Editing Roboute Guilliman (section)

==Popular Opinion==
{{Topquote|All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.|Sun Tzu}}

Guilliman is partially hated by the community at large because of [[Matt Ward | Mattards]] Codex: Space Marines. However, it is worth stating that Guilliman was probably one of the most important figures holding the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy. He's one of the [[Jaghatai Khan|few]] Primarchs to realize that the Emperor's ideals were more important than the man himself, which is something that [[Malcador the Sigillite|Malcador]] kept preaching.

He was also among the best Primarchs when it came to logistics and organization, though [[Perturabo]] was probably better (but Guilliman wasn't an antisocial autistic weirdo, so there's that), which is pretty much one of the only reasons why the [[Imperium of Man]] didn't collapse after the Horus Heresy. He was able to train and equip more Marines during the [[Great Crusade]] than any other Legion (though he also stole some from the Two Lost Legions giving credence to the Word Bearers accusations on his Legion, as was confirmed in ''The Chamber at the end of Memory''(note a demon shows this and demon are [[Bullshit|''always'' trustworthy]]), and he wrote the [[Codex Astartes]], still the standard for Space Marine tactics. He is credited with reorganizing the entire governmental and administrative system of the [[Imperium of Man]] (yes, the reorganized Administratum ended up running the galaxy into the ground, but the fact that it's still running at all is a good sign).

However as the Horus Heresy series continues, it is revealed that it was actually [[Malcador the Sigillite]] who had been creating the foundations for the later Imperium. In fact it is continuously being hinted that Guilliman positioned himself to take over the Imperium after the fall of the Emperor, being almost explicitly stated in ''Vengeful Spirit''. Whether through good intentions or through sinister means has yet to be revealed. Funnily enough Kor Phaeron, who hated his guts, identified him as the Primarch best suited to succeed his dad, though given the source, that may well be intended as an insult. Well, and the well-known fact that Sanguinius had all of the Emperor’s best traits, including his massive psychic power, and none of the flaws. So, Sanguinius would be the best Emperor/Prince/whatever. Despite this, Guilliman claimed that he had no desire to be Emperor and promised his brothers that if the otherwise impassable Ruinstorm abated, he would immediately send his fleet to Terra. That said, the Blood Angels managed to get back to Terra somehow, despite being on the wrong side of it, so it's unknown just how difficult it was to get back. (The Dark Angels and the Smurfs covered the Blood Angels' path from the Traitor onslaught.)

''Unfortunately'', thanks to 10,000 years of propaganda and exaggeration (and Matt Ward's Codex: Space Marines), Guilliman is ''absolutely perfect'' in every way and treated as ''second only to the Emperor'' through ''the entire Imperium.'' This is incorrect, considering that [[Sebastian Thor]] is actually the main Imperial saint, and [[Sanguinius]] is the primarch most beloved by the common men of the Imperium. Regardless, Guilliman is pretty high on the list and the only Primarch whose body <s>is</s> was on public display Lenin style. This "better than thou" shit is sad and quite paradoxical, since Guilliman himself genuinely recognized [[Lion El'Jonson|some]] [[Horus|Primarchs]] were better than him as leaders. He also considered Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus and Russ as what he called "the dauntless few" feeling he'd win any war if fighting alongside any one of them and their legions, which shows a willingness to work alongside at least some of his brothers and respect for their abilities. He has sometimes been portrayed as petty or jealous of his brother Primarchs but also intelligent enough to acknowledge his own errors when proved wrong. Far from the "perfect in every aspect" figure Matt Ward promoted, the HH Guilliman is actually a man with a lot of very human weaknesses but possessing the humility to admit them as flaws he must deal with.

