A Song of Ice and Fire - Revision history

185.220.101.161 at 15:43, 20 May 2026

2026-05-20T15:43:40Z

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			{{cleanup}}
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	[[image:Game_of_Thrones_Title-DVD.png\|300px\|thumb\|WIENER PARTY! WIENER PARTY!]]		[[image:Game_of_Thrones_Title-DVD.png\|300px\|thumb\|WIENER PARTY! WIENER PARTY!]]

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	{{Topquote\|Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up, she was shitting brown water. The more she drank the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water.\|A day in the life of Daenerys Targaryen, ''A Dance with Dragons''}}		{{Topquote\|Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up, she was shitting brown water. The more she drank the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water.\|A day in the life of Daenerys Targaryen, ''A Dance with Dragons''}}


	'''''A Song of Ice and Fire''''', better known as '''''Game of Thrones''''' (though only the first book has that title) is a [[Grimdark]] fantasy book series for people who hate fantasy, or at the very least, have gotten their fill of Tolkien pretenders and want something more "distinct". Its central themes include [[Tzeentch\|political Machiavellian scheming]], [[Khorne\|ultraviolence]], [[Slaanesh\|incest/sex with exposition/tons of rape]], and [[Nurgle\|everyone trying to survive in such a Crapsack World of perpetual suffering]]. There is also lots and lots of food. Thus it has become one of the most popular series of our generation and its author, [[George R. R. Martin]], has been praised for his highly realized world and gritty low fantasy style. He was even called "the American [[Tolkien]]" by <s>Time magazine</s> gormless idiots who lump diametrically different writers together for no other reason than that they're both fantasy authors. The two authors do both have a passion (and talent) for worldbuilding and writing doorstoppers, but that's also where the similarities generally end. Still, the comparisons to Tolkien would probably explain this series' sudden spike in popularity following the TV show (at least [[Skub\|to a point, anyway.]]) The great joke of an actual World War veteran writing fantasy about heroic knights and elves being compared to and contrasted with a conscientious objector who writes edgy fantasy is not lost on most (though it's worth mentioning that Martin is as much of a Tolkien buff as any of us, meaning that he didn't write the series as a "fuck you" to Tolkien's work as some might assume).		'''''A Song of Ice and Fire''''', better known as '''''Game of Thrones''''' (though only the first book has that title) is a [[Grimdark]] fantasy book series for people who hate fantasy, or at the very least, have gotten their fill of Tolkien pretenders and want something more "distinct". Its central themes include [[Tzeentch\|political Machiavellian scheming]], [[Khorne\|ultraviolence]], [[Slaanesh\|incest/sex with exposition/tons of rape]], and [[Nurgle\|everyone trying to survive in such a Crapsack World of perpetual suffering]]. There is also lots and lots of food. Thus it has become one of the most popular series of our generation and its author, [[George R. R. Martin]], has been praised for his highly realized world and gritty low fantasy style. He was even called "the American [[Tolkien]]" by <s>Time magazine</s> gormless idiots who lump diametrically different writers together for no other reason than that they're both fantasy authors. The two authors do both have a passion (and talent) for worldbuilding and writing doorstoppers, but that's also where the similarities generally end. Still, the comparisons to Tolkien would probably explain this series' sudden spike in popularity following the TV show (at least [[Skub\|to a point, anyway.]]) The great joke of an actual World War veteran writing fantasy about heroic knights and elves being compared to and contrasted with a conscientious objector who writes edgy fantasy is not lost on most (though it's worth mentioning that Martin is as much of a Tolkien buff as any of us, meaning that he didn't write the series as a "fuck you" to Tolkien's work as some might assume).

imported>Administrator: 816 revisions imported

2023-06-17T15:31:56Z

816 revisions imported

← Older revision	Revision as of 15:31, 17 June 2023
(No difference)

