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Malcador the Sigillite

2018-05-24T14:03:40Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[File:The Sigillite clean.jpg|thumb|300px|The [[Administratum]] of the 41st millennium wishes it could be half as competent as Malcador. On second thought, [[Grimdark|no they won't]]. [[Unknown Primarchs|Interesting armrests...]]]]
{{topquote|I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.|The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R Tolkien}}
{{topquote|I am here because when all else fails, when all the other [[Primarchs|mighty gods]] have [[Horus Heresy|gone off to war]], I am all that's left. Home. Hearth. I am the last Olympian.
|Hestia, to Percy Jackson, in The Last Olympian}}

Malcador the Sigillite (also known as Malcador the Hero or Malcador the Laundryman Of Teh Emprah) was Regent of Terra, Master of the [[Administratum]], first Grand Master of the [[Officio Assassinorum]], and all around bestest bud of the [[God-Emperor of Mankind|Emperor of Mankind]] during the [[Great Crusade]] and the [[Horus Heresy]]. The real-life equivalent of Malcador's position in the Imperium is that of Prime Minister/Chancellor, who acted as de facto head of government in the name of the sovereign (the Emperor).

In some respects, Malcador represents something of the Emprah's final dream for mankind as well as something of the nightmare that the Imperium became. In every sense he is just a man. Not a super augmented warrior monk, just a clever old bugger. Like Big E, he understood that the Imperium needed taxes and administration as well as generals and he entrusted those duties to other normal humans. Without him, most of the things he created became horribly corrupt because <s>humans are kinda jerks</s> '''[[Grimdark|GRIMDARK]]''' but even then at least it was humans being [[dick]]s to each other not [[Primarch|demigods]] lording it over the rest.

==History==
Having served the Emprah during the Unification of [[Terra]] ''(by his own reckoning he was 6718 years old by the close of the Heresy)'', he was present during the creation of the [[Primarchs]] and advised the Emperor during the early stages of the [[Great Crusade]]. Interestingly, the very first Space Marines (as in pre-legion Dark Angels) were noted to have fought with the Emperor against a psychic group called the '''Sigillites''' (even being mentally shielded against psychic assault by the Emperor himself for the campaign; warriors from said campaign had a base d+10 on psychic defense rolls), implying that Malcador may have been one of their number.

Malcador himself explains that he is the last of the Sigillite order and further goes on to explain that they were a group which existed to preserve the memories of the past; it was Malcador's duty to remind the Emperor of the lessons of the past and to guide Him in the future. This still doesn't fully explain his seeming immortality and why the Emperor didn't kill him like he did most of his enemies. On his long life, he does point out that it doesn't come from the Emperor. According to Malcador, when he met the Emperor, the "emperor" was just the greatest of Terran warlords and little else.

When the Primarchs started getting collected and the new Imperium spread outwards, Malcador served as the Regent of Terra, acting as a prime minister who kept the day-to-day activities of the [[Imperium of Man]] running, sponsoring various agencies (like the [[Remembrancer|Remembrancer Order]]), appointing the [[High Lords of Terra|Council of Terra]] and building the [[Administratum]] from the ground up. He also was behind the creation of the [[Officio Assassinorum]], because he realised that not all problems could be solved with either [[Iterator|diplomacy]] or a [[Space Marines|public power boot]] to the arse.

After the Emperor returned to Terra and set up the Council of Terra, the Emperor appointed Malcador to the position of First Lord of the Council (essentially the Prime Minister of the Imperium at that point, where the [[Horus|Warmaster]] was the overall military commander), while the Emperor descended into the Imperial palace and set to work on gaining access to the [[Webway]]. Though he tried to be some kind of cool uncle/granddad to the Primarchs, most of them seem to have gotten jealous of his closeness to the Emperor. All of them showed off their physical oomph in front of him (though at the time Mortarion was the most recent Primarch to be discovered, so we don't know if [[Jaghatai Khan]], [[Alpharius]] and the rest decided to lay the smackdown on grandpa), and at least two of them straight-up assaulted him.

When the [[Horus Heresy]] broke out, Malcador worked closely but-not-always-that-closely with [[Rogal Dorn]] (there were [[skub|some divergences of opinions]] between the loyal-to-the-point-of-naivety Dorn and the pragmatic-to-the-point-of-cynicism Malcador) in preparing the defenses of Terra and coordinating the logistics of the war effort, as well as overseeing a formation of special projects such as the [[Astronomican|Adeptus Astronomican]] and, towards the end of the Horus Heresy, the [[Grey Knights]].

While he globally did a pretty decent job of keeping the Imperium running, there was one decision that in hindsight came to bite them in the ass spectacularly. With the worlds directly around Terra exsanguinated by the demands of the [[Great Crusade]], Malcador and the Council decided to implement supplementary taxes on top of the already existing [[Imperial Tithe]] to pay for support for the now-widespread and far-flung Expeditionary Fleets. While this was a good idea in theory, in practice it proved to be a source of discontent and rebellion. Where those worlds that had been visited by the [[Salamanders]] or [[Raven Guard]] (whose ''modus operandi'' was to limit casualties) or the [[Ultramarines]] (who wrecked things but rebuild afterwards) could and did contribute relatively easily; those that had gotten rekt by the likes of the [[Death Guard]] or [[Iron Hands]] '''really''' weren't inclined to pay even more to the Imperium that devastated their planet.

==Malcador's Fate==
Malcador is dead. Very, very dead. During the Siege of Terra, the only chance that the Emperor could get to join the battle would be if someone took his place sitting on the Golden Throne (since [[Magnus]] broke it and threatened Terra with a new [[Eye of Terror]]). Malcador's psychic power meant he was the only potential candidate to do so while the Emperor fought off the [[Chaos Space Marines]]. However, since he was really not on the same psychic level as Big E, the process of painfully shutting the door in the daemon's faces each time they tried to open it burned him out (literally) in a matter of hours. He crumbled to dust after the Emperor was returned to the seat by Rogal Dorn and Jaghatai Khan. With his last ounce of strength, he allowed the Emperor to communicate with his mortal servants one last time. Truly, an all around awesome bureaucrat and manipulator.

==Malcador's Insights==
There was much more to Malcador than meets the eye. He was the last of the Sigillites, a secret order of chroniclers and history-keepers that guided humanity from the very beginning through their knowledge of the past, and that the '''=][=''' symbol often associated with the later [[Inquisition]] was actually the symbol of his order, therefore he was probably one of the old-school [[Illuminati (40k)|Illuminati]].

As a former enemy of the Emperor, he still acted as a devil's advocate to some degree, disagreeing with the Emperor on some very fundamental points:

*Malcador worried about the Emperor being so far above humanity, [[The Last Church|so inspirational in his efforts to squeeze out superstition and false religion]] that it would eventually cause [[Imperial Cult|religious cults]] to form around himself and his sons instead, which is [[Derp|exactly what happened.]]
*He also warned that humanity would be so invested in the Emperor that if he were to ever leave or die, humanity would not be able to handle the shock and would be left paralysed and without direction. The Emperor himself dismissed this as nonsense, since his intention was to raise humanity and allow it to think for itself, but again it is exactly what happened in the end - another [[Not as Planned|miscalculation]] on his part. To be fair, the Emperor’s plan for human independence was not completed by the time things went to hell.
**When looked at from a different point of view: the Emperor's plan to invade and conquer the Webway ''(which Magnus was supposed to assist with if he had not broken it)'', then lead humanity into enlightenment away from the dangers of unrestrained psychic potential ''(which Mortarion was supposed to be the poster boy for if he hadn't switched sides)'' was so utterly dependent on the Emperor being the center of it all that he was was practically setting himself up for failure. While the Emperor was betting the future of the species on the outcome of his own plan, Malcador was thankfully setting up contingencies just in case everything went tits up.

Therefore it could be said that all of Malcador's efforts to create the agencies that the Imperium would need later were all part of an insurance policy that humanity could deploy if it ever turned out that the Emperor and his Primarchs could [[Horus Heresy|not be relied upon]] to carry humanity on their [[Pauldron|shoulders]]. Needless to say, if Malcador were the Emperor, [[noblebright|things might have turned out better for the Imperium]].

One of his more amusing requests was that [[Fabius Bile|the Primarchs be made female instead of male, or at the very least, add female Primarchs into the mix.]] His primary reasoning was that it would largely deter conflicts within his children, as boys tended to have a competitive "dick-measuring attitude" towards each other, preventing them all from cohesively working with each other. [[Skub|Girls are generally more level-headed than boys and act more as the voice of reason in a family]], which would probably have [[waifu|eased]] some of the tensions that led to the primarchs despising each other. The Emperor eventually dismissed this, both as a joke and as an impossibility since the Space Marine gene-seed was keyed towards male subjects (He'd apparently tried to create [[female Space Marines]] at one point but it didn't work out). (''Take this paragraph, once again, with a healthy dose of salt considering previous paragraphs.'')

[[Skub|His refusal makes sense]] as not only would the changes to physiology effectively change supplicants into hyper-competitive dick-measurers anyway for muscle mass, endurance, stamina, and aggression with sheer amounts of testosterone needed for the rapid growth process. So, males it was.

The Emperor expected his sons to be of one mind as he planned to train them under his [[Imperial Truth|unified guidance]], ensuring they would work [[Krieg|utterly objectively with no personal feelings to get in the way]] (much like him). This expectation went to shit when the Chaos Gods spirited the Primarchs away from Terra and they landed on different planets and being raised with different backgrounds and beliefs, causing friction between those whose home culture did not really mesh with each other. This undiluted brotherly rivalry (not helped because the Emperor did not bother to ease the tensions between his sons, which as mentioned above may or may not have been intentional on His part) would eventually royally bite him back in his golden buttplate when the Horus Heresy erupted. It also caused Malcador quite a lot of physical pain - all the Primarchs made a show of their physical strength in front of him at some point, with Mortarion choking him and Lorgar backhanding him around like a ragdoll.

[[File:WOW.jpg|1200px|thumb|left|In the 8th game of the World of Warcraft series, which was the first since the current 8th editions of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K, they also advanced the storyline following the same trend, as we have an official Alliance-Horde war for the first time since Warcraft 3, in total coordination with the real world when long unsettled conflicts, such as the Arab-Israeli war, Grexit, Kim Jong-un, US-China trade war, Fascism emergerging in Europe starting from Italy, Neo-ottomanism, American civil war, Monroe dogma over Nicolas Maduro and Lula and even a volcano in Hawaii erupting, are simultaneously all emerging as if we are truly living in a novel.]]

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|right|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to acquaint with its reflections in our ludicrous lives, redefined by overwhelmingly shocking surprises.]]

==Credits==
He was the third most powerful human [[psyker]] of his time (after Big E and [[Magnus the Red]]), being able to do things such as plunging the entire moon of [[Solar System#Saturn|Titan]] in the Warp to protect what would become the Grey Knights from the attacking Traitor Legions. He was also able to prevent a volkite gun from firing even while [[What|surrounded by a squad]] of [[Sisters of Silence]], who were there to keep the psyker [[Knights-Errant|Sevarian]]'s powers in check, without showing any sort of discomfort or loss of concentration.

Though it has never been seen, he must have been one badass warrior too, since he was the Grand Master of the Assassins. Says something that he took a bone-crunching backhand from Lorgar on the chin. This, in addition to his above-mentioned prodigious psychic power, shows what sort of man Malcador was. With his power - and considering only a few Primarchs are psychic or have psychic defenses (actually they all had psychic potential but most didn't realise, or at least understand, their full potential) - he probably could've put Lorgar on a time out. On the moon. With his mind. Because Lorgar's powers hadn't come into their own yet, Malcador could've put him down for the count quite easily back then.

He proposed the [[Chaplain]] edict, ironically taking the idea from [[Lorgar]] and [[Sanguinius]] though back then they were more like [[Commissar]]s, keeping order and looking for <s>[[heresy]]</s> non-compliance, instead of the modern day warrior-priests.

There is also [[Malcador Heavy Tank|a tank named after him]], though nowadays another tank named after [[Leman Russ|an important hero and leader]] of the Imperium is used more often, the [[Leman Russ Battle Tank|Leman Russ]], passing over yet another [[Macharius Heavy Tank|perfectly servicable vehicle]]. Russ is a [[Galactic Partridges|glory hog]] like that.

He was also potentially the busiest man in existence, having founded the [[Adeptus Terra|administration]] of pretty much the ENTIRE Imperium single-handedly. The organizations he founded - the [[Administratum]], the [[Officio Assassinorum]], the [[Astronomican|Adeptus Astronomica]] and the [[Inquisition]] - have been borderline fucking up everything else (and each other) ever since without his guidance. So far, however, humans still exist; a testament to Malcador's administrative foresight. After all, a stable government gets the job done even with the worst sort.

His force staff may have also passed into the hands of [[Varro Tigurius]], because [[Matt Ward|Ultramarines]].

== See also ==
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdAN0o3oqB8 Malcador's opinion on Grimdark.]

{{Imperium}}

Malcador the Sigillite

2018-05-24T14:03:03Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[File:The Sigillite clean.jpg|thumb|300px|The [[Administratum]] of the 41st millennium wishes it could be half as competent as Malcador. On second thought, [[Grimdark|no they won't]]. [[Unknown Primarchs|Interesting armrests...]]]]
{{topquote|I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.|The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R Tolkien}}
{{topquote|I am here because when all else fails, when all the other [[Primarchs|mighty gods]] have [[Horus Heresy|gone off to war]], I am all that's left. Home. Hearth. I am the last Olympian.
|Hestia, to Percy Jackson, in The Last Olympian}}

Malcador the Sigillite (also known as Malcador the Hero or Malcador the Laundryman Of Teh Emprah) was Regent of Terra, Master of the [[Administratum]], first Grand Master of the [[Officio Assassinorum]], and all around bestest bud of the [[God-Emperor of Mankind|Emperor of Mankind]] during the [[Great Crusade]] and the [[Horus Heresy]]. The real-life equivalent of Malcador's position in the Imperium is that of Prime Minister/Chancellor, who acted as de facto head of government in the name of the sovereign (the Emperor).

In some respects, Malcador represents something of the Emprah's final dream for mankind as well as something of the nightmare that the Imperium became. In every sense he is just a man. Not a super augmented warrior monk, just a clever old bugger. Like Big E, he understood that the Imperium needed taxes and administration as well as generals and he entrusted those duties to other normal humans. Without him, most of the things he created became horribly corrupt because <s>humans are kinda jerks</s> '''[[Grimdark|GRIMDARK]]''' but even then at least it was humans being [[dick]]s to each other not [[Primarch|demigods]] lording it over the rest.

==History==
Having served the Emprah during the Unification of [[Terra]] ''(by his own reckoning he was 6718 years old by the close of the Heresy)'', he was present during the creation of the [[Primarchs]] and advised the Emperor during the early stages of the [[Great Crusade]]. Interestingly, the very first Space Marines (as in pre-legion Dark Angels) were noted to have fought with the Emperor against a psychic group called the '''Sigillites''' (even being mentally shielded against psychic assault by the Emperor himself for the campaign; warriors from said campaign had a base d+10 on psychic defense rolls), implying that Malcador may have been one of their number.

Malcador himself explains that he is the last of the Sigillite order and further goes on to explain that they were a group which existed to preserve the memories of the past; it was Malcador's duty to remind the Emperor of the lessons of the past and to guide Him in the future. This still doesn't fully explain his seeming immortality and why the Emperor didn't kill him like he did most of his enemies. On his long life, he does point out that it doesn't come from the Emperor. According to Malcador, when he met the Emperor, the "emperor" was just the greatest of Terran warlords and little else.

