Medieval Stasis - Revision history

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2025-08-30T14:50:27Z

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67.174.103.120: /* Fantasy authors are bad Medievalists and historians, part 2 */

2023-06-20T05:30:16Z

Fantasy authors are bad Medievalists and historians, part 2

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:30, 20 June 2023
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	=== Fantasy authors are bad Medievalists and historians, part 2 ===		=== Fantasy authors are bad Medievalists and historians, part 2 ===

	The vision of medieval times that exists in fantasy is a gigantic pile of anachronisms, pop-history, and misconceptions. Much of this is due to Fantasy's scope of time being seriously out of whack even without innovations like gunpowder or industrial technology. See, our monkey brains aren't very good at really comprehending spans of time longer than a handful of decades (hence why your childhood and youth memories always appear a lot more recent than they actually are, yes, 1990 really was 30 years ago). So we tend to mash up entire "eras" of history into indistinct blobs in our headspace, even though the entire concept of a historical era is more or less for academic convenience and categorization. Charlemagne~~'s Empire~~ was as far back in the past relative to Joan of Arc as she is to the present day. And technology and culture certainly did not remain static in those intervening seven hundred years. Paris went from a fairly small city of a few tens of thousands to a bustling metropolis of nearly a quarter of a million people, mail or banded armour was largely replaced by solid plated armour, gunpowder was popularised, sugar was introduced to the European diet, the Magyars went from eastern horseback-mounted pagan invaders to a solidly Catholic and Europeanised mainstay of central Europe as the Hungarians, and eastern Europe was Christianised in a rather gory and unpleasant process, to name just a few of the drastic changes over the years. Of course, any Crusader Kings 2 player could tell you how ridiculous the idea of the political map of a faux-medieval realm remaining static for centuries is.		The vision of medieval times that exists in fantasy is a gigantic pile of anachronisms, pop-history, and misconceptions. Much of this is due to Fantasy's scope of time being seriously out of whack even without innovations like gunpowder or industrial technology. See, our monkey brains aren't very good at really comprehending spans of time longer than a handful of decades (hence why your childhood and youth memories always appear a lot more recent than they actually are, yes, 1990 really was 30 years ago). So we tend to mash up entire "eras" of history into indistinct blobs in our headspace, even though the entire concept of a historical era is more or less for academic convenience and categorization. The Carolingian Empire founded by Charlemagne was as far back in the past relative to Joan of Arc as she is to the present day. And technology and culture certainly did not remain static in those intervening seven hundred years. Paris went from a fairly small city of a few tens of thousands to a bustling metropolis of nearly a quarter of a million people, mail or banded armour was largely replaced by solid plated armour, gunpowder was popularised, sugar was introduced to the European diet, the Magyars went from eastern horseback-mounted pagan invaders to a solidly Catholic and Europeanised mainstay of central Europe as the Hungarians, and eastern Europe was Christianised in a rather gory and unpleasant process, to name just a few of the drastic changes over the years. Of course, any Crusader Kings 2 player could tell you how ridiculous the idea of the political map of a faux-medieval realm remaining static for centuries is.

	Let's now take the common complaint among Fantasy authors that guns render castles and knights in shining armour obsolete. Full Plate armour coexisted with man-portable gunpowder weapons throughout literally the entirety of its military service and was phased out because of reasons of cost as armies got bigger, not because it was ineffective against guns. Making a fully articulated suit of plate armour fitted to every soldier is expensive and time consuming, so as armies got more standardized as countries centralized, with equipment being given by the military rather than soldiers being left to figure it out themselves, it was deemed easier to just give people the basics needed to protect their bodies. In that case, ditching the limb armor to reduce costs while keeping the helmet and breastplate like the Swiss Landsknecht and the Spanish Tercio. Hell: in Japan, the increasing prevalence of guns is what made the Samurai go from only partially metallic lamellar armour to full metal plated suits in the first place.		Let's now take the common complaint among Fantasy authors that guns render castles and knights in shining armour obsolete. Full Plate armour coexisted with man-portable gunpowder weapons throughout literally the entirety of its military service and was phased out because of reasons of cost as armies got bigger, not because it was ineffective against guns. Making a fully articulated suit of plate armour fitted to every soldier is expensive and time consuming, so as armies got more standardized as countries centralized, with equipment being given by the military rather than soldiers being left to figure it out themselves, it was deemed easier to just give people the basics needed to protect their bodies. In that case, ditching the limb armor to reduce costs while keeping the helmet and breastplate like the Swiss Landsknecht and the Spanish Tercio. Hell: in Japan, the increasing prevalence of guns is what made the Samurai go from only partially metallic lamellar armour to full metal plated suits in the first place.

