Dune - Revision history

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50.232.10.18: /* The films */

2023-06-08T13:28:15Z

The films

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	== The films ==		== The films ==
	Dune has become quite ~~wellknown~~ for being considered almost impossible to make an adaptation of. There ~~has still~~ been several attempts, some more successful than others.		Dune has become quite well known for being considered almost impossible to make an adaptation of. There have been several attempts, some more successful than others.

	Alejandro Jodorowsky, a French-Chilean director that made balls-to-the-walls experimental movies, was slated to direct a '' very loose'' (by his own account, "I was raping Frank Herbert... with love.” ), film adaptation with set design from H.R. Giger, effects by Dan O'Bannon, conceptual art by comic book artist Moebius, music from Pink Floyd and Magma, and starring Salvador Dali, Orson Welles, David Carradine, and Mick Jagger, though sadly it ran out of money in pre-production. Even if it has never been realized, it has a cult following for just the possibilities of "what could've been", even though it would take the already psychedelic book and ramp the weirdness up to eleven and it would have been at least 14 to 20 hours long. The failed production would also be very influential in later science fiction films; Giger and O'Bannon would go on to contribute to the production of ''Alien'', and many of its sets were recycled by George Lucas in ''[[Star Wars]]''.		Alejandro Jodorowsky, a French-Chilean director that made balls-to-the-walls experimental movies, was slated to direct a '' very loose'' (by his own account, "I was raping Frank Herbert... with love.” ), film adaptation with set design from H.R. Giger, effects by Dan O'Bannon, conceptual art by comic book artist Moebius, music from Pink Floyd and Magma, and starring Salvador Dali, Orson Welles, David Carradine, and Mick Jagger, though sadly it ran out of money in pre-production. Even if it has never been realized, it has a cult following for just the possibilities of "what could've been", even though it would take the already psychedelic book and ramp the weirdness up to eleven and it would have been at least 14 to 20 hours long. The failed production would also be very influential in later science fiction films; Giger and O'Bannon would go on to contribute to the production of ''Alien'', and many of its sets were recycled by George Lucas in ''[[Star Wars]]''.

50.232.10.18: /* The Films */

2023-06-08T13:27:52Z

The Films

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	* '''''Caladan Trilogy''''': Three more prequels, focusing on Duke Leto, Lady Jessica, and Paul in the run-up to ''Dune''.		* '''''Caladan Trilogy''''': Three more prequels, focusing on Duke Leto, Lady Jessica, and Paul in the run-up to ''Dune''.

	== The ~~Films~~ ==		== The films ==
	Dune has become quite wellknown for being considered almost impossible to make an adaptation of. There has still been several attempts, some more successful than others.		Dune has become quite wellknown for being considered almost impossible to make an adaptation of. There has still been several attempts, some more successful than others.

111.125.114.13: /* The Films */

2023-06-05T07:51:10Z

The Films

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	Dune has become quite wellknown for being considered almost impossible to make an adaptation of. There has still been several attempts, some more successful than others.		Dune has become quite wellknown for being considered almost impossible to make an adaptation of. There has still been several attempts, some more successful than others.

	Alejandro Jodorowsky, a French-Chilean director that made balls-to-the-walls experimental movies, was slated to direct a '' very loose'' (by his own account, "I was raping Frank Herbert... with love.” ), film adaptation with set design from H.R. Giger, effects by Dan O'Bannon, conceptual art by comic book artist Moebius, music from Pink Floyd and Magma, and starring Salvador Dali, Orson Welles, David Carradine, and Mick Jagger, though sadly it ran out of money in pre-production. Even if it has never been realized, it has a cult following for just the possibilities of "what could've been", even though it would take the already psychedelic book and ~~rump~~ the weirdness up to eleven and it would have been at least 14 to 20 hours long. The failed production would also be very influential in later science fiction films; Giger and O'Bannon would go on to contribute to the production of ''Alien'', and many of its sets were recycled by George Lucas in ''[[Star Wars]]''.		Alejandro Jodorowsky, a French-Chilean director that made balls-to-the-walls experimental movies, was slated to direct a '' very loose'' (by his own account, "I was raping Frank Herbert... with love.” ), film adaptation with set design from H.R. Giger, effects by Dan O'Bannon, conceptual art by comic book artist Moebius, music from Pink Floyd and Magma, and starring Salvador Dali, Orson Welles, David Carradine, and Mick Jagger, though sadly it ran out of money in pre-production. Even if it has never been realized, it has a cult following for just the possibilities of "what could've been", even though it would take the already psychedelic book and ramp the weirdness up to eleven and it would have been at least 14 to 20 hours long. The failed production would also be very influential in later science fiction films; Giger and O'Bannon would go on to contribute to the production of ''Alien'', and many of its sets were recycled by George Lucas in ''[[Star Wars]]''.

