Isekai - Revision history

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2023-06-21T16:01:03Z

349 revisions imported

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104.220.162.108: /* So, are there any actually good Isekai? */

2023-06-19T13:44:42Z

So, are there any actually good Isekai?

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:44, 19 June 2023
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	<small>Well, actually "no, but actually kinda yes", but since that question is such an obvious setup for a joke...</small>		<small>Well, actually "no, but actually kinda yes", but since that question is such an obvious setup for a joke...</small>

	More seriously, Isekai, like any genre, is subject to Sturgeon's Law: 90% of any genre is crap. That percentage can go up if we're talking about works that are focused more on filling out a checklist than telling an interesting story, and the market pressures on Isekai results in a lot of checklists that authors feel they need to fill their works with. That being said, there are works that at least try to bring some actual originality to the genre, and some that are fairly good. [[Skub\|Lists of the two can be wildly different]] so we won't list them here~~. Mainly~~ because we're not [[TV Tropes]], and because we have an [[approved anime]] page for that kind of shit.		More seriously, Isekai, like any genre, is subject to Sturgeon's Law: 90% of any genre is crap. That percentage can go up if we're talking about works that are focused more on filling out a checklist than telling an interesting story, and the market pressures on Isekai results in a lot of checklists that authors feel they need to fill their works with. That being said, there are works that at least try to bring some actual originality to the genre, and some that are fairly good. [[Skub\|Lists of the two can be wildly different]] so we won't list them here, mainly because we're not [[TV Tropes]], and because we have an [[approved anime]] page for that kind of shit.

	<!-- And no, we're not interested in listing off the bad ones, either. Again, not TVtropes. -->		<!-- And no, we're not interested in listing off the bad ones, either. Again, not TVtropes. -->
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	BUT...		BUT...

	Before they get turned to Anime, a lot of Isekai start as light novels, the Japanese sorta-equivalent to Western Juvenile/YA fiction. Think back to how many "Teenager fights against Dystopic Government through mandated Survival Games" books came out after the Hunger Games. Isekai is literally the Japanese equivalent of the phenomenon, and they get away with it because, well, you're consuming content for kids, even the edgier/~~subversion~~ isekais. Their cut-and-paste nature is also a cynical byproduct of current anime production, too. Just like how MCU movies are the same shit, different hero money-printers, the majority of anime produced today are actually quite short, running for a single cour (10-12 episodes, often with a 13th added to the Blu-Ray) and usually lucky to last one whole season (24 episodes). At best, they'll get to maybe the third volume/book of the series. And merely by the fact that they're TV adaptations of a novel series, they often leave out potentially important details or subtlety. They're literally filler shows, like mid-season replacements in American TV, and so cookie cutter stories and design makes sense: they're mostly made to fill timeslots during the off-season, keep viewer interest, and generate merchandise while the studio works on the ''real moneymakers''.		Before they get turned to Anime, a lot of Isekai start as light novels, the Japanese sorta-equivalent to Western Juvenile/YA fiction. Think back to how many "Teenager fights against Dystopic Government through mandated Survival Games" books came out after the Hunger Games. Isekai is literally the Japanese equivalent of the phenomenon, and they get away with it because, well, you're consuming content for kids, even the edgier/subversive isekais. Their cut-and-paste nature is also a cynical byproduct of current anime production, too. Just like how MCU movies are the same shit, different hero money-printers, the majority of anime produced today are actually quite short, running for a single [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cour cour] (10-12 episodes, often with a 13th added to the Blu-Ray) and usually lucky to last one whole season (24 episodes). At best, they'll get to maybe the third volume/book of the series. And merely by the fact that they're TV adaptations of a novel series, they often leave out potentially important details or subtlety. They're literally filler shows, like mid-season replacements in American TV, and so cookie cutter stories and design makes sense: they're mostly made to fill timeslots during the off-season, keep viewer interest, and generate merchandise while the studio works on the ''real moneymakers''.

	If you're into Isekai, it's probably because of its light-heartedness and fantasy-fulfillment, being basically fantasy slice-of-life that's meant to fill you with fluffy feelings. This is pretty much what makes /tg/ cringe, since a lot of the main characters are OP mary sues who will never struggle in their quest for Noblebright (or in some cases, plunging the world to Grimdark).		If you're into Isekai, it's probably because of its light-heartedness and fantasy-fulfillment, being basically fantasy slice-of-life that's meant to fill you with fluffy feelings. This is pretty much what makes /tg/ cringe, since a lot of the main characters are OP mary sues who will never struggle in their quest for Noblebright (or in some cases, plunging the world to Grimdark).

	But ultimately if you are watching/reading one that can be considered "crappy" but you are enjoying it then what's the problem? It's not like you should actually care about what /tg/ (or anyone for that matter) thinks about how you enjoy your hobby, as long as you don't try to hard sell it to people to the point of annoyance or get [[Butthurt\|~~ferociously~~ angry]] when someone points out what they see as problems with it. Go ahead and enjoy; just being at /tg/ or this wiki to begin with shows you never cared really much if something was [[Horus_Heresy\|badly]] [[H.P._Lovecraft\|written]], [[Warhammer:_Age_of_Sigmar\|awfully]] [[World_of_Darkness\|designed]], [[Warhammer_40,000\|grim]][[Xeelee_Sequence\|derpy]], [[Dungeons_%26_Dragons\|mainstream]], [[Warhammer_Fantasy_Battle\|generic]] or [[Flames_of_War\|lacking]] a [[Team_Yankee\|soul]] to begin with.		But ultimately if you are watching/reading one that can be considered "crappy" but you are enjoying it then what's the problem? It's not like you should actually care about what /tg/ (or anyone for that matter) thinks about how you enjoy your hobby, as long as you don't try to hard sell it to people to the point of annoyance or get [[Butthurt\|shriekingly angry]] when someone points out what they see as problems with it. Go ahead and enjoy; just being at /tg/ or this wiki to begin with shows you never cared really much if something was [[Horus_Heresy\|badly]] [[H.P._Lovecraft\|written]], [[Warhammer:_Age_of_Sigmar\|awfully]] [[World_of_Darkness\|designed]], [[Warhammer_40,000\|grim]][[Xeelee_Sequence\|derpy]], [[Dungeons_%26_Dragons\|mainstream]], [[Warhammer_Fantasy_Battle\|generic]] or [[Flames_of_War\|lacking]] a [[Team_Yankee\|soul]] to begin with.