115.70.44.117: /* Notable Settings Without Medieval Stasis */

2023-06-19T23:38:52Z

Notable Settings Without Medieval Stasis

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:38, 19 June 2023
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	'''[[Pathfinder]]:''' [[Golarion]] features relatively advanced technologies such as flintlock and matchlock firearms, the printing press, galleons (crewed by pirates reminiscent of the Golden Age of piracy in the Caribbean), and, in certain sourcebooks, [[Spelljammer\|steampunk/magi-tech spaceships]]. Not to mention the number of people whose clothes and equipment are explicitly based on 18th-century fashions (see, among others, Andoran, Taldor, and Alkenstar). At least one source (''05-13: Hellknight's Feast'') says high class dwellings have actual porcelain toilets. Also, there's that one random corner of the world where aliens are trying to peacefully settle and/or invade, only to realize they picked the one* corner of the world where pleas of "We come in peace!" are met with [[Barbarian\|warcries and the judicious application of battleaxes to various vital areas]]. One sourcebook (''Technology Guide'') includes lots of super-high-tech stuff and different class archetypes that make use of it. On the socio-political front, the Chelaxian breakaways Andoran and Galt have started to push for a less aristocratic government. Come second edition, cannons have become widespread on naval vessels.		'''[[Pathfinder]]:''' [[Golarion]] features relatively advanced technologies such as flintlock and matchlock firearms, the printing press, galleons (crewed by pirates reminiscent of the Golden Age of piracy in the Caribbean), and, in certain sourcebooks, [[Spelljammer\|steampunk/magi-tech spaceships]]. Not to mention the number of people whose clothes and equipment are explicitly based on 18th-century fashions (see, among others, Andoran, Taldor, and Alkenstar). At least one source (''05-13: Hellknight's Feast'') says high class dwellings have actual porcelain toilets. Also, there's that one random corner of the world where aliens are trying to peacefully settle and/or invade, only to realize they picked the one* corner of the world where pleas of "We come in peace!" are met with [[Barbarian\|warcries and the judicious application of battleaxes to various vital areas]]. One sourcebook (''Technology Guide'') includes lots of super-high-tech stuff and different class archetypes that make use of it. On the socio-political front, the Chelaxian breakaways Andoran and Galt have started to push for a less aristocratic government. Come second edition, cannons have become widespread on naval vessels.
	**And '''[[Starfinder]]''' reveals that at least at some point various sci-fi technologies will be developed.		**And '''[[Starfinder]]''' reveals that at least at some point various sci-fi technologies will be developed.
	*'''[[Avatar: The Last Airbender]]''': It was true in the past, but by the time of the original series the Fire Nation has become an industrial power, complete with colonial ambitions towards the rest of the world. In fact, the main character's previous incarnation as Avatar Roku actually ''stopped'' the Fire Nation from breaking medieval stasis ''because'' ~~he foresaw~~ that ~~doing so~~ would ~~mean allowing them~~ to subjugate all ~~the~~ other peoples. ~~In fact~~ Sozin, the Fire Lord during this industrial age and Roku's former friend, outright stated that's exactly what he ~~planned to~~ do, and hoped Roku would join him. ~~And after~~ Sozin got rid of Roku, the Fire Nation immediately went all Imperial Japan on the world, even inflicting genocide on the Air Nomads to stop the next Avatar, Aang, which ~~forced Aang to flee. Which is perfectly sensible~~ because even if they weren't the designated pacifist culture, Aang was literally 12 and had no way of meaningfully stopping them (''yet''). Even the Earth Kingdom and Water Tribes have a few tinkerers and inventors, and during the time of Avatar Aang, the first airships and submarines are invented, albeit the magitek varieties. At the end of the show, the protagonist Avatar Aang makes peace between all three surviving factions and begins the reestablishment of the aforementioned genocided faction, and the sequel reveals that doing so helped the world advance to a roughly 20s/30s era of technology, complete with automobiles, moving pictures, the printing press, political propaganda videos, and croneyist democracy.		*'''[[Avatar: The Last Airbender]]''': It was true in the past, but by the time of the original series the Fire Nation has become an industrial power, complete with colonial ambitions towards the rest of the world. In fact, the main character's previous incarnation as Avatar Roku actually ''stopped'' the Fire Nation from breaking medieval stasis ''because'' that would allow the Fire Nation to subjugate all other peoples. This wasn't mere theory as Sozin, the Fire Lord during this industrial age and Roku's former friend, outright stated that's exactly what he would do and hoped Roku would join him. After Sozin got rid of Roku, the Fire Nation immediately went all Imperial Japan on the world, even inflicting genocide on the Air Nomads to stop the next Avatar, Aang (though he'd fled beforehand which worked out because even if they weren't the designated pacifist culture and he'd stayed, Aang was literally an untrained child and had no way of meaningfully stopping them... ''yet''). Even the Earth Kingdom and Water Tribes have a few tinkerers and inventors, and during the time of Avatar Aang, the first airships and submarines are invented, albeit the magitek varieties. At the end of the show, the protagonist Avatar Aang makes peace between all three surviving factions and begins the reestablishment of the aforementioned genocided faction, and the sequel reveals that doing so helped the world advance to a roughly 20s/30s era of technology, complete with automobiles, moving pictures, the printing press, political propaganda videos, and croneyist democracy.
	*'''[[Dragonmech]]''': Dragonmech's setting used to be in Medieval Stasis, then chunks of the moon started to rain down on them along with Alien Moon Dragons riding the rocks down for a full-on invasion, people first hide underground but then a dwarf kickstarts the creation of Pacific Rim sized steampunk robots to fight the Dragons and the whole world is now in a full-on steam-powered Industrial Revolution without the gunpowder.		*'''[[Dragonmech]]''': Dragonmech's setting used to be in Medieval Stasis, then chunks of the moon started to rain down on them along with Alien Moon Dragons riding the rocks down for a full-on invasion, people first hide underground but then a dwarf kickstarts the creation of Pacific Rim sized steampunk robots to fight the Dragons and the whole world is now in a full-on steam-powered Industrial Revolution without the gunpowder.
	*'''[[Star Wars]]:''' After the Celestials fell, the Rakata developed significantly and only failed as they lost their connection to the force. After the Rakata collapse, technology advances with some anachronisms due to FTL travel being discovered early on through Rakatan and other ruins and slave revolts against the Rakata. This continues until the period between the start of the New Sith Wars (2000 BBBY) to the Ruusan Reformation (1000 BBY) (where everyone was too busy killing each other, even more so than usual), and after that technology actually ''does'' advance noticeably throughout Post-Reformation Old Republic and especially the prequels (32 BBY onward) all the way to the era of the Legacy comics (138 ABY). Hyperdrives improve (in speed, how small a craft they can fit in and how big a craft they can propel) at a much faster rate than they did in the 1000 years since the end of the dark age. It's not just direct improvements either, with new technologies like [[Android]]s, relatively cheap cloaking devices that don't require unobtainum, silent and invisible blasters, biological technology merged with mechanical tech, and more. Even military strategy changes significantly between back and forth transitions between symmetrical and asymmetrical warfare. Amazingly all this occurs organically as new technology is introduced to allow a plot and gets improved upon in future installments.		*'''[[Star Wars]]:''' After the Celestials fell, the Rakata developed significantly and only failed as they lost their connection to the force. After the Rakata collapse, technology advances with some anachronisms due to FTL travel being discovered early on through Rakatan and other ruins and slave revolts against the Rakata. This continues until the period between the start of the New Sith Wars (2000 BBBY) to the Ruusan Reformation (1000 BBY) (where everyone was too busy killing each other, even more so than usual), and after that technology actually ''does'' advance noticeably throughout Post-Reformation Old Republic and especially the prequels (32 BBY onward) all the way to the era of the Legacy comics (138 ABY). Hyperdrives improve (in speed, how small a craft they can fit in and how big a craft they can propel) at a much faster rate than they did in the 1000 years since the end of the dark age. It's not just direct improvements either, with new technologies like [[Android]]s, relatively cheap cloaking devices that don't require unobtainum, silent and invisible blasters, biological technology merged with mechanical tech, and more. Even military strategy changes significantly between back and forth transitions between symmetrical and asymmetrical warfare. Amazingly all this occurs organically as new technology is introduced to allow a plot and gets improved upon in future installments.

