Roman Empire - Revision history

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2023-06-22T15:43:20Z

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2601:1C0:5001:5320:3C14:35F5:5046:33E2: /* Roman Army */

2023-06-08T04:32:52Z

Roman Army

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:32, 8 June 2023
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	Where Rome really outperformed its peers was in logistics, discipline and military engineering. Wherever the legions went, they build roads and networks of forts and courier stations. During Caesar's invasion of Gaul, his legion famously bridged the Rhine in 18 days (and again later in a week). After the defeat of Carthage, Rome burned the city for two weeks, tore down its walls and enslaved every survivor. In sieges, where other armies might try ladders, Rome would build a wall around the enemy's wall, and then a wall around THAT wall to protect them from forces trying to break the siege, and finally start slowly building a dirt ramp; [[Rogal Dorn\|in the siege of Alesia this amounted to 20 km worth of wall building.]] '''Roman legions do not fuck around.''' They'll go to any length, and they don't leave things half-done.		Where Rome really outperformed its peers was in logistics, discipline and military engineering. Wherever the legions went, they build roads and networks of forts and courier stations. During Caesar's invasion of Gaul, his legion famously bridged the Rhine in 18 days (and again later in a week). After the defeat of Carthage, Rome burned the city for two weeks, tore down its walls and enslaved every survivor. In sieges, where other armies might try ladders, Rome would build a wall around the enemy's wall, and then a wall around THAT wall to protect them from forces trying to break the siege, and finally start slowly building a dirt ramp; [[Rogal Dorn\|in the siege of Alesia this amounted to 20 km worth of wall building.]] '''Roman legions do not fuck around.''' They'll go to any length, and they don't leave things half-done.

			And that is not even the greatest advantage Rome had! In 107 BC for a bunch of reasons Rome reformed it's Army. Before that point the roman army worked like every other army in the world, soldiers would buy there own gear and show up. That meant that armies were small, and had to be composed of troops who had side jobs that let them buy there own swords. If you didn't have property and were poor: you could not be a solider. Under the reforms the Rome would not only pay for there equipment, the state would also give citizenship and Land to veterans. Suddenly every poor person in the empire could suddenly join the army and be assured it have more to fight with then just a sharp stick: and then it also made sure that solider was supplied and able to fight year around. No more voluntary forces that had to leave when the harvest came or the campaign was done, this was an army that was formed of they poor, they had no land and so they set up a system of contract soldiers, Rome had invented the worlds first professional solider. Sure all that sounds perfectly natural now, but from the fall of Rome it took almost a thousand years for the first professional solider to be fielded again. It meant Rome had an endless reserve of manpower. Rome would lose battles but if Rome wanted to it could Grind an opponent down in attrition fighting.

	== Fun Facts and Moronic Misconceptions about Rome ==		== Fun Facts and Moronic Misconceptions about Rome ==