When the Primarchs started getting collected and the new Imperium spread outwards, Malcador served as the Regent of Terra, acting as a prime minister who kept the day-to-day activities of the [[Imperium of Man]] running, sponsoring various agencies (like the [[Remembrancer|Remembrancer Order]]), appointing the [[High Lords of Terra|Council of Terra]] and building the [[Administratum]] from the ground up. He also was behind the creation of the [[Officio Assassinorum]], because he realised that not all problems could be solved with either [[Iterator|diplomacy]] or a [[Space Marines|public power boot]] to the arse.

After the Emperor returned to Terra and set up the Council of Terra, the Emperor appointed Malcador to the position of First Lord of the Council (essentially the Prime Minister of the Imperium at that point, where the [[Horus|Warmaster]] was the overall military commander), while the Emperor descended into the Imperial palace and set to work on gaining access to the [[Webway]]. Though he tried to be some kind of cool uncle/granddad to the Primarchs, most of them seem to have gotten jealous of his closeness to the Emperor. All of them showed off their physical oomph in front of him (though at the time Mortarion was the most recent Primarch to be discovered, so we don't know if [[Jaghatai Khan]], [[Alpharius]] and the rest decided to lay the smackdown on grandpa), and at least two of them straight-up assaulted him.

When the [[Horus Heresy]] broke out, Malcador worked closely but-not-always-that-closely with [[Rogal Dorn]] (there were [[skub|some divergences of opinions]] between the loyal-to-the-point-of-naivety Dorn and the pragmatic-to-the-point-of-cynicism Malcador) in preparing the defenses of Terra and coordinating the logistics of the war effort, as well as overseeing a formation of special projects such as the [[Astronomican|Adeptus Astronomican]] and, towards the end of the Horus Heresy, the [[Grey Knights]].

While he globally did a pretty decent job of keeping the Imperium running, there was one decision that in hindsight came to bite them in the ass spectacularly. With the worlds directly around Terra exsanguinated by the demands of the [[Great Crusade]], Malcador and the Council decided to implement supplementary taxes on top of the already existing [[Imperial Tithe]] to pay for support for the now-widespread and far-flung Expeditionary Fleets. While this was a good idea in theory, in practice it proved to be a source of discontent and rebellion. Where those worlds that had been visited by the [[Salamanders]] or [[Raven Guard]] (whose ''modus operandi'' was to limit casualties) or the [[Ultramarines]] (who wrecked things but rebuild afterwards) could and did contribute relatively easily; those that had gotten rekt by the likes of the [[Death Guard]] or [[Iron Hands]] '''really''' weren't inclined to pay even more to the Imperium that devastated their planet.

==Malcador's Fate==
Malcador is dead. Very, very dead. During the Siege of Terra, the only chance that the Emperor could get to join the battle would be if someone took his place sitting on the Golden Throne (since [[Magnus]] broke it and threatened Terra with a new [[Eye of Terror]]). Malcador's psychic power meant he was the only potential candidate to do so while the Emperor fought off the [[Chaos Space Marines]]. However, since he was really not on the same psychic level as Big E, the process of painfully shutting the door in the daemon's faces each time they tried to open it burned him out (literally) in a matter of hours. He crumbled to dust after the Emperor was returned to the seat by Rogal Dorn and Jaghatai Khan. With his last ounce of strength, he allowed the Emperor to communicate with his mortal servants one last time. Truly, an all around awesome bureaucrat and manipulator.

==Malcador's Insights==
There was much more to Malcador than meets the eye. He was the last of the Sigillites, a secret order of chroniclers and history-keepers that guided humanity from the very beginning through their knowledge of the past, and that the '''=][=''' symbol often associated with the later [[Inquisition]] was actually the symbol of his order, therefore he was probably one of the old-school [[Illuminati (40k)|Illuminati]].

As a former enemy of the Emperor, he still acted as a devil's advocate to some degree, disagreeing with the Emperor on some very fundamental points:

*Malcador worried about the Emperor being so far above humanity, [[The Last Church|so inspirational in his efforts to squeeze out superstition and false religion]] that it would eventually cause [[Imperial Cult|religious cults]] to form around himself and his sons instead, which is [[Derp|exactly what happened.]]
*He also warned that humanity would be so invested in the Emperor that if he were to ever leave or die, humanity would not be able to handle the shock and would be left paralysed and without direction. The Emperor himself dismissed this as nonsense, since his intention was to raise humanity and allow it to think for itself, but again it is exactly what happened in the end - another [[Not as Planned|miscalculation]] on his part. To be fair, the Emperor’s plan for human independence was not completed by the time things went to hell.
**When looked at from a different point of view: the Emperor's plan to invade and conquer the Webway ''(which Magnus was supposed to assist with if he had not broken it)'', then lead humanity into enlightenment away from the dangers of unrestrained psychic potential ''(which Mortarion was supposed to be the poster boy for if he hadn't switched sides)'' was so utterly dependent on the Emperor being the center of it all that he was was practically setting himself up for failure. While the Emperor was betting the future of the species on the outcome of his own plan, Malcador was thankfully setting up contingencies just in case everything went tits up.

Therefore it could be said that all of Malcador's efforts to create the agencies that the Imperium would need later were all part of an insurance policy that humanity could deploy if it ever turned out that the Emperor and his Primarchs could [[Horus Heresy|not be relied upon]] to carry humanity on their [[Pauldron|shoulders]]. Needless to say, if Malcador were the Emperor, [[noblebright|things might have turned out better for the Imperium]].

One of his more amusing requests was that [[Fabius Bile|the Primarchs be made female instead of male, or at the very least, add female Primarchs into the mix.]] His primary reasoning was that it would largely deter conflicts within his children, as boys tended to have a competitive "dick-measuring attitude" towards each other, preventing them all from cohesively working with each other. [[Skub|Girls are generally more level-headed than boys and act more as the voice of reason in a family]], which would probably have [[waifu|eased]] some of the tensions that led to the primarchs despising each other. The Emperor eventually dismissed this, both as a joke and as an impossibility since the Space Marine gene-seed was keyed towards male subjects (He'd apparently tried to create [[female Space Marines]] at one point but it didn't work out). (''Take this paragraph, once again, with a healthy dose of salt considering previous paragraphs.'')

[[Skub|His refusal makes sense]] as not only would the changes to physiology effectively change supplicants into hyper-competitive dick-measurers anyway for muscle mass, endurance, stamina, and aggression with sheer amounts of testosterone needed for the rapid growth process. So, males it was.

The Emperor expected his sons to be of one mind as he planned to train them under his [[Imperial Truth|unified guidance]], ensuring they would work [[Krieg|utterly objectively with no personal feelings to get in the way]] (much like him). This expectation went to shit when the Chaos Gods spirited the Primarchs away from Terra and they landed on different planets and being raised with different backgrounds and beliefs, causing friction between those whose home culture did not really mesh with each other. This undiluted brotherly rivalry (not helped because the Emperor did not bother to ease the tensions between his sons, which as mentioned above may or may not have been intentional on His part) would eventually royally bite him back in his golden buttplate when the Horus Heresy erupted. It also caused Malcador quite a lot of physical pain - all the Primarchs made a show of their physical strength in front of him at some point, with Mortarion choking him and Lorgar backhanding him around like a ragdoll.

[[File:WOW.jpg|1200px|thumb|left|In the 8th game of the World of Warcraft series, which was the first since the current 8th editions of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K, they also advanced the storyline following the same trend, as we have an official Alliance-Horde war for the first time since Warcraft 3, in total coordination with the real world when long unsettled conflicts, such as the Arab-Israeli war, Grexit, Kim Jong-un, US-China trade war, Fascism emergerging in Europe starting from Italy, Neo-ottomanism, American civil war, Monroe dogma over Nicolas Maduro and Lula and even a volcano in Hawaii erupting, are simultaneously all emerging as if we are truly living in a novel.]]

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|right|(Pana)Giota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to acquaint with its reflections in our ludicrous lives, redefined by overwhelmingly shocking surprises.]]

==Credits==
He was the third most powerful human [[psyker]] of his time (after Big E and [[Magnus the Red]]), being able to do things such as plunging the entire moon of [[Solar System#Saturn|Titan]] in the Warp to protect what would become the Grey Knights from the attacking Traitor Legions. He was also able to prevent a volkite gun from firing even while [[What|surrounded by a squad]] of [[Sisters of Silence]], who were there to keep the psyker [[Knights-Errant|Sevarian]]'s powers in check, without showing any sort of discomfort or loss of concentration.

Though it has never been seen, he must have been one badass warrior too, since he was the Grand Master of the Assassins. Says something that he took a bone-crunching backhand from Lorgar on the chin. This, in addition to his above-mentioned prodigious psychic power, shows what sort of man Malcador was. With his power - and considering only a few Primarchs are psychic or have psychic defenses (actually they all had psychic potential but most didn't realise, or at least understand, their full potential) - he probably could've put Lorgar on a time out. On the moon. With his mind. Because Lorgar's powers hadn't come into their own yet, Malcador could've put him down for the count quite easily back then.

He proposed the [[Chaplain]] edict, ironically taking the idea from [[Lorgar]] and [[Sanguinius]] though back then they were more like [[Commissar]]s, keeping order and looking for <s>[[heresy]]</s> non-compliance, instead of the modern day warrior-priests.

There is also [[Malcador Heavy Tank|a tank named after him]], though nowadays another tank named after [[Leman Russ|an important hero and leader]] of the Imperium is used more often, the [[Leman Russ Battle Tank|Leman Russ]], passing over yet another [[Macharius Heavy Tank|perfectly servicable vehicle]]. Russ is a [[Galactic Partridges|glory hog]] like that.

He was also potentially the busiest man in existence, having founded the [[Adeptus Terra|administration]] of pretty much the ENTIRE Imperium single-handedly. The organizations he founded - the [[Administratum]], the [[Officio Assassinorum]], the [[Astronomican|Adeptus Astronomica]] and the [[Inquisition]] - have been borderline fucking up everything else (and each other) ever since without his guidance. So far, however, humans still exist; a testament to Malcador's administrative foresight. After all, a stable government gets the job done even with the worst sort.

His force staff may have also passed into the hands of [[Varro Tigurius]], because [[Matt Ward|Ultramarines]].

== See also ==
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdAN0o3oqB8 Malcador's opinion on Grimdark.]

{{Imperium}}

Advancing the Storyline

2018-05-24T12:32:24Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

'''Advancing the Storyline''' is what a great number of [[neckbeards]] believe that [[Games Workshop]] <s>needs</s> needed to do with [[Warhammer 40,000]]. On [[/tg/]], [[Warseer]], [[Bolter and Chainsword]], and [[Dakka Dakka]], people complain and grumble about how <s>the storyline never moves beyond the year 999.M41, with [[Abaddon the Despoiler]]'s 13th [[Black Crusade]] on the very brink of taking [[Cadia]], ''for real this time''</s> (except he actually did in The Gathering Storm and the setting has now reached 000.M42. Does this mean they have to change the name to Warhammer 41,000?), the [[Tyranid]] [[Hive Fleet]]s closing in on [[Terra]], the [[Astronomican]] flickering and fading, and the [[Golden Throne]] being one [[Adeptus Custodes]]' sneeze away from shutting down permanently.

Recently, GW seems to have been inching the plot forwards in parts around the Imperium, with expanded information on the 13th Black Crusade, Daemon Primarchs coming about, and [[Adeptus Custodes|Super-Super-Soldiers]] being forced into the fray, GW is upsetting the status quo that's been stagnating for the last ten millennia and past four editions (give or take), laying the groundwork for moving things forward. And with rumblings about 40K 8thEd., it seems 40K is moving towards its own version of [[The End Times]]. For reasons listed below and in the End Times article, this is all but guaranteed to be the largest mass of [[skub]] /tg/ has ever seen.

'''[[Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition|It Happened.]]'''

==Why they're wrong==
Some people — [[Aaron Dembski-Bowden|Daddy Issues Dembski]] being one of its most frequent proponents — hold the view that this attitude is a load of shit, and that it completely misunderstands the nature of the 40k setting.

This is because 40k isn't a story, and in fact, doesn't have a "storyline"; while events from it, such as the [[Black Crusade]]s and the [[Badab War]], have had their stories told, there's no single, overarching story that the setting exists to tell (unlike universes such as those of [[Star Wars]] or [[Doctor Who]]; even though other stories exist in those settings, they're anchored in a central, unifying one). 40k is simply a setting in which stories take place, and has ten thousand years and a whole galaxy in which to set them, so expecting the timeline to "advance" to "continue" or "finish" the "story" is a stupid idea.

The other, more practical issue with advancing the storyline is that a major change to it is likely to have severe reprecussions on one or more of the different factions, which may not always be welcome changes. To use the most obvious example, consider what effect story progression would have on the Imperium of Man. The majority of 40k players favor one of the many Imperium-aligned factions. Assuming that the [[God-Emperor of Mankind|God-Emperor]] doesn't get resurrected and the Golden Throne isn't fixed before it fails (which itself is rather unlikely and has a good chance of causing problems of its own), the sheer number of threats that the [[Imperium]] faces on a constant basis will tear it apart as soon as the Emperor snuffs it, leading to the enslavement and/or destruction of humanity. And no Imperium means that about half of the armies currently in the game will no longer exist, leaving numerous [[fa/tg/uys]] stuck with unusable armies and a serious grudge over being given the [[Squat]] treatment. Needless to say, Games Workshop's profits would be hit incredibly hard by the departure of so many paying customers, so they have no choice but to keep the Imperium afloat. Although this has the infuriating side effect of causing the setting to grow stagnant and unchanging (much like the Imperium itself), GW can't afford to appease one group of complaining neckbeards over another which would complain even more loudly if their armies were suddenly made unusable.

At the same time, it would be equally risky for GW to risk upsetting the status quo for any other race. For example, if the [[Tyranids]] started arriving in full force, the [[Tau]] would cease to exist as well because they'd be the first to get nommed; naturally, this would infuriate Tau players. The [[Eldar]] dying out completely and forming [[Ynnead]] would meet with an equally chilly reception from both Eldar and [[Slaanesh]] players. Similarly, unified [[Necrons]] would be such a juggernaut that they'd be able to wipe out all other factions effortlessly, which is also something GW wants to avoid. If the removal of the Squats (which were always a rather small army with only a handful of players) was enough to produce a major outcry, then the [[rage]] produced by the removal of a major faction will be truly unimaginable.

Basically, in order to keep everyone happy, any advancement of the status quo in 40k would have to result in all the factions still being more or less equally matched. That is, the same essential status quo would have to be maintained, making the plot advancement meaningless. Meaningfully advancing the story would logically spell death for a playable faction, and GeeDubs has no financial incentive to kill off a playable faction. Would you want to play a [[Imperium of Man|faction that gets canonically boned no matter how well you play?]] No, no you would not, <s>and GeeDubs won't ever do that to you.</s> WRONG, see the End Times below.

[[File:WOW.jpg|1200px|thumb|center|In the 8th game of the World of Warcraft series, which was the first since the current 8th editions of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K, they also advanced the storyline following the same trend, as we have an official Alliance-Horde war for the first time since Warcraft 3, in total coordination with the real world when long unsettled conflicts, such as the Arab-Israeli war, Grexit, Kim Jong-un, US-China trade war, Fascism emergerging in Europe starting from Italy, Neo-ottomanism, American civil war, Monroe dogma over Nicolas Maduro and Lula and even a volcano in Hawaii erupting, are simultaneously all emerging as if we are truly living in a novel.]]

==Why they're right==
On the other hand, [[Privateer Press]] has managed to pull off a metaplot in a wargame just fine with [[WARMACHINE]] and [[Hordes]], and there's no reason that it should be any different for 40k. Besides, given the fact that GW is already expanding the scope of the game to include the previously untouchable events of the [[Horus Heresy]], it's perfectly possible for them (and probably quite profitable since it would give them an excuse to make a new line of minis) to start encompassing events further into the future as well as into the past of the setting. (Some can say that they're already doing so now with the increased emphasis on the "[[Time of Ending]]" in the current codices.)