[[Fallen Angels|Astelan]], while a prisoner of the [[Dark Angels]] goes into detail explaining how Guilliman was purportedly the 'greatest' of the Primarchs, but only in the context of what the Emperor intended for them. Astelan describes that Guilliman was "not the most able-minded, nor as charismatic, and not as physically adept" and was the inferior of [[Horus]] in every respect. His greatness came from the fact that Guilliman never once wavered in dedication and service and created his Space Marines to be exemplars of the imperial ideal, not merely conquerors. This also had the (at the time unintended) side-effect of making them unlikely to become corrupted. (Although Astelan was also a traitor and a fallen angel, so he remains a questionable source.) Of course, the same could be said of the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists. Guilliman and his Ultramarines were the perfect <u>sons</u>, not necessarily perfect soldiers. Again, the same can be said of the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists except they also manage to be the perfect warriors/soldiers (respectively) as well as the perfect sons. It's also worthy of note that much like [[Rogal Dorn]] and [[Lion El'Jonson]], Guilliman was a possible candidate for the position of warmaster, but was rejected for the same reasons they were: he didn't get along with a quite a number of his brothers unlike Horus who was nearly universally respected, even by the more batshit insane Primarchs. Though apparently the Emperor also forgot Sanguinius existed. You know, the guy with all the best traits of the Emperor and none of his flaws, was revered by literally everyone, and was loved by every Astartes and every Primarch. He just had the slight issue of technically being a mutant with those wings and it seems that was the deal breaker.

However, contrary to that, he also did a lot of tricky things in [[Horus Heresy]], like that whole [[Imperium Secundus]] thing, and it's popularly theorized that he was bitter that he never got to be '''Warmaster''', which despite his claims that he had no desire to become Emperor, when he appointed the [[High Lords of Terra]] he nominated himself for the seat of '''Lord Commander of the Imperium''' which was a title "Warmaster" could only dream of, as he had ''both'' the command of the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces and civil institutions (remember, one of the reasons Horus being pissed off at dad was that he had no control over decisions made by High Lords of Terra). So claiming that no man should have the power of a Legion, then place himself at the top of the chain of command for all of the [[Space Marine Chapter|Chapters]] that his remaining brothers were left with was a bit hypocritical.


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Or was it?
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It's quite likely that Guilliman's actions in creating the Imperium Secundus, and his later actions during the reformation of the Imperium, are a reference to the Roman practice of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator Roman Dictatorship]. A roman dictator was more or less what we think of as a modern dictator, with one key exception. The dictator was given absolute executive and military power over Rome and her holdings in times of crisis, when the gridlock and bureaucratic red tape of Roman society got in the way of doing what needed to be done. But as strange as it sounds to our modern minds, dictators were elected to their position, and without exception in all the history of Rome every dictator willingly stepped down and returned power to the senate. Except Caesar and Octavius. For the latter case, he is the most revered one (''Augustus''), hence it is entirely ''reasonable'' for him to keep being dictator. And even then, he was smart enough to maintain power through indirect means so as to let the Senate think that they were in control, when in reality he owned all of the institutions that actually mattered when it came to governance.

It's highly likely that Guilliman's actions after the Emperor's death are a reference to this practice: he set aside the normal moral and legal rules restricting him so that he could restructure the Imperium. And just like Augustus, he gave the official leadership position to Sanguinius to avoid accusations of being a deliberate separatist. Despite the fact that he was in the perfect position to assume power over the entire Imperium, he probably would have relinquished power to the Council of Terra after some sense of stability had returned (he was stabbed by Fulgrim before that moment came though). This is further supported by how heavily his legion leans on Roman culture, and how much Guilliman himself draws on the famous generals of Rome (Julius and Augustus Caesar, Trajan, Cincinnatus, etc).</div></div>

So with that being said, he was no more flawless than the other Primarchs; even during the Great Crusade, while he was considered to be one of the greatest strategists in the entire Imperium, he was defeated in combat simulations by [[Corax]] of the [[Raven Guard]], having to be specifically taught that there is no fixed dividing line between non-combatants and soldiers when people are defending their homes; that under-strength units should not be ruled out as ineffective; and that small units of adaptable troops can be wielded with just as much effect as larger battalions and chapters. Furthermore, Guilliman stuck closely to his tried and true methods, refusing to give credit to what he considered "unconventional" tactics, pissing off many other Primarchs, most notably [[Alpharius]]. Even though he would later be shown by his own men how effective such unconventional guerrilla tactics would be and would include then in his codex.

Therefore, while some people insist he was the Primarch with the greatest mental capacity and adaptability, he struggled with lateral thinking and would frequently fail to see the flaws in his methods until explicitly shown the error of his ways. Also, though the Codex Astartes undoubtedly did a lot of good things like making sure each chapter could feasibly fight under most conditions no matter their heritage or preference and ensuring that no one person could control an entire Legion's worth of Space Marines, forcing all of his brothers to split their Legions into [[Codex Astartes|Chapters]] risked a second galactic civil war.

