The Last Church - Revision history

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1d4chan>Amalvi: Undo revision 862714 by 121.44.94.71 (talk) The militant atheist who ruined this page marked as "awesome" should have just written "Another alternative take" instead of turning the emperor into his propaganda mouthpiece

2023-03-06T09:37:30Z

Undo revision 862714 by 121.44.94.71 (talk) The militant atheist who ruined this page marked as "awesome" should have just written "Another alternative take" instead of turning the emperor into his propaganda mouthpiece

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:37, 6 March 2023
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	==Plot Summary==		==Plot Summary==
	In the titular last church, the very last worshipper and priest on Earth, Uriah Olathaire, is visited by a mysterious figure who tells Uriah to call him "Revelation" when asked for his name. They talk about why the church is the last of its kind, and what happened to all of the faithful who once cherished it so much. "Revelation" argues about all of the harm that religious worship and organizations have inflicted on humanity throughout history (~~solid truths, wilfully ignored by~~ the ~~religious throughout the ages~~), whilst the priest attempts to refute it ~~(unsuccessfully)~~. Finally, Revelation reveals himself as the Emperor of Mankind, and more specifically as the being who originally (and unintentionally due to Uriah's experiences during a brief and dramatic encounter between the two during the Unification Wars ~~which is entirely the point the Emperor was trying to make regarding the confirmation bias of the religiously focused and stupid~~) inspired the priest to believe in his religion. He then gives the priest a chance to recant his false beliefs and leave; the church will be destroyed, but he does not have to perish as well.		In the titular last church, the very last worshipper and priest on Earth, Uriah Olathaire, is visited by a mysterious figure who tells Uriah to call him "Revelation" when asked for his name. They talk about why the church is the last of its kind, and what happened to all of the faithful who once cherished it so much. "Revelation" argues about all of the harm that religious worship and organizations have inflicted on humanity throughout history (despite his examples being blatant lies and the opposite of what really happened in history), whilst the priest attempts to refute it. Finally, Revelation reveals himself as the Emperor of Mankind, and more specifically as the being who originally (and unintentionally due to Uriah's experiences during a brief and dramatic encounter between the two during the Unification Wars) inspired the priest to believe in his religion. He then gives the priest a chance to recant his false beliefs and leave; the church will be destroyed, but he does not have to perish as well.

	The priest refuses. Instead, he points out the Emperor's hypocrisy in the various things he has done - and in which doing made him no different than the crusaders and fanatics of the past. The Emperor disregards Uriah's words ~~(because unlike those men of the past, the Emperor has the wisdom of hard fought knowledge and foresight, to know this is the only true road to take for humanity)~~ and escorts him outside before his troops start destroying the church. As his church is destroyed, Uriah gives the Emperor one last warning about the folly of his plan before calmly walking back in to the church, preferring to die with it. He prays while he waits for death, crushed beneath the rubble.		The priest refuses. Instead, he points out the Emperor's hypocrisy in the various things he has done - and in which doing made him no different than the crusaders and fanatics of the past. The Emperor disregards Uriah's words and escorts him outside before his troops start destroying the church. As his church is destroyed, Uriah gives the Emperor one last warning about the folly of his plan before calmly walking back in to the church, preferring to die with it. He prays while he waits for death, crushed beneath the rubble.

	The Emperor dismisses him as a lost cause and moves on. As the rain lifts, and the morning sun rises over the smoldering remains of the last church on Terra; inside, a broken clock, prophesied to chime only when the world is at an end, begins to softly ring...		The Emperor dismisses him as a lost cause and moves on. As the rain lifts, and the morning sun rises over the smoldering remains of the last church on Terra; inside, a broken clock, prophesied to chime only when the world is at an end, begins to softly ring...
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	==Moral==		==Moral==

	The moral of ~~this~~ story ~~was that there wasn't supposed~~ to ~~be one~~; it was ~~supposed~~ to ~~be thought-provoking on~~ the ~~part~~ of the ~~author~~. ~~That anyone who takes anything away from this seriously tends to have~~ a ~~problem with how atheistic~~ the ~~Emperor comes across. He was supposed to come across~~ as ~~an arrogant pompous tyrant;~~ that ~~was the point~~ of ~~His perspective~~. ~~That however does not detract from~~ the fact that ~~He was also right~~; ~~it just makes it unpalatable~~.		The moral of the story is a lot more complicated and relevant than most would think. The Emperor is a well-intentioned extremist fighting against four monstrously powerful daemonic gods and trying to starve them out by spreading the Imperial Truth. He made mistakes, yes, but his intentions were pure (sort of; his methods weren’t at all necessary, merely easier than worrying about people calling him out on immoral acts, as proven when his ultimate rebuttal to Uriah calling him out was to eliminate him). [[Tolkien\|Ah, but good intentions matter not. Only good deeds]]. In this he had the stereotypical view towards religion that some atheists have: that it is the cause of most of humanity's problems including much of the killing and/or all the wars in human history. This ignores any and everything else that was a factor in said problems/wars, the good various religions have inspired as well as the fact that those same negative behaviors and actions are also found in non-religious people and '''other''' modes of thought (such as his own) also cause untold suffering. It also ignores the fact that any time extremists act on their religion, their beliefs are almost always directly contradictory to their religion (any successful religion teaches tolerance to an extent, to avoid constant fighting within and without; extremists are anything but). So if anything, the Emperor should have made religions enforce their own teachings.