2A02:8070:8E81:DD40:0:0:0:B414: /* Why the Medieval Stasis of the Post-Roman Middle Ages Ended */

2023-06-19T15:53:18Z

Why the Medieval Stasis of the Post-Roman Middle Ages Ended

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:53, 19 June 2023
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	* '''Craft Guilds (the Emergence of a Middle Class):''' The increasing complexity of creating of arms and desired goods drove the formation of labor organizations specifically focused on production; all kinds of production from guns to fabrics to ships and everything else. As these organizations gained wealth, they gained power and with it an awareness of their importance relative to the importance of their supposed betters; this awareness found its outlet in the growing public forum fueled by printing.		* '''Craft Guilds (the Emergence of a Middle Class):''' The increasing complexity of creating of arms and desired goods drove the formation of labor organizations specifically focused on production; all kinds of production from guns to fabrics to ships and everything else. As these organizations gained wealth, they gained power and with it an awareness of their importance relative to the importance of their supposed betters; this awareness found its outlet in the growing public forum fueled by printing.
	* '''Fractional Investment:''' With craft guilds and casting, economies were primed to begin growing rapidly, beyond the ability of the nobility to retain control or even complete awareness of what was going on. Into this the growing artisan classes (particularly in the Netherlands) threw in the concept of modern investment, allowing individuals of lower means to participate in larger endeavors at reasonable risk. Whether it was building polders or sending ships on trading missions or establishing businesses, this lit a fuse for explosive economic growth which ultimately made feudalism (and its tendency to maintain the status quo) economically obsolete.		* '''Fractional Investment:''' With craft guilds and casting, economies were primed to begin growing rapidly, beyond the ability of the nobility to retain control or even complete awareness of what was going on. Into this the growing artisan classes (particularly in the Netherlands) threw in the concept of modern investment, allowing individuals of lower means to participate in larger endeavors at reasonable risk. Whether it was building polders or sending ships on trading missions or establishing businesses, this lit a fuse for explosive economic growth which ultimately made feudalism (and its tendency to maintain the status quo) economically obsolete.
	* '''Colonialism:''' This also goes hand in hand with the emergence of the Middle Class. The discovery of the Americas single-handedly fixed the decades long economic recession Europe experienced by opening up the vast deposits of precious metals (so vast in fact, that some of the mines established by the Spanish in the 1500s are operating to this very day) sitting there to the European powers (mostly Spain). Expansionism and wars between ''Nations'' as opposed to ''Kings'' over economical and strategic dominance (instead of dynastic struggles over thrones and titles) that seem more familiar to us became the norm as a result, as nations started to argue over their slice of the cake instead of the cake as a whole. Colonialism changed the face of the world in ways that would take up too much space to even broadly lay down on this page, so we'll just leave it at that.		* '''Colonialism:''' This also goes hand in hand with the emergence of the Middle Class. The discovery of the Americas single-handedly fixed the decades long economic recession Europe experienced by opening up the vast deposits of precious metals (so vast in fact, that some of the mines established by the Spanish in the 1500s are operating to this very day) sitting there to the European powers (mostly Spain). Expansionism and wars between ''Nations'' as opposed to ''Kings'' over economical and strategic dominance (instead of dynastic struggles over thrones and titles) that seem more familiar to us became the norm as a result, as nations started to argue over their slice of the cake instead of the cake as a whole. Additionally, the founding of the colonies in the Americas and trade stations in Asia and Africa gave birth to the first vestiges of a globalized economy, where nations across the world directly started to interact with each other, with the sideeffect of adverse events directly impacting everyone involed. Colonialism changed the face of the world in ways that would take up too much space to even broadly lay down on this page, so we'll just leave it at that.