On top of that, it can be argued that the central story of 40k is the story of the Imperium's fall from glory and slow decline, which must by definition end with either the Emperor getting revived or the destruction of the Imperium of Man, and failing to resolve this central storyline is slowly causing the whole story to stagnate as it runs out of events and gaps to fill in. Even the evolving stories that [[your dudes]] were once capable of creating can no longer exist because there is simply nothing left to evolve. Remember how the [[Eye of Terror]] Campaign ended in a victory for Chaos? Instead of allowing its results to change the background (via [[Abbadon]] taking [[Cadia]]), GW instead decided to backpedal in a way that ultimately made the events of the campaign utterly meaningless. How can you have an emergent narrative take place when any sign that it might upset the way things are now results in it being retconned or otherwise made insignificant?

Another major problem caused by the setting's stagnation is the presence of numerous plotholes which form as a byproduct of GW's insistence in squeezing the shit out of 999.M41. A good example of this is the [[Knights of Blood]] defending [[Baal]] AND attacking the [[Farsight]] Enclaves in the same year despite the fact that they are on opposite sides of the galaxy. The only way to fix that would be to retcon the date, which would create problems of its own depending on where they inserted the new date, or to use warp fuckery since warp travel occasionally has you appear at your destination some time before you left, and because there's always a helpful retcon lying around.

The biggest problem is that Games Workshop loves their status quo. They'll advance the story in bits and pieces but never anything that changes the status quo. In 40K, in Games Workshop's vision:

* The [[Imperium]] will always be stagnant and rotting, but they'll never be destroyed <s>or fractured</s> Dark Imperium (helps that they're a Creator's Pet and, due to all the updates and attention from GW, the bestselling faction(or the other way around; it's hard to say at this point)).
* The [[Eldar]] will always be full of arrogant people, dying and trying to rebuild their empire, but never progress, succeed or go extinct.
* The [[Tau]] will always be a new, expanding empire with hints of [[grimdark]] beneath their benevolent façade, but never get too grimdark or expand to the point where they threaten the Imperium.
* The [[Chaos Space Marines]] will always be trying to overthrow the Imperium, have a grudge against it and be under Abbadon's leadership, but never succeed in a way that puts the Imperium in jeopardy or puts someone besides Abbadon in charge.
* The [[Chaos Daemons]] will always be corrupting things and fighting, but never win a lasting victory or suffer a permanent setback.
* The [[Necrons]] will always be an ancient empire slowly reawakening with each faction following the dictates of their Overlord, with the C'tan either enslaved or in hiding and planning to restore themselves to their former might; but never fully awaken, fully be destroyed, or fully unite, and the C'tan will never be completely enslaved to the Necrons or completely free.
* The [[Tyranids]] will always be a major galactic threat answerable only to the [[Hive Mind]] and will never ally with non-Tyranids, but will never win, be wiped out or wipe out or weaken a playable faction.
* The [[Squats|non-]][[Hrud|playable]] [[Slann|factions]] will always get a token mention, but never get time in the limelight or become powerful enough to challenge a major faction.

It was thought the [[Orks]] would always just wage wars for fun, but never unite to pose a threat to the galaxy, and given Ork nature, this actually makes sense. However, the [[Warhammer 40,000/Tactics/Orks(7E)|7th Edition]] Ork Codex advances [[Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka]]'s storyline, describing how he broke off from his wars with [[Helbrecht]] and [[Yarrick]] to bring all other Orks together in one, galaxy-spanning [[WAAAGH]]. So canonically, the Orks are actually getting their shit together, though this hypothetical WAAAGH of Thraka's will likely be stuck forever in the process of being formed.

==Other points==
There is also the matter that some of the [[Ciaphas Cain]] books take place in the early years of M42 (though his adventures are not exactly Imperium-shaking events). If those can be considered part of the fluff now, what's to stop it from going further than that?

It also bears mentioning that changes can be made to the storyline without altering the tabletop. [[Warhammer Fantasy]] kills off major characters (for example all the named characters currently available to the [[Vampire Counts]] army, half of the Orcs and Goblins characters and now ALL the [[Skaven]].) and they are still fieldable in the game. The plot of the setting progresses beyond that point and introduces new characters, encouraging players to not simply play "in the present" but instead just pick someplace in the timeline for their battle. Sure you run into inconsistencies when someone long dead is fighting the army of someone not even born when they were alive. But hey! Necromancy, gods intervening, and Chaos fuckery make a good explanation, as does the age-old rationalization of "shut up and just play the game". If one were to take that approach to 40k via advanced technology of some kind, Warp-related time distortions, or the aforementioned Chaos fuckery, then anyone can appear at any time if the players wish it despite them being killed off in canon. Plot can progress, everyone gets to keep their favorite canon from the past, everyone wins. In fact, this has already happened in canon- Captain Tycho has been dead since the Third War for Armageddon, as is Lord Solar Macharius, but that doesn't stop either of them from being playable. Hell, even [[Eldrad]] was dead for a while before the retcon hit. Don't forget about Aun'va. (Tycho is a bad example here because GW has obviously been trying to make it so no one plays him anyway because his rules are a steaming pile of shit that get worse every edition. So, yeah?)

TL;DR- While shaking up the setting some might leave some people rather grumpy, making significant changes has just as good of a chance of making things better instead of worse for the players, and if handled well those chances go up. Unfortunately, GW is really, really bad at it.

== Beyond the 41st Millennium ==
Of course, while Games Workshop may never enter the 42nd Millennium, that doesn't stop us from writing up fanfics that do so (or from bickering over which possible portrayal is more likely to actually occur).

* [[The ship moves]], a setting where, in the grim darkness of the 51st Millennium, the God-Emperor of Mankind orders the construction of a giant ark to leave the failing [[Imperium]] behind.
* [[Story:The Shape Of The Nightmare To Come 50k]], a plot that manages to become even ''MORE'' grimdark than it already was, with the Emprah croaking, the Imperium splintered into [[Khaine]]-knows-how-many pieces, and several other incredibly crappy things changing the universe even further.
* [[Return of the Primarchs]], where the fall of Cadia coincides with the fleets of the fallen/dead Primarchs from before the HH, the Lost Primarchs get found and they all band together to help the living ones get up and bring the Imperium to a more presentable state. What seems to be happening in 8th.
* [[End Times]], Emps dies and is [[Heresy|re-incarnated as a woman.]]
*Legion XI: [[Age of Sigmar]] is actually lost primarch Sigmar's madness in the warp. [[The Emperor]] finds him. Galaxy goes [[Heresy|Imperium-hating]] even more than now. [[Warhammer fantasy]] returns.

==Fundamental Misunderstandings==
The problem in 40k is basically the date. That's it. The fluff writers can really can just play grab ass going back and forth over and over for another ten thousand years with no real setting defining changes easily enough. After all they've already done that once - The whole timeline from the heresy to today has resulted in basically no major changes but has still felt interesting. The status quo doesn't need to change, but there really does need to be some space for new fluff going forward so it's not just being stuffed in around existing events. We already have canon conflicts, and it'll only get worse to the point where everyone in the fluff is established as being at one specific place in 999.M41 and that's it. No more new fluff. You can leave out the major events, just takes us some number of years forward so things are actually interesting again. Or, hell, go BACK. There's absolutely nothing wrong with filling in TEN THOUSAND YEARS of time over a galaxy of space to make an interesting story!

==Exploring 10,000 years of factions and history==
Interestingly GeeDubs has actually made fluff from periods other than the end of the 41st millenium, The [[Horus Heresy]] is perhaps the biggest example of how the long timeline of the Imperium can be further exploited for new settings, with the armies of the 31st millenium being factions of their own and quite different than the current space marine chapters and [[Adeptus Mechanicus]] forces, and while some of the novels of that period have been lacklusting we have got other which are rightly among the best productions of Black Library. Similarly [[Battlefleet Gothic]] was set during the 12th [[Black Crusade]] and allowed the fans to take a look to the naval forces of the different factions, with a recent videogame allowing a sort of resurrection and rumours about a possible resurrection of the tabletop game.

It can be pointed out that Gaunt's Ghosts were set centuries before the current time period, yet it has allowed for a very popular book series without actually requiring to interact with the 13th Crusade, showing an actual good use of the Galaxy.

The novel series The Beast Arises has been covering the [[War of The Beast]] and the Beheading, allowing for new possible scenarios and campaigns and exploring the fate of Sisters of Silence, the emergence of the [[Deathwatch]] and the Ordo Xenos as well as bringing a new array of characters and potential new units as well as revealing unsuspected secrets from well establisehd factions, [[skub|and while some people didn't take it well other have quite enjoyed]] the chance of checking back the 32nd millenium with hopes of seeing other events explored.

==Warhammer Fantasy==
Unlike Warhammer 40k, the plotline of [[Warhammer Fantasy]] d̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶d̶v̶a̶n̶c̶e(did advance), but in small increments (which adds up to something big). Each edition and army book usually adds a little more fluff to the past (and maybe a retcon or two), rarely an update to the big prophesied battle between good and evil that decides the settings future, and a plot hook in the present.
For example, the 8th edition [[Vampire Counts]] and [[High Elves]] army books ([[Codex]] for 40k players) added a new story to the end of the army timelines that mentions how [[Mannfred von Carstein]] kidnapped the [[Everqueen]]'s daughter Aliathra, and is going to sacrifice her like a Frazetta painting to bring back the settings big BIG bad [[Nagash]] and that the greatest hero of the High Elves, Tyrion, has saved her and is riding at the head of a large High Elf army about to clash with a large Undead army.

Smaller updates (mainly gimmicks to sell a book and some models) like [[Storm of Magic]] will add a whole new event that extends the "present day" by a few months to a year. The infamous [[Warhammer Online]] was entirely non-canon which may have been what doomed it from the start. Regardless, Fantasy isn't THAT adventurous about advancing its plotline, but advancing it ''some'' hasn't sunk the ship.

===[[The End Times]] and [[Age of Sigmar]]: The Ultimate Arguments against Advancing the Storyline===
In late 2014, GW finally decided to advance the storyline just as the players wished. The general consensus of this was that it was pretty cool. The fools...

The Nagash book introduced these major changes by bringing back [[Nagash]] as a superpower in his own right. Heroes were killed and Chaos was for once not the big title threat, except to the Empire, since Nagash was getting ready to kick them out and take the world for himself. Many non-playable human nations were decimated and Nagash led all the Vampire Counts to Nehekhara. After a series of lengthy battles he overthrew Settra, forced most of the Tomb Kings to serve him and effectively destroyed Nehekhara's cities so it ceased to exist as a nation.

The Glottkin book saw the Empire become leveled between the titular triplets, Festus, and the others, and little else happened except an undead cameo with Vlad laying the groundwork to become Vampire Emperor. It...didn't work though he made progress.

The Khaine book was the book where the outlook of the End Times started whipping around. All of a sudden, Teclis became a master manipulator bar none, [[Malekith]] was revealed to be the true king all along and everyone was just a usurper. Tyron became an utter asshole and turned into Khaine incarnate, only to die like a bitch to Malekith and Alith Anar. The end result meant that all the elves got slapped into a single army, which caused frustration among the separate bases.

Thanquol just made things even worse, as the rest of the Empire finally collapsed with [[Valten]]'s death, Lustria gets blasted by meteors, the surviving Lizardmen go "Thanks for all the fish" and fly off into space, the Skaven destroy everyone who isn't the Empire or Bretonnia offscreen (and Bretonnia is also destroyed offscreen as well), and more Dwarfs get chopped. Also Gobbla got eaten, cue Goblin tears. We close with Skaven allying with the forces of Chaos.

Now Archaon was where shit broke. To make a long story short, Chaos wins and everyone dies, and there wasn't a damned thing anyone could do to stop it. And that they had been doing this to every universe that had preceded the then-current one, so they would just keep winning over and over again no matter what anyone did about it. By the end of the book, the entire Warhammer World had ceased to exist and every army and named character was killed off if they weren't already dead. In short, it was what GW wanted Storm of Chaos to be, but without that irritating "player interaction" messing up the plot they had planned out.

In a sense, one could see this as a monkey's paw wish; the fanbase finally got the Fantasy setting to advance, but it led to said setting being destroyed and replaced by a completely different setting. One could fearfully wonder now just what would happen if the End Times treatment happened to 40K, and the general consensus is "even the complete stagnation we have now is better than their insane ideas of progression." But if Games Workshop does the same to 40k, it likely means they're going out of business, because that setting has, among other things, their [[Space Marines|creator's pets]]. (And as it turns out, several of their new books seem to be showing disturbing parallels to The End Times...so make of that what you will.)

Age of Sigmar added another monkey wrench into the works; while the plot is nominally progressing with the promise of further developments in the future, it's not necessarily going to be a good thing given GW's track record thus far, and beyond a few shared characters who lack most of their original defining characteristics, most of the "new" Warhammer setting is barely recognizable as being connected to the old one at all. Two long-time factions, Bretonnia and the Tomb Kings, [[FAIL|were squatted without even an explanation]]. In short, advancing the storyline only works when the people writing it aren't absolutely clueless on how to do so, and GW has shown absolutely no signs of being remotely competent enough to pull it off. Unfortunately, recent events in 40k suggest Geedubs has learned nothing from the experience and is on the verge of doing the same thing again.

While the game has certainly improved since its release, especially in the gameplay sector, as an actual narrative setting it still leaves a lot to be desired (one of the most glaring examples is us not knowing how half the realms look like, how they function or even how realms function in general). This (coupled with the destruction of a setting that was well liked narratively, if not competitively) means Age of Sigmar can still be seen as an against to advancing the storyline (though what the New Games Workshop(tm)has so far shown us regarding 40k is [[Skub|promising]]).

==Yep, They're Doing It==
2017 barely had time to start before GeeDubs released ''Fall of Cadia''. With this, the clock has finally struck midnight and the year 41,000 officially begins. And this being 40k, instead of just dropping the Times Square Ball in a shower of fireworks and cheering, they drop the entire planet in a shower of shredded limbs and howling of the dead. [[Creed]] loses his arm AND [[Colour Sergeant Jarran Kell|Jarran Kell]], [[Abbadon]] loses his spleen, [[Trazyn]] shows up and gives the Imperium instructions on how to supercharged the pylons to the point they close the [[Eye of Terror]] for a moment, and <s>the Chaos gods call a bullshit DM fiat and blow up the planet AFTER the Necron anti-warp pylons have been turned up to maximum</s> Abaddon sacrifices his [[Blackstone Fortress]] and rams the planet in a failed gambit to finally [[Awesome|kill Creed]], blowing up the [[Cadian Pylons|pylons]] and giving the Cadian 8th the best fucking last stand ever as the Eye opens up and spews forth all of the [[Chaos]] all over [[Cadia]]. Creed barely survives, and is taken by Trazyn as a souvenir before he can bleed out because this is Trazyn we're talking about here.

[[Eldrad]] got himself put on trial for being a dick even by [[Eldar]] standards, but was vindicated when it turned out he really did manage to awaken [[Ynnead]] early. Ynnead's fledgeling faction of followers has since rallied members of all three major Eldar factions to itself, with the goal of bringing Ynnead to its full strength. Following the near-destruction of Biel-Tan by Chaos, they resolved to seek an alliance with the Imperium against their common enemy- no tricks or deception this time, just an agreement to not kill each other while the Dark Gods are on their doorsteps.

And to cap it all off, [[Roboute Guilliman]] was [[Matt Ward|brought back to life]] with the help of said Eldar and became Lord Commander of the Imperium once again. Predictably, he was rather upset with how far the Imperium had fallen since he was last conscious.

[[Warhammer 40,000 8th edition]] has been putting all of the above into overdrive; when the giant Warp storm dividing the Imperium in half is one of the '''smaller''' changes seen thus far, you know things are going to be shaken up. Hard. As of April 2018, the setting has continued to move forward since the release of the new edition, but thankfully the setting does not appear to be on the same path as The End Times. Not yet, at least.