	The Emperor ~~is a well-intentioned~~ secular ~~extremist fighting against four monstrously powerful daemonic entities~~ and ~~trying~~ to ~~curb their reach by spreading~~ the ~~Imperial Truth~~. The ~~point of the Imperial Truth is not to starve Chaos, but to limit/curb humanity's instinct~~ to ~~reach out~~ for ~~succour and thus be susceptible~~ to ~~the whispers~~ that ~~answer back~~. ~~He made mistakes, yes, but his intentions were pure (sort of; his methods weren’t at all necessary, merely easier than worrying about people calling him out~~ on immoral ~~acts~~, ~~as proven when his ultimate rebuttal to Uriah calling him out~~ was to ~~eliminate him)~~.		The story also is about the Emperor's adamant refusal to accept that extremists are extremists, whether religious or secular. The extremists who might have become religious extremists instead become secular extremists thanks to his own secularization of his Imperium and this comes back to bite humanity horribly for the next ten thousand years. The Emperor himself was prepared to do whatever it took for his beliefs because it appeared to him that he was undeniably correct - just like extremists. The moral is that any reason based on rejection is immoral reason: case in point, the Emperor-led Imperium purged so much and so often that its sheer scale of atrocity was part of the traitor Primarchs’ motivation to rebel.

	~~In this,~~ He ~~had~~ the ~~stereotypical view towards religion~~ that ~~some atheists have:~~ that ~~humanity has a proclivity for leaning on explaining~~ the ~~inexplicable away with make-believe~~ and ~~that eventually it is twisted~~ to ~~darker more nefarious purposes~~. ~~However,~~ the Emperor ~~focuses on~~ the ~~fact that~~ all of that ~~could be forgiven from religion~~ if ~~it wasn~~'~~t so dogmatic~~ about ~~refusing~~ to ~~accept any reality bar its own in spite of evidence~~ to ~~the contrary~~. ~~Of course~~, ~~it is rightfully countered that religion is not the sole cause of~~ this ~~type of errant~~ and ~~destructive thinking/behaviour from Mankind and it dismisses any comfort~~, ~~real or imagined~~, ~~that religion brings to the uneducated and simple-minded masses. That to remove that crutch without offering~~ a ~~replacement is doomed to fail as Mankind is hardwired to seek meaning where none evidently exists~~; ~~thus ignoring the inherent flaw~~ in the ~~Imperial Truth: that without religion;~~ the ~~less fortunate~~ and ~~educated~~ of ~~Mankind~~ (~~aka~~ the ~~bulk~~) ~~continues to seek answers to questions that can~~'~~t be answered and that~~ Chaos ~~is all too willing~~ to ~~answer~~.		He was also under the belief that it was faith in general that makes the Chaos Gods stronger and the [[Imperial Truth]] was an attempt to stop them. What the Emperor failed to understand was that the Chaos Gods were powered not only by faith, but by emotions as well as aspects of reality itself such as change (which also means wiping out all life probably would fail to destroy Chaos). It has been argued that if the Emperor had not destroyed the other religions and actually ''warned'' people about Chaos ([[Interex\|like some others]]), Chaos would have been less powerful because people would have directed their belief to religions (such as the Abrahamic faiths) or outright have nothing to do with it at all (which is still better than falling to it). If anything, belief and faith grant power in this setting and even [[Ork\|make gods real if they weren't before]], so while [[Interex\|an atheistic approach guarding against Chaos]] could help, at most it would just result in a stalemate; theistic religiosity in the 40k verse not only defends but allows adherents to [[Ynnead\|take the fight to Chaos and provides the only possibility of defeating them]]. Therefore, by abolishing religion (especially purging the theistic ones) [[FAIL\|the Emperor ''helped'' the Chaos Gods]], albeit [[Tzeentch\|unintentionally]], leading to the [[Horus Heresy]] and bringing about his own downfall.