1d4chan>Saarlacfunkel at 07:40, 6 June 2023

2023-06-06T07:40:50Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:40, 6 June 2023
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	'''[[High Fantasy]]:''' But if you scratch the surface, ASOIAF is also a High Fantasy setting, which is always the more marketable of the two, with the big backstory about how the world is facing impending doom from an army of wintery [[fey]] and their [[undead]] minions. There are also non-evil higher powers working against them, but they get swept under the rug in the show. Also, [[dragon]]s. As the more marketable genre, it's also inevitably the more skubby one, for whatever that's worth.		'''[[High Fantasy]]:''' But if you scratch the surface, ASOIAF is also a High Fantasy setting, which is always the more marketable of the two, with the big backstory about how the world is facing impending doom from an army of wintery [[fey]] and their [[undead]] minions. There are also non-evil higher powers working against them, but they get swept under the rug in the show. Also, [[dragon]]s. As the more marketable genre, it's also inevitably the more skubby one, for whatever that's worth.

	As a minor manifestation of both points, often you'll get two explanations for something in the books: a fantastic one involving curses, sorcery, ancient creatures from ages shrouded in myth, prophecy, etc and a mundane one involving slight-of-hand, embellished stories, economics, mechanical solutions, etc. In A Song of Ice and Fire, both are usually valid you are left guessing which is which.		As a minor manifestation of both points, often you'll get two explanations for something in the books: a fantastic one involving curses, sorcery, ancient creatures from ages shrouded in myth, prophecy, etc and a mundane one involving slight-of-hand, embellished stories, economics, mechanical solutions, etc. In A Song of Ice and Fire, both are usually valid, so you are left guessing which is which (with "both" being a probable answer in some cases).

	'''[[Magical Realm\|Gratuitous Sexuality]]:''' More a thing for the TV show than the books; GRRM's scenes were [[Rape\|raepy]] in the earlier volumes, and apparently our boy must have overheard the nickname "George Rape Rape Martin (I ''Like'' Rape)", because he dialed back the forced boning in #4-5. The frequent scenes of nudity and sex in the early seasons of the show were a ''big'' selling point for many people (the casting of people from the sex industry for some of these scenes also helped).		'''[[Magical Realm\|Gratuitous Sexuality]]:''' More a thing for the TV show than the books; GRRM's scenes were [[Rape\|raepy]] in the earlier volumes, and apparently our boy must have overheard the nickname "George Rape Rape Martin (I ''Like'' Rape)", because he dialed back the forced boning in #4-5. The frequent scenes of nudity and sex in the early seasons of the show were a ''big'' selling point for many people (the casting of people from the sex industry for some of these scenes also helped).

1d4chan>Saarlacfunkel at 07:39, 6 June 2023

2023-06-06T07:39:16Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:39, 6 June 2023
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	'''[[High Fantasy]]:''' But if you scratch the surface, ASOIAF is also a High Fantasy setting, which is always the more marketable of the two, with the big backstory about how the world is facing impending doom from an army of wintery [[fey]] and their [[undead]] minions. There are also non-evil higher powers working against them, but they get swept under the rug in the show. Also, [[dragon]]s. As the more marketable genre, it's also inevitably the more skubby one, for whatever that's worth.		'''[[High Fantasy]]:''' But if you scratch the surface, ASOIAF is also a High Fantasy setting, which is always the more marketable of the two, with the big backstory about how the world is facing impending doom from an army of wintery [[fey]] and their [[undead]] minions. There are also non-evil higher powers working against them, but they get swept under the rug in the show. Also, [[dragon]]s. As the more marketable genre, it's also inevitably the more skubby one, for whatever that's worth.

	As a minor manifestation of both points, often you'll get two explanations for something in the books: a fantastic one involving curses, sorcery, ancient creatures from ages shrouded in myth, prophecy, etc and a mundane one involving slight-of-hand, embellished stories, economics, mechanical solutions, etc. In A Song of Ice and Fire, both are valid you are left guessing which is which.		As a minor manifestation of both points, often you'll get two explanations for something in the books: a fantastic one involving curses, sorcery, ancient creatures from ages shrouded in myth, prophecy, etc and a mundane one involving slight-of-hand, embellished stories, economics, mechanical solutions, etc. In A Song of Ice and Fire, both are usually valid you are left guessing which is which.

