Mary Sue - Revision history

Sdhjk: /* The AntiSue and Sympathy Sue */

2025-08-08T07:49:43Z

The AntiSue and Sympathy Sue

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:49, 8 August 2025
Line 62:		Line 62:
	* The perpetrator of the Sue is going for Sympathy. Which, again, is only a change in direction, not in amplitude.		* The perpetrator of the Sue is going for Sympathy. Which, again, is only a change in direction, not in amplitude.

	The "Butt Monkey" case results in an extremely noticeable character archetype that is not usually called a Mary Sue, but is just as annoying: the one guy who is theoretically on the side of the heroes, but is useless, wrong about everything, an asshole, and generally disliked by the rest of the heroes, and who spends all of his or her time complaining or offering obviously stupid ideas. Remember Eric the Cavalier from the 1980s D&D cartoon? How about Nathan Ramsey from Seven Days? The Grand Vizier from War Planets? The magical ragdoll character "One" from the movie "9"? Avoid writing characters like this. Please. It is possible to write incompetent goofballs without making them completely unlikable and no one is that dumb all the time unless they have a legitimate disability, in which case no reasonable person would expect them to take part in the important main mission. The sole exception to this are comedies in which case a total moron should be written to be funny and not as an annoying load that is actively detrimental to the plot. Develop your characters naturally.		The "Butt Monkey" case results in an extremely noticeable character archetype that is not usually called a Mary Sue, but is just as annoying: the one guy who is theoretically on the side of the heroes, but is useless or ''outright detrimental'', wrong about everything, an asshole, and generally disliked by the rest of the heroes, and who spends all of his or her time complaining or offering obviously stupid ideas. Remember Eric the Cavalier from the 1980s D&D cartoon? How about Nathan Ramsey from Seven Days? The Grand Vizier from War Planets? The magical ragdoll character "One" from the movie "9"? Avoid writing characters like this. Please. It is possible to write incompetent goofballs without making them completely unlikable and no one is that dumb all the time unless they have a legitimate disability, in which case no reasonable person would expect them to take part in the important main mission. The sole exception to this are comedies in which case a total moron should be written to be funny and not as an annoying load that is actively detrimental to the plot. Develop your characters naturally.

	===The Comedy Sue===		===The Comedy Sue===

imported>Administrator: 650 revisions imported

2023-06-22T03:11:06Z

650 revisions imported

← Older revision	Revision as of 03:11, 22 June 2023
(No difference)

imported>Administrator: 1 revision imported

2023-06-19T02:40:32Z

1 revision imported

← Older revision	Revision as of 02:40, 19 June 2023
(No difference)

1d4chan>Saarlacfunkel: /* Moral Sue */

2023-05-22T11:46:31Z

Moral Sue

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:46, 22 May 2023
Line 77:		Line 77:

	Another issue comes in the form of political bias. That is to say '''our''' political bias. What if a character is just right? What if we don't necesarily agree with what he or she says, but at least their argument or what they stand for makes sense and sounds actually understandable? This can happen. More often than not, accusations of character being Moral Sues stem from political disagreements online. With that being said, an actual Moral Sue would be presented as always right or standing correct at any given moment, with the added bonus of terrible or unsubtle writing to accompany them. Not only that, but their current situation or happenings within the confines of a story will prove them right at one point or another.		Another issue comes in the form of political bias. That is to say '''our''' political bias. What if a character is just right? What if we don't necesarily agree with what he or she says, but at least their argument or what they stand for makes sense and sounds actually understandable? This can happen. More often than not, accusations of character being Moral Sues stem from political disagreements online. With that being said, an actual Moral Sue would be presented as always right or standing correct at any given moment, with the added bonus of terrible or unsubtle writing to accompany them. Not only that, but their current situation or happenings within the confines of a story will prove them right at one point or another.

			Probably the best way to prove a character is a Moral Sue? If readers/viewers who '''actually agree''' with the position ''still'' find the character intolerable for being too preachy (a situation TV Tropes calls "Don't Shoot The Message").

