D&D Optimization - Revision history

95.167.183.120 at 13:48, 3 July 2025

2025-07-03T13:48:07Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:48, 3 July 2025
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	The primary way characters do damage is by attacking (go figure.) And this leads to our fundamental philosophy of optimization in 4e: +1 to hit is everything. 4e is seemingly an extraordinary narrow game, there's really nothing else that's relevant. All of a character's powers are keyed off scoring hits. If you can't hit, your powers are worthless (again, there is an exception, in the form of the 'pacifist cleric', but let's focus on the other possible characters, some 99.9% of the possibilities).		The primary way characters do damage is by attacking (go figure.) And this leads to our fundamental philosophy of optimization in 4e: +1 to hit is everything. 4e is seemingly an extraordinary narrow game, there's really nothing else that's relevant. All of a character's powers are keyed off scoring hits. If you can't hit, your powers are worthless (again, there is an exception, in the form of the 'pacifist cleric', but let's focus on the other possible characters, some 99.9% of the possibilities).

	How bad is it? WoTC created a feat, "Weapon Expertise", that grants, just that, a +1 to hit at low levels (more at high levels, but that's besides the point). This feat, this simple +1 to hit, is so dominatingly powerful that it's considered a 'feat tax', as all characters, even non-optimized ones, MUST take this feat. Many campaigns simply house rule "all characters get weapon expertise for free", because, in fact, all characters must take it at some point, the sooner the better.		How bad is it? WoTC created a feat, "Weapon Expertise", that grants just that, a +1 to hit at low levels (more at high levels, but that's besides the point). This feat, this simple +1 to hit, is so dominatingly powerful that it's considered a 'feat tax', as all characters, even non-optimized ones, MUST take this feat. Many campaigns simply house rule "all characters get weapon expertise for free", because, in fact, all characters must take it at some point, the sooner the better.

	Someone ignorant of the system might think +1 matters more at low levels than at high, but, 4e uses a treadmill system. A first level character might have +7 to hit, and will attack monsters with a defense of 18 (i.e., they'll have a 50% chance of hitting). A 20th level character might have a +24 to hit, and this might sound better, but the game is designed to keep characters on a treadmill at all times. A 20th level character will fight monsters with a defense of 35, and so still have a 50% chance of hit.		Someone ignorant of the system might think +1 matters more at low levels than at high, but, 4e uses a treadmill system. A first level character might have +7 to hit, and will attack monsters with a defense of 18 (i.e., they'll have a 50% chance of hitting). A 20th level character might have a +24 to hit, and this might sound better, but the game is designed to keep characters on a treadmill at all times. A 20th level character will fight monsters with a defense of 35, and so still have a 50% chance of hit.
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	=== Rogues ===		=== Rogues ===
	Use Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, and Haste, and get Alchemist's Fire, Acid, or Holy Water (for against fiends). You should be able to get a massive amount of touch attacks every round, able to hit on a 2+, and be able to multiply your sneak attack damage by 6 or so consistently. Alternately, get a wizard to polymorph you into a Hydra -- enjoy having '''7 to 15''' sneak attacks per round. Avoid constructs, undead, and dark spaces -- a true rogue knows that shadowy alleyways and misty-filled corridors will prevent him from sneak attacking due to concealment, so restrict your operations to brightly lit rooms and meadows.		Use Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, and Haste, and get Alchemist's Fire, Acid, or Holy Water (for against fiends). You should be able to get a massive amount of touch attacks every round, able to hit on a 2+, and be able to multiply your sneak attack damage by 6 or so consistently. Alternately, get a wizard to polymorph you into a Hydra -- enjoy having '''7 to 15''' sneak attacks per round. Avoid constructs, undead, and dark spaces -- a true rogue knows that shadowy alleyways and misty-filled corridors will prevent him from sneak attacking due to concealment, so restrict your operations to brightly lit rooms and meadows. If you want to use dark spaces - get some way to see in darkness without using a light source - otherwise, darkness is detrimental.