	'''[[Magical Realm\|Gratuitous Sexuality]]:''' More a thing for the TV show than the books; GRRM's scenes were [[Rape\|raepy]] in the earlier volumes, and apparently our boy must have overheard the nickname "George Rape Rape Martin (I ''Like'' Rape)", because he dialed back the forced boning in #4-5. The frequent scenes of nudity and sex in the early seasons of the show were a ''big'' selling point for many people (the casting of people from the sex industry for some of these scenes also helped).		'''[[Magical Realm\|Gratuitous Sexuality]]:''' More a thing for the TV show than the books; GRRM's scenes were [[Rape\|raepy]] in the earlier volumes, and apparently our boy must have overheard the nickname "George Rape Rape Martin (I ''Like'' Rape)", because he dialed back the forced boning in #4-5. The frequent scenes of nudity and sex in the early seasons of the show were a ''big'' selling point for many people (the casting of people from the sex industry for some of these scenes also helped).

1d4chan>A Walrus: /* The appeal of A Song of Ice And Fire */

2023-06-06T06:06:56Z

The appeal of A Song of Ice And Fire

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:06, 6 June 2023
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	'''[[High Fantasy]]:''' But if you scratch the surface, ASOIAF is also a High Fantasy setting, which is always the more marketable of the two, with the big backstory about how the world is facing impending doom from an army of wintery [[fey]] and their [[undead]] minions. There are also non-evil higher powers working against them, but they get swept under the rug in the show. Also, [[dragon]]s. As the more marketable genre, it's also inevitably the more skubby one, for whatever that's worth.		'''[[High Fantasy]]:''' But if you scratch the surface, ASOIAF is also a High Fantasy setting, which is always the more marketable of the two, with the big backstory about how the world is facing impending doom from an army of wintery [[fey]] and their [[undead]] minions. There are also non-evil higher powers working against them, but they get swept under the rug in the show. Also, [[dragon]]s. As the more marketable genre, it's also inevitably the more skubby one, for whatever that's worth.

			As a minor manifestation of both points, often you'll get two explanations for something in the books: a fantastic one involving curses, sorcery, ancient creatures from ages shrouded in myth, prophecy, etc and a mundane one involving slight-of-hand, embellished stories, economics, mechanical solutions, etc. In A Song of Ice and Fire, both are valid you are left guessing which is which.

	'''[[Magical Realm\|Gratuitous Sexuality]]:''' More a thing for the TV show than the books; GRRM's scenes were [[Rape\|raepy]] in the earlier volumes, and apparently our boy must have overheard the nickname "George Rape Rape Martin (I ''Like'' Rape)", because he dialed back the forced boning in #4-5. The frequent scenes of nudity and sex in the early seasons of the show were a ''big'' selling point for many people (the casting of people from the sex industry for some of these scenes also helped).		'''[[Magical Realm\|Gratuitous Sexuality]]:''' More a thing for the TV show than the books; GRRM's scenes were [[Rape\|raepy]] in the earlier volumes, and apparently our boy must have overheard the nickname "George Rape Rape Martin (I ''Like'' Rape)", because he dialed back the forced boning in #4-5. The frequent scenes of nudity and sex in the early seasons of the show were a ''big'' selling point for many people (the casting of people from the sex industry for some of these scenes also helped).