	The ~~story also is about the~~ Emperor'~~s adamant refusal~~ to ~~accept that extremists are extremists, whether religious or secular. The extremists who might have become religious extremists~~ instead ~~become secular extremists thanks to his own secularization~~ of the ~~galaxy~~ and ~~this comes back~~ to ~~bite humanity horribly for the next ten thousand years~~. ~~By ridding Mankind of its previous religions or even any evidence of them~~, the ~~galactic soil has been toiled and fertile for~~ a ~~new religion to spread; one with absolute extremist control~~ of the ~~entire of humanity~~. ~~The Emperor himself~~ was ~~prepared~~ to ~~do whatever~~ it ~~took for his beliefs~~ because ~~it appeared~~ to ~~him that he was undeniably correct - just like extremists; and even though in~~ the ~~universe of 40k~~ the Emperor ~~may be right, He also cannot help but~~ be a ~~hypocrite here no matter how justified He may be~~.		The Emperor may have been tens of thousands of years old, vastly intelligent and unbelievably powerful, but even he could not predict everything. Perhaps that was his greatest failing: he attempted to ''predict'' how to defeat Chaos instead of applying the scientific method. From his words throughout 40k it is clear he saw Warpcraft and science as completely separate and distinct fields. Had he applied the scientific method to studying Chaos, he would have learned about what drove Chaos's strengths and combated it with faith. As with most genii, he outsmarted himself. Naturally trying to understand the Warp scientifically is impossible, but that's its ''behavior'' not its ''nature''; nothing stopped him from studying its nature in order to get a good enough concept of what it feeds on. The Inquisition did exactly that which is how they got so good at fighting Chaos in the first place. Even so, his reaction to anything but blind obedience was "kill them with fire." When you're claiming there must be no religion and kill anyone who wants a reason to believe your claim that religion is bad, you set yourself up for self-destruction at best. Murdering countless worlds while claiming it's because religious people are violent really just gets people to think "then what the fuck are you!?" In short, the Emperor turns out to be a high-functioning psychopath. There's a reason religion exploded shortly after the Emperor's internment into the Golden Throne.

	The Emperor may have been tens of thousands of years old, vastly intelligent and unbelievably powerful, but even He could not predict everything try as He might; to which He admits in Master of Mankind. Perhaps that was His greatest failing: he attempted to impose how He saw and knew the world without providing His own people with the full context and scope of knowledge He possessed to make them understand. And that by doing so; only strengthened the very force He opposed. His reaction to anything but blind obedience was "kill them with fire." When you're claiming there must be no religion and kill anyone who wants a reason to believe your claim that religion is bad, you set yourself up for self-destruction at best. Murdering countless worlds while claiming it's because religious people are violent really just gets people to think "then what the fuck are you!?" In short, the Emperor turns out to be a high-functioning psychopath. There's a reason religion exploded shortly after the Emperor's internment into the Golden Throne; because they were offered no other alternative when confronted with a Hell they were told did not exist with no explanation.		===Alternative view===

	~~Uriah acts as~~ the ~~audience~~'~~s viewpoint for Humanity; that Mankind has always been hardwired~~ to ~~stumble and fall and~~ to ~~reach for~~ the ~~unreachable. He stands in stark contrast~~ to ~~the Emperor who is~~ not only ~~perfect but nigh all-knowing~~. The Emperor ~~expects Mankind to follow~~ in ~~His footsteps without showing us either how or why~~; and ~~we like Uriah~~, ~~fall tragically short of His impossible standard~~. It'~~s easy~~ to be ~~an atheist when you have 40~~,~~000+ years of life experience~~ and ~~knowledge~~ and ~~unlimited power~~ to ~~grasp~~ the ~~finer concepts and merits~~ of ~~theology~~ and ~~secularism; for your regular man~~, it ~~requires nuance~~ and ~~often intense education~~ to ~~be able to look past the instinct to believe~~ in the ~~unbelievable~~. ~~Uriah shows us that almost always,~~ the ~~Emperor consistently forgets that we, His people, are human~~ and that ~~there~~ is ~~a vast gulf between us and Him~~.		Consider, though: The Emperor knew about the Chaos Gods (even if he didn't refer to them as such), since he talked to Horus about them, who then passed it on the Garviel Loken to soothe his mind (not strictly true Horus and Loken only learned about Daemons and Loken is totally mystified when an Interex soldier explains the nature of Chaos/Kaos to him). The Emperor also might have had an inkling that it wasn't just belief that powered them (in actuality, they solely feed on emotion; worship and belief are vectors to reality but not even slightly needed or empowering for them), what with him being in such close contact with the Warp 24/7. This raises the question: was he, in fact, out-Just As Planning Tzeentch and (as [[Erebus]]' false(?) memories showed Horus) ''allowed'' the Primarchs to be taken just so the Horus Heresy would happen, teleport to Horus' Battle-Barge and kill his son while being mortally wounded himself, and have himself installed on the Golden Throne? In other words... did the Emperor plan to be worshiped all along? Probably not, but it makes you think. This idea might actually have some merit judging by how the Emperor didn't seem so disbelieving of his divinity when chatting with Guilliman after his son's return from stasis. Given he planned for Magnus to take his place on the Golden Throne and how Sanguinius was basically an even better Emperor than the Emperor, it seems likely that he have every intention of arranging them as such and perhaps sacrificing himself in someway to become humanity's "god" in the Warp. He's the sci-fi version of Warhammer Fantasy's Sigmar and that is basically what Sigmar did, so it would make sense if you add Grimdark.

