Detect Evil - Revision history

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2023-06-20T17:14:17Z

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1d4chan>Blowthemandown: /* See Also */

2022-03-25T22:31:00Z

1d4chan>Tsabo7: /* The Otherside of the Coin: The obvious counterargument */

2022-03-01T04:08:29Z

The Otherside of the Coin: The obvious counterargument

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:08, 1 March 2022
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	DMs reading this should absolutely give their paladin players these opportunities when the party gets some downtime between adventures. Remember; paladins do not really covet wealth. So long as they save souls and stay Lawful Good, their big reward in the Upper Planes is already there waiting on them. The more souls they save, the more friends they'll have up there, and probably get even better promotions for it (just as devils get them for damning more souls).		DMs reading this should absolutely give their paladin players these opportunities when the party gets some downtime between adventures. Remember; paladins do not really covet wealth. So long as they save souls and stay Lawful Good, their big reward in the Upper Planes is already there waiting on them. The more souls they save, the more friends they'll have up there, and probably get even better promotions for it (just as devils get them for damning more souls).

	==The ~~Otherside~~ of the Coin: The obvious counterargument==		==The Other Side of the Coin: The obvious counterargument==
	Redeeming the degenerate and base servants of Evil is all [[Noblebright]] and good, but consider the parable of the soiled city upon the hill that was the city of Sodom and it's twin sister-city Gomorrah. Sodom was a wicked and perverse city inhabited largely by ordinary people, who were mundane in their wickedness for the most part; with the notable exception of the greater sins of their society; and they could have perhaps been delivered from evil and redeemed if they truly desired it.		Redeeming the degenerate and base servants of Evil is all [[Noblebright]] and good, but consider the parable of the soiled city upon the hill that was the city of Sodom and it's twin sister-city Gomorrah. Sodom was a wicked and perverse city inhabited largely by ordinary people, who were mundane in their wickedness for the most part; with the notable exception of the greater sins of their society; and they could have perhaps been delivered from evil and redeemed if they truly desired it.

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	Of course, the oft quoted "whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster" comes to mind here, as such a merciless attitude can hardly be considered as appropriate for a Lawful Good character (or a purely Good character of any stripe for that matter), but that can be considered another limitation of the traditional Lawful/Chaotic-Good/Evil [[Alignment]] system. Not to mention that real-world philosophies of ethics constantly debate over these points through the schools of Consequentialism and Deontology. At worst, such a character may devolve into an especially weird form of Lawful Evil that is somehow aligned against Evil, but realistically, such a character would either end up outright defecting or dying alone without support from their former Good patrons when they are exiled for their transgressions against moral decency. Mind you this is something to keep in mind only for the pure Edgelords of Law, these points in moderation can do wonders to alleviate the problems of [[Stupid Good]].		Of course, the oft quoted "whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster" comes to mind here, as such a merciless attitude can hardly be considered as appropriate for a Lawful Good character (or a purely Good character of any stripe for that matter), but that can be considered another limitation of the traditional Lawful/Chaotic-Good/Evil [[Alignment]] system. Not to mention that real-world philosophies of ethics constantly debate over these points through the schools of Consequentialism and Deontology. At worst, such a character may devolve into an especially weird form of Lawful Evil that is somehow aligned against Evil, but realistically, such a character would either end up outright defecting or dying alone without support from their former Good patrons when they are exiled for their transgressions against moral decency. Mind you this is something to keep in mind only for the pure Edgelords of Law, these points in moderation can do wonders to alleviate the problems of [[Stupid Good]].

	~~In short: LAW FOR THE LAW GOD~~! ~~GOOD FOR THE GOOD THRONE~~!		TLDR; your god isn't going to sweat over Evil getting a few extra [[Tanar'ri#Least_Tanar.27ri\|Manes]]/[[Baatezu#Inside_the_Hierarchy\|Lemures]] in the long run, don't worry about being [[Doom\|knee-deep in the dead]], at least not until you're [[Blackguard\|functionally indistinguishable from them.]]

			[[Khorne\|Law for the Law god! Justice for the Throne of Justice! Let the multiverse '''BURN'''!]]

	==See Also==		==See Also==

1d4chan>Saarlacfunkel: /* The Moral Dilemna (or, Why Paladins Can't Actually Just Slaughter All Evil As Soon As They Detect It) */

2022-02-26T13:16:16Z

The Moral Dilemna (or, Why Paladins Can't Actually Just Slaughter All Evil As Soon As They Detect It)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:16, 26 February 2022
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	And finally, just talk to the player. Explain how the behavior is disruptive. People play games to have fun. The main purpose of paladins having access to Detect Evil is so that they don't blow their Smites on immune targets. Start there and work up.		And finally, just talk to the player. Explain how the behavior is disruptive. People play games to have fun. The main purpose of paladins having access to Detect Evil is so that they don't blow their Smites on immune targets. Start there and work up.