	While there were innumerable other factors, these were major destabilizing elements that individually might have been coped with, but in concert made change inevitable. In designing a medieval setting, care must be given to the degree of technology that is introduced. As a general rule anything which cannot be created by the labor of a single person (excluding buildings, anyway), is liable to begin a chain reaction of economic activity which transfers wealth (and thus, power) away from a landholding nobility to a middle, merchant class.		While there were innumerable other factors, these were major destabilizing elements that individually might have been coped with, but in concert made change inevitable. In designing a medieval setting, care must be given to the degree of technology that is introduced. As a general rule anything which cannot be created by the labor of a single person (excluding buildings, anyway), is liable to begin a chain reaction of economic activity which transfers wealth (and thus, power) away from a landholding nobility to a middle, merchant class.

2A02:8070:8E81:DD40:0:0:0:B414: /* Why the Medieval Stasis of the Post-Roman Middle Ages Ended */

2023-06-19T15:49:56Z

Why the Medieval Stasis of the Post-Roman Middle Ages Ended

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:49, 19 June 2023
Line 54:		Line 54:
	* '''Craft Guilds (the Emergence of a Middle Class):''' The increasing complexity of creating of arms and desired goods drove the formation of labor organizations specifically focused on production; all kinds of production from guns to fabrics to ships and everything else. As these organizations gained wealth, they gained power and with it an awareness of their importance relative to the importance of their supposed betters; this awareness found its outlet in the growing public forum fueled by printing.		* '''Craft Guilds (the Emergence of a Middle Class):''' The increasing complexity of creating of arms and desired goods drove the formation of labor organizations specifically focused on production; all kinds of production from guns to fabrics to ships and everything else. As these organizations gained wealth, they gained power and with it an awareness of their importance relative to the importance of their supposed betters; this awareness found its outlet in the growing public forum fueled by printing.
	* '''Fractional Investment:''' With craft guilds and casting, economies were primed to begin growing rapidly, beyond the ability of the nobility to retain control or even complete awareness of what was going on. Into this the growing artisan classes (particularly in the Netherlands) threw in the concept of modern investment, allowing individuals of lower means to participate in larger endeavors at reasonable risk. Whether it was building polders or sending ships on trading missions or establishing businesses, this lit a fuse for explosive economic growth which ultimately made feudalism (and its tendency to maintain the status quo) economically obsolete.		* '''Fractional Investment:''' With craft guilds and casting, economies were primed to begin growing rapidly, beyond the ability of the nobility to retain control or even complete awareness of what was going on. Into this the growing artisan classes (particularly in the Netherlands) threw in the concept of modern investment, allowing individuals of lower means to participate in larger endeavors at reasonable risk. Whether it was building polders or sending ships on trading missions or establishing businesses, this lit a fuse for explosive economic growth which ultimately made feudalism (and its tendency to maintain the status quo) economically obsolete.
	* '''Colonialism:''' This also goes hand in hand with the emergence of the Middle Class. The discovery of the Americas single-handedly fixed the decades long economic recession Europe experienced by opening up the vast deposits of precious metals (so vast in fact, that some of the mines established by the Spanish in the 1500s are operating to this very day) sitting there to the European powers (mostly Spain). Expansionism and wars between ''Nations'' as opposed to ''Kings'' over economical and strategic dominance (instead of dynastic struggles over thrones and titles) that seem more familiar to us ~~also~~ became the norm. Colonialism changed the face of the world in ways that would take up too much space to even broadly lay down on this page, so we'll just leave it at that.		* '''Colonialism:''' This also goes hand in hand with the emergence of the Middle Class. The discovery of the Americas single-handedly fixed the decades long economic recession Europe experienced by opening up the vast deposits of precious metals (so vast in fact, that some of the mines established by the Spanish in the 1500s are operating to this very day) sitting there to the European powers (mostly Spain). Expansionism and wars between ''Nations'' as opposed to ''Kings'' over economical and strategic dominance (instead of dynastic struggles over thrones and titles) that seem more familiar to us became the norm as a result, as nations started to argue over their slice of the cake instead of the cake as a whole. Colonialism changed the face of the world in ways that would take up too much space to even broadly lay down on this page, so we'll just leave it at that.

	While there were innumerable other factors, these were major destabilizing elements that individually might have been coped with, but in concert made change inevitable. In designing a medieval setting, care must be given to the degree of technology that is introduced. As a general rule anything which cannot be created by the labor of a single person (excluding buildings, anyway), is liable to begin a chain reaction of economic activity which transfers wealth (and thus, power) away from a landholding nobility to a middle, merchant class.		While there were innumerable other factors, these were major destabilizing elements that individually might have been coped with, but in concert made change inevitable. In designing a medieval setting, care must be given to the degree of technology that is introduced. As a general rule anything which cannot be created by the labor of a single person (excluding buildings, anyway), is liable to begin a chain reaction of economic activity which transfers wealth (and thus, power) away from a landholding nobility to a middle, merchant class.

2A02:8070:8E81:DD40:0:0:0:B414: /* Why the Medieval Stasis of the Post-Roman Middle Ages Ended */