	=== Samurai ===		=== Samurai ===
	You picked a Samurai, widely regarded as the absolute worst full BAB class in the game, the sheer amount of suck you bring to the table is so great that you hurt your party by just being there. There is no optimizing this class out of the tier 6 pit of shame it inhabits. If your DM forced you to play a Samurai, you can rules-lawyer your way out of this hole with the definition of "Daisho Proficency." That doesn't have to be the weeaboo bastard-sword-plus-shortsword combo; play a dwarf samurai and getyourself dual battleaxes, or a battleaxe/warhammer combo for your daisho. Also, "Daisho Proficiency" isn't "Katana Proficiency and Wakazashi Proficiency," so you should be able to fast-talk your DM into allowing "Daisho Weapon Focus" and "Improved Critical: Daisho" and so on, giving you two feats each time for the price of one. Also: use your bastard-sword/katana two-handed for the extra damage, then Quick Draw your shortsword/wakazashi to finish your routines. If your DM bitches, point out that you were FORCED to play a Samurai, so you had to get creative.		You picked a Samurai, widely regarded as the absolute worst full BAB class in the game, the sheer amount of suck you bring to the table is so great that you hurt your party by just being there. There is no optimizing this class out of the tier 6 pit of shame it inhabits. If your DM forced you to play a Samurai, you can rules-lawyer your way out of this hole with the definition of "Daisho Proficency". That doesn't have to be the weeaboo bastard-sword-plus-shortsword combo; play a dwarf samurai and getyourself dual battleaxes, or a battleaxe/warhammer combo for your daisho. Also, "Daisho Proficiency" isn't "Katana Proficiency and Wakazashi Proficiency", so you should be able to fast-talk your DM into allowing "Daisho Weapon Focus" and "Improved Critical: Daisho" and so on, giving you two feats each time for the price of one. Also: use your bastard-sword/katana two-handed for the extra damage, then Quick Draw your shortsword/wakazashi to finish your routines. If your DM bitches, point out that you were FORCED to play a Samurai, so you had to get creative.

	=== Sorcerers ===		=== Sorcerers ===
	Not the most optimized caster class for pew-pew or utility spells, being a Sorcerer means Charisma isn't your dump stat, so abuse the hell out of the Leadership skill. With Planar Binding series, enjoy your horde of sexy marilith underlings. That prestige class and familiar advice in wizards is even more important with sorcerers. The only point in taking Sorcerer levels, apart from getting spellcasting of course, is to advance your familiar. But Sorcerers get access to many alternate class features that replace your familiars, so often there is not point not to take as many Prestige Classes that advance tour spellcasting as you can get your hands on. Mindbender makes a great one-level dip for example, and Fatespinner isn't bad at high levels. Then there are many prestige classes which are terrible for wizards but are awesome for sorcerers: a good example is the Sand Shaper, who loses a level in spellcasting and whose class abilities aren't that good on a wizard - but from level one Sand Shapers gain several dozens spells that they can immediately add to their spells known list, and this is obviously a huge deal for a sorcerer.		Not the most optimized caster class for pew-pew or utility spells, being a Sorcerer means Charisma isn't your dump stat, so abuse the hell out of the Leadership skill. With Planar Binding series, enjoy your horde of sexy marilith underlings. That prestige class and familiar advice in wizards is even more important with sorcerers. The only point in taking Sorcerer levels, apart from getting spellcasting of course, is to advance your familiar. But Sorcerers get access to many alternate class features that replace your familiars, so often there is not point not to take as many Prestige Classes that advance tour spellcasting as you can get your hands on. Mindbender makes a great one-level dip for example, and Fatespinner isn't bad at high levels. Then there are many prestige classes which are terrible for wizards but are awesome for sorcerers: a good example is the Sand Shaper, who loses a level in spellcasting and whose class abilities aren't that good on a wizard - but from level one Sand Shapers gain several dozens spells that they can immediately add to their spells known list, and this is obviously a huge deal for a sorcerer. Consider idea of being '''Dragonwrought''' [[Kobold]] - since they can take "For Epic Dragons Only" rules - what, when properly utilized, can buff them to [[Tier System\|Tier 1]].

