2d4chan - User contributions [en]

Mary Sue

2019-03-06T05:11:12Z

2601:147:4300:1949:23:2294:DF29:753A: /* How Can I Tell If My Character Is A Mary Sue? */

[[Category:Mary Sue]]
{{HurfDurf}}

[[Image:Marysuetest.jpg|500px|right]]

Originally, a '''Mary Sue''' is a character that is shamelessly self-inserted, poorly developed, without flaws and stupidly overpowered. [[/tg/]] hates [[:Category:Mary Sue|Mary Sues]].

Unfortunately, after so much [[rage]] and so many [[troll]] threads, /tg/'s definition of Mary Sue has become blurred to the point that any character at all can be (and probably has been) accused of being a Mary Sue on even the flimsiest of pretenses.

Some accept nothing less than the above description, and will sooner gut you then look twice if you say it's anything else. Others prefer a more generalized definition, which refers to an overly-idealized character who exerts an unjust amount of influence upon their respective setting or story. Others still carry this meaning out to extremes and use the term to describe anyone who isn't a homeless junkie or a brooding sociopath with an alignment of Chaotic Batshit Insane.

However, there is a conundrum regarding the definition. If the character is overpowered, idealized and part of an established story (such as some portrayals of Wolverine and Batman), some say that this is not a Mary Sue, as they are a canon character in an original story. For them, the term "Canon Sue" is used. The only difference between a Mary Sue and a Canon Sue (I'd like to take the time to apologize to any real-life people named "Sue" who are reading this) is a Canon Sue is an established character in the story/wish-fulfillment for the creator of the story (NOTE: few people will admit if the fictional character they create is for wish-fulfillment). For the sake of this page, the definition of Mary Sue will also include Canon Sues.

Another problem is when people use the term "Mary Sue" to refer to a "creator's pet"; a character that part of the fanbase dislikes but is adored by the creator of the character and gets treatment such as increasing focus, magnifying the importance of their role, and having the other characters talk about how awesome they are in painful ignorance — or sometimes in spite — of the fans' obvious hatred. This is not a Mary Sue though a character can be both; the two types share common traits and a Creator's Pet is more easily defined. For example; [[Marneus Calgar]] is a creator's pet, while some characters who are both Mary Sues and creator's pets are [[World of Warcraft| Sylvanas (formerly Thrall too until recently)]], [[Alice]] and [[Twilight|Bella]].

It is worth noting, however, that very rarely, authors have the skill to pull off the Mary Sue, creating a character of such epic awesomeness (e.g. [[Star Trek|Jean Luc Picard]]) that no one gives a shit.

Before you ask: Male versions of Mary Sue (and there are plenty) are known as Gary Stu or Marty Stu (both work, with usage depending on whether you prefer it to share initials or to rhyme), although for the purposes of sanity, we'll default to "Mary Sue" when referring to them.

==So, what's this "Mary Sue" thing got to do with /tg/?==

In short: [[NPC|GMPC's]], [[Elminster]]-types, [[Matt Ward]]-types, and [[Elf]]aboos.

# GMPC's have their own section in our [[NPC]] article, so we'll direct you there.
# Settings have a tendency to grow Sue-level characters if they have a sufficient number of high-powered NPCs. This is because an author needs ''somebody'' to impose some stability to the setting, and so you usually wind up needing a character that has many traits of the Mary Sue. And from there, it only takes a few writing mistakes to go into Mary Sue territory head first.
# Certain authors (and any setting with many authors will probably eventually find themselves with at least one of these) want to include Perfect Heroes or Perfect Villains in their settings. The problem with Perfect Heroes is that they tend to be just one or two steps from Mary Suedom, and these authors are usually bad enough writers that the resulting "Hero" goes veering off into Suedom like a plane that loses both wings goes veering off into the ground.
# When imagining a species or race, some authors lose sight of the concepts of competitive balance and competitive advantage and make one race superior to all the others, forgetting that the rule in good storytelling is that flaws and limitations are more interesting than powers (for example, any given Superman story is not that interesting unless you lean heavily on either his morality, secret identity, or kryptonite, all of which act as constraints on his power). The most common race to get this treatment are [[Elf]]s, but [[Chakat|other examples exist]].

(Points 2 and 3 overlap, but are distinct enough in cause that they're worth separating.)

==Origin of the Concept==
The name "Mary Sue" comes from a parody of shitty [[Star Trek]] fanfiction called [http://www.wiccananime.com/amslt/amslttrekkiestale ''A Trekkie's Tale''] (no, seriously, that's the origin, look it up if you don't believe me.) First written in [[Old School Roleplaying|1974]] by Paula Smith, the original Lieutenant Mary Sue was a parody of the half-Vulcan jailbait and other shameless self-inserts that had been clogging up the Star Trek fanfic magazines. The trolling was so epic that her name became permanently ingrained in the vocabulary of every fandom on the planet, and this makes Paula Smith a paragon of trolls.

The term is commonly used by [[troll]]s, and can most easily be spotted by a blanket accusation of a character being a Sue without attempting to justify actual reasons behind it. More clever trolls will attempt to offer some explanation that is deliberately intended to get under the offended party's skin.

==A Few Special Cases of Sues==
Here are a few complicating factors in any simple definition of what "Mary Sue" means, because critics are mean like that:

===Villain Sues===
Note that the Mary Sue need not be the hero of the piece. A large minority of Sues are villains (either protagonist or antagonist).