	==Gallery==		==Gallery==

104.220.162.108: /* So, are there any actually good Isekai? */

2023-06-19T13:42:25Z

So, are there any actually good Isekai?

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:42, 19 June 2023
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	BUT...		BUT...

	Before they get turned to Anime, a lot of Isekai start as light novels, the Japanese sorta-equivalent to Western Juvenile/YA fiction. Think back to how many "Teenager fights against Dystopic Government through mandated Survival Games" books came out after the Hunger Games. Isekai is literally the Japanese equivalent of the phenomenon, and they get away with it because, well, you're consuming content for kids, even the edgier/subversion isekais. Their cut-and-paste nature is also a cynical byproduct of current anime production, too. Just like how MCU movies are the same shit, different hero, money-printers, the majority of anime produced today are actually quite short, running for a single cour (10-12 episodes, often with a 13th added to the Blu-Ray) and ~~are~~ usually lucky to last one whole season(24 episodes). At best, they'll get to maybe the third volume/book of the series'. And merely by the fact that they're TV adaptations of a novel series, they often leave out potentially important details or subtlety. They're literally filler shows, like mid-season replacements in American TV, and so ~~having~~ cookie cutter stories and design makes sense~~. This is because~~ they're mostly made to fill timeslots during the off-season, keep viewer interest, and generate merchandise while the studio works on the ''real moneymakers'' ~~that go for dozens of episodes and across multiple seasons~~.		Before they get turned to Anime, a lot of Isekai start as light novels, the Japanese sorta-equivalent to Western Juvenile/YA fiction. Think back to how many "Teenager fights against Dystopic Government through mandated Survival Games" books came out after the Hunger Games. Isekai is literally the Japanese equivalent of the phenomenon, and they get away with it because, well, you're consuming content for kids, even the edgier/subversion isekais. Their cut-and-paste nature is also a cynical byproduct of current anime production, too. Just like how MCU movies are the same shit, different hero money-printers, the majority of anime produced today are actually quite short, running for a single cour (10-12 episodes, often with a 13th added to the Blu-Ray) and usually lucky to last one whole season (24 episodes). At best, they'll get to maybe the third volume/book of the series. And merely by the fact that they're TV adaptations of a novel series, they often leave out potentially important details or subtlety. They're literally filler shows, like mid-season replacements in American TV, and so cookie cutter stories and design makes sense: they're mostly made to fill timeslots during the off-season, keep viewer interest, and generate merchandise while the studio works on the ''real moneymakers''.

	If ~~youre~~ into Isekai, it's probably because of ~~it's~~ light-heartedness and fantasy-fulfillment, being basically fantasy slice-of-life that's meant to fill you with fluffy feelings. This is pretty much what makes /tg/ cringe, since a lot of the main characters are OP mary sues who will never struggle in their quest for Noblebright (or in some cases, plunging the world to Grimdark).		If you're into Isekai, it's probably because of its light-heartedness and fantasy-fulfillment, being basically fantasy slice-of-life that's meant to fill you with fluffy feelings. This is pretty much what makes /tg/ cringe, since a lot of the main characters are OP mary sues who will never struggle in their quest for Noblebright (or in some cases, plunging the world to Grimdark).

			But ultimately if you are watching/reading one that can be considered "crappy" but you are enjoying it then what's the problem? It's not like you should actually care about what /tg/ (or anyone for that matter) thinks about how you enjoy your hobby, as long as you don't try to hard sell it to people to the point of annoyance or get [[Butthurt\|ferociously angry]] when someone points out what they see as problems with it. Go ahead and enjoy; just being at /tg/ or this wiki to begin with shows you never cared really much if something was [[Horus_Heresy\|badly]] [[H.P._Lovecraft\|written]], [[Warhammer:_Age_of_Sigmar\|awfully]] [[World_of_Darkness\|designed]], [[Warhammer_40,000\|grim]][[Xeelee_Sequence\|derpy]], [[Dungeons_%26_Dragons\|mainstream]], [[Warhammer_Fantasy_Battle\|generic]] or [[Flames_of_War\|lacking]] a [[Team_Yankee\|soul]] to begin with.
	~~Again,~~ ultimately, if you are watching one that can be considered "crappy" ~~yet~~ you are enjoying it then what's the problem? It's not like you should actually care about what /tg/ or anyone for that matter thinks about how you enjoy your hobby, as long as you don't try to hard sell it to people to the point of annoyance or ~~spam 20 posts at the board just because~~ it ~~has your particular taste of waifu/fetish/self-insert/i-am-working-hard-not-to-be-edgy-or-mary-sue you should~~ enjoy ~~it,~~ just being at /tg/ or this wiki to begin with shows you never cared really much if something was [[Horus_Heresy\|badly]] [[H.P._Lovecraft\|written]], [[Warhammer:_Age_of_Sigmar\|awfully]] [[World_of_Darkness\|designed]], [[Warhammer_40,000\|grim]][[Xeelee_Sequence\|derpy]], [[Dungeons_%26_Dragons\|mainstream]], [[Warhammer_Fantasy_Battle\|generic]] or [[Flames_of_War\|lacking]] a [[Team_Yankee\|soul]] to begin with.