	=The Moral Dilemna (or, Why Paladins Can't Actually Just Slaughter All Evil As Soon As They Detect It)=		==The Moral Dilemna (or, Why Paladins Can't Actually Just Slaughter All Evil As Soon As They Detect It)==
	Let's say your paladin uses ''detect evil'' and realizes half the seedy tavern the PCs are in is some lesser degrees of evil, along with maybe a few "darker" spots from those who are tapping more directly into dark powers. If you think your paladin should start drawing a sword and mowing down folks, you just broke your alignment as well as your paladin code, and it's gonna take a thick rug to pray for that ''atonement'' later. Why?		Let's say your paladin uses ''detect evil'' and realizes half the seedy tavern the PCs are in is some lesser degrees of evil, along with maybe a few "darker" spots from those who are tapping more directly into dark powers. If you think your paladin should start drawing a sword and mowing down folks, you just broke your alignment as well as your paladin code, and it's gonna take a thick rug to pray for that ''atonement'' later. Why?

1d4chan>Saarlacfunkel: /* The Otherside of the Coin: Or why you should stop worrying and just love all the killing */ That's much better, but the TLDR was an issue.

2022-02-26T13:16:06Z

The Otherside of the Coin: Or why you should stop worrying and just love all the killing: That's much better, but the TLDR was an issue.

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:16, 26 February 2022
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	DMs reading this should absolutely give their paladin players these opportunities when the party gets some downtime between adventures. Remember; paladins do not really covet wealth. So long as they save souls and stay Lawful Good, their big reward in the Upper Planes is already there waiting on them. The more souls they save, the more friends they'll have up there, and probably get even better promotions for it (just as devils get them for damning more souls).		DMs reading this should absolutely give their paladin players these opportunities when the party gets some downtime between adventures. Remember; paladins do not really covet wealth. So long as they save souls and stay Lawful Good, their big reward in the Upper Planes is already there waiting on them. The more souls they save, the more friends they'll have up there, and probably get even better promotions for it (just as devils get them for damning more souls).

	=The Otherside of the Coin: ~~Or why you should stop worrying and just [[Metal Gear\|love all the killing]]~~=		==The Otherside of the Coin: The obvious counterargument==
	Redeeming the degenerate and base servants of Evil is all [[Noblebright]] and good, but consider the parable of the soiled city upon the hill that was the city of Sodom and it's twin sister-city Gomorrah. Sodom was a wicked and perverse city inhabited largely by ordinary people, who were mundane in their wickedness for the most part; with the notable exception of the greater sins of their society; and they could have perhaps been delivered from evil and redeemed if they truly desired it.		Redeeming the degenerate and base servants of Evil is all [[Noblebright]] and good, but consider the parable of the soiled city upon the hill that was the city of Sodom and it's twin sister-city Gomorrah. Sodom was a wicked and perverse city inhabited largely by ordinary people, who were mundane in their wickedness for the most part; with the notable exception of the greater sins of their society; and they could have perhaps been delivered from evil and redeemed if they truly desired it.

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	This is in fact quite good for Team Good, the operative word here being ''time''. As the time that that damned waste of space is suffering through in the recruitment of Hell is time that they are not alive, spreading the taint of Evil ever further. It is time that they are not alive, matriculating into a more vile and wicked soul that is ripe for conversion into demon-hood. It is time that they are not spending bring OTHERS down to their level, whether it be through their own petty cruelties, their permissiveness towards the truly evil among them permitting their suffering at their hands, or their apathy towards the suffering of others that drives them into committing evil acts just to stay alive. It is time that they are not spending supporting the awful society which birthed them, thus making it easier for Team Good to destroy their debased country and weaken Evil's foothold in the world.		This is in fact quite good for Team Good, the operative word here being ''time''. As the time that that damned waste of space is suffering through in the recruitment of Hell is time that they are not alive, spreading the taint of Evil ever further. It is time that they are not alive, matriculating into a more vile and wicked soul that is ripe for conversion into demon-hood. It is time that they are not spending bring OTHERS down to their level, whether it be through their own petty cruelties, their permissiveness towards the truly evil among them permitting their suffering at their hands, or their apathy towards the suffering of others that drives them into committing evil acts just to stay alive. It is time that they are not spending supporting the awful society which birthed them, thus making it easier for Team Good to destroy their debased country and weaken Evil's foothold in the world.