	===Author's Opinion===		===Author's Opinion===

121.44.94.71: /* Moral */

2022-12-07T15:47:39Z

Moral

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:47, 7 December 2022
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	The Emperor may have been tens of thousands of years old, vastly intelligent and unbelievably powerful, but even He could not predict everything try as He might; to which He admits in Master of Mankind. Perhaps that was His greatest failing: he attempted to impose how He saw and knew the world without providing His own people with the full context and scope of knowledge He possessed to make them understand. And that by doing so; only strengthened the very force He opposed. His reaction to anything but blind obedience was "kill them with fire." When you're claiming there must be no religion and kill anyone who wants a reason to believe your claim that religion is bad, you set yourself up for self-destruction at best. Murdering countless worlds while claiming it's because religious people are violent really just gets people to think "then what the fuck are you!?" In short, the Emperor turns out to be a high-functioning psychopath. There's a reason religion exploded shortly after the Emperor's internment into the Golden Throne; because they were offered no other alternative when confronted with a Hell they were told did not exist with no explanation.		The Emperor may have been tens of thousands of years old, vastly intelligent and unbelievably powerful, but even He could not predict everything try as He might; to which He admits in Master of Mankind. Perhaps that was His greatest failing: he attempted to impose how He saw and knew the world without providing His own people with the full context and scope of knowledge He possessed to make them understand. And that by doing so; only strengthened the very force He opposed. His reaction to anything but blind obedience was "kill them with fire." When you're claiming there must be no religion and kill anyone who wants a reason to believe your claim that religion is bad, you set yourself up for self-destruction at best. Murdering countless worlds while claiming it's because religious people are violent really just gets people to think "then what the fuck are you!?" In short, the Emperor turns out to be a high-functioning psychopath. There's a reason religion exploded shortly after the Emperor's internment into the Golden Throne; because they were offered no other alternative when confronted with a Hell they were told did not exist with no explanation.

	Uriah acts as the audience's viewpoint for Humanity; that Mankind has always been hardwired to stumble and fall and to reach for the unreachable. He stands in stark contrast to the Emperor who is not only perfect but nigh all-knowing. The Emperor expects Mankind to follow in His footsteps without showing us either how or why; and we like Uriah, fall tragically short of His impossible standard. It's easy to be an atheist when you have 40,000+ years of life experience and knowledge and unlimited power to grasp the finer concepts and merits of theology and secularism; for your regular man, it requires nuance and often intense education to be able to look past the instinct to believe in the unbelievable.		Uriah acts as the audience's viewpoint for Humanity; that Mankind has always been hardwired to stumble and fall and to reach for the unreachable. He stands in stark contrast to the Emperor who is not only perfect but nigh all-knowing. The Emperor expects Mankind to follow in His footsteps without showing us either how or why; and we like Uriah, fall tragically short of His impossible standard. It's easy to be an atheist when you have 40,000+ years of life experience and knowledge and unlimited power to grasp the finer concepts and merits of theology and secularism; for your regular man, it requires nuance and often intense education to be able to look past the instinct to believe in the unbelievable. Uriah shows us that almost always, the Emperor consistently forgets that we, His people, are human and that there is a vast gulf between us and Him.

	===Author's Opinion===		===Author's Opinion===

121.44.94.71: /* Moral */

2022-12-07T15:42:51Z

Moral

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:42, 7 December 2022
Line 18:		Line 18:
	==Moral==		==Moral==

	The moral of ~~the~~ story ~~is a lot more complicated and relevant than most would think. The Emperor is a well-intentioned extremist fighting against four monstrously powerful daemonic gods and trying~~ to ~~starve them out by spreading the Imperial Truth. He made mistakes, yes, but his intentions were pure (sort of~~; ~~his methods weren’t at all necessary, merely easier than worrying about people calling him out on immoral acts, as proven when his ultimate rebuttal to Uriah calling him out~~ was to ~~eliminate him)~~. ~~[[Tolkien\|Ah, but good intentions matter not. Only good deeds]]. In~~ this ~~he had the stereotypical view towards religion that some atheists~~ have~~: that it is~~ the ~~cause of most of humanity's problems including much of the killing and/or all the wars in human history~~. ~~This ignores any and everything else~~ that was ~~a factor in said problems/wars,~~ the ~~good various religions have inspired as well as the fact that those same negative behaviors and actions are also found in non-religious people and '''other''' modes~~ of ~~thought (such as his own) also cause untold suffering~~. ~~It also ignores~~ the fact that any time extremists act on their religion, their beliefs are almost always directly contradictory to their religion (any successful religion teaches tolerance to an extent, to avoid constant fighting within and without; ~~extremists are anything but). So if anything, the Emperor should have made religions enforce their own teachings~~.		The moral of this story was that there wasn't supposed to be one; it was supposed to be thought-provoking on the part of the author. That anyone who takes anything away from this seriously tends to have a problem with how atheistic the Emperor comes across. He was supposed to come across as an arrogant pompous tyrant; that was the point of His perspective. That however does not detract from the fact that He was also right; it just makes it unpalatable.