	==Gallery==		==Gallery==

104.220.162.108: /* More General Gripes */

2023-06-19T13:37:09Z

More General Gripes

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:37, 19 June 2023
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	===More General Gripes===		===More General Gripes===
	* You ever notice how Isekai titles are always extremely long and ridiculously specific? ~~Turns out, apparently~~ Japanese adolescents are too busy to read the blurbs on light novels and manga, so they just put the blurb right in the title. ~~The dumber, the better!~~		* You ever notice how Isekai titles are always extremely long and ridiculously specific? Apparently Japanese adolescents are too busy to read the blurbs on light novels and manga, so they just put the blurb right in the title. How lazy can you get?
	* While many stories are just copycats of one another, some will ''attempt'' to put an "original spin" on the genre, usually by adding a gimmick, such as the protagonist being a LITERAL VENDING MACHINE or a slime that can absorb powers. If done well, ~~then~~ the story ~~still~~ has some value in being interesting and exploring otherwise ignored facets of an overused genre. Done poorly, it comes across as just plain tiresome, especially if the gimmick is the only thing keeping the story afloat when the characters and plot fail to impress.		* While many stories are just copycats of one another, some will ''attempt'' to put an "original spin" on the genre, usually by adding a gimmick, such as the protagonist being a LITERAL VENDING MACHINE or a slime that can absorb powers. If done well, the story has some value in being interesting and exploring otherwise ignored facets of an overused genre. Done poorly, it comes across as just plain tiresome, especially if the gimmick is the only thing keeping the story afloat when the characters and plot fail to impress.
	* [[weeaboo\|O MY GLORIOUS NIPPON STEEL FOLDED OVER 9000 TIMES]]. Basically, just to show how self ~~righteous~~ superior the Japanese and only the Japanese are compared to the other world. Generally, it involves the reincarnated protagonist ~~lusting~~ for their Japanese ~~foods~~ and introducing amazing new flavors to the fantasy world: <s>jelly donuts</s> rice balls, soy sauce, and miso paste ~~being~~ most common. Despite Japan and Asia in general being a huge market for Western fast-food chains, the protagonists are always treated as big fucking deals for introducing soy sauce over rice. [[Katanas are Underpowered in d20\|Katanas are also introduced in the other world to prove their superiority]], though OP sword bullshit is the norm for Western and Eastern fiction alike.		* [[weeaboo\|O MY GLORIOUS NIPPON STEEL FOLDED OVER 9000 TIMES]]. Basically, just to show how self-righteously superior the Japanese and only the Japanese are compared to the other world. Generally, it involves the reincarnated protagonist being homesick for their Japanese food and introducing amazing new flavors to the fantasy world: <s>jelly donuts</s> rice balls, soy sauce, and miso paste are the most common. Despite Japan and Asia in general being a huge market for Western fast-food chains, the protagonists are always treated as big fucking deals for introducing soy sauce over rice. [[Katanas are Underpowered in d20\|Katanas are also introduced in the other world to prove their superiority]], though exaggerated sword bullshit is the norm for Western and Eastern fiction alike.
	** GATE is worth calling out here as the worst or at least one of the most infamous examples of this, where the Japanese military in a medieval fantasy world is wreaking havoc with their modern weaponry against villains with single-digit IQ or self-preservation. This is not exactly unreasonable nor immersive breaking to imagine, even for the decidedly modest Japanese Self Defense Force, but it’s taken to the point where it comes across as a distasteful, tone deaf, juvenile power fantasy and a cheesy (but icky, like spoiled brie) recruitment ad targeting otaku: "Want to be a real hero? We kill more <s>orcs</s> fantasy Romans before 9AM than most <s>Paladins</s> barbarians do all day!" Which is expected with the author being a [[Blood Pact\|right-wing JSDF veteran]]. Call it "Hard Otaku Making Hard Decisions (While Hard)".		** GATE is worth calling out here as the worst or at least one of the most infamous examples of this, where the Japanese military in a medieval fantasy world is wreaking havoc with their modern weaponry against villains with single-digit IQ or self-preservation. This is not exactly unreasonable nor immersive breaking to imagine, even for the decidedly modest Japanese Self Defense Force, but it’s taken to the point where it comes across as a distasteful, tone deaf, juvenile power fantasy and a cheesy (but icky, like spoiled brie) recruitment ad targeting otaku: "Want to be a real hero? We kill more <s>orcs</s> fantasy Romans before 9AM than most <s>Paladins</s> barbarians do all day!" Which is expected with the author being a [[Blood Pact\|right-wing JSDF veteran]]. Call it "Hard Otaku Making Hard Decisions (While Hard)".
	*"Japanese" language or Japanese traits (black hair, white skin) being something sacred or ancient or special in the isekai world. Usually used to mean that some "undecipherable script of the Ancients" is just 21st-century Japanese carved on a plaque somewhere without any further development. If the author is going for cheap [[Edgy\|edge]] boosts, anything related to the Japanese is a symptom of a curse or a demonic heritage. And it's just as stupid as African natives suddenly worshipping white people as gods.		*"Japanese" language or Japanese traits (black hair, white skin) being something sacred or ancient or special in the isekai world. Usually used to mean that some "undecipherable script of the Ancients" is just 21st-century Japanese carved on a plaque somewhere without any further development. If the author is going for cheap [[Edgy\|edge]] boosts, anything related to the Japanese is a symptom of a curse or a demonic heritage. And it's just as stupid as African natives suddenly worshipping white people as gods.
	* Some of the edgier Isekai have a tendency to deal with such serious issues as rape, [[slavery]], racism and genocide... which would be fine, if they didn't usually do so in such an immature, sociopathic and/or poorly handled way that you start to hate either the author's suspected age group, the whole nation of Japan (or whatever country produced it), or humanity in general just by association with this edgelord garbage.		* Some of the edgier Isekai have a tendency to deal with such serious issues as rape, [[slavery]], racism and genocide... which would be fine, if they didn't usually do so in such an immature, sociopathic and/or poorly handled way that you start to hate either the author's suspected age group, the whole nation of Japan (or whatever country produced it), or humanity in general just by association with this edgelord garbage.
	* Even worse are the ones that are blatantly hypocritical or edgy regarding darker issues of mankind. For example, slavery is depicted as an immaturely handled "bad thing" (It's ok to abuse ~~and~~ kill, ~~and~~ use up slaves in deadly forced labor if no good user buys them- even ancient societies had standards for such issues), but when the protagonist also invests himself in that practice, all of a sudden, it is considered okay since he is considered a 'hero' and therefore, a 'good guy'. Because gosh, what our MC is doing couldn't possibly be considered slavery since he treats his property with such care and tenderness... '''No.''' Fuck off with that gaslighting [[bullshit]]. Either slavery is a bad thing or a good thing, no in-betweens. You can't have your cake and eat it too, especially with extremely dark topics like this. To pull this stunt reeks of dishonesty and bad faith. It reaches ludicrous levels of retardation when a righteous and good kingdom with plenty of magic to bypass labor, complete with knights and paladins and kind kings, has a bustling, legal slave trade where women are so ill-kept it's counterproductive to their value, a vampire noble can buy and drain an entire stable of girls and the burnt corpses get discovered, and everyone shrugs it off an an oopsie.		* Even worse are the ones that are blatantly hypocritical or edgy regarding darker issues of mankind. For example, slavery is depicted as an immaturely handled "bad thing" (It's ok to abuse, kill, or use up slaves in deadly forced labor if no good user buys them- even ancient societies had standards for such issues), but when the protagonist also invests himself in that practice, all of a sudden, it is considered okay since he is considered a 'hero' and therefore, a 'good guy'. Because gosh, what our MC is doing couldn't possibly be considered slavery since he treats his property with such care and tenderness... '''No.''' Fuck off with that gaslighting [[bullshit]]. Either slavery is a bad thing or a good thing, no in-betweens. You can't have your cake and eat it too, especially with extremely dark topics like this. To pull this stunt reeks of dishonesty and bad faith. It reaches ludicrous levels of retardation when a righteous and good kingdom with plenty of magic to bypass labor, complete with knights and paladins and kind kings, has a bustling, legal slave trade where women are so ill-kept it's counterproductive to their value, a vampire noble can buy and drain an entire stable of girls and the burnt corpses get discovered, and everyone shrugs it off an an oopsie.
	* Constant reuse of the same mythological terms. Always expect to hear about the big gods of Olympus, always expect a half-assed version of Norse Mythology, and so on. This is especially egregious in any setting where you see multiple pantheons coexisting in the same area.		* Constant reuse of the same mythological terms. Always expect to hear about the big gods of Olympus, always expect a half-assed version of Norse Mythology, and so on. This is especially egregious in any setting where you see multiple pantheons coexisting in the same area.