Additionally, although it isn't (entirely) his fault, Guilliman is usually blamed for turning the Ultramarines into such little bitches. The Codex is now basically treated as infallible by the Ultramarines (at least the more blind fuck ones; there's at least [[Captain Titus|some]] who take it with a grain of salt and realize where its strengths and weaknesses lie), even though he ''specifically said'' that the Codex should not be treated as a bible to be followed unerringly... except for the organizational parts, which he forced on his brothers as part of the post-Heresy reforms and which were upheld by the High Lords of Terra as a means of keeping the Astartes in check. 

Recently he's been increasingly entrusted to the care of the Mighty [[Dan Abnett]] and his asshat level is dropping rapidly. Now, Guilliman isn't portrayed as a power armored Sun Tzu, but as a logistical genius, planning planetary conquest in a way that would leave said worlds in a state that could quickly be returned to order and Imperial rule. His high number of compliant worlds is a direct product of this, helped by his Legion's innate tendency towards discipline, hierarchy and monomaniacal fixation on whatever their objective might be. Abnett also doesn't make him a "master of all trades". The Khan is better at scouting operations, Russ is better at killing other Marines, Sanguinius has better people skills, etc. Abnett's Guilliman is a great administrator, better than any other Primarch, but '''not''' better than [[Your Dudes]] at what they're defined by.

This adherence toward a rigid chain of command did end up becoming a double-edged sword later on, since when Guilliman was put into stasis the Ultramarines still tried to follow him (thanks to him being the at the top of the chain) and as such started to forget that the Codex Astartes was only meant to be a guideline, as opposed to a definitive text. More importantly, they slowly lost their ability to adapt to new situations, which was their most famed of traits, until the Tyrannic Wars illustrated the need to improvise new strategies when old ones failed them (which was 10,000 years later, so they had a pretty good run relying on the Codex as strictly as they did).

Once upon a time, thanks to the rabid fanboying of [[Matt Ward]], most of [[/tg/]] hated him, but many of them have since come around. Still expect people to [[Rage|bitch endlessly]] about how he was an absolute [[Leman Russ|narrow-minded]] [[Lion El'Jonson|hypocritical]] [[Dorn|jerk]], but don't feel bad about it. On the other hand his characterisation since his return especially in the 2 novels by Guy Haley has been pretty well received by the fanbase. He's been lucky to survive his encounters with Magnus and Mortarion who both easily outmatched him and is deeply unhappy with the Imperium and the Emperor alongside supposed allies like the inquisition actively making his life difficult because their power is threatened. Pretty far removed from the mary sue spiritual liege of Ward's imagination, at least until GW, BL and/or Ward inevitable undo it all with bad writing (like recent article in White Dwarf about Indomitus Crusade where every logical loophole is patched with "but Guilliman was in charge, so it worked out").

Ironically enough, Guilliman has something the Imperium needs even more desperately than new technologies and peace: managerial skills, among the primarchs Guilliman was the only one who actually seemed to be bright enough to understand and strongly insist upon. No [[Eldar|empire]], no matter how militarily powerful [[Dark Age of Technology|initially]], could maintain that strength forever given [[Slaanesh|the effects of corruption]] and inefficiency upon tax collection and military production, and civilian and military morale. It says something about most of the denizens of 4chan that so few of them have ever pointed out this simple fact (as in little of them have management experience, but hey, we're considering gamers here).

On a side note, he likes Shakespeare's work. Which is nice.

===Suddenly, Forge World!===
[[Image:Girlyman.jpg|400px|thumb|right|[[Dwarfs (Warhammer Fantasy)|Guilliman atop his mighty Oathstone (not seen are the Chapter Serfs who get the honour of carrying him around)! Note how tiny his sword is. Matt Ward does not approve.]]]]
When Tempest came out, it significantly downplayed his flaws, though not as much as knee-jerk reactions made people fear. In Tempest Guilliman is "held by some as a paragon among the Emperor's sons", and that he "is as much a statesman as he is an indefatigable warrior". He's also as just as great a strategist, in addition to being very level-headed, one of the smartest and most analytical, constantly basing new and better designs off of existing materials, as well as refining battle plans thanks to having a mind that calmly and coldly allows him to analyze everything around him and wonder how various things like his marines, his armour and his weapons could all be improved. He observes what other Primarchs do with their warriors and tries to make them better in his own creations, in doing so (specifically copying Perturabo's Siege Tyrants in the rules) they say he's "proving himself once again the master of all of the myriad disciplines of war". Or at least trying to. This is further evidenced by his rules below where he's good at buffing his army, but not to the degree of [[Alpharius]] or [[Perturabo]] while as a warrior in a straight-up fight he only loses to Horus, Leman Russ, and Fulgrim''(not counting [[Lorgar|psychic]] [[Magnus the Red|interference]] or Primarchs with a [[Angron|bit of momentum behind them]])''.