	The ~~story also~~ is ~~about~~ the ~~Emperor's adamant refusal to accept that extremists are extremists, whether religious or secular~~. The ~~extremists who might have become religious extremists instead become secular extremists thanks~~ to ~~his own secularization of his Imperium and this comes back~~ to ~~bite~~ humanity ~~horribly~~ for the ~~next ten thousand years~~. ~~The Emperor himself was prepared to do whatever it took for~~ his ~~beliefs because it appeared to~~ him ~~that he was undeniably correct - just like extremists. The moral is that any reason based~~ on ~~rejection is~~ immoral ~~reason: case in point~~, ~~the Emperor-led Imperium purged so much and so often that its sheer scale of atrocity~~ was ~~part of the traitor Primarchs’ motivation~~ to ~~rebel~~.		The Emperor is a well-intentioned secular extremist fighting against four monstrously powerful daemonic entities and trying to curb their reach by spreading the Imperial Truth. The point of the Imperial Truth is not to starve Chaos, but to limit/curb humanity's instinct to reach out for succour and thus be susceptible to the whispers that answer back. He made mistakes, yes, but his intentions were pure (sort of; his methods weren’t at all necessary, merely easier than worrying about people calling him out on immoral acts, as proven when his ultimate rebuttal to Uriah calling him out was to eliminate him).

	He ~~was also under~~ the ~~belief~~ that ~~it was faith in general~~ that ~~makes~~ the ~~Chaos Gods stronger~~ and ~~the [[Imperial Truth]] was an attempt~~ to ~~stop them~~. ~~What~~ the Emperor ~~failed to understand was~~ that ~~the Chaos Gods were powered not only by faith, but by emotions as well as aspects~~ of reality ~~itself such as change (which also means wiping out all life probably would fail~~ to ~~destroy Chaos)~~. ~~It has been argued~~ that ~~if the Emperor had~~ not ~~destroyed~~ the ~~other religions~~ and ~~actually ''warned'' people about Chaos ([[Interex\|like some others]])~~, ~~Chaos would have been less powerful because people would have directed their belief~~ to ~~religions (such as~~ the ~~Abrahamic faiths) or outright have nothing~~ to ~~do with it at all (which~~ is ~~still better than falling~~ to it). If anything, belief and faith grant power in this setting and even [[Ork\|make gods real if they weren't before]], so while [[Interex\|an atheistic approach guarding against Chaos]] could help, at most it would just result in a stalemate; ~~theistic religiosity~~ in the ~~40k verse not only defends but allows adherents to [[Ynnead\|take~~ the ~~fight to Chaos~~ and ~~provides the only possibility~~ of ~~defeating them]]. Therefore, by abolishing religion~~ (~~especially purging~~ the ~~theistic ones~~) ~~[[FAIL\|the Emperor~~ '~~'helped'' the~~ Chaos ~~Gods]], albeit [[Tzeentch\|unintentionally]], leading~~ to ~~the [[Horus Heresy]] and bringing about his own downfall~~.		In this, He had the stereotypical view towards religion that some atheists have: that humanity has a proclivity for leaning on explaining the inexplicable away with make-believe and that eventually it is twisted to darker more nefarious purposes. However, the Emperor focuses on the fact that all of that could be forgiven from religion if it wasn't so dogmatic about refusing to accept any reality bar its own in spite of evidence to the contrary. Of course, it is rightfully countered that religion is not the sole cause of this type of errant and destructive thinking/behaviour from Mankind and it dismisses any comfort, real or imagined, that religion brings to the uneducated and simple-minded masses. That to remove that crutch without offering a replacement is doomed to fail as Mankind is hardwired to seek meaning where none evidently exists; thus ignoring the inherent flaw in the Imperial Truth: that without religion; the less fortunate and educated of Mankind (aka the bulk) continues to seek answers to questions that can't be answered and that Chaos is all too willing to answer.

	The Emperor ~~may have been tens of thousands of years old~~, ~~vastly intelligent and unbelievably powerful, but even he could not predict everything~~. ~~Perhaps that was~~ his ~~greatest failing: he attempted to ''predict'' how to defeat Chaos instead~~ of ~~applying~~ the ~~scientific method. From his words throughout 40k it is clear he saw Warpcraft~~ and ~~science as completely separate and distinct fields~~. ~~Had he applied~~ the ~~scientific method~~ to ~~studying Chaos, he would have learned about what drove Chaos's strengths and combated it~~ with ~~faith~~. ~~As with most genii, he outsmarted~~ himself~~. Naturally trying~~ to ~~understand the Warp scientifically is impossible, but that's its ''behavior'' not its ''nature''; nothing stopped him from studying its nature in order to get a good enough concept of what~~ it ~~feeds on. The Inquisition did exactly that which is how they got so good at fighting Chaos in the first place. Even so,~~ his ~~reaction~~ to ~~anything but blind obedience~~ was ~~"kill them with fire." When you're claiming there must be no religion and kill anyone who wants a reason to believe your claim that religion is bad, you set yourself up for self~~-~~destruction at best. Murdering countless worlds while claiming it's because religious people are violent really~~ just ~~gets people to think "then what~~ the ~~fuck are you!?" In short,~~ the Emperor ~~turns out to~~ be a ~~high-functioning psychopath. There's a reason religion exploded shortly after the Emperor's internment into the Golden Throne~~.		The story also is about the Emperor's adamant refusal to accept that extremists are extremists, whether religious or secular. The extremists who might have become religious extremists instead become secular extremists thanks to his own secularization of the galaxy and this comes back to bite humanity horribly for the next ten thousand years. By ridding Mankind of its previous religions or even any evidence of them, the galactic soil has been toiled and fertile for a new religion to spread; one with absolute extremist control of the entire of humanity. The Emperor himself was prepared to do whatever it took for his beliefs because it appeared to him that he was undeniably correct - just like extremists; and even though in the universe of 40k the Emperor may be right, He also cannot help but be a hypocrite here no matter how justified He may be.

