Stupid Neutral - Revision history

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2A02:A03F:C17D:A400:4DD3:65DE:D185:E999: /* Examples */

2022-10-05T12:28:54Z

Examples

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:28, 5 October 2022
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	* Played for laughs in [[Futurama RPG\|Futurama]] with the Neutrals, a race of humanoid aliens whose gimmick is that they act [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ as neutral as possible]. Hell, their motto is literally ''Live Free or Don't'', and they'd likely shrug either way.		* Played for laughs in [[Futurama RPG\|Futurama]] with the Neutrals, a race of humanoid aliens whose gimmick is that they act [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ as neutral as possible]. Hell, their motto is literally ''Live Free or Don't'', and they'd likely shrug either way.
	* Jemorille the Exile is an Argenach [[Rilmani]] who managed the impressive feat of being ''so'' stupid about Neutrality that he got the other Rilmani to exile him to Sigil to stop him from fucking over any more Prime Material worlds with his dumb ideas; if his boasting is to be believed, he created the Temple of Elemental Evil and taught [[Rajaat]] defiling magic, making him the asshole responsible for [[Dark Sun]].		* Jemorille the Exile is an Argenach [[Rilmani]] who managed the impressive feat of being ''so'' stupid about Neutrality that he got the other Rilmani to exile him to Sigil to stop him from fucking over any more Prime Material worlds with his dumb ideas; if his boasting is to be believed, he created the Temple of Elemental Evil and taught [[Rajaat]] defiling magic, making him the asshole responsible for [[Dark Sun]].
	* Kino from the [[anime]] ''Kino no Tabi'' has been accused of this by some detractors. Without [[Skub\|going too deep into it]] and creating a wall text explaining every point on this, let's explore ~~a single~~ moment from the show which is widely considered a moment of Stupid Neutrality: Kino has just left a country which thinks the apocalypse is coming because their book of prophecies [[Lawful Stupid\|has told them so]]. When that doesn't happen, a priest tells that the apocalypse has been postponed by 30 years. She ~~them~~ arrives at another country, where she finds that a poet was commissioned by the king to write a sad poem, and did so only after his wife committed suicide. Years later, after the poet died, society arranges for a young girl to recite the [[VTNL\|cryptic and extremely long]] sad poem every day. As Kino leaves, the border officer tells her that the poem was written down ~~and~~ a nearby country acquired it, [[Just as planned\|calling it the Book of ~~Prophesy~~]]. After that, while camped overnight under the stars, Kino is interrupted by an army from the Land of Prophecies invading the Sad Land. When she asks why, a soldier responds that a new interpretation of the Book of ~~Prophesy~~ indicated that the next country [[derp\|is responsible for their world coming to an end]]. ~~Now here's where Kino's neutrality is called into question, she~~ knows that the country which has The Book of Prophecies acquired the poem in a accident and now think it's some kind of cryptic prophecy to the end of the world when it's actually just the [[edgy]] ramblings of a sad man~~, and instead~~ of telling that to the soldiers she just quietly watches as they march to the ~~sad country~~ and ~~probably~~ go on to [[Exterminatus\|exterminate everyone]] in there over a simple mistake. ~~Even~~ if she didn't manage to convince them, it would have cost her literally nothing to try explain the true nature of the book and the "prophecy" inside it. Because of her neutrality and refusal to take ANY action, including giving logical statements outside of self-defense, she [[Grimdark\|basically condemned a country to death]] even as [[Derp\|she feels bad for their situation]].		* Kino from the [[anime]] ''Kino no Tabi'' has been accused of this by some detractors. Without [[Skub\|going too deep into it]] and creating a wall text explaining every point on this, let's explore ''the'' moment from the show which is widely considered a moment of Stupid Neutrality: Kino has just left a country which thinks the apocalypse is coming because their book of prophecies [[Lawful Stupid\|has told them so]]. When that doesn't happen, a priest tells them that the apocalypse has been postponed by 30 years. She then arrives at another country, where she finds that a poet was commissioned by the king to write a sad poem, and did so only after his wife committed suicide. Years later, after the poet died, society arranges for a young girl to recite the [[VTNL\|cryptic and extremely long]] sad poem every day. As Kino leaves, the border officer tells her that after the poem was written down a nearby country acquired it, [[Just as planned\|calling it the Book of Prophecies]]. After that, while camped overnight under the stars, Kino is interrupted by an army from the Land of Prophecies invading the Sad Land. When she asks why, a soldier responds that a new interpretation of the Book of Prophecies indicated that the next country [[derp\|is responsible for their world coming to an end]]. She fully knows that the country which has 'The Book of Prophecies' acquired the poem in a accident, and they now think it's some kind of cryptic prophecy to the end of the world, when it's actually just the [[edgy]] ramblings of a sad man. Instead of telling that to the soldiers, she just quietly watches as they march to the Sad Country and go on to [[Exterminatus\|exterminate everyone]] in there over a simple mistake. Now here's where Kino's neutrality is called into question: even if she didn't manage to convince them it would have cost her literally nothing to try explain the true nature of the book and the "prophecy" inside it. Because of her neutrality and refusal to take ANY action, including giving logical statements outside of self-defense, she [[Grimdark\|basically condemned a country to death]] even as [[Derp\|she feels bad for their situation]].

