboat]], [[Jaghatai Khan|Genghis Khan]], and [[Ferrus Manus|Metal Hands]]. Even then, both the [[White Scars|mongols]] and [[Iron Hands|the ultimate Mechanicum bros]] only have a handful of successors while the Ultramarines have a large majority.).

The novel ''The Unremembered Empire'' shows the Ultramarines have a number of [[Traitor Legion Loyalists]] within their ranks, even saying their battle cry "We march for Macragge!", one notable group was a full [[Iron Warriors]] Chapter, notice an Ultramarine successor [[Silver Skulls| has similar colors]] to Iron Warriors? Humorously they've rallied to Guilliman's foster mother.

And if none of that calms you down, just pretend that Ward's codex is just propaganda collected from [[Macragge]] that the Smurfs stick up to make their citizens feel better.

==OBJECTION==
It is frequently touted that the Ultramarines have the most Successor Chapters. This is mainly because, in addition to their more stable than average gene-seed, they were the largest Legion at the time of the Second Founding. However, it is widely suspected that the Ultramarines absorbed the Legions of the [[Primarch#Two Missing Primarchs|two missing Primarchs]]. Now, it's entirely possible (and probable) that a fair number of these Space Marines would be running around at the time of the Second Founding. So when the Ultramarines legion was splitting up, it's entirely possible that Chapters were made from the gene-seed of the missing Primarchs. Therefore, whilst it's still probable that the Smurfs have the most Successor Chapters, there might not be as many as you'd think... given that it's entirely possible that dozens, if not hundreds of Chapters are actually descended from the missing Primarchs. Also the lack of losses due to arriving late to the siege of terra(#blameLorgar) also helps them to the spot of largest post-hersey legion. While they did lead the scouring of the traitor legions they were fighting retareting and mostly leaderless forces and the Imperial fists willingly chose to go for the hardest objective of the the whole campaign.

[[Category:Meme]] [[Category:Warhammer 40,000]][[Category:Matt Ward]]