Some well-known characters with a tendency in the hands of bad writers to become Villain Sues include [[Batman | The Joker]], Magneto, Doctor Doom, and [[Star Wars | Admiral Thrawn]]. And then there's the flat-out Villain Sues in a single writer's canon, such as Red Hulk's initial appearances, or the show version of Ramsay Bolton. Or, to be more directly /tg/ relevant, [[Fabius Bile]] and [[World of Darkness | Samuel Haight]].

===Sue Species And Orders===
Further, it's possible for the Sueness to be spread across an entire species or other group of people. The accusation is more commonly (and more properly) thrown around on the species side of that line (Internalized Fantastic Racism be a Real World thing, yo). The best-known cases of species-wide-Suedom are probably [[Chakats]] and any given [[Elf]]aboos' version of Elves. The best known case of a Sue Organization or Order are the [[Ultramarines|Ultrasmurfs]].

===The AntiSue and Sympathy Sue===
You'd think that the opposite of a Mary Sue wouldn't be a kind of Mary Sue all it's own? Well, you'd be wrong. Comes in two flavors:

* The perpetrator of the Sue might think "I'll just pull a George Costanza, and do the opposite of my instincts!", not recognizing that what made their instincts bad was more in amplitude than in direction.
* The perpetrator of the Sue is going for Sympathy. Which, again, is only a change in direction, not in amplitude.

===The Comedy Sue===
This is where a Character is a Sue and they are utterly perfect, but the audience is not supposed to be in awe of how good they are, we are supposed to laugh at the ridiculousness of it.

This kind of Sue can actually work; for examples, see the anime "Haven't You Heard I'm Sakamoto" and to a lesser extent "One Punch Man" or even Popeye at times for examples of this kind of Sue. They never fail, but we're suppose to laugh at them doing it.

The methods used for this humor range from deconstructive parodies (e.g. "We've needed a new house here at Hogwarts to accommodate all the...special girls, so welcome to House Sparklypoo!") to straight deconstruction (Take One Punch Man's Caped Baldy: instead of people fawning over him, nobody believes his feats and call him a fraud, while he's also constantly frustrated by the lack of a good challenge) to anti-climax (God-Man, pictured below in this article) to the whole thing being a mere joke delivery system (classic Bugs Bunny or Popeye cartoons).

'''''However''''', in order for this to work you need your tongue so far up your cheek it's basically bored out through the other sides, and you actually need talent. And the talent part applies even when the character exists solely for joke delivery (and thus requires no characterization beyond a couple of basic traits).

==Watsonian vs. Doylist definition of "Sue"==

A futher complicating factor in any definition of "Mary Sue" is the Watsonian vs. Doyalist definition problem.

For the unfamiliar, criticism sometimes differentiate between a "Watsonian", or "in-universe based" explanation of something (e.g., "Superpowerman got beaten by Evilvillianman because he had the flu!") and a "Doyalist", or "author-centered" explanation (e.g., "Superpowerman got beaten by Evilvillianman because the rest of the story doesn't work if Superpowerman wins that fight.") "Watsonian" and "Doyalist" are named for the fictional, and real life, authors of the Sherlock Holmes stories; Holmes fans being really creepily fond of coming up with Watsonian explanations for plot holes probably helps.

How does this relate to Mary Sue definitions? Well, the two common ways of describing a Sue are Watsonian, where being Overpowered and Always Right is the relevant problem, and the Doyalist definition, where the relationship of the author to the character is the relevant problem. We employ a mixture of the two, because guessing what the author was thinking can get very unreliable very quickly and even when they're questioned about this authors - like any other people - can be blind to their biases or lie. Regardless, the purely power-and-rightness-based definition can easily start returning false results if context and sanity are not considered.