2023-06-19T15:48:25Z

Why the Medieval Stasis of the Post-Roman Middle Ages Ended

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:48, 19 June 2023
Line 54:		Line 54:
	* '''Craft Guilds (the Emergence of a Middle Class):''' The increasing complexity of creating of arms and desired goods drove the formation of labor organizations specifically focused on production; all kinds of production from guns to fabrics to ships and everything else. As these organizations gained wealth, they gained power and with it an awareness of their importance relative to the importance of their supposed betters; this awareness found its outlet in the growing public forum fueled by printing.		* '''Craft Guilds (the Emergence of a Middle Class):''' The increasing complexity of creating of arms and desired goods drove the formation of labor organizations specifically focused on production; all kinds of production from guns to fabrics to ships and everything else. As these organizations gained wealth, they gained power and with it an awareness of their importance relative to the importance of their supposed betters; this awareness found its outlet in the growing public forum fueled by printing.
	* '''Fractional Investment:''' With craft guilds and casting, economies were primed to begin growing rapidly, beyond the ability of the nobility to retain control or even complete awareness of what was going on. Into this the growing artisan classes (particularly in the Netherlands) threw in the concept of modern investment, allowing individuals of lower means to participate in larger endeavors at reasonable risk. Whether it was building polders or sending ships on trading missions or establishing businesses, this lit a fuse for explosive economic growth which ultimately made feudalism (and its tendency to maintain the status quo) economically obsolete.		* '''Fractional Investment:''' With craft guilds and casting, economies were primed to begin growing rapidly, beyond the ability of the nobility to retain control or even complete awareness of what was going on. Into this the growing artisan classes (particularly in the Netherlands) threw in the concept of modern investment, allowing individuals of lower means to participate in larger endeavors at reasonable risk. Whether it was building polders or sending ships on trading missions or establishing businesses, this lit a fuse for explosive economic growth which ultimately made feudalism (and its tendency to maintain the status quo) economically obsolete.
	* '''Colonialism:''' This also goes hand in hand with the emergence of the Middle Class. The discovery of the Americas single-handedly fixed the decades long economic recession Europe experienced by opening up the vast deposits of precious metals (so vast in fact, that some of the mines established by the Spanish in the 1500s are operating to this very day) sitting there to the European powers (mostly Spain). Expansionism and wars between ''Nations'' as opposed to ''Kings'' over economical and strategic dominance that seem more familiar to us also became the norm. Colonialism changed the face of the world in ways that would take up too much space to even broadly lay down on this page, so we'll just leave it at that.		* '''Colonialism:''' This also goes hand in hand with the emergence of the Middle Class. The discovery of the Americas single-handedly fixed the decades long economic recession Europe experienced by opening up the vast deposits of precious metals (so vast in fact, that some of the mines established by the Spanish in the 1500s are operating to this very day) sitting there to the European powers (mostly Spain). Expansionism and wars between ''Nations'' as opposed to ''Kings'' over economical and strategic dominance (instead of dynastic struggles over thrones and titles) that seem more familiar to us also became the norm. Colonialism changed the face of the world in ways that would take up too much space to even broadly lay down on this page, so we'll just leave it at that.

	While there were innumerable other factors, these were major destabilizing elements that individually might have been coped with, but in concert made change inevitable. In designing a medieval setting, care must be given to the degree of technology that is introduced. As a general rule anything which cannot be created by the labor of a single person (excluding buildings, anyway), is liable to begin a chain reaction of economic activity which transfers wealth (and thus, power) away from a landholding nobility to a middle, merchant class.		While there were innumerable other factors, these were major destabilizing elements that individually might have been coped with, but in concert made change inevitable. In designing a medieval setting, care must be given to the degree of technology that is introduced. As a general rule anything which cannot be created by the labor of a single person (excluding buildings, anyway), is liable to begin a chain reaction of economic activity which transfers wealth (and thus, power) away from a landholding nobility to a middle, merchant class.