	The David Lynch movie absolutely sucked in that it managed to make an already very weird book into an even weirder movie (<s>saying this out loud is a good way to troll hipsters</s> Not really. Even Lynch knew it sucked, as evidenced by the fact he had his name removed from the television cut). If you want a good laugh I'd suggest you watch it -- it's not often that you'll see a fetal manatee shit/barf lasers. It's a classic case of Hollywood taking an amazing work of art and deciding "the audience" won't like it, so they got rid of the parts they didn't understand. If you've read the book, the butchery is even more <s>hilarious</s> <s>cringe-worthy</s> full of [[lulz]], though I suggest you don't watch the movie first. Who, after all, would want to read ''The Odyssey'' after seeing the movie? I'd suggest you see the movie as well, as it is also <s>''that bad''</s> awesome. Good soundtrack though. The film is still a worthwhile experience just for the setting, but absolutely fails at making the narrative compelling. Also Herbert liked it, and even Villeneuve took design cues from it. Finally, there is a [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yw2nGCUPa4&t=0s\| 3 hour fan edit of David Lynch's film]; this is the best version one could watch (unless Lynch finally decides to release a Director's Cut), since it ties up loose ends and reorganises some scenes for better pacing.		The David Lynch movie absolutely sucked in that it managed to make an already very weird book into an even weirder movie (<s>saying this out loud is a good way to troll hipsters</s> Not really. Even Lynch knew it sucked, as evidenced by the fact he had his name removed from the television cut). If you want a good laugh I'd suggest you watch it -- it's not often that you'll see a fetal manatee shit/barf lasers. It's a classic case of Hollywood taking an amazing work of art and deciding "the audience" won't like it, so they got rid of the parts they didn't understand. If you've read the book, the butchery is even more <s>hilarious</s> <s>cringe-worthy</s> full of [[lulz]], though I suggest you don't watch the movie first. Who, after all, would want to read ''The Odyssey'' after seeing the movie? I'd suggest you see the movie as well, as it is also <s>''that bad''</s> awesome. Good soundtrack though. The film is still a worthwhile experience just for the setting, but absolutely fails at making the narrative compelling. Also Herbert liked it, and even Villeneuve took design cues from it. Finally, there is a [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yw2nGCUPa4&t=0s\| 3 hour fan edit of David Lynch's film]; this is the best version one could watch (unless Lynch finally decides to release a Director's Cut), since it ties up loose ends and reorganises some scenes for better pacing.

1d4chan>A Walrus at 11:52, 29 May 2023

2023-05-29T11:52:08Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:52, 29 May 2023
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	Political victory comes from being voted into, and staying as, the Dune Governorship for 45 days; the position is acquired through the Landsraad voting system. If you meet the prerequisites, you can get voted into a few positions which give various bonuses with the titular Dune Governorship doing what I just said it did.		Political victory comes from being voted into, and staying as, the Dune Governorship for 45 days; the position is acquired through the Landsraad voting system. If you meet the prerequisites, you can get voted into a few positions which give various bonuses with the titular Dune Governorship doing what I just said it did.
			== Trivia ==
			* The story was inspired by a US government initiative to plant long-root grasses in some Sand Dunes in Oregon to stabilize them.

174.48.165.232: /* The Politics */

2023-05-10T14:17:34Z

The Politics

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	With a new movie series coming out, it's worth breaking down the politics of the first book. Here are the major factions and their motivations:		With a new movie series coming out, it's worth breaking down the politics of the first book. Here are the major factions and their motivations:

	* '''House Atreides:''' Duke Leto rules the planet Caladan and the Emperor has named him the next ruler of Arrakis. The Bene Gesserit had meanwhile foisted a concubine on him, Jessica, and ordered her to give him a daughter; but the couple ended up in love with each other so Jessica gave him a son - Paul - instead of a daughter whom the Bene Gesserit could have actual use for. Leto then legitimated his ''fitz'' as his heir thus pushing useful marriage alliances to that next generation. Leto has amassed a formidable council of advisors: Gurney Halleck, an escaped Harkonnen slave who rose through the ranks to become warmaster (played by Picard himself, Patrick Stewart); Thufir Hawat, Mentat and his master of assassins; Duncan Idaho, also an escaped slave and now a swordmaster of the Ginaz school and the Atreides House champion; and Wellington Yueh, a medical doctor of the Suk school conditioned to be unable to kill the people in his care. Paul is a prime candidate to marry the Emperor's daughter Irulan, but Leto's motivations are simply to keep his house safe. Or are they? In an opera all about grey morality, the Atreides are the heroes and good guys. And good guys they are: they struggle to govern fairly and treat people well and even save the whole human race. But scratch ''heavily'' under that - which is exactly what the books are trying to make you do: scratch and make the scratching difficult - and you start to question it. A lot - and I mean ''billions'' of people really hate the Atreides. And for good reason. Behind that "saviour complex" attitude, there's a frightening hunger for power.<s> That's why Shaddam IV - who was '''not''' a tyrant, in contrast to Paul, and was '''not''' an evil man, sided with the Harkonnens - whom he despised - to fuck up the Atreides.</s> Because he feared their rise to power.<s> Was he wrong?</s> I mean, after defeating him, Paul not only became Emperor, but he ruled with an iron fist and amassed a body count in the billions. Did he have good reasons to do that? Yeah... so ''he'' says.		* '''House Atreides:''' Duke Leto rules the planet Caladan and the Emperor has named him the next ruler of Arrakis. The Bene Gesserit had meanwhile foisted a concubine on him, Jessica, and ordered her to give him a daughter; but the couple ended up in love with each other so Jessica gave him a son - Paul - instead of a daughter whom the Bene Gesserit could have actual use for. Leto then legitimated his ''fitz'' as his heir thus pushing useful marriage alliances to that next generation. Leto has amassed a formidable council of advisors: Gurney Halleck, an escaped Harkonnen slave who rose through the ranks to become warmaster (played by Picard himself, Patrick Stewart); Thufir Hawat, Mentat and his master of assassins; Duncan Idaho, also an escaped slave and now a swordmaster of the Ginaz school and the Atreides House champion; and Wellington Yueh, a medical doctor of the Suk school conditioned to be unable to kill the people in his care. Paul is a prime candidate to marry the Emperor's daughter Irulan, but Leto's motivations are simply to keep his house safe. Or are they? In an opera all about grey morality, the Atreides are the heroes and good guys. And good guys they are: they struggle to govern fairly and treat people well and even save the whole human race. But scratch ''heavily'' under that - which is exactly what the books are trying to make you do: scratch and make the scratching difficult - and you start to question it. A lot - and I mean ''billions'' of people really hate the Atreides. And for good reason. Behind that "saviour complex" attitude, there's a frightening hunger for power.<s> That's why Shaddam IV - who was '''not''' a tyrant, in contrast to Paul, and was '''not''' an evil man, sided with the Harkonnens - whom he despised - to fuck up the Atreides.</s> Because he feared their rise to power.<s> Was he wrong?</s> I mean, after defeating him, Paul not only became Emperor, but he ruled with an iron fist and amassed a body count in the billions. Did he have good reasons to do that? Yeah... so ''he'' says. Being driven mad by God-Like omniscience would certainly make it more difficult for the other powers in the galaxy to see things his way.
	* '''House Harkonnen:''' For the last century, the Harkonnens have held fief over Arrakis, and their term is ending. The Harkonnens have had a family feud with the Atreides for millennia. The Siridar Baron, Vladimir Harkonnen (one of the most evil men this side of the universe), has no children (as far as we know at the beginning), but rather two nephews, Rabban (the Beast) and Feyd-Rautha (the pretty one, played by Sting). He and his advisor, a Twisted Mentat named Piter de Vries, want to settle all accounts: wipe out the Atreides, reclaim Arrakis, marry Feyd to Princess Irulan, and take control of the Empire.		* '''House Harkonnen:''' For the last century, the Harkonnens have held fief over Arrakis, and their term is ending. The Harkonnens have had a family feud with the Atreides for millennia. The Siridar Baron, Vladimir Harkonnen (one of the most evil men this side of the universe), has no children (as far as we know at the beginning), but rather two nephews, Rabban (the Beast) and Feyd-Rautha (the pretty one, played by Sting). He and his advisor, a Twisted Mentat named Piter de Vries, want to settle all accounts: wipe out the Atreides, reclaim Arrakis, marry Feyd to Princess Irulan, and take control of the Empire.
	* '''House Corrino:''' The house of the Padishah Emperor. Claims to rule all of space. The incumbent Emperor, Shaddam Corrino IV, has several daughters but no sons through his Bene Gesserit wife. He sees the potential end of his line and what could happen to his house. He knows that Leto is immensely popular and has amassed a formidable army, trained almost to the level of his own elite Sardaukar, and that represents a threat to his power that he cannot ignore. Shaddam conspires with the Harkonnens to lure Leto and his house into a trap on Arrakis and wipe them out.		* '''House Corrino:''' The house of the Padishah Emperor. Claims to rule all of space. The incumbent Emperor, Shaddam Corrino IV, has several daughters but no sons through his Bene Gesserit wife. He sees the potential end of his line and what could happen to his house. He knows that Leto is immensely popular and has amassed a formidable army, trained almost to the level of his own elite Sardaukar, and that represents a threat to his power that he cannot ignore. Shaddam conspires with the Harkonnens to lure Leto and his house into a trap on Arrakis and wipe them out.
	* '''The Bene Gesserit:''' A religious order of battle nuns and courtesans with psychometabolic powers. Basically pacifistic Sororitas (although if you cross them, they will not hesitate to hunt you to the ends of the universe if they have to) with a harder boner for scheming than Tzeentch and the Horned Rat combined. The sisterhood is nearing the culmination of thousands of years of selective breeding to produce a superman, but their plans were thrown into disorder when Jessica gave birth to a son instead of a daughter. To salvage their project they need either Paul or Feyd to survive and have a child, preferably through Irulan (although losing either one will be a setback).		* '''The Bene Gesserit:''' A religious order of battle nuns and courtesans with psychometabolic powers including dominating minds with their voice, psychic kung-fu, and limited prescience. Basically pacifistic Sororitas (although if you cross them, they will not hesitate to hunt you to the ends of the universe if they have to) with a harder boner for scheming than Tzeentch and the Horned Rat combined. The sisterhood is nearing the culmination of thousands of years of selective breeding to produce a superman called the Kwisatz-Haderach, a being that can combine the powers of Bene Gesserit, Mentat and Navigator and gain complete precognition, but their plans were thrown into disorder when Jessica gave birth to a son instead of a daughter. To salvage their project they need either Paul or Feyd to survive and have a child, preferably through Irulan (although losing either one will be a setback).
	* '''[[Haemonculus\|The Bene Tleilax]]:''' Also known as "Tleilaxu" (the first L is silent), this patriarchal, isolationist group contains the universe's premier genetic engineers. Creepy little bastards. Their clients view them as both useful and borderline [[Heresy\|heretics]] for how closely they skirt the letter of the Butlerian taboos. We don't actually meet any Tleilaxu agents until the events of ''Dune Messiah''.		* '''[[Haemonculus\|The Bene Tleilax]]:''' Also known as "Tleilaxu" (the first L is silent), this patriarchal, isolationist group contains the universe's premier genetic engineers. Creepy little bastards. Their clients view them as both useful and borderline [[Heresy\|heretics]] for how closely they skirt the letter of the Butlerian taboos. We don't actually meet any Tleilaxu agents until the events of ''Dune Messiah''.
	* '''Mentats''': Humans trained to replace computers after "thinking machines" were outlawed in the wake of the Butlerian Jihad. Their powers of memory and perception are honed to superhuman levels, making them capable of tremendously complex mathematical calculations. They can also collate and synthesize immense amounts of information, allowing them to divine hidden patterns and develop incredibly precise hypotheses and strategies (literal ''weaponized autism''); the very best Mentats can predict likely future outcomes, given sufficient data. Because of these abilities, most Great Houses have a Mentat advisor, and they are also used by the Bene Gesserit and other political or military organizations. They're required to operate within certain ethical frameworks, but some Houses want Mentats who can and will ignore any such constraints. These "Twisted Mentats" are produced by the Tleilaxu.		* '''Mentats''': Humans trained to replace computers after "thinking machines" were outlawed in the wake of the Butlerian Jihad. Their powers of memory and perception are honed to superhuman levels, making them capable of tremendously complex mathematical calculations. They can also collate and synthesize immense amounts of information, allowing them to divine hidden patterns and develop incredibly precise hypotheses and strategies (literal ''weaponized autism''); the very best Mentats can predict likely future outcomes, given sufficient data. Because of these abilities, most Great Houses have a Mentat advisor, and they are also used by the Bene Gesserit and other political or military organizations. They're required to operate within certain ethical frameworks, but some Houses want Mentats who can and will ignore any such constraints. These "Twisted Mentats" are produced by the Tleilaxu.