==How Can I Tell If My Character Is A Mary Sue?==
Each "Yes" answer gives your character a piece of Mary Sueness.
[[File:God-Man.gif|thumb|300px|right|God-Man, providing a particularly extreme example (albeit a parody)]]
* Does their personal morality always perfectly match objective reality? To put it another way, is there no difference between describing their opinion and simply narrating what was actually going on in a scene?
* Do they start the story at the pinnacle of achievement and have no way to grow or improve?
** Or do their new skills and abilities come from your ass at just the time they need them?
* Do they have unexplained frequent good luck, even when by all logic they should fail in that area?
* Is it a fan character that is better than the canon characters? (As in, "more powerful and gets all the attention", not "better written". If it's the latter, all the power to you.)
* Do they have physical features, powers or items that are impossible to have or extremely rare going by the rules of the setting (ie; a human with cat eyes and wings with no explanation in real-world based fiction, or a ridiculous item such as a weapon which is [[Noise Marines|chainsaw, electric-guitar and machine-gun combined]] in a swords-and-sorcery setting)?
* Do they have the most powerful ability or power in a setting, without any sacrifices? (For example, a character that can use magic which would destroy any enemy, without any negative effects. But if a character has that ability, and it reduces his lifespan, damages him forever and/or kills everyone including his comrades, it's not ''that'' overpowered.)
* Are they connected to the canon characters or do they become connected to them? This usually takes the form of being a "long-lost" relative or love interest to a canon character.
* Do they get a lot of shilling? For example; do all the canon characters suddenly start talking about a fan character, with their presence in the story largely relegated to providing opportunities for the new character to show how pure, powerful, good-hearted, etc they are?
* Do you never allow other characters to dislike them?
** [[Eragon|Or do you punish those other characters for disliking your character by portraying them negatively and/or making something terrible happen to them]]? (For example; making them unlikable, a secondary villain, or having the one character that dislikes the Mary Sue "coincidentally" have their home destroyed)
* Are they someone's self-proclaimed [[furry|fursona]]? (If so, stop reading this list and burn them for [[heresy]]).
** The Sonichu exception: If the author is making fun of ''somebody else's'' fursona, and isn't a furry themselves, everything is perfectly fine, at least as far as Mary Suedom is concerned.
* Do they always make good decisions? And/or bad ones that are suddenly revealed to have been a good choice?
* Do you use absolutes like "always," "everybody," or "never" when describing their ''abilities''? (Those word being used to describe their ''behavior'' are usually okay, if slightly suspect (bad writers have an attraction to absolutes).)
* Do they feature an entirely contrived "weakness" that doesn't affect them any time it would harm them (such as being clumsy ''unless'' they are required to perform a great feat of athleticism) or isn't really a weakness (such as being too kind or righteous "for their own good") which was clearly added solely so the author could point to it when accused of writing a Sue?
* Is the main problem in the story one that this character can easily fix or solve on their own? (Doesn't count if they're the only character in the story).
*Do they have powers that no-one else has.
* Is it a protagonist character written by Matt Ward, Kim Dal Young, Stephenie Mayer, Karen Traviss, Ayn Rand or Terry <del>Good</del>Badkind? (Note, a Mary Sue can be written by someone who's none of these people.)

Since then, it's been realized that a character doesn't need to be a self-insert to be a Mary Sue, but it helps. Everyone has their own criteria for what makes one, but the big three traits are:
#They are super-powerful/hyper-competent. In established settings, usually more so than canon characters. Better leadership skills than a McDohl, faster than Sonic, etc.
#The story completely revolves around them, even in... no, ESPECIALLY in established settings.
#They can do no wrong. Everyone loves the Mary Sue and defends them even against perfectly reasonable concerns, invariably demonizing people that make these concerns.

Bonus points:
#The Mary Sue's competence doesn't match the creator's knowledge, leading to things like "The greatest Scorpion Clan shinobi EVAR" walking around in broad daylight in stereotypical ninja gear.
#The Mary Sue is a hypocritical monster and the creator is totally blind to this fact.
#Other characters comment on how much better at their own skills the Mary Sue is like they're happy for her, even if the character is known for being arrogant and standoff-ish.
#Characters that don't react well to the Sue's 'harmless pranks' see the light and begin to love the Mary Sue as well.
#Those that don't turn out to be evil spies or something.

A lot of traits (e.g. too-long-names and heterochrome eyes) are assumed to be signs of Mary Sues, but in themselves don't make a character one. This is because the "But I'm '''''Specul'''''" features are more a symptom than a cause, and all of them can be used in a non-Sueish manner (for example, a character with a twenty-part name is meant by the author to be taken as overly pretentious, and is reacted to in-universe as such).
<br clear=all>

==Not Really Mary Sue==

There are many cases of the "Mary Sue" accusation being used against characters who aren't '''quite''' Sues.

Remember, one of the defining traits of Mary Sue is in her relation to the author; either the author sees her as herself/himself, or views her as fap or schlick material (or worse, [[waifu]] material).

As a general rule: If the character makes a mistake, and it's clear that '''the author''' understands that the decision is a mistake, then they're probably not fully a Mary Sue.

==Negating the Mary Sue==
Interestingly, there hasn't been really much written about how to defeat a May Sue aside from trolling, but we may identify a few ways to deal with Mary Sues and even Canon Sues:
*The first one, and quite accessible is character development, while this implies a risk of expanding the infection it is possible to remove a Sue status with a good writer either making fanfiction or a spin-off where the Mary Sue is changed for the better. Examples of this has been seen in long-existent characters which, due to good writing, become more down to earth, with the added bonus of annoying fans of the Sue period of time to no end. After all, one fanfic denies another.
*The second one is retcon, as the easiest way to annihilate a Mary Sue is to achieve the general consensus that it never happened. This is harder of course, as it requires the creators recognizing they made the wrong decisions or at least conceding to the fans. It can happen, but it can only be through official involvement, which requires a lot of fan reaction to happen.
*Third, have them operate in something resembling the real world; their impossible perfectness is treated as impossible by the people within the setting, and their actions have unforeseen consequences. (See, for reference, good quality [[Superman]] and [[Batman]] stories that don't focus on making either character more "human". Or the two protagonists from One-Punch Man, who are very much overpowered, but the focus of the series is a comedy based on ''how little satisfaction'' they find ''due to their overpoweredness''. The comic book Irredeemable is another good example, as the Plutonian comes across as a deconstruction of this character, showing how he uses his powers like an immature man-child and wipes out an entire country all because the entire world doesn't love him completely and adore him, demonstrating how much of a dick he is.)
*Finally, when it comes to reality, badly written characters end falling by their own weight. This is the reason no one remembers most of the overpowered characters added in fanfiction.net while everyone remembers cool, well-molded characters - after all, reality ensues.