	[[Category:Dungeons & Dragons]][[Category:Alignment]][[Category:Stupid Alignments]]		[[Category:Dungeons & Dragons]][[Category:Alignment]][[Category:Stupid Alignments]]

63.231.61.162 at 04:08, 7 May 2022

2022-05-07T04:08:56Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:08, 7 May 2022
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	* [[Mordenkainen]] (basically the [[Greyhawk]] equivalent of [[Elminster]]) actually lives by the Stupid Neutral creedo of "Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are ''all'' dangerous if they are allowed to get too strong, so the best I can do for the world is keep them balanced". He runs a secret society dedicated to fucking shit over for whoever or whatever he thinks is being too successful and "threatening the Balance". Perhaps fittingly, he's an Abjurer and his legacy spells all relate to wrecking magic - the buffs-eating Mordenkainen's Warding Whip, or the magic item-killing Mordenkainen's Disjunction. He does try to justify this position as Angels would consider [[lawful Stupid\|Neutrality as the next great evil]] without contrasting extremes, and everyone knows why a law or chaos victory would suck. It's not that convincing. Notably, he is actually listed as being ''Chaotic'' Neutral in alignment in his most recent appearances in 5e, implying that his overzealous dedication to neutrality ironically makes him not actually neutral anymore.		* [[Mordenkainen]] (basically the [[Greyhawk]] equivalent of [[Elminster]]) actually lives by the Stupid Neutral creedo of "Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are ''all'' dangerous if they are allowed to get too strong, so the best I can do for the world is keep them balanced". He runs a secret society dedicated to fucking shit over for whoever or whatever he thinks is being too successful and "threatening the Balance". Perhaps fittingly, he's an Abjurer and his legacy spells all relate to wrecking magic - the buffs-eating Mordenkainen's Warding Whip, or the magic item-killing Mordenkainen's Disjunction. He does try to justify this position as Angels would consider [[lawful Stupid\|Neutrality as the next great evil]] without contrasting extremes, and everyone knows why a law or chaos victory would suck. It's not that convincing. Notably, he is actually listed as being ''Chaotic'' Neutral in alignment in his most recent appearances in 5e, implying that his overzealous dedication to neutrality ironically makes him not actually neutral anymore.
	* Played for laughs in [[Futurama RPG\|Futurama]] with the Neutrals, a race of humanoid aliens whose gimmick is that they act [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ as neutral as possible]. Hell, their motto is literally ''Live Free or Don't'', and they'd likely shrug either way.		* Played for laughs in [[Futurama RPG\|Futurama]] with the Neutrals, a race of humanoid aliens whose gimmick is that they act [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ as neutral as possible]. Hell, their motto is literally ''Live Free or Don't'', and they'd likely shrug either way.
			* Jemorille the Exile is an Argenach [[Rilmani]] who managed the impressive feat of being ''so'' stupid about Neutrality that he got the other Rilmani to exile him to Sigil to stop him from fucking over any more Prime Material worlds with his dumb ideas; if his boasting is to be believed, he created the Temple of Elemental Evil and taught [[Rajaat]] defiling magic, making him the asshole responsible for [[Dark Sun]].