	If you should take anything away from this, it's that good Paladins should not tolerate Evil being within their presence, if they're not going to smite it right away, then they should either engage in some good old pseudo-Christian shouting and rebuke and chastise them, or not be near Evil at all unless they're removing it with force. This can be quite disruptive, which while perfectly justified in-lore, can be a bit detrimental towards actual gameplay. Consider having the Paladin's Order be choosy about where they are sent, or mandate that their holy warriors maintain some sense of subtlety when abroad in foreign locales, after all, Paladins are essentially the foot-soldiers of Good, the forces of Evil would likely not be pleased to see even a non-hostile Paladin amongst them.		If you should take anything away from this, it's that good Paladins should not tolerate Evil being within their presence, if they're not going to smite it right away, then they should either engage in some good old pseudo-Christian shouting and rebuke and chastise them, or not be near Evil at all unless they're removing it with force. This can be quite disruptive, which while perfectly justified in-lore, can be a bit detrimental towards actual gameplay. Consider having the Paladin's Order be choosy about where they are sent, or mandate that their holy warriors maintain some sense of subtlety when abroad in foreign locales, after all, as Paladins are essentially the foot-soldiers of Good, the forces of Evil would likely not be pleased to see even a non-hostile Paladin amongst them.

	Of course, the oft quoted "whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster" comes to mind here, as such a merciless attitude can hardly be considered as appropriate for a Lawful Good character (or a purely Good character of any stripe for that matter), but that can be considered another limitation of the traditional Lawful/Chaotic-Good/Evil [[Alignment]] system. Not to mention that real-world philosophies of ethics constantly debate over these points through the schools of Consequentialism and Deontology. At worst, such a character may devolve into an especially weird form of Lawful Evil that is somehow aligned against Evil, but realistically, such a character would either end up outright defecting or dying alone without support from their former Good patrons when they are exiled for their transgressions against moral decency. Mind you this is something to keep in mind only for the pure Edgelords of Law, these points in moderation can do wonders to alleviate the problems of [[Stupid Good]].		Of course, the oft quoted "whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster" comes to mind here, as such a merciless attitude can hardly be considered as appropriate for a Lawful Good character (or a purely Good character of any stripe for that matter), but that can be considered another limitation of the traditional Lawful/Chaotic-Good/Evil [[Alignment]] system. Not to mention that real-world philosophies of ethics constantly debate over these points through the schools of Consequentialism and Deontology. At worst, such a character may devolve into an especially weird form of Lawful Evil that is somehow aligned against Evil, but realistically, such a character would either end up outright defecting or dying alone without support from their former Good patrons when they are exiled for their transgressions against moral decency. Mind you this is something to keep in mind only for the pure Edgelords of Law, these points in moderation can do wonders to alleviate the problems of [[Stupid Good]].

	TLDR; just embrace the [[Edgelord\|edginess]] and kill the degenerate fucks, your god isn't going to sweat over Evil getting a few extra [[Tanar'ri#Least_Tanar.27ri\|Manes]]/[[Baatezu#Inside_the_Hierarchy\|Lemures]].		In short: LAW FOR THE LAW GOD! GOOD FOR THE GOOD THRONE!

	~~[[Khorne\|Law for the Law god~~! ~~Justice for the Throne of Justice~~! ~~Let the multiverse '''BURN'''!]]~~


	==See Also==		==See Also==

1d4chan>Tsabo7: Let's agree to disagree on what counts as "pro-murder" (as that was not my intent), but I will change a few things.

2022-02-26T12:45:11Z

Let's agree to disagree on what counts as "pro-murder" (as that was not my intent), but I will change a few things.

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 </blockquote>
-The obvious problem with the above is that Detect Evil is usually used for terrible purposes by a lot of not very bright players and DMs (who try to use it as a "detect people who have committed crimes I am willing to kill people for committing" spell). Further, it has a bad habit of imposing an objective moral system on the setting, which is frequently thought a bad thing in these more enlightened times<ref>Feel free to put [[Wikipedia:Scare quotes|scare quotes]] around "enlightened".</ref>.
+The obvious problem with the above is that Detect Evil is usually used for terrible purposes by a lot of not very bright players and DMs (who try to use it as a "detect people who have committed crimes I am willing to kill people for committing" spell). Further, it has a bad habit of imposing an objective moral system on the setting, which is frequently thought a bad thing in these more "enlightened" times, although really the main excuse for that is that writing an air-tight setting of objective morality is <u>'''very hard'''</u> and beyond the abilities of most authors, or whatever hack is posing as one this edition.
 Various methods used to correct these flaws at a system level include:
@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 DMs reading this should absolutely give their paladin players these opportunities when the party gets some downtime between adventures.  Remember; paladins do not really covet wealth. So long as they save souls and stay Lawful Good, their big reward in the Upper Planes is already there waiting on them.  The more souls they save, the more friends they'll have up there, and probably get even better promotions for it (just as devils get them for damning more souls).

1d4chan>Saarlacfunkel: I just don't think we should be pro-murder, is the thing.

2022-02-25T03:04:39Z

I just don't think we should be pro-murder, is the thing.