	=== Wizards ===		=== Wizards ===
	; Golems Golems Golems		; Golems Golems Golems
	The market price of a golem is increased by 5000 GP per additional HD and 50,000 GP per a size increase. With the Craft Construct feat, you only have to pay half cost, and as a result, you can create a 54 hit dice iron golem for 195,000 gold pieces; it will have 337 HP, keep its immunity to magic, have a BAB of +36 and have a DC 37 poison breath weapon. For reference, a level 20 character can be expected to have 760,000 gold pieces, easily letting you afford 3 of these bad boys, along with a headband of intellect +6 and a few miscellaneous items. Lower level characters can triple advance weaker constructs, to similar results.		The market price of a golem is increased by 5000 GP per additional HD and 50,000 GP per a size increase. With the Craft Construct feat, you only have to pay half cost, and as a result, you can create a 54 hit dice iron golem for 195,000 gold pieces; it will have 337 HP, keep its immunity to magic, have a BAB of +36 and have a DC 37 poison breath weapon. For reference, a level 20 character can be expected to have 760,000 gold pieces, easily letting you afford 3 of these bad boys, along with a headband of intellect +6 and a few miscellaneous items. Lower level characters can triple advance weaker constructs, to similar results.

			And those constructs can be equipped with armor and weapons, being experienced with Heavy Armor and Martial Weapons (if not Exotic Weapons). Armor (e.g. Full Plate +1, [[D%26D_Optimization#3.5E_Gear_titbits\|bought for discount via resising]]) can greatly boost their AC (if you still don't have enough AC, add Tower Shield); weapons upscaled to their size] allow them to do more damage, while having unprecedented battlefield control (e.g. Ranged weapon like Crossbow, or Reach weapon like Lucerne Hammer; Slams if enemy is up close). Huge Lucerne Hammer would have 3d6 x4 Piercing damage and 30 feet Reach (15 feet long, +15 feet Golem's hands; Huge Glaive is 3d8 x3 Slashing). [[D%26D_Optimization#3.5E_Gear_titbits\|Light Crossbow of +2 size - Huge Size - is still man-portable]]; so the big "Huge-Golem-Portable" versions are Colossal Light Crossbow (6d6 19–20/×2 Piercing 195.3125 feet range) and Gargantuan Heavy Crossbow (4d8 234.375 feet range 19–20/×2 Piercing). All that results in, basically, walking tank.

	;Broken Spells		;Broken Spells
	* Forcecage, a level 7 spell which costs 1500 gp to cast (and also allows NO saving throw and NO spell resistance, imprisoning any creature of 20x20 size or less in an indestructible force barrier. Leave an Acid Fog and Dimensional Anchor spell on it and teleport away, kills nearly anything with no save allowed, but that's beside the point).		* Forcecage, a level 7 spell which costs 1500 gp to cast (and also allows NO saving throw and NO spell resistance, imprisoning any creature of 20x20 size or less in an indestructible force barrier. Leave an Acid Fog and Dimensional Anchor spell on it and teleport away, kills nearly anything with no save allowed, but that's beside the point).
			* Polymorph Any Object has lots of uses. Among them, you could permanently turn a small piece of iron into mountain of any materials - including iron (massive solid cube, massive iron dust pile, or massive pile of 1-lb ingots) and other things (gunpowder bombs, molten iron, etc). There's '''no upper limit to size of thing you can create with Polymorph Any Object'''; even in worst case scenario, you could at least make something of Titanic size (909090 feet; 181818 squares). You could use it for crafts/construction, sell it, sacrifice it to god, entomb something in it, or drop it on enemy by conjuring it while flying. Dropping such iron mountain from terminal velocity is utterly devastating; RAI that's [[Exterminatus\|comparable to or even stronger than nuke]]; RAW it's [[Dakka\|'''absurdly massive number''']] of projectiles (e.g. 358345310 tiny 1-lb ingots or 17917265 flechettes - for merely 909090 feet pile; '''actual mountain-sized''' pile is a lot bigger), each for 20d6. That's not even going to idea of creating mountain-sized amount of molten iron, or mountain-sized gunpowder bomb.