67.174.103.120: /* The Collapse of the Imperium */

2023-06-06T04:37:24Z

The Collapse of the Imperium

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:37, 6 June 2023
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	* The various Legions becoming more loyal to their generals than the Imperium; throughout Rome's history, the Empire had always struggled with the fact that the Roman legions trusted their allegiance more to their local generals than the will of the Senate (although by the time the empire started to collapse, the senate had virtually no power anyway) or the Emperor. Said generals frequently followed Caesar's example and got it into their heads to make themselves Emperors; some of them turned out to be pretty good at work, but far more tended to be better at leading armies than ruling over an empire.		* The various Legions becoming more loyal to their generals than the Imperium; throughout Rome's history, the Empire had always struggled with the fact that the Roman legions trusted their allegiance more to their local generals than the will of the Senate (although by the time the empire started to collapse, the senate had virtually no power anyway) or the Emperor. Said generals frequently followed Caesar's example and got it into their heads to make themselves Emperors; some of them turned out to be pretty good at work, but far more tended to be better at leading armies than ruling over an empire.
	* Said Legions being unable to adapt to new arts of warfare. Footslogging, fortification building, shortsword-and-javelin bearing turtles made of tower shields may have been enough for wild Gauls with no discipline. But when entire tribes of highly mobile horsemen and rapid-moving swarms of densely populated Eastern empires are fought against, it's an entirely different matter. Note that Byzantium, a.k.a Eastern Roman Empire survived for another millennium ''exactly'' because it adapted to its neighbours arsenal, raised its own horse archers named Hippotoxotai after inviting a "barbarian" general or two on how do I shot web, heavy cavalry named Cataphracti (based on Persian Clibinarii), and lightened the legions into rapid deployment.		* Said Legions being unable to adapt to new arts of warfare. Footslogging, fortification building, shortsword-and-javelin bearing turtles made of tower shields may have been enough for wild Gauls with no discipline. But when entire tribes of highly mobile horsemen and rapid-moving swarms of densely populated Eastern empires are fought against, it's an entirely different matter. Note that Byzantium, a.k.a Eastern Roman Empire survived for another millennium ''exactly'' because it adapted to its neighbours arsenal, raised its own horse archers named Hippotoxotai after inviting a "barbarian" general or two on how do I shot web, heavy cavalry named Cataphracti (based on Persian Clibinarii), and lightened the legions into rapid deployment.
	* Economic and famine crises as Roman farmers were out priced by foreign imports; Egypt and Carthage completely shifted the wheat production to the east, and fields in the Western empire were converted to fruit and vegetable orchards, which were quite perishable. It was not until hardy crops from the Americas (like potatoes, corn, and sweet potatoes) reached western and northern Europe several centuries later that said regions developed sufficient food stability to ensure steady population growth. By contrast, the Eastern half of the empire did just fine since they were the half with all the valuable land. Said wealth from food stability and trade enabled t Eastern Empire to bribe off the Germanic and Slavic migrants (until they lost their breadbasket provinces to the Arabs).		* Economic and famine crises as Roman farmers were out priced by foreign imports; Egypt and Carthage completely shifted the wheat production to the east, and fields in the Western empire were converted to fruit and vegetable orchards, which were quite perishable. It was not until hardy crops from the Americas (like potatoes, corn, and sweet potatoes) reached western and northern Europe several centuries later that said regions developed sufficient food stability to ensure steady population growth. By contrast, the Eastern half of the empire did just fine since they were the half with all the valuable land. Said wealth from food stability and trade enabled the Eastern Empire to bribe off the Germanic and Slavic migrants (until they lost their breadbasket provinces to the Arabs).
	* A disastrous combination of heavy urbanization without understanding germ theory led to events like the [[Wikipedia:Antonine Plague\|Antonine Plague]], which killed about 10% of the empire's population.		* A disastrous combination of heavy urbanization without understanding germ theory led to events like the [[Wikipedia:Antonine Plague\|Antonine Plague]], which killed about 10% of the empire's population.
	* [[Barbarian\|Germanic barbarians]], who were fleeing from the Huns and usually rebelled after being constantly treated like shit by the Romans despite being responsible for fighting most of the Romans' wars on their behalf. In hindsight, forcing the migrant Goths to sell their children into slavery for just enough dog meat to avoid starvation was a real dick move. And while all of them paid lip service to the Emperors (both Western and Eastern) as vassals in names, they were more than willing not to fight if their people’s’ interests were ignored.		* [[Barbarian\|Germanic barbarians]], who were fleeing from the Huns and usually rebelled after being constantly treated like shit by the Romans despite being responsible for fighting most of the Romans' wars on their behalf. In hindsight, forcing the migrant Goths to sell their children into slavery for just enough dog meat to avoid starvation was a real dick move. And while all of them paid lip service to the Emperors (both Western and Eastern) as vassals in names, they were more than willing not to fight if their people’s’ interests were ignored.