==See Also==
*[[Your dudes]]

[[Category:Warhammer 40,000]]
[[Category: Warhammer Fantasy]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:42:57Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to acquaint with its reflections in our ludicrous lives, redefined by overwhelmingly shocking surprises.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:41:18Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to its reflections in our ludicrous lives, redefined by overwhelmingly shocking surprises.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:40:57Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to its reflections in our ludicrous lives, overwhelmed by overwhelmingly shocking surprises.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:40:17Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to its reflections in our ludicrous lives, overwhelmed by shocking surprises that paralyse us.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:39:53Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to its reflections in our ludicrous lives, overwhelmed by shocking surprises.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:39:15Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to its reflections in our overhelmed by breathtaking surprises redefined ludicrous lives.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:38:16Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to to its reflections in our overhelmed by shocking surprises redefined ludicrous lives.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:37:56Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to to its reflections in our overhelmed by breathtaking surprises redefined ludicrous lives.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:37:05Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|620px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to to its reflections in our overhelmed by surprises redefined lives.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:36:42Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|600px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to to its reflections in our overhelmed by surprises redefined lives.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:35:52Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|600px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to to its reflections in our redefined lives.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:35:20Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|550px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to to its reflections in our redefined lives.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:34:39Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|550px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to get accustomed to its reflections.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:34:20Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|550px|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to get accustomed to its reflections in our redefined lives.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Powergamer

2018-05-23T23:34:00Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

[[Image:Timmypowergamer.jpg|thumb|right| [[Magic:_The_Gathering#Players|Heres how us cardfags see powergamers.]] ]]

"'''Powergamer'''" also known as "Spike" by [[Magic: The Gathering|Magic]] players, a name chosen specifically because it sounds all [[Serious Business]] and boring, is a term describing players who are interested in winning and, more to the point, winning big. Exactly how they do this depends on the game.

Powergamers who play [[RPG]]s generally attempt to make their characters as effective as possible within the game's framework, possibly (but not necessarily) by exploiting broken or badly worded rules. The term is usually used pejoratively, suggesting that the player in question only cares about the mechanical power of their character and this comes at the expense of roleplaying. Although there is nothing intrinsic to powergaming that inhibits good roleplaying (aka. the Stormwind Fallacy), such behavior is a magnet for ''[[That Guy]]'' because it allows him to steal the spotlight, lord it over to other players, annoy the [[GM]] and/or generally suck the fun out of the game for everyone else.

In wargaming: powergamers are less likely to be referred to as such due to its association with level-scaling systems, and are typically referred to as '''"tourneyfags"''', "WAAC players" (standing for Win At All Costs) or merely "competitive players" which are generally [[Skub|neutral]] terms. Powergamers are especially hated in the wargaming community as they typically exude a noxious odor, have no interest in fun besides their own and are the number one reason people new to the hobby ragequit immediately.

A somewhat milder term with a similar meaning is "'''optimiser'''", which generally lacks the negative connotations of powergamer, in that they won't typically suck the fun out of anything they touch. An optimiser wants to beat the game, but at least realizes you need to be at least two to play it so he isn't a jerk about it.

=== Munchkins ===
At the other end of the scale is the "'''twink'''" or "'''munchkin'''", which is almost always used to refer to someone who cares only about mechanical power (to the exclusion of roleplaying), or is willing to outright cheat if he thinks he won't get caught, or there will be no consequences if caught, as is demonstrated by the [[Munchkin (Card Game)|"Munchkin" series of card games]] by [[Steve Jackson Games]].

Everyday powergamers are easily forgiveable, since there is a healthy respect for the way that any given game system functions, and their actions are perfectly excusable since the rules allow (and can be argued "encourage") them to do so. Depending on the setting or ruleset, a powergamer can garner a healthy measure of accolade for coming up with new levels of "optimal" play.

By contrast, Munchkins have a marked tendency to be more creative in their interpretations of rules; where a typical powergamer would look at a ruleset and use it to their maximum advantage, a munchkin's typical response to their detractors is that nothing in the rules say that they cannot do something.

In wargaming, the equivalent to munchkin would be '''WAAC''' (Win At All Cost) players, who focus almost entirely on overpowered/broken units or rules or armies, rather than attempting to create an efficient or optimal army list.

True Munchkins rarely, ''if ever'', gain positive recognition for their accomplishments.

== Identifying a Powergamer ==
Everyone who plays a game with a rule-based system (whether competitive or cooperative) is a powergamer to one degree or another. As everyone who plays wants to do their best and so long as people know the rules they can understand what is comparatively better than another, so unless someone gets a kick about playing the underdog or seeing others outperform themselves, it's simply in the nature of the system.

Habitual powergamers might argue that they are not powergaming at all and that they are just playing the same way as everyone else, but are easy to spot based on their behaviour and appearance, which is generally the same regardless of which system/ruleset they are using.

In systems which undergo regular revisions or receive frequent updates, powergamers will often stand out due to their fickle attitudes. Often becoming obsessed with the next "new" rulebook/codex/splatbook which will either be an improvement over anything previously released or is new enough that it has not been effectively countered or debunked by the community at large. In these situations, a gamer who requests a re-roll of his character or sells his old army on ebay to fund his next one are generally going to be powergamers.
*Note: it doesn't have to be freshly released rules or player options to count as "new", but can also be from the point at which the player discovers that he can do something new that he starts changing his attitudes in favour of his latest obsession.

Lack of imagination when it comes to character/army builds is also a clear indication; people who [[Netlist|hunt internet forums/help-sites for optimal builds]] tend to be powergamers, as it shows that the player is more interested in "winning" than actually playing the game in their own fashion. ''(see the rage summary below)'' Powergamers who also rely too heavily on public-domain builds can also reveal themselves to be poor players and tend to have the most difficulty adjusting when someone else presents them with a unique situation or when new rulebooks get released ''(but then they jump ship)''

They also tend to be quite vocal in their disappointment if they or others alongside them are not playing "optimally". For example: in RPG sessions if the group [[healer]] is not playing a build that they think is optimal for healing and could be bringing the group down. This is extremely visible in [[MMORPG]]s where non-optimal players tend to get kicked from raid groups. On the tabletop, they'll tend to complain that their losses during games are because they don't yet own the right combination of models/units ''(but will [[derp|"soon"]])'' or that [[Butthurt|you cheated]]. ''(Either way, it's not their "fault" that they lost)''

Considering the issue from a different angle, Powergamers usually like to brag about the [[CharOp|killing efficiency of their characters]], putting emphasis on the hard work necessary to support their uber character. Interestingly, as soon as it is touched upon the extreme efficiency-build, they usually get very defensive about it. Watch out for someone defending their character as "not imba" before the accusation is made.

Taking this further, players who get called out on their powergaming will often go to obsessive lengths to tell you how their character is NOT the result of powergaming or munchkin-fu and will have a defence seemingly prepared before the question gets raised. They'll often immediately go into great detail about what their character is bad at, or cannot do as well as other party members to try and convince you why their character is balanced. Unfortunately for them, this has all the hallmarks of being a powergamer anyway, because obviously they've considered the issue at '''great''' length before getting into the argument; it's like they think the fact that they have a [[Dump Stat]] deserves positive recognition and would be like pointing out their [[Wizard]] cannot fight in melee as well as a [[Warblade]], when that wasn't really the issue in the first place. Of course this would also be similar behaviour to how someone being unjustly accused of being a powergamer might react, especially if they are naturally prone to considering all the angles. Being aware of your models' own strengths and weaknesses does not automatically make one a powergamer, and sometimes you might just get fucked over by a bad match-up. Generally, just remember you could be wrong unless that kind of thing happens over and over.

== In Summary ==
[[Rage|RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE]]

If you've played against one in any game, was it fun? Did you like having your balls ground to a pulp? Fuck no. Nothing is worse than [[that guy]] who spams [[Abaddon]] AND [[Kharn]] AND three fucking [[Land Raider|Land Raiders]] because of a technicality. They're all dedicated transports? FUCK THAT NOISE, GTFO MY STORE. Or the guy who manages to get <s>4</s> <s>5</s> <s>'''6'''</s> <s>'''7'''</s> '''21''' riptides in a single list because of GWs vague rules.

Ever played against an IG armoured list? No? Pray you never do, because that list displays a level of asshattery (and disposable income) on a godlike level. Seriously, fucking TANKS as TROOP CHOICES?! OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF! Necrons don't care though so... Allies much?

Did you know that it's theoretically possible for a player in the original [[World of Darkness]] to have the powers of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|a vampire]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|a werewolf]], ''and'' [[Mage: The Ascension|a mage]] '''at the same fucking time'''? Why even bring a fucking party?!

For anyone playing a game simply to have fun and enjoy a good story, a powergamer is your number one enemy. Avoid at all costs. They'll fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday and five ways to Monday simply because they can. The only cure for powergamers is exile; avoid, ignore and generally make it plain they are not welcome to your game/store/house/existence.

== Dealing with Powergamers ==

[[File:FacebookGiotaTsirou.jpg|thumb|left|Panagiota Tsirou, a 200 pound girl of short stature with unnatural agility that is incompatible with the physical boundaries that her obese biological structure should obviously follow, proving that a twisted disfigurement of reality is already existent, unleashing the incomprehensible influence of the warp in ways too unimaginable for anyone to get accustomed to get accustomed to its reflections in our redefined lives.]]

=== In Roleplaying ===
Being the GM of a party with a munchkin/powergamer can be quite tricky, since it can radically unbalance the group in many situations. For example, if he's somehow got himself infinite ''(figuratively speaking)'' armor-class then introducing a hard hitting counter to him could be absolutely devastating to the rest of the group if they aren't also powergamers.

Best thing to do would be to speak to them away from the gaming table and discuss winding it back a notch, or at the very least concentrate his powergaming efforts onto just one thing in particular and stop being a do-it-all mary sue. Unless your powergamer is a dick you may find that this works best and keeps tears to a minimum.

Failing that, you can always read their character sheet to see precisely what will work against them, though this may require a lot of work on your part to piece it all together. The unkillable party tank may be weak against compulsions or fear effects, or the god-like wizard becomes useless in a magical dead-zone or wild-magic area, which would force him and the party to come up with more creative solutions rather than "throw the powergamer at it"

If that doesn't work or if you cannot find an easier solution, then a stern reminder is in order. A powergamer is beholden to the rules of the game, even if he twists them to his own advantage to create something more powerful than the sum of its parts. A good GM is but a bad GM is not. Still, When dealing with a fun-sucking powergamer, it's not bad GMing, it's saving the fucking game. You are the Neo to the gamer's Agent Smith and you can invent things on a case-by-case basis to give the powergamer a spanking.

:''Unkillable PC Barbarian? Meet the "actually" unkillable barbarian with axe of instant death, he kills you but the party's weak-ass rogue could one-shot him to death by stabbing him in the neck. That's not in the rules you say? I'm the GM and can rationalise whatever I like in the world I built. That's not fair you say? Did you really think I'd let you walk over my game every week? [[Oberoni_Fallacy|Is that you Oberoni?]]

Can be harsh, but if your GM style is not harsh in the the first place ''(i.e: anything other than Killer GM)'' then your players should have realised that powergaming was absolutely unnecessary in the first place and that there isn't really a "winner" in a game that only goes on as long as the GM can be bothered putting up with you guys.

Of course the other side of the coin is definetely worth remembering as well. There is only going to be a game as long as people find it fun. And being rail-roaded by a DM and his army of NPCs who are better at everything than the PCs because they use magical DM powers that let them ignore the rules, then you probably won't have players for long. This holds especially true when it's done because the DM couldn't be bothered enough to actually make encounters that would be challenging for the group as a whole without ignoring the rules (when all he had to do was use his brain and target the big dumb guy with the huge sword with a "mental" spell.)

So all in all it's very important to look at what's going on and TALK to people about any problems that's perceived. If both parties are willing to actually listen in an attempt to understand and NOT just waiting their turn to respond, then you can almost always find a solution (unless one or both are petty cunts).

=== In Wargaming ===
Just '''don't play''' with them and make certain that other people are aware of the sort of opponent they are too, so your friends can make the same decision. If you get no enjoyment out of the game there is no point in playing, wargaming is not a job or sport that requires your absolute commitment. Your opponent will find that they have no-one to play with either. Whoop-di-do if they've got an unbeatable spam list if no-one will give them the smug satisfaction of beating people stupid enough to play against them. This goes double for true munchkin players who exploit bad RAW to get advantages they shouldn't have.

Failing that, if there is no-one else to play with in your area, or if you are at a tournament that kind of ''requires'' your participation, if you can't beat them... join them. Unfortunately this means stooping to your opponent's level. If you need help with becoming your own worst nightmare, there are plenty of tactica and [[netlist]]s out there which can help you to build your army. Just don't let it go to your head. Alternatively; just leave. Eventually there will be so few showing up to tourneys that either the offending players will stop coming (and therefore allowing tournaments to re-engage) or they'll be stuck in a room of their fellow cheeselords (named for the odor as much for the strategy) which is a private hell on its own.

=== In Card Games ===
Do what you would do with wargamers, don't play with that person who is playing that [[Rage|top dier netdeck who solely wants to beat you]], just leave him alone and refuse to play, maybe go off and play [[Commander]].

== Examples of Powergamers/Munchkins ==
*Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, when he makes custom Pokemon, Digimon, and/or Yu-gi-oh trading cards
*Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, who also uses custom cards, and munchkins his way around a group ban on "home-made" cards by making them at work.

[[Category:Roleplaying]]
[[Category:Gamer Slang]]

Advancing the Storyline

2018-05-23T23:30:29Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

Advancing the Storyline

2018-05-23T23:29:39Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

'''Advancing the Storyline''' is what a great number of [[neckbeards]] believe that [[Games Workshop]] <s>needs</s> needed to do with [[Warhammer 40,000]]. On [[/tg/]], [[Warseer]], [[Bolter and Chainsword]], and [[Dakka Dakka]], people complain and grumble about how <s>the storyline never moves beyond the year 999.M41, with [[Abaddon the Despoiler]]'s 13th [[Black Crusade]] on the very brink of taking [[Cadia]], ''for real this time''</s> (except he actually did in The Gathering Storm and the setting has now reached 000.M42. Does this mean they have to change the name to Warhammer 41,000?), the [[Tyranid]] [[Hive Fleet]]s closing in on [[Terra]], the [[Astronomican]] flickering and fading, and the [[Golden Throne]] being one [[Adeptus Custodes]]' sneeze away from shutting down permanently.

Recently, GW seems to have been inching the plot forwards in parts around the Imperium, with expanded information on the 13th Black Crusade, Daemon Primarchs coming about, and [[Adeptus Custodes|Super-Super-Soldiers]] being forced into the fray, GW is upsetting the status quo that's been stagnating for the last ten millennia and past four editions (give or take), laying the groundwork for moving things forward. And with rumblings about 40K 8thEd., it seems 40K is moving towards its own version of [[The End Times]]. For reasons listed below and in the End Times article, this is all but guaranteed to be the largest mass of [[skub]] /tg/ has ever seen.

'''[[Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition|It Happened.]]'''

==Why they're wrong==
Some people — [[Aaron Dembski-Bowden|Daddy Issues Dembski]] being one of its most frequent proponents — hold the view that this attitude is a load of shit, and that it completely misunderstands the nature of the 40k setting.

This is because 40k isn't a story, and in fact, doesn't have a "storyline"; while events from it, such as the [[Black Crusade]]s and the [[Badab War]], have had their stories told, there's no single, overarching story that the setting exists to tell (unlike universes such as those of [[Star Wars]] or [[Doctor Who]]; even though other stories exist in those settings, they're anchored in a central, unifying one). 40k is simply a setting in which stories take place, and has ten thousand years and a whole galaxy in which to set them, so expecting the timeline to "advance" to "continue" or "finish" the "story" is a stupid idea.

