Epic Levels - Revision history

imported>Administrator: 32 revisions imported

2023-06-21T04:05:41Z

32 revisions imported

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1d4chan>KeronKnight: /* Pathfinder */

2023-06-20T20:09:02Z

Pathfinder

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	Paizo's screw-ups didn't stop third party companies from taking a crack at the system, however, and in Pathfinder's usual trend these companies actually improved upon the system a great deal. Legendary Games' Mythic Heroes' Handbook offered revised rules for Mythic that nerfed the absurd rocket tag of the system into viability. They also provided options for many of the classes that Paizo left behind and re-organized many features so that classes were no longer locked into a specific path. This was successful enough that they put out several more books in this line and ''Legendary Planet'', a full mythic adventure path.		Paizo's screw-ups didn't stop third party companies from taking a crack at the system, however, and in Pathfinder's usual trend these companies actually improved upon the system a great deal. Legendary Games' Mythic Heroes' Handbook offered revised rules for Mythic that nerfed the absurd rocket tag of the system into viability. They also provided options for many of the classes that Paizo left behind and re-organized many features so that classes were no longer locked into a specific path. This was successful enough that they put out several more books in this line and ''Legendary Planet'', a full mythic adventure path.

			In Pathfinder 2E… there’s no Mythic Rules, and no Templates at all for Monsters, let alone Mythic ones. Rules still exist via third party sources on Pathfinder Infinite such as Mythic Powers, but otherwise no Epic Level stuff for the system. But hey, Legendary Planet was updated for PF2E, so maybe one day a third party will make a proper physical Mythic Handbook?

	The [[Wrath of the Righteous]] video game also has its own take on the Mythic Path system.		The [[Wrath of the Righteous]] video game also has its own take on the Mythic Path system.

imported>Administrator: 1 revision imported

2023-06-18T23:37:38Z

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1d4chan>ThatOneBruvva at 18:41, 14 May 2023

2023-05-14T18:41:16Z

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	The [[Wrath of the Righteous]] video game also has its own take on the Mythic Path system.		The [[Wrath of the Righteous]] video game also has its own take on the Mythic Path system.

			[[Category: Dungeons & Dragons]]
			[[Category:Game Mechanics]]
			[[Category:Dungeons & Dragons Mechanics]]

1d4chan>SpectralTime at 14:57, 17 October 2021

2021-10-17T14:57:09Z

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	The one thing that people actually use out of these rules are the skill uses, in large part because they aren't actually tied to epic levels and can be made by normal characters (albeit with some focus required). With very high ability in a skill a character can create truly impressive effects. The most infamous uses are the [[Diplomancer]], able to make any enemy a fanatic ally in seconds, and Escape Artist allowing you to go through spaces smaller than your head, potentially even into other people. There's even uses for skills that should have been in the core book like hiding someone or avoiding suspicion when asking for information.		The one thing that people actually use out of these rules are the skill uses, in large part because they aren't actually tied to epic levels and can be made by normal characters (albeit with some focus required). With very high ability in a skill a character can create truly impressive effects. The most infamous uses are the [[Diplomancer]], able to make any enemy a fanatic ally in seconds, and Escape Artist allowing you to go through spaces smaller than your head, potentially even into other people. There's even uses for skills that should have been in the core book like hiding someone or avoiding suspicion when asking for information.

	4E avoided segregating epic rules and instead used [[Epic Destiny\|Epic Destinies]] to control high level progression.		4E avoided segregating epic rules and instead used [[Epic Destiny\|Epic Destinies]] to control high level progression. It's probably the best ruleset for "epic levels" any edition's ever had.