1d4chan>Redvsdead: /* The Collapse of the Imperium */

2023-06-06T01:53:27Z

The Collapse of the Imperium

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:53, 6 June 2023
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	===The Collapse of the Imperium===		===The Collapse of the Imperium===
	Rome's fall can be attributed to any number of reasons, and any self-styled amateur historian would be more than happy to explain to you his opinions on the subject, but it's widely agreed that there were a number of contributing forces, including but not limited to:		Rome's fall can be attributed to any number of reasons, and any self-styled amateur historian would be more than happy to explain to you his opinions on the subject, but it's widely agreed that there were a number of contributing forces, including but not limited to:
	* Even under the reign of Julius Caesar and the early emperors, cracks were starting to form. Population decline had already begun, especially in the cities where death rates routinely outpaced birth rates; [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/892aud/augustus_is_said_to_be_worried_about_the_low/ in part because ~~the~~ archaic Roman society rules, lead poisoning ~~and~~ urbanization], ~~in part because~~ all of the wealthy landowners ~~had~~ seized up all the good land in Italy and ~~left~~ behind a growing unskilled urban population that needed the state to take care of them. This was what partly fueled the Roman war machine, land and funds needed to support Roman's citizens, but of course they couldn't go conquering forever, so once Rome's borders stalled, and the state's costs increased, something was going to give eventually. And even today we all know that a big, dense urban landscape is not a healthy environment for raising large families economically.		* Even under the reign of Julius Caesar and the early emperors, cracks were starting to form. Population decline had already begun, especially in the cities where death rates routinely outpaced birth rates; [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/892aud/augustus_is_said_to_be_worried_about_the_low/ in part because of archaic Roman society rules, lead poisoning, urbanization], and all of the wealthy landowners having seized up all the good land in Italy and leaving behind a growing unskilled urban population that needed the state to take care of them. This was what partly fueled the Roman war machine, land and funds needed to support Roman's citizens, but of course they couldn't go conquering forever, so once Rome's borders stalled, and the state's costs increased, something was going to give eventually. And even today we all know that a big, dense urban landscape is not a healthy environment for raising large families economically.
	* Increased logistical sluggishness of maintaining a sprawling empire, such that it had to split itself into two because it had become too large for a single Emperor to rule on his own. This solution solved that problem but created new ones down the line, as the Western and Eastern halves of the empire (which were ruled by separate emperors that rarely if ever got along) tended to go to war with each other over petty rivalries.		* Increased logistical sluggishness of maintaining a sprawling empire, such that it had to split itself into two because it had become too large for a single Emperor to rule on his own. This solution solved that problem but created new ones down the line, as the Western and Eastern halves of the empire (which were ruled by separate emperors that rarely if ever got along) tended to go to war with each other over petty rivalries.