	===Mary Suetopia===		===Mary Suetopia===

1d4chan>Fikilili: /* A Few Special Cases of Sues */

2023-05-17T14:56:41Z

A Few Special Cases of Sues

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:56, 17 May 2023
Line 72:		Line 72:

	'''''However''''', in order for this to work you need your tongue so far up your cheek it's basically bored out through the other sides, and you actually need ''''' talent. ''''' And the talent part applies even when the character exists solely for joke delivery (and thus requires no characterization beyond a couple of basic traits).		'''''However''''', in order for this to work you need your tongue so far up your cheek it's basically bored out through the other sides, and you actually need ''''' talent. ''''' And the talent part applies even when the character exists solely for joke delivery (and thus requires no characterization beyond a couple of basic traits).

			===Moral Sue===
			Sure, they're not invicible, super-strong, super-fast or have powers beyond reckoning. Neither are they beloved by everyone except the cartoonishly evil villains. But one thing is clear; they are ''constantly'' shown to be right about everything. Or at least put at such a pedestal when it comes to giving out life lessons that it becomes extremely annoying. Moral Sues are [[Skub\|debatably]] a thing. Because of mostly two factors; for one, how does one actually declare a Moral Sue? Sure, a character could be always "presented" as right because of the choice of words or the mise-en-scène while they deliver their little speech, but on the greater scale of the medium they reside in, are they really right about the one thing they preach? Some characters may be entitled or very faithful to their ideology, but how much is it the author doing intellectual masturbation and preaching, and how much is it the character just acting the way they are? Perhaps in a near future, they might actually grow out of that mentality.

			Another issue comes in the form of political bias. That is to say '''our''' political bias. What if a character is just right? What if we don't necesarily agree with what he or she says, but at least their argument or what they stand for makes sense and sounds actually understandable? This can happen. More often than not, accusations of character being Moral Sues stem from political disagreements online. With that being said, an actual Moral Sue would be presented as always right or standing correct at any given moment, with the added bonus of terrible or unsubtle writing to accompany them. Not only that, but their current situation or happenings within the confines of a story will prove them right at one point or another.

	===Mary Suetopia===		===Mary Suetopia===

96.227.121.149 at 07:29, 26 December 2022

2022-12-26T07:29:35Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:29, 26 December 2022
Line 14:		Line 14:
	However, there is a conundrum regarding the definition. If the character is overpowered, idealized and part of an established story (such as some portrayals of Wolverine and Batman), some say that this is not a Mary Sue, as they are a canon character in an original story. For them, the term "Canon Sue" is used. The only difference between a Mary Sue and a Canon Sue (I'd like to take the time to apologize to any real-life people named "Sue" who are reading this) is a Canon Sue is an established character in the story/wish-fulfillment for the creator of the story (NOTE: few people will admit if the fictional character they create is for wish-fulfillment). For the sake of this page, the definition of Mary Sue will also include Canon Sues.		However, there is a conundrum regarding the definition. If the character is overpowered, idealized and part of an established story (such as some portrayals of Wolverine and Batman), some say that this is not a Mary Sue, as they are a canon character in an original story. For them, the term "Canon Sue" is used. The only difference between a Mary Sue and a Canon Sue (I'd like to take the time to apologize to any real-life people named "Sue" who are reading this) is a Canon Sue is an established character in the story/wish-fulfillment for the creator of the story (NOTE: few people will admit if the fictional character they create is for wish-fulfillment). For the sake of this page, the definition of Mary Sue will also include Canon Sues.