2A02:8070:8E81:DD40:0:0:0:B414: /* Notable Examples of Medieval Stasis */

2023-06-19T15:46:29Z

Notable Examples of Medieval Stasis

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:46, 19 June 2023
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	<!-- This isn't TV Tropes fuckheads, keep examples as short and sweet as you can manage -->		<!-- This isn't TV Tropes fuckheads, keep examples as short and sweet as you can manage -->
	*'''[[Lord of the Rings]]:''' Tolkien wasn't too fond of industrialization, having seen the First World War's highly industrialized warfare and the pollution-spewing effects of the Industrial and Transportation Revolutions on his native countryside up close and personal, so the heroes of his stories preferred Medieval Stasis as well, barring a few anachronisms like clocks and matches. Unlike most of the writers that he inspired, Tolkien had [[Fluff\|five hundred pages of background]] explaining why, namely because Middle-earth was in a state of decline due to the ravages of Morgoth and Sauron, the gradual decline of the elves and the Dunedain after the downfall of Numenor, and much of their technology was given to them by the Valar rather than inventing it themselves, and is intended as a mythological history of the world that ultimately explains why humans are on top and everyone else is gone. The funny thing is, based on supplementary books and scrapped stories, Numenor came quite close to being a Steampunk world power, equipped with steamships and even rockets, which, in their decadent colonialist period, they promptly used to imperialize the shit out of much of the world in a manner that led to their ultimate downfall. Indeed, that's why Harad, Rhun, Khand and other humans hate Gondor so much. The Numenorian ancestors of Gondor's people were taking them for [[Chaos Dwarfs\|industrial-level human sacrifices]] and doing other atrocities to them, so the descendants of their victims still hold genocidal hatred (abetted by Sauron playing all sides against each other). Also, it's worth mentioning that Tolkien designed his setting as a literal Earth backstory myth, so technically the age of industrialization and modernisation will start in Middle-Earth anyway.		*'''[[Lord of the Rings]]:''' Tolkien wasn't too fond of industrialization, having seen the First World War's highly industrialized warfare and the pollution-spewing effects of the Industrial and Transportation Revolutions on his native countryside up close and personal, so the heroes of his stories preferred Medieval Stasis as well, barring a few anachronisms like clocks and matches. Unlike most of the writers that he inspired, Tolkien had [[Fluff\|five hundred pages of background]] explaining why, namely because Middle-earth was in a state of decline due to the ravages of Morgoth and Sauron, the gradual decline of the elves and the Dunedain after the downfall of Numenor, and much of their technology was given to them by the Valar rather than inventing it themselves, and is intended as a mythological history of the world that ultimately explains why humans are on top and everyone else is gone. The funny thing is, based on supplementary books and scrapped stories, Numenor came quite close to being a Steampunk world power, equipped with steamships and even rockets, which, in their decadent colonialist period, they promptly used to imperialize the shit out of much of the world in a manner that led to their ultimate downfall. Indeed, that's why Harad, Rhun, Khand and other humans hate Gondor so much. The Numenorian ancestors of Gondor's people were taking them for [[Chaos Dwarfs\|industrial-level human sacrifices]] and doing other atrocities to them, so the descendants of their victims still hold genocidal hatred (abetted by Sauron playing all sides against each other). Also, it's worth mentioning that Tolkien designed his setting as a literal Earth backstory myth, so technically the age of industrialization and modernisation will start in Middle-Earth anyway.
	* '''[[A Song of Ice and Fire]]:''' Westeros is ''extra'' static, because not only has everything been fairly stable for thousands of years until the Great Fuckening of the current time frame, some ''individual families'' have had unbroken rule over their lands for a hundred odd generations (The Starks being the prime example, as they have ruled in Winterfell for over ''eight thousand years'') which is something patently absurd when you consider how much real life royal, imperial, and noble families have had to struggle to avoid patrilineal extinction in just a few centuries, with the oldest still extant aristocratic house being the Japanese house of Yamato and even then it's likely that they bent the rules of succession at least once in their 2500 year history. That said, it should be noted that part of the backstory involves the Bronze Age First Men defeating the Stone Age Children of the Forest, who were themselves conquered by the Iron Age Andal invaders everywhere but in the Iron Islands and the North (who adapted and adopted the technology of their would-be conquerors), and the records of the ancient days are spotty at best, full of mythical accounts and many of the Maesters believe that said events happened over a shorter timeframe. Granted, the whole "millenia old houses" might be something that tended to happen with noble houses IRL claming to be much older than they actually were and could not being contradicted in the absence of reliable records, all the way to the Ethiopian "Solomonids" that still exist to this day, and the aforementioned Yamato being helped by the fact that Japan did not have reliable calendars until the late 19th century, so there's that. While the exact timespan between the Andal invasion and the current events isn't exactly established, the stasis is still quite bad especially when you consider how dragons (essentially domesticated flying animals) are present yet people are none wiser on things such as flight or the use of heat and steam in proto-industrial activities.		