	* Kino from the [[anime]] ''Kino no Tabi'' has been accused of this by some detractors. Without [[Skub\|going too deep into it]] and creating a wall text explaining every point on this, let's explore a single moment from the show which is widely considered a moment of Stupid Neutrality: Kino has just left a country which thinks the apocalypse is coming because their book of prophecies [[Lawful Stupid\|has told them so]]. When that doesn't happen, a priest tells that the apocalypse has been postponed by 30 years. She them arrives at another country, where she finds that a poet was commissioned by the king to write a sad poem, and did so only after his wife committed suicide. Years later, after the poet died, society arranges for a young girl to recite the [[VTNL\|cryptic and extremely long]] sad poem every day. As Kino leaves, the border officer tells her that the poem was written down and a nearby country acquired it, [[Just as planned\|calling it the Book of Prophesy]]. After that, while camped overnight under the stars, Kino is interrupted by an army from the Land of Prophecies invading the Sad Land. When she asks why, a soldier responds that a new interpretation of the Book of Prophesy indicated that the next country [[derp\|is responsible for their world coming to an end]]. Now here's where Kino's neutrality is called into question, she knows that the country which has The Book of Prophecies acquired the poem in a accident and now think it's some kind of cryptic prophecy to the end of the world when it's actually just the [[edgy]] ramblings of a sad man, and instead of telling that to the soldiers she just quietly watches as they march to the sad country and probably go on to [[Exterminatus\|exterminate everyone]] in there over a simple mistake. Even if she didn't manage to convince them, it would have cost her literally nothing to try explain the true nature of the book and the "prophecy" inside it. Because of her neutrality and refusal to take ANY action, including giving logical statements outside of self-defense, she [[Grimdark\|basically condemned a country to death]] even as [[Derp\|she feels bad for their situation]].		* Kino from the [[anime]] ''Kino no Tabi'' has been accused of this by some detractors. Without [[Skub\|going too deep into it]] and creating a wall text explaining every point on this, let's explore a single moment from the show which is widely considered a moment of Stupid Neutrality: Kino has just left a country which thinks the apocalypse is coming because their book of prophecies [[Lawful Stupid\|has told them so]]. When that doesn't happen, a priest tells that the apocalypse has been postponed by 30 years. She them arrives at another country, where she finds that a poet was commissioned by the king to write a sad poem, and did so only after his wife committed suicide. Years later, after the poet died, society arranges for a young girl to recite the [[VTNL\|cryptic and extremely long]] sad poem every day. As Kino leaves, the border officer tells her that the poem was written down and a nearby country acquired it, [[Just as planned\|calling it the Book of Prophesy]]. After that, while camped overnight under the stars, Kino is interrupted by an army from the Land of Prophecies invading the Sad Land. When she asks why, a soldier responds that a new interpretation of the Book of Prophesy indicated that the next country [[derp\|is responsible for their world coming to an end]]. Now here's where Kino's neutrality is called into question, she knows that the country which has The Book of Prophecies acquired the poem in a accident and now think it's some kind of cryptic prophecy to the end of the world when it's actually just the [[edgy]] ramblings of a sad man, and instead of telling that to the soldiers she just quietly watches as they march to the sad country and probably go on to [[Exterminatus\|exterminate everyone]] in there over a simple mistake. Even if she didn't manage to convince them, it would have cost her literally nothing to try explain the true nature of the book and the "prophecy" inside it. Because of her neutrality and refusal to take ANY action, including giving logical statements outside of self-defense, she [[Grimdark\|basically condemned a country to death]] even as [[Derp\|she feels bad for their situation]].

