Dump Stat - Revision history

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1d4chan>2DLove: typo

2022-01-08T18:35:36Z

typo

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:35, 8 January 2022
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	The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'', particularly in its popular Third Edition which was the first to use point buy as a default method of stat generation rather than random generation. All the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. Conversely, Charisma ''only'' has a fundamental impact when the DM says it does. Unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.		The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'', particularly in its popular Third Edition which was the first to use point buy as a default method of stat generation rather than random generation. All the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. Conversely, Charisma ''only'' has a fundamental impact when the DM says it does. Unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.

	The problem with Charisma ~~ring~~ a safe dump has been around since the earliest days of ''D&D'', but in early ''D&D'', skills largely didn’t exist and stats were overall less important since the penalties for below-average and the bonuses for above-average were comparatively slight, particularly for the mental stats, and the over-the-top bonuses for high stats were rare to see ([[Honest Rolls Character\|if the players didn’t have stupidly good luck anyway]]). Ironically, in the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play.		The problem with Charisma being a safe dump has been around since the earliest days of ''D&D'', but in early ''D&D'', skills largely didn’t exist and stats were overall less important since the penalties for below-average and the bonuses for above-average were comparatively slight, particularly for the mental stats, and the over-the-top bonuses for high stats were rare to see ([[Honest Rolls Character\|if the players didn’t have stupidly good luck anyway]]). Ironically, in the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play.

	Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.		Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.

1d4chan>SpectralTime at 13:00, 17 October 2021

2021-10-17T13:00:24Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:00, 17 October 2021
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	A better system is probably attempting to make ''all'' stats important and useful for the core mechanics the game is built around (which for most games means combat). Look to ''[[7th Sea]]'' for a good example of such a system. Since all five stats have a direct impact on combat, dumping any one of them causes harsh, punishing penalties; virtually every new player is advised to buy every stat up to at least two, and most veterans do the same for all but the most gimmicky of characters.		A better system is probably attempting to make ''all'' stats important and useful for the core mechanics the game is built around (which for most games means combat). Look to ''[[7th Sea]]'' for a good example of such a system. Since all five stats have a direct impact on combat, dumping any one of them causes harsh, punishing penalties; virtually every new player is advised to buy every stat up to at least two, and most veterans do the same for all but the most gimmicky of characters.

	The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'', particularly in its popular Third Edition which was the first to use point buy as a default method of stat generation rather than random generation. ~~While all~~ the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. Conversely, Charisma ''only'' has a fundamental impact when the DM says it does. Unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.		The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'', particularly in its popular Third Edition which was the first to use point buy as a default method of stat generation rather than random generation. All the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. Conversely, Charisma ''only'' has a fundamental impact when the DM says it does. Unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.

	The problem with Charisma ring a safe dump has been around since the earliest days of ''D&D'', but in early ''D&D'', skills largely didn’t exist and stats were overall less important since the penalties for below-average and the bonuses for above-average were comparatively slight, particularly for the mental stats, and the over-the-top bonuses for high stats were rare to see ([[Honest Rolls Character\|if the players didn’t have stupidly good luck anyway]]). Ironically, in the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play.		The problem with Charisma ring a safe dump has been around since the earliest days of ''D&D'', but in early ''D&D'', skills largely didn’t exist and stats were overall less important since the penalties for below-average and the bonuses for above-average were comparatively slight, particularly for the mental stats, and the over-the-top bonuses for high stats were rare to see ([[Honest Rolls Character\|if the players didn’t have stupidly good luck anyway]]). Ironically, in the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play.

1d4chan>SpectralTime at 12:59, 17 October 2021

2021-10-17T12:59:42Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:59, 17 October 2021
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	A better system is probably attempting to make ''all'' stats important and useful for the core mechanics the game is built around (which for most games means combat). Look to ''[[7th Sea]]'' for a good example of such a system. Since all five stats have a direct impact on combat, dumping any one of them causes harsh, punishing penalties; virtually every new player is advised to buy every stat up to at least two, and most veterans do the same for all but the most gimmicky of characters.		A better system is probably attempting to make ''all'' stats important and useful for the core mechanics the game is built around (which for most games means combat). Look to ''[[7th Sea]]'' for a good example of such a system. Since all five stats have a direct impact on combat, dumping any one of them causes harsh, punishing penalties; virtually every new player is advised to buy every stat up to at least two, and most veterans do the same for all but the most gimmicky of characters.