The other, more practical issue with advancing the storyline is that a major change to it is likely to have severe reprecussions on one or more of the different factions, which may not always be welcome changes. To use the most obvious example, consider what effect story progression would have on the Imperium of Man. The majority of 40k players favor one of the many Imperium-aligned factions. Assuming that the [[God-Emperor of Mankind|God-Emperor]] doesn't get resurrected and the Golden Throne isn't fixed before it fails (which itself is rather unlikely and has a good chance of causing problems of its own), the sheer number of threats that the [[Imperium]] faces on a constant basis will tear it apart as soon as the Emperor snuffs it, leading to the enslavement and/or destruction of humanity. And no Imperium means that about half of the armies currently in the game will no longer exist, leaving numerous [[fa/tg/uys]] stuck with unusable armies and a serious grudge over being given the [[Squat]] treatment. Needless to say, Games Workshop's profits would be hit incredibly hard by the departure of so many paying customers, so they have no choice but to keep the Imperium afloat. Although this has the infuriating side effect of causing the setting to grow stagnant and unchanging (much like the Imperium itself), GW can't afford to appease one group of complaining neckbeards over another which would complain even more loudly if their armies were suddenly made unusable.

At the same time, it would be equally risky for GW to risk upsetting the status quo for any other race. For example, if the [[Tyranids]] started arriving in full force, the [[Tau]] would cease to exist as well because they'd be the first to get nommed; naturally, this would infuriate Tau players. The [[Eldar]] dying out completely and forming [[Ynnead]] would meet with an equally chilly reception from both Eldar and [[Slaanesh]] players. Similarly, unified [[Necrons]] would be such a juggernaut that they'd be able to wipe out all other factions effortlessly, which is also something GW wants to avoid. If the removal of the Squats (which were always a rather small army with only a handful of players) was enough to produce a major outcry, then the [[rage]] produced by the removal of a major faction will be truly unimaginable.

Basically, in order to keep everyone happy, any advancement of the status quo in 40k would have to result in all the factions still being more or less equally matched. That is, the same essential status quo would have to be maintained, making the plot advancement meaningless. Meaningfully advancing the story would logically spell death for a playable faction, and GeeDubs has no financial incentive to kill off a playable faction. Would you want to play a [[Imperium of Man|faction that gets canonically boned no matter how well you play?]] No, no you would not, <s>and GeeDubs won't ever do that to you.</s> WRONG, see the End Times below.

[[File:WOW.jpg|1200px|thumb|center|In the 8th game of the World of Warcraft series, which was the first since the current 8th editions of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K, they also advanced the storyline following the same trend, as we have an official Alliance-Horde war for the first time since Warcraft 3, in total coordination with the real world when long unsettled conflicts, such as the Arab-Israeli war, Grexit, Kim Jong-un, US-China trade war, Fascism emergerging in Europe starting from Italy, Neo-ottomanism, American civil war, Monroe dogma over Nicolas Maduro and Lula and even a volcano in Hawaii erupting, are simultaneously all emerging as if we are living in a piece of literature of some godlike author.]]

==Why they're right==
On the other hand, [[Privateer Press]] has managed to pull off a metaplot in a wargame just fine with [[WARMACHINE]] and [[Hordes]], and there's no reason that it should be any different for 40k. Besides, given the fact that GW is already expanding the scope of the game to include the previously untouchable events of the [[Horus Heresy]], it's perfectly possible for them (and probably quite profitable since it would give them an excuse to make a new line of minis) to start encompassing events further into the future as well as into the past of the setting. (Some can say that they're already doing so now with the increased emphasis on the "[[Time of Ending]]" in the current codices.)

On top of that, it can be argued that the central story of 40k is the story of the Imperium's fall from glory and slow decline, which must by definition end with either the Emperor getting revived or the destruction of the Imperium of Man, and failing to resolve this central storyline is slowly causing the whole story to stagnate as it runs out of events and gaps to fill in. Even the evolving stories that [[your dudes]] were once capable of creating can no longer exist because there is simply nothing left to evolve. Remember how the [[Eye of Terror]] Campaign ended in a victory for Chaos? Instead of allowing its results to change the background (via [[Abbadon]] taking [[Cadia]]), GW instead decided to backpedal in a way that ultimately made the events of the campaign utterly meaningless. How can you have an emergent narrative take place when any sign that it might upset the way things are now results in it being retconned or otherwise made insignificant?

Another major problem caused by the setting's stagnation is the presence of numerous plotholes which form as a byproduct of GW's insistence in squeezing the shit out of 999.M41. A good example of this is the [[Knights of Blood]] defending [[Baal]] AND attacking the [[Farsight]] Enclaves in the same year despite the fact that they are on opposite sides of the galaxy. The only way to fix that would be to retcon the date, which would create problems of its own depending on where they inserted the new date, or to use warp fuckery since warp travel occasionally has you appear at your destination some time before you left, and because there's always a helpful retcon lying around.

The biggest problem is that Games Workshop loves their status quo. They'll advance the story in bits and pieces but never anything that changes the status quo. In 40K, in Games Workshop's vision:

* The [[Imperium]] will always be stagnant and rotting, but they'll never be destroyed <s>or fractured</s> Dark Imperium (helps that they're a Creator's Pet and, due to all the updates and attention from GW, the bestselling faction(or the other way around; it's hard to say at this point)).
* The [[Eldar]] will always be full of arrogant people, dying and trying to rebuild their empire, but never progress, succeed or go extinct.
* The [[Tau]] will always be a new, expanding empire with hints of [[grimdark]] beneath their benevolent façade, but never get too grimdark or expand to the point where they threaten the Imperium.
* The [[Chaos Space Marines]] will always be trying to overthrow the Imperium, have a grudge against it and be under Abbadon's leadership, but never succeed in a way that puts the Imperium in jeopardy or puts someone besides Abbadon in charge.
* The [[Chaos Daemons]] will always be corrupting things and fighting, but never win a lasting victory or suffer a permanent setback.
* The [[Necrons]] will always be an ancient empire slowly reawakening with each faction following the dictates of their Overlord, with the C'tan either enslaved or in hiding and planning to restore themselves to their former might; but never fully awaken, fully be destroyed, or fully unite, and the C'tan will never be completely enslaved to the Necrons or completely free.
* The [[Tyranids]] will always be a major galactic threat answerable only to the [[Hive Mind]] and will never ally with non-Tyranids, but will never win, be wiped out or wipe out or weaken a playable faction.
* The [[Squats|non-]][[Hrud|playable]] [[Slann|factions]] will always get a token mention, but never get time in the limelight or become powerful enough to challenge a major faction.

It was thought the [[Orks]] would always just wage wars for fun, but never unite to pose a threat to the galaxy, and given Ork nature, this actually makes sense. However, the [[Warhammer 40,000/Tactics/Orks(7E)|7th Edition]] Ork Codex advances [[Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka]]'s storyline, describing how he broke off from his wars with [[Helbrecht]] and [[Yarrick]] to bring all other Orks together in one, galaxy-spanning [[WAAAGH]]. So canonically, the Orks are actually getting their shit together, though this hypothetical WAAAGH of Thraka's will likely be stuck forever in the process of being formed.

==Other points==
There is also the matter that some of the [[Ciaphas Cain]] books take place in the early years of M42 (though his adventures are not exactly Imperium-shaking events). If those can be considered part of the fluff now, what's to stop it from going further than that?

It also bears mentioning that changes can be made to the storyline without altering the tabletop. [[Warhammer Fantasy]] kills off major characters (for example all the named characters currently available to the [[Vampire Counts]] army, half of the Orcs and Goblins characters and now ALL the [[Skaven]].) and they are still fieldable in the game. The plot of the setting progresses beyond that point and introduces new characters, encouraging players to not simply play "in the present" but instead just pick someplace in the timeline for their battle. Sure you run into inconsistencies when someone long dead is fighting the army of someone not even born when they were alive. But hey! Necromancy, gods intervening, and Chaos fuckery make a good explanation, as does the age-old rationalization of "shut up and just play the game". If one were to take that approach to 40k via advanced technology of some kind, Warp-related time distortions, or the aforementioned Chaos fuckery, then anyone can appear at any time if the players wish it despite them being killed off in canon. Plot can progress, everyone gets to keep their favorite canon from the past, everyone wins. In fact, this has already happened in canon- Captain Tycho has been dead since the Third War for Armageddon, as is Lord Solar Macharius, but that doesn't stop either of them from being playable. Hell, even [[Eldrad]] was dead for a while before the retcon hit. Don't forget about Aun'va. (Tycho is a bad example here because GW has obviously been trying to make it so no one plays him anyway because his rules are a steaming pile of shit that get worse every edition. So, yeah?)

TL;DR- While shaking up the setting some might leave some people rather grumpy, making significant changes has just as good of a chance of making things better instead of worse for the players, and if handled well those chances go up. Unfortunately, GW is really, really bad at it.

== Beyond the 41st Millennium ==
Of course, while Games Workshop may never enter the 42nd Millennium, that doesn't stop us from writing up fanfics that do so (or from bickering over which possible portrayal is more likely to actually occur).

* [[The ship moves]], a setting where, in the grim darkness of the 51st Millennium, the God-Emperor of Mankind orders the construction of a giant ark to leave the failing [[Imperium]] behind.
* [[Story:The Shape Of The Nightmare To Come 50k]], a plot that manages to become even ''MORE'' grimdark than it already was, with the Emprah croaking, the Imperium splintered into [[Khaine]]-knows-how-many pieces, and several other incredibly crappy things changing the universe even further.
* [[Return of the Primarchs]], where the fall of Cadia coincides with the fleets of the fallen/dead Primarchs from before the HH, the Lost Primarchs get found and they all band together to help the living ones get up and bring the Imperium to a more presentable state. What seems to be happening in 8th.
* [[End Times]], Emps dies and is [[Heresy|re-incarnated as a woman.]]
*Legion XI: [[Age of Sigmar]] is actually lost primarch Sigmar's madness in the warp. [[The Emperor]] finds him. Galaxy goes [[Heresy|Imperium-hating]] even more than now. [[Warhammer fantasy]] returns.

==Fundamental Misunderstandings==
The problem in 40k is basically the date. That's it. The fluff writers can really can just play grab ass going back and forth over and over for another ten thousand years with no real setting defining changes easily enough. After all they've already done that once - The whole timeline from the heresy to today has resulted in basically no major changes but has still felt interesting. The status quo doesn't need to change, but there really does need to be some space for new fluff going forward so it's not just being stuffed in around existing events. We already have canon conflicts, and it'll only get worse to the point where everyone in the fluff is established as being at one specific place in 999.M41 and that's it. No more new fluff. You can leave out the major events, just takes us some number of years forward so things are actually interesting again. Or, hell, go BACK. There's absolutely nothing wrong with filling in TEN THOUSAND YEARS of time over a galaxy of space to make an interesting story!

==Exploring 10,000 years of factions and history==
Interestingly GeeDubs has actually made fluff from periods other than the end of the 41st millenium, The [[Horus Heresy]] is perhaps the biggest example of how the long timeline of the Imperium can be further exploited for new settings, with the armies of the 31st millenium being factions of their own and quite different than the current space marine chapters and [[Adeptus Mechanicus]] forces, and while some of the novels of that period have been lacklusting we have got other which are rightly among the best productions of Black Library. Similarly [[Battlefleet Gothic]] was set during the 12th [[Black Crusade]] and allowed the fans to take a look to the naval forces of the different factions, with a recent videogame allowing a sort of resurrection and rumours about a possible resurrection of the tabletop game.

It can be pointed out that Gaunt's Ghosts were set centuries before the current time period, yet it has allowed for a very popular book series without actually requiring to interact with the 13th Crusade, showing an actual good use of the Galaxy.

The novel series The Beast Arises has been covering the [[War of The Beast]] and the Beheading, allowing for new possible scenarios and campaigns and exploring the fate of Sisters of Silence, the emergence of the [[Deathwatch]] and the Ordo Xenos as well as bringing a new array of characters and potential new units as well as revealing unsuspected secrets from well establisehd factions, [[skub|and while some people didn't take it well other have quite enjoyed]] the chance of checking back the 32nd millenium with hopes of seeing other events explored.

==Warhammer Fantasy==
Unlike Warhammer 40k, the plotline of [[Warhammer Fantasy]] d̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶d̶v̶a̶n̶c̶e(did advance), but in small increments (which adds up to something big). Each edition and army book usually adds a little more fluff to the past (and maybe a retcon or two), rarely an update to the big prophesied battle between good and evil that decides the settings future, and a plot hook in the present.
For example, the 8th edition [[Vampire Counts]] and [[High Elves]] army books ([[Codex]] for 40k players) added a new story to the end of the army timelines that mentions how [[Mannfred von Carstein]] kidnapped the [[Everqueen]]'s daughter Aliathra, and is going to sacrifice her like a Frazetta painting to bring back the settings big BIG bad [[Nagash]] and that the greatest hero of the High Elves, Tyrion, has saved her and is riding at the head of a large High Elf army about to clash with a large Undead army.

Smaller updates (mainly gimmicks to sell a book and some models) like [[Storm of Magic]] will add a whole new event that extends the "present day" by a few months to a year. The infamous [[Warhammer Online]] was entirely non-canon which may have been what doomed it from the start. Regardless, Fantasy isn't THAT adventurous about advancing its plotline, but advancing it ''some'' hasn't sunk the ship.

===[[The End Times]] and [[Age of Sigmar]]: The Ultimate Arguments against Advancing the Storyline===
In late 2014, GW finally decided to advance the storyline just as the players wished. The general consensus of this was that it was pretty cool. The fools...

The Nagash book introduced these major changes by bringing back [[Nagash]] as a superpower in his own right. Heroes were killed and Chaos was for once not the big title threat, except to the Empire, since Nagash was getting ready to kick them out and take the world for himself. Many non-playable human nations were decimated and Nagash led all the Vampire Counts to Nehekhara. After a series of lengthy battles he overthrew Settra, forced most of the Tomb Kings to serve him and effectively destroyed Nehekhara's cities so it ceased to exist as a nation.

The Glottkin book saw the Empire become leveled between the titular triplets, Festus, and the others, and little else happened except an undead cameo with Vlad laying the groundwork to become Vampire Emperor. It...didn't work though he made progress.

The Khaine book was the book where the outlook of the End Times started whipping around. All of a sudden, Teclis became a master manipulator bar none, [[Malekith]] was revealed to be the true king all along and everyone was just a usurper. Tyron became an utter asshole and turned into Khaine incarnate, only to die like a bitch to Malekith and Alith Anar. The end result meant that all the elves got slapped into a single army, which caused frustration among the separate bases.

Thanquol just made things even worse, as the rest of the Empire finally collapsed with [[Valten]]'s death, Lustria gets blasted by meteors, the surviving Lizardmen go "Thanks for all the fish" and fly off into space, the Skaven destroy everyone who isn't the Empire or Bretonnia offscreen (and Bretonnia is also destroyed offscreen as well), and more Dwarfs get chopped. Also Gobbla got eaten, cue Goblin tears. We close with Skaven allying with the forces of Chaos.

Now Archaon was where shit broke. To make a long story short, Chaos wins and everyone dies, and there wasn't a damned thing anyone could do to stop it. And that they had been doing this to every universe that had preceded the then-current one, so they would just keep winning over and over again no matter what anyone did about it. By the end of the book, the entire Warhammer World had ceased to exist and every army and named character was killed off if they weren't already dead. In short, it was what GW wanted Storm of Chaos to be, but without that irritating "player interaction" messing up the plot they had planned out.

In a sense, one could see this as a monkey's paw wish; the fanbase finally got the Fantasy setting to advance, but it led to said setting being destroyed and replaced by a completely different setting. One could fearfully wonder now just what would happen if the End Times treatment happened to 40K, and the general consensus is "even the complete stagnation we have now is better than their insane ideas of progression." But if Games Workshop does the same to 40k, it likely means they're going out of business, because that setting has, among other things, their [[Space Marines|creator's pets]]. (And as it turns out, several of their new books seem to be showing disturbing parallels to The End Times...so make of that what you will.)