	[[Category:Dungeons & Dragons]][[Category:Alignment]][[Category:Stupid Alignments]]		[[Category:Dungeons & Dragons]][[Category:Alignment]][[Category:Stupid Alignments]]

1d4chan>MrPhantom: /* Non-Stupid Neutral */

2022-05-04T13:30:21Z

Non-Stupid Neutral

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:30, 4 May 2022
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	===Non-Stupid Neutral===		===Non-Stupid Neutral===
	A true neutral character without stupidity is possible, of course. Some examples include a character motivated by enlightened self-interest ("I will save the world because I live here and keep my stuff here"); a character who is playing the angles ("The world is full of powerful factions and I would rather work with the slavers and crusaders than risk my life trying to overthrow them"); a character motivated by an art or science ("I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was"); or simply a character with multiple motives, good and evil, that roughly balance out to neutral.		A true neutral character without stupidity is possible, of course. Some examples include a character motivated by enlightened self-interest ("I will save the world because I live here and keep my stuff here"); a character who is playing the angles ("The world is full of powerful factions and I would rather work with the slavers and crusaders than risk my life trying to overthrow them"); a character motivated by an art or science ("I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was"); or simply a character with multiple motives, good and evil, that roughly balance out to neutral.
	Some people prefer non-stupid Neutral to be "evil is bad and all, but I can't be bothered to do anything much about it." This can be VERY stupid for a PC, however. A PC is a miserable bundle of drama and heroics, it wouldn't do for them not to give even the slightest care.		Some people prefer non-stupid Neutral to be "evil is bad and all, but I can't be bothered to do anything much about it." This can be VERY stupid for a PC, however. A PC is a miserable bundle of drama and heroics, it wouldn't do for them not to give even the slightest care. Even in this instance, "I want to make money and selling my combat services to good guys is a fine way to keep trouble off my back" is a far more logical True Neutral adventurer than "I don't give a shit".

	Normal people, however, are often neutral - it's not that they don't care per se, it's more that they want what's best for themselves and those closest to them, and don't really care what provides that safety, good or bad. They care, just not about philosophy and the grand scale of things. In psychology terms, neutral people have their hands full with surviving and, as long as those ends aren't met, they can't be but ''so'' bothered with lofty ideals.		Normal people, however, are often neutral - it's not that they don't care per se, it's more that they want what's best for themselves and those closest to them, and don't really care what provides that safety, good or bad. They care, just not about philosophy and the grand scale of things. In psychology terms, neutral people have their hands full with surviving and, as long as those ends aren't met, they can't be but ''so'' bothered with lofty ideals.

104.220.162.108: /* Non-Stupid Neutral */

2022-03-21T06:05:18Z

Non-Stupid Neutral

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:05, 21 March 2022
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	Some people prefer non-stupid Neutral to be "evil is bad and all, but I can't be bothered to do anything much about it." This can be VERY stupid for a PC, however. A PC is a miserable bundle of drama and heroics, it wouldn't do for them not to give even the slightest care.		Some people prefer non-stupid Neutral to be "evil is bad and all, but I can't be bothered to do anything much about it." This can be VERY stupid for a PC, however. A PC is a miserable bundle of drama and heroics, it wouldn't do for them not to give even the slightest care.

	Normal people, however, are often neutral - it's not that they don't care per ~~say~~, it's more that they want what's best for themselves and those closest to them, and don't really care what provides that safety, good or bad. They care, just not about philosophy and the grand scale of things. In psychology terms, neutral people have their hands full with surviving and, as long as those ends aren't met, they can't be but ''so'' bothered with lofty ideals.		Normal people, however, are often neutral - it's not that they don't care per se, it's more that they want what's best for themselves and those closest to them, and don't really care what provides that safety, good or bad. They care, just not about philosophy and the grand scale of things. In psychology terms, neutral people have their hands full with surviving and, as long as those ends aren't met, they can't be but ''so'' bothered with lofty ideals.