	* The various Legions becoming more loyal to their generals than the Imperium; throughout Rome's history, the Empire had always struggled with the fact that the Roman legions trusted their allegiance more to their local generals than the will of the Senate (although by the time the empire started to collapse, the senate had virtually no power anyway) or the Emperor. Said generals frequently followed Caesar's example and got it into their heads to make themselves Emperors; some of them turned out to be pretty good at work, but far more tended to be better at leading armies than ruling over an empire.		* The various Legions becoming more loyal to their generals than the Imperium; throughout Rome's history, the Empire had always struggled with the fact that the Roman legions trusted their allegiance more to their local generals than the will of the Senate (although by the time the empire started to collapse, the senate had virtually no power anyway) or the Emperor. Said generals frequently followed Caesar's example and got it into their heads to make themselves Emperors; some of them turned out to be pretty good at work, but far more tended to be better at leading armies than ruling over an empire.
	* Said Legions being unable to adapt to new arts of warfare. Footslogging, fortification building, shortsword-and-javelin bearing turtles made of tower shields may have been enough for wild Gauls with no discipline. But when entire tribes of highly mobile horsemen and rapid-moving swarms of densely populated Eastern empires are fought against, it's an entirely different matter. Note that Byzantium, a.k.a Eastern Roman Empire survived for another millennium ''exactly'' because it adapted to its neighbours' arsenal, raised its own horse archers named Hippotoxotai after inviting a "barbarian" general or two on how do i shot web, heavy cavalry named Cataphracti (based on Persian Clibinarii), and lightened the legions into rapid deployment.		* Said Legions being unable to adapt to new arts of warfare. Footslogging, fortification building, shortsword-and-javelin bearing turtles made of tower shields may have been enough for wild Gauls with no discipline. But when entire tribes of highly mobile horsemen and rapid-moving swarms of densely populated Eastern empires are fought against, it's an entirely different matter. Note that Byzantium, a.k.a Eastern Roman Empire survived for another millennium ''exactly'' because it adapted to its neighbours arsenal, raised its own horse archers named Hippotoxotai after inviting a "barbarian" general or two on how do I shot web, heavy cavalry named Cataphracti (based on Persian Clibinarii), and lightened the legions into rapid deployment.
	* Economic and famine crises as Roman farmers were out priced by foreign imports; Egypt and Carthage completely shifted the wheat production to the east, and fields in the Western empire were converted to fruit and vegetable orchards, which were quite perishable. It was not until hardy crops from the Americas (like potatoes, corn, and sweet potatoes) reached western and northern Europe several centuries later that said regions developed sufficient food stability to ensure steady population growth. By contrast, the Eastern half of the empire did just fine since they were the half with all the valuable land. Said wealth from food stability and trade enabled t Eastern Empire to bribe off the Germanic and Slavic migrants (until they lost their breadbasket provinces to the Arabs).		* Economic and famine crises as Roman farmers were out priced by foreign imports; Egypt and Carthage completely shifted the wheat production to the east, and fields in the Western empire were converted to fruit and vegetable orchards, which were quite perishable. It was not until hardy crops from the Americas (like potatoes, corn, and sweet potatoes) reached western and northern Europe several centuries later that said regions developed sufficient food stability to ensure steady population growth. By contrast, the Eastern half of the empire did just fine since they were the half with all the valuable land. Said wealth from food stability and trade enabled t Eastern Empire to bribe off the Germanic and Slavic migrants (until they lost their breadbasket provinces to the Arabs).
	* A disastrous combination of heavy urbanization without understanding germ theory led to events like the [[Wikipedia:Antonine Plague\|Antonine Plague]], which killed about 10% of the empire's population.		* A disastrous combination of heavy urbanization without understanding germ theory led to events like the [[Wikipedia:Antonine Plague\|Antonine Plague]], which killed about 10% of the empire's population.