	~~===Alternative view===~~		The Emperor may have been tens of thousands of years old, vastly intelligent and unbelievably powerful, but even He could not predict everything try as He might; to which He admits in Master of Mankind. Perhaps that was His greatest failing: he attempted to impose how He saw and knew the world without providing His own people with the full context and scope of knowledge He possessed to make them understand. And that by doing so; only strengthened the very force He opposed. His reaction to anything but blind obedience was "kill them with fire." When you're claiming there must be no religion and kill anyone who wants a reason to believe your claim that religion is bad, you set yourself up for self-destruction at best. Murdering countless worlds while claiming it's because religious people are violent really just gets people to think "then what the fuck are you!?" In short, the Emperor turns out to be a high-functioning psychopath. There's a reason religion exploded shortly after the Emperor's internment into the Golden Throne; because they were offered no other alternative when confronted with a Hell they were told did not exist with no explanation.

	~~Consider, though: The Emperor knew about~~ the ~~Chaos Gods (even if he didn~~'~~t refer~~ to ~~them as such), since he talked~~ to ~~Horus about them, who then passed it on~~ the ~~Garviel Loken~~ to ~~soothe his mind (~~not ~~strictly true Horus and Loken~~ only ~~learned about Daemons and Loken is totally mystified when an Interex soldier explains the nature of Chaos/Kaos to him)~~. The Emperor ~~also might have had an inkling that it wasn't just belief that powered them (~~in ~~actuality, they solely feed on emotion~~; ~~worship~~ and ~~belief are vectors to reality but not even slightly needed or empowering for them)~~, ~~what with him being in such close contact with the Warp 24/7~~. ~~This raises the question: was he, in fact, out-Just As Planning Tzeentch and (as [[Erebus]]~~' ~~false(?) memories showed Horus) ''allowed'' the Primarchs~~ to be ~~taken just so the Horus Heresy would happen~~, ~~teleport to Horus' Battle-Barge~~ and ~~kill his son while being mortally wounded himself,~~ and ~~have himself installed on the Golden Throne? In other words... did the Emperor plan~~ to ~~be worshiped all along? Probably not, but it makes you think. This idea might actually have some merit judging by how~~ the ~~Emperor didn't seem so disbelieving~~ of ~~his divinity when chatting with Guilliman after his son's return from stasis. Given he planned~~ for ~~Magnus to take his place on the Golden Throne and how Sanguinius was basically an even better Emperor than the Emperor~~, it ~~seems likely that he have every intention of arranging them as such~~ and ~~perhaps sacrificing himself in someway~~ to ~~become humanity's "god"~~ in the ~~Warp. He's the sci-fi version of Warhammer Fantasy's Sigmar and that is basically what Sigmar did, so it would make sense if you add Grimdark~~.		Uriah acts as the audience's viewpoint for Humanity; that Mankind has always been hardwired to stumble and fall and to reach for the unreachable. He stands in stark contrast to the Emperor who is not only perfect but nigh all-knowing. The Emperor expects Mankind to follow in His footsteps without showing us either how or why; and we like Uriah, fall tragically short of His impossible standard. It's easy to be an atheist when you have 40,000+ years of life experience and knowledge and unlimited power to grasp the finer concepts and merits of theology and secularism; for your regular man, it requires nuance and often intense education to be able to look past the instinct to believe in the unbelievable.

	===Author's Opinion===		===Author's Opinion===

121.44.94.71: /* Plot Summary */

2022-12-07T15:01:28Z

Plot Summary

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:01, 7 December 2022
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	==Plot Summary==		==Plot Summary==
	In the titular last church, the very last worshipper and priest on Earth, Uriah Olathaire, is visited by a mysterious figure who tells Uriah to call him "Revelation" when asked for his name. They talk about why the church is the last of its kind, and what happened to all of the faithful who once cherished it so much. "Revelation" argues about all of the harm that religious worship and organizations have inflicted on humanity throughout history (~~despite his examples being blatant lies and~~ the ~~opposite of what really happened in history~~), whilst the priest attempts to refute it. Finally, Revelation reveals himself as the Emperor of Mankind, and more specifically as the being who originally (and unintentionally due to Uriah's experiences during a brief and dramatic encounter between the two during the Unification Wars) inspired the priest to believe in his religion. He then gives the priest a chance to recant his false beliefs and leave; the church will be destroyed, but he does not have to perish as well.		In the titular last church, the very last worshipper and priest on Earth, Uriah Olathaire, is visited by a mysterious figure who tells Uriah to call him "Revelation" when asked for his name. They talk about why the church is the last of its kind, and what happened to all of the faithful who once cherished it so much. "Revelation" argues about all of the harm that religious worship and organizations have inflicted on humanity throughout history (solid truths, wilfully ignored by the religious throughout the ages), whilst the priest attempts to refute it (unsuccessfully). Finally, Revelation reveals himself as the Emperor of Mankind, and more specifically as the being who originally (and unintentionally due to Uriah's experiences during a brief and dramatic encounter between the two during the Unification Wars which is entirely the point the Emperor was trying to make regarding the confirmation bias of the religiously focused and stupid) inspired the priest to believe in his religion. He then gives the priest a chance to recant his false beliefs and leave; the church will be destroyed, but he does not have to perish as well.