In addition, Guilliman's Ultramarines during the Horus Heresy were one of the most disciplined of all the Legions, as well as by far the most numerous, the ones who prized intelligence above all to help them formulate the best battle plan, and with the best training/recruitment (rivaled only by the [[Dark Angels|I Legion]], whose training was faster but overall must have been less efficient in some way given the much greater number of Ultramarines(or the Lion just didn’t have reliable access to 500 individual worlds for recruitment)) not to mention being familiar with the less eccentric legions MO's and able to pull them off without any problems which had a lot to do with their rigid chain of command. The Imperial Fists were known for their interlocked shield walls, the Iron Hands for their steadiness under fire, the Iron Warriors for their willingness to accept casualties, the Salamanders for their courage in the face of overwhelming odds, and you can bet the Ultras learned from these aspects of all their ways of warfare. This isn't to say that the Ultramarines could do anything any other legion could do, but rather to say that they were *almost* as capable at any given task as any of their brother legions, which granted them much greater flexibility than most other legions. For example, if the [[World Eaters]] got into a campaign where the enemy could consistently avoid getting into melee, they'd be fucked. If the [[Night Lords]] got into battle with a fearless enemy, they'd be at a disadvantage. Ditto with the Alpha Legion and a smarter opponent, the Iron Warriors and an especially mobile opponent, etc. Due to the Ultramarine's discipline, diverse training, and expert planning, they ended up having a level of tactical flexibility matched only by a [[Sons of Horus|few]] [[Dark Angels|other]] [[Alpha Legion|armies]]. In any case, in Tempest Horus considers the Ultramarines as the greatest single military threat to Horus's rebellion. The books outright state that if the Ultramarines were aware of Horus' rebellion they and their Auxilia would be able to make [[Ultramar|the 500 worlds]] a bastion that by itself, would be able to weather the entire heresy and challenge [[Horus]] for control of the eastern half of the Galaxy, even before the Traitor Legions took massive losses on Isstvaan III.

A more generous explanation could be that since the books were written after the Heresy from an in-universe perspective, it could just be a case of "history is written by the winners" kicking in again, since (rather thankfully) "Everything is canon, not everything is true." Or maybe Matt was secretly brought back for that particular book, which would go quite a long way in explaining all of the Smurf wanking in it. It's likely we'll have to wait until the follow-up book on the Shadow Crusade to determine which of those it is. This doesn't entirely go against 40k's history however, while saying the smurfs and their auxiliaries could take on all of the traitor legions at full strength is undoubtedly complete horseshit, Ultramar was ''always'' considered to have been one of the greatest threats to Horus' rebellion and was the prime reason that the Battle of Calth took place; to get them all in one place and hit them with a surprise attack, and then pin the Ultramarines in place for the duration of the Heresy. The same applies to Guilliman, who has always been considered to have been one of the most intelligent and adaptable of Primarchs, as well as being gifted with his own brilliance.

Thankfully Guilliman still retains some flaws. First, he has little in the way of a creative spark. Submit a novel idea to him and he'll adapt, optimize, expand, integrate and generally improve upon it; but he won't be the one coming up with said ideas on his own. For instance, after seeing the [[Iron Warriors]] deploy Tyrant Siege Terminators he realised [[Perturabo]]'s idea had a lot of merit and he developed an improved version of Cataphractii Terminator Armour equipped with additional sensors and augurs to make his Fulmentarus squads even more efficient at blowing shit up. Guilliman was the one to formalize the use of and optimally deploy Moritat, but he only conceptualised the very idea of using such irregular troops after getting his arse kicked in simulations by Corax who used said Moritat against him to throw his carefully laid battle-plans into disarray. He made his own versions of power weapons that were far better than regular power weapons as they were more precise/lethal when in trained hands, yet he could only do that after studying countless designs of regular power weapons. Even his own armour is artificer armour that he improved in various ways after studying the merits and disadvantages of other designs. Furthermore, the Space Wolves were confirmed in Inferno to react more quickly to unexpected problems than Legions more ''"reliant on highly coordinated planning"''; which might as well call out the Ultramarines by name. This is shown on the tabletop with a rule that lets the opponent wrong-foot the Ultramarine army if the UM warlord is killed.