2607:FB91:11D5:4478:451D:E2A3:6402:C27E: /* The Collapse of the Imperium */

2023-06-05T18:35:03Z

The Collapse of the Imperium

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:35, 5 June 2023
Line 39:		Line 39:
	* The various Legions becoming more loyal to their generals than the Imperium; throughout Rome's history, the Empire had always struggled with the fact that the Roman legions trusted their allegiance more to their local generals than the will of the Senate (although by the time the empire started to collapse, the senate had virtually no power anyway) or the Emperor. Said generals frequently followed Caesar's example and got it into their heads to make themselves Emperors; some of them turned out to be pretty good at work, but far more tended to be better at leading armies than ruling over an empire.		* The various Legions becoming more loyal to their generals than the Imperium; throughout Rome's history, the Empire had always struggled with the fact that the Roman legions trusted their allegiance more to their local generals than the will of the Senate (although by the time the empire started to collapse, the senate had virtually no power anyway) or the Emperor. Said generals frequently followed Caesar's example and got it into their heads to make themselves Emperors; some of them turned out to be pretty good at work, but far more tended to be better at leading armies than ruling over an empire.
	* Said Legions being unable to adapt to new arts of warfare. Footslogging, fortification building, shortsword-and-javelin bearing turtles made of tower shields may have been enough for wild Gauls with no discipline. But when entire tribes of highly mobile horsemen and rapid-moving swarms of densely populated Eastern empires are fought against, it's an entirely different matter. Note that Byzantium, a.k.a Eastern Roman Empire survived for another millennium ''exactly'' because it adapted to its neighbours' arsenal, raised its own horse archers named Hippotoxotai after inviting a "barbarian" general or two on how do i shot web, heavy cavalry named Cataphracti (based on Persian Clibinarii), and lightened the legions into rapid deployment.		* Said Legions being unable to adapt to new arts of warfare. Footslogging, fortification building, shortsword-and-javelin bearing turtles made of tower shields may have been enough for wild Gauls with no discipline. But when entire tribes of highly mobile horsemen and rapid-moving swarms of densely populated Eastern empires are fought against, it's an entirely different matter. Note that Byzantium, a.k.a Eastern Roman Empire survived for another millennium ''exactly'' because it adapted to its neighbours' arsenal, raised its own horse archers named Hippotoxotai after inviting a "barbarian" general or two on how do i shot web, heavy cavalry named Cataphracti (based on Persian Clibinarii), and lightened the legions into rapid deployment.
	* Economic and famine crises as Roman farmers were out priced by foreign imports; Egypt and Carthage completely shifted the wheat production to the east, and fields in the Western empire were converted to fruit and vegetable orchards, which were quite perishable. It was not until hardy crops from the Americas (like potatoes, corn, and sweet potatoes) reached western and northern Europe several centuries later that said regions developed sufficient food stability to ensure steady population growth. By contrast, the Eastern half of the empire did just fine since they were the half with all the valuable land.		* Economic and famine crises as Roman farmers were out priced by foreign imports; Egypt and Carthage completely shifted the wheat production to the east, and fields in the Western empire were converted to fruit and vegetable orchards, which were quite perishable. It was not until hardy crops from the Americas (like potatoes, corn, and sweet potatoes) reached western and northern Europe several centuries later that said regions developed sufficient food stability to ensure steady population growth. By contrast, the Eastern half of the empire did just fine since they were the half with all the valuable land. Said wealth from food stability and trade enabled t Eastern Empire to bribe off the Germanic and Slavic migrants (until they lost their breadbasket provinces to the Arabs).
	* A disastrous combination of heavy urbanization without understanding germ theory led to events like the [[Wikipedia:Antonine Plague\|Antonine Plague]], which killed about 10% of the empire's population.		* A disastrous combination of heavy urbanization without understanding germ theory led to events like the [[Wikipedia:Antonine Plague\|Antonine Plague]], which killed about 10% of the empire's population.
	* [[Barbarian\|Germanic barbarians]], who were fleeing from the Huns and usually rebelled after being constantly treated like shit by the Romans despite being responsible for fighting most of the Romans' wars on their behalf. In hindsight, forcing the migrant Goths to sell their children into slavery for just enough dog meat to avoid starvation was a real dick move.		* [[Barbarian\|Germanic barbarians]], who were fleeing from the Huns and usually rebelled after being constantly treated like shit by the Romans despite being responsible for fighting most of the Romans' wars on their behalf. In hindsight, forcing the migrant Goths to sell their children into slavery for just enough dog meat to avoid starvation was a real dick move. And while all of them paid lip service to the Emperors (both Western and Eastern) as vassals in names, they were more than willing not to fight if their people’s’ interests were ignored.
	* [[Game of Thrones]]-style court intrigue: Emperors killing emperors, perpetual backstabbing between dynasties, trading places like it's fucking musical chairs, made even worse by the fact that the Empire never had any kind of consistent succession rules at any point during its history. At least the [[Adeptus Custodes\|Praetorians]] were ready to off an aspiring Emperor if they believed he was too insane to hold office...or if they felt they weren't getting paid enough, or if they thought they could get more benefits from someone else. On one occasion the Praetorians even sold the position of Emperor to the highest bidder; the "lucky" buyer didn't even last three months before getting overthrown and executed by a rival claimant. This had another side effect of letting the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium) lose the recipe for a primitive flamethrower (royal family hid the instructions separately, only for everyone who knew where they were to die in one of the many coups) and get dog piled by Muslims.		* [[Game of Thrones]]-style court intrigue: Emperors killing emperors, perpetual backstabbing between dynasties, trading places like it's fucking musical chairs, made even worse by the fact that the Empire never had any kind of consistent succession rules at any point during its history. At least the [[Adeptus Custodes\|Praetorians]] were ready to off an aspiring Emperor if they believed he was too insane to hold office...or if they felt they weren't getting paid enough, or if they thought they could get more benefits from someone else. On one occasion the Praetorians even sold the position of Emperor to the highest bidder; the "lucky" buyer didn't even last three months before getting overthrown and executed by a rival claimant. This had another side effect of letting the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium) lose the recipe for a primitive flamethrower (royal family hid the instructions separately, only for everyone who knew where they were to die in one of the many coups) and get dog piled by Muslims.
	* Lead poisoning from widespread use of lead-sealed pipe and pewter-ware; however, this is balanced against them having comparatively clean water for such large cities.		* Lead poisoning from widespread use of lead-sealed pipe and pewter-ware; however, this is balanced against them having comparatively clean water for such large cities.