Note that like overpoweredness, Mary Suedom is relative to the context of the work. Much like how if in a game everybody is overpowered, nobody actually is; if you are describing everyone in a setting as a Mary Sue, more than likely you're just in a "cast of snowflakes" setting, like superhero comics or transformers. Here, everyone of import is super amazing and special with a lot of weight put on their decisions and actions. (Exception: If one side of the conflict has a monopoly on both awesome and author-intended-sympathy, the "Sue" accusation starts becoming more relevant again.)

[[Troll|Or maybe you're just a dumbass flinging around buzzwords at things you don't like.]]

==Hard Men Making Hard Decisions (While Hard)==

A side note: A specific kind of male version of Mary Sue is also well known. He is usually described as a "Hard Man making Hard Decisions", but works using that description are usually sufficiently closer to "porn logic" than actual human logic that it's usually called "Wank material". (Note that "Hard Women making Hard Decisions" is also very much a thing, but tends to be less common for various reasons.)

Note that not all "Gary"/"Marty Stu"s are Hard Men Making Hard Decisions (While Hard); there exist Stus who are diplomatic or are idealistic but no less annoying. It's just that HMMHD(WH) are the subset that's the most predictable (and thus describable); other equally common types are the kind who makes all female characters want to sleep with him, or otherwise just gender-swapped versions of other Mary Sue archetypes.

=Gallery=
<gallery>
Image:Bloody_Mary_Sues.jpg|Get rid of them before they lay eggs.
File:Marysue_1517.jpg
Image:Avatar shoopface by vfalconi.jpg|How it works.
File:Sparklypoo.jpg
File:Ma-Rey-Sue.jpg|Basically Luke Skywalker but with none of the Darth Vader blood. One of the most skubtastic debates, thanks to the SJWs and vocal Red Pill advocates involved.
</gallery>

=See Also=
[[List of Mary Sues]] WARNING: [[Skub|Opinions]]

=External Links=
*[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue TVTropes' article on Mary Sues], that discusses the phenomenon and its many forms in detail.
*[http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/1379217 sup/tg/ archive] of a hilarious thread with ultimate Mary Sue and PURE ENERGY in it.
*[http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/1383654 sup/tg/ archive] of the Ultimate Mary Sue thread continued.
*[http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/13722924/ sup/tg/ archive]; [[ITT]], the most grimdark setting ever conceived.
*[http://www.big-metto.net/RP_Wiki/index.php?title=Mirabelle_Armitage Mirabelle Armitage, D&D Mary Sure beyond Drizzt.]
*[http://www.ongoingworlds.com/blog/2011/04/the-many-different-types-of-mary-sue/ The many different types of Mary Sue]

Iron Warriors

2019-03-06T02:17:22Z

2601:147:4300:1949:23:2294:DF29:753A: /* Iron Warriors Today */

{{Infobox Traitor Legion
|Name = Iron Warriors
|Heraldry = [[File:Ironwarriorslogo.png|250px]]
|Battle Cry ="Iron Within, Iron Without!"
|Number = IV
|Primarch = [[Perturabo]]
|Original Homeworld = [[Olympia]]
|Current Homeworld = Medrengard
|Champion = Possibly [[Honsou]] or [[Shon'tu]] (Don't forget --Falk-- '''THE WARSMITH''')
|Specialty = Artillery, Attrition,breaking enemy defense
|Strength = Legion Strength (Divided by Grand Companies: Typically 500 to 4000 per Grand Company)
|Allegiance = [[Chaos Undivided]]
|Colours = Black, gold, silver, hazard stripes
}}
{{heresy}}
{{Topquote|Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.|Mark Twain, having never seen the [[Daemonculaba]]}}
{{Topquote|The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are stronger in the broken places.|Ernest Hemingway}}
{{Topquote| No son, you let 'em finish, then you smash it.|pretty much the entire mentality of the iron warriors on the imperial fists. also kearney}}

The '''Iron Warriors''' originated as the fourth of the Emperor's legions of Space Marines, and are today the siege specialists of the Chaos Space Marines.

To your average Imperial citizen or Chaos cultist, the Iron Warriors are the most inhuman of the Chaos Marines. They aren't [[World Eaters|crazy berserkers]] or [[Death Guard|rotting hulks]], but they're just as terrifying because of their cold pragmatism. Yet this pragmatism hides the true terror of the Iron Warriors: the total abandonment of hope, virtue, and belief in good. They're masters of siege warfare. Instead of [[Black Legion|sheer ferocity]] or [[Word Bearers|divine intervention]], they rely on [[Dakka|firepower.]] Instead of using prisoners for [[Emperor's Children|orgies]], they use them for mine clearance and trench digging. They can build fortifications as, if not more, elaborate and defensible than the [[Imperial Fists]], and are the best Legion at storming them. Now that they no longer serve the Emperor, they are inscrutable monsters in grey plate who arrive on your world, kill your protectors, and force you to work against the Imperium you believe in. Then they discard you once you're no longer useful, and the last thing you'll see is their ugly, jagged fortifications claiming your home. And the only reason they had you live through it was because they wanted to let you know how much they hate you and your ideals in a higher purpose. It's not enough for the Iron Warriors to reject the Imperium and destroy it; they have to drag it through the same mud they had once been made to fight and die in.