	;Familiars		;Familiars
	Its smart to prestige class out with a class that grants full spell casting progression. This however comes at the expense of your familiar's advancement. To combat this there are a decent alternate class features you can use to replace your familiar in dragon magazine. However a familiar that advances is valuable in both fluff and [https://web.archive.org/web/20220926174136/http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/familiars-handbook.html utility]. So after that you take the [https://web.archive.org/web/20131025204012/http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/obtain-familiar--2078/ Obtain Familiar feat].		Its smart to prestige class out with a class that grants full spell casting progression. This however comes at the expense of your familiar's advancement. To combat this there are a decent alternate class features you can use to replace your familiar in dragon magazine. However a familiar that advances is valuable in both fluff and [https://web.archive.org/web/20220926174136/http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/familiars-handbook.html utility]. So after that you take the [https://web.archive.org/web/20131025204012/http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/obtain-familiar--2078/ Obtain Familiar feat].

	If you're in Pathfinder, take the Siege Mage archetype, which is a Wizard archetype that replaces the standard Wizard's small animal familiar for a magic cannon. By level 7, you should have enough money to afford a Fiend's Mouth Cannon, and be able to cast all the spells needed to carry a siege weapon with you anywhere you go, whether that be the bathroom or swimming pools: Floating Disc, Shrink Object, Levitate, etc. In combat, cast ''Unseen Servant'' to act as your cannon crew, so you're free to cast spells. The Fiend's Mouth cannon does 8d6, or 14d6 with explosive ammo. At level 13, take the "Vital Strike" feat to double damage for any one weapon attack roll, making it 28d6 damage. And this is before enhancement bonuses like Enlarge. Combine with the golems above to build a robocop body around your pet cannon.		If you're in Pathfinder, take the Siege Mage archetype, which is a Wizard archetype that replaces the standard Wizard's small animal familiar for a magic cannon. By level 7, you should have enough money to afford a Fiend's Mouth Cannon, and be able to cast all the spells needed to carry a siege weapon with you anywhere you go, whether that be the bathroom or swimming pools: Floating Disc, Shrink Object, Levitate, etc. In combat, cast ''Unseen Servant'' to act as your cannon crew, so you're free to cast spells. The Fiend's Mouth cannon does 8d6, or 14d6 with explosive ammo. At level 13, take the "Vital Strike" feat to double damage for any one weapon attack roll, making it 28d6 damage. And this is before enhancement bonuses like Enlarge. Combine with the golems above to build a robocop body around your pet cannon.

			; Clone rising
			You can use ''Clone'' to create inert body of very strong monster - and then, turn it into Undead (especially great with powerful Undead, like "Create Undead" or "Create Greater Undead"), or otherwise make it "live". E.G. Undead Tarrasquenote/Great Wyrm/Devastation Vermin/Hecatoncheires/etc, with a robust template (e.g. Shadow/Spectre/Wraith/Devourer), for a measly 1000 GP per spellcasting renewal (chump change by the time you can cast the spells involved). Do it on secret private demiplane, so no one would interfere.

			And if even the Undead Devourer Tarrasque doesn't satisfy your needs? Ask a deity of matching alignment for piece of flesh for cloning (he got great regeneration anyways, so why not). Then, animate the cloned body. E.G. if Evil spellcaster contacted Evil deity and explained his plan, he would get reply of "Go for it. What a great plan. I would like to enjoy the resulting carnage.".