	==Examples==		==Examples==

1d4chan>SpectralTime: /* Active Neutrality */

2021-10-17T14:08:50Z

Active Neutrality

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:08, 17 October 2021
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	#A person who has no actual grasp of either.		#A person who has no actual grasp of either.
	#Someone who spends their life having no impact on anyone or anything whatsoever.		#Someone who spends their life having no impact on anyone or anything whatsoever.

			Notable for being an unfortunate component of ''D&D'' history, both because of the aforeshade-thrown Mordenkainen's high and enlightened philosophy of the Balance, the [[Dragonlance]] campaign setting's being built around the idea that Good just turns Evil if it actually wins, and the [[druid]] class pre-third edition theoretically being required to ensure neutrality triumphs if Good is too strong. All of these are corruptions of ''actual'' philosophical and religious notions of moral balance in the universe (most notably, in Taoism neither of the vital forces of yin and yang are "evil" and "evil" is really an imbalance ''within'' the universe to be corrected) and in practice are just clumsy excuses for why high-level NPCs aren't sorting shit out instead of you and/or why the setting keeps getting fucked up despite the good guys racking up wins.

	===Non-Stupid Neutral===		===Non-Stupid Neutral===

1d4chan>SpectralTime: /* Definition */

2021-10-17T14:03:00Z

Definition

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:03, 17 October 2021
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	But there are a number of problems maintaining that "True" Neutral status, and that problem mostly surrounds the fact that as sentient creatures, we all understand the concept of morality and law, even if we as people don't agree with them. Thus in roleplaying terms, people who espouse "neutrality" generally either accept it and work with it, or can't be bothered by it and events happen anyway.		But there are a number of problems maintaining that "True" Neutral status, and that problem mostly surrounds the fact that as sentient creatures, we all understand the concept of morality and law, even if we as people don't agree with them. Thus in roleplaying terms, people who espouse "neutrality" generally either accept it and work with it, or can't be bothered by it and events happen anyway.

	In theory, a "proper" True Neutral would be more reactive, basically not going out of your way to do anything evil or good and just getting on with things like a normal person - if a sweet payday comes up that requires killing a few folks, you do it since you need the money and you think you can get away with it, rather than for any ideological reason or out of a desire to kill; then,1 you pay your lawful taxes because to do otherwise just invites trouble.		In theory, a "proper" True Neutral would be more reactive, basically not going out of your way to do anything evil or good and just getting on with things like a normal person - if a sweet payday comes up that requires killing a few folks you didn't like anyway, you do it since you need the money and you think you can get away with it, rather than for any ideological reason or out of a desire to kill; then you pay your lawful taxes because to do otherwise just invites trouble.

	Stupid Neutrality generally requires either being active about it ''(i.e. a conscious desire to maintain a neutral status)'' or absolutely passive ''(i.e. you don't factor important things like consequences into your decision making at all)''. There ''is'' another way, however...		Stupid Neutrality generally requires either being active about it ''(i.e. a conscious desire to maintain a neutral status)'' or absolutely passive ''(i.e. you don't factor important things like consequences into your decision making at all)''. There ''is'' another way, however...

1d4chan>KeronKnight: /* Active Neutrality */

2021-10-17T05:44:51Z

Active Neutrality

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:44, 17 October 2021
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	WANNABE True Neutral players are making a stance on neutrality, as if the cosmos needs to keep good and evil in a state of balance and that neither is better than the other. But if you think a mystic balance needs to be enforced to the point of anal retention, then congratulations: you've just become Lawful Neutral, since all you're doing is [[Just as Planned\|imposing or restoring the Universal order]].		WANNABE True Neutral players are making a stance on neutrality, as if the cosmos needs to keep good and evil in a state of balance and that neither is better than the other. But if you think a mystic balance needs to be enforced to the point of anal retention, then congratulations: you've just become Lawful Neutral, since all you're doing is [[Just as Planned\|imposing or restoring the Universal order]].