They had a vision, once. Before the Heresy, it was a vision of a beautiful and peaceful Imperium, but that dream was shattered by Olympia's destruction. Now they want to build a twisted and oppressive empire of their own. The Iron Warriors still count on their old wargear, and generally are distrustful of the Chaos gods. They have a bitterness, a rage that they suppress with cold logic. The specifics of their goals vary among their number, but they're all hell bent on destroying the Imperium.

They also have a fetish for hazard stripes, which they make liberal use of in their colour scheme. It is as though they wish to say "do not use the side of my bolter as a step" or "touching my pauldron may result in crushed fingers." Then again, [[Chaos|considering who these guys are]], these would actually be good warnings to heed.

GW can't quite seem to figure out what they're supposed to be, so we've taken the liberty of choosing the more in-depth choice for them.

If you like the idea of siege warfare, heavy artillery, bionics, living cannons, and building your own empire, you'll probably like the Iron Warriors.

==Combat Tactics==
A [[Chaos]] [[Space Marines|Legion]] specializing in breaking sieges (as in, taking a fortified location, though logically this should mean that they can do this ''and'' break out of a siege) which is shown in their love of artillery and greater focus on ranged combat, which stands in contrast to the other Chaos Space Marine legions who are [[Rip and tear|far more disposed to melee combat]] (that doesn't mean that Iron Warriors won't punch a few skulls out, though!). Their troops are excellent close-range fighters and close-quarters combatants, and they often make use of special weaponry.

Iron Warriors are also fond of using hordes of human conscripts as cannon fodder, no doubt recruited from conquered worlds and slave populations on Medrengard. The conscripts are described as wearing red uniforms and bits of black armor, and armed with assorted bolt action rifles, lasguns, and autoguns. The Iron Warriors basically zerg-rush thousands of them at enemy strongholds to play fun games such as "find the minefield", "absorb the gunfire" and "reveal the artillery emplacements". They are one of the few Chaos legions that do take prisoners, but only to send them in the first wave instead of their conscripted slaves, who are considered to be slightly more valuable due to their ability to dig decent trenches and mines. It's Also worth mentioning that they LOVE Instant fortifications and makeshift cover, which allows them to FORTIFY THEIR POSITIONS wherever they launch an attack, along with boxing-in whatever poor enemy position they may lay siege upon.

They also have a lot of [[Obliterators]], which are a bunch of muscle blobs armed to the teeth on top of their heads (being Chaos guys, they have shit like that). Literally. They themselves are a walking arsenal, because they can '''MAKE WEAPONS OUT OF THEIR BODIES!'''

Enough to disgust even the Dark Eldar, the Iron Warriors are also the batshit insane sickfucks behind the [[Daemonculaba]], one of the most disturbing things in the galaxy. They're the only [[Chaos Space Marines]] who don't break down in maniacal laughter constantly, as they see this as a sign of weakness. They're not terribly fond of Daemons (like the [[Word Bearers]] or the [[Black Legion]] are), though they will make use of them (unlike the [[Night Lords]], who don't even like Chaos), and they aren't [[Alpharius|closet loyalists]] like the [[Alpha Legion]].

[[File:Iwdread.jpg|450px|left|thumb|What do you mean I've shot the wrong spot!?]]

==History==
Back in the old pre-Heresy days, no legion ever got shit on more than them. Things were a tiny bit promising at the start when Emps led them, but when Horus took over they got assigned all the [[Death Korps of Krieg|dirty, exhausting trench and ditch fighting]], and got no respect for it. There is a passage when, whilst shoveling up earthworks in preparation for the Drop Site Massacre, one of the Sons of Horus literally turns to one of the Emperor's Children and asks, "Hey, why aren't the Iron Warriors doing this?"

Even when they were rejoined by their [[Perturabo|Primarch]], it didn't get any better. In fact, it was that at that very moment that things really started to go downhill. When united with his legion for the first time, he looked upon them and saw that they were not [[Ultramarines|all they could be]] and so he decided that they needed a bout of [[Blam|decimation]] to motivate them properly. So he had 10% of his entire legion [[grimdark|sentenced to death]].

This actually worked and changed the character of the legion from "work-horse" legion to "meat grinder" legion; Perturabo's trick taught them that casualties do not matter, only victory does. They became a legion of [[neckbeards|mathematicians]], where battle strategies could be determined using formula based on available weaponry and expected attrition rates. Fortunately for them, Perturabo was expertly skilled with [[Roboute Guilliman|numbers and logistics]] and organised his legion extremely efficiently, therefore his legion was able to absorb such losses due to maintaining very high numbers, second only to the [[Ultramarines|XIIIth Legion]]. In fact they could have possibly overtaken any other legion in numbers if they did not continually suffer such high casualty rates.

This casual attitude towards attrition unfortunately created an atmosphere of paranoia amongst the officer cadre, where the only way to guarantee survival was to get promoted into a position of usefulness and never, ever get into a position where something bad could be made to stick to them. Therefore their officers suffered incredible [[Nerdrage]] whenever things did not go according to plan and [[That Guy|scrambled over each other]] attempting to gain the attention of their superiors.