* '''[[A Song of Ice and Fire]]:''' Westeros is ''extra'' static, because not only has everything been fairly stable for thousands of years until the Great Fuckening of the current time frame, some ''individual families'' have had unbroken rule over their lands for a hundred odd generations (The Starks being the prime example, as they have ruled in Winterfell for over ''eight thousand years'') which is something patently absurd when you consider how much real life royal, imperial, and noble families have had to struggle to avoid patrilineal extinction in just a few centuries, decades even in some cases, with the oldest still extant aristocratic house being the Japanese house of Yamato and even then it's likely that they bent the rules of succession at least once in their 2500 year history. That said, it should be noted that part of the backstory involves the Bronze Age First Men defeating the Stone Age Children of the Forest, who were themselves conquered by the Iron Age Andal invaders everywhere but in the Iron Islands and the North (who adapted and adopted the technology of their would-be conquerors), and the records of the ancient days are spotty at best, full of mythical accounts and many of the Maesters believe that said events happened over a shorter timeframe. Granted, the whole "millenia old houses" might be something that tended to happen with noble houses IRL claming to be much older than they actually were and could not being contradicted in the absence of reliable records, all the way to the Ethiopian "Solomonids" that still exist to this day, and the aforementioned Yamato being helped by the fact that Japan did not have reliable calendars until the late 19th century, so there's that. While the exact timespan between the Andal invasion and the current events isn't exactly established, the stasis is still quite bad especially when you consider how dragons (essentially domesticated flying animals) are present yet people are none wiser on things such as flight or the use of heat and steam in proto-industrial activities.
	* '''[[Forgotten Realms]]:''' Not only have things been more-or-less exactly the same for all of recorded history, there is a powerful, international, theoretically-good-or-at-least-neutral organization actively devoted to making sure that ''no progress of any kind is ever made'': the [[Harpers]]. Whenever anyone invents something useful (guns, locomotion, steel plows, etc.) and tries to market it, the Harpers confiscate it and make it clear they'll kill the creator and their whole family if they don't go back to being a happy little peasant. Whenever a good-aligned king tries to unite and stabilize the warring states, the Harpers murder his ass (makes one wonder if the Harpers aren't part of the problem). Faerun hasn't budged an inch since Ao glued it together. And even [[Al-Qadim]], located on a southern continent beyond their reach, is a somewhat-hidebound and conservative society where progress is uncommon. The only exception to this was the island nation of [[Lantan]]. The island was a theocratic state in service to Gond Wonderbringer, a deity whose portfolio included innovation and technology, who gifted his followers with knowledge of smokepowder which lead to functional in-setting [[firearm\|firearms]]. At least until 4th edition blew it up along with everything else fun or interesting in the Forgotten Realms. As of 5th edition, the current (albeit scattered and/or vague) lore seems to imply that Lantan's destruction has been retconned like the rest of the Spellplague.		* '''[[Forgotten Realms]]:''' Not only have things been more-or-less exactly the same for all of recorded history, there is a powerful, international, theoretically-good-or-at-least-neutral organization actively devoted to making sure that ''no progress of any kind is ever made'': the [[Harpers]]. Whenever anyone invents something useful (guns, locomotion, steel plows, etc.) and tries to market it, the Harpers confiscate it and make it clear they'll kill the creator and their whole family if they don't go back to being a happy little peasant. Whenever a good-aligned king tries to unite and stabilize the warring states, the Harpers murder his ass (makes one wonder if the Harpers aren't part of the problem). Faerun hasn't budged an inch since Ao glued it together. And even [[Al-Qadim]], located on a southern continent beyond their reach, is a somewhat-hidebound and conservative society where progress is uncommon. The only exception to this was the island nation of [[Lantan]]. The island was a theocratic state in service to Gond Wonderbringer, a deity whose portfolio included innovation and technology, who gifted his followers with knowledge of smokepowder which lead to functional in-setting [[firearm\|firearms]]. At least until 4th edition blew it up along with everything else fun or interesting in the Forgotten Realms. As of 5th edition, the current (albeit scattered and/or vague) lore seems to imply that Lantan's destruction has been retconned like the rest of the Spellplague.
	* '''[[Greyhawk]]:''' Despite the impotent bitching on the page for this [[Old School Roleplaying\|oldest-of-the-old school]] settings, it also has a society where nothing much ever has happened or will happen to bring about changes in the lifestyles of its inhabitants. And ''this'' is the setting with [[Murlynd\| a literal god of Old West gunfighting]] and an army of [[firearm]]-toting [[gunslinger\|paladins analogous to sheriffs]].		* '''[[Greyhawk]]:''' Despite the impotent bitching on the page for this [[Old School Roleplaying\|oldest-of-the-old school]] settings, it also has a society where nothing much ever has happened or will happen to bring about changes in the lifestyles of its inhabitants. And ''this'' is the setting with [[Murlynd\| a literal god of Old West gunfighting]] and an army of [[firearm]]-toting [[gunslinger\|paladins analogous to sheriffs]].