104.220.162.108: /* Gripes about the protagonists */

2023-06-19T13:33:01Z

Gripes about the protagonists

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:33, 19 June 2023
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	* The protagonist frequently is overpowered in a way that puts him way ahead of his peers, despite lacking any useful combat, intellectual, or even social skills from his homeworld. Rarely does the protagonist have to put that much effort in overcoming his obstacles and is often deemed "The Chosen One" or "Special Blooded" by what amounts to GM fiat. Just like a unique snowflake.		* The protagonist frequently is overpowered in a way that puts him way ahead of his peers, despite lacking any useful combat, intellectual, or even social skills from his homeworld. Rarely does the protagonist have to put that much effort in overcoming his obstacles and is often deemed "The Chosen One" or "Special Blooded" by what amounts to GM fiat. Just like a unique snowflake.
	* Even more offensive protagonists will be actively unlikable or even outright repulsive, despite not suffering any consequences for it.		* Even more offensive protagonists will be actively unlikable or even outright repulsive, despite not suffering any consequences for it.
	* And on top of that, 99.9% of the time, the protagonist has an all-female <s>harem</s> party who hang on his every word. [[Mary Sue\|Is this starting to sound familiar?]] (Note, in particular, that usually these female party members exist purely to provide fanservice and be [[waifu]]ed. On top of this, they're fairly likely to be noticeably underdeveloped and/or cliched.) ~~And~~ this is not necessarily a bad thing, ~~but~~ there are countless examples of lazy writers going way too far with it and turning the characters into caricatures or pulling the rug out from under the readers and going from harem to vanilla romance. It's at the point where the openly pornographic isekais are actually an improvement because they don't pretend that said harem is anything ''but'' a collection of sex objects.		* And on top of that, 99.9% of the time, the protagonist has an all-female <s>harem</s> party who hang on his every word. [[Mary Sue\|Is this starting to sound familiar?]] (Note, in particular, that usually these female party members exist purely to provide fanservice and be [[waifu]]ed. On top of this, they're fairly likely to be noticeably underdeveloped and/or cliched.) While this is not necessarily a bad thing, there are countless examples of lazy writers going way too far with it and turning the characters into caricatures or pulling the rug out from under the readers and going from harem to vanilla romance. It's at the point where the openly pornographic isekais are actually an improvement because they don't pretend that said harem is anything ''but'' a collection of sex objects.
	** To further expand on the female character issue~~. Look~~, we in 1d4chan ''hate'' Mary Sues with a passion. But you know what is just as bad as a female Mary Sue? A soulless, living pair of tits. Since nearly none of the female characters in this sort of situation have any agency, they are literally just there for an unfunny boob joke or sexual harassment 'joke'. The end result is that your 'waifus' are boring and replaceable as fuck who are just as painfully blank ~~faced~~ as the protagonist ''and'' antagonist. In the end of the day, we like ~~our~~ characters who are interesting, tits or not, and parading around these characters like trophy wives when the protag most ''definitely'' did not do anything to ''earn'' their love and affection is insulting to our collective intelligence.		** To further expand on the female character issue: look, we in 1d4chan ''hate'' Mary Sues with a passion. But you know what is just as bad as a female Mary Sue? A soulless, living pair of tits. Since nearly none of the female characters in this sort of situation have any agency, they are literally just there for an unfunny boob joke or sexual harassment 'joke'. The end result is that your 'waifus' are boring and replaceable as fuck who are just as painfully blank as the protagonist ''and'' antagonist. In the end of the day, we like characters who are interesting, tits or not, and parading around these characters like trophy wives when the protag most ''definitely'' did not do anything to ''earn'' their love and affection is insulting to our collective intelligence.
	** This gets doubly, egregiously worse if said harem contains blatant [[Loli\|lolibait]] and that the author tries ([[Fail\|and always fails]]) to justify it by giving us tired-ass lame excuses like she is either a [[Bullshit\|thousand years old,]] [[Derp\|it is somehow considered legal in the setting,]] or worse of all, protag-kun is an actual [[Lorgar\|pedo or child molester]] but is somehow considered A-okay because he is now in the body of a [[Shota\|little boy.]] This in itself, is already considered atrocious, regardless of how unnecessary it is and that depicting such acts without even the strongest condemnation of it ''in-universe'', should raise the mother of all red flags on what the story is trying to tell us. But the stupid gets worse when certain zealous fans do the mother of all mental gymnastics to [[EPIC FAIL\|defend this shit.]] No bitch, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a ''fucking duck''.		** This gets doubly, egregiously worse if said harem contains blatant [[Loli\|lolibait]] and that the author tries ([[Fail\|and always fails]]) to justify it by giving us tired-ass lame excuses like she is either a [[Bullshit\|thousand years old,]] [[Derp\|it is somehow considered legal in the setting,]] or worse of all, protag-kun is an actual [[Lorgar\|pedo or child molester]] but is somehow considered A-okay because he is now in the body of a [[Shota\|little boy.]] This in itself is already considered atrocious, regardless of how unnecessary it is and that depicting such acts without even the strongest condemnation of it ''in-universe'', should raise the mother of all red flags on what the story is trying to tell us. But the stupid gets worse when certain zealous fans do the mother of all mental gymnastics to [[EPIC FAIL\|defend this shit.]] No bitch, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a ''fucking duck''.