Also, their reputation suffered amongst the allied Imperial Army auxilia, who gave the Iron Warriors the nickname ''Corpse Grinders'', as units that were assigned to them tended to get used as cannon fodder for softening up the enemy. This tendency eventually led to the [[Administratum|Council of Terra]] to only assign the Iron Warriors support from penal brigades of poor quality expendable troops, causing the reputation of the Legion to spiral further downwards. Oddly enough, the Iron Warriors were notable for having some of the most disciplined auxilia '''during''' the Horus Heresy, due to further freedom in organizing their allied forces.

This new-and-improved attitude still didn't endear them to their brother legions, though, and, eventually it was this complete lack of anything remotely resembling respect from anyone at all that would finally lead to [[Perturabo|their Primarch flipping his lid]].

===Heresy===
As the Iron Warriors ground on, feeding soldiers into meat grinders like a gambling addict at the Las Vegas slot machines, Olympia became unruly. Eventually, the nobility revolted. Perturabo snapped so hard that he had his Legion assault the world, enslaved the entire population and founded an "Iron Empire" around it to feed his war machine. Then he had a breakdown about what he'd done, which was all the leverage Horus needed to bring him on side for the Traitors. The Iron Warriors duly went to Isstvan V and took part in the Dropsite Massacre.

After that, the next step was Phall, where a large chunk of the Imperial Fists fleet was becalmed. To the Iron Warriors this was everyone's birthday and Christmas thrown together, but even though they nearly destroyed the entire fleet, Alexis Polux spoiled the party somewhat by ordering an attack on the ''Iron Blood''. Perturabo himself came under attack by Imperial Fists Terminators, which only helped to turn his paranoia up to 12. The Iron Warrriors' most rational commander was also backhanded into a Dreadnought by the Primarch when it emerged that Sigismund wasn't leading the fleet. Soon after, the IV joined the Emperor's Children on a campaign where Fulgrim tried to use Perturabo's life force to ascend to daemonhood. Things were looking like business as usual.

Where the Legion had its biggest successes, they were mostly on the Loyalist side. At Paramar, Kyr Vhalen's Grand Company met an Alpha Legion force invading their favourite Forge World. The Alpha Legion told them to get with the program. Kyr Vhalen told them "do one" and while Paramar was taken, the Iron Warriors inflicted serious losses on the tricksy bastards and some lived to fight another day. The old commander Barabas Dantioch humiliated his successor at the Schadenhold, and Auric Saxton killed off Lord Commander Iddinam of the Emperor's Children,

As the Heretics drew close to the Sol System, the IV Legion came into its own, crushing fortress after fortress on the world to Terra. Finally the Iron Warriors were having a good time, and it only got better on Terra as they pulled down whole square kilometres of Dorn's works. Until, of course, that big brawl happened...

===Iron Cage===
Taking inspiration from their Primarch, they display great facility in setting traps. The most notable of these was the "Iron Cage incident" at the close of the [[Horus Heresy]], where the Iron Warriors built a twenty square kilometer fortress on Sebastus IV with a massive fortified bunker at the center. They leaked information that allowed the [[Imperial Fists]] to track them there and [[Rogal Dorn]] himself promised to bring back Perturabo in "an iron cage". The Fists assaulted the fortress, taking huge casualties in doing so as the Iron Warriors fell back to split their advance and draw them into kill zones. Eventually the Fists expended all their ammunition and resorted to knife-fighting. When the Fists finally broke through to the central bunker, they discovered it empty save for the numerous inward-pointing guns designed to kill anyone who breached it. The entire purpose of the fortress was just to bait and exhaust the Imperial Fists' forces, turning their own legendary determination into a liability that led to their own deaths and the humiliation of their legion (albeit one that would have required the death of Perturabo to completely wipe them out, if you believe those corpsefuckers' propaganda). [[Just As Planned]]. While the Iron Cage incident was the most notable, the Iron Warriors do plenty of other things like that, but on a smaller scale. Nearly unrivaled dickery including firing fixed position guns into civilian habitation blocks to bait the enemy into counter-attacking, then evacuating through underground trenches and detonating pre-rigged explosives when the opposing forces reach the fixed gun emplacements.

===The War of the Beast===
This little incident that made the Ullanor Crusade look like a skirmish brought out some unusual behavior from the Iron Warriors. First of all, the threat posed by the orks against the galaxy was so great, that the Iron Warriors allied with the Imperial Fists, of all people. If that weren't out of character enough for them, they also found the orks' use of humans as literal cattle [[what|disgusting]]. Maybe the whole Daemonculaba thing was also too disgusting for them since Honsou hadn't been around at the time, maybe even the Iron Warriors have standards when it comes to human experimentation...or maybe the [[C.S. Goto|writer just didn't know jack shit about the Iron Warrior's character]]. It's probably that last one.

Honsou wasn't around at the time and Warsmith Kalkator, the leader of the Grand Company, was a firm anti-Chaos Warsmith- so he would have also been disgusted at the daemonculaba. It should also be noted Warsmith Kalkator's Grand Company operated away from the other Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror and kept his own 'mini empire.' It wasn't like he isn't above doing horrible shit, as he was introduced gunning down his own human forces as they were being overrun by the orks. Aka how the Iron Warriors SHOULD be--stone cold pragmatists.