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Notable Examples of Medieval Stasis

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	*'''[[Star Wars]]:''' Not medieval, but absolutely in technological stasis in the Old Republic. In the 4000 years before the Battle of Yavin (the situation before and after this 4000 year period is discussed below) technological , the only thing that has noticeably improved is hyperdrives which have become faster and smaller. This would eventually be justified by a devastating war ~1100 years before the original film bringing about a dark age that killed several major technology companies and destroyed any FTL communication (sans courier) past the core worlds. This does ''not'' however apply to the period of 36 years covered by the films and the decades after it covered by the Expanded Universe (see below). There are some in-universe technological achievements that supposedly result in better results (the kolto made by an isolationist monopoly being replaced by the superior bacta made by multiple rival cartels, for instance, as the flesh-healing miracle drug), but none of them are really noticeable through the window the audience sees.		*'''[[Star Wars]]:''' Not medieval, but absolutely in technological stasis in the Old Republic. In the 4000 years before the Battle of Yavin (the situation before and after this 4000 year period is discussed below) technological , the only thing that has noticeably improved is hyperdrives which have become faster and smaller. This would eventually be justified by a devastating war ~1100 years before the original film bringing about a dark age that killed several major technology companies and destroyed any FTL communication (sans courier) past the core worlds. This does ''not'' however apply to the period of 36 years covered by the films and the decades after it covered by the Expanded Universe (see below). There are some in-universe technological achievements that supposedly result in better results (the kolto made by an isolationist monopoly being replaced by the superior bacta made by multiple rival cartels, for instance, as the flesh-healing miracle drug), but none of them are really noticeable through the window the audience sees.
	*'''[[Dune]]:''' One of the major inspirations for ''Star Wars'' (and [[Warhammer 40K]]). At some point in the past, AI went rogue and humanity's struggle against it became a literal holy war (the Butlerian Jihad), after it ended, development of any "thinking machines" was banned by religious fiat. As a result, technological and scientific development has slowed to a crawl, new technology is seen as suspicious, the "[[Drug\|Spice]]" from Arrakis allows people to become human supercomputers, expanded lifetimes, and have space folding, so there was no desire to experiment and find alternatives, the development of personal shields made every other weapon outdated except for melee weapons (unless you shoot a [[lasgun]] into a shield, then the [[Exterminatus\|shooter, the target, and the surrounding landscape are deleted in a massive explosion]]) and the Bene Gesserit and Navigator's Guild collaborated to set up a feudalistic government with full knowledge that it would be easier to control. However, the main plot of the series is eventually revealed to be about making humanity escape this stagnation.		*'''[[Dune]]:''' One of the major inspirations for ''Star Wars'' (and [[Warhammer 40K]]). At some point in the past, AI went rogue and humanity's struggle against it became a literal holy war (the Butlerian Jihad), after it ended, development of any "thinking machines" was banned by religious fiat. As a result, technological and scientific development has slowed to a crawl, new technology is seen as suspicious, the "[[Drug\|Spice]]" from Arrakis allows people to become human supercomputers, expanded lifetimes, and have space folding, so there was no desire to experiment and find alternatives, the development of personal shields made every other weapon outdated except for melee weapons (unless you shoot a [[lasgun]] into a shield, then the [[Exterminatus\|shooter, the target, and the surrounding landscape are deleted in a massive explosion]]) and the Bene Gesserit and Navigator's Guild collaborated to set up a feudalistic government with full knowledge that it would be easier to control. However, the main plot of the series is eventually revealed to be about making humanity escape this stagnation.
	*'''[[Warhammer Fantasy Battles]]:''' Bretonnia is literally in Medieval Stasis despite having one of the most technologically-advanced nations right next door. The Elves of all types give no fucks about advancing their technology, but in their defense what they have still works, they have access to giant monsters such as dragons and hydras and the Dark Elves are a minor exception. The Warriors of Chaos are again literally medieval, but in their case they're Medieval [[Vikings]] who get supplied with advanced tech by the Chaos Dwarf allies or demons. Orcs have not been introduced to the wonders of "Dakka" yet; the Lizardmen still use wood and stone, but are literally designed for specific taskes and make up for it by also using dinosaurs and the best magic in their world. Lastly, the Ogres are pretty much in "Stone Age Stasis" as they're not very intelligent but they've started to reverse engineer blackpower weapons and under Overtyrant Greasus started to discover the benefits of commerce. Human nations outside of Bretonnia are at the tail end of the Renaissaince, while the Empire of Man is in slowly fighting through the early Enlightenment but they are under constant attack from various Eldritch horrors so progress is existent but slow. The only races that have had any technological developments on a grand scale are the Skaven and Dwarfs, and more so the Chaos Dwarfs. The Dwarfs are reluctant to share their technology with anybody other than the Empire and all their inventions must have at least several centuries of successful use before the guilds allow it to be mass-produced. While Skaven have guns, electricity and powered vehicles, most inventions of the Skaven end up blowing up in their faces and rely on the highly dangerous and unstable Warpstone (plus little regard for collateral damage). The Chaos Dwarfs' technology has gotten to the point of tanks and war golems, but it is literally built and run on daemons, souls and bloody sacrifices. You can see why others have not copied the latter two.		*'''[[Warhammer Fantasy Battles]]:''' Bretonnia is literally in Medieval Stasis despite having one of the most technologically-advanced nations right next door. The Elves of all types give no fucks about advancing their technology, but in their defense what they have still works, they have access to giant monsters such as dragons and hydras and the Dark Elves are a minor exception. The Warriors of Chaos are again literally medieval, but in their case they're Medieval [[Vikings]] who get supplied with advanced tech by the Chaos Dwarf allies or demons. Orcs have not been introduced to the wonders of "Dakka" yet; the Lizardmen still use wood and stone, but are literally designed for specific taskes and make up for it by also using dinosaurs and the best magic in their world. Lastly, the Ogres are pretty much in "Stone Age Stasis" as they're not very intelligent but they've started to reverse engineer blackpower weapons and under Overtyrant Greasus started to discover the benefits of commerce. Human nations outside of Bretonnia are at the tail end of the Renaissaince, while the Empire of Man is in slowly fighting through the early Enlightenment but they are under constant attack from various Eldritch horrors so progress is existent but slow. The various elf factions are averse to blackpowder weapons due to environmental damage (for High and Wood elves), using magic and monsters instead of technology and being "...content with weapons that will not blow up in (our) faces" (actual quote from the 5th Ed High Elves armybook). The only races that have had any technological developments on a grand scale are the Skaven and Dwarfs, and more so the Chaos Dwarfs. The Dwarfs are reluctant to share their technology with anybody other than the Empire and all their inventions must have at least several centuries of successful use before the guilds allow it to be mass-produced. While Skaven have guns, electricity and powered vehicles, most inventions of the Skaven end up blowing up in their faces and rely on the highly dangerous and unstable Warpstone (plus little regard for collateral damage). The Chaos Dwarfs' technology has gotten to the point of tanks and war golems, but it is literally built and run on daemons, souls and bloody sacrifices. You can see why others have not copied the latter two.
	** The undead factions are an interesting case. The Vampire Counts vary with Luthor Harkon's pirate fleets using black powder weapons while outside that the most advanced technology seen in that faction was crossbows. The Tomb Kings had varying technology, with their most technologically advanced city, Lybaras, reaching the steampunk level. Also, they have superhuman abilities and being undead eliminates many of the needs that lead people to develop technology (no need to develop automation when undead laborers don't get tired or bored, no need for medicine because the dead don't get sick naturally plus their bodies can be repaired by magic and non-vampire undead don't need sustenance) and they also have magic and monsters.		** The undead factions are an interesting case. The Vampire Counts vary with Luthor Harkon's pirate fleets using black powder weapons while outside that the most advanced technology seen in that faction was crossbows. The Tomb Kings had varying technology, with their most technologically advanced city, Lybaras, reaching the steampunk level. Also, they have superhuman abilities and being undead eliminates many of the needs that lead people to develop technology (no need to develop automation when undead laborers don't get tired or bored, no need for medicine because the dead don't get sick naturally plus their bodies can be repaired by magic and non-vampire undead don't need sustenance) and they also have magic and monsters.
	** Not that any of this matters because the entire world got nuked by the Chaos Gods. The sequel setting, Age of Sigmar, has the successor factions be at roughly the same level as they were at the End Times, but stuff has become understood enough that Steam Tanks and Cannons won't randomly blow up as often and can be reliably mass produced, and it should be pointed out that Mass Production is itself a game changer. Stasis is more then raw technology: it is as much application. The Kharadron Overlords have surpassed steampunk via magic punk. The setting also has more-widely-available magic than the Old World did, significantly changing and improving the qualify of life of its inhabitants (in theory, in practice it's still pretty bad due to Chaos, [[Nagash]], Greenskin and giant rampages and the realms being pretty fucked up places even when those three aren't involved, even Azyr is under a heavy dictatorship to prevent chaos of both lowercase c and capital C varieties).		** Not that any of this matters because the entire world got nuked by the Chaos Gods. The sequel setting, Age of Sigmar, has the successor factions be at roughly the same level as they were at the End Times, but stuff has become understood enough that Steam Tanks and Cannons won't randomly blow up as often and can be reliably mass produced, and it should be pointed out that Mass Production is itself a game changer. Stasis is more then raw technology: it is as much application. The Kharadron Overlords have surpassed steampunk via magic punk. The setting also has more-widely-available magic than the Old World did, significantly changing and improving the qualify of life of its inhabitants (in theory, in practice it's still pretty bad due to Chaos, [[Nagash]], Greenskin and giant rampages and the realms being pretty fucked up places even when those three aren't involved, even Azyr is under a heavy dictatorship to prevent chaos of both lowercase c and capital C varieties).