1d4chan>Redvsdead: /* Influence on Warhammer 40k */

2023-05-10T06:01:29Z

Influence on Warhammer 40k

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	* '''Close combat / Melee''': The Dune universe is close-combat-heavy because the Holtzman effect changed the face of warfare. This effect can be utilized to generate a man-sized field that can deflect matter that travels beyond a certain speed. This means that bullets are useless against people equipped with shields; this also means that air molecules can't easily pass through the shield, so you'd better get your fighting over with before you collapse from heatstroke and/or suffocate on your own CO2. "But there's [[Lasgun\|lasguns]] in Dune!" Yes, Timmy, there are, but when a laser beam hits a shield, the shooter, the target, and the surrounding landscape '''might''' be deleted in a nuclear explosion, so nobody tries it (the effect is also too unpredictable to be used deliberately - the explosion will either be too small or indistinguishable from an atomic weapon, and the use of atomics against humans is a ''big'' no-no in-universe). If your thinking that seems like a completely stupid idea to use a technology that even remotely has the potential to destroy everything in a nukes blast range just for a personal defense device, honestly your not wrong. Meta-wise its obviously an attempt to justify why no one attempts large scale ranged weapons but the concept is screaming for you not to apply to much logic to implementation. Anyways, swordsmanship has come back into style due to the high risk of using laser weapons, resulting in a reliance on melee combat, and projectile weapons are mostly represented by rather ineffective slow-pellet tranquilizer guns. This story element was due to author appeal, as Herbert wanted close combat in the story.		* '''Close combat / Melee''': The Dune universe is close-combat-heavy because the Holtzman effect changed the face of warfare. This effect can be utilized to generate a man-sized field that can deflect matter that travels beyond a certain speed. This means that bullets are useless against people equipped with shields; this also means that air molecules can't easily pass through the shield, so you'd better get your fighting over with before you collapse from heatstroke and/or suffocate on your own CO2. "But there's [[Lasgun\|lasguns]] in Dune!" Yes, Timmy, there are, but when a laser beam hits a shield, the shooter, the target, and the surrounding landscape '''might''' be deleted in a nuclear explosion, so nobody tries it (the effect is also too unpredictable to be used deliberately - the explosion will either be too small or indistinguishable from an atomic weapon, and the use of atomics against humans is a ''big'' no-no in-universe). If your thinking that seems like a completely stupid idea to use a technology that even remotely has the potential to destroy everything in a nukes blast range just for a personal defense device, honestly your not wrong. Meta-wise its obviously an attempt to justify why no one attempts large scale ranged weapons but the concept is screaming for you not to apply to much logic to implementation. Anyways, swordsmanship has come back into style due to the high risk of using laser weapons, resulting in a reliance on melee combat, and projectile weapons are mostly represented by rather ineffective slow-pellet tranquilizer guns. This story element was due to author appeal, as Herbert wanted close combat in the story.
	:: Interestingly, this aspect is rather downplayed in the actual book, since it mostly takes place on Arrakis and using shields in the Arrakis desert will attract very angry sandworms straight to your location. Fremen were as adept with projectile weapons as they were at melee combat, and they were most interested in learning Weirding Way (magic super kung-fu developed by the Bene Gesserit, which was replaced by sonic weapons in Lynch movie) because it allowed them to operate in Arrakis cities without their signature crys-knives. Ultimately the Atreides used the same tactics as the Soviets in Vietnam and Americans in Afghanistan - give anti-aircraft missiles to the natives and enjoy the fireworks.		:: Interestingly, this aspect is rather downplayed in the actual book, since it mostly takes place on Arrakis and using shields in the Arrakis desert will attract very angry sandworms straight to your location. Fremen were as adept with projectile weapons as they were at melee combat, and they were most interested in learning Weirding Way (magic super kung-fu developed by the Bene Gesserit, which was replaced by sonic weapons in Lynch movie) because it allowed them to operate in Arrakis cities without their signature crys-knives. Ultimately the Atreides used the same tactics as the Soviets in Vietnam and Americans in Afghanistan - give anti-aircraft missiles to the natives and enjoy the fireworks.
	:::On top of all this the technology completely vanishes from the story post GEOM after Leto outlawed them due to (shockingly) how dangerous they are to people around them. Potentially maybe even Herbert himself realizing how dumb it actually is to use a technology in universe that could accidently destroy a city just for personal defense.		:::On top of all this the technology completely vanishes from the story post GEOM after Leto outlawed them due to (shockingly) how dangerous they are to people around them. Potentially maybe even Herbert himself realizing how dumb it actually is to use a technology in universe that could accidently destroy a city just for personal defense.
	* '''[[Navigator\|Navigators]]''': The Dune universe has [[Navigator\|Navigators]] which are ''slightly'' similar to their 40k counterparts. Only source of ship travel? Check. Highly mutated? Check. Mutation worsens over time? Check. Some sort of magical powers, but somehow different from everyone else's? Check. Living outside of all political powers? Check. Having their own political agendas? Check. Secretive? Double fucking check. Basically they are the exact same thing with the small exceptions that they need spice to live. Also, Herbert may have cribbed them from the 1950 Cordwainer Smith story [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanners_Live_in_Vain "Scanners Live in Vain"].		* '''[[Navigator\|Navigators]]''': The Dune universe has [[Navigator\|Navigators]] which are ''slightly'' similar to their 40k counterparts. Only source of ship travel? Check. Highly mutated? Check. Mutation worsens over time? Check. Some sort of magical powers, but somehow different from everyone else's? Check. Living outside of all political powers? Check. Having their own political agendas? Check. Secretive? Double fucking check. Basically they are the exact same thing with the small exceptions that they need spice to live. Also, Herbert may have cribbed them from the 1950 Cordwainer Smith story [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanners_Live_in_Vain "Scanners Live in Vain"].
	* '''No AI allowed''': On the surface, it is the same story: AI goes bad, tries to conquer humanity, gets its virtual arse kicked, and is subsequently forbidden. However, Dune is a little bit more restrictive when it comes to [[Cogitator\|Cogitators]] or [[Servitor\|Servitors]] and uses humans hyper-trained from birth (and fucked up on drugs) known as "Mentats" as supercomputers instead. In the end though the backstory and the outcome is very much not the same. It's not clear what really happened during the Butlerian Jihad, but it's strongly hinted that humans "revolted" against the machines because of what the usage of machines meant for society and not because the evil machines turned against humanity. This is way more interesting than the common "evil terminator uprising" trope. The outcome is also very different in that the Butlerian Jihad unchains the true development of the human mind and body, ultimately far surpassing any AI capability. The ultimate message being that instead of relying on building better computers to do certain tasks, [[Humanity Fuck Yeah\|build a better human to do them instead, and render computers and AI obsolete when compared to the computational power of a trained human.]] All the while, the accelerated evolution of Humanity to fulfill this goal [[Grimdark\|twists and contorts what it means to be human, to the absolutely horrifying breaking point.]]		* '''No AI allowed''': On the surface, it is the same story: AI goes bad, tries to conquer humanity, gets its virtual arse kicked, and is subsequently forbidden. However, Dune is a little bit more restrictive when it comes to [[Cogitator\|Cogitators]] or [[Servitor\|Servitors]] and uses humans hyper-trained from birth (and fucked up on drugs) known as "Mentats" as supercomputers instead. In the end though the backstory and the outcome is very much not the same. It's not clear what really happened during the Butlerian Jihad, but it's strongly hinted that humans "revolted" against the machines because of what the usage of machines meant for society and not because the evil machines turned against humanity. This is way more interesting than the common "evil terminator uprising" trope. The outcome is also very different in that the Butlerian Jihad unchains the true development of the human mind and body, ultimately far surpassing any AI capability. The ultimate message being that instead of relying on building better computers to do certain tasks, [[Humanity Fuck Yeah\|build a better human to do them instead, and render computers and AI obsolete when compared to the computational power of a trained human.]] All the while, the accelerated evolution of Humanity to fulfill this goal [[Grimdark\|twists and contorts what it means to be human, to the absolutely horrifying breaking point.]]