	***Jobless Reincarnation deserves to be called out here. Doesn't matter if it has good animation, okay world building and ~~being praised~~ as the "Father of Modern Isekai". If the whole ethos of the plot is that it is a 'redemption story' like many of its fans like to promote, than it better seriously deal with the MC's blatant history of pedophilia, child grooming, child molestation and the creation of child pornographic material (In his past life at least). Look, you can write stories detailing such serious topics, but it must be handle with as much care as Schindler's List. Jobless Reincarnation however? Nearly every case of the MC attempting to sexually assault a young pre-teen, the show [[Rage\|treats it as a joke with circus music.]] Does the MC becomes repentant, does he gets severely punished, does he suffer any consequences from this? No. He does not. [[RAGE\|In fact, he ends up marrying into a harem of the three girls he fucking groomed from the get go.]] His only 'karma' is that he became impotent, but that in itself is a joke of a punishment, given his predator relationship is orders of magnitude worse ~~than having a limp noodle~~. The show ''tries'' to sympathize with the MC by giving him a 'tragic' backstory (Read: its bullying, fucking tiresome), but having a tragic backstory does not excuse his monstrous behaviour. Jobless Reincarnation is still a power fantasy, the ~~[[Chris-Chan\|~~''WORST'' type of power fantasy]], as it <s>gives</s> rewards a convicted pedophilic piece of shit with a loving middle-upper class family, inside the body of a little boy, filled with little girls of which he can prey on with little to no consequences, whilst becoming powerful and praised as a hero at that. As a 'redemption story' it [[fail]]s to comment on the MC's biggest flaw and worse, treat his actions as a joke and even rewards his ~~action of~~ grooming in the end. At best, it makes the series callous, at worse, ''~~disingenuous~~''. This shit can make or break readers and watchers. You want to watch/read a ''good'' redemption story where the MC actually faces his past crimes and tries to make amends? Read Vinland Saga.		***Jobless Reincarnation deserves to be called out here. Doesn't matter if it has good animation, okay world building and praise as the "Father of Modern Isekai". If the whole ethos of the plot is that it is a 'redemption story' like many of its fans like to promote, than it better seriously deal with the MC's blatant history of pedophilia, child grooming, child molestation and the creation of child pornographic material (in his past life at least). Look, you can write stories detailing such serious topics, but it must be handle with as much care as Schindler's List. Jobless Reincarnation however? Nearly every case of the MC attempting to sexually assault a young pre-teen, the show [[Rage\|treats as a joke with circus music.]] Does the MC becomes repentant, does he gets severely punished, does he suffer any consequences from this? No. He does not. [[RAGE\|In fact, he ends up marrying into a harem of the three girls he fucking groomed from the get go.]] His only 'karma' is that he became impotent, but that itself is a joke of a punishment, given his predator relationship is orders of magnitude worse. The show ''tries'' to sympathize with the MC by giving him a 'tragic' backstory (Read: its bullying, fucking tiresome), but having a tragic backstory does not excuse his monstrous behaviour. Jobless Reincarnation is still a power fantasy, the ''WORST'' type of power fantasy, as it <s>gives</s> rewards a convicted pedophilic piece of shit with a loving middle-upper class family inside the body of a little boy, filled with little girls of which he can prey on with little to no consequences, whilst becoming powerful and praised as a hero at that. As a 'redemption story' it [[fail]]s to comment on the MC's biggest flaw and worse, treat his actions as a joke and even rewards his grooming in the end. At best, it makes the series callous, at worse, ''dishonest''. This shit can make or break readers and watchers. You want to watch/read a ''good'' redemption story where the MC actually faces his past crimes and tries to make amends? Read Vinland Saga.
	* Almost all the protagonists in isekai stories have either a tragic or "NEET" background. ~~Not saying that this is a~~ bad ~~thing,~~ but ~~it is almost as if the authors are trying to push the bill, forcing the reader to go through 1 or 2 chapters of flashbacks~~. This gets worse when they are all generic manga cliches. But some tragic backgrounds are so specific it's ~~almost~~ as if the author ~~self~~ inserted their past there.		* Almost all the protagonists in isekai stories have either a tragic or "NEET" background. Again, not necessarily bad but definitely overused. This gets worse when they are all generic manga cliches. But some tragic backgrounds are so specific it's as if the author inserted their own past there.
	* As if the above wasn't enough, too many isekai MC are [[edgy\|edgelords]]. For most of them, their reason for being edgy is how they were abused, betrayed, NTR'ed or disowned by either the MC's school classmates, other isekai'ed people, or ~~the~~ society as a whole. Some really awful isekai have their MC doing really edgy shit like mass murder, owning/buying slaves, and rape but still be portrayed as morally in the right, like, y'know doing it anyway but at least accepting you've become a monster yourself~~...Not that it's a bad/shameful/necessarily humiliating thing~~.		* As if the above wasn't enough, too many isekai MC are [[edgy\|edgelords]]. For most of them, their reason for being edgy is how they were abused, betrayed, NTR'ed or disowned by either the MC's school classmates, other isekai'ed people, or society as a whole. Some really awful isekai have their MC doing really edgy shit like mass murder, owning/buying slaves, and rape but still be portrayed as morally in the right, like, y'know doing it anyway but at least accepting you've become a monster yourself, which sounds like special pleading.