	Another problem is when people use the term "Mary Sue" to refer to a "creator's pet"; a character that part of the fanbase dislikes but is adored by the creator of the character and gets treatment such as increasing focus, magnifying the importance of their role, and having the other characters talk about how awesome they are in painful ignorance — or sometimes in spite — of the fans' obvious hatred. This is not a Mary Sue though a character can be both; the two types share common traits and a Creator's Pet is more easily defined. For example; [[Marneus Calgar]] is a creator's pet, while one character who is a Mary Sue ''and'' a creator's pet is Wesley Crusher from Star Trek.		Another problem is when people use the term "Mary Sue" to refer to a "creator's pet"; a character that part of the fanbase dislikes but is adored by the creator of the character and gets treatment such as increasing focus, magnifying the importance of their role, and having the other characters talk about how awesome they are in painful ignorance — or sometimes in spite — of the fans' obvious hatred. This is not a Mary Sue, though a character can be both; the two types share common traits and a Creator's Pet is more easily defined. For example; [[Marneus Calgar]] is a creator's pet, while one character who is a Mary Sue ''and'' a creator's pet is Wesley Crusher from Star Trek.

	One plausible definition is "A Mary Sue is not necessarily the greatest fighter, or the prettiest, or the strangest character. A Mary Sue is often a character whose perception of reality matches with the author's perception of reality.", although that definition runs into problems itself (notably, authors who insert themselves into stories ''as a cameo'' and a minor character falling into the Star Trek Captain Exception below).		One plausible definition is "A Mary Sue is not necessarily the greatest fighter, or the prettiest, or the strangest character. A Mary Sue is often a character whose perception of reality matches with the author's perception of reality.", although that definition runs into problems itself (notably, authors who insert themselves into stories ''as a cameo'' and a minor character falling into the Star Trek Captain Exception below).

96.227.121.149: /* Mary Suetopia */

2022-12-26T07:28:20Z

Mary Suetopia

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:28, 26 December 2022
Line 78:		Line 78:
	# Pure Preaching. Not just religious, but, in the story, any ideology that the author thinks knows The One True Path To (Happiness/Truth/God/Prosperity/etc.). Usually the most Sueish of the lot, since they're often little more than vehicles for an author to ham-fistedly preach their beliefs at you. (For some examples, see [[List of Mary Sues#Mary Suetopia]])		# Pure Preaching. Not just religious, but, in the story, any ideology that the author thinks knows The One True Path To (Happiness/Truth/God/Prosperity/etc.). Usually the most Sueish of the lot, since they're often little more than vehicles for an author to ham-fistedly preach their beliefs at you. (For some examples, see [[List of Mary Sues#Mary Suetopia]])
	# Stories about or involving the Fall of such a civilization (sometimes incidentally; see, for example, many interpretations of [[Superman\|Krypton]], where the only important part about the place is that it blew up after sending one last ship out to Earth), or about the conflict between two civilizations, one of whom is theoretically "better" than the other (e.g., some of the Culture books, or, on the flip side, [[Orks]] vs. just about anybody else). Can be Sueish, but can also avoid it, depending on the focus, nature, and quality of the work.		# Stories about or involving the Fall of such a civilization (sometimes incidentally; see, for example, many interpretations of [[Superman\|Krypton]], where the only important part about the place is that it blew up after sending one last ship out to Earth), or about the conflict between two civilizations, one of whom is theoretically "better" than the other (e.g., some of the Culture books, or, on the flip side, [[Orks]] vs. just about anybody else). Can be Sueish, but can also avoid it, depending on the focus, nature, and quality of the work.
	# Social Satire/Commentary. Here, the point of the work was less on how perfect this civilization is, and more on using it to comment on the culture in which it was written, or the state of the world at the time. Think 1984, Gulliver's Travels, Brave New World, A Clockwork Orange, the original ''Utopia'', and so on. Can be the least Sueish of the three, depending on writing quality.		# Social Satire/Commentary. Here, the point of the work was less on how perfect this civilization is, and more on using it to comment on the culture in which it was written, or the state of the world at the time. Think ''1984'', ''Gulliver's Travels'', ''Brave New World'', ''A Clockwork Orange'', the original ''Utopia'', and so on. Can be the least Sueish of the three, depending on writing quality.