And it's worth pointing out that the Iron Warriors are still [[Space Marines]], and therefore (super)human. And part of that is generally seeing humanity as a superior species in the galaxy, especially this close to the Heresy, when they still thought and operated closer to their original legion mentality and hadn't fallen totally down the Chaos rabbit hole. Thus, seeing some xenos, especially orks of all things, setting themselves above humans chapped their ass mightilly. The Iron Warriors can treat mortal humans like dog shit, but they'll be damned if they'll let some orks do it. It's the principal of the thing.

Also, he would be the first person to get a space Marine chapter to turn traitor since the Heresy.

==The Unbreakable Litany==
The Iron Warriors have the coolest chants in 40k too. They say it to themselves to prepare for the meat grinder.
*'''From Iron, cometh Strength.'''
*'''From Strength, cometh Will.'''
*'''From Will, cometh Faith.'''
*'''From Faith, cometh Honour.'''
*'''From Honour, cometh Iron.'''
*'''This is the Unbreakable Litany.'''
*'''And may it forever be so.'''

==Iron Warriors Today==
[[File:A0e8a4e378bf013aade7393f60d8b20a.jpg|thumb|300px|right|Iron Within... You. 'Cause I shot you with my big ass [[Autocannon]]. (Look at his tiny hands, though. Aw)]]
They used to be incredibly badass in 3rd edition, with special rules for having more heavy weapon options, including tanks and artillery, and no limits on [[Obliterator]]s. But then 4th edition came around and instead of just toning the insanity down, [[Gav_Thorpe|Gav Thorpe]] (who's basically [[Matt_Ward|Matt Ward's husband]]) decided that spikey marines should be inferior to loyalists in every way possible.

The Iron Warriors have been one of the more popular legions in fluff over the past few years. While some have put this down to them being 'grittier' or more realistic than the others, the truth is probably more functional than fanciful: The Iron Warriors are for the most part ''not'' gibbering madmen. This might seem a dumb reason but it's actually important. To write a good character they need to make sense to the reader, even when we don't agree with them we need to understand why they want to do what they do. The other legions kinda lack that. Why did you attack that planet? [[Emperor's_Children|'Because it turns me on']] doesn't really make for an interesting character, nor does being [[Word_Bearers|told to by demons]], [[World_Eaters|wanting to kill everything all the time]] just [[Death_Guard|really digging dead stuff]] or [[Black Legion|because Zeke and his drinking buddies told me to]]. So that leaves the Iron Warriors as being just about the only generally sane legion who do things for reasons normal people can understand.

[[Graham McNeill]] wrote a book that was mostly about them. Called 'Storm of Iron', surprisingly, and it featured a boatload of Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors (surprisingly) and a whole load of dickery, including traitorous techpriests, countless rows of geneseed (not being used to make more Speehs Mehreens, unsurprisingly. <--- Why WH40K's so [[Grimdark]]), and a daemon prince. To cap it all off, this is where [[Honsou]] gets his start. Last but not least, countless Imperial Guard and Titans.
...Tell me again why the Imperials lost? There was a traitor on the inside, and about fifty thousand tons of badass at the gates. Baaaad combination. (McNeill then wrote a [[Horus Heresy]] prequel called 'Angel Exterminatus', featuring Fulgrim being an even bigger dick than usual and an Iron Hands Professor Farnsworth.)

Even Ward seems to think they're cool, as he has Warsmith [[Shon'tu]] one-up both Honsou and Abaddon. How? He Invades Terra! He teams up with Be’lakor (yeah, the same guy from Fantasy battles) and uses Phalanx's warp door (yeah remember that from the Soul Drinkers book) to invade it hoping to take it over and bomb the Emperor's palaces. Even the combined plot armor of the Imperial Fists AND the [[Legion of the Damned]] is still just barely enough to force a stalemate.

John French, on the other hand, doesn't seem to like them much at all. This is a shame since they tend to be his go-to antagonists.

Anyway, here is [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ghs6p8inY their theme], done by [[HMKids]], which includes in the lyrics quotes from Dawn of War Chaos Space Marines for extra-flavour! They are METAL indeed!

An Iron Warrior named Valicar, serving a priestess of the Dark Mechanicus, became the first fleetmaster of the Black Legion. If not for his actions, Abaddon would have been trapped on the ''Eternal Crusader'' after his duel with Sigismund during the First Battle of Cadia.

The German Death Metal band "Debauchery" also wrote a song and video here [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dqkmPI2JlM], and it is badass.

==Iron Warriors Character==
Personality-wise, the Iron Warriors are one of the most… unpleasant Traitor Legions. They are bonded by a mutual brotherhood forged by their hatred of the Imperium, their will to conquer, and their bitter paranoia, yet even then rivalries can surface and lead to some serious backstabbing. Makes you understand just what the appeal of the honest brotherhood of the Black Legion is. They value their hatred and opportunities to express it, and treat most they know as tools to express their hatred and accomplish their goals. To an Iron Warrior, everything boils down to a resource to be used and/or an obstacle to be cleared. War is mathematical equation that has to be solved for victory. Humans are slaves, expendable soldiers, breeding stock, and ultimately something to be fed (literally) into the Iron Warriors's war apparatus, making their lives a living, nightmarish hell beforehand. Fellow Iron Warriors are expected to carry out their brutal, violent work without question. They carry a powerful sense of brotherhood and an unflinching loyalty to their Legion, forged by a bitter hatred of their enemies and their cruel urge to dominate and enslave. At best, they view fellow Iron Warriors as coworkers or brothers-in-crime, or at worst, as hated rivals. Warsmiths ally and deal with each other to stave off the next battle so they can go to war on more hated targets, but if they smell weakness among their ranks, or a slight directed at one of them, they might decide your soldiers and your fort would be better off under their leadership, no matter the cost to get it. [[Grimdark]].