	When the wheel of time turned and brought us 5th Edition D&D, the entire Epic system was replaced. Gone are Epic Levels and Epic Spells. In their place is the new Epic Boon system. When a character hits level 20, they reach something called the Level Capstone, which prevents them from levelling further. However, they continue to gain XP. When they reach 405,000 XP, they can gain an Epic Boon, to reflect how they have slowly started to become one with the Weave of magic that keeps reality in line in the D&D multiverse. There is no limit to them, and you get another every 50,000 XP after the first one. These Boons are quite varied. Some are junk, like getting a Feat (which some classes have had nine chances to do already), while others are amazing, like getting six more spell slots or becoming immune to hunger. Some are just weird, and allow the character to do something their class would normally never get to do, like a Bard getting a Paladin's immunity to disease.		When the wheel of time turned and brought us 5th Edition D&D, the entire Epic system was replaced. Gone are Epic Levels and Epic Spells. In their place is the new Epic Boon system. When a character hits level 20, they reach something called the Level Capstone, which prevents them from levelling further. However, they continue to gain XP. When they reach 405,000 XP, they can gain an Epic Boon, to reflect how they have slowly started to become one with the Weave of magic that keeps reality in line in the D&D multiverse. There is no limit to them, and you get another every 50,000 XP after the first one. These Boons are quite varied. Some are junk, like getting a Feat (which some classes have had nine chances to do already), while others are amazing, like getting six more spell slots or becoming immune to hunger. Some are just weird, and allow the character to do something their class would normally never get to do, like a Bard getting a Paladin's immunity to disease.

1d4chan>Zimriel at 14:00, 2 September 2021

2021-09-02T14:00:49Z

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	[[Frank Mentzer]] staunched the bleeding with the [[Companion Set]] rules... somewhat. Ruling dominions and grand-strategy, hey, we'll take it; and we liked it. But even he had to come up with a [[Basic Dungeons & Dragons\|Master Set]], which he sketched out as the path to [[Mystaran Immortal\|Immortality]]. Sorry, lads; the M- series of modules were ([[M5: Talons of Night\|with one or two exceptions]]) ass. ''All three'' of the I- series were grainy polypey rectum.		[[Frank Mentzer]] staunched the bleeding with the [[Companion Set]] rules... somewhat. Ruling dominions and grand-strategy, hey, we'll take it; and we liked it. But even he had to come up with a [[Basic Dungeons & Dragons\|Master Set]], which he sketched out as the path to [[Mystaran Immortal\|Immortality]]. Sorry, lads; the M- series of modules were ([[M5: Talons of Night\|with one or two exceptions]]) ass. ''All three'' of the I- series were grainy polypey rectum.

	And no, Garybros; [[Bloodstone Pass]] did ''not'' get this job done. [[Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition]] held itself to the AD&D tradition so tapped out at 20.		And no, Garybros; [[Bloodstone Pass]] did ''not'' get this job done. Neither did [[DSR4: Valley of Dust and Fire]]. [[Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition]] held itself to the AD&D tradition so tapped out at 20.

	Eventually 3e players wanted a Master Set of their own so Wizards printed the ''[[Epic Level Handbook]]'' for them - complete with apotheosis! Problem: it was retardedly broken.		Eventually 3e players wanted a Master Set of their own so Wizards printed the ''[[Epic Level Handbook]]'' for them - complete with apotheosis! Problem: it was retardedly broken.

1d4chan>Zimriel at 22:33, 1 September 2021

2021-09-01T22:33:47Z

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	And no, Garybros; [[Bloodstone Pass]] did ''not'' get this job done. [[Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition]] held itself to the AD&D tradition so tapped out at 20.		And no, Garybros; [[Bloodstone Pass]] did ''not'' get this job done. [[Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition]] held itself to the AD&D tradition so tapped out at 20.

	Eventually 3e players wanted a ~~Masters~~ Set of their own so Wizards printed the ''[[Epic Level Handbook]]'' for them~~. It~~ was retardedly broken~~, and~~ hated martials even more than normal 3E. While epic level Wizards got feats that could quicken every spell for free, cast more spells than 1+1 quickened, or use "epic spellcasting" (more on that mess in a bit), a Fighter got feats that gave him +4 damage '''if the target was within 30 feet'''. Fighters didn't even get higher attack bonus than anyone else when advancing past 20!		Eventually 3e players wanted a Master Set of their own so Wizards printed the ''[[Epic Level Handbook]]'' for them - complete with apotheosis! Problem: it was retardedly broken.