	===More General Gripes===		===More General Gripes===

104.220.162.108: /* Gripes about the worlds */

2023-06-19T13:19:26Z

Gripes about the worlds

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:19, 19 June 2023
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	* Magic being treated as a "I Win" button. Every single overpowered Isekai protagonists (And friends!) are only overpowered due to the aid of some [[Bullshit\|bullshit]] magic enhancement. Name me <u>'''''ONE'''''</u> Isekai protag who became powerful largely based on his/hers swordskill with no magical bullshit enhancements involved. Now, in a ''good fantasy'' with a ''good'' magical system such as Witch Hat Atelier or Full Metal Alchemist, magic (Or whatever it is called in the setting) has both a set of universal rules that grounds the user from being a one-man army and has its own limitations and issues that prevent it from going all out. For Witch Hat Atelier, magic is ''drawn'' rather than spoken and one must have ''years'' of training to properly draw all the runes and glyphs that will affect the type, power and size of the magic. And even then, the type of spells one can cast is heavily regulated and restricted; creating a self-limitation to avoid another magical world war like before. For Full Metal Alchemist, extremely dangerous alchemy is incredibly risky as under the Laws of Equivalent Exchange, the alchemist in particular must be willing to sacrifice something that is a part of him/herself in the process. Therefore, greatly limiting the overall affects of alchemy unless you are willing to literally give up your humanity in the process. But in shit Isekais (Read: All of them), the MC can just know a very convenient spell he pulled out of his ass and nuke the goddamned place, without any limitation whatsoever. And even with limitations, the protag can just find a loophole and handwave it out of existence, making said limitation [[EPIC FAIL\|''utterly pointless''.]]		* Magic being treated as a "I Win" button. Every single overpowered Isekai protagonists (And friends!) are only overpowered due to the aid of some [[Bullshit\|bullshit]] magic enhancement. Name me <u>'''''ONE'''''</u> Isekai protag who became powerful largely based on his/hers swordskill with no magical bullshit enhancements involved. Now, in a ''good fantasy'' with a ''good'' magical system such as Witch Hat Atelier or Full Metal Alchemist, magic (Or whatever it is called in the setting) has both a set of universal rules that grounds the user from being a one-man army and has its own limitations and issues that prevent it from going all out. For Witch Hat Atelier, magic is ''drawn'' rather than spoken and one must have ''years'' of training to properly draw all the runes and glyphs that will affect the type, power and size of the magic. And even then, the type of spells one can cast is heavily regulated and restricted; creating a self-limitation to avoid another magical world war like before. For Full Metal Alchemist, extremely dangerous alchemy is incredibly risky as under the Laws of Equivalent Exchange, the alchemist in particular must be willing to sacrifice something that is a part of him/herself in the process. Therefore, greatly limiting the overall affects of alchemy unless you are willing to literally give up your humanity in the process. But in shit Isekais (Read: All of them), the MC can just know a very convenient spell he pulled out of his ass and nuke the goddamned place, without any limitation whatsoever. And even with limitations, the protag can just find a loophole and handwave it out of existence, making said limitation [[EPIC FAIL\|''utterly pointless''.]]
	* Since some Isekai protagonists are so powerful, no one in the new world is capable of opposing them; that includes the cliche "great demon king" who had terrorized the world for centuries only to get one-shotted by the MC in one chapter, thus erasing any conflict and tension and making the story even duller. Other type of villains like high-status types (king, nobles) or anyone in the world whom had grudge or a bone to pick with the protagonist may be introduced, but due to how the human civilization of the other world [[Medieval Stasis\|are incapable of advancing their technology]] in most isekai, [[Always Chaotic Evil\|these villains]] are arrogant, ignorant, and often underestimate the MC and their otherworldly knowledge (see the Emperor from GATE). Therefore, they will inevitably get their asses handed to them by the MC and their modern Japanese knowledge + JRPG cheat stats when they tried to sabotage or kill the MC's party and fail again and again. In short, Isekai lacks proper and inspiring villains.		* Since some Isekai protagonists are so powerful, no one in the new world is capable of opposing them; that includes the cliche "great demon king" who had terrorized the world for centuries only to get one-shotted by the MC in one chapter, thus erasing any conflict and tension and making the story even duller. Other type of villains like high-status types (king, nobles) or anyone in the world whom had grudge or a bone to pick with the protagonist may be introduced, but due to how the human civilization of the other world [[Medieval Stasis\|are incapable of advancing their technology]] in most isekai, [[Always Chaotic Evil\|these villains]] are arrogant, ignorant, and often underestimate the MC and their otherworldly knowledge (see the Emperor from GATE). Therefore, they will inevitably get their asses handed to them by the MC and their modern Japanese knowledge + JRPG cheat stats when they tried to sabotage or kill the MC's party and fail again and again. In short, Isekai lacks proper and inspiring villains.
	* Speaking of ~~demon king or demon lord. The~~ main villains of an Isekai are almost usually this and, like the very world they live in, ~~they all~~ look generic as fuck; resembling more of a hot bishie dude with horns than some monstrous abomination ~~like in Dante's Inferno~~. This isn't limited to ''just'' the 'demon lord' however, nearly any monster in an Isekai is also blatantly generic~~. You have your generic~~ D&D dragons, goblins, orcs, trolls, giant spiders, etc. You want them in? Fine, but at least have the ~~creative thought process in giving~~ them an interesting backstory, character design and motivation ~~that does not follow the~~ "RAAAWR! ME TAKE OVER THE WORLD!". If ~~everything, even~~ your ~~antagonists~~ looks like it was copied and pasted from Microsoft Word, then you have created an uninteresting and boring adversary, and nothing is worse in a story than to be ''boring''.		* Speaking of Demon Kings/Lords: the main villains of an Isekai are almost usually this and, like the very world they live in, look generic as fuck, resembling more of a hot bishie dude with horns than some monstrous abomination. This isn't limited to ''just'' the 'demon lord' however; nearly any monster in an Isekai is also blatantly generic-- stock D&D dragons, goblins, orcs, trolls, giant spiders, etc. You want them in? Fine, but at least have the creativity to give them an interesting backstory, character design and motivation beyond "RAAAWR! ME TAKE OVER THE WORLD!". If your antagonist(s) looks like it was copied and pasted from Microsoft Word, then you have created an uninteresting and boring adversary, and nothing is worse in a story than to be ''boring''.
	* Badly-done racism. This one is especially unforgivable considering that racism has been a way of life in Japan for hundreds of years and you'd think they would understand something about it by now. Having drama where the humans hate the elves or the beastfolk is fine. The part that so many series forget is setting up an actual reason that so much bad blood exists, and ~~add~~ exceptions such as sailors and merchants (who are historically the least racist bunch in real and imagined existence) who don't care whom they do business with. They even fail to consider that maybe some of the characters might have different opinions on the other races or ''simply do not care'' when a light elf sees another elf of delicious chocolate variety, because God forbid there be any dimensions to the cast. Of course, setting up the world to be full of people who are spiteful for absolutely no reason means that your main character gets to show off how ''accepting'' and ''benevolent'' he is compared to the backwards fantasy peasants. Which brings us to...		* Badly-done racism. This one is especially unforgivable considering that racism has been a way of life in Japan for hundreds of years and you'd think they would understand something about it by now. Having drama where the humans hate the elves or the beastfolk is fine. The part that so many series forget is setting up an actual reason that so much bad blood exists, and considering exceptions such as sailors and merchants (who are historically the least racist bunch in real and imagined existence) who don't care whom they do business with. They even fail to consider that maybe some of the characters might have different opinions on the other races or ''simply do not care'' when a light elf sees another elf of delicious chocolate variety, because God forbid there be any dimensions to the cast. Of course, setting up the world to be full of people who are spiteful for absolutely no reason means that your main character gets to show off how ''accepting'' and ''benevolent'' he is compared to the backwards fantasy peasants. Which brings us to...