	The priest refuses. Instead, he points out the Emperor's hypocrisy in the various things he has done - and in which doing made him no different than the crusaders and fanatics of the past. The Emperor disregards Uriah's words and escorts him outside before his troops start destroying the church. As his church is destroyed, Uriah gives the Emperor one last warning about the folly of his plan before calmly walking back in to the church, preferring to die with it. He prays while he waits for death, crushed beneath the rubble.		The priest refuses. Instead, he points out the Emperor's hypocrisy in the various things he has done - and in which doing made him no different than the crusaders and fanatics of the past. The Emperor disregards Uriah's words (because unlike those men of the past, the Emperor has the wisdom of hard fought knowledge and foresight, to know this is the only true road to take for humanity) and escorts him outside before his troops start destroying the church. As his church is destroyed, Uriah gives the Emperor one last warning about the folly of his plan before calmly walking back in to the church, preferring to die with it. He prays while he waits for death, crushed beneath the rubble.

	The Emperor dismisses him as a lost cause and moves on. As the rain lifts, and the morning sun rises over the smoldering remains of the last church on Terra; inside, a broken clock, prophesied to chime only when the world is at an end, begins to softly ring...		The Emperor dismisses him as a lost cause and moves on. As the rain lifts, and the morning sun rises over the smoldering remains of the last church on Terra; inside, a broken clock, prophesied to chime only when the world is at an end, begins to softly ring...

1d4chan>Gilten at 13:43, 29 August 2022

2022-08-29T13:43:20Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:43, 29 August 2022
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	[[File:The Last Church on Terra.jpg\|200px\|right\|thumb\|THE LAST CURIOUSLY DENOMINATIONAL CHURCH!]]		[[File:The Last Church on Terra.jpg\|200px\|right\|thumb\|THE LAST CURIOUSLY DENOMINATIONAL CHURCH!]]

	{{Topquote\|May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.\|Malcolm Reynolds (Firefly)}}		{{Topquote\|May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.\|Malcolm Reynolds, ''Firefly''}}

	'''The Last Church''' by [[Graham McNeill]] is a short story describing the conversation between an old and lonely priest named Uriah Olathaire of the very last church on Terra (The Church of the Lightning Stone) during the [[Unification Wars]] (where the Emperor banned religion and the worship of gods) and a mysterious character named [[God-Emperor of Mankind\|Revelation]], the story is pretty deep and thought provoking and shows you that you don't need '''XTREME GRIMDARK''' and violence to make a great 40k story (even though the story doesn't take place in the 41st millennium). As well as being the earliest complete story in the 40k canon, the story focuses on morals, religion, atheism and humility and the benefits and costs of each. And also, Uriah is probably running for 'most badass non-augmented human' in the setting at first place. What's more badass than [[Ollanius Pius\| getting killed by Horus]]? Telling the Emperor ''to his face'' why he sucks!		'''The Last Church''' by [[Graham McNeill]] is a short story describing the conversation between an old and lonely priest named Uriah Olathaire of the very last church on Terra (The Church of the Lightning Stone) during the [[Unification Wars]] (where the Emperor banned religion and the worship of gods) and a mysterious character named [[God-Emperor of Mankind\|Revelation]], the story is pretty deep and thought provoking and shows you that you don't need '''XTREME GRIMDARK''' and violence to make a great 40k story (even though the story doesn't take place in the 41st millennium). As well as being the earliest complete story in the 40k canon, the story focuses on morals, religion, atheism and humility and the benefits and costs of each. And also, Uriah is probably running for 'most badass non-augmented human' in the setting at first place. What's more badass than [[Ollanius Pius\| getting killed by Horus]]? Telling the Emperor ''to his face'' why he sucks!

1d4chan>Fussyman at 12:44, 29 August 2022

2022-08-29T12:44:01Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:44, 29 August 2022
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	[[Category:Warhammer 40,000]]		[[Category:Warhammer 40,000]]
			[[Category: Imperial]]

115.70.44.117: /* Moral */

2022-05-13T14:25:48Z

Moral

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:25, 13 May 2022
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	==Moral==		==Moral==