			=== 3.5E Gear titbits ===
			* For polearm build, Lucerne Hammer from Arms and Equipment Guide can be useful. 12 GP, 2d4, x4 crit, 10 lb, Reach Large weapon is better than halberds and glaives.
			* There were experiments with upscaling and downscaling weapons. Weapon can be increased or decreased step by step (Small = Light -> Medium = One-Handed -> Large = Two-Handed -> Huge = Can't Wield). Such resulted in variety of experimental weapons.
			** One-Handed Two-Handed Swords. Greataxe can be downscaled into 1d10 9.6 lb 16 GP One-Handed weapon, or 1d8 7.68 lb 12.8 GP Light Weapon. Greatsword can be downscaled into [1d10 or 2d4] 40 GP 6.4 lb if One-Handed, or [1d8 or 2d3] 32 GP 5.12 lb if Light. Both are better than most One-Handed and Light weapons.
			** Two-Handed Bastard Swords. Upscale Bastard Sword and Dwarven War-Axe by one size, into "true" Two-Handed weapon with 2d8 damage, what works as Martial weapon when held two-handed (who cares, what it can't be held one-handed anymore?).
			** Anti-Materiel Crossbows. Crossbows have their own damage table. Light Crossbow can be upscaled 2 times into Two-Handed 3d6 125-feet range 78.75 GP 9 lb weapon; Heavy Crossbow can be turned into Two-Handed 2d8 150-feet range 75 GP 12 lb weapon.
			** Other oversized ranged weapons. Sling can be upscaled 2 times into Two-Handed 1d8 (1d6 with rocks) 78,125-feet range 0-lb free Two-Handed weapon. Sling and oversized sling are, basically, your ranged emergency weapon: they're free, weightless, and ammo is plenty.
			** Altering dice. That's where bug-use starts. 2d4 and 1d8 increase into 2d6; 2d6 decreases into 2d4 or 1d8; so, 2d4 and 1d8 are equivalent. You could increase and decrease a weapon, to turn it from 1d8 to 2d4 (what is already helpful). So in theory, you could design weapons what have same amount of nominal size but different dice amounts (e.g. 1d12 = 2d6 = 4d3 = 12d1), by repeatedly increasing and decreasing weapon's size while choosing how dice look like (e.g. 1d12 > ''2d4'' > 4d3 > ''8d1'' > 12d1; or barring intermediate decreases, 1d12 > 2d6 > 4d3 > 12d1).
			* By default, magic Armor can re-size and re-fit for whoever is trying to wear it, changing it's size and shape as needed. So it can, for example, resize from Tiny Humanoid shaped to Colossal Nonhumanoid shaped and back. Armor for Tiny Humanoid creatures costs less than big armor (only special cursed armor can't do this). So you can buy/craft magic armor set for tiny creature, re-size it and wear it. That effectively allows allows for discount of high-tier armor (e.g. full plate), armor made of exotic materials, and armor for big creatures. For example, normal Full Plate costs 1500gp - and Tiny Full Plate +1 costs 1750gp, and it re-sizes to wearer's size.
			* One way to make double-wielding worthwhile?
			** Use Two-Handed weapon, ''and'' use another weapon held in body part ''other'' than hand, as Off-Hand weapon. For example - swing Greatsword, and then swing spikes on your armor.
			** Another method, is to alter anatomy of your character by adding more hands - such as with magical arms (if you can replace old arms with golem arms - why not have ''four'' of such arms) or body-altering spells; wield ''two'' Two-Handed weapons (e.g. Greatsword + Greatsword), for overall higher chance what ''at least one of them'' will hit. Also ask GM, what happens if you quadruple-wield weapons, or grab weapon with 4 hands.

	==Optimization in Pathfinder==		==Optimization in Pathfinder==

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1d4chan>Nubnuber: /* See Also */

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1d4chan>Groggarioth: /* Optimization in 3.5 */