1d4chan>A Walrus: /* Locations */

2023-05-28T13:36:38Z

Locations

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:36, 28 May 2023
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	**Tyrosh: Greedy slavers. Not really notable, except they're one-third of the constant warfare of the Disputed Lands along with Lys and Myr and for being extremely flamboyant.		**Tyrosh: Greedy slavers. Not really notable, except they're one-third of the constant warfare of the Disputed Lands along with Lys and Myr and for being extremely flamboyant.
	**Volantis: The crown jewel, first colony of the Freehold and considers itself the successor state to the Freehold.		**Volantis: The crown jewel, first colony of the Freehold and considers itself the successor state to the Freehold.
	**Lorath: No, they don't speak for the trees. Lorath is the poorest of the Free Cities, and not much is known about them. Its most notable feature are the underground labyrinths that dot the island and which predate the Valyrians. Typical of Martin, the Labyrinths and a similar cult in Essos (the cult of the Pattern) are a reference to someone else's work, [[Dick\|but no, he doesn't like fanfiction]].		**Lorath: No, they don't speak for the trees. Lorath is the poorest of the Free Cities, and not much is known about them. Its most notable feature are the underground labyrinths that dot the island and which predate the Valyrians. They also talk in the third person, saying "a man, a woman, a boy, a girl" instead of "Me, I, You, Him, Her" etc. Typical of Martin, the Labyrinths and a similar cult in Essos (the cult of the Pattern) are a reference to someone else's work, [[Dick\|but no, he doesn't like fanfiction]].
	*Ghiscari Empire and Slavers Bay: To the East of Valyria and the Free Cities, these cities pre-date Valyria. Before they were conquered, they had their own empire and worshiped the Harpy. Nowadays, they trade with the Dothraki, exchanging tribute for slaves, which they then market to the rest of the World. Vaguely the [[Middle East]] of ASOIAF. They are: Old Ghis, New Ghis, Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen. In the books, Dany is stuck here trying to manage the clusterfuck that is deslaverizing these lands. Currently locked in a brutal war where the newly-freed slaves are either fighting the surviving slaver-nobles, other cities, or each other.		*Ghiscari Empire and Slavers Bay: To the East of Valyria and the Free Cities, these cities pre-date Valyria. Before they were conquered, they had their own empire and worshiped the Harpy. Nowadays, they trade with the Dothraki, exchanging tribute for slaves, which they then market to the rest of the World. Vaguely the [[Middle East]] of ASOIAF. They are: Old Ghis, New Ghis, Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen. In the books, Dany is stuck here trying to manage the clusterfuck that is deslaverizing these lands. Currently locked in a brutal war where the newly-freed slaves are either fighting the surviving slaver-nobles, other cities, or each other.
	*Qarth: What separates the "East" from the "Far East." It's to the East of Slaver's Bay and West of not!China/Japan, so any traffic between the Free Cities, Slaver's bay, and them, requires them to pass through Qarth. Home to a bunch of fucking weirdo Orientalist tropes that vie for power: The Pureborn, the noble descendants of ancient Qaathi Kings and Queens that fled the sacking of their cities to Qarth, so hold no real power beyond their titles; the Ancient Guild of Spicers (it's in the name); the Thirteen, ''another'' group of Merchants; the Tourmaline Brotherhood (more merchants!). Qarth is also the location of the House of the Undying, a group of Warlocks that drink "shade-of-the-evening," which is pretty much [[Dune\|Spice from Dune]], but made from trees and not wormshit; the House of the Undying and most of its Warlocks were burnt down by Dany's dragons after they tried to steal them; they sent out some guys for revenge, but they ran into Euron where he promptly murdered them all and took their <s>spice</s> <s>nightshade</s> shade-of-the-evening. Functionally Singapore, but with a more Indo-Persian aesthetic.		*Qarth: What separates the "East" from the "Far East." It's to the East of Slaver's Bay and West of not!China/Japan, so any traffic between the Free Cities, Slaver's bay, and them, requires them to pass through Qarth. Home to a bunch of fucking weirdo Orientalist tropes that vie for power: The Pureborn, the noble descendants of ancient Qaathi Kings and Queens that fled the sacking of their cities to Qarth, so hold no real power beyond their titles; the Ancient Guild of Spicers (it's in the name); the Thirteen, ''another'' group of Merchants; the Tourmaline Brotherhood (more merchants!). Qarth is also the location of the House of the Undying, a group of Warlocks that drink "shade-of-the-evening," which is pretty much [[Dune\|Spice from Dune]], but made from trees and not wormshit; the House of the Undying and most of its Warlocks were burnt down by Dany's dragons after they tried to steal them; they sent out some guys for revenge, but they ran into Euron where he promptly murdered them all and took their <s>spice</s> <s>nightshade</s> shade-of-the-evening. Functionally Singapore, but with a more Indo-Persian aesthetic.