	The moral of the story is a lot more complicated and relevant than most would think. The Emperor is a well-intentioned extremist fighting against four monstrously powerful daemonic gods and trying to starve them out by spreading the Imperial Truth. He made mistakes, yes, but his intentions were pure (sort of; his methods weren’t at all necessary, merely easier than worrying about people calling him out on immoral acts, as proven when his ultimate rebuttal to Uriah calling him out was to eliminate him). [[Tolkien\|Ah, but good intentions matter not. Only good deeds]]. In this he had the stereotypical view towards religion that some atheists have: that it is the cause of most of humanity's problems including much of the killing and/or all the wars in human history. This ignores any and everything else that was a factor in said problems/wars as well as the fact that those same negative behaviors and actions are also found in non-religious people and '''other''' modes of thought (such as his own) also cause untold suffering. It also ignores the fact that any time extremists act on their religion, their beliefs are almost always directly contradictory to their religion (any successful religion teaches tolerance to an extent, to avoid constant fighting within and without; extremists are anything but). So if anything, the Emperor should have made religions enforce their own teachings.		The moral of the story is a lot more complicated and relevant than most would think. The Emperor is a well-intentioned extremist fighting against four monstrously powerful daemonic gods and trying to starve them out by spreading the Imperial Truth. He made mistakes, yes, but his intentions were pure (sort of; his methods weren’t at all necessary, merely easier than worrying about people calling him out on immoral acts, as proven when his ultimate rebuttal to Uriah calling him out was to eliminate him). [[Tolkien\|Ah, but good intentions matter not. Only good deeds]]. In this he had the stereotypical view towards religion that some atheists have: that it is the cause of most of humanity's problems including much of the killing and/or all the wars in human history. This ignores any and everything else that was a factor in said problems/wars, the good various religions have inspired as well as the fact that those same negative behaviors and actions are also found in non-religious people and '''other''' modes of thought (such as his own) also cause untold suffering. It also ignores the fact that any time extremists act on their religion, their beliefs are almost always directly contradictory to their religion (any successful religion teaches tolerance to an extent, to avoid constant fighting within and without; extremists are anything but). So if anything, the Emperor should have made religions enforce their own teachings.

	The story also is about the Emperor's adamant refusal to accept that extremists are extremists, whether religious or secular. The extremists who might have become religious extremists instead become secular extremists thanks to his own secularization of his Imperium and this comes back to bite humanity horribly for the next ten thousand years. The Emperor himself was prepared to do whatever it took for his beliefs because it appeared to him that he was undeniably correct - just like extremists. The moral is that any reason based on rejection is immoral reason: case in point, the Emperor-led Imperium purged so much and so often that its sheer scale of atrocity was part of the traitor Primarchs’ motivation to rebel.		The story also is about the Emperor's adamant refusal to accept that extremists are extremists, whether religious or secular. The extremists who might have become religious extremists instead become secular extremists thanks to his own secularization of his Imperium and this comes back to bite humanity horribly for the next ten thousand years. The Emperor himself was prepared to do whatever it took for his beliefs because it appeared to him that he was undeniably correct - just like extremists. The moral is that any reason based on rejection is immoral reason: case in point, the Emperor-led Imperium purged so much and so often that its sheer scale of atrocity was part of the traitor Primarchs’ motivation to rebel.

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:43, 29 August 2022
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	[[File:The Last Church on Terra.jpg\|200px\|right\|thumb\|THE LAST CURIOUSLY DENOMINATIONAL CHURCH!]]		[[File:The Last Church on Terra.jpg\|200px\|right\|thumb\|THE LAST CURIOUSLY DENOMINATIONAL CHURCH!]]

	{{Topquote\|May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.\|Malcolm Reynolds (Firefly)}}		{{Topquote\|May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.\|Malcolm Reynolds, ''Firefly''}}

	'''The Last Church''' by [[Graham McNeill]] is a short story describing the conversation between an old and lonely priest named Uriah Olathaire of the very last church on Terra (The Church of the Lightning Stone) during the [[Unification Wars]] (where the Emperor banned religion and the worship of gods) and a mysterious character named [[God-Emperor of Mankind\|Revelation]], the story is pretty deep and thought provoking and shows you that you don't need '''XTREME GRIMDARK''' and violence to make a great 40k story (even though the story doesn't take place in the 41st millennium). As well as being the earliest complete story in the 40k canon, the story focuses on morals, religion, atheism and humility and the benefits and costs of each. And also, Uriah is probably running for 'most badass non-augmented human' in the setting at first place. What's more badass than [[Ollanius Pius\| getting killed by Horus]]? Telling the Emperor ''to his face'' why he sucks!		'''The Last Church''' by [[Graham McNeill]] is a short story describing the conversation between an old and lonely priest named Uriah Olathaire of the very last church on Terra (The Church of the Lightning Stone) during the [[Unification Wars]] (where the Emperor banned religion and the worship of gods) and a mysterious character named [[God-Emperor of Mankind\|Revelation]], the story is pretty deep and thought provoking and shows you that you don't need '''XTREME GRIMDARK''' and violence to make a great 40k story (even though the story doesn't take place in the 41st millennium). As well as being the earliest complete story in the 40k canon, the story focuses on morals, religion, atheism and humility and the benefits and costs of each. And also, Uriah is probably running for 'most badass non-augmented human' in the setting at first place. What's more badass than [[Ollanius Pius\| getting killed by Horus]]? Telling the Emperor ''to his face'' why he sucks!