	(As a side note, this version of Suedom is particularly /tg/ relevant; each version of Warhammer alone has vast amounts of the latter two (although admittedly in a usually fairly non-Sueish way), and there are too many cases of the first case in Science Fiction settings.)		(As a side note, this version of Suedom is particularly /tg/ relevant; each version of Warhammer alone has vast amounts of the latter two (although admittedly in a usually fairly non-Sueish way), and there are too many cases of the first case in Science Fiction settings.)

96.227.121.149 at 07:27, 26 December 2022

2022-12-26T07:27:20Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:27, 26 December 2022
Line 30:		Line 30:
	# Certain authors (and any setting with many authors will probably eventually find themselves with at least one of these) want to include Perfect Heroes or Perfect Villains in their settings. The problem with Perfect Heroes is that they tend to be just one or two steps from Mary Suedom, and these authors are usually bad enough writers that the resulting "Hero" goes veering off into Suedom like a plane that loses both wings goes veering off into the ground. (Matt Ward is merely the most /tg/ notable example here; more and worse examples exist, ''trust us''.)		# Certain authors (and any setting with many authors will probably eventually find themselves with at least one of these) want to include Perfect Heroes or Perfect Villains in their settings. The problem with Perfect Heroes is that they tend to be just one or two steps from Mary Suedom, and these authors are usually bad enough writers that the resulting "Hero" goes veering off into Suedom like a plane that loses both wings goes veering off into the ground. (Matt Ward is merely the most /tg/ notable example here; more and worse examples exist, ''trust us''.)
	#* A somewhat common subspecies of 3 is the "[[Waifu]]" Sue author. He wants to create his perfect Waifu, and the result is usually among the Suiest Sues Who Ever Sued. (Husbando-perpetrating female authors exist, as do gay and lesbian authors who do it for the appropriate sex, but Waifuing male authors are the most common subset to get called out, for various subtly obvious reasons.)		#* A somewhat common subspecies of 3 is the "[[Waifu]]" Sue author. He wants to create his perfect Waifu, and the result is usually among the Suiest Sues Who Ever Sued. (Husbando-perpetrating female authors exist, as do gay and lesbian authors who do it for the appropriate sex, but Waifuing male authors are the most common subset to get called out, for various subtly obvious reasons.)
	# When imagining a species or race, some authors lose sight of the concepts of competitive balance and competitive advantage and make one race superior to all the others, forgetting that the rule in good storytelling is [[Sanderson's laws\|that flaws and limitations are more interesting than powers]]. <ref>For example, any given Superman (the character, not the book) story is not that interesting unless you either introduce an equal (or more powerful) and opposite threat (such as General Zod or Darkseid), or lean heavily on either his morality, secret identity, or kryptonite, all of which act as constraints on his power.</ref> The most common race to get this treatment are [[Elf]]s, but [[Chakat\|other examples exist]].		# When imagining a species or race, some authors lose sight of the concepts of competitive balance and competitive advantage and make one race superior to all the others, forgetting that the rule in good storytelling is [[Sanderson's laws\|that flaws and limitations are more interesting than powers]]. <ref>For example, any given Superman (the character, not the book) story is generally not that interesting unless you either introduce an equal (or more powerful) and opposite threat (such as General Zod or Darkseid), or lean heavily on either his morality, secret identity, or kryptonite, all of which act as constraints on his power.</ref> The most common race to get this treatment are [[Elf]]s, but [[Chakat\|other examples exist]].
	#*Humanity gets both ends of this frequently: Depending on the bad writer in question, we can either be [[Humanity Fuck Yeah\|the best thing ever]], or utter shit compared to their perfect Mai Waifu Master Race.		#*Humanity gets both ends of this frequently: Depending on the bad writer in question, we can either be [[Humanity Fuck Yeah\|the best thing ever]], or utter shit compared to their perfect Mai Waifu Master Race.