Age of Sigmar added another monkey wrench into the works; while the plot is nominally progressing with the promise of further developments in the future, it's not necessarily going to be a good thing given GW's track record thus far, and beyond a few shared characters who lack most of their original defining characteristics, most of the "new" Warhammer setting is barely recognizable as being connected to the old one at all. Two long-time factions, Bretonnia and the Tomb Kings, [[FAIL|were squatted without even an explanation]]. In short, advancing the storyline only works when the people writing it aren't absolutely clueless on how to do so, and GW has shown absolutely no signs of being remotely competent enough to pull it off. Unfortunately, recent events in 40k suggest Geedubs has learned nothing from the experience and is on the verge of doing the same thing again.

While the game has certainly improved since its release, especially in the gameplay sector, as an actual narrative setting it still leaves a lot to be desired (one of the most glaring examples is us not knowing how half the realms look like, how they function or even how realms function in general). This (coupled with the destruction of a setting that was well liked narratively, if not competitively) means Age of Sigmar can still be seen as an against to advancing the storyline (though what the New Games Workshop(tm)has so far shown us regarding 40k is [[Skub|promising]]).

==Yep, They're Doing It==
2017 barely had time to start before GeeDubs released ''Fall of Cadia''. With this, the clock has finally struck midnight and the year 41,000 officially begins. And this being 40k, instead of just dropping the Times Square Ball in a shower of fireworks and cheering, they drop the entire planet in a shower of shredded limbs and howling of the dead. [[Creed]] loses his arm AND [[Colour Sergeant Jarran Kell|Jarran Kell]], [[Abbadon]] loses his spleen, [[Trazyn]] shows up and gives the Imperium instructions on how to supercharged the pylons to the point they close the [[Eye of Terror]] for a moment, and <s>the Chaos gods call a bullshit DM fiat and blow up the planet AFTER the Necron anti-warp pylons have been turned up to maximum</s> Abaddon sacrifices his [[Blackstone Fortress]] and rams the planet in a failed gambit to finally [[Awesome|kill Creed]], blowing up the [[Cadian Pylons|pylons]] and giving the Cadian 8th the best fucking last stand ever as the Eye opens up and spews forth all of the [[Chaos]] all over [[Cadia]]. Creed barely survives, and is taken by Trazyn as a souvenir before he can bleed out because this is Trazyn we're talking about here.

[[Eldrad]] got himself put on trial for being a dick even by [[Eldar]] standards, but was vindicated when it turned out he really did manage to awaken [[Ynnead]] early. Ynnead's fledgeling faction of followers has since rallied members of all three major Eldar factions to itself, with the goal of bringing Ynnead to its full strength. Following the near-destruction of Biel-Tan by Chaos, they resolved to seek an alliance with the Imperium against their common enemy- no tricks or deception this time, just an agreement to not kill each other while the Dark Gods are on their doorsteps.

And to cap it all off, [[Roboute Guilliman]] was [[Matt Ward|brought back to life]] with the help of said Eldar and became Lord Commander of the Imperium once again. Predictably, he was rather upset with how far the Imperium had fallen since he was last conscious.

[[Warhammer 40,000 8th edition]] has been putting all of the above into overdrive; when the giant Warp storm dividing the Imperium in half is one of the '''smaller''' changes seen thus far, you know things are going to be shaken up. Hard. As of April 2018, the setting has continued to move forward since the release of the new edition, but thankfully the setting does not appear to be on the same path as The End Times. Not yet, at least.

==See Also==
*[[Your dudes]]

[[Category:Warhammer 40,000]]
[[Category: Warhammer Fantasy]]

Advancing the Storyline

2018-05-23T23:29:27Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

'''Advancing the Storyline''' is what a great number of [[neckbeards]] believe that [[Games Workshop]] <s>needs</s> needed to do with [[Warhammer 40,000]]. On [[/tg/]], [[Warseer]], [[Bolter and Chainsword]], and [[Dakka Dakka]], people complain and grumble about how <s>the storyline never moves beyond the year 999.M41, with [[Abaddon the Despoiler]]'s 13th [[Black Crusade]] on the very brink of taking [[Cadia]], ''for real this time''</s> (except he actually did in The Gathering Storm and the setting has now reached 000.M42. Does this mean they have to change the name to Warhammer 41,000?), the [[Tyranid]] [[Hive Fleet]]s closing in on [[Terra]], the [[Astronomican]] flickering and fading, and the [[Golden Throne]] being one [[Adeptus Custodes]]' sneeze away from shutting down permanently.

Recently, GW seems to have been inching the plot forwards in parts around the Imperium, with expanded information on the 13th Black Crusade, Daemon Primarchs coming about, and [[Adeptus Custodes|Super-Super-Soldiers]] being forced into the fray, GW is upsetting the status quo that's been stagnating for the last ten millennia and past four editions (give or take), laying the groundwork for moving things forward. And with rumblings about 40K 8thEd., it seems 40K is moving towards its own version of [[The End Times]]. For reasons listed below and in the End Times article, this is all but guaranteed to be the largest mass of [[skub]] /tg/ has ever seen.

'''[[Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition|It Happened.]]'''

==Why they're wrong==
Some people — [[Aaron Dembski-Bowden|Daddy Issues Dembski]] being one of its most frequent proponents — hold the view that this attitude is a load of shit, and that it completely misunderstands the nature of the 40k setting.

This is because 40k isn't a story, and in fact, doesn't have a "storyline"; while events from it, such as the [[Black Crusade]]s and the [[Badab War]], have had their stories told, there's no single, overarching story that the setting exists to tell (unlike universes such as those of [[Star Wars]] or [[Doctor Who]]; even though other stories exist in those settings, they're anchored in a central, unifying one). 40k is simply a setting in which stories take place, and has ten thousand years and a whole galaxy in which to set them, so expecting the timeline to "advance" to "continue" or "finish" the "story" is a stupid idea.

The other, more practical issue with advancing the storyline is that a major change to it is likely to have severe reprecussions on one or more of the different factions, which may not always be welcome changes. To use the most obvious example, consider what effect story progression would have on the Imperium of Man. The majority of 40k players favor one of the many Imperium-aligned factions. Assuming that the [[God-Emperor of Mankind|God-Emperor]] doesn't get resurrected and the Golden Throne isn't fixed before it fails (which itself is rather unlikely and has a good chance of causing problems of its own), the sheer number of threats that the [[Imperium]] faces on a constant basis will tear it apart as soon as the Emperor snuffs it, leading to the enslavement and/or destruction of humanity. And no Imperium means that about half of the armies currently in the game will no longer exist, leaving numerous [[fa/tg/uys]] stuck with unusable armies and a serious grudge over being given the [[Squat]] treatment. Needless to say, Games Workshop's profits would be hit incredibly hard by the departure of so many paying customers, so they have no choice but to keep the Imperium afloat. Although this has the infuriating side effect of causing the setting to grow stagnant and unchanging (much like the Imperium itself), GW can't afford to appease one group of complaining neckbeards over another which would complain even more loudly if their armies were suddenly made unusable.

At the same time, it would be equally risky for GW to risk upsetting the status quo for any other race. For example, if the [[Tyranids]] started arriving in full force, the [[Tau]] would cease to exist as well because they'd be the first to get nommed; naturally, this would infuriate Tau players. The [[Eldar]] dying out completely and forming [[Ynnead]] would meet with an equally chilly reception from both Eldar and [[Slaanesh]] players. Similarly, unified [[Necrons]] would be such a juggernaut that they'd be able to wipe out all other factions effortlessly, which is also something GW wants to avoid. If the removal of the Squats (which were always a rather small army with only a handful of players) was enough to produce a major outcry, then the [[rage]] produced by the removal of a major faction will be truly unimaginable.

Basically, in order to keep everyone happy, any advancement of the status quo in 40k would have to result in all the factions still being more or less equally matched. That is, the same essential status quo would have to be maintained, making the plot advancement meaningless. Meaningfully advancing the story would logically spell death for a playable faction, and GeeDubs has no financial incentive to kill off a playable faction. Would you want to play a [[Imperium of Man|faction that gets canonically boned no matter how well you play?]] No, no you would not, <s>and GeeDubs won't ever do that to you.</s> WRONG, see the End Times below.

[[File:WOW,jpg|1200px|thumb|center|In the 8th game of the World of Warcraft series, which was the first since the current 8th editions of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K, they also advanced the storyline following the same trend, as we have an official Alliance-Horde war for the first time since Warcraft 3, in total coordination with the real world when long unsettled conflicts, such as the Arab-Israeli war, Grexit, Kim Jong-un, US-China trade war, Fascism emergerging in Europe starting from Italy, Neo-ottomanism, American civil war, Monroe dogma over Nicolas Maduro and Lula and even a volcano in Hawaii erupting, are simultaneously all emerging as if we are living in a piece of literature of some godlike author.]]

==Why they're right==
On the other hand, [[Privateer Press]] has managed to pull off a metaplot in a wargame just fine with [[WARMACHINE]] and [[Hordes]], and there's no reason that it should be any different for 40k. Besides, given the fact that GW is already expanding the scope of the game to include the previously untouchable events of the [[Horus Heresy]], it's perfectly possible for them (and probably quite profitable since it would give them an excuse to make a new line of minis) to start encompassing events further into the future as well as into the past of the setting. (Some can say that they're already doing so now with the increased emphasis on the "[[Time of Ending]]" in the current codices.)

On top of that, it can be argued that the central story of 40k is the story of the Imperium's fall from glory and slow decline, which must by definition end with either the Emperor getting revived or the destruction of the Imperium of Man, and failing to resolve this central storyline is slowly causing the whole story to stagnate as it runs out of events and gaps to fill in. Even the evolving stories that [[your dudes]] were once capable of creating can no longer exist because there is simply nothing left to evolve. Remember how the [[Eye of Terror]] Campaign ended in a victory for Chaos? Instead of allowing its results to change the background (via [[Abbadon]] taking [[Cadia]]), GW instead decided to backpedal in a way that ultimately made the events of the campaign utterly meaningless. How can you have an emergent narrative take place when any sign that it might upset the way things are now results in it being retconned or otherwise made insignificant?

Another major problem caused by the setting's stagnation is the presence of numerous plotholes which form as a byproduct of GW's insistence in squeezing the shit out of 999.M41. A good example of this is the [[Knights of Blood]] defending [[Baal]] AND attacking the [[Farsight]] Enclaves in the same year despite the fact that they are on opposite sides of the galaxy. The only way to fix that would be to retcon the date, which would create problems of its own depending on where they inserted the new date, or to use warp fuckery since warp travel occasionally has you appear at your destination some time before you left, and because there's always a helpful retcon lying around.

The biggest problem is that Games Workshop loves their status quo. They'll advance the story in bits and pieces but never anything that changes the status quo. In 40K, in Games Workshop's vision:

* The [[Imperium]] will always be stagnant and rotting, but they'll never be destroyed <s>or fractured</s> Dark Imperium (helps that they're a Creator's Pet and, due to all the updates and attention from GW, the bestselling faction(or the other way around; it's hard to say at this point)).
* The [[Eldar]] will always be full of arrogant people, dying and trying to rebuild their empire, but never progress, succeed or go extinct.
* The [[Tau]] will always be a new, expanding empire with hints of [[grimdark]] beneath their benevolent façade, but never get too grimdark or expand to the point where they threaten the Imperium.
* The [[Chaos Space Marines]] will always be trying to overthrow the Imperium, have a grudge against it and be under Abbadon's leadership, but never succeed in a way that puts the Imperium in jeopardy or puts someone besides Abbadon in charge.
* The [[Chaos Daemons]] will always be corrupting things and fighting, but never win a lasting victory or suffer a permanent setback.
* The [[Necrons]] will always be an ancient empire slowly reawakening with each faction following the dictates of their Overlord, with the C'tan either enslaved or in hiding and planning to restore themselves to their former might; but never fully awaken, fully be destroyed, or fully unite, and the C'tan will never be completely enslaved to the Necrons or completely free.
* The [[Tyranids]] will always be a major galactic threat answerable only to the [[Hive Mind]] and will never ally with non-Tyranids, but will never win, be wiped out or wipe out or weaken a playable faction.
* The [[Squats|non-]][[Hrud|playable]] [[Slann|factions]] will always get a token mention, but never get time in the limelight or become powerful enough to challenge a major faction.

It was thought the [[Orks]] would always just wage wars for fun, but never unite to pose a threat to the galaxy, and given Ork nature, this actually makes sense. However, the [[Warhammer 40,000/Tactics/Orks(7E)|7th Edition]] Ork Codex advances [[Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka]]'s storyline, describing how he broke off from his wars with [[Helbrecht]] and [[Yarrick]] to bring all other Orks together in one, galaxy-spanning [[WAAAGH]]. So canonically, the Orks are actually getting their shit together, though this hypothetical WAAAGH of Thraka's will likely be stuck forever in the process of being formed.

==Other points==
There is also the matter that some of the [[Ciaphas Cain]] books take place in the early years of M42 (though his adventures are not exactly Imperium-shaking events). If those can be considered part of the fluff now, what's to stop it from going further than that?

It also bears mentioning that changes can be made to the storyline without altering the tabletop. [[Warhammer Fantasy]] kills off major characters (for example all the named characters currently available to the [[Vampire Counts]] army, half of the Orcs and Goblins characters and now ALL the [[Skaven]].) and they are still fieldable in the game. The plot of the setting progresses beyond that point and introduces new characters, encouraging players to not simply play "in the present" but instead just pick someplace in the timeline for their battle. Sure you run into inconsistencies when someone long dead is fighting the army of someone not even born when they were alive. But hey! Necromancy, gods intervening, and Chaos fuckery make a good explanation, as does the age-old rationalization of "shut up and just play the game". If one were to take that approach to 40k via advanced technology of some kind, Warp-related time distortions, or the aforementioned Chaos fuckery, then anyone can appear at any time if the players wish it despite them being killed off in canon. Plot can progress, everyone gets to keep their favorite canon from the past, everyone wins. In fact, this has already happened in canon- Captain Tycho has been dead since the Third War for Armageddon, as is Lord Solar Macharius, but that doesn't stop either of them from being playable. Hell, even [[Eldrad]] was dead for a while before the retcon hit. Don't forget about Aun'va. (Tycho is a bad example here because GW has obviously been trying to make it so no one plays him anyway because his rules are a steaming pile of shit that get worse every edition. So, yeah?)

TL;DR- While shaking up the setting some might leave some people rather grumpy, making significant changes has just as good of a chance of making things better instead of worse for the players, and if handled well those chances go up. Unfortunately, GW is really, really bad at it.

== Beyond the 41st Millennium ==
Of course, while Games Workshop may never enter the 42nd Millennium, that doesn't stop us from writing up fanfics that do so (or from bickering over which possible portrayal is more likely to actually occur).

* [[The ship moves]], a setting where, in the grim darkness of the 51st Millennium, the God-Emperor of Mankind orders the construction of a giant ark to leave the failing [[Imperium]] behind.
* [[Story:The Shape Of The Nightmare To Come 50k]], a plot that manages to become even ''MORE'' grimdark than it already was, with the Emprah croaking, the Imperium splintered into [[Khaine]]-knows-how-many pieces, and several other incredibly crappy things changing the universe even further.
* [[Return of the Primarchs]], where the fall of Cadia coincides with the fleets of the fallen/dead Primarchs from before the HH, the Lost Primarchs get found and they all band together to help the living ones get up and bring the Imperium to a more presentable state. What seems to be happening in 8th.
* [[End Times]], Emps dies and is [[Heresy|re-incarnated as a woman.]]
*Legion XI: [[Age of Sigmar]] is actually lost primarch Sigmar's madness in the warp. [[The Emperor]] finds him. Galaxy goes [[Heresy|Imperium-hating]] even more than now. [[Warhammer fantasy]] returns.