2018-02-13T17:08:09Z

Optimization in 3.5

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	If you're in Pathfinder, take the Siege Mage archetype, which is a Wizard archetype that replaces the standard Wizard's small animal familiar for a magic cannon. By level 7, you should have enough money to afford a Fiend's Mouth Cannon, and be able to cast all the spells needed to carry a siege weapon with you anywhere you go, whether that be the bathroom or swimming pools: Floating Disc, Shrink Object, Levitate, etc. In combat, cast ''Unseen Servant'' to act as your cannon crew, so you're free to cast spells. The Fiend's Mouth cannon does 8d6, or 14d6 with explosive ammo. At level 13, take the "Vital Strike" feat to double damage for any one weapon attack roll, making it 28d6 damage. And this is before enhancement bonuses like Enlarge. Combine with the golems above to build a robocop body around your pet cannon.		If you're in Pathfinder, take the Siege Mage archetype, which is a Wizard archetype that replaces the standard Wizard's small animal familiar for a magic cannon. By level 7, you should have enough money to afford a Fiend's Mouth Cannon, and be able to cast all the spells needed to carry a siege weapon with you anywhere you go, whether that be the bathroom or swimming pools: Floating Disc, Shrink Object, Levitate, etc. In combat, cast ''Unseen Servant'' to act as your cannon crew, so you're free to cast spells. The Fiend's Mouth cannon does 8d6, or 14d6 with explosive ammo. At level 13, take the "Vital Strike" feat to double damage for any one weapon attack roll, making it 28d6 damage. And this is before enhancement bonuses like Enlarge. Combine with the golems above to build a robocop body around your pet cannon.

			==Optimization in Pathfinder==

			===Alchemists===

			;Vivisectionists
			*An Alchemist Archetype that loses the Alchemists ability to throw bombs in exchange for Sneak Attack. This is extra nasty in combination with the Feral Mutagen discovery (that gives you a bite and two claw attacks when you hulk out on Mutagen) and the fact that an Alchemist has both Invisibility & Greater Invisibility on their spell list. Mix this even further with the Beastmorph Archetype, which eventually gains the ability to make a full attack after charging, and add Rake damage to those natural attacks. There's not much that can outright survive that much focused damage, while the Alchemist can likely tank a round or two with Natural armor bonuses from Barkskin & Mutagens.

	==See Also==		==See Also==

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rvv

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1d4chan>Talon of Anathrax: /* Sorcerers */

2017-10-27T18:40:49Z

Sorcerers

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	=== Sorcerers ===		=== Sorcerers ===
	Not the most optimized caster class for pew-pew or utility spells, being a Sorcerer means Charisma isn't your dump stat, so abuse the hell out of the Leadership skill. With Planar Binding series, enjoy your horde of sexy marilith underlings. That prestige class and familiar advice in wizards is even more important with sorcerers.		Not the most optimized caster class for pew-pew or utility spells, being a Sorcerer means Charisma isn't your dump stat, so abuse the hell out of the Leadership skill. With Planar Binding series, enjoy your horde of sexy marilith underlings. That prestige class and familiar advice in wizards is even more important with sorcerers. The only point in taking Sorcerer levels, apart from getting spellcasting of course, is to advance your familiar. But Sorcerers get access to many alternate class features that replace your familiars, so often there is not point not to take as many Prestige Classes that advance tour spellcasting as you can get your hands on. Mindbender makes a great one-level dip for example, and Fatespinner isn't bad at high levels. Then there are many prestige classes which are terrible for wizards but are awesome for sorcerers: a good example is the Sand Shaper, who loses a level in spellcasting and whose class abilities aren't that good on a wizard - but from level one Sand Shapers gain several dozens spells that they can immediately add to their spells known list, and this is obviously a huge deal for a sorcerer.

	=== Wizards ===		=== Wizards ===

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 (Everything in this page is Aspberger bait, btw. Don't take it too seriously.)
-  tramadol hcl para que sirve - tramadol 100mg high
+==Optimization in 3.5==
 ==See Also==

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	* [[Pun-Pun]]		* [[Pun-Pun]]
	* [[Tarrasque#How to Kill A Tarrasque in 20 Easy Levels\|How to Kill A Tarrasque in 20 Easy Levels]]		* [[Tarrasque#How to Kill A Tarrasque in 20 Easy Levels\|How to Kill A Tarrasque in 20 Easy Levels]]
	* [http://community.wizards.com/wiki/Dnd:CharOp/Index_of_Class_Guides Wizards of the Coast's very own Charop collection for 4e]		* [http://community.wizards.com/wiki/Dnd:CharOp/Index_of_Class_Guides Wizards of the Coast's very own Charop collection for 4e] (LINK BROKEN!)
	* Wizard's of the Coast CharOp library for 3e and 3.5e (links broken)		* Wizard's of the Coast CharOp library for 3e and 3.5e (links broken)