2A00:79E1:ABC:C03:1993:A428:79D0:EE95 at 20:51, 27 October 2022

2022-10-27T20:51:38Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:51, 27 October 2022
Line 6:		Line 6:
	[[Image:Marysuetest.jpg\|500px\|thumb\|right\|The perfectly sound and entirely reasonable logic of [[Internet Troll\|many well-respected and completely honest critics]].]]		[[Image:Marysuetest.jpg\|500px\|thumb\|right\|The perfectly sound and entirely reasonable logic of [[Internet Troll\|many well-respected and completely honest critics]].]]

	~~Overall, a~~ '''Mary Sue''' is a character that is shamelessly self-inserted, fawned over by the canon characters, poorly developed, without flaws, and/or stupidly overpowered, who the story focuses on at the expense of the actual regular main characters. [[/tg/]] hates [[:Category:Mary Sue\|Mary Sues]].		'''Mary Sue''' is an ancient fandom term for a special breed of terrible, terrible character. The "traditional" definition is a character that is shamelessly self-inserted, fawned over by the canon characters, poorly developed, without flaws, and/or stupidly overpowered, who the story focuses on at the expense of the actual regular main characters. [[/tg/]] hates [[:Category:Mary Sue\|Mary Sues]].

	Unfortunately, after so much [[rage]] and so many [[troll]] threads, /tg/'s definition of Mary Sue has become blurred to the point that any character at all can be (and probably has been) accused of being a Mary Sue on even the flimsiest of pretenses.		Unfortunately, after so much [[rage]] and so many [[troll]] threads, /tg/'s definition (hell, the internet's definition) of Mary Sue has become blurred to the point that any character at all can be (and probably has been) accused of being a Mary Sue on even the flimsiest of pretenses.

	Some accept nothing less than the above description, and will sooner gut you then look twice if you say it's anything else. Others prefer a more generalized definition, which refers to an overly-idealized character who exerts an unjust amount of influence upon their respective setting or story. Others still carry this meaning out to extremes and use the term to describe anyone who isn't a homeless junkie or a brooding sociopath with an alignment of Chaotic Batshit Insane. While another definition put forward by YouTuber Literature Devil in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcXVGIi1m28 this video] is that A Mary Sue is a character for which the laws of the universe bend to justify the actions of the Mary Sue. Especially when the universe bending over backwards leads to contradictions which will rightly piss most people off.		Some accept nothing less than the above description, and will sooner gut you then look twice if you say it's anything else. Others prefer a more generalized definition, which refers to an overly-idealized character who exerts an unjust amount of influence upon their respective setting or story. Others still carry this meaning out to extremes and use the term to describe anyone who isn't a homeless junkie or a brooding sociopath with an alignment of Chaotic Batshit Insane. While another definition put forward by YouTuber Literature Devil in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcXVGIi1m28 this video] is that A Mary Sue is a character for which the laws of the universe bend to justify the actions of the Mary Sue. Especially when the universe bending over backwards leads to contradictions which will rightly piss most people off.
Line 14:		Line 14:
	However, there is a conundrum regarding the definition. If the character is overpowered, idealized and part of an established story (such as some portrayals of Wolverine and Batman), some say that this is not a Mary Sue, as they are a canon character in an original story. For them, the term "Canon Sue" is used. The only difference between a Mary Sue and a Canon Sue (I'd like to take the time to apologize to any real-life people named "Sue" who are reading this) is a Canon Sue is an established character in the story/wish-fulfillment for the creator of the story (NOTE: few people will admit if the fictional character they create is for wish-fulfillment). For the sake of this page, the definition of Mary Sue will also include Canon Sues.		However, there is a conundrum regarding the definition. If the character is overpowered, idealized and part of an established story (such as some portrayals of Wolverine and Batman), some say that this is not a Mary Sue, as they are a canon character in an original story. For them, the term "Canon Sue" is used. The only difference between a Mary Sue and a Canon Sue (I'd like to take the time to apologize to any real-life people named "Sue" who are reading this) is a Canon Sue is an established character in the story/wish-fulfillment for the creator of the story (NOTE: few people will admit if the fictional character they create is for wish-fulfillment). For the sake of this page, the definition of Mary Sue will also include Canon Sues.