	===Gripes about the protagonists===		===Gripes about the protagonists===

104.220.162.108: /* Gripes about the worlds */

2023-06-19T13:07:50Z

Gripes about the worlds

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:07, 19 June 2023
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	===Gripes about the worlds===		===Gripes about the worlds===
	* While most isekai stories used to be about the protagonist wanting to escape the otherworld to get back to reality, it has become increasingly common for the protagonist to not be able to go back or them not even wanting to go back. As a result, most isekai stories could easily work as regular fantasy stories with few alterations, making the whole isekai aspect pointless.		* While most isekai stories used to be about the protagonist wanting to escape the otherworld to get back to reality, it has become increasingly common for the protagonist to not be able to go back or them not even wanting to go back. As a result, most isekai stories could easily work as regular fantasy stories with few alterations, making the whole isekai aspect pointless.
	* The worlds travelled to are so god damned painfully bland and unoriginal, usually the JRPG version of the [[standard fantasy setting]] at that. Not only is this oversaturated but, coming from ''an ~~oriental~~ nation'', why in all the Yama hells bring your characters into Not Thirteenth Century Catholic Germany all the time? When Westerners do it to (say) Arabian Nights they get called "Orientalists" [[weeaboo\|or worse]]. Suppose we spot each other this on condition we don't make our counterparty DAMN LAME. Seriously, where in the proverbial fuck are our Mesoamerica's, the Middle-Eastern civilizations, the South Asian and Southeast Asian ones? Hell, even in the European setting that every single Isekai is teleported in, it is blatantly cut-and-paste when in reality, Medieval Europe was shockingly diverse in terms of beliefs, culture and architecture. The orthodox buildings of the Byzantines for example, looks completely different from the ~~gothic~~ architecture of Western Europe or the paganistic runes of Northern and Eastern Europe. So even in the very setting it is trying to emulate, Isekais are blander than wall paste.		* The worlds travelled to are so god damned painfully bland and unoriginal, usually the JRPG version of the [[standard fantasy setting]] at that. Not only is this oversaturated but, coming from ''an Asian nation'', why in all the Yama hells bring your characters into Not Thirteenth Century Catholic Germany all the time? When Westerners do it to (say) Arabian Nights they get called "Orientalists" [[weeaboo\|or worse]]. Suppose we spot each other this on condition we don't make our counterparty DAMN LAME. Seriously, where in the proverbial fuck are our Mesoamerica's, the Middle-Eastern civilizations, the South Asian and Southeast Asian ones? Hell, even in the European setting that every single Isekai is teleported in, it is blatantly cut-and-paste when in reality, Medieval Europe was shockingly diverse in terms of beliefs, culture and architecture. The orthodox buildings of the Byzantines for example, looks completely different from the Gothic architecture of Western Europe or the paganistic runes of Northern and Eastern Europe. So even in the very setting it is trying to emulate, Isekais are blander than wall paste.
	**This is most likely because the ''Dragon Quest'' vidya gaems are some of the best-selling media of all time in Japan, so basically every Japanese kid is nostalgic for their fantasy land with slimes and magic swords; but are niche and usually flop everywhere else, so it just comes across as a bunch of bland RPG pastiches ripping each other off.		**This is most likely because the ''Dragon Quest'' vidya gaems are some of the best-selling media of all time in Japan, so basically every Japanese kid is nostalgic for their fantasy land with slimes and magic swords; but are niche and usually flop everywhere else, so it just comes across as a bunch of bland RPG pastiches ripping each other off.
	* And because they're JRPG the isekai will often go so far as to define the world in terms of ''RPG mechanics''. We shit you not. People in isekai worlds speak of levels, classes, and experience as real and tangible things as opposed to the mechanical abstractions fa/tg/uys normally recognize them as. Outside of Isekai stories that actually take place inside of tabletop or videogame RPGs, this is inexcusable. To make matters worse, this has started appearing in [[Goblin Slayer\|fantasy series that aren't isekai]]. Seriously, say what you want about SAO, but at least ''it has the excuse of being inside an actual video game'', so the RPG mechanics makes sense in-universe. But when a 'supposed' fantasy world does it? It automatically breaks several levels of immersion. There is nothing more off-putting than a medieval setting suddenly having a voice announcement out-of-fucking-nowhere to let MC-kun know which class to level up.		* And because they're JRPG the isekai will often go so far as to define the world in terms of ''RPG mechanics''. We shit you not. People in isekai worlds speak of levels, classes, and experience as real and tangible things as opposed to the mechanical abstractions fa/tg/uys normally recognize them as. Outside of Isekai stories that actually take place inside of tabletop or videogame RPGs, this is inexcusable. To make matters worse, this has started appearing in [[Goblin Slayer\|fantasy series that aren't isekai]]. Seriously, say what you want about SAO, but at least ''it has the excuse of being inside an actual video game'', so the RPG mechanics makes sense in-universe. But when a 'supposed' fantasy world does it? It automatically breaks several levels of immersion. There is nothing more off-putting than a medieval setting suddenly having a voice announcement out-of-fucking-nowhere to let MC-kun know which class to level up.