	This holds especially true if the player is the sort of obsessive narc who tells his compatriots to stop being so good or lawful because the universe is keeping score and needs the balance tipped carefully in the other direction - [[Stupid Evil\|perils of checklisting your morality aside]], if you're so intent on see-sawing back and forward on the alignment axis that you eventually start beating up Angels because [[Derp\|"the universe needs balancing out"]], then that's pretty much evil in itself. A mass majority of those Angels weren't going to go out of their way to do ''you'' any harm unless you did something REALLY bad to piss them off - like say, [[Fail\|declaring yourself the arbiter of balance and deigning to attack '''''celestial beings''''' for not doing so the way ''you'' wanted.]]		This holds especially true if the player is the sort of obsessive narc who tells his compatriots to stop being so good or lawful because the universe is keeping score and needs the balance tipped carefully in the other direction - [[Stupid Evil\|perils of checklisting your morality aside]], if you're so intent on see-sawing back and forward on the alignment axis that you eventually start beating up Angels because [[Derp\|"the universe needs balancing out"]], then that's pretty much evil in itself. A mass majority of those Angels weren't going to go out of their way to do ''you'' any harm unless you did something REALLY bad to piss them off - like say, [[Fail\|declaring]] [[Mordenkainen\|''yourself'']] [[Fail\|the arbiter of balance and deigning to attack '''''celestial beings''''' for not doing so the way ''you'' wanted.]]

	Anyone demonstrating the willingness to even consider this angle is basically Neutral Evil with a wig on, because not only is such an act blatantly evil, there's few ways to make it anything other than destructively self-serving besides some Mr. Fantastic-tier mental gymnastics. On a similar note: players who kick a puppy just to counter-balance their "good mojo" and force themselves back to neutrality are Chaotic plain and simple and can just fuck off.		Anyone demonstrating the willingness to even consider this angle is basically Neutral Evil with a wig on, because not only is such an act blatantly evil, there's few ways to make it anything other than destructively self-serving besides some Mr. Fantastic-tier mental gymnastics. On a similar note: players who kick a puppy just to counter-balance their "good mojo" and force themselves back to neutrality are Chaotic plain and simple and can just fuck off.

107.77.197.117: /* Non-Stupid Neutral */

2021-04-16T20:24:27Z

Non-Stupid Neutral

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:24, 16 April 2021
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	===Non-Stupid Neutral===		===Non-Stupid Neutral===
	A true neutral character without stupidity is possible, of course. Some examples include a character motivated by enlightened self-interest ("I will save the world because I live here and keep my stuff here"); a character who is playing the angles ("The world is full of powerful factions and I would rather work with the slavers and crusaders than ~~try and~~ overthrow them"); a character motivated by an art or science ("I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was"); or simply a character with multiple motives, good and evil, that roughly balance out to neutral.		A true neutral character without stupidity is possible, of course. Some examples include a character motivated by enlightened self-interest ("I will save the world because I live here and keep my stuff here"); a character who is playing the angles ("The world is full of powerful factions and I would rather work with the slavers and crusaders than risk my life trying to overthrow them"); a character motivated by an art or science ("I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was"); or simply a character with multiple motives, good and evil, that roughly balance out to neutral.
	Some people prefer non-stupid Neutral to be "evil is bad and all, but I can't be bothered to do anything much about it." This can be VERY stupid for a PC, however. A PC is a miserable bundle of drama and heroics, it wouldn't do for them not to give even the slightest care.		Some people prefer non-stupid Neutral to be "evil is bad and all, but I can't be bothered to do anything much about it." This can be VERY stupid for a PC, however. A PC is a miserable bundle of drama and heroics, it wouldn't do for them not to give even the slightest care.