	Another problem is when people use the term "Mary Sue" to refer to a "creator's pet"; a character that part of the fanbase dislikes but is adored by the creator of the character and gets treatment such as increasing focus, magnifying the importance of their role, and having the other characters talk about how awesome they are in painful ignorance — or sometimes in spite — of the fans' obvious hatred. This is not a Mary Sue though a character can be both; the two types share common traits and a Creator's Pet is more easily defined. For example; [[Marneus Calgar]] is a creator's pet, while one character who is a Mary ~~Sues~~ and a creator's pet is Wesley Crusher from Star Trek.		Another problem is when people use the term "Mary Sue" to refer to a "creator's pet"; a character that part of the fanbase dislikes but is adored by the creator of the character and gets treatment such as increasing focus, magnifying the importance of their role, and having the other characters talk about how awesome they are in painful ignorance — or sometimes in spite — of the fans' obvious hatred. This is not a Mary Sue though a character can be both; the two types share common traits and a Creator's Pet is more easily defined. For example; [[Marneus Calgar]] is a creator's pet, while one character who is a Mary Sue ''and'' a creator's pet is Wesley Crusher from Star Trek.

	One plausible definition is "A Mary Sue is not necessarily the greatest fighter, or the prettiest, or the strangest character. A Mary Sue is often a character whose perception of reality matches with the author's perception of reality.", although that definition runs into problems itself (notably, authors who insert themselves into stories ''as a cameo'' and a minor character falling into the Star Trek Captain Exception below).		One plausible definition is "A Mary Sue is not necessarily the greatest fighter, or the prettiest, or the strangest character. A Mary Sue is often a character whose perception of reality matches with the author's perception of reality.", although that definition runs into problems itself (notably, authors who insert themselves into stories ''as a cameo'' and a minor character falling into the Star Trek Captain Exception below).

2607:FB90:2D90:5887:59E0:7A37:2AFE:2F1E: /* "I Hate This Competent Character"-Syndrome */

2022-09-24T23:30:17Z

"I Hate This Competent Character"-Syndrome

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:30, 24 September 2022
Line 142:		Line 142:
	It's especially notable in settings where characters are automatically assumed to be competent if they are a main character. Examples like [[Star Wars]], [[Bioware\|Mass Effect]], [[Dungeons and Dragons]] (depending on the whims of the GM), [[Lord of the Rings]] and other magical settings are filled with characters who are just competent by being a hero.		It's especially notable in settings where characters are automatically assumed to be competent if they are a main character. Examples like [[Star Wars]], [[Bioware\|Mass Effect]], [[Dungeons and Dragons]] (depending on the whims of the GM), [[Lord of the Rings]] and other magical settings are filled with characters who are just competent by being a hero.

	Good examples of "I Hate This Competent Character"-syndrome are characters like James Bond, [[A Song of Ice and Fire\|Jon Snow]], [[Eldrad]], [[World of Warcraft\|Thrall]], [[Batman]], and Rick Sanchez; all main-ish characters who are competent and may be dislikable for various different reasons... And if you dislike or even hate some of these characters? ''That's totally fucking fine.'' But make sure to actually use your ding dang words rather than hop on the bandwagon and use a term that doesn't mean what you think it does.		Good examples of "I Hate This Competent Character"-syndrome are characters like James Bond, [[A Song of Ice and Fire\|Jon Snow]], [[Eldrad]], [[World of Warcraft\|Thrall]], [[Batman]] (to varying degrees depending on the comic run and how he's handled), and Rick Sanchez; all main-ish characters who are competent and may be dislikable for various different reasons... And if you dislike or even hate some of these characters? ''That's totally fucking fine.'' But make sure to actually use your ding dang words rather than hop on the bandwagon and use a term that doesn't mean what you think it does.

	We all love and hate different characters, that's called taste. But competence, even relatively unexplained competence, is not a marker that indicates Mary Suedom.		We all love and hate different characters, that's called taste. But competence, even relatively unexplained competence, is not a marker that indicates Mary Suedom.