When the Iron Warriors go to war, everyone is expendable. Eve-ry-one. Back in the days of the Great Crusade they spent Astartes lives like bolter rounds, and human lives like <s>lasbolts</s> autogun bullets, and they haven’t exactly gotten better with time. Their pure, unadulterated contempt for life is such that, in the Siege of Castellax, they refer to their mortal servants simply as “flesh,” and place orders for more like they're fast food (battalions 3-5 were wiped out today. I’ll have four more, to go, and hold the pickles). Speaking of food, when rations started to get low, the Iron Warriors started feeding their people [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green the rendered down remains of the dead]. (It's not like the Imperium does not do the same on the regular basis, though.)

The Iron Warriors are basically the very epitome of the bad boss trope. If you fuck up on the job, do something your way, or show any degree of insubordination, you're done for, end of story. The Night Lords may send the populations of entire worlds to the skinning pits just for shits and giggles (and record it all for future shits and giggles), and the Emperors Children may be impulsive, sociopathic sado-masochists who live and breathe to inflict pain, but even they would break under the brutal regiments of the Iron Warriors, where there is no room for impulsive behavior. There is only ruthless efficiency; grinding, crushing pragmatism and nothing else.

==Daily Routines==
*'''04:00 - Morning Reveille:''' The Iron Warriors emerge from their artillery batteries and fortifications.
*'''04:20 - Morning Maintenance Rituals:''' The Iron Warriors ensure their instruments of war are in tip top shape. A slave is turned into a servitor for every warhead that fails to detonate.
*'''05:00 - Morning Prayers:''' The Iron Warriors begin to pray to all four Chaos Gods. They are shorter than the Word Bearers and Black Legion as they view Chaos only as a weapon they can use, thus each prayer to each God lasts only 30 minutes.
*'''07:00 - Morning Firing Rites:''' The Iron Warriors test fire their artillery and siege weaponry at captured civilians and fortifications. Any Iron Warriors who [[FAIL|manage to miss a stationary target]] are also used as targets.
*'''10:00 - Close Combat Practice:''' The Iron Warriors descend in a cage for close-quarters combat practice. Servitors are used, as normal people are too squishy and die too quickly.
*'''12:00 - Tactical Indoctrination:''' The Iron Warriors gather to discuss which fortifications to destroy or which monument of [[Rogal Dorn]] to defile, along with directing their laborers and human auxiliary forces.
*'''13:00 - Afternoon Wargames:''' The Iron Warriors set up [[Miniatures|miniature pieces representing their forces on an open table with complex rules and dice to test each others' grasp of strategy.]] [[Perturabo]] sometimes joins in on the 'fun'. An ancient Terran snack known as 'The Doritos' are brought by the truckload and are complemented by an equally ancient Terran beverage known as 'Mountain Dew'. Those who consume 'The Doritos' are not allowed to touch field operation manuals until they ritually cleanse and scrape their fingers. Anyone failing to do so will find their hands in their next meal. Of course, none of this is fun. Rules Lawyers, Munchkins, Powerplayers: every single stick-to-the-book archetype you can think of is exercised here, and they won't have it any other way.
*'''14:00 - First Evening Meal:''' A feast is prepared by the legion serfs. Due to long hours without eating, some Iron Warriors may have already begun to eat bits off their slaves.
*'''15:00 - Evening Firing Rites:''' The Iron Warriors practice their artillery marksmanship on moving targets. Aerial targets are also available for those looking to impress their superiors. Any found using airburst or guided ordinance will find themselves and their arsenal fed to the nearest [[Obliterator]].
*'''18:00 - Battle Practice:''' The Iron Warriors descend into the labyrinthine trench lines. [[Powergamer|Heavy weapon ambushes and kill zones are the most popular tactics in the narrow trenches]].
*'''20:00 - Second Evening Meal:''' Another feast is prepared by legion slaves. Those slaves who have parts of their bodies eaten by hungry Iron Warriors are gifted bionic implants to make them useful again.
*'''21:00 - Evening Wargames:''' A game of [[Exterminatus|Galactic Cyclonic War]] is set up, where the only winning move is not to play. Any Iron Warriors foolish enough to play will be assigned to minesweeper duty. The remaining Warriors continue their earlier wargames.
*'''22:00 - Bitching about the Imperial Fists:''' A period is held for the Iron Warriors to bitch and moan about the [[Imperial Fists]] and why they can't wait to tear down Rogal Dorn's statue on Terra. Sometimes [[Perturabo]] joins in the bitching.
*'''23:00 - Evening Maintenance Rituals:''' Many Iron Warriors continue bitching about the [[Imperial Fists]] during this time, infusing their equipment with their cold, bitter hate.
*'''00:00 - Rest Period:''' The Iron Warriors retire to their artillery and siege vehicles.

{{Template:Chaos-Official}}
[[Category:Warhammer 40,000]]
[[Category:Chaos]]
[[Category:Space Marines]]