==Fundamental Misunderstandings==
The problem in 40k is basically the date. That's it. The fluff writers can really can just play grab ass going back and forth over and over for another ten thousand years with no real setting defining changes easily enough. After all they've already done that once - The whole timeline from the heresy to today has resulted in basically no major changes but has still felt interesting. The status quo doesn't need to change, but there really does need to be some space for new fluff going forward so it's not just being stuffed in around existing events. We already have canon conflicts, and it'll only get worse to the point where everyone in the fluff is established as being at one specific place in 999.M41 and that's it. No more new fluff. You can leave out the major events, just takes us some number of years forward so things are actually interesting again. Or, hell, go BACK. There's absolutely nothing wrong with filling in TEN THOUSAND YEARS of time over a galaxy of space to make an interesting story!

==Exploring 10,000 years of factions and history==
Interestingly GeeDubs has actually made fluff from periods other than the end of the 41st millenium, The [[Horus Heresy]] is perhaps the biggest example of how the long timeline of the Imperium can be further exploited for new settings, with the armies of the 31st millenium being factions of their own and quite different than the current space marine chapters and [[Adeptus Mechanicus]] forces, and while some of the novels of that period have been lacklusting we have got other which are rightly among the best productions of Black Library. Similarly [[Battlefleet Gothic]] was set during the 12th [[Black Crusade]] and allowed the fans to take a look to the naval forces of the different factions, with a recent videogame allowing a sort of resurrection and rumours about a possible resurrection of the tabletop game.

It can be pointed out that Gaunt's Ghosts were set centuries before the current time period, yet it has allowed for a very popular book series without actually requiring to interact with the 13th Crusade, showing an actual good use of the Galaxy.

The novel series The Beast Arises has been covering the [[War of The Beast]] and the Beheading, allowing for new possible scenarios and campaigns and exploring the fate of Sisters of Silence, the emergence of the [[Deathwatch]] and the Ordo Xenos as well as bringing a new array of characters and potential new units as well as revealing unsuspected secrets from well establisehd factions, [[skub|and while some people didn't take it well other have quite enjoyed]] the chance of checking back the 32nd millenium with hopes of seeing other events explored.

==Warhammer Fantasy==
Unlike Warhammer 40k, the plotline of [[Warhammer Fantasy]] d̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶d̶v̶a̶n̶c̶e(did advance), but in small increments (which adds up to something big). Each edition and army book usually adds a little more fluff to the past (and maybe a retcon or two), rarely an update to the big prophesied battle between good and evil that decides the settings future, and a plot hook in the present.
For example, the 8th edition [[Vampire Counts]] and [[High Elves]] army books ([[Codex]] for 40k players) added a new story to the end of the army timelines that mentions how [[Mannfred von Carstein]] kidnapped the [[Everqueen]]'s daughter Aliathra, and is going to sacrifice her like a Frazetta painting to bring back the settings big BIG bad [[Nagash]] and that the greatest hero of the High Elves, Tyrion, has saved her and is riding at the head of a large High Elf army about to clash with a large Undead army.

Smaller updates (mainly gimmicks to sell a book and some models) like [[Storm of Magic]] will add a whole new event that extends the "present day" by a few months to a year. The infamous [[Warhammer Online]] was entirely non-canon which may have been what doomed it from the start. Regardless, Fantasy isn't THAT adventurous about advancing its plotline, but advancing it ''some'' hasn't sunk the ship.

===[[The End Times]] and [[Age of Sigmar]]: The Ultimate Arguments against Advancing the Storyline===
In late 2014, GW finally decided to advance the storyline just as the players wished. The general consensus of this was that it was pretty cool. The fools...

The Nagash book introduced these major changes by bringing back [[Nagash]] as a superpower in his own right. Heroes were killed and Chaos was for once not the big title threat, except to the Empire, since Nagash was getting ready to kick them out and take the world for himself. Many non-playable human nations were decimated and Nagash led all the Vampire Counts to Nehekhara. After a series of lengthy battles he overthrew Settra, forced most of the Tomb Kings to serve him and effectively destroyed Nehekhara's cities so it ceased to exist as a nation.

The Glottkin book saw the Empire become leveled between the titular triplets, Festus, and the others, and little else happened except an undead cameo with Vlad laying the groundwork to become Vampire Emperor. It...didn't work though he made progress.

The Khaine book was the book where the outlook of the End Times started whipping around. All of a sudden, Teclis became a master manipulator bar none, [[Malekith]] was revealed to be the true king all along and everyone was just a usurper. Tyron became an utter asshole and turned into Khaine incarnate, only to die like a bitch to Malekith and Alith Anar. The end result meant that all the elves got slapped into a single army, which caused frustration among the separate bases.

Thanquol just made things even worse, as the rest of the Empire finally collapsed with [[Valten]]'s death, Lustria gets blasted by meteors, the surviving Lizardmen go "Thanks for all the fish" and fly off into space, the Skaven destroy everyone who isn't the Empire or Bretonnia offscreen (and Bretonnia is also destroyed offscreen as well), and more Dwarfs get chopped. Also Gobbla got eaten, cue Goblin tears. We close with Skaven allying with the forces of Chaos.

Now Archaon was where shit broke. To make a long story short, Chaos wins and everyone dies, and there wasn't a damned thing anyone could do to stop it. And that they had been doing this to every universe that had preceded the then-current one, so they would just keep winning over and over again no matter what anyone did about it. By the end of the book, the entire Warhammer World had ceased to exist and every army and named character was killed off if they weren't already dead. In short, it was what GW wanted Storm of Chaos to be, but without that irritating "player interaction" messing up the plot they had planned out.

In a sense, one could see this as a monkey's paw wish; the fanbase finally got the Fantasy setting to advance, but it led to said setting being destroyed and replaced by a completely different setting. One could fearfully wonder now just what would happen if the End Times treatment happened to 40K, and the general consensus is "even the complete stagnation we have now is better than their insane ideas of progression." But if Games Workshop does the same to 40k, it likely means they're going out of business, because that setting has, among other things, their [[Space Marines|creator's pets]]. (And as it turns out, several of their new books seem to be showing disturbing parallels to The End Times...so make of that what you will.)

Age of Sigmar added another monkey wrench into the works; while the plot is nominally progressing with the promise of further developments in the future, it's not necessarily going to be a good thing given GW's track record thus far, and beyond a few shared characters who lack most of their original defining characteristics, most of the "new" Warhammer setting is barely recognizable as being connected to the old one at all. Two long-time factions, Bretonnia and the Tomb Kings, [[FAIL|were squatted without even an explanation]]. In short, advancing the storyline only works when the people writing it aren't absolutely clueless on how to do so, and GW has shown absolutely no signs of being remotely competent enough to pull it off. Unfortunately, recent events in 40k suggest Geedubs has learned nothing from the experience and is on the verge of doing the same thing again.

While the game has certainly improved since its release, especially in the gameplay sector, as an actual narrative setting it still leaves a lot to be desired (one of the most glaring examples is us not knowing how half the realms look like, how they function or even how realms function in general). This (coupled with the destruction of a setting that was well liked narratively, if not competitively) means Age of Sigmar can still be seen as an against to advancing the storyline (though what the New Games Workshop(tm)has so far shown us regarding 40k is [[Skub|promising]]).

==Yep, They're Doing It==
2017 barely had time to start before GeeDubs released ''Fall of Cadia''. With this, the clock has finally struck midnight and the year 41,000 officially begins. And this being 40k, instead of just dropping the Times Square Ball in a shower of fireworks and cheering, they drop the entire planet in a shower of shredded limbs and howling of the dead. [[Creed]] loses his arm AND [[Colour Sergeant Jarran Kell|Jarran Kell]], [[Abbadon]] loses his spleen, [[Trazyn]] shows up and gives the Imperium instructions on how to supercharged the pylons to the point they close the [[Eye of Terror]] for a moment, and <s>the Chaos gods call a bullshit DM fiat and blow up the planet AFTER the Necron anti-warp pylons have been turned up to maximum</s> Abaddon sacrifices his [[Blackstone Fortress]] and rams the planet in a failed gambit to finally [[Awesome|kill Creed]], blowing up the [[Cadian Pylons|pylons]] and giving the Cadian 8th the best fucking last stand ever as the Eye opens up and spews forth all of the [[Chaos]] all over [[Cadia]]. Creed barely survives, and is taken by Trazyn as a souvenir before he can bleed out because this is Trazyn we're talking about here.

[[Eldrad]] got himself put on trial for being a dick even by [[Eldar]] standards, but was vindicated when it turned out he really did manage to awaken [[Ynnead]] early. Ynnead's fledgeling faction of followers has since rallied members of all three major Eldar factions to itself, with the goal of bringing Ynnead to its full strength. Following the near-destruction of Biel-Tan by Chaos, they resolved to seek an alliance with the Imperium against their common enemy- no tricks or deception this time, just an agreement to not kill each other while the Dark Gods are on their doorsteps.

And to cap it all off, [[Roboute Guilliman]] was [[Matt Ward|brought back to life]] with the help of said Eldar and became Lord Commander of the Imperium once again. Predictably, he was rather upset with how far the Imperium had fallen since he was last conscious.

[[Warhammer 40,000 8th edition]] has been putting all of the above into overdrive; when the giant Warp storm dividing the Imperium in half is one of the '''smaller''' changes seen thus far, you know things are going to be shaken up. Hard. As of April 2018, the setting has continued to move forward since the release of the new edition, but thankfully the setting does not appear to be on the same path as The End Times. Not yet, at least.

==See Also==
*[[Your dudes]]

[[Category:Warhammer 40,000]]
[[Category: Warhammer Fantasy]]

Advancing the Storyline

2018-05-23T23:22:25Z

2A02:587:3A03:4900:111D:139C:C244:9E0B:

'''Advancing the Storyline''' is what a great number of [[neckbeards]] believe that [[Games Workshop]] <s>needs</s> needed to do with [[Warhammer 40,000]]. On [[/tg/]], [[Warseer]], [[Bolter and Chainsword]], and [[Dakka Dakka]], people complain and grumble about how <s>the storyline never moves beyond the year 999.M41, with [[Abaddon the Despoiler]]'s 13th [[Black Crusade]] on the very brink of taking [[Cadia]], ''for real this time''</s> (except he actually did in The Gathering Storm and the setting has now reached 000.M42. Does this mean they have to change the name to Warhammer 41,000?), the [[Tyranid]] [[Hive Fleet]]s closing in on [[Terra]], the [[Astronomican]] flickering and fading, and the [[Golden Throne]] being one [[Adeptus Custodes]]' sneeze away from shutting down permanently.

Recently, GW seems to have been inching the plot forwards in parts around the Imperium, with expanded information on the 13th Black Crusade, Daemon Primarchs coming about, and [[Adeptus Custodes|Super-Super-Soldiers]] being forced into the fray, GW is upsetting the status quo that's been stagnating for the last ten millennia and past four editions (give or take), laying the groundwork for moving things forward. And with rumblings about 40K 8thEd., it seems 40K is moving towards its own version of [[The End Times]]. For reasons listed below and in the End Times article, this is all but guaranteed to be the largest mass of [[skub]] /tg/ has ever seen.

'''[[Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition|It Happened.]]'''

==Why they're wrong==
Some people — [[Aaron Dembski-Bowden|Daddy Issues Dembski]] being one of its most frequent proponents — hold the view that this attitude is a load of shit, and that it completely misunderstands the nature of the 40k setting.

This is because 40k isn't a story, and in fact, doesn't have a "storyline"; while events from it, such as the [[Black Crusade]]s and the [[Badab War]], have had their stories told, there's no single, overarching story that the setting exists to tell (unlike universes such as those of [[Star Wars]] or [[Doctor Who]]; even though other stories exist in those settings, they're anchored in a central, unifying one). 40k is simply a setting in which stories take place, and has ten thousand years and a whole galaxy in which to set them, so expecting the timeline to "advance" to "continue" or "finish" the "story" is a stupid idea.

The other, more practical issue with advancing the storyline is that a major change to it is likely to have severe reprecussions on one or more of the different factions, which may not always be welcome changes. To use the most obvious example, consider what effect story progression would have on the Imperium of Man. The majority of 40k players favor one of the many Imperium-aligned factions. Assuming that the [[God-Emperor of Mankind|God-Emperor]] doesn't get resurrected and the Golden Throne isn't fixed before it fails (which itself is rather unlikely and has a good chance of causing problems of its own), the sheer number of threats that the [[Imperium]] faces on a constant basis will tear it apart as soon as the Emperor snuffs it, leading to the enslavement and/or destruction of humanity. And no Imperium means that about half of the armies currently in the game will no longer exist, leaving numerous [[fa/tg/uys]] stuck with unusable armies and a serious grudge over being given the [[Squat]] treatment. Needless to say, Games Workshop's profits would be hit incredibly hard by the departure of so many paying customers, so they have no choice but to keep the Imperium afloat. Although this has the infuriating side effect of causing the setting to grow stagnant and unchanging (much like the Imperium itself), GW can't afford to appease one group of complaining neckbeards over another which would complain even more loudly if their armies were suddenly made unusable.

At the same time, it would be equally risky for GW to risk upsetting the status quo for any other race. For example, if the [[Tyranids]] started arriving in full force, the [[Tau]] would cease to exist as well because they'd be the first to get nommed; naturally, this would infuriate Tau players. The [[Eldar]] dying out completely and forming [[Ynnead]] would meet with an equally chilly reception from both Eldar and [[Slaanesh]] players. Similarly, unified [[Necrons]] would be such a juggernaut that they'd be able to wipe out all other factions effortlessly, which is also something GW wants to avoid. If the removal of the Squats (which were always a rather small army with only a handful of players) was enough to produce a major outcry, then the [[rage]] produced by the removal of a major faction will be truly unimaginable.

Basically, in order to keep everyone happy, any advancement of the status quo in 40k would have to result in all the factions still being more or less equally matched. That is, the same essential status quo would have to be maintained, making the plot advancement meaningless. Meaningfully advancing the story would logically spell death for a playable faction, and GeeDubs has no financial incentive to kill off a playable faction. Would you want to play a [[Imperium of Man|faction that gets canonically boned no matter how well you play?]] No, no you would not, <s>and GeeDubs won't ever do that to you.</s> WRONG, see the End Times below.

[[File:Azeroth.png|1200px|thumb|center|In the 8th game of the World of Warcraft series, which was the first since the current 8th editions of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K, they also advanced the storyline following the same trend, as we have an official Alliance-Horde war for the first time since Warcraft 3, in total coordination with the real world when long unsettled conflicts, such as the Arab-Israeli war, Grexit, Kim Jong-un, US-China trade war, Fascism emergerging in Europe starting from Italy, Neo-ottomanism, American civil war, Monroe dogma over Nicolas Maduro and Lula and even a volcano in Hawaii erupting, are simultaneously all emerging as if we are living in a piece of literature of some godlike author.]]

==Why they're right==
On the other hand, [[Privateer Press]] has managed to pull off a metaplot in a wargame just fine with [[WARMACHINE]] and [[Hordes]], and there's no reason that it should be any different for 40k. Besides, given the fact that GW is already expanding the scope of the game to include the previously untouchable events of the [[Horus Heresy]], it's perfectly possible for them (and probably quite profitable since it would give them an excuse to make a new line of minis) to start encompassing events further into the future as well as into the past of the setting. (Some can say that they're already doing so now with the increased emphasis on the "[[Time of Ending]]" in the current codices.)