1d4chan>Gbc343: /* Influence on Warhammer 40k */

2023-05-07T19:09:46Z

Influence on Warhammer 40k

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	Being a highly successful series with an unique and interesting universe it is obvious that [[Games Workshop]] <s>stole</s> took inspiration from Dune like a [[Blood Ravens\|Blood Raven]] in an unlocked reliquary. While this topic is up for [[Skub\|debate]] the following were most likely borrowed from the Dune universe:		Being a highly successful series with an unique and interesting universe it is obvious that [[Games Workshop]] <s>stole</s> took inspiration from Dune like a [[Blood Ravens\|Blood Raven]] in an unlocked reliquary. While this topic is up for [[Skub\|debate]] the following were most likely borrowed from the Dune universe:

	* '''Close combat / Melee''': The Dune universe is close-combat-heavy because the Holtzman effect changed the face of warfare. This effect can be utilized to generate a man-sized field that can deflect matter that travels beyond a certain speed. This means that bullets are useless against people equipped with shields; this also means that air molecules can't easily pass through the shield, so you'd better get your fighting over with before you collapse from heatstroke and/or suffocate on your own CO2. "But there's [[Lasgun\|lasguns]] in Dune!" Yes, Timmy, there are, but when a laser beam hits a shield, the shooter, the target, and the surrounding landscape '''might''' be deleted in a nuclear explosion, so nobody tries it (the effect is also too unpredictable to be used deliberately - the explosion will either be too small or indistinguishable from an atomic weapon, and the use of atomics against humans is a ''big'' no-no in-universe). ~~Thus~~ swordsmanship has come back into style due to the high risk of using laser weapons, resulting in a reliance on melee combat, and projectile weapons are mostly represented by rather ineffective slow-pellet tranquilizer guns. This story element was due to author appeal, as Herbert wanted close combat in the story.		* '''Close combat / Melee''': The Dune universe is close-combat-heavy because the Holtzman effect changed the face of warfare. This effect can be utilized to generate a man-sized field that can deflect matter that travels beyond a certain speed. This means that bullets are useless against people equipped with shields; this also means that air molecules can't easily pass through the shield, so you'd better get your fighting over with before you collapse from heatstroke and/or suffocate on your own CO2. "But there's [[Lasgun\|lasguns]] in Dune!" Yes, Timmy, there are, but when a laser beam hits a shield, the shooter, the target, and the surrounding landscape '''might''' be deleted in a nuclear explosion, so nobody tries it (the effect is also too unpredictable to be used deliberately - the explosion will either be too small or indistinguishable from an atomic weapon, and the use of atomics against humans is a ''big'' no-no in-universe). If your thinking that seems like a completely stupid idea to use a technology that even remotely has the potential to destroy everything in a nukes blast range just for a personal defense device, honestly your not wrong. Meta-wise its obviously an attempt to justify why no one attempts large scale ranged weapons but the concept is screaming for you not to apply to much logic to implementation. Anyways, swordsmanship has come back into style due to the high risk of using laser weapons, resulting in a reliance on melee combat, and projectile weapons are mostly represented by rather ineffective slow-pellet tranquilizer guns. This story element was due to author appeal, as Herbert wanted close combat in the story.
	:: Interestingly, this aspect is rather downplayed in the actual book, since it mostly takes place on Arrakis and using shields in the Arrakis desert will attract very angry sandworms straight to your location. Fremen were as adept with projectile weapons as they were at melee combat, and they were most interested in learning Weirding Way (magic super kung-fu developed by the Bene Gesserit, which was replaced by sonic weapons in Lynch movie) because it allowed them to operate in Arrakis cities without their signature crys-knives. Ultimately the Atreides used the same tactics as the Soviets in Vietnam and Americans in Afghanistan - give anti-aircraft missiles to the natives and enjoy the fireworks.		:: Interestingly, this aspect is rather downplayed in the actual book, since it mostly takes place on Arrakis and using shields in the Arrakis desert will attract very angry sandworms straight to your location. Fremen were as adept with projectile weapons as they were at melee combat, and they were most interested in learning Weirding Way (magic super kung-fu developed by the Bene Gesserit, which was replaced by sonic weapons in Lynch movie) because it allowed them to operate in Arrakis cities without their signature crys-knives. Ultimately the Atreides used the same tactics as the Soviets in Vietnam and Americans in Afghanistan - give anti-aircraft missiles to the natives and enjoy the fireworks.
			:::On top of all this the technology completely vanishes from the story post GEOM after Leto outlawed them due to (shockingly) how dangerous they are to people around them. Potentially maybe even Herbert himself realizing how dumb it actually is to use a technology in universe that could accidently destroy a city just for personal defense.