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 </blockquote>
-The obvious problem with the above is that Detect Evil is usually used for terrible purposes by a lot of not very bright players and DMs (who try to use it as a "detect people who have committed crimes I am willing to kill people for committing" spell). Further, it has a bad habit of imposing an objective moral system on the setting, which is frequently thought a bad thing in these more "enlightened" times, although really the main excuse for that is that writing an air-tight setting of objective morality is <u>'''very hard'''</u> and beyond the abilities of most authors, or whatever hack is posing as one this edition.
+The obvious problem with the above is that Detect Evil is usually used for terrible purposes by a lot of not very bright players and DMs (who try to use it as a "detect people who have committed crimes I am willing to kill people for committing" spell). Further, it has a bad habit of imposing an objective moral system on the setting, which is frequently thought a bad thing in these more enlightened times<ref>Feel free to put [[Wikipedia:Scare quotes|scare quotes]] around "enlightened".</ref>.
 Various methods used to correct these flaws at a system level include:
@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 DMs reading this should absolutely give their paladin players these opportunities when the party gets some downtime between adventures.  Remember; paladins do not really covet wealth. So long as they save souls and stay Lawful Good, their big reward in the Upper Planes is already there waiting on them.  The more souls they save, the more friends they'll have up there, and probably get even better promotions for it (just as devils get them for damning more souls).

1d4chan>Tsabo7: Undo revision 813268 by Saarlacfunkel (talk) Rude

2022-02-25T01:00:53Z

Undo revision 813268 by Saarlacfunkel (talk) Rude

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 </blockquote>
-The obvious problem with the above is that Detect Evil is usually used for terrible purposes by a lot of not very bright players and DMs (who try to use it as a "detect people who have committed crimes I am willing to kill people for committing" spell). Further, it has a bad habit of imposing an objective moral system on the setting, which is frequently thought a bad thing in these more enlightened times<ref>Feel free to put [[Wikipedia:Scare quotes|scare quotes]] around "enlightened".</ref>.
+The obvious problem with the above is that Detect Evil is usually used for terrible purposes by a lot of not very bright players and DMs (who try to use it as a "detect people who have committed crimes I am willing to kill people for committing" spell). Further, it has a bad habit of imposing an objective moral system on the setting, which is frequently thought a bad thing in these more "enlightened" times, although really the main excuse for that is that writing an air-tight setting of objective morality is <u>'''very hard'''</u> and beyond the abilities of most authors, or whatever hack is posing as one this edition.
 Various methods used to correct these flaws at a system level include:
@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 DMs reading this should absolutely give their paladin players these opportunities when the party gets some downtime between adventures.  Remember; paladins do not really covet wealth. So long as they save souls and stay Lawful Good, their big reward in the Upper Planes is already there waiting on them.  The more souls they save, the more friends they'll have up there, and probably get even better promotions for it (just as devils get them for damning more souls).

1d4chan>Saarlacfunkel: Let's not poke the bear, okay?

2022-02-24T14:54:29Z

Let's not poke the bear, okay?

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 </blockquote>
-The obvious problem with the above is that Detect Evil is usually used for terrible purposes by a lot of not very bright players and DMs (who try to use it as a "detect people who have committed crimes I am willing to kill people for committing" spell). Further, it has a bad habit of imposing an objective moral system on the setting, which is frequently thought a bad thing in these more "enlightened" times, although really the main excuse for that is that writing an air-tight setting of objective morality is <u>'''very hard'''</u> and beyond the abilities of most authors, or whatever hack is posing as one this edition.
+The obvious problem with the above is that Detect Evil is usually used for terrible purposes by a lot of not very bright players and DMs (who try to use it as a "detect people who have committed crimes I am willing to kill people for committing" spell). Further, it has a bad habit of imposing an objective moral system on the setting, which is frequently thought a bad thing in these more enlightened times<ref>Feel free to put [[Wikipedia:Scare quotes|scare quotes]] around "enlightened".</ref>.
 Various methods used to correct these flaws at a system level include:
@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 DMs reading this should absolutely give their paladin players these opportunities when the party gets some downtime between adventures.  Remember; paladins do not really covet wealth. So long as they save souls and stay Lawful Good, their big reward in the Upper Planes is already there waiting on them.  The more souls they save, the more friends they'll have up there, and probably get even better promotions for it (just as devils get them for damning more souls).

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:31, 25 March 2022
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	* [[Powder Keg of Justice]]		* [[Powder Keg of Justice]]
	* [https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/84719/how-to-stop-a-player-constantly-using-detect-magic-evil Here's some possible solutions for DMs in D&D]		* [https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/84719/how-to-stop-a-player-constantly-using-detect-magic-evil Here's some possible solutions for DMs in D&D]
			* [[Excerpt_from_%22Life_and_Times_of_Andros_Fairheart%22]]

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