1d4chan>A Walrus: /* On The "Grimdarkness" of the Setting */

2023-05-26T16:40:15Z

On The "Grimdarkness" of the Setting

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	Also worth mentioning that there's reason to think that, despite the quote that began this page, the series may not actually end on [[The End Times\|100% downer note]], as Martin has said he hopes his series will end in a way akin to the Scouring of the Shire from Lord of the Rings, which, despite the name, is more of a bittersweet ending. So who knows (though this also presumes the author will actually get around to finishing the series at all).		Also worth mentioning that there's reason to think that, despite the quote that began this page, the series may not actually end on [[The End Times\|100% downer note]], as Martin has said he hopes his series will end in a way akin to the Scouring of the Shire from Lord of the Rings, which, despite the name, is more of a bittersweet ending. So who knows (though this also presumes the author will actually get around to finishing the series at all).

	In sum, whether the setting fully qualifies for "Grimdark" is a matter for debate. Probably the best way of looking at is that it is Grimdark, but in a nuanced way.		In sum, whether the setting fully qualifies for "Grimdark" is a matter for debate. Probably the best way of looking at is that it is Grimdark, but in a nuanced way and with a point.

	==See Also==		==See Also==

1d4chan>A Walrus: /* The appeal of A Song of Ice And Fire */

2023-05-26T07:11:08Z

The appeal of A Song of Ice And Fire

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:11, 26 May 2023
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	Exactly what catches the eyes of [[Skub\|a given fan/critic/lout who complains about how bad it is anytime the show is mentioned within earshot]] to ASOIAF and its TV adaptation varies from individual to individual. Still, there's a couple of major draws.		Exactly what catches the eyes of [[Skub\|a given fan/critic/lout who complains about how bad it is anytime the show is mentioned within earshot]] to ASOIAF and its TV adaptation varies from individual to individual. Still, there's a couple of major draws.

	'''The Worldbuilding:''' The main reason why this series gets compared to [[The Lord of the Rings]], ASOIAF is literally ''drowning'' under the weight of its worldbuilding, being crammed as full of facts about fictitious regions, histories, cultures, dynasties and races as GRRM can fit it. A lot of effort is also expended on the little things, from food to ~~medicine~~. Your mileage will vary on how ''good'' that info is, but there's plenty of info in it. It is worth noting that much of the vagueness of various aspects of the world's lore comes down to the limited perspectives of each of the characters' point of view, so many places and events are often only known partially through superstition, rumors, and often second hand experiences passed down and muddled over time; all of which play quite heavily into the overall story structure of the series.		'''The Worldbuilding:''' The main reason why this series gets compared to [[The Lord of the Rings]], ASOIAF is literally ''drowning'' under the weight of its worldbuilding, being crammed as full of facts about fictitious regions, histories, cultures, dynasties and races as GRRM can fit it. A lot of effort is also expended on the little things, from food to architecture to the limits of scientific knowledge and technology. Your mileage will vary on how ''good'' that info is, but there's plenty of info in it. It is worth noting that much of the vagueness of various aspects of the world's lore comes down to the limited perspectives of each of the characters' point of view, so many places and events are often only known partially through superstition, rumors, and often second hand experiences passed down and muddled over time; all of which play quite heavily into the overall story structure of the series.