On top of that, it can be argued that the central story of 40k is the story of the Imperium's fall from glory and slow decline, which must by definition end with either the Emperor getting revived or the destruction of the Imperium of Man, and failing to resolve this central storyline is slowly causing the whole story to stagnate as it runs out of events and gaps to fill in. Even the evolving stories that [[your dudes]] were once capable of creating can no longer exist because there is simply nothing left to evolve. Remember how the [[Eye of Terror]] Campaign ended in a victory for Chaos? Instead of allowing its results to change the background (via [[Abbadon]] taking [[Cadia]]), GW instead decided to backpedal in a way that ultimately made the events of the campaign utterly meaningless. How can you have an emergent narrative take place when any sign that it might upset the way things are now results in it being retconned or otherwise made insignificant?

Another major problem caused by the setting's stagnation is the presence of numerous plotholes which form as a byproduct of GW's insistence in squeezing the shit out of 999.M41. A good example of this is the [[Knights of Blood]] defending [[Baal]] AND attacking the [[Farsight]] Enclaves in the same year despite the fact that they are on opposite sides of the galaxy. The only way to fix that would be to retcon the date, which would create problems of its own depending on where they inserted the new date, or to use warp fuckery since warp travel occasionally has you appear at your destination some time before you left, and because there's always a helpful retcon lying around.

The biggest problem is that Games Workshop loves their status quo. They'll advance the story in bits and pieces but never anything that changes the status quo. In 40K, in Games Workshop's vision:

* The [[Imperium]] will always be stagnant and rotting, but they'll never be destroyed <s>or fractured</s> Dark Imperium (helps that they're a Creator's Pet and, due to all the updates and attention from GW, the bestselling faction(or the other way around; it's hard to say at this point)).
* The [[Eldar]] will always be full of arrogant people, dying and trying to rebuild their empire, but never progress, succeed or go extinct.
* The [[Tau]] will always be a new, expanding empire with hints of [[grimdark]] beneath their benevolent façade, but never get too grimdark or expand to the point where they threaten the Imperium.
* The [[Chaos Space Marines]] will always be trying to overthrow the Imperium, have a grudge against it and be under Abbadon's leadership, but never succeed in a way that puts the Imperium in jeopardy or puts someone besides Abbadon in charge.
* The [[Chaos Daemons]] will always be corrupting things and fighting, but never win a lasting victory or suffer a permanent setback.
* The [[Necrons]] will always be an ancient empire slowly reawakening with each faction following the dictates of their Overlord, with the C'tan either enslaved or in hiding and planning to restore themselves to their former might; but never fully awaken, fully be destroyed, or fully unite, and the C'tan will never be completely enslaved to the Necrons or completely free.
* The [[Tyranids]] will always be a major galactic threat answerable only to the [[Hive Mind]] and will never ally with non-Tyranids, but will never win, be wiped out or wipe out or weaken a playable faction.
* The [[Squats|non-]][[Hrud|playable]] [[Slann|factions]] will always get a token mention, but never get time in the limelight or become powerful enough to challenge a major faction.

It was thought the [[Orks]] would always just wage wars for fun, but never unite to pose a threat to the galaxy, and given Ork nature, this actually makes sense. However, the [[Warhammer 40,000/Tactics/Orks(7E)|7th Edition]] Ork Codex advances [[Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka]]'s storyline, describing how he broke off from his wars with [[Helbrecht]] and [[Yarrick]] to bring all other Orks together in one, galaxy-spanning [[WAAAGH]]. So canonically, the Orks are actually getting their shit together, though this hypothetical WAAAGH of Thraka's will likely be stuck forever in the process of being formed.

==Other points==
There is also the matter that some of the [[Ciaphas Cain]] books take place in the early years of M42 (though his adventures are not exactly Imperium-shaking events). If those can be considered part of the fluff now, what's to stop it from going further than that?

It also bears mentioning that changes can be made to the storyline without altering the tabletop. [[Warhammer Fantasy]] kills off major characters (for example all the named characters currently available to the [[Vampire Counts]] army, half of the Orcs and Goblins characters and now ALL the [[Skaven]].) and they are still fieldable in the game. The plot of the setting progresses beyond that point and introduces new characters, encouraging players to not simply play "in the present" but instead just pick someplace in the timeline for their battle. Sure you run into inconsistencies when someone long dead is fighting the army of someone not even born when they were alive. But hey! Necromancy, gods intervening, and Chaos fuckery make a good explanation, as does the age-old rationalization of "shut up and just play the game". If one were to take that approach to 40k via advanced technology of some kind, Warp-related time distortions, or the aforementioned Chaos fuckery, then anyone can appear at any time if the players wish it despite them being killed off in canon. Plot can progress, everyone gets to keep their favorite canon from the past, everyone wins. In fact, this has already happened in canon- Captain Tycho has been dead since the Third War for Armageddon, as is Lord Solar Macharius, but that doesn't stop either of them from being playable. Hell, even [[Eldrad]] was dead for a while before the retcon hit. Don't forget about Aun'va. (Tycho is a bad example here because GW has obviously been trying to make it so no one plays him anyway because his rules are a steaming pile of shit that get worse every edition. So, yeah?)

TL;DR- While shaking up the setting some might leave some people rather grumpy, making significant changes has just as good of a chance of making things better instead of worse for the players, and if handled well those chances go up. Unfortunately, GW is really, really bad at it.

== Beyond the 41st Millennium ==
Of course, while Games Workshop may never enter the 42nd Millennium, that doesn't stop us from writing up fanfics that do so (or from bickering over which possible portrayal is more likely to actually occur).

* [[The ship moves]], a setting where, in the grim darkness of the 51st Millennium, the God-Emperor of Mankind orders the construction of a giant ark to leave the failing [[Imperium]] behind.
* [[Story:The Shape Of The Nightmare To Come 50k]], a plot that manages to become even ''MORE'' grimdark than it already was, with the Emprah croaking, the Imperium splintered into [[Khaine]]-knows-how-many pieces, and several other incredibly crappy things changing the universe even further.
* [[Return of the Primarchs]], where the fall of Cadia coincides with the fleets of the fallen/dead Primarchs from before the HH, the Lost Primarchs get found and they all band together to help the living ones get up and bring the Imperium to a more presentable state. What seems to be happening in 8th.
* [[End Times]], Emps dies and is [[Heresy|re-incarnated as a woman.]]
*Legion XI: [[Age of Sigmar]] is actually lost primarch Sigmar's madness in the warp. [[The Emperor]] finds him. Galaxy goes [[Heresy|Imperium-hating]] even more than now. [[Warhammer fantasy]] returns.

==Fundamental Misunderstandings==
The problem in 40k is basically the date. That's it. The fluff writers can really can just play grab ass going back and forth over and over for another ten thousand years with no real setting defining changes easily enough. After all they've already done that once - The whole timeline from the heresy to today has resulted in basically no major changes but has still felt interesting. The status quo doesn't need to change, but there really does need to be some space for new fluff going forward so it's not just being stuffed in around existing events. We already have canon conflicts, and it'll only get worse to the point where everyone in the fluff is established as being at one specific place in 999.M41 and that's it. No more new fluff. You can leave out the major events, just takes us some number of years forward so things are actually interesting again. Or, hell, go BACK. There's absolutely nothing wrong with filling in TEN THOUSAND YEARS of time over a galaxy of space to make an interesting story!

==Exploring 10,000 years of factions and history==
Interestingly GeeDubs has actually made fluff from periods other than the end of the 41st millenium, The [[Horus Heresy]] is perhaps the biggest example of how the long timeline of the Imperium can be further exploited for new settings, with the armies of the 31st millenium being factions of their own and quite different than the current space marine chapters and [[Adeptus Mechanicus]] forces, and while some of the novels of that period have been lacklusting we have got other which are rightly among the best productions of Black Library. Similarly [[Battlefleet Gothic]] was set during the 12th [[Black Crusade]] and allowed the fans to take a look to the naval forces of the different factions, with a recent videogame allowing a sort of resurrection and rumours about a possible resurrection of the tabletop game.

It can be pointed out that Gaunt's Ghosts were set centuries before the current time period, yet it has allowed for a very popular book series without actually requiring to interact with the 13th Crusade, showing an actual good use of the Galaxy.

The novel series The Beast Arises has been covering the [[War of The Beast]] and the Beheading, allowing for new possible scenarios and campaigns and exploring the fate of Sisters of Silence, the emergence of the [[Deathwatch]] and the Ordo Xenos as well as bringing a new array of characters and potential new units as well as revealing unsuspected secrets from well establisehd factions, [[skub|and while some people didn't take it well other have quite enjoyed]] the chance of checking back the 32nd millenium with hopes of seeing other events explored.

==Warhammer Fantasy==
Unlike Warhammer 40k, the plotline of [[Warhammer Fantasy]] d̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶d̶v̶a̶n̶c̶e(did advance), but in small increments (which adds up to something big). Each edition and army book usually adds a little more fluff to the past (and maybe a retcon or two), rarely an update to the big prophesied battle between good and evil that decides the settings future, and a plot hook in the present.
For example, the 8th edition [[Vampire Counts]] and [[High Elves]] army books ([[Codex]] for 40k players) added a new story to the end of the army timelines that mentions how [[Mannfred von Carstein]] kidnapped the [[Everqueen]]'s daughter Aliathra, and is going to sacrifice her like a Frazetta painting to bring back the settings big BIG bad [[Nagash]] and that the greatest hero of the High Elves, Tyrion, has saved her and is riding at the head of a large High Elf army about to clash with a large Undead army.

Smaller updates (mainly gimmicks to sell a book and some models) like [[Storm of Magic]] will add a whole new event that extends the "present day" by a few months to a year. The infamous [[Warhammer Online]] was entirely non-canon which may have been what doomed it from the start. Regardless, Fantasy isn't THAT adventurous about advancing its plotline, but advancing it ''some'' hasn't sunk the ship.

===[[The End Times]] and [[Age of Sigmar]]: The Ultimate Arguments against Advancing the Storyline===
In late 2014, GW finally decided to advance the storyline just as the players wished. The general consensus of this was that it was pretty cool. The fools...

The Nagash book introduced these major changes by bringing back [[Nagash]] as a superpower in his own right. Heroes were killed and Chaos was for once not the big title threat, except to the Empire, since Nagash was getting ready to kick them out and take the world for himself. Many non-playable human nations were decimated and Nagash led all the Vampire Counts to Nehekhara. After a series of lengthy battles he overthrew Settra, forced most of the Tomb Kings to serve him and effectively destroyed Nehekhara's cities so it ceased to exist as a nation.

The Glottkin book saw the Empire become leveled between the titular triplets, Festus, and the others, and little else happened except an undead cameo with Vlad laying the groundwork to become Vampire Emperor. It...didn't work though he made progress.

The Khaine book was the book where the outlook of the End Times started whipping around. All of a sudden, Teclis became a master manipulator bar none, [[Malekith]] was revealed to be the true king all along and everyone was just a usurper. Tyron became an utter asshole and turned into Khaine incarnate, only to die like a bitch to Malekith and Alith Anar. The end result meant that all the elves got slapped into a single army, which caused frustration among the separate bases.

Thanquol just made things even worse, as the rest of the Empire finally collapsed with [[Valten]]'s death, Lustria gets blasted by meteors, the surviving Lizardmen go "Thanks for all the fish" and fly off into space, the Skaven destroy everyone who isn't the Empire or Bretonnia offscreen (and Bretonnia is also destroyed offscreen as well), and more Dwarfs get chopped. Also Gobbla got eaten, cue Goblin tears. We close with Skaven allying with the forces of Chaos.

Now Archaon was where shit broke. To make a long story short, Chaos wins and everyone dies, and there wasn't a damned thing anyone could do to stop it. And that they had been doing this to every universe that had preceded the then-current one, so they would just keep winning over and over again no matter what anyone did about it. By the end of the book, the entire Warhammer World had ceased to exist and every army and named character was killed off if they weren't already dead. In short, it was what GW wanted Storm of Chaos to be, but without that irritating "player interaction" messing up the plot they had planned out.

In a sense, one could see this as a monkey's paw wish; the fanbase finally got the Fantasy setting to advance, but it led to said setting being destroyed and replaced by a completely different setting. One could fearfully wonder now just what would happen if the End Times treatment happened to 40K, and the general consensus is "even the complete stagnation we have now is better than their insane ideas of progression." But if Games Workshop does the same to 40k, it likely means they're going out of business, because that setting has, among other things, their [[Space Marines|creator's pets]]. (And as it turns out, several of their new books seem to be showing disturbing parallels to The End Times...so make of that what you will.)

Age of Sigmar added another monkey wrench into the works; while the plot is nominally progressing with the promise of further developments in the future, it's not necessarily going to be a good thing given GW's track record thus far, and beyond a few shared characters who lack most of their original defining characteristics, most of the "new" Warhammer setting is barely recognizable as being connected to the old one at all. Two long-time factions, Bretonnia and the Tomb Kings, [[FAIL|were squatted without even an explanation]]. In short, advancing the storyline only works when the people writing it aren't absolutely clueless on how to do so, and GW has shown absolutely no signs of being remotely competent enough to pull it off. Unfortunately, recent events in 40k suggest Geedubs has learned nothing from the experience and is on the verge of doing the same thing again.

While the game has certainly improved since its release, especially in the gameplay sector, as an actual narrative setting it still leaves a lot to be desired (one of the most glaring examples is us not knowing how half the realms look like, how they function or even how realms function in general). This (coupled with the destruction of a setting that was well liked narratively, if not competitively) means Age of Sigmar can still be seen as an against to advancing the storyline (though what the New Games Workshop(tm)has so far shown us regarding 40k is [[Skub|promising]]).

==Yep, They're Doing It==
2017 barely had time to start before GeeDubs released ''Fall of Cadia''. With this, the clock has finally struck midnight and the year 41,000 officially begins. And this being 40k, instead of just dropping the Times Square Ball in a shower of fireworks and cheering, they drop the entire planet in a shower of shredded limbs and howling of the dead. [[Creed]] loses his arm AND [[Colour Sergeant Jarran Kell|Jarran Kell]], [[Abbadon]] loses his spleen, [[Trazyn]] shows up and gives the Imperium instructions on how to supercharged the pylons to the point they close the [[Eye of Terror]] for a moment, and <s>the Chaos gods call a bullshit DM fiat and blow up the planet AFTER the Necron anti-warp pylons have been turned up to maximum</s> Abaddon sacrifices his [[Blackstone Fortress]] and rams the planet in a failed gambit to finally [[Awesome|kill Creed]], blowing up the [[Cadian Pylons|pylons]] and giving the Cadian 8th the best fucking last stand ever as the Eye opens up and spews forth all of the [[Chaos]] all over [[Cadia]]. Creed barely survives, and is taken by Trazyn as a souvenir before he can bleed out because this is Trazyn we're talking about here.

[[Eldrad]] got himself put on trial for being a dick even by [[Eldar]] standards, but was vindicated when it turned out he really did manage to awaken [[Ynnead]] early. Ynnead's fledgeling faction of followers has since rallied members of all three major Eldar factions to itself, with the goal of bringing Ynnead to its full strength. Following the near-destruction of Biel-Tan by Chaos, they resolved to seek an alliance with the Imperium against their common enemy- no tricks or deception this time, just an agreement to not kill each other while the Dark Gods are on their doorsteps.

And to cap it all off, [[Roboute Guilliman]] was [[Matt Ward|brought back to life]] with the help of said Eldar and became Lord Commander of the Imperium once again. Predictably, he was rather upset with how far the Imperium had fallen since he was last conscious.

[[Warhammer 40,000 8th edition]] has been putting all of the above into overdrive; when the giant Warp storm dividing the Imperium in half is one of the '''smaller''' changes seen thus far, you know things are going to be shaken up. Hard. As of April 2018, the setting has continued to move forward since the release of the new edition, but thankfully the setting does not appear to be on the same path as The End Times. Not yet, at least.

==See Also==
*[[Your dudes]]

[[Category:Warhammer 40,000]]
[[Category: Warhammer Fantasy]]