Second, you have his often blind faith in the assumption that his and therefore Ultramarine nobility and camaraderie will rub off on to other, less forward thinking legions, which was a direct contributor to his massive losses at the utterly disastrous [[Battle of Calth]]. ''Know No Fear'' makes a point to show numerous times that there were signs and hints all over the place of what was going to happen, ''right after'' the book makes a point to show Guilliman's incredible observational skills, almost outright stating that he really should have picked up on the disparate details. ''Tempest'' also points out that the Horus Heresy actually began almost a year prior to the Battle of Calth and that both the [[Word Bearers]] and [[World Eaters]] were already burning their way through the 500 Worlds of Ultramar before they even reached the Calth system. Guilliman ignored those signs, and practically delivered his legion to [[Lorgar]] on a silver platter, deliberately setting troop arrangements so that his men intermingled with the Urizen's. He thought that spending time together at the muster and again later, killing orks would be a bonding experience that would help the legions grow closer. It didn't, and not only did it not help, his troops being where they were gave the Word Bearers a MASSIVE advantage.

To Guilliman's credit, consider that a force with the advantage of surprise, was equipped with superior wargear ''(that the Warmaster made sure his traitors had)'', that had orbital and air supremacy, and had access to almost unlimited demonic hordes ambushed a force completely out of position and almost instantaneously cut off from their command structure. With ALL THOSE ADVANTAGES, the Word Bearers only achieved a 3:1 casualty ratio by the end of the battle, though the Ultramarines stellar performance under the circumstances did little to soothe the loss of almost half his legion, half a million Army and Auxilia as well as billions of civilians. It is perhaps no surprise that Imperial history records that Guilliman completely lost his temper and cool at Lorgar when the treachery was realised [[RAGE|(insert max troll face here)]], perhaps this was what allowed him to survive and fight immediately afterwards the near vacuum outside a ship for 11 hours without his helmet?

But lets be clear: Say what you want about him being a back-stabbing cheater, Lorgar delivered a master-stroke by being able to conceal months of earlier engagements from his enemy and then cause ~140,000 Ultramarines to be either killed or crippled in a single engagement; such a force of Space Marines was [[Salamanders|larger]] [[Raven Guard|than]] [[Imperial Fists|some]] [[Death Guard|entire]] [[Thousand Sons|legions]]. This is compounded by the fact that Lorgar completed all of this by ''only'' deploying 50,000 of his most disposable troops and leaving the battle under the command of [[Kor Phaeron]] so he could continue pillaging with [[Angron]]. In addition, the real goal of Calth was never to ''actually'' kill Guilliman or obliterate his legion but to create the Ruinstorm and force Guilliman [[Imperium Secundus|onto the defensive]] and starve Terra of resources that Guilliman would pull from elsewhere and help the Traitor cause in the long run. Lorgar might not have been anywhere near the same level as strategist or general as Guilliman in [[Manly Marines|even warfare]], but military victories won through surprise, misdirection and clever deployment are just as valid.

On the other side (and that is a good point) Guilliman and the Ultramarines are not as "noblebright" in ''Tempest'' as they can be in other pieces of background. While he promotes meritocracy and progress and refuses to waste any life, Roboute is always described as cold and logical, obsessed with efficiency, and not a kind of crusading philanthropist. FW's Guilliman is first and foremost a statesman and a warlord willing to make the most effective system possible, and ''Tempest'' implies he used a kind of political police of his own (the Vigil Opertii) to silence any opposition in Ultramar. Just like the Imperium does. The only difference with the other Primarchs is Guilliman cannot deny HE is responsible for all the [[1984|authoritarian shit]] happening in HIS private empire. Feel free to think what you want about Guilliman being OP or a Mary Sue, FW still made him more grimdark than before, even if he remains a nice dude by 30k standards.