104.220.162.108: /* Reverse Isekai */

2023-06-19T12:49:05Z

Reverse Isekai

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:49, 19 June 2023
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	Occasionally, reverse isekai plots, where supernatural elements from other dimensions have invaded the "real" world, have appeared in /tg/. They mix well with [[Urban Fantasy]] (hell in many cases it basically IS urban fantasy). In [[Masque of the Red Death]], the Red Death's corruption of magic means planar travel only works one way and anything inbound is stuck. [[D20 Modern]]'s default for supernatural entities is that they a dropped onto Earth from another plane, "The Shadow", and can't go home (though their corpses vanish upon death, being "reclaimed" by The Shadow). The [[Adventure Path]] ''Reign of Winter'' has a trip to World War I era Russia where the party fights Mosin-Nagans and machine gun wielding Russian soldiers, tear gas elementals and actual Grigori Rasputin.		Occasionally, reverse isekai plots, where supernatural elements from other dimensions have invaded the "real" world, have appeared in /tg/. They mix well with [[Urban Fantasy]] (hell in many cases it basically IS urban fantasy). In [[Masque of the Red Death]], the Red Death's corruption of magic means planar travel only works one way and anything inbound is stuck. [[D20 Modern]]'s default for supernatural entities is that they a dropped onto Earth from another plane, "The Shadow", and can't go home (though their corpses vanish upon death, being "reclaimed" by The Shadow). The [[Adventure Path]] ''Reign of Winter'' has a trip to World War I era Russia where the party fights Mosin-Nagans and machine gun wielding Russian soldiers, tear gas elementals and actual Grigori Rasputin.

	One odd feature in Japanese Reverse-Isekais is an emphasis on how Japanese food is so much more awesome than whatever bland, flavorless food the peasants of the fantasy world have to eat (to be fair, modern food in general, if made well, would indeed be better than most medieval fare, especially the stuff serfs ate). In fact, there actually is '''more than one''' anime about people from a fantasy world visiting a restaurant in modern Japan, just as an excuse to show off food porn with no real plot. ~~Which in~~ fairness: the modern ~~world wide~~ food distribution networks that can ship sun ripened lemons and meat to any point in the world within 24 hours is likely going to compare ~~favorable~~ to all but the highest fantasy fare. Even so, even the lowliest peasant would put ''some'' effort in using what they had to make food taste good; even if they couldn't afford spices, herbs were still easy enough to get a hold of, and rural cooks knew ~~enough about~~ how to prepare meats to make them taste good~~. Whereas~~ fantasy peasants may as well be eating dry, stringy meat with a side of boiled, unseasoned vegetables and mud for dessert. Apparently the ~~dumb fuck artist didn't~~ do 5 fucking [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_cuisine minutes] of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_stew Internet] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottage research].		One odd feature in Japanese Reverse-Isekais is an emphasis on how Japanese food is so much more awesome than whatever bland, flavorless food the peasants of the fantasy world have to eat (to be fair, modern food in general, if made well, would indeed be better than most medieval fare, especially the stuff serfs ate). In fact, there actually is '''more than one''' anime about people from a fantasy world visiting a restaurant in modern Japan, just as an excuse to show off food porn with no real plot. In fairness, the modern worldwide food distribution networks that can ship sun-ripened lemons and meat to any point in the world within 24 hours is likely going to compare favorably to all but the highest fantasy fare. Even so, even the lowliest peasant would put ''some'' effort in using what they had to make food taste good; even if they couldn't afford many spices, herbs were still easy enough to get a hold of, and rural cooks knew how to prepare meats to make them taste good, whereas fantasy peasants may as well be eating dry, stringy meat with a side of boiled, unseasoned vegetables and mud for dessert. Apparently none of the authors do 5 fucking [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_cuisine minutes] of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_stew Internet] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottage research].

	==Otome Isekai==		==Otome Isekai==

104.220.162.108: /* Slow Life Fantasy */

2023-06-19T12:43:43Z

Slow Life Fantasy

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:43, 19 June 2023
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	==Slow Life Fantasy==		==Slow Life Fantasy==

	This variant is another product of Japan's toxic work culture. The hero may or may not be overpowered, but in this version, the show doesn't even pretend that he or she is supposed to be challenged. Indeed, the hero may outright reject the idea of taking down tyrants, fighting in wars, or even adventuring in general. Instead, they seek an easy and-or simple and fulfilling life as a farmer or shopkeeper. The idea is still Wish Fulfillment, but instead of being the big Hero, it's just to have the happy life that evades so many in the real world, but with a ~~fantastic trimming to it~~(why raise chickens when you can raise [[Final Fantasy \|Chocobos]]?). It's basically Isekai as a Slice-of-Life series, and thus shares almost all the issues of typical Isekai stories (slice of life does cut down on the power-scaling issues), only now there's even less of a plot to deal with.		This variant is another product of Japan's toxic work culture. The hero may or may not be overpowered, but in this version, the show doesn't even pretend that he or she is supposed to be challenged. Indeed, the hero may outright reject the idea of taking down tyrants, fighting in wars, or even adventuring in general. Instead, they seek an easy and-or simple and fulfilling life as a farmer or shopkeeper. The idea is still Wish Fulfillment, but instead of being the big Hero, it's just to have the happy life that evades so many in the real world, but with a fantasy gloss (why raise chickens when you can raise [[Final Fantasy\|Chocobos]]?). It's basically Isekai as a Slice-of-Life series, and thus shares almost all the issues of typical Isekai stories (slice of life does cut down on the power-scaling issues), only now there's even less of a plot to deal with.

	==Reverse Isekai==		==Reverse Isekai==

imported>Administrator: 1 revision imported

2023-06-19T02:16:29Z

1 revision imported

← Older revision	Revision as of 02:16, 19 June 2023
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