Baby Monster Dilemma - Revision history

imported>Administrator: 15 revisions imported

2023-06-17T21:46:29Z

15 revisions imported

← Older revision	Revision as of 21:46, 17 June 2023
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1d4chan>Nubnuber: Nubnuber moved page The Orc Baby Dilemma to Baby Monster Dilemma

2021-12-19T20:17:03Z

Nubnuber moved page The Orc Baby Dilemma to Baby Monster Dilemma

← Older revision	Revision as of 20:17, 19 December 2021
(No difference)

1d4chan>Nubnuber at 20:16, 19 December 2021

2021-12-19T20:16:40Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:16, 19 December 2021
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	[[File:Goblin baby dilemma.png\|thumb\|This Golarion samurai opted for option #3 and is now regretting his decision.]]		[[File:Goblin baby dilemma.png\|thumb\|This Golarion samurai opted for option #3 and is now regretting his decision.]]
	The ~~'''Orc Baby Dilemma''' (more generally called the "~~'''Baby Monster Dilemma'''") is a question used to challenge the [[alignment]] of [[Paladins]] (especially to distinguish the [[Lawful Good]] from the [[Lawful Stupid]]). It sometimes refers to a contrived situation concocted by [[That Guy\|That DM]] to force a Paladin to fall.		The '''Baby Monster Dilemma''' is a question used to challenge the [[alignment]] of [[Paladins]] (especially to distinguish the [[Lawful Good]] from the [[Lawful Stupid]]). It sometimes refers to a contrived situation concocted by [[That Guy\|That DM]] to force a Paladin to fall.

	The dilemma is usually presented thus: during a raid on an Orc encampment (or some place of residence of evil creatures), the players come across an orc child. They are "forced" to make a choice of:		The dilemma is usually presented thus: during a raid on an Orc encampment (or some place of residence of evil creatures), the players come across an orc child. They are "forced" to make a choice of:

1d4chan>Piroko at 04:17, 7 December 2021

2021-12-07T04:17:40Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:17, 7 December 2021
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	# Sparing the child, risking them growing up into an evil creature, or		# Sparing the child, risking them growing up into an evil creature, or
	# Killing the child, which is frowned upon because the child isn't evil yet, or might never be.		# [[Goblin Slayer\|Killing the child]], which is frowned upon because the child isn't evil yet, or might never be.
	# The secret option: adopt the child and raise it to be a good person.		# The secret option: adopt the child and raise it to be a good person.

2603:6081:2E40:591C:6DF8:D416:19B:CDA6 at 23:46, 6 December 2021

2021-12-06T23:46:42Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:46, 6 December 2021
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	For an example of interesting outcomes, [[/co/\|Marvel Comics]] used this dilemma in the origin story of one of their oldest villains, the trickster-god Loki. Allfather Odin (a Lawful-Good superhero version of the Norse god from the ''Edda'') is fighting a war with ice giants and finds an ice-giant baby in the wreckage of a cottage. This comic-book Odin chooses option #3 above, raising the child as his own son and step-brother to Thor. Loki grows up to be a peer to his brother and other gods of Asgard, [[Eldrad\|a nasty schemer and a colossal dick]] to the superheroes of Earth, [[BBEG\|destined to be the cause of Ragnarok, the Asgardian doomsday event]]. Bad news for Odin's adventuring party, but great story hooks for Odin's player.		For an example of interesting outcomes, [[/co/\|Marvel Comics]] used this dilemma in the origin story of one of their oldest villains, the trickster-god Loki. Allfather Odin (a Lawful-Good superhero version of the Norse god from the ''Edda'') is fighting a war with ice giants and finds an ice-giant baby in the wreckage of a cottage. This comic-book Odin chooses option #3 above, raising the child as his own son and step-brother to Thor. Loki grows up to be a peer to his brother and other gods of Asgard, [[Eldrad\|a nasty schemer and a colossal dick]] to the superheroes of Earth, [[BBEG\|destined to be the cause of Ragnarok, the Asgardian doomsday event]]. Bad news for Odin's adventuring party, but great story hooks for Odin's player.

			In recent years, the Dilemma has been gradually disappearing. Partly because nowadays ''everyone'' knows about it, mostly because the whole [[Always Chaotic Evil]] concept itself is increasingly falling to the wayside. An ever-growing number of settings have orcs as normal blokes with the same capacity for good or evil as any human, so the Dilemma makes no sense there; killing a baby orc in [[Eberron]], for example, because it had evil parents would be comparable to [[What\|killing the infant child of a bank robber in real life because you think it would grow up to rob banks]]... which is to say, it would be completely batshit insane and certainly not the kind of thing a heroic Paladin would ever do. That's not even getting into the fact that, as of 5E, Paladins no longer have alignment restriction and their codes of conduct are clearly spelt out in the PH rather then left to the whims of the DM, so the Dilemma just plain ''doesn't work'' if you're playing that edition.