			The ''Handbook'' hated martials even more than normal 3E. While epic level Wizards got feats that could quicken every spell for free, cast more spells than 1+1 quickened, or use "epic spellcasting" (more on that mess in a bit), a Fighter got feats that gave him +4 damage '''if the target was within 30 feet'''. Fighters didn't even get higher attack bonus than anyone else when advancing past 20!

	Perhaps the biggest mess is epic spells. "Despite their power, epic spells still follow the basic rules for casting spells, except as specifically noted otherwise.", with the "noted otherwise" being pretty much everything except how Dispel Magic works on them. Unlike normal spells, epic spells are all created by the player (though there's a handful of really terrible examples). Not the player character, the ''player''. Epic spell are essentially a big custom spell system that you need to meet a skill DC (very easy to munchkin to a far higher level than intended) to make and use. Unlike most "custom ___" systems, these aren't suggestions or guidelines ([[Rule Zero\|except in the way all rules are]]), so a caster can do anything they can get a high enough skill check for.		Perhaps the biggest mess is epic spells. "Despite their power, epic spells still follow the basic rules for casting spells, except as specifically noted otherwise.", with the "noted otherwise" being pretty much everything except how Dispel Magic works on them. Unlike normal spells, epic spells are all created by the player (though there's a handful of really terrible examples). Not the player character, the ''player''. Epic spell are essentially a big custom spell system that you need to meet a skill DC (very easy to munchkin to a far higher level than intended) to make and use. Unlike most "custom ___" systems, these aren't suggestions or guidelines ([[Rule Zero\|except in the way all rules are]]), so a caster can do anything they can get a high enough skill check for.

1d4chan>Zimriel at 22:26, 1 September 2021

2021-09-01T22:26:46Z

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	Honestly the system was showing its strain even at around 9th, where the mage spells (especially) start getting [[Munchkin]], and also where the rest of such a party has major loot including (in AD&D) [[artifact]]s. And, you know... what's ''next'' for a player who's bored with bashing the same sort of monsters just at higher levels?		Honestly the system was showing its strain even at around 9th, where the mage spells (especially) start getting [[Munchkin]], and also where the rest of such a party has major loot including (in AD&D) [[artifact]]s. And, you know... what's ''next'' for a player who's bored with bashing the same sort of monsters just at higher levels?

	[[Frank Mentzer]] staunched the bleeding with the [[Companion Set]] rules... somewhat. Ruling dominions and grand-strategy, hey, we'll take it; and we liked it. But even he had to come up with a [[Basic Dungeons & Dragons\|~~Masters~~ Set]], which he sketched out as the path to [[Mystaran Immortal\|Immortality]]. Sorry, lads; the M- series of modules were ([[M5: Talons of Night\|with one or two exceptions]]) ass. ''All three'' of the I- series were grainy polypey rectum.		[[Frank Mentzer]] staunched the bleeding with the [[Companion Set]] rules... somewhat. Ruling dominions and grand-strategy, hey, we'll take it; and we liked it. But even he had to come up with a [[Basic Dungeons & Dragons\|Master Set]], which he sketched out as the path to [[Mystaran Immortal\|Immortality]]. Sorry, lads; the M- series of modules were ([[M5: Talons of Night\|with one or two exceptions]]) ass. ''All three'' of the I- series were grainy polypey rectum.

	And no, Garybros; [[Bloodstone Pass]] did ''not'' get this job done. [[Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition]] held itself to the AD&D tradition so tapped out at 20.		And no, Garybros; [[Bloodstone Pass]] did ''not'' get this job done. [[Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition]] held itself to the AD&D tradition so tapped out at 20.