	The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]''~~. Consider~~ Third Edition~~, where~~ all the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. Conversely, Charisma ''only'' has a fundamental impact when the DM says it does. Unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.		The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'', particularly in its popular Third Edition which was the first to use point buy as a default method of stat generation rather than random generation. While all the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. Conversely, Charisma ''only'' has a fundamental impact when the DM says it does. Unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.

	The problem with Charisma ring a safe dump has been around since the earliest days of ''D&D'', but in early ''D&D'', skills largely didn’t exist and stats were overall less important ([[Honest Rolls Character\| if the ~~player~~ didn’t have stupidly good luck anyway]]). Ironically, in the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], ~~where~~ CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play.		The problem with Charisma ring a safe dump has been around since the earliest days of ''D&D'', but in early ''D&D'', skills largely didn’t exist and stats were overall less important since the penalties for below-average and the bonuses for above-average were comparatively slight, particularly for the mental stats, and the over-the-top bonuses for high stats were rare to see ([[Honest Rolls Character\|if the players didn’t have stupidly good luck anyway]]). Ironically, in the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play.

	Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.		Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.

1d4chan>SpectralTime: Poorly written and mostly wrong besides.

2021-10-17T12:54:31Z

Poorly written and mostly wrong besides.

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:54, 17 October 2021
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	A better system is probably attempting to make ''all'' stats important and useful for the core mechanics the game is built around (which for most games means combat). Look to ''[[7th Sea]]'' for a good example of such a system. Since all five stats have a direct impact on combat, dumping any one of them causes harsh, punishing penalties; virtually every new player is advised to buy every stat up to at least two, and most veterans do the same for all but the most gimmicky of characters.		A better system is probably attempting to make ''all'' stats important and useful for the core mechanics the game is built around (which for most games means combat). Look to ''[[7th Sea]]'' for a good example of such a system. Since all five stats have a direct impact on combat, dumping any one of them causes harsh, punishing penalties; virtually every new player is advised to buy every stat up to at least two, and most veterans do the same for all but the most gimmicky of characters.

	The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]''. ~~All~~ the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. ~~In classic 1970s-era D&D~~ Charisma ''only'' ~~had an~~ impact ~~outside of its associated skills checks~~ when the DM says it does. ~~In those "core" rules, unless~~ the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.		The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]''. Consider Third Edition, where all the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. Conversely, Charisma ''only'' has a fundamental impact when the DM says it does. Unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.

	~~This was realised very~~ early on, ~~so several attempts~~ were ~~floated to give high-CHA players something to do.~~ [[~~AD&D]] floated~~ the ~~[[Bard~~]].~~.. LOL. Then came~~ the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], where CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play~~. Then Third Edition proposed the [[Sorcerer]], if only the Sorcerer was something that wasn't totally broken~~.		The problem with Charisma ring a safe dump has been around since the earliest days of ''D&D'', but in early ''D&D'', skills largely didn’t exist and stats were overall less important ([[Honest Rolls Character\| if the player didn’t have stupidly good luck anyway]]). Ironically, in the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], where CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play.

	Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.		Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.

1d4chan>Zimriel at 23:44, 11 August 2021

2021-08-11T23:44:52Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:44, 11 August 2021
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	Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.		Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.

			If we're looking for a cautionary-tale on what happens if you dump-stat the wrong thing and then go to the wrong place: [[X12: Skarda's Mirror]]. Whether it was Mallek's WIS 13 or his CHA 15, it wasn't enough against the last thoughts of a dying ''god''.