	== See Also ==		== See Also ==

1d4chan>Piroko: /* See Also */

2021-08-01T19:48:09Z

1d4chan>Nubnuber: Added image

2021-03-08T23:06:04Z

Added image

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:06, 8 March 2021
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			[[File:Goblin baby dilemma.png\|thumb\|This Golarion samurai opted for option #3 and is now regretting his decision.]]
	The '''Orc Baby Dilemma''' (more generally called the "'''Baby Monster Dilemma'''") is a question used to challenge the [[alignment]] of [[Paladins]] (especially to distinguish the [[Lawful Good]] from the [[Lawful Stupid]]). It sometimes refers to a contrived situation concocted by [[That Guy\|That DM]] to force a Paladin to fall.		The '''Orc Baby Dilemma''' (more generally called the "'''Baby Monster Dilemma'''") is a question used to challenge the [[alignment]] of [[Paladins]] (especially to distinguish the [[Lawful Good]] from the [[Lawful Stupid]]). It sometimes refers to a contrived situation concocted by [[That Guy\|That DM]] to force a Paladin to fall.

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	# Sparing the child, risking them growing up into an evil creature, or		# Sparing the child, risking them growing up into an evil creature, or
	# Killing the child, which is frowned upon because the child isn't evil yet, or might never be.		# Killing the child, which is frowned upon because the child isn't evil yet, or might never be.
			# The secret option: adopt the child and raise it to be a good person.

	Bonus points if the Paladin is serving a god that '''doesn't''' care too much about that baby orc being a baby - it's an orc, is therefore unclean, and is to be terminated with extreme prejudice. Even if you ignore the ''other'' implications of that, it's still [[railroading]] at its most blatant and an objectively shit form of storytelling that a poor DM can use to shoehorn the paladin into falling, no matter which they pick. However, a good DM/party can present/make a choice that isn't a false dichotomy, and has a fair chance of leading to a good outcome (or at least an interesting one).		Bonus points if the Paladin is serving a god that '''doesn't''' care too much about that baby orc being a baby - it's an orc, is therefore unclean, and is to be terminated with extreme prejudice. Even if you ignore the ''other'' implications of that, it's still [[railroading]] at its most blatant and an objectively shit form of storytelling that a poor DM can use to shoehorn the paladin into falling, no matter which they pick. However, a good DM/party can present/make a choice that isn't a false dichotomy, and has a fair chance of leading to a good outcome (or at least an interesting one).

	For an example of interesting outcomes, [[/co/\|Marvel Comics]] used this dilemma in the origin story of one of their oldest villains, the trickster-god Loki. Allfather Odin (a Lawful-Good superhero version of the Norse god from the ''Edda'') is fighting a war with ice giants and finds an ice-giant baby in the wreckage of a cottage. This comic-book Odin chooses option #1 above, raising the child as his own son and step-brother to Thor. Loki grows up to be a peer to his brother and other gods of Asgard, [[Eldrad\|a nasty schemer and a colossal dick]] to the superheroes of Earth, [[BBEG\|destined to be the cause of Ragnarok, the Asgardian doomsday event]]. Bad news for Odin's adventuring party, but great story hooks for Odin's player.		For an example of interesting outcomes, [[/co/\|Marvel Comics]] used this dilemma in the origin story of one of their oldest villains, the trickster-god Loki. Allfather Odin (a Lawful-Good superhero version of the Norse god from the ''Edda'') is fighting a war with ice giants and finds an ice-giant baby in the wreckage of a cottage. This comic-book Odin chooses option #3 above, raising the child as his own son and step-brother to Thor. Loki grows up to be a peer to his brother and other gods of Asgard, [[Eldrad\|a nasty schemer and a colossal dick]] to the superheroes of Earth, [[BBEG\|destined to be the cause of Ragnarok, the Asgardian doomsday event]]. Bad news for Odin's adventuring party, but great story hooks for Odin's player.

	== See Also ==		== See Also ==

	* [[Always Chaotic Evil]], the source of the dilemma.		* [[Always Chaotic Evil]], the source of the dilemma.
	* [[Lamia child]], in which the character chooses option number 3~~: adopt the child~~.		* [[Lamia child]], in which the character chooses option number 3.
	* [[Red Dragon Inn]], in which the character Serena is another example of option #3.		* [[Red Dragon Inn]], in which the character Serena is another example of option #3.

	[[Category:Roleplaying]]		[[Category:Roleplaying]]

37.120.192.133 at 03:57, 25 June 2020

2020-06-25T03:57:11Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:57, 25 June 2020
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	The '''Orc Baby Dilemma''' (more generally called the "'''Baby Monster Dilemma'''") is a question used to challenge the [[alignment]] of [[Paladins]] (especially to distinguish the [[Lawful Good]] from the [[Lawful Stupid]]). It sometimes refers to a contrived situation concocted by [[That Guy\|That DM]] to force a Paladin to fall.		The '''Orc Baby Dilemma''' (more generally called the "'''Baby Monster Dilemma'''") is a question used to challenge the [[alignment]] of [[Paladins]] (especially to distinguish the [[Lawful Good]] from the [[Lawful Stupid]]). It sometimes refers to a contrived situation concocted by [[That Guy\|That DM]] to force a Paladin to fall.