	* '''[[Navigator\|Navigators]]''': The Dune universe has [[Navigator\|Navigators]] which are ''slightly'' similar to their 40k counterparts. Only source of ship travel? Check. Highly mutated? Check. Mutation worsens over time? Check. Some sort of magical powers, but somehow different from everyone else's? Check. Living outside of all political powers? Check. Having their own political agendas? Check. Secretive? Double fucking check. Basically they are the exact same thing with the small exceptions that they need spice to live. Also, Herbert may have cribbed them from the 1950 Cordwainer Smith story [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanners_Live_in_Vain "Scanners Live in Vain"].		* '''[[Navigator\|Navigators]]''': The Dune universe has [[Navigator\|Navigators]] which are ''slightly'' similar to their 40k counterparts. Only source of ship travel? Check. Highly mutated? Check. Mutation worsens over time? Check. Some sort of magical powers, but somehow different from everyone else's? Check. Living outside of all political powers? Check. Having their own political agendas? Check. Secretive? Double fucking check. Basically they are the exact same thing with the small exceptions that they need spice to live. Also, Herbert may have cribbed them from the 1950 Cordwainer Smith story [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanners_Live_in_Vain "Scanners Live in Vain"].
	* '''No AI allowed''': On the surface, it is the same story: AI goes bad, tries to conquer humanity, gets its virtual arse kicked, and is subsequently forbidden. However, Dune is a little bit more restrictive when it comes to [[Cogitator\|Cogitators]] or [[Servitor\|Servitors]] and uses humans hyper-trained from birth (and fucked up on drugs) known as "Mentats" as supercomputers instead. In the end though the backstory and the outcome is very much not the same. It's not clear what really happened during the Butlerian Jihad, but it's strongly hinted that humans "revolted" against the machines because of what the usage of machines meant for society and not because the evil machines turned against humanity. This is way more interesting than the common "evil terminator uprising" trope. The outcome is also very different in that the Butlerian Jihad unchains the true development of the human mind and body, ultimately far surpassing any AI capability. The ultimate message being that instead of relying on building better computers to do certain tasks, [[Humanity Fuck Yeah\|build a better human to do them instead, and render computers and AI obsolete when compared to the computational power of a trained human.]] All the while, the accelerated evolution of Humanity to fulfill this goal [[Grimdark\|twists and contorts what it means to be human, to the absolutely horrifying breaking point.]]		* '''No AI allowed''': On the surface, it is the same story: AI goes bad, tries to conquer humanity, gets its virtual arse kicked, and is subsequently forbidden. However, Dune is a little bit more restrictive when it comes to [[Cogitator\|Cogitators]] or [[Servitor\|Servitors]] and uses humans hyper-trained from birth (and fucked up on drugs) known as "Mentats" as supercomputers instead. In the end though the backstory and the outcome is very much not the same. It's not clear what really happened during the Butlerian Jihad, but it's strongly hinted that humans "revolted" against the machines because of what the usage of machines meant for society and not because the evil machines turned against humanity. This is way more interesting than the common "evil terminator uprising" trope. The outcome is also very different in that the Butlerian Jihad unchains the true development of the human mind and body, ultimately far surpassing any AI capability. The ultimate message being that instead of relying on building better computers to do certain tasks, [[Humanity Fuck Yeah\|build a better human to do them instead, and render computers and AI obsolete when compared to the computational power of a trained human.]] All the while, the accelerated evolution of Humanity to fulfill this goal [[Grimdark\|twists and contorts what it means to be human, to the absolutely horrifying breaking point.]]

2601:188:C600:C26B:E8B3:1447:A4A3:5518: /* The Films */

2023-05-07T14:07:24Z

The Films

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:07, 7 May 2023
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	The Syfy Channel produced two six-hour mini-series based on the first three books. Their budget was low (it has the ''[[Babylon 5]]'' problem of painfully crude CGI), and many of the costume choices are downright ridiculous; instead of going with the Geiger-esque alien futurism of the Lynch film, or the grounded reality of the Villeneuve film, this aesthetic can be described as “flamboyant local theater costume department in overdrive”. However, they do manage to touch on each of the important plot points from those books and there's no skimping on the action to make "weirding module" toys to be sold as merchandise. Worth watching for what it is, and not ironically like the abortion above. If you watch both you can imagine how much better it would have been with the budget and actors Lynch had at his disposal. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShlhYT4FxGI Also the soundtrack for the second instalment is dope; same guy who did Thor: The Dark World.]		The Syfy Channel produced two six-hour mini-series based on the first three books. Their budget was low (it has the ''[[Babylon 5]]'' problem of painfully crude CGI), and many of the costume choices are downright ridiculous; instead of going with the Geiger-esque alien futurism of the Lynch film, or the grounded reality of the Villeneuve film, this aesthetic can be described as “flamboyant local theater costume department in overdrive”. However, they do manage to touch on each of the important plot points from those books and there's no skimping on the action to make "weirding module" toys to be sold as merchandise. Worth watching for what it is, and not ironically like the abortion above. If you watch both you can imagine how much better it would have been with the budget and actors Lynch had at his disposal. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShlhYT4FxGI Also the soundtrack for the second instalment is dope; same guy who did Thor: The Dark World.]