	==See Also==		==See Also==

1d4chan>Zimriel at 02:52, 24 May 2021

2021-05-24T02:52:15Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:52, 24 May 2021
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	A better system is probably attempting to make ''all'' stats important and useful for the core mechanics the game is built around (which for most games means combat). Look to ''[[7th Sea]]'' for a good example of such a system. Since all five stats have a direct impact on combat, dumping any one of them causes harsh, punishing penalties; virtually every new player is advised to buy every stat up to at least two, and most veterans do the same for all but the most gimmicky of characters.		A better system is probably attempting to make ''all'' stats important and useful for the core mechanics the game is built around (which for most games means combat). Look to ''[[7th Sea]]'' for a good example of such a system. Since all five stats have a direct impact on combat, dumping any one of them causes harsh, punishing penalties; virtually every new player is advised to buy every stat up to at least two, and most veterans do the same for all but the most gimmicky of characters.

	The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons ~~3rd Edition~~]]''. All the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. Charisma ''only'' ~~has~~ an impact outside of its associated skills checks when the DM says it does. ~~Thus~~, unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.		The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]''. All the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. In classic 1970s-era D&D Charisma ''only'' had an impact outside of its associated skills checks when the DM says it does. In those "core" rules, unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.

			This was realised very early on, so several attempts were floated to give high-CHA players something to do. [[AD&D]] floated the [[Bard]]... LOL. Then came the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], where CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play. Then Third Edition proposed the [[Sorcerer]], if only the Sorcerer was something that wasn't totally broken.

	Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.		Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.

1d4chan>SpectralTime at 19:06, 31 May 2020

2020-05-31T19:06:15Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:06, 31 May 2020
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	A [[Dump Stat]] is roleplaying gamer slang for a character [[statistic]] with a less overall impact compared to the other characteristics. It is the opposite of a [[God Stat]]. Dump stats may be specific to a campaign (for example, an action-focused campaign where most interaction is of the fist-to-face variety will render a character's charming social skills mostly irrelevant), a [[GM]]'s house rules (GMs who cleave to the "roleplaying not ''roll''playing" defense often make social skills totally redundant, calling every social encounter entirely based on the player's acting and word choice rather than asking for or allowing social skill rolls and letting the character be better than the player at something), or can be present in the system [[RAW]]. Dump stats are often tied to a character's primary class or focus; combat-oriented characters tend to get little benefit from a high [[Charisma]] attribute, for example, whereas spellcasting classes who are usually expected to stay out of frontline combat likewise benefit little from having high [[Strength]]. Conversely, a dump stat could result from minimal penalties for having it low: a fighter can use [[cleric\|other]] [[bard\|party]] [[sorcerer\|members]] to do the talking for him (and paying hookers with gold negates bad social stats altogether), while a weak wizard can get a literal or metaphorical pack mule to carry things for him and not worry about the problems of having low Strength.		A [[Dump Stat]] is roleplaying gamer slang for a character [[statistic]] with a less overall impact compared to the other characteristics. It is the opposite of a [[God Stat]]. Dump stats may be specific to a campaign (for example, an action-focused campaign where most interaction is of the fist-to-face variety will render a character's charming social skills mostly irrelevant), a [[GM]]'s house rules (GMs who cleave to the "roleplaying not ''roll''playing" defense often make social skills totally redundant, calling every social encounter entirely based on the player's acting and word choice rather than asking for or allowing social skill rolls and letting the character be better than the player at something), or can be present in the system [[RAW]]. Dump stats are often tied to a character's primary class or focus; combat-oriented characters tend to get little benefit from a high [[Charisma]] attribute, for example, whereas spellcasting classes who are usually expected to stay out of frontline combat likewise benefit little from having high [[Strength]]. Conversely, a dump stat could result from minimal penalties for having it low: a fighter can use [[cleric\|other]] [[bard\|party]] [[sorcerer\|members]] to do the talking for him (and paying hookers with gold negates bad social stats altogether), while a weak wizard can get a literal or metaphorical pack mule to carry things for him and not worry about the problems of having low Strength.