	The dilemma is usually presented thus: during a raid on an Orc encampment (or some place of residence of evil creatures), the players come across an orc child. They are forced to make a choice of:		The dilemma is usually presented thus: during a raid on an Orc encampment (or some place of residence of evil creatures), the players come across an orc child. They are "forced" to make a choice of:

	# Sparing the child, risking ~~him or her~~ growing up into an evil creature, or		# Sparing the child, risking them growing up into an evil creature, or
	# Killing the child, which is frowned upon because the child isn't evil yet, or might never be.		# Killing the child, which is frowned upon because the child isn't evil yet, or might never be.

	A poor DM can use ~~any choice~~ to shoehorn the paladin into falling, ~~while~~ a good party can make a choice that isn't a false dichotomy and has a fair chance of leading to a good outcome (or at least an interesting one).		Bonus points if the Paladin is serving a god that '''doesn't''' care too much about that baby orc being a baby - it's an orc, is therefore unclean, and is to be terminated with extreme prejudice. Even if you ignore the ''other'' implications of that, it's still [[railroading]] at its most blatant and an objectively shit form of storytelling that a poor DM can use to shoehorn the paladin into falling, no matter which they pick. However, a good DM/party can present/make a choice that isn't a false dichotomy, and has a fair chance of leading to a good outcome (or at least an interesting one).

	Marvel Comics used this dilemma in the origin story of one of their oldest villains, the trickster-god Loki. Allfather Odin (a Lawful-Good superhero version of the Norse god from the ''Edda'') is fighting a war with ice giants and finds an ice-giant baby in the wreckage of a cottage. This comic-book Odin chooses option #1 above, raising the child as his own son and step-brother to Thor. Loki grows up to be a peer to his brother and other gods of Asgard, [[Eldrad\|a nasty schemer]] and a ~~[[BBEG\|~~colossal dick to the superheroes of Earth]], destined to be the cause of the Asgardian doomsday event. Bad news for Odin's adventuring party, but great story hooks for Odin's player.		For an example of interesting outcomes, [[/co/\|Marvel Comics]] used this dilemma in the origin story of one of their oldest villains, the trickster-god Loki. Allfather Odin (a Lawful-Good superhero version of the Norse god from the ''Edda'') is fighting a war with ice giants and finds an ice-giant baby in the wreckage of a cottage. This comic-book Odin chooses option #1 above, raising the child as his own son and step-brother to Thor. Loki grows up to be a peer to his brother and other gods of Asgard, [[Eldrad\|a nasty schemer and a colossal dick]] to the superheroes of Earth, [[BBEG\|destined to be the cause of Ragnarok, the Asgardian doomsday event]]. Bad news for Odin's adventuring party, but great story hooks for Odin's player.

	~~Of note is sometimes a Paladin can be serving a god that '''doesn't''' care too much about that baby orc being a baby. It's an orc, is therefore unclean, and is to be terminated with extreme prejudice~~.

	== See Also ==		== See Also ==

1d4chan>FlintTD at 00:25, 5 May 2020

2020-05-05T00:25:11Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:25, 5 May 2020
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	The '''Orc Baby Dilemma''' (more generally called the "~~baby monster dilemma~~") is a question used to challenge the [[alignment]] of [[Paladins]] (especially to distinguish the [[Lawful Good]] from the [[Lawful Stupid]]). It sometimes refers to a contrived situation concocted by [[That Guy\|That DM]] to force a Paladin to fall.		The '''Orc Baby Dilemma''' (more generally called the "'''Baby Monster Dilemma'''") is a question used to challenge the [[alignment]] of [[Paladins]] (especially to distinguish the [[Lawful Good]] from the [[Lawful Stupid]]). It sometimes refers to a contrived situation concocted by [[That Guy\|That DM]] to force a Paladin to fall.

	The dilemma is usually presented thus: during a raid on an Orc encampment (or some place of residence of evil creatures), the players come across an orc child. They are forced to make a choice of:		The dilemma is usually presented thus: during a raid on an Orc encampment (or some place of residence of evil creatures), the players come across an orc child. They are forced to make a choice of:

1d4chan>Saarlacfunkel: /* See Also */

2019-10-20T11:57:50Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:48, 1 August 2021
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	* [[Always Chaotic Evil]], the source of the dilemma.		* [[Always Chaotic Evil]], the source of the dilemma.
			* [[Goblin Slayer\|What Dilemma?]]
	* [[Lamia child]], in which the character chooses option number 3.		* [[Lamia child]], in which the character chooses option number 3.
	* [[Red Dragon Inn]], in which the character Serena is another example of option #3.		* [[Red Dragon Inn]], in which the character Serena is another example of option #3.

	[[Category:Roleplaying]]		[[Category:Roleplaying]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:57, 20 October 2019
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	== See Also ==		== See Also ==

			* [[Always Chaotic Evil]], the source of the dilemma.
	* [[Lamia child]], in which the character chooses option number 3: adopt the child.		* [[Lamia child]], in which the character chooses option number 3: adopt the child.
	* [[Red Dragon Inn]], in which the character Serena is another example of option #3.		* [[Red Dragon Inn]], in which the character Serena is another example of option #3.

	[[Category:Roleplaying]]		[[Category:Roleplaying]]