	Denis Villeneuve, of ''Arrival'' and ''Sicario'' fame, made his own adaptation in 2021, adapting only the first half of the original novel. Villeneuve's movie was a marked improvement over any previous adaptions- it has all of Villeneuve's flair for well crafted visuals and big ideas, and captures the mood and pace of the book much more than Lynch's. The pacing is much, ''much'' better as well, since it's not burdened by trying to cram the whole book into one movie. The transition from page to film has it's upsides and downsides - book lovers will be very pleased by the attention to detail, but the film itself is very dense and filled with near endless exposition and talking/scheming, which may bore people going in expecting a non-stop sci-fi war film (which the new trailers were really trying to convince us of), although anyone who's read the book before is likely expecting this. The visuals are very, very impressive (The scene where the Sardaukar are introduced ''will'' make you cream your pants, even if you don't know anything about the setting). You can't say Villeneuve didn't pour his heart into it.		Denis Villeneuve of ''Arrival'' and ''Sicario'' fame made his own adaptation in 2021, adapting only the first half of the original novel. Villeneuve's movie was a marked improvement over any previous adaptions- it has all of Villeneuve's flair for well crafted visuals and big ideas, and captures the mood and pace of the book much more than Lynch's. The pacing is much, ''much'' better as well, since it's not burdened by trying to cram the whole book into one movie. The transition from page to film has it's upsides and downsides - book lovers will be very pleased by the attention to detail, but the film itself is very dense and filled with near endless exposition and talking/scheming, which may bore people going in expecting a non-stop sci-fi war film (which the new trailers were really trying to convince us of), although anyone who's read the book before is likely expecting this. The visuals are very, very impressive (The scene where the Sardaukar are introduced ''will'' make you cream your pants, even if you don't know anything about the setting). You can't say Villeneuve didn't pour his heart into it.

	There ''have'' been some changes made to the story. For example they seem to have simplified the Fremen's story; in the film, they rose up and were defeated by the Harkonnens, which lead to their situation, while in the original book it was shown they were intentionally avoiding conflict with the Harkonnens and were deliberately hiding their numbers. Luckily there isn't much that would drastically change any upcoming events, but there remains the possibility that the films may not finish exactly like the books. Which to be honest is understandable, Herbert's books can have a tendency to disappear up its own ass (making the story overtly		There ''have'' been some changes made to the story. For example they seem to have simplified the Fremen's story; in the film, they rose up and were defeated by the Harkonnens, which lead to their situation, while in the original book it was shown they were intentionally avoiding conflict with the Harkonnens and were deliberately hiding their numbers. Luckily there isn't much that would drastically change any upcoming events, but there remains the possibility that the films may not finish exactly like the books. Which to be honest is understandable, Herbert's books can have a tendency to disappear up its own ass (making the story overtly

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:09, 7 May 2023
Line 53:		Line 53:
	Being a highly successful series with an unique and interesting universe it is obvious that [[Games Workshop]] <s>stole</s> took inspiration from Dune like a [[Blood Ravens\|Blood Raven]] in an unlocked reliquary. While this topic is up for [[Skub\|debate]] the following were most likely borrowed from the Dune universe:		Being a highly successful series with an unique and interesting universe it is obvious that [[Games Workshop]] <s>stole</s> took inspiration from Dune like a [[Blood Ravens\|Blood Raven]] in an unlocked reliquary. While this topic is up for [[Skub\|debate]] the following were most likely borrowed from the Dune universe:

	* '''Close combat / Melee''': The Dune universe is close-combat-heavy because the Holtzman effect changed the face of warfare. This effect can be utilized to generate a man-sized field that can deflect matter that travels beyond a certain speed. This means that bullets are useless against people equipped with shields; this also means that air molecules can't easily pass through the shield, so you'd better get your fighting over with before you collapse from heatstroke and/or suffocate on your own CO2. "But there's [[Lasgun\|lasguns]] in Dune!" Yes, Timmy, there are, but when a laser beam hits a shield, the shooter, the target, and the surrounding landscape '''might''' be deleted in a nuclear explosion, so nobody tries it (the effect is also too unpredictable to be used deliberately - the explosion will either be too small or indistinguishable from an atomic weapon, and the use of atomics against humans is a ''big'' no-no in-universe). ~~Thus~~ swordsmanship has come back into style due to the high risk of using laser weapons, resulting in a reliance on melee combat, and projectile weapons are mostly represented by rather ineffective slow-pellet tranquilizer guns. This story element was due to author appeal, as Herbert wanted close combat in the story.		* '''Close combat / Melee''': The Dune universe is close-combat-heavy because the Holtzman effect changed the face of warfare. This effect can be utilized to generate a man-sized field that can deflect matter that travels beyond a certain speed. This means that bullets are useless against people equipped with shields; this also means that air molecules can't easily pass through the shield, so you'd better get your fighting over with before you collapse from heatstroke and/or suffocate on your own CO2. "But there's [[Lasgun\|lasguns]] in Dune!" Yes, Timmy, there are, but when a laser beam hits a shield, the shooter, the target, and the surrounding landscape '''might''' be deleted in a nuclear explosion, so nobody tries it (the effect is also too unpredictable to be used deliberately - the explosion will either be too small or indistinguishable from an atomic weapon, and the use of atomics against humans is a ''big'' no-no in-universe). If your thinking that seems like a completely stupid idea to use a technology that even remotely has the potential to destroy everything in a nukes blast range just for a personal defense device, honestly your not wrong. Meta-wise its obviously an attempt to justify why no one attempts large scale ranged weapons but the concept is screaming for you not to apply to much logic to implementation. Anyways, swordsmanship has come back into style due to the high risk of using laser weapons, resulting in a reliance on melee combat, and projectile weapons are mostly represented by rather ineffective slow-pellet tranquilizer guns. This story element was due to author appeal, as Herbert wanted close combat in the story.
	:: Interestingly, this aspect is rather downplayed in the actual book, since it mostly takes place on Arrakis and using shields in the Arrakis desert will attract very angry sandworms straight to your location. Fremen were as adept with projectile weapons as they were at melee combat, and they were most interested in learning Weirding Way (magic super kung-fu developed by the Bene Gesserit, which was replaced by sonic weapons in Lynch movie) because it allowed them to operate in Arrakis cities without their signature crys-knives. Ultimately the Atreides used the same tactics as the Soviets in Vietnam and Americans in Afghanistan - give anti-aircraft missiles to the natives and enjoy the fireworks.		:: Interestingly, this aspect is rather downplayed in the actual book, since it mostly takes place on Arrakis and using shields in the Arrakis desert will attract very angry sandworms straight to your location. Fremen were as adept with projectile weapons as they were at melee combat, and they were most interested in learning Weirding Way (magic super kung-fu developed by the Bene Gesserit, which was replaced by sonic weapons in Lynch movie) because it allowed them to operate in Arrakis cities without their signature crys-knives. Ultimately the Atreides used the same tactics as the Soviets in Vietnam and Americans in Afghanistan - give anti-aircraft missiles to the natives and enjoy the fireworks.
			:::On top of all this the technology completely vanishes from the story post GEOM after Leto outlawed them due to (shockingly) how dangerous they are to people around them. Potentially maybe even Herbert himself realizing how dumb it actually is to use a technology in universe that could accidently destroy a city just for personal defense.
	* '''[[Navigator\|Navigators]]''': The Dune universe has [[Navigator\|Navigators]] which are ''slightly'' similar to their 40k counterparts. Only source of ship travel? Check. Highly mutated? Check. Mutation worsens over time? Check. Some sort of magical powers, but somehow different from everyone else's? Check. Living outside of all political powers? Check. Having their own political agendas? Check. Secretive? Double fucking check. Basically they are the exact same thing with the small exceptions that they need spice to live. Also, Herbert may have cribbed them from the 1950 Cordwainer Smith story [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanners_Live_in_Vain "Scanners Live in Vain"].		* '''[[Navigator\|Navigators]]''': The Dune universe has [[Navigator\|Navigators]] which are ''slightly'' similar to their 40k counterparts. Only source of ship travel? Check. Highly mutated? Check. Mutation worsens over time? Check. Some sort of magical powers, but somehow different from everyone else's? Check. Living outside of all political powers? Check. Having their own political agendas? Check. Secretive? Double fucking check. Basically they are the exact same thing with the small exceptions that they need spice to live. Also, Herbert may have cribbed them from the 1950 Cordwainer Smith story [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanners_Live_in_Vain "Scanners Live in Vain"].
	* '''No AI allowed''': On the surface, it is the same story: AI goes bad, tries to conquer humanity, gets its virtual arse kicked, and is subsequently forbidden. However, Dune is a little bit more restrictive when it comes to [[Cogitator\|Cogitators]] or [[Servitor\|Servitors]] and uses humans hyper-trained from birth (and fucked up on drugs) known as "Mentats" as supercomputers instead. In the end though the backstory and the outcome is very much not the same. It's not clear what really happened during the Butlerian Jihad, but it's strongly hinted that humans "revolted" against the machines because of what the usage of machines meant for society and not because the evil machines turned against humanity. This is way more interesting than the common "evil terminator uprising" trope. The outcome is also very different in that the Butlerian Jihad unchains the true development of the human mind and body, ultimately far surpassing any AI capability. The ultimate message being that instead of relying on building better computers to do certain tasks, [[Humanity Fuck Yeah\|build a better human to do them instead, and render computers and AI obsolete when compared to the computational power of a trained human.]] All the while, the accelerated evolution of Humanity to fulfill this goal [[Grimdark\|twists and contorts what it means to be human, to the absolutely horrifying breaking point.]]		* '''No AI allowed''': On the surface, it is the same story: AI goes bad, tries to conquer humanity, gets its virtual arse kicked, and is subsequently forbidden. However, Dune is a little bit more restrictive when it comes to [[Cogitator\|Cogitators]] or [[Servitor\|Servitors]] and uses humans hyper-trained from birth (and fucked up on drugs) known as "Mentats" as supercomputers instead. In the end though the backstory and the outcome is very much not the same. It's not clear what really happened during the Butlerian Jihad, but it's strongly hinted that humans "revolted" against the machines because of what the usage of machines meant for society and not because the evil machines turned against humanity. This is way more interesting than the common "evil terminator uprising" trope. The outcome is also very different in that the Butlerian Jihad unchains the true development of the human mind and body, ultimately far surpassing any AI capability. The ultimate message being that instead of relying on building better computers to do certain tasks, [[Humanity Fuck Yeah\|build a better human to do them instead, and render computers and AI obsolete when compared to the computational power of a trained human.]] All the while, the accelerated evolution of Humanity to fulfill this goal [[Grimdark\|twists and contorts what it means to be human, to the absolutely horrifying breaking point.]]