	'''A vast colorful Cast:''' A lot of works of fantasy get by with a few archetypal characters (the Young Guy out to Prove themself, the Wise Wizard, the Dark Lord, the Mischievous One, the Grizzled Veteran, the Princess, the Dwarf, etc) and maybe a guy or two which rises above this. A Song of Ice and Fire has dozens of viewpoint characters and a hundreds of secondaries each with different situations, drives, motives and quirks that make them reasonably interesting. Even if you don't like one or some of them, there are plenty of others. When they die, it often hits home. Speaking of which...		'''A vast colorful Cast:''' A lot of works of fantasy get by with a few archetypal characters (the Young Guy out to Prove themself, the Wise Wizard, the Dark Lord, the Mischievous One, the Grizzled Veteran, the Princess, the Dwarf, etc) and maybe a guy or two which rises above this. A Song of Ice and Fire has dozens of viewpoint characters and a hundreds of secondaries each with different situations, drives, motives and quirks that make them reasonably interesting. Even if you don't like one or some of them, there are plenty of others. When they die, it often hits home. Speaking of which...

1d4chan>A Walrus: /* The appeal of A Song of Ice And Fire */

2023-05-26T07:08:30Z

The appeal of A Song of Ice And Fire

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:08, 26 May 2023
Line 403:		Line 403:
	Exactly what catches the eyes of [[Skub\|a given fan/critic/lout who complains about how bad it is anytime the show is mentioned within earshot]] to ASOIAF and its TV adaptation varies from individual to individual. Still, there's a couple of major draws.		Exactly what catches the eyes of [[Skub\|a given fan/critic/lout who complains about how bad it is anytime the show is mentioned within earshot]] to ASOIAF and its TV adaptation varies from individual to individual. Still, there's a couple of major draws.

	'''The Worldbuilding:''' The main reason why this series gets compared to [[The Lord of the Rings]], ASOIAF is literally ''drowning'' under the weight of its worldbuilding, being crammed as full of facts about fictitious regions, histories, cultures, dynasties and races as GRRM can fit it. Your mileage will vary on how ''good'' that info is, but there's plenty of info in it. It is worth noting that much of the vagueness of various aspects of the world's lore comes down to the limited perspectives of each of the characters' point of view, so many places and events are often only known partially through superstition, rumors, and often second hand experiences passed down and muddled over time; all of which play quite heavily into the overall story structure of the series.		'''The Worldbuilding:''' The main reason why this series gets compared to [[The Lord of the Rings]], ASOIAF is literally ''drowning'' under the weight of its worldbuilding, being crammed as full of facts about fictitious regions, histories, cultures, dynasties and races as GRRM can fit it. A lot of effort is also expended on the little things, from food to medicine. Your mileage will vary on how ''good'' that info is, but there's plenty of info in it. It is worth noting that much of the vagueness of various aspects of the world's lore comes down to the limited perspectives of each of the characters' point of view, so many places and events are often only known partially through superstition, rumors, and often second hand experiences passed down and muddled over time; all of which play quite heavily into the overall story structure of the series.

	'''A vast colorful Cast:''' A lot of works of fantasy get by with a few archetypal characters (the Young Guy out to Prove themself, the Wise Wizard, the Dark Lord, the Mischievous One, the Grizzled Veteran, the Princess, the Dwarf, etc) and maybe a guy or two which rises above this. A Song of Ice and Fire has dozens of viewpoint characters and a hundreds of secondaries each with different situations, drives, motives and quirks that make them reasonably interesting. Even if you don't like one or some of them, there are plenty of others. When they die, it often hits home. Speaking of which...		'''A vast colorful Cast:''' A lot of works of fantasy get by with a few archetypal characters (the Young Guy out to Prove themself, the Wise Wizard, the Dark Lord, the Mischievous One, the Grizzled Veteran, the Princess, the Dwarf, etc) and maybe a guy or two which rises above this. A Song of Ice and Fire has dozens of viewpoint characters and a hundreds of secondaries each with different situations, drives, motives and quirks that make them reasonably interesting. Even if you don't like one or some of them, there are plenty of others. When they die, it often hits home. Speaking of which...

1d4chan>Rogalydondon at 04:08, 26 May 2023

2023-05-26T04:08:21Z

Show changes