1d4chan>Zimriel at 22:14, 1 September 2021

2021-09-01T22:14:45Z

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	'''Epic Levels''' is the [[Dungeons & Dragons]] catch-all for whatever the mortal party can do above where the first-edition [[AD&D]] [[Player's Handbook]] ends - which is 20th level. D&D has repeatedly failed here.		'''Epic Levels''' is the [[Dungeons & Dragons]] catch-all for whatever the mortal party can do above where the first-edition [[AD&D]] [[Player's Handbook]] ends - which is 20th level. D&D has repeatedly failed here.

	Honestly the system was showing its strain even at around 9th, where the mage spells (especially) start getting [[Munchkin]], and also where the rest of such a party has major loot including (in AD&D) [[artifact]]s. [[Frank Mentzer]] staunched the bleeding with the [[Companion Set]] rules... somewhat. But ~~then~~ he had to come up with a [[Basic Dungeons & Dragons\|Masters Set]], ~~with a~~ path to [[Mystaran Immortal\|Immortality]]. Sorry, lads; the M- series of modules were ([[M5: Talons of Night\|with one or two exceptions]]) ass. ''All three'' of the I- series were grainy polypey rectum.		Honestly the system was showing its strain even at around 9th, where the mage spells (especially) start getting [[Munchkin]], and also where the rest of such a party has major loot including (in AD&D) [[artifact]]s. And, you know... what's ''next'' for a player who's bored with bashing the same sort of monsters just at higher levels?

			[[Frank Mentzer]] staunched the bleeding with the [[Companion Set]] rules... somewhat. Ruling dominions and grand-strategy, hey, we'll take it; and we liked it. But even he had to come up with a [[Basic Dungeons & Dragons\|Masters Set]], which he sketched out as the path to [[Mystaran Immortal\|Immortality]]. Sorry, lads; the M- series of modules were ([[M5: Talons of Night\|with one or two exceptions]]) ass. ''All three'' of the I- series were grainy polypey rectum.

	And no, Garybros; [[Bloodstone Pass]] did ''not'' get this job done. [[Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition]] held itself to the AD&D tradition so tapped out at 20.		And no, Garybros; [[Bloodstone Pass]] did ''not'' get this job done. [[Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition]] held itself to the AD&D tradition so tapped out at 20.

1d4chan>Zimriel at 22:02, 1 September 2021

2021-09-01T22:02:01Z

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	'''Epic Levels''' is the [[Dungeons & Dragons]] catch-all for whatever the mortal party can do above where the first-edition [[AD&D]] [[~~Players~~ Handbook]] ends - which is 20th level. D&D has repeatedly failed here.		'''Epic Levels''' is the [[Dungeons & Dragons]] catch-all for whatever the mortal party can do above where the first-edition [[AD&D]] [[Player's Handbook]] ends - which is 20th level. D&D has repeatedly failed here.

	Honestly the system was showing its strain even at around 9th, where the mage spells (especially) start getting [[Munchkin]], and also where the rest of such a party has major loot including (in AD&D) [[artifact]]s. [[Frank Mentzer]] staunched the bleeding with the [[Companion Set]] rules... somewhat. But then he had to come up with a [[Basic Dungeons & Dragons\|Masters Set]], with a path to [[Mystaran Immortal\|Immortality]]. Sorry, lads; the M- series of modules were ([[M5: Talons of Night\|with one or two exceptions]]) ass. ''All three'' of the I- series were grainy polypey rectum.		Honestly the system was showing its strain even at around 9th, where the mage spells (especially) start getting [[Munchkin]], and also where the rest of such a party has major loot including (in AD&D) [[artifact]]s. [[Frank Mentzer]] staunched the bleeding with the [[Companion Set]] rules... somewhat. But then he had to come up with a [[Basic Dungeons & Dragons\|Masters Set]], with a path to [[Mystaran Immortal\|Immortality]]. Sorry, lads; the M- series of modules were ([[M5: Talons of Night\|with one or two exceptions]]) ass. ''All three'' of the I- series were grainy polypey rectum.