	When a dump stat is obvious as a result of class selection or rules, if possible, many players will use it to ensure they have high scores in their important abilities (either by placing their lowest score in that stat or by neglecting to improve it in points-buy systems). Some consider this to be [[powergamer\|powergaming]], but the practice is very widespread. No matter how you feel about the practice, it's hard to argue that players should be forced to spend finite resources on something that provides them radically lower benefits than anything else you can spend on. Some systems have made level up models which mitigate this a little, making additional points of high attributes more expensive, while low ones are very cheap, ~~at least~~ allowing players to spend left over experience, rather than ~~the full rate for~~ them. Unfortunately, [[Linear Build Quadratic EXP\| this carries its own problems]].		When a dump stat is obvious as a result of class selection or rules, if possible, many players will use it to ensure they have high scores in their important abilities (either by placing their lowest score in that stat or by neglecting to improve it in points-buy systems). Some consider this to be [[powergamer\|powergaming]], but the practice is very widespread. No matter how you feel about the practice, it's hard to argue that players should be forced to spend finite resources on something that provides them radically lower benefits than anything else you can spend on. Some systems have made level up models which mitigate this a little, making additional points of high attributes more expensive, while low ones are very cheap, allowing and incentivizing players to spend left over experience to improve them on the cheap, rather than making them directly give up improving their "core" stats. Unfortunately, [[Linear Build Quadratic EXP\| this carries its own problems]].

	A better system is probably attempting to make ''all'' stats important and useful for the core mechanics the game is built around (which for most games means combat). Look to ''[[7th Sea]]'' for a good example of such a system. Since all five stats have a direct impact on combat, dumping any one of them causes harsh, punishing penalties; virtually every new player is advised to buy every stat up to at least two, and most veterans do the same for all but the most gimmicky of characters.		A better system is probably attempting to make ''all'' stats important and useful for the core mechanics the game is built around (which for most games means combat). Look to ''[[7th Sea]]'' for a good example of such a system. Since all five stats have a direct impact on combat, dumping any one of them causes harsh, punishing penalties; virtually every new player is advised to buy every stat up to at least two, and most veterans do the same for all but the most gimmicky of characters.

1d4chan>SpectralTime at 19:04, 31 May 2020

2020-05-31T19:04:40Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:04, 31 May 2020
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	A [[Dump Stat]] is roleplaying gamer slang for a character [[statistic]] with a less overall impact compared to the other characteristics. It is the opposite of a [[God Stat]]. Dump stats may be specific to a campaign (for example, an action-focused campaign where most interaction is of the fist-to-face variety will render a character's charming social skills mostly irrelevant), a [[GM]]'s house rules (GMs who cleave to the "roleplaying not ''roll''playing defense often make social skills totally redundant, calling every social encounter entirely based on the player's acting and word choice rather than asking for or allowing social skill rolls and letting the character be better than the player at something), or can be present in the system [[RAW]]. Dump stats are often tied to a character's primary class or focus; combat-oriented characters tend to get little benefit from a high [[Charisma]] attribute, for example, whereas spellcasting classes who are usually expected to stay out of frontline combat likewise benefit little from having high [[Strength]]. Conversely, a dump stat could result from minimal penalties for having it low: a fighter can use [[cleric\|other]] [[bard\|party]] [[sorcerer\|members]] to do the talking for him (and paying hookers with gold negates bad social stats altogether), while a weak wizard can get a literal or metaphorical pack mule to carry things for him and not worry about the problems of having low Strength.		A [[Dump Stat]] is roleplaying gamer slang for a character [[statistic]] with a less overall impact compared to the other characteristics. It is the opposite of a [[God Stat]]. Dump stats may be specific to a campaign (for example, an action-focused campaign where most interaction is of the fist-to-face variety will render a character's charming social skills mostly irrelevant), a [[GM]]'s house rules (GMs who cleave to the "roleplaying not ''roll''playing" defense often make social skills totally redundant, calling every social encounter entirely based on the player's acting and word choice rather than asking for or allowing social skill rolls and letting the character be better than the player at something), or can be present in the system [[RAW]]. Dump stats are often tied to a character's primary class or focus; combat-oriented characters tend to get little benefit from a high [[Charisma]] attribute, for example, whereas spellcasting classes who are usually expected to stay out of frontline combat likewise benefit little from having high [[Strength]]. Conversely, a dump stat could result from minimal penalties for having it low: a fighter can use [[cleric\|other]] [[bard\|party]] [[sorcerer\|members]] to do the talking for him (and paying hookers with gold negates bad social stats altogether), while a weak wizard can get a literal or metaphorical pack mule to carry things for him and not worry about the problems of having low Strength.

	When a dump stat is obvious as a result of class selection or rules, if possible, many players will use it to ensure they have high scores in their important abilities (either by placing their lowest score in that stat or by neglecting to improve it in points-buy systems). Some consider this to be [[powergamer\|powergaming]], but the practice is very widespread. No matter how you feel about the practice, it's hard to argue that players should be forced to spend finite resources on something that provides them radically lower benefits than anything else you can spend on. Some systems have made level up models which mitigate this a little, making additional points of high attributes more expensive, while low ones are very cheap, at least allowing players to spend left over experience, rather than the full rate for them. Unfortunately, [[Linear Build Quadratic EXP\| this carries its own problems]].		When a dump stat is obvious as a result of class selection or rules, if possible, many players will use it to ensure they have high scores in their important abilities (either by placing their lowest score in that stat or by neglecting to improve it in points-buy systems). Some consider this to be [[powergamer\|powergaming]], but the practice is very widespread. No matter how you feel about the practice, it's hard to argue that players should be forced to spend finite resources on something that provides them radically lower benefits than anything else you can spend on. Some systems have made level up models which mitigate this a little, making additional points of high attributes more expensive, while low ones are very cheap, at least allowing players to spend left over experience, rather than the full rate for them. Unfortunately, [[Linear Build Quadratic EXP\| this carries its own problems]].

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	The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'', particularly in its popular Third Edition which was the first to use point buy as a default method of stat generation rather than random generation. All the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. Conversely, Charisma ''only'' has a fundamental impact when the DM says it does. Unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.		The traditional example is the [[Charisma]] [[Ability Scores\|ability score]] from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'', particularly in its popular Third Edition which was the first to use point buy as a default method of stat generation rather than random generation. All the other stats contribute some sort of primary or secondary gameplay or combat benefit beyond the skills associated with them: [[Strength]] decides melee ability and carrying capacity (with some impact on certain aspects of ranged combat), [[Dexterity]] adds to Armor Class, Reflex saving throws, Initiative checks, and ranged ability (along with some forms of melee combat), [[Constitution]] grants extra hitpoints and bonuses to Fortitude saves, [[Intelligence]] gives out extra skill points, and [[Wisdom]] increases Will saves. Conversely, Charisma ''only'' has a fundamental impact when the DM says it does. Unless the player wants to focus on having social skills or has class features that use the attribute, such as spellcasting, Charisma is always the stat that incurs the least penalties for dumping for any character.

	The problem with Charisma ~~ring~~ a safe dump has been around since the earliest days of ''D&D'', but in early ''D&D'', skills largely didn’t exist and stats were overall less important since the penalties for below-average and the bonuses for above-average were comparatively slight, particularly for the mental stats, and the over-the-top bonuses for high stats were rare to see ([[Honest Rolls Character\|if the players didn’t have stupidly good luck anyway]]). Ironically, in the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play.		The problem with Charisma being a safe dump has been around since the earliest days of ''D&D'', but in early ''D&D'', skills largely didn’t exist and stats were overall less important since the penalties for below-average and the bonuses for above-average were comparatively slight, particularly for the mental stats, and the over-the-top bonuses for high stats were rare to see ([[Honest Rolls Character\|if the players didn’t have stupidly good luck anyway]]). Ironically, in the Companion Set's War Machine and [[BATTLESYSTEM]], CHA was actually something of a God Stat, if only wargaming was something the party wanted to play.

	Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.		Notably, both subsequent editions of the game reworked the stat system to make Charisma a more attractive choice for PCs, [[Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition\|4e]] by allowing either Wisdom ''or'' Charisma to improve Will defenses and the Power system making it a direct component of many character classes' combat ability, [[Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition\|5e]] by attaching Charisma saves to a variety of comparatively rare but deeply nasty effects, including resisting possession by outsiders and ghosts, avoiding planar or dimensional displacement